I love that Prof actually pushes his guests to justify their points and offers a lot of his own opinions rather than just rolling over and letting them say whatever they want.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege I really liked the bit where you pushed back on so-called 'unfun' play styles (specifically stealing one's commander in this case).
My favourite edh deck is a pauper child of alara deck. I built it about 12 years ago. It’s actually the most enjoyable deck I own... and it wins ALOT. Grim harvest with spore frog is legitimately insane.
@@jpickens189 There are almost no expensive cards in PDH. Lotus Petal and Rhystic Study are most expensive cards I can think of that actually see play.
@@Paul-Scarecrow1779 There is still some barrier to entry, my one pdh deck is like $160 and is probably like an 8 on the normal edh power scale. The restriction limits power creep but doesn't really stop it.
Uril was the first commander multiple members of my playgroup broke to pieces, in many ways signaling the event horizon of our own EDH arms race. Also the first card we soft-banned; it was the first deck we officially said, "Oh, well, if they're playing Uril, I'm changing decks." Social pressure caused pretty much all the Uril decks to walk back into the mist.
This is a very good episode and I love the communication between the two of you. The thing I like the most about this episode is the "I don't want my fun to stop you from having fun" and I love that this conversation is being had. I'm a person who is having fun when everyone is having fun
Engagement because this is a great topic. I feel there's quite a difference between edh and standard. In my opinion this "drama" of powercreep stems from that unsaid rule of standard/sealed of "win at all costs" instead of edh's rule of "let's have fun at all costs".
I'd agree except when you have 1 guy who plays super super cut throat in your play group and it just sours the taste and game for everyone else trying to do their big splashy game
Playing for fun is great but people should still be trying to win. It's a game and somebody has to win other wise you sit there all night with nothing really happening.
The biggest problem is many people have many different ideas of fun. A friend of mine had a full on Stasis deck for a long time. It was fun for him making that work, but excruciating for me to play against.
@@justinhoudeshell4031 yer so the big splashy plays we do cant just be for spinning wheels but definitely have to advance the game towards winning it's the attitude towards winning and to what cost of other people at the table. So for example most of the rest of us all want to win but want everyone the opportunity to have a chance of playing their big splashy play so we usually try and go for the win around turn 6-7 and if someone is super mana screwed not actively pick on them. The 1 guy I'm talking about wont care take the mana screwed guy out and just never give the guy a chance of getting back into the game
@@rodgerlang884 yer that's exactly what I'm trying to get at and I guess for me it's cool if that guy wants to do it but tall to the others first and then also they are cool with that line of play shoot I wouldnt mind as long as everyone else is
This series has quickly become my favorite series of yours. I love the in-depth conversations you curate, and the variety of different topics you have hit upon so far. Thank you!
I just started playing Commander this year (and Magic entirely) and was introduced by a group of long-term players with pretty impressive collections. It was a bit of a challenge once the beginner phase wore off and they stopped holding back, and I had to invest quite a bit to stay competitive. Luckily, they are pretty cool and are willing to play at lower power for the sake of fun sometimes. Edit: The point is it boils down to communication with who you are playing with and coming to a consensus on what power level you want to play at.
@@SifSehwan exactly. However if you want to proxy these super "OP" cards just to shove them into the deck. Thats a no go from me dawg. However if its a reasonable addition due to $$$$. I have Zero issue with that. But do you really NEED gais cradle? Is growing rite of itlamac (I probably spelt that wrong) not good enough???
I started last year with a pre con and I feel the same. Had to race each week to get the cards and I’m still a behind in deck building and knowing which are good cards! Although EDHrec has been a life saver.
Had a similar experiense. Got into commander back in 2015, and until that point I had only played standard (from 2012). It was a lot of new cards to learn, combos, stacks etc. When that phase was over and I invested in some cards to use for commander I got to have a lot more fun. Mainly because of the playgroup was just so nice to hang around with.
The arms race is out of hand on MTGO. Even with disclaimer *100% Jank, Testing, No Refined Decks* people join with turn 5 kozilek and say “well at least it’s not turn 3 with boots” The extreme power spike now makes it so “casual,” players are running what would be high power level decks two years ago.
i just wanna play my jank foiled out faerie tribal. but i keep getting run over by atraxas and golos and worst of all godo. i am like turn 1 island next guy goes : ancient tomb mox opal , chrome mox sol ring sensei's divining top. that was like what 800$ for taht one turn? XD
Commander has two opposing goals: "Play what your opponents can enjoy" and "Play what you enjoy (which probably involves winning)". The first can only sustain itself within a self-policing repeated group, because it's a classic prisoner's dilemma: playing what you enjoy is always more fun *for you*. At best, a person that is highly empathic (shares in others' fun) and has noncompetitive goals (being creative/splashy/chaotic) can accomplish both simultaneously, but that's dependent on their personality. We can't restrict the format to people with that personality. You can introduce chaotic elements for winning (points system/planechase) to level the playing field somewhat, but someone that wants to win can always optimize for them.
This was such a great conversation. I'm all for people owning and running multiple decks to rotate through during game nights. My big concern is that new players may not have the card selection to do that, at least not effectively. In the pre-Covid times I had a really sweet Marwyn elfball deck that I would bring to game stores expressly to loan new players, so that no matter what the table was doing, they could get in and play at the same level.
Great chat 👌 Good points brought up. As a long time edh player, the “arms race” / new cards is fun and keeps me up to date with new sets / buying singles. Keeps interest in my decks and fun new options so they don’t get boring. Can always put the old cards back in as well. Though I’m on a budget, usually putting in the new good $2 creature that synergies with my strategy. As a Shirei player, finding new 1 power creatures to use is enjoyable. Love using new budget stuff and breaking it. Nothing more satisfying then stomping the LGS guy with a $2000 deck with my $60 Shirei common death loops.
I personally love to sit down and pour over cards for hours to find small improvements for my deck, but I can understand that some people either don't have the time or find the time investment unfun to do the same. I think I picked that habit up back in 3rd edition D&D when there were hundreds of splat books (or potentially thousands if you included 3rd party sources) and building optimized characters was a week long process.
Upgrading decks is a process. Normally after 10 games of playing with your deck, you quickly realize its strengths and weakness, and then you start to make changes. Most of the time it's small changes, optimizing card choice like "let me take out this creature for card draw" that lead up to a better deck expierence
I think that's the main issue. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. With how many products are pushed though in recent years it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up.
The “your fun at my expense” is wrong, is so arbitrary. Everybody gets to make a splashy play and then there is a winner...lol. Basically this idea begs that people play little to no interaction. This I find to be the biggest problem with Casual crowd. Is it really that hard to put some interaction in your deck that stops other players from doing OP plays?
I used to update my decks every time a new set came out, but that became cumbersome. Now I try to evaluate and make only necessary upgrades twice a year. There's only so many slots in my Meren deck - Instead of repeatedly rebuilding a deck, I've just started adding new decks to my collection and are trying to make sure they are distinct from each other. I don't need 5 graveyard themed decks, ya know?
This is maximum brain power. Shiiiiit, I've been working on proxies for cards I actually own just to save trouble on deck swapping. If I need ten Sol Rings, let me just doodle a picture for it.
@@elijahbrewer1820 my buddy has a proxy cube that he made from bulk foils and transparencies. they look amazing in sleeves and I know he spent MONTHS of his time making them. thats just my statement lol
That point about a new player being stomped after being told it was a casual format really hit home for me. My first time ever playing commander I sat down with three of my friends who tought me how to play with my awful Doran toughness deck, and they pulled out Najeela, Atraxa Superfriends, and Brago Stax. I almost quit the format after that. Thank goodness I found a playgroup that is social/casual enough to let me explore my interests and learn and develop without completely stomping me.
Alternatively two of them could be specific partners and the third one could be a companion with the deck building condition that you're playing the other two as commanders
Really great conversation and great conclusions. Commander is like a neighbourhood which has become gentrified. The solution is to find somewhere new to start over . custom rules and innovation by players themselves offers the best chance of this.
Very nice video! I think that one of the most important steps in stopping me from running the arms race was realizing that EDH is not about winning. For example I have a (blue) Braids deck that's not about winning but about having everyone at the table make huge, ridiculous plays. Sure, the deck can win, and it is decently optimized in its own way, but that's not the focus. The focus is having fun and making everyone do crazy stuff, and it's one of the decks I enjoy the most 😁
Personally I have always abided by this creed. Be sure to read the room /game and most importantly just because you have a card/combo or legal target(ie land) does not mean you have to make that play. With great power comes an even greater responsibility. Please remember commander is a social game meant to be fun for all those playing
I kinda disagree. I believe that once the game starts, you should be playing at the best level you can, holding back/giving yourself a handicap is almost a disrespect to your opponent. However, I will actively avoid putting Infinite Combos or Insta-Wins cards in my decks.
@@felipeguidolin1055 I can understand that mindset, personally, I only play like that when playing CEDH and not just casually. I feel like there is a way of holding back that is disrespectful and a way that's not. For example if my friend asks for one more turn and not to finish them off most of the time I will let them and not just go for the kill. Or if the board is just wiped by someone else and someone just rebuilt but are now out of gas and you happen to have another wipe but choose not to play it. I am probably too empathetic for my own good but I also tend to play very casual games that have no incentive to win and are more about the social interaction between the group.
Prof, you nailed it in the head with needing multiple decks. The solution lies in WotC wanting to make a less in the short run to profit more in the long run. Making $20-30 precons of different archetypes with good value year after year gives us the choice to keep good backups that we as players can choose to keep as is or upgrade. The Inalla precon was very underwhelming. So I've dedicated my time to making that jank better. I'm never going to go out of my way to drop it and make new decks that I don't know I may not enjoy. It'll just be wasted money and a frustrating experience. But feed me precons to choose from that aren't overcosted in mana cost, and I'll buy in.
The systems in place to police the format: Rule Zero/Power Levels/The Social Contract. where never universally understood or accepted. Moreover they are insufficient when Commander is the most popular and widely played format especially when it’s now being played more often and through different mediums with strangers.
@@rodgerlang884 yes, exactly and that is a rather a large floor. And that’s when people understand the concept, of the 200 Magic players in my city none have ever heard of these ideas.
@@TobiasBroad i played with a lot of people that told me their deck was "mid" in terms of power sometimes it was lesss but most of the times it was some turbo combo win turn 4 deck. which really doesnt belong in "mid" but thats the problem. EDH isnt curated properly.
From 23:56-25:47 Dave Kosin makes a point that can be vallid in some cases that directly giving new players acces to strong commanders being too forthcomming is not good for new players experience in that they have to go in certain directions to be a good player. To me it seems that he has a good point to make, but I HAVE to ask the question; Has he taught new players to play commander? Because I have, and commanders like Chulane, Korvold or Golos is a perfect example of something that gives a new player a grasp of why sticking to a strategy is good, and a direct path to go. New players to commander does not ususally have the knowledge of what EDHREC is or all of the 20-25 thousand cards in existance. So giving a new player a commander that is very straight-forward in what it does is a very easy entrypoint for new players in my experience. So I respect his idéas of EDH becomming too straightforward or "competitive", but I have to disagree with him that good cards being introduced, that gives a new player an impression of direction being a negative for the format, because if we want new players to stick around, they need a entrypoint that they can grasp and have fun with, without it becomming too complicated. When he talks about playing a daxos and using it as a commander and "doing nothing with it", he is talking on a level of trying to challenge yourself, and that is NOT a good place to introduce a new player to. I thank you Proff for pointing that out, that it is not a problem that a player plays with chulane, if this is what they consider to be fun :)
I think the Arms Race is a great part of the Format. I like the ability to keep looking for cards and searching around for the greatest editions of cards. Archaic out of date decks are great too.
plus there are so many ways to copy/steal/use other players cards now. using manascape reflector or thespians stage to yoink opposing cabal coffers or cradle is just sweet and lets you abuse their effects without spending money xD
I dunno, a single awesome card is fine. Its the total change to a groups meta that proves problematic. My solution has been to build multiple decks and leave them mostly alone once “finished” and pull them out when my buds are playing similarly powered decks.
I always say if you have them play them. As long as your honest with what your deck does at the table. I think every deck tbh should have a way with dealing with a problematic land.
I love tinkering and tuning my decks, if they bring problematic cards there are always cheap options to take care of them, and if anyone brings out anything busted you can turn to the rest of the table and start playing Archenemy.
We had a arms race in our play group this year. Someone in my play group picked up a Tabernacle in January. and Now i have the 5 original power lands - Tabernacle, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Karakas, Library of Alexandria.
@@panga910317 The indestructible god cards are a plague. The fact that they also count as enchantments for decks that want to abuse that mechanic *cough* GHEN *COUGH* is frustrating to play against to say the least.
@@calenhoover1124 I think this is a great example of the video in action. I just got home from trading in some cards for a secret lair Nylea, and I was feeling so jazzed, then I stumbled on your comment. If I strolled into a card shop and the first interaction is complaining about my new commander, it’s going to really sour the game before it gets off the ground. BTW yes I have a separate CEDH deck specifically for that, so I thought I was being reasonable with a mono green God commander, but I guess I’m the plague.
@@adamkhan1687 @Adam Khan Play your Nylea and don't mind people. It's like there are no answers in the game to get around indestructible : like white exiles your stuff, black makes you sacrifice creatures (when they have enough devotion), blue counters your things. There are enchantements that make your creatures irrelevent like darksteel mutation, frogify, imprisoned in the moon... They even just printed an equipment that deals with indestructible. None of these cards are expensive. If 3 other people don't have an answer for your God, it's a them problem, it's not really yours. :)
I think white fixes a lot of this. Part of the issue is that most edh players that I’ve played with don’t love hate bears, land destruction, resource denial, stax, or running lots of removal. It seems like a case of wanting things both ways. If you want to curb an arms race, leaning more into white’s strengths checks many degenerate strategies. For example, if you choose to run big mana decks, you may need to deal with a static orb or Thalia every now and then. Edh would be much more balanced if the culture around what’s fun shifts to include more of white’s strengths.
Great point on Tevesh Szat, it feels bad to lose your commander. If getting your commander shuffled into your deck is annoying (which was why the tuck rule was changed), having it stolen is outright frustrating.
I have a few decks of varying power levels in order to match the table that I'm playing with. I do however upgrade those decks as new cards come out but his very rarely is a significant boost in power and is often a quality of life change. I do however have one deck that I will not upgrade anymore as it is on the upper level of power for where I feel a casual commander deck can beat. The path to upgrading the deck further is a very clear and obvious one but I refused to take it down that road because it will consistently start winning on Turn 3 and that's not really fun for anybody if they didn't sign up for that kind of game
This entire episode hit home so hard. My local LGS is not open and has always been very optimized or higher powered, and alternative store that people play much more lower powered or gimmicky. That alternative store was open and both those kind of player began to mix, the context of this video was very much a reality for both groups to find their place to play together and enjoy the game.
As an EDH player, having multiple decks is a huge bonus for playgroups as you guys stated. I personally have a Chulane deck which I enjoy playing. It’s budgetish around $150 with no Craterhoof and mainly cards under $5. The nice thing about Chulane is that he is cheap with a lot of power, that allows budget players to compete with higher power level decks that cost a lot more money. Because of Chulane I can play budget with competitive people with $2000+ decks and I still have a chance to win. Cheap powerful cards are a huge help to players like himself. But I also have weaker decks, all the way down to a Stitcher Geralf janky monk-blue zombie tribal that is purely fun and flavour.
I find that the arms race can lead to two different things (My example in both cases will be Jeweled Lotus): 1. People get the cards that others play just because they are good. It's strictly better commander ramp and does something that no other card in magic really does. 2. Players adapt to the arms race in order to negate the need to keep up with stronger cards. If I'm playing a 3 colour deck I probably won't run the Lotus because I feel the need to run Collector Ouphe the more people begin to run the powerful artifact, and boy oh boy is it cheaper.
Great video! The thing I think people miss though with Tevesh is that he encourages you to sacrifice those stolen commanders after stealing them. As such, anyone playing him that doesn’t want to be a (insert bad word) has a reason (draw 3 cards) to do so. I think to be fair to Wizards, they designed the card with that in mind.
I like the point on, "just have more decks." Not all your decks have to be the best. I'm currently rotating through 14 different decks in my play group. Therefore my decks power levels range in; does one specific thing to win, to just a fun themed deck I through together with cards already in my collection. Magic is a game of deck building, and you can do whatever you want with it.
I think a healthy way to look at the game is coming to the session ready to lose 75% of the time. Some days that means no wins some days you'll get 3 wins. But if 4 people split the wins you should only expect around the average.
i'd say my signature deck is my atraxa superfriends, but I still have a lot of fun playing with my hydra tribal or with my gishath one. I always try to match my dexk powerlevel with the table i'm going to play with, That's where the fun comes from.
Well articulated arguments. I guess the core solution is speaking with your friends. Just like how keeping your emotions inside is bad for you. It’s damaging to have the pressure to keep up with optimized decks
I replied to another comment down here, but thought I should say it here. Domini Metzger had a great point about the time aspect the arms race brings to Commander. I think that's one of the main and unspoken issues here. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. But especially in the last 4 years or so it feels like with how many products and overpowered cards are pushed in our faces, it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up. This isn't standard or extended, I didn't abandon those formats back in 2012 or 2013 to face the issue of rotation and the costs of it now. I know I don't usually run into this issue as much now that I'm more seasoned and can ignore the itchy feeling in my wallet to buy the better version of some cards, but I know it turns ppl off when they feel like they have to buy $35-$80 cards to keep up every 2 or 3 months.
okay, good chat, lots of good important things, but there's a few big things I think was completely left out of this conversation that needs to be addressed by the community: People not fortunate enough to have playgroups, miscommunications in our language as they relate to rule 0, and the homogenization of "casual magic" into a single format that was never intended for that purpose. I've left plenty of long comments on these and other things that I personally feel need to be addressed more in these very comments on your channel, but I think I'm going to finally have to write an open letter about these issues, and this video has helped me greatly form those ideas into more sharable thoughts. so thanks.
I like what the Professor said. I have a ton of decks, almost 40 now. I now have a Chulane deck, I have a Urza deck, and I have a Korvold deck. Most of the people I play with, also have multiple decks. When I go play commander, I try and bring as many decks as I can. I would brink all of them if I could, but usually I can't (weight restrictions when flying). I usually let the table pick the deck I will play with unless I want to try out something specific, such as a new deck or a tweak I made. I think that's fun. I even let other people use my decks if they want. One guy got to use my Urza deck for example and won the game, cause its Urza. I don't have any hard feelings about that. We just shuffle up and I play another game, with a different deck. There are people in our playgroup that are very casual. They maybe have 2 or 3 decks to play with. They don't upgrade them, one guy even has a precon he will play with. Those guys don't seem to have the motivation to win. They even say, "I'm happy with 2nd place". They are the players who just enjoy the game and it usually is fine for them since its a multiplayer game. They can get away with grinding along while the rest of us duke it out.
Jumping on the Monopoly example... Playing a fully optimized deck vs a precon is like starting a game with all Baltic Avenue already owned. Everyone else is fighting over scraps while you are already making hotels. The other players won't have fun if they know defeat is inevitable, and they will be less likely to want to play again. Keeping everyone at the same power level, however high or low it may be, keeps games more "fair" for everyone.
This guy knows what he is talking about, imho a lot of the issues we face can be fixed by proxying, most places where I play allow it. People will proxy lands fetches or not, tutors and other inaccessible/prohibitively expensive cards. I am OK with that, because I want to have more people to play with at any power level. The only reason we have some kids playing the game is because we allow them to proxy some cards, you can't just paywall people.
And this is why I moved more towards the Block and Brawl formats. I don't have to worry about "keeping up", I make the deck after all the sets for that block/rotation are released and I never have to touch the deck again, and I can still get fun matches in. I still have Commander decks, but I am keeping that number to a minimum.
cool to hear Dave started on SWCCG! I started with MTG, but got heavily into SWCCG when it was out. Also love the take about not winning ever. lol i sit down to play commander and my main goal is to make the game go as long as possible. ahh good times. gonna play my circle of protection deck over skype this weekend...
Prof, I'm so happy to hear about your Basic Lands matching the Plane of your commander! I do a similar thing where I have a process to determine which basics to use in my decks (mine are more art / style based but still)!
We just pile all our decks on the table, assign them numbers, then roll a die (or some other form of RNG) and play the decks we "rolled". This also means we often play with decks that are not ours and we don't have as much saltiness regarding who runs what. If the majority of the group agrees a certain deck is not fun, we remove it from the pool. We are having more fun than before and I recommend this way of playing.
Ngl a triple partner Legendary Sen Triplets sounds really fun. One's white, one's blue and one's black they all interact with each other some way. Nice thinking Prof
I am changing all the cards in my Commander deck to cards with the old card frame because I think they look nicer. I'm aware that it will maybe decrease the power level of my deck but I like the challange to get it to do what it is supposed to do ^^
My friends and I have made an active effort to do the exact opposite. Our commander decks have been in an arms race for years now, and we're at the point where our average deck is over $1,000 just to remain competitive in the type of environment that's been cultivated by that arms race. So my last deck I put together was an Ayula, Queen Among Bears mono green bear tribal deck. And each of us are now looking at the "unofficial commander tier list" and putting together decks from the bottom 2 tiers of commanders. My Ayula deck was only a few hundred dollars, and it has neither a craterhoof nor a gaea's cradle in a mono green deck, and I can say frankly I don't miss having cards like that in the discussion almost every single game.
though for the play to win point he made, i feel it's not a very positive mindstate to have when you are playing a game as it distracts from the enjoyment of the playing of the game itself. There is nothing wrong with going for a win but I feel it almost defeats the purpose of any game which is enjoying the game itself.
Something my playgroup liked doing when we could still play in person was laying all our decks out in a grid, and rolling to determine who played what. It has this chaos draft sort of energy that just made stuff fun even when my Arcum Dagsson deck dunks on everyone else in turn 8.
I think it is pretty simple. You choose which cards to use, and you play in a four player format. Know your audience. If they don't want to play against specific strategies, then respect that. Same goes for you. You don't have to be forced to play in any circle.
Please, do define what fun is. If you play your mono white Daxos deck with no win conditions, in even a moderately strong table, what do you achieve? What is your goal? are you playing a kingmaker? Are your the one with the boardwipes and this makes you happy, or are the one who minds his own business and does nothing in particular. Is winning at all important for you. Do you feel bad when you lose and as the prof said, who is to blame then when you on purpose chose it?
Some things were never made "specifically" to be competitive. Such as EDH. My understanding is EDH was created by pro players in-between competitive matches just to have fun. I believe it's foundation should stay in the realm of let's just have fun. Build a deck that expresses you.
Really weird to hear the prof say he finds it problematic for someone to run a card that hoses a specific tech of another player they regularly play against. That’s kinda the whole fun of an arms race within a play group. I play Thraximundar, I’m expecting one of my opponents to run a Sigarda, if their deck allows for it, to counter me. And I make sure to run non-sacrifice based removal in my deck just in case. An arms race can be quite fun in a group’s meta. It keeps it evolving. It doesn’t always have to mean spending more, just building differently to keep everyone’s power level at the table in check.
I fully agree with your take at 33:23, I have multiple decks and some of them are definitely above the usual powerlevel of my group (and some are below that) but they know exactly what all my decks do, I showed them the interaction points and I rotate decks every game so I get to play with these decks once in a while and they don't mind it because they don't see it every time we meet so it's always kinda fresh and exciting. We also have been playing together for probably over 10 years now and all grew as players over that time and actually don't really mind anything anymore, we just wanna grab some random deck and play some games.
A good rule we apply to our play group is the one and done rule, we allow all decks, but if you know you deck is either not fun to play against or can win very quickly, we allow you to play it once and win and then your done. It feels good to play a powerful deck, but just play it once, get your kicks and switch decks. Unless everyone says hey, Im playing my most powerful and your playing your most powerful keep going.
Also, they just need to branch out on more of things, more creatures of a curtain type, more evolve cards, more encore cards. I still fill if you want to build a werewolf deck, its mostly going to be the same as every other werewolf deck. Vampire and zombies have a shit ton, but not other creature types or ability types.
I started EDH in a tight group that encouraged creativity mainly by discouraging good stuffs i.e. tutor bans. That group fell apart due to expanding the group and including people of a different mind set. Since then I have played in the wild mainly at lgs. I tried promoting old school EDH (pre-mirrodin) but realized people want to play with new shiny toys. Having an optimized mana base is fine and usually makes games less clunky in early turns, having good stuffs is fine and kinda necessary in order to compete in average mettas. What I try to encourage as an elder dragon is a flavor race. I personally still ban tutors, I don't play op generals and try not to cast my general regardless, but my biggest flavor push is to not build optimally. If you can predict the outcome before playing based on the generals and then that outcome becomes true, well you just played a boring game. To not be predictable is easily attained by removing the usual wincons, if something is overplayed (hoof), if it elicits groans (lattice), if it's too easy (combo), if it becomes sollitare (extra turns), just remove it. I find the longer people have played the more likely they are to agree with these principles. Newer players have less of a base to compare this too because they haven't seen hoof end games. They don't want to pull cards because they don't have a wide collection to sub them with. And they don't get that combo is easy because they havn't seen it enough to have an opinion formed by it.The RC has done a poor job conveying what casual is as well. Hardly any of the people I play with know who Sheldon is or what rule 0 is. To make it worse wotc is catering to spikes whom are now flooding casual tables. Be the change you desire to see in EDH. My hope is that other people start a flavor race too.
I agree that my fun should never come at the expense of someone else. If my deck gets to do what my deck is supposed to do then win or lose I have fun. If one of my opponents wants to play stax I will leave the table. I also have 20 decks now at varying power levels and never play the same deck twice in a row. I'm constantly upgrading and downgrading and changing my decks to keep things fun.
To be fair to Obliette, its not the only thing like it. Before i heard of that card and it was reprinted, i ran Darksteel Mutation and Imprison in the Moon, for the same kind of effect. They're commander removal that gets around the "just put it back in the command zone" thing. But whats more balanced about those cards is you can answer them. Enchament removal will then bring your commander right back to the battlefield. I personally like them.
I run mass land destruction on Obosh. I didn't tell the playgroup and they were impressed that I killed everyone from Dingus Egg damage using Decree of Annihilion.
Agree strongly. Multiple decks (in my opinion) is the killer of arms racing. I let my playgroup borrow some of my own decks but I've been very adamant about people playing mulitple decks because it makes you build a better deck. If you have to constantly shift decks you understand what makes your own deck work or why XYZ is good. But most importantly is stops the salt from someone's favorite deck getting roflstomped because it's not actually that good.
This is why we need better answers printed and not just threats and combo pieces. More trickbinds and pithing needles. For example: 2 - Swift Needle Flash ETB, counter target triggered or activated ability. An opponent gains control of this. 3, tap: Blink this.
I have a monoblack commander. I intentionally didn't put in any tutor or Necropotence. I just wished people would focus on having fun, and stopped going all in for the win, spending thousands of dollars in cards with minimal optimization, just to have the very best cards.
Everyone in every playgroup should have access to, say for example, Gaea's Cradle if they want to play with the most powerful legal cards. A print out that you cut to fit into a sleeve or even a nice $3 proxy that you buy online. Same goes for Mox Diamond, Volcanic Island etc etc. No one has to spend crazy money on this stuff if everyone, as friends, agrees that proxies are cool and you're all free to print up whatever you want to have fun with
Man that EDH points bit took me back. Me and my friends (still play EDH with them to this day!) came up with pretty much the same idea. Our system definitely promoted degenerate play, but hey, our decks were so jank then that going infinite or 1TKOing someone was super impressive.
I could not agree more with what this Dave guy is saying. I've been playing in a fairly competitive pod of friends, and the "my fun at the expense of your fun" thing really resonates, hard. My main mate I play with started using Pako/Haldin for example, and I used to get majorly salty at it. The answer? Get more cutthroat, counter Arcane signet on turn 3. Run bullshit like Mana Vapors, ect. I think the best answer when playing in a tight pod like ours is have lots, and lots of decks; especially if you're a halfway decent deck builder. Have a lot of decks, and have variety in power level. Have one or two cruel and optimized decks. Have a few good but more silly/fun tribal decks. Have a Chair Tribal deck, you know? I built a really crappy Grumgully, the Generous Pauper EDH, but.. you know what? It's fun to play and I enjoyed building it a lot. Play your Cradles and Mana drains. Sometimes everyone is in the zone and wants to make their opponents sad. Just don't play every single deck on a kitchen table like it's CEDH is my outlook. Thanks for this podcast, I'm glad you did this topic.
People have wanted EDH support, it only natural it would turn into arms race especially being the most dominant format at the moment at least in cardboard.
My playgroup is super competitive and it was kind of refreshing to play in a more social beer and pretzels pod a few weeks ago. I finally played my cats and dog red white deck 🥺
I love the achievment idea and I think you could even do a kickstarter with those achievments printed as cards. I feel a lot of us would be interested.
I love that Prof actually pushes his guests to justify their points and offers a lot of his own opinions rather than just rolling over and letting them say whatever they want.
Would not be much of a discussion if I did not! I like it when they push back on me too.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege The way it should be. excellent debating and discussing.
@@TolarianCommunityCollege I really liked the bit where you pushed back on so-called 'unfun' play styles (specifically stealing one's commander in this case).
Twss.
The Prof will never make it as a major network star!
CAN YOU BELIEVE MY PLAYGROUP IS DOING THIS TO MY POOR DECK
Can you believe they didn't let me cast my infinite combo???
Seto Kaiba spends money to win games. Not to have fun in EDH. Screw the rules I have money!
Finally, we found the man who preordered all the Jeweled Lotuses.
You and Yugi need to just f*ck already.
@@somedudeontheinterwebs45 now Seto Kaiba only have 60%×infinite money
Where is my CCG-based global economy?
You hit it exactly: Playgroup discussion, keep multiple decks and try new things (star magic, planechase etc)
So...really interested in seeing the “Hot Daxos” deck.
Ask Dave if he has a decklist posted!
Here you go! scryfall.com/@mooks311/decks/0ad87dcc-1615-4bb8-bb3e-e0c7fcdd2536
Think its this one: www.coolstuffinc.com/a/davekosin-07172020-whoops-my-commander-deck-is-good
Just pick 99 crap unplayable white cards and you've got the deck. 😂
@@aarononeal201 dude, comments like this are why the magic community is the worst part of this game.
I simply loved this episode. So true in so many points! excellent job, prof!
Glad you enjoyed it!
My solution turned out to be trying out Pauper EDH.
Power creep isn't scary when new staples are one dollar tops.
My favourite edh deck is a pauper child of alara deck. I built it about 12 years ago. It’s actually the most enjoyable deck I own... and it wins ALOT.
Grim harvest with spore frog is legitimately insane.
But old staples are like $30 and don't get enough reprints.
@@jpickens189 There are almost no expensive cards in PDH. Lotus Petal and Rhystic Study are most expensive cards I can think of that actually see play.
@@Paul-Scarecrow1779 There is still some barrier to entry, my one pdh deck is like $160 and is probably like an 8 on the normal edh power scale. The restriction limits power creep but doesn't really stop it.
@@jpickens189
what is your general? can you post a list?
That's the first time I have heard anyone else making sure that the basic lands match the plane for your commander! You rock!
I try to match the theme more than the plane, I have an uril deck with all snow lands because he’s a yeti. 😂
@@N7_Unseen I like that, and love Uril.
Uril was the first commander multiple members of my playgroup broke to pieces, in many ways signaling the event horizon of our own EDH arms race. Also the first card we soft-banned; it was the first deck we officially said, "Oh, well, if they're playing Uril, I'm changing decks." Social pressure caused pretty much all the Uril decks to walk back into the mist.
My Breya deck only plays basics from Mirrodin
@@felipeguidolin1055 nice, good looking lands and a fun block to play
This is a very good episode and I love the communication between the two of you. The thing I like the most about this episode is the "I don't want my fun to stop you from having fun" and I love that this conversation is being had. I'm a person who is having fun when everyone is having fun
Engagement because this is a great topic.
I feel there's quite a difference between edh and standard. In my opinion this "drama" of powercreep stems from that unsaid rule of standard/sealed of "win at all costs" instead of edh's rule of "let's have fun at all costs".
I'd agree except when you have 1 guy who plays super super cut throat in your play group and it just sours the taste and game for everyone else trying to do their big splashy game
Playing for fun is great but people should still be trying to win. It's a game and somebody has to win other wise you sit there all night with nothing really happening.
The biggest problem is many people have many different ideas of fun. A friend of mine had a full on Stasis deck for a long time. It was fun for him making that work, but excruciating for me to play against.
@@justinhoudeshell4031 yer so the big splashy plays we do cant just be for spinning wheels but definitely have to advance the game towards winning it's the attitude towards winning and to what cost of other people at the table. So for example most of the rest of us all want to win but want everyone the opportunity to have a chance of playing their big splashy play so we usually try and go for the win around turn 6-7 and if someone is super mana screwed not actively pick on them. The 1 guy I'm talking about wont care take the mana screwed guy out and just never give the guy a chance of getting back into the game
@@rodgerlang884 yer that's exactly what I'm trying to get at and I guess for me it's cool if that guy wants to do it but tall to the others first and then also they are cool with that line of play shoot I wouldnt mind as long as everyone else is
I am 99% sure this was a video to justify Prof purchasing a Gaea's Cradle.
He works hard, I say let him have it.
i know I'm kinda randomly asking but do anybody know a good place to watch new movies online?
@Abraham Bennett I use Flixzone. Just google for it :)
@Hamza Troy yea, been using Flixzone for years myself =)
@Hamza Troy Thank you, I went there and it seems to work :D I really appreciate it !!
This series has quickly become my favorite series of yours. I love the in-depth conversations you curate, and the variety of different topics you have hit upon so far. Thank you!
I just started playing Commander this year (and Magic entirely) and was introduced by a group of long-term players with pretty impressive collections. It was a bit of a challenge once the beginner phase wore off and they stopped holding back, and I had to invest quite a bit to stay competitive. Luckily, they are pretty cool and are willing to play at lower power for the sake of fun sometimes.
Edit: The point is it boils down to communication with who you are playing with and coming to a consensus on what power level you want to play at.
Bingo
You should ask them, if they are OK with you proxying a few cards. Most people don't really mind as long as you proxy a reasonable amount.
@@SifSehwan exactly. However if you want to proxy these super "OP" cards just to shove them into the deck. Thats a no go from me dawg. However if its a reasonable addition due to $$$$. I have Zero issue with that. But do you really NEED gais cradle? Is growing rite of itlamac (I probably spelt that wrong) not good enough???
I started last year with a pre con and I feel the same. Had to race each week to get the cards and I’m still a behind in deck building and knowing which are good cards! Although EDHrec has been a life saver.
Had a similar experiense. Got into commander back in 2015, and until that point I had only played standard (from 2012). It was a lot of new cards to learn, combos, stacks etc. When that phase was over and I invested in some cards to use for commander I got to have a lot more fun. Mainly because of the playgroup was just so nice to hang around with.
This is a certified hood classic
best comment under a tcc video ever
DAAAAMN SON, where'd you find this?
The arms race is out of hand on MTGO. Even with disclaimer *100% Jank, Testing, No Refined Decks* people join with turn 5 kozilek and say “well at least it’s not turn 3 with boots”
The extreme power spike now makes it so “casual,” players are running what would be high power level decks two years ago.
i just wanna play my jank foiled out faerie tribal. but i keep getting run over by atraxas and golos and worst of all godo. i am like turn 1 island next guy goes : ancient tomb mox opal , chrome mox sol ring sensei's divining top. that was like what 800$ for taht one turn? XD
Commander has two opposing goals: "Play what your opponents can enjoy" and "Play what you enjoy (which probably involves winning)". The first can only sustain itself within a self-policing repeated group, because it's a classic prisoner's dilemma: playing what you enjoy is always more fun *for you*.
At best, a person that is highly empathic (shares in others' fun) and has noncompetitive goals (being creative/splashy/chaotic) can accomplish both simultaneously, but that's dependent on their personality. We can't restrict the format to people with that personality. You can introduce chaotic elements for winning (points system/planechase) to level the playing field somewhat, but someone that wants to win can always optimize for them.
This was such a great conversation. I'm all for people owning and running multiple decks to rotate through during game nights. My big concern is that new players may not have the card selection to do that, at least not effectively.
In the pre-Covid times I had a really sweet Marwyn elfball deck that I would bring to game stores expressly to loan new players, so that no matter what the table was doing, they could get in and play at the same level.
This conversation seems to once again come down to people understanding their decks’ power levels and communicating about them ahead of time.
When i played kitchen table 60 card constructed it was the same. No point in lining up against a championship winning deck with my bundle
Great chat 👌 Good points brought up. As a long time edh player, the “arms race” / new cards is fun and keeps me up to date with new sets / buying singles. Keeps interest in my decks and fun new options so they don’t get boring. Can always put the old cards back in as well. Though I’m on a budget, usually putting in the new good $2 creature that synergies with my strategy. As a Shirei player, finding new 1 power creatures to use is enjoyable. Love using new budget stuff and breaking it. Nothing more satisfying then stomping the LGS guy with a $2000 deck with my $60 Shirei common death loops.
🤣🤣🤣
One of the issues for me isn’t so much the arms race, it’s the time requirement to always upgrade decks.
I personally love to sit down and pour over cards for hours to find small improvements for my deck, but I can understand that some people either don't have the time or find the time investment unfun to do the same. I think I picked that habit up back in 3rd edition D&D when there were hundreds of splat books (or potentially thousands if you included 3rd party sources) and building optimized characters was a week long process.
Upgrading decks is a process.
Normally after 10 games of playing with your deck, you quickly realize its strengths and weakness, and then you start to make changes.
Most of the time it's small changes, optimizing card choice like "let me take out this creature for card draw" that lead up to a better deck expierence
I think that's the main issue. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. With how many products are pushed though in recent years it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up.
The “your fun at my expense” is wrong, is so arbitrary. Everybody gets to make a splashy play and then there is a winner...lol. Basically this idea begs that people play little to no interaction. This I find to be the biggest problem with Casual crowd. Is it really that hard to put some interaction in your deck that stops other players from doing OP plays?
I used to update my decks every time a new set came out, but that became cumbersome. Now I try to evaluate and make only necessary upgrades twice a year. There's only so many slots in my Meren deck - Instead of repeatedly rebuilding a deck, I've just started adding new decks to my collection and are trying to make sure they are distinct from each other. I don't need 5 graveyard themed decks, ya know?
Pay to win? Let me introduce you to my proxy tribal
YAS!
This is maximum brain power. Shiiiiit, I've been working on proxies for cards I actually own just to save trouble on deck swapping. If I need ten Sol Rings, let me just doodle a picture for it.
Proxy is a scourge. If you win using an imaginary card you do not own atleast 1 copy of your win is imaginary therefore doesnt exist.
@@elijahbrewer1820 my buddy has a proxy cube that he made from bulk foils and transparencies. they look amazing in sleeves and I know he spent MONTHS of his time making them. thats just my statement lol
@@A2Jmusic I will not waste my time with the proxy community. They and I shall never mix or agree.
That point about a new player being stomped after being told it was a casual format really hit home for me. My first time ever playing commander I sat down with three of my friends who tought me how to play with my awful Doran toughness deck, and they pulled out Najeela, Atraxa Superfriends, and Brago Stax. I almost quit the format after that. Thank goodness I found a playgroup that is social/casual enough to let me explore my interests and learn and develop without completely stomping me.
43:53 May we please get that Pauper Commander video?
Sen triplets but each one is it’s own card
Gavin: WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN!
Disclaimer: This is a joke
Oh no...😱
Each Triplet has "Partner partner (may be partner with up to two commanders that have Partner partner)".
If the triplets had "Partner with" blank and blank. This would work and I am here for it.
I want that to happen though...just not with the partner mechanic attached.
Alternatively two of them could be specific partners and the third one could be a companion with the deck building condition that you're playing the other two as commanders
The razor blade analogy was hilarious 😂
Agreed, and it was a very good analogy
Really great conversation and great conclusions. Commander is like a neighbourhood which has become gentrified. The solution is to find somewhere new to start over . custom rules and innovation by players themselves offers the best chance of this.
Life gain with no win con. Sounds like a level of hell I don't want to be on.
Players that don't even try to win are disrespectful at best.
Yeah and then he's pissed ppl wanna play good cards
For commander you can balance decks by following what your deck wants to do. Not just focusing on winning fast.
Very nice video! I think that one of the most important steps in stopping me from running the arms race was realizing that EDH is not about winning. For example I have a (blue) Braids deck that's not about winning but about having everyone at the table make huge, ridiculous plays. Sure, the deck can win, and it is decently optimized in its own way, but that's not the focus. The focus is having fun and making everyone do crazy stuff, and it's one of the decks I enjoy the most 😁
I don't even play commander but I'm gonna watch this whole video because this stuff is fascinating. Thanks as always Professor!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I wouldn't suggest that you start playing Commander either. Not worth the headache.
Personally I have always abided by this creed.
Be sure to read the room /game and most importantly just because you have a card/combo or legal target(ie land) does not mean you have to make that play. With great power comes an even greater responsibility. Please remember commander is a social game meant to be fun for all those playing
I kinda disagree. I believe that once the game starts, you should be playing at the best level you can, holding back/giving yourself a handicap is almost a disrespect to your opponent.
However, I will actively avoid putting Infinite Combos or Insta-Wins cards in my decks.
@@felipeguidolin1055 I can understand that mindset, personally, I only play like that when playing CEDH and not just casually. I feel like there is a way of holding back that is disrespectful and a way that's not. For example if my friend asks for one more turn and not to finish them off most of the time I will let them and not just go for the kill. Or if the board is just wiped by someone else and someone just rebuilt but are now out of gas and you happen to have another wipe but choose not to play it. I am probably too empathetic for my own good but I also tend to play very casual games that have no incentive to win and are more about the social interaction between the group.
"The solution isn't to spend $200 on a Commander deck, it's to spend $1400 on seven Commander decks." - The Professor, December 2020.
Prof, you nailed it in the head with needing multiple decks. The solution lies in WotC wanting to make a less in the short run to profit more in the long run. Making $20-30 precons of different archetypes with good value year after year gives us the choice to keep good backups that we as players can choose to keep as is or upgrade.
The Inalla precon was very underwhelming. So I've dedicated my time to making that jank better. I'm never going to go out of my way to drop it and make new decks that I don't know I may not enjoy. It'll just be wasted money and a frustrating experience. But feed me precons to choose from that aren't overcosted in mana cost, and I'll buy in.
At 10:00, when talking about razor blades, what I *heard* Prof say was, “Stick another razor on there, it’s the Mox Seven”
me: Are you gonna ultimate Tevesh?
some evil edh player: yup
me: sweet my commander says Phage
The systems in place to police the format: Rule Zero/Power Levels/The Social Contract. where never universally understood or accepted. Moreover they are insufficient when Commander is the most popular and widely played format especially when it’s now being played more often and through different mediums with strangers.
And everyone really has a different idea of what power level is
@@rodgerlang884 yes, exactly and that is a rather a large floor. And that’s when people understand the concept, of the 200 Magic players in my city none have ever heard of these ideas.
@@TobiasBroad i played with a lot of people that told me their deck was "mid" in terms of power sometimes it was lesss but most of the times it was some turbo combo win turn 4 deck. which really doesnt belong in "mid" but thats the problem. EDH isnt curated properly.
Aquaman called, he wants his pants back.
lmao i was like wtf r those but you totally nailed it
From 23:56-25:47 Dave Kosin makes a point that can be vallid in some cases that directly giving new players acces to strong commanders being too forthcomming is not good for new players experience in that they have to go in certain directions to be a good player. To me it seems that he has a good point to make, but I HAVE to ask the question; Has he taught new players to play commander? Because I have, and commanders like Chulane, Korvold or Golos is a perfect example of something that gives a new player a grasp of why sticking to a strategy is good, and a direct path to go. New players to commander does not ususally have the knowledge of what EDHREC is or all of the 20-25 thousand cards in existance. So giving a new player a commander that is very straight-forward in what it does is a very easy entrypoint for new players in my experience. So I respect his idéas of EDH becomming too straightforward or "competitive", but I have to disagree with him that good cards being introduced, that gives a new player an impression of direction being a negative for the format, because if we want new players to stick around, they need a entrypoint that they can grasp and have fun with, without it becomming too complicated.
When he talks about playing a daxos and using it as a commander and "doing nothing with it", he is talking on a level of trying to challenge yourself, and that is NOT a good place to introduce a new player to.
I thank you Proff for pointing that out, that it is not a problem that a player plays with chulane, if this is what they consider to be fun :)
18:00 it's not as long as everyone has fun, it's more along the lines that everyone agrees and plays with the same expectations.
I think the Arms Race is a great part of the Format. I like the ability to keep looking for cards and searching around for the greatest editions of cards. Archaic out of date decks are great too.
Thanks for the great video, guys! A high note for me was that just after Prof's shaving blade analogy, I got a Gillette ad lol
My first response to "look what I got, gaea's cradle" isn't to recoil, it's to go "hell yeah, that's sick"
plus there are so many ways to copy/steal/use other players cards now. using manascape reflector or thespians stage to yoink opposing cabal coffers or cradle is just sweet and lets you abuse their effects without spending money xD
I dunno, a single awesome card is fine. Its the total change to a groups meta that proves problematic. My solution has been to build multiple decks and leave them mostly alone once “finished” and pull them out when my buds are playing similarly powered decks.
I always say if you have them play them. As long as your honest with what your deck does at the table. I think every deck tbh should have a way with dealing with a problematic land.
So anyways, I cast Ruination.
I love tinkering and tuning my decks, if they bring problematic cards there are always cheap options to take care of them, and if anyone brings out anything busted you can turn to the rest of the table and start playing Archenemy.
We had a arms race in our play group this year. Someone in my play group picked up a Tabernacle in January. and Now i have the 5 original power lands - Tabernacle, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Karakas, Library of Alexandria.
Karakas is banned in Commander though? Unless you're playing a different format.
In our play group we have a rule of "I'm fine with you playing it if you're fine with me blowing it up", it tends to solve most issues.
Until someone starts playing gods as commanders which, unfortunately, are way harder to interact with compared to any other creature.
@@panga910317 The indestructible god cards are a plague. The fact that they also count as enchantments for decks that want to abuse that mechanic *cough* GHEN *COUGH* is frustrating to play against to say the least.
@@calenhoover1124 I think this is a great example of the video in action. I just got home from trading in some cards for a secret lair Nylea, and I was feeling so jazzed, then I stumbled on your comment. If I strolled into a card shop and the first interaction is complaining about my new commander, it’s going to really sour the game before it gets off the ground. BTW yes I have a separate CEDH deck specifically for that, so I thought I was being reasonable with a mono green God commander, but I guess I’m the plague.
@@adamkhan1687 @Adam Khan Play your Nylea and don't mind people. It's like there are no answers in the game to get around indestructible : like white exiles your stuff, black makes you sacrifice creatures (when they have enough devotion), blue counters your things. There are enchantements that make your creatures irrelevent like darksteel mutation, frogify, imprisoned in the moon... They even just printed an equipment that deals with indestructible. None of these cards are expensive. If 3 other people don't have an answer for your God, it's a them problem, it's not really yours. :)
Yeah, in my playgroup indestructible is often funny flavor text. I can't tell you the last time I played against non-exile removal.
I think white fixes a lot of this. Part of the issue is that most edh players that I’ve played with don’t love hate bears, land destruction, resource denial, stax, or running lots of removal. It seems like a case of wanting things both ways. If you want to curb an arms race, leaning more into white’s strengths checks many degenerate strategies. For example, if you choose to run big mana decks, you may need to deal with a static orb or Thalia every now and then. Edh would be much more balanced if the culture around what’s fun shifts to include more of white’s strengths.
Great point on Tevesh Szat, it feels bad to lose your commander. If getting your commander shuffled into your deck is annoying (which was why the tuck rule was changed), having it stolen is outright frustrating.
I have a few decks of varying power levels in order to match the table that I'm playing with. I do however upgrade those decks as new cards come out but his very rarely is a significant boost in power and is often a quality of life change. I do however have one deck that I will not upgrade anymore as it is on the upper level of power for where I feel a casual commander deck can beat. The path to upgrading the deck further is a very clear and obvious one but I refused to take it down that road because it will consistently start winning on Turn 3 and that's not really fun for anybody if they didn't sign up for that kind of game
I have a huge Magic collection dating back 20 plus years and I enjoy trying to find spots for cards that don't see play in other formats.
I'm so glad to hear that someone else matches their basic lands to their Commander! Everyone in my playgroup thinks it's weird that I do that.
I personally like to have my basic lands from all different sets for my 10 edh decks
It's weird for sure, but I think it's cool!
My Breya deck only has basics from Mirrodin
New Phyrexia lands for Infect commanders!
This entire episode hit home so hard. My local LGS is not open and has always been very optimized or higher powered, and alternative store that people play much more lower powered or gimmicky. That alternative store was open and both those kind of player began to mix, the context of this video was very much a reality for both groups to find their place to play together and enjoy the game.
Great video, Prof and Dave. Talking to other players is great. :]
Glad you enjoyed it!
As an EDH player, having multiple decks is a huge bonus for playgroups as you guys stated. I personally have a Chulane deck which I enjoy playing. It’s budgetish around $150 with no Craterhoof and mainly cards under $5. The nice thing about Chulane is that he is cheap with a lot of power, that allows budget players to compete with higher power level decks that cost a lot more money. Because of Chulane I can play budget with competitive people with $2000+ decks and I still have a chance to win. Cheap powerful cards are a huge help to players like himself. But I also have weaker decks, all the way down to a Stitcher Geralf janky monk-blue zombie tribal that is purely fun and flavour.
I find that the arms race can lead to two different things (My example in both cases will be Jeweled Lotus): 1. People get the cards that others play just because they are good. It's strictly better commander ramp and does something that no other card in magic really does. 2. Players adapt to the arms race in order to negate the need to keep up with stronger cards. If I'm playing a 3 colour deck I probably won't run the Lotus because I feel the need to run Collector Ouphe the more people begin to run the powerful artifact, and boy oh boy is it cheaper.
Great video! The thing I think people miss though with Tevesh is that he encourages you to sacrifice those stolen commanders after stealing them. As such, anyone playing him that doesn’t want to be a (insert bad word) has a reason (draw 3 cards) to do so. I think to be fair to Wizards, they designed the card with that in mind.
I like the point on, "just have more decks." Not all your decks have to be the best. I'm currently rotating through 14 different decks in my play group. Therefore my decks power levels range in; does one specific thing to win, to just a fun themed deck I through together with cards already in my collection. Magic is a game of deck building, and you can do whatever you want with it.
I think a healthy way to look at the game is coming to the session ready to lose 75% of the time. Some days that means no wins some days you'll get 3 wins. But if 4 people split the wins you should only expect around the average.
i'd say my signature deck is my atraxa superfriends, but I still have a lot of fun playing with my hydra tribal or with my gishath one. I always try to match my dexk powerlevel with the table i'm going to play with, That's where the fun comes from.
Well articulated arguments. I guess the core solution is speaking with your friends. Just like how keeping your emotions inside is bad for you. It’s damaging to have the pressure to keep up with optimized decks
I replied to another comment down here, but thought I should say it here.
Domini Metzger had a great point about the time aspect the arms race brings to Commander. I think that's one of the main and unspoken issues here. One of the best selling points of Commander is that it's supposed to be a legacy format, you don't need to get a new deck every year or two to keep playing. But especially in the last 4 years or so it feels like with how many products and overpowered cards are pushed in our faces, it makes Commander sometimes feel like oh I have to get a new deck or oh I have to replace half of the cards I have to keep up. This isn't standard or extended, I didn't abandon those formats back in 2012 or 2013 to face the issue of rotation and the costs of it now.
I know I don't usually run into this issue as much now that I'm more seasoned and can ignore the itchy feeling in my wallet to buy the better version of some cards, but I know it turns ppl off when they feel like they have to buy $35-$80 cards to keep up every 2 or 3 months.
okay, good chat, lots of good important things, but there's a few big things I think was completely left out of this conversation that needs to be addressed by the community: People not fortunate enough to have playgroups, miscommunications in our language as they relate to rule 0, and the homogenization of "casual magic" into a single format that was never intended for that purpose. I've left plenty of long comments on these and other things that I personally feel need to be addressed more in these very comments on your channel, but I think I'm going to finally have to write an open letter about these issues, and this video has helped me greatly form those ideas into more sharable thoughts. so thanks.
I like what the Professor said. I have a ton of decks, almost 40 now. I now have a Chulane deck, I have a Urza deck, and I have a Korvold deck. Most of the people I play with, also have multiple decks. When I go play commander, I try and bring as many decks as I can. I would brink all of them if I could, but usually I can't (weight restrictions when flying). I usually let the table pick the deck I will play with unless I want to try out something specific, such as a new deck or a tweak I made. I think that's fun. I even let other people use my decks if they want. One guy got to use my Urza deck for example and won the game, cause its Urza. I don't have any hard feelings about that. We just shuffle up and I play another game, with a different deck.
There are people in our playgroup that are very casual. They maybe have 2 or 3 decks to play with. They don't upgrade them, one guy even has a precon he will play with. Those guys don't seem to have the motivation to win. They even say, "I'm happy with 2nd place". They are the players who just enjoy the game and it usually is fine for them since its a multiplayer game. They can get away with grinding along while the rest of us duke it out.
Jumping on the Monopoly example... Playing a fully optimized deck vs a precon is like starting a game with all Baltic Avenue already owned. Everyone else is fighting over scraps while you are already making hotels. The other players won't have fun if they know defeat is inevitable, and they will be less likely to want to play again. Keeping everyone at the same power level, however high or low it may be, keeps games more "fair" for everyone.
This guy knows what he is talking about, imho a lot of the issues we face can be fixed by proxying, most places where I play allow it. People will proxy lands fetches or not, tutors and other inaccessible/prohibitively expensive cards. I am OK with that, because I want to have more people to play with at any power level.
The only reason we have some kids playing the game is because we allow them to proxy some cards, you can't just paywall people.
7, 8, 9 commander decks. Those are rookie numbers! I'm working on my 39th right now!
And this is why I moved more towards the Block and Brawl formats. I don't have to worry about "keeping up", I make the deck after all the sets for that block/rotation are released and I never have to touch the deck again, and I can still get fun matches in. I still have Commander decks, but I am keeping that number to a minimum.
I know this is cliché however this is a saying for a reason. Communication is key.
cool to hear Dave started on SWCCG! I started with MTG, but got heavily into SWCCG when it was out. Also love the take about not winning ever. lol i sit down to play commander and my main goal is to make the game go as long as possible. ahh good times. gonna play my circle of protection deck over skype this weekend...
THANK YOU PROF! i enjoy videos like this one and was refreshing hoping to find and untitled podcast!
Prof, I'm so happy to hear about your Basic Lands matching the Plane of your commander! I do a similar thing where I have a process to determine which basics to use in my decks (mine are more art / style based but still)!
We just pile all our decks on the table, assign them numbers, then roll a die (or some other form of RNG) and play the decks we "rolled". This also means we often play with decks that are not ours and we don't have as much saltiness regarding who runs what. If the majority of the group agrees a certain deck is not fun, we remove it from the pool. We are having more fun than before and I recommend this way of playing.
Ngl a triple partner Legendary Sen Triplets sounds really fun. One's white, one's blue and one's black they all interact with each other some way. Nice thinking Prof
I am changing all the cards in my Commander deck to cards with the old card frame because I think they look nicer.
I'm aware that it will maybe decrease the power level of my deck but I like the challange to get it to do what it is supposed to do ^^
My friends and I have made an active effort to do the exact opposite. Our commander decks have been in an arms race for years now, and we're at the point where our average deck is over $1,000 just to remain competitive in the type of environment that's been cultivated by that arms race. So my last deck I put together was an Ayula, Queen Among Bears mono green bear tribal deck. And each of us are now looking at the "unofficial commander tier list" and putting together decks from the bottom 2 tiers of commanders. My Ayula deck was only a few hundred dollars, and it has neither a craterhoof nor a gaea's cradle in a mono green deck, and I can say frankly I don't miss having cards like that in the discussion almost every single game.
hearing the professor talk about on theme and artwork includes in his edh was super relatable for me.
though for the play to win point he made, i feel it's not a very positive mindstate to have when you are playing a game as it distracts from the enjoyment of the playing of the game itself. There is nothing wrong with going for a win but I feel it almost defeats the purpose of any game which is enjoying the game itself.
Something my playgroup liked doing when we could still play in person was laying all our decks out in a grid, and rolling to determine who played what. It has this chaos draft sort of energy that just made stuff fun even when my Arcum Dagsson deck dunks on everyone else in turn 8.
cool
I think it is pretty simple. You choose which cards to use, and you play in a four player format. Know your audience. If they don't want to play against specific strategies, then respect that. Same goes for you. You don't have to be forced to play in any circle.
I bought two of my friends each a copy of Mana Drain for their EDH decks. SELF-INFLICTED ARMS RAAAAAACE
Hey everybody there's a self inflicted arms race!
Can I be your friend?
Please, do define what fun is. If you play your mono white Daxos deck with no win conditions, in even a moderately strong table, what do you achieve? What is your goal? are you playing a kingmaker? Are your the one with the boardwipes and this makes you happy, or are the one who minds his own business and does nothing in particular. Is winning at all important for you. Do you feel bad when you lose and as the prof said, who is to blame then when you on purpose chose it?
Dave, that nerf gun dig at the end made me lolololol super hard
Some things were never made "specifically" to be competitive. Such as EDH. My understanding is EDH was created by pro players in-between competitive matches just to have fun. I believe it's foundation should stay in the realm of let's just have fun. Build a deck that expresses you.
Really weird to hear the prof say he finds it problematic for someone to run a card that hoses a specific tech of another player they regularly play against. That’s kinda the whole fun of an arms race within a play group. I play Thraximundar, I’m expecting one of my opponents to run a Sigarda, if their deck allows for it, to counter me. And I make sure to run non-sacrifice based removal in my deck just in case. An arms race can be quite fun in a group’s meta. It keeps it evolving. It doesn’t always have to mean spending more, just building differently to keep everyone’s power level at the table in check.
It all depends on your playgroup. If you find the right one that fits your expectations then there shouldn't be an issue with an arms race.
I fully agree with your take at 33:23, I have multiple decks and some of them are definitely above the usual powerlevel of my group (and some are below that) but they know exactly what all my decks do, I showed them the interaction points and I rotate decks every game so I get to play with these decks once in a while and they don't mind it because they don't see it every time we meet so it's always kinda fresh and exciting.
We also have been playing together for probably over 10 years now and all grew as players over that time and actually don't really mind anything anymore, we just wanna grab some random deck and play some games.
A good rule we apply to our play group is the one and done rule, we allow all decks, but if you know you deck is either not fun to play against or can win very quickly, we allow you to play it once and win and then your done. It feels good to play a powerful deck, but just play it once, get your kicks and switch decks. Unless everyone says hey, Im playing my most powerful and your playing your most powerful keep going.
Also, they just need to branch out on more of things, more creatures of a curtain type, more evolve cards, more encore cards. I still fill if you want to build a werewolf deck, its mostly going to be the same as every other werewolf deck. Vampire and zombies have a shit ton, but not other creature types or ability types.
I started EDH in a tight group that encouraged creativity mainly by discouraging good stuffs i.e. tutor bans. That group fell apart due to expanding the group and including people of a different mind set. Since then I have played in the wild mainly at lgs. I tried promoting old school EDH (pre-mirrodin) but realized people want to play with new shiny toys. Having an optimized mana base is fine and usually makes games less clunky in early turns, having good stuffs is fine and kinda necessary in order to compete in average mettas. What I try to encourage as an elder dragon is a flavor race. I personally still ban tutors, I don't play op generals and try not to cast my general regardless, but my biggest flavor push is to not build optimally. If you can predict the outcome before playing based on the generals and then that outcome becomes true, well you just played a boring game. To not be predictable is easily attained by removing the usual wincons, if something is overplayed (hoof), if it elicits groans (lattice), if it's too easy (combo), if it becomes sollitare (extra turns), just remove it. I find the longer people have played the more likely they are to agree with these principles. Newer players have less of a base to compare this too because they haven't seen hoof end games. They don't want to pull cards because they don't have a wide collection to sub them with. And they don't get that combo is easy because they havn't seen it enough to have an opinion formed by it.The RC has done a poor job conveying what casual is as well. Hardly any of the people I play with know who Sheldon is or what rule 0 is. To make it worse wotc is catering to spikes whom are now flooding casual tables. Be the change you desire to see in EDH. My hope is that other people start a flavor race too.
I agree that my fun should never come at the expense of someone else. If my deck gets to do what my deck is supposed to do then win or lose I have fun. If one of my opponents wants to play stax I will leave the table. I also have 20 decks now at varying power levels and never play the same deck twice in a row. I'm constantly upgrading and downgrading and changing my decks to keep things fun.
To be fair to Obliette, its not the only thing like it. Before i heard of that card and it was reprinted, i ran Darksteel Mutation and Imprison in the Moon, for the same kind of effect. They're commander removal that gets around the "just put it back in the command zone" thing. But whats more balanced about those cards is you can answer them. Enchament removal will then bring your commander right back to the battlefield. I personally like them.
I run mass land destruction on Obosh. I didn't tell the playgroup and they were impressed that I killed everyone from Dingus Egg damage using Decree of Annihilion.
Golden ending
golden earring?
Agree strongly. Multiple decks (in my opinion) is the killer of arms racing.
I let my playgroup borrow some of my own decks but I've been very adamant about people playing mulitple decks because it makes you build a better deck. If you have to constantly shift decks you understand what makes your own deck work or why XYZ is good. But most importantly is stops the salt from someone's favorite deck getting roflstomped because it's not actually that good.
This is why we need better answers printed and not just threats and combo pieces. More trickbinds and pithing needles. For example:
2 - Swift Needle
Flash
ETB, counter target triggered or activated ability. An opponent gains control of this.
3, tap: Blink this.
that sounds absolutely horrible
This sounds so unfun to play against
@@morgl9478 less fun than losing every game early when someone combos off?
I have a monoblack commander. I intentionally didn't put in any tutor or Necropotence. I just wished people would focus on having fun, and stopped going all in for the win, spending thousands of dollars in cards with minimal optimization, just to have the very best cards.
The point system is a really good idea! I recently moved out and I am meeting a new group of player whose meta is not my fun. It's complicated.
Everyone in every playgroup should have access to, say for example, Gaea's Cradle if they want to play with the most powerful legal cards. A print out that you cut to fit into a sleeve or even a nice $3 proxy that you buy online. Same goes for Mox Diamond, Volcanic Island etc etc. No one has to spend crazy money on this stuff if everyone, as friends, agrees that proxies are cool and you're all free to print up whatever you want to have fun with
Like the last episode, there is no problem, just TALK YOUR DAMN PLAYGROUP!
and play interaction!
I dont have a play group. I have to play at the store like once a month. Nobody cares what I want so I have to power up.
@@jeanmarais337 I didn't really cosider that, but yeah that's a problem.
Man that EDH points bit took me back. Me and my friends (still play EDH with them to this day!) came up with pretty much the same idea. Our system definitely promoted degenerate play, but hey, our decks were so jank then that going infinite or 1TKOing someone was super impressive.
I could not agree more with what this Dave guy is saying. I've been playing in a fairly competitive pod of friends, and the "my fun at the expense of your fun" thing really resonates, hard.
My main mate I play with started using Pako/Haldin for example, and I used to get majorly salty at it. The answer? Get more cutthroat, counter Arcane signet on turn 3. Run bullshit like Mana Vapors, ect.
I think the best answer when playing in a tight pod like ours is have lots, and lots of decks; especially if you're a halfway decent deck builder. Have a lot of decks, and have variety in power level. Have one or two cruel and optimized decks. Have a few good but more silly/fun tribal decks. Have a Chair Tribal deck, you know? I built a really crappy Grumgully, the Generous Pauper EDH, but.. you know what? It's fun to play and I enjoyed building it a lot.
Play your Cradles and Mana drains. Sometimes everyone is in the zone and wants to make their opponents sad. Just don't play every single deck on a kitchen table like it's CEDH is my outlook.
Thanks for this podcast, I'm glad you did this topic.
People have wanted EDH support, it only natural it would turn into arms race especially being the most dominant format at the moment at least in cardboard.
My playgroup is super competitive and it was kind of refreshing to play in a more social beer and pretzels pod a few weeks ago. I finally played my cats and dog red white deck 🥺
I love the achievment idea and I think you could even do a kickstarter with those achievments printed as cards. I feel a lot of us would be interested.