Living an intersex life
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- According to statistics cited by the U.N., .05 to 1.7 percent of the world's population is intersex, defined as having external or internal sexual organs that are not clearly male or female. As a matter of course, doctors in the past performed surgery on babies, ostensibly so that they would live a "normal" life. Correspondent Erin Moriarty talks with Pidgeon Pagonis (who was born looking female on the outside but also with testes and XY chromosomes) about Pagonis' memoir, "Nobody Needs to Know"; with professor Elizabeth Reis, author of "Bodies in Doubt: An American History of Intersex"; and with urologist Dr. Ilene Wong, who believes the medical community has failed intersex patients.
@pidgepagonis #intersex
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Much gratitude for all those brave humans speaking up and advocating! This is a long overdue conversation!
😢and the human being rights are still happening 😭 todai thanks to the ultra rights violent of our minds and bodys todai thanks for getting these human being s rights 😢out 😭 todai to the public 😢
We just need to see each other as humans, all of us with compassion and cooperation. PERIOD.
100% THIS
Please let intersex people just be themselves.
There was a 20-something intersex person in my neighborhood when I was growing up in the 1970s. They were born in the mid or late 1950s.
Their parents were told, "You're so lucky! You can choose the gender of your baby!" The parents were told it's all nurture over nature, so they could simply choose.
Dad wanted a boy. So they raised him as a boy. By the time he was a teenager it was clear to everyone -- even the younger kids in the neighborhood -- that this was not true.
It was heartbreaking to watch. He very much struggled. His parents fought bitterly over it -- each blaming the other. Eventually the dad abandoned the family.
And then there were the neighborhood meddlers. Even people who barely knew the family had strong opinions. Some thought he should be free to live as a female, and others felt his parents should do more to more strongly reinforce that he was a male.
At 31 they took their own life.
Rest in peace🕯️
So what you're saying is God makes mistakes?
U really explained the damage this has done to ppl. Thank you for your post.
@@I_WANT_MY_SLAWno one is saying that at all. Where are you getting that?
Unfortunately, now this "meddling" has been weaponized politically and people like this are marginalized even further.
@@I_WANT_MY_SLAW Seems like man made the mistake, not God. If you believe in God.
I knew a person who worked in a lab at a Boston Hospital in the 80 ‘s. The job was for her to do the various chromosome studies , etc. Tgen she turned the clinical data over to the Doctors to share with parents of intersex kids. This was a classroom environment and we were all asking and Then what? The Doctors and parents Then decided how the child would be raised, male or female. This was 40 years years ago and I honestly believe all parties thought they had the best interest of the child at heart. This is a wonderful piece and I am sorry Pigeon has been hurt, truly and particularly the osteoporosis as frosting. It will stop , things change as more information becomes available. Good for her using her voice
And early forced menopause. I'm sure she may be on E patches. It really made a difference for me.
This is exactly why we should never judge or make laws regarding anyone's personal sex! It's none of anyone else's business and Congress/Supreme Court needs to mind their own business!!
At the same time, it's why it should be illegal for kids to have gender reassignment surgery. You have to let the kid grow up and figure that out for themselves. It's permanently limited when you perform surgery. Besides, there's no reason for a kid to be showing their privates to people.
I'm just saying, if I was born this way, this is what I'd want. I'd also want to know what chromosomes I have, internal and external organs, and so on. Kids need to be kept in the loop and have personal caseworkers/ advocates.
at the same time, puberty can have devastating effects on someone who knows they are of a different gender than their body. @@Poodle_Gun
Amen
The ridiculousness of the comments is astounding. Its a medical malpractice issue, its an issue of doctors "fixing" perceived problems, many times with out consulting the parents. Yet so many of the comments are hateful towards the patient. You have the right to choose any name you want no matter who you are that doesn't diminish the severity of the issue.
Thank you!!!
I can understand why doctors did this with all the hatred out there.
They consulted the parents who were the legal guardians and legally had to make those decisions. The problem is, is that at that time, medicine didn't know or want to know what the long range effects of those decisions would be. Society didn't want deviation then, or now.
So people need to stop saying there are only men & women. Intersex people are important & matter. As many people that have red hair is how many intersex people there are in the world. And thank you for shinning a light on this. It hasn't been much information on intersex because people where ashamed to tell people. But they have always existed.
Intersex isn’t the same as plp having fully developed body parts choosing to be different. I think intersex are the ones who actually should have the chance to choose.
@@Nikki-ks6wi actually it is because genes are just code to tell our bodies to make certain hormones, those hormones tell our bodies how to look and develop. So gender is as simple as taking different hormones. It's not real. Once we get old we stop producing hormones, no matter what our genes are, and we become nonbinary. Look at all 80 year olds, they all look the same.
who are you to judge trans people?@@Nikki-ks6wi
@@Nikki-ks6wi”Choosing to be different “? so do you assume that homosexuality is also a choice? I’m just asking.
@@Mouse01011sexuality and sex are not the same reread the comment
Am also an intersex living in Kenya.
But is not easy been an intersex in Africa
A solid piece of reporting on a shamefully unreported subject.
I'm intersex I look male but have female parts on the inside and I have Klinefelter Syndrome meaning that my chromosomes are XXY and I'm transgender and I identify as female
NOBODY CARES
@@Dearthvader2you kinda do!
@@oc5297exactly the glowstick bot personal prejuidice intolerance projecting thing to say. Your motto is rules for thee not for me. And you probably still wear a mask and close outdoor parks for children.
@@oc5297 yeah or else he wouldn't have said anything
@@Dearthvader2 why are you making it political?
Intersex is not a condition, it is nature, which is animal, human species.
I don't mind the term condition, it's not bad necessarily. I like the term condition better than disorder.
Thank you for your voice Pidgeon!
I absolutely think that we should understand things like this and treat people rationally and compassionately. I feel that some small variances in human anatomy and psychology should drive us to alter the fundamental categorization of male and female.
@@MrsFarmingtonWhitmoreCom-wj2it parental rights are really overrated and I say this as a parent. In this day and age we have information. If u choose to ignore that information, you don't get a free pass because you wanted sex one night and forgot protection. That's literally all the credentials you need to be a parent. You don't have to be intelligent to get someone pregnant. But you do have to be intelligent to get a teaching degree or a doctorate. Giving birth or getting someone pregnant doesn't mean you know more than an actual expert who studied the subject.
What a brave person you are Pigon! I've been thru my 10th female cancer surgery and I couldn't imagine what doing this as a little girl. I'm glad that you had a family that supported you. It just goes to show that individual suffering is very unique. I do believe that there is always a silver lining to every moment of suffering. I cope with my own prayer.... Start 3 sentences.
Thank God.....
At least....
Sometimes......
It's brought me so much peace. My heart goes out to you!
Funny that they were doing surgeries on infants and children, and never studied if it was really necessary. We're seeing this also in circumcision decisions--though clearly that is less traumatic.
With all the controversy around transgenders, and gender re-assignment, this is a good example of why we need to just accept people as they are, and affirm their own choices.
I am so glad that of all the news/media outlets that Sunday Morning has presented this segment. It is so important for people to know and understand this group of our human family. ❤ I'm 45 years old and had a friend as a teen who was born intersexed and his parents consented to surgeries assigning his gender and sex as male. I'm not sure if how much his parents knew and understood but they didn't hide it from him and he was open with close friends about it. I'm so very grateful for knowing him and having at least some understanding that there is more than male and female and that our identities are shaped by what happens in our infancy and childhood. The lies doctors have told parents of intersexed newborns should be considered malpractice.
i feel like this is the proper use of "assigning" gender at birth. it should only be used for describing intersex people. it doesn't really make sense for anyone else since their sex is observed, rather than assigned, at birth.
@@jones2277I don't think you get this at all. There are people "observed" and their chromosomes are intersex but just not tested after being born or till later in life.
@@DigitalMediaPatriots exactly. 98.3% are correctly observed as their sex. Only 1.7% are assigned a sex.
that was the original use of assigned, trns co-opted the terms just like the co-opted from other oppressed/minority groups[eg 'passing' co-opted from interracial/mixed blcks .... genocide co-opted from gews/other destroyed groups, the list goes on] there's a list@@jones2277
Thank you for this report! All of it new information for me. Presented without advocacy or condemnation. So refreshing in an era where more than half of all media has a clear bias or agenda. My heart is breaking for the thousands of little ones who underwent unnecessary surgeries. More collateral damage from the Puritan ethic....
Intersex is fairly common. My sibling is a doctor and I remember reading in their medical textbooks in the mid-80's that intersex was actually fairly common. Glad to hear that people are now bringing it out into the open and changing and updating their attitudes
Poor darling--to have to go through all those surgeries as a little child. Very brave of her to speak out--I hope it helps others in her situation. ❤
We are constantly shown that there is so much we don't know, and yet sometimes we are so quick to act like we KNOW, and then we FEAR differences, and we JUDGE. And cause pain and exclusion, from ignorance masquerading as knowledge, wisdom and conviction.
Welcome to the America of today.
@@queent3343 For sure. Honey
Thank you for this story! I remember a kid growing up that was intersex and in those days the word "hermaphrodite" was used, which your story clarified is a slur derived in ancient Greece marking individuals as monsters, which they are far from being. I can only imagine the pain of that kid in Catholic school and the life that he must have led as someone who was intersex. You are saving lives by reporting this and may you forever be blessed for doing so!
This is the last time I will use the word hermaphrodite.
Same
We have so much to learn, I wish the people that don’t understand would not go directly to hate
It breaks my heart that doctors weren’t honest with her and her family
Thank you for presenting this important story, especially for your older demographic who seems to struggle with understanding these issues.
I think the older demographic is very aware of this topic, except they grew up saying hermaphrodite instead of intersex. It really isn't a new thing.
The funniest part is all old people become nonbinary when their bodies stop producing hormones. That's why elderly couples all look alike.
Thanks for the public service, CBS. Conservative media tries to keep their base ignorant and confused with the notion that this portion of our population can serve as a sort of common enemy for them to rally against. Clear understanding should dissipate that simmering anger.
We could all learn a lot from the way "Intersex" people are viewed in Native American & First Nation cultures. They are called "Two-Spirits"and they are revered!
Performing a Vaginalplasty on a young child is totally wrong. I am very sorry this happened. Kudos to you for speaking out, and standing up for yourself!
That's s heck of a thing to find out later in life
Please remember that sex is not the same as gender.
The level of ignorance regarding intersex is evident as depicted in a few of these comments shown here...try reading. You might just learn something...🙄
Ok boomer
@@OleLockAndKey I know...to be informed is so boomer-ish isn't it?? To an internet troll like you. anyway.
@@Julieglam3"informed" by whom? I'll wait...
Also, you don't find it the least bit telling that google/youtube deletes the postings from more than half of the people in the world - in the name of "fact"/"truth"/"hate"/"misinformation"?
You think it's normal for a tech company to be able to groom people like you into believing what they TELL YOU to believe? Have you ever thought for yourself?
@@Julieglam3thank you
The doctors should just leave the kids alone if they can't tell the sex. Then let the natural process happen and they can figure it out 🤷♀️
Thanks for bringing this to light. Love Pigeon I've seen her podcast and Pigeon is a star and a awesome advocate ❤🧡💛💚💙
If a person can be born #intersexed on the outside where it can be seen,why can't they be born that way on the inside? Where we cannot see.
If we can accept that a person can be #born that way on the outside, why can't we accept that they were born that way on the inside?
If everyone could get on board with that, that's one world problem solved! Agreed
Everyone agrees that people are born that way. It is called klepinglers syndrome or something. Maybe do some research and stop just repaeting what others tell you. Ignorance.
@fkutube933 good for you!!!
Keep up the great work. But please remember, insults show your desperation for superiority. You are intelligent enough to make your point w/o insults. Right?
Thanks for your comment.
I doubt tho, if intersex is a gender on it's own, why do they require surgery?
You know if left unchecked will be detrimental to the person in their adult life unlike one who came out male or female?
Nature does what it does… when will we learn to leave it alone and accept that this is part of nature’s plan…. The pain that would be avoided if all people learned empathy and practiced kindness should be the aspiration of every human being! Science and research are wonderful but they can be intolerant….always trying to gear towards the “norm”….I know one day we will get there…. Because in spite of it all…. I truly do believe that we aspire to the light and not the darkness….
What remarkable courage
A beautiful person; Much much respect to you for shedding light on intersex. Intersex is not abnormal; it is part of the gender... We need to understand there is female, male, and intersex. And there is nothing wrong with any of them.
Thank you Pidgeon for sharing your story. I grew up in the Chicagoland area (still live there) and know of this hospital. It is a good hospital and it is good that it issued an apology to you and other intersex children. We know a lot more now than before and hopefully are realizing that decisions shouldn’t be made just because a child will be more comfortable (or parents). The child will eventually notice and may resent it. They are human and should be treated as such.
Wonderful being who we are!
Celebrate that!
No one should be forced to suffer genital mutilation including "circumcised" newborn baby boys.
Agree. I've long thought circumcision is genital mutilation. It really needs to be a thing of the past.
This should literally be common sense, yet in the US it is not.
Doctors fixed what they thought was an opportunity for profit. 😂
No one is to blame. Everyone is accountable and forgivable. For 12 to 18 years after birth, the one most effected cannot make their own choice. By the age of understanding, for some, it is too late to prevent all harm. Humans cannot control everything.
john money fabricated the results of his studies, but his research is still used to justify many modern decisions in medicine.
What a beautiful and strong person and I’m so grateful they were able to share their story and that I was able to hear it ❤
Beautiful story. The courage and strength it must have taken for Pidgeon to arrive at acceptance is admirable. My prayer for trans people is to join the intersex community in finding their own acceptance of non-binariness without the tragic intervention of drugs and surgery that -- at best -- can only approximate a binary gender.
it's not tragic
great story....
These are the people that deserve a choice in my opinion all facts in front not ideas
Thank you for sharing Pidgeon's story regarding this very important issue! Once again, an example that conservative politicians need to keep their own beliefs and their legislation off of the bodies of other people.
Except when a woman wants to have 10 kids or doesn’t mind a child with birth defects l, then everyone including Liberals get to chime in⭐️I’m an Independent so I see the real biased logic on both sides 💙blue and ❤️red…Oh, and you both need my vote 😆
It's abominable to alter a child before they are old enough to decide for themselves. God does not make mistakes. How you are born is how God intended you.
I really appreciated this story. Everyone who identifies as non-binary is not Intersex, correct? What was the basis for protesting at Lurie Children's Hosptial? Was it to get the apology for Pidgeon specifically, or was it to get the hospital to stop its practice of deciding intersex babies' gender? The statement the hospital issued was just an apology, right? I would imagine in the current climate e.g., the past several years, the hospital no longer performs such surgeries on intersex babies.
I actually know someone who is nonbinary. But I don’t know much about….that person’s story to claim he/she is
Correct, not everyone who identifies as non-binary is intersex. Intersex is a medical designation, not a gender identity. I believe the protest in question was to advocate against the violent procedures forced on intersex youth to make them confirm with the opinions of doctors and their families regarding what their gender presentation "should" be.
the real nonbinary people are intersex/DSD people. the rest are just engaging in dress-up.
To the first part, Correct. Non-binary is in reference to gender like boy, girl, etc., which is social based (outward) and based on internal personhood. Intersex is biological and based on the “hard” science. I say hard in quotes for a few reasons too length to explain. Both are valid.
Intersex is physical. Non-binary is gender expression. I wouldn't presume that the hospital no longer does the surgeries. A PR response is a far cry from policy change.
If cutting parts off of hermaphrodites have resulted in horrible pain, scarring and early disease....what is happening to children wt healthy parts being cut off to transform into recreated parts....
She may not have intended to but she just made the case why you dont alter a childs sex before the age of consent
Here's another thought about that. She didn't know she was intersex, nobody was honest with her. She may have been able to identify which gender she wanted long before the age of consent.
No one does that. Gender affirming care for minors consists of clothes, pronouns, names, maybe hormone therapy and mental therapy. Not surgery.
yet it's completely legal to feed your kid fast food & soda every day, setting them up for serious diseases and health problems as an adult. and that affects waaay more kids than the miniscule number getting hormone treatment.
Keeping secrets from a person about themselves is the problem. Making choices for them is the problem, telling them they don’t know who they are is the problem. No infant should go through this.
I'm 69 when I was 15 I shared a hospital room with a boy who had had 15 surgeries to build a penis. At the time I thought he had been injured. But I wonder if this was the case. He was orthodox Jewish And his parents were very educated that probably had something to do with him Remaining a male. Like I said this was the late Sixties.
Thank you for interviewing Pigeon. I happened on their TH-cam videos several years back and found Pigeon to be such an engaging speaker. I purchased the book - cried throughout Nobody Needs to Know. Pigeon is an amazing human for sharing their story to help us insure ensure no other child is assigned a gender when born intersex in the future.
Our intersexuality is universal and inveterate. We are only beginning to learn how to be at peace with it. IMIRU?
Thank you for the Story of your Journey and Personal Life
Genesis 1:27
King James Version
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
They always apply!!!
And the doctors just had to f with her. SMH Unbelieveable.
She's beautiful. ❤
The point was making her acceptable to society. And as her intersex self, society still is most unaccepting.
5:40 omg she looks just like her mom so cute
Matt Walsh would have never handled this conversation.
Yep. His head would have exploded.
I do not agree with alot of what matt walsh says but he has always acknowledged that people born intersex are real. So obviously you have no idea of what youre talking about. Youre just parroting what others say.
@@Dearthvader2 Matt Walsh thinks being gay is a choice and supports conversion therapy. So what he thinks about intersex is definitely lost in the other noise he generates.
its a very difficult decision to make....lets assume the doctors didnt touch her and left her just how she was....her life could have been just as difficult...and she could be complaining to us how we didnt do anything and "put her in this position"....there is no clear answer...either way....she would need to ACCEPT what she has
Please speak over intersex people's voices. Thank you.
It's not Y chromosome that makes boys boys, it's the SRY gene that sits on Y that makes boys boys. If SRY is missing, an XY individual will develop as a girl-like person.
I got changed at 9 was on a doughnut for a few months drugs and brain washing that made me an mean fought with it my whole life never got close to love trust issues still have them I just want to be left alone that's all
Diversity is the key to a prosperous joyful successful and sustainable Future for All 💖
4:22 - very important.
I've heard about him
Strange but true, live and let love.
Did they say PIGEON BEGONIAS ? 🤣🤣🤣
Gods creations are so extraordinary 💝💙💝
Everyone: let's all share link to this story far and wide to help open eyes of those who believe there are only 2 genders and demonize sexual activity they dont understand
Unconsenting surgeries on minors should be outlawed
this very thing happened to me
I like him or her whatever you want to be called strong person
I wonder if Pidgeon has androgen insensitivity syndrome. This was covered well. However, instead of saying gender, biological sex should have been used. In today's world, gender can be chosen, but biological sex is predetermined. Thanks for sharing your story Pidgeon. Hopefully, medical providers will stop performing these surgeries on intersex children.
did you not watch this video at all? intersex people don't have a predetermined biological sex, they are literally INTERSEX.
Yeah but biological sex isn't accurate either. Junk don't always match the genes.
yes. Pidgeon has Partial Androgen Insensitivity Sydrome.
is intersex the ssme as being a hermaphrodite? i mean that in the most respectful way possible im jus truly curious if its the same thing a variation of it or something completely different all together?
Intersex is the new name for the "h" word. The "h" word is now considered stigmatizing and denigrating. Frankly I find it ridiculous to play these semantic games like calling homeless "unhoused" or illegals "undocumented".
This message needs to be listened to by the trans community that advocathe reassignment surgery just based on choice. All these complications apply to them. Surgery is not the answer. It's risky painful and has no chance of creating a fully functioning person Of the opposite sex.
I'm a intersex person ❤️😘
But I leaned how to love himself ❤
I learned about hermaphroditism from Dr. Marcus Wellbee back in the 70’s … a little digging into this condition they might find one twin never fully formed.
I love Marcus Welby! Wish I could find the full series somewhere.
❤. In this matter the public is not informed or educated about the truth of being intersex. Get ahold of the book work book about "on being intersex in the binary world" from beacon publishing company of New York. This is free order it and read discuss copy and share with your friends family associates and everyone that is curious about this subject matter
The state of Minnesota has the population of the country of Japan?!?!? (1:33)
Yes, that struck me, too. What she might have been referring to is that if you take the U.S. population of 331 million and take 1.7% of it (the upper end estimate of babies born intersex), that's the equivalent of the population of Minnesota. Then, if you look at the pop. of Japan vs world pop., that is 1.7%, but that one doesn't quite work out. She's trying to put into real context how many people this affects, and is really is more than most people would think. A high school of 2500 could have as many as 42 kids who were born intersex.
What she meant is that the number of intersex people is either the same as the population of Minnesota or the population of Japan (or somewhere in between). That's how wide the range of estimated number of intersex people is.
According to National Institutes of Health, the number of intersex persons in the general population is 0.018. That estimate is considerably less than the percentage reported in this piece. This piece is misleading.
Your statement itself may be more misleading actually. The source you cited: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ This piece by Sunday morning does cite the more common statistic, and there is academic dispute over it, as cited in the abstract of the study you suggest. The point should be that the number is unclear, but this makes the presentation of this minority group no less important. The debate is about who gets to be included in the term "intersex", not whether more or less of such people described in either case exist. It is an argument over classification, not existence. The numbers describe two groups of people, with the larger one being more inclusive.
The topic is only now coming out of the shadows. There will likely be some discrepancies, and controversies for a while. Let's just take a breath and wait before the blaming and criticism starts.
@@xelamercedesYes. A very, very long breath.
It's not misleading, they didn't give an exact number, only speculation. You're making things up.
Sounds like there should have been a 3rd human in the Garden Of Eden.
Speak out!
:( I’m embarrassed and I feel beyond ignorant . I’m ready for our views to be our own we as in humanity needs to control the paradigm how can we have a conversation with everybody . We got race issues , sexuality , finances , health , education, issues , how can we heal.
IMO There are 3 genders - male, female and intersex. You are who you are and you're born that way so I don't understand why people get so upset.
This is sad - they could have done a surgery to allow this person to develop as a male as the chromosomes and hormones would have naturally done and they could have possibly fathered children if they wanted to. They knew the chromosomes of this person and sexually castrated them.
The development you're suggesting occurs during embryogenesis.
Undescended testicles can easily become cancerous. No way to make them descend.
Uhhh, babies sex is hard to determine as babies. A baby could literally pass for a boy or girl. You can't tell.
Sadly 😢 the truth is the correct ion is considered normal and right 😢 but it's o so wrong morally in every way.😢😢😢
Unnecessary surgery pushed on parents by doctors that children later regret when they become adults.
Why does that sound so familiar?🤔
This...
There’s a very clear difference between a baby and a young person who has the agency to have life altering procedures.
@@oc5297yup! 8 year olds have life figured out! 🤦🏻♂️🤡
Including "circumcision" right..?
@@Dearthvader2
I've never regretted my circumcision.
Glad i dont have yellow goo build up on mine.🤣
I'm talking about surgery that people actually regret.
What are they supposed to do?
Nothing
It's an insult to intersex individuals having their real challenges hijacked by those who misappropriate gender.
when Pidgeon's chromosomes confirmed male, all subsequent medical assistance should be based on this fact.
Thousands of people are born with the gender specific dna that oppose their physical bodies. Which means they are born male with female dna or female with male dna. Read a book.
Who names someone pigeon?
According to the video, her birth name is Jennifer, so she named herself
Pidgeon.
He (God) made them male and female Genesis case closed.
Sure, whatever you say. Except for the millions that are born with conflicting gender characteristics.
Thought-terminating cliches.
sure Jan.
How is this relevant? What is even your point?
So, ignore the physical reality? Do you apply this to every aspect of your life?
I would consider Margie Greene to be in this category, I can’t tell which sex she is!
Become a parent , then you make there decision with information given to you. You should off, then later you wish to did not. Life, . Is she attractive to men or women,?
there's no way to know if not having the gender-conforming procedures would have had a better result. Pidgeon could be on this same segment crying about being alienated and harassed for a confusing sexed appearance. imagine growing up a teenage boy with a micropenis or a vagina. Roshaante Anderson's perspective on this is especially illuminating.
Pidgeon was upset by health conditions that occurred due to the operations, like the osteoperosis. That's something that wouldn't have happened otherwise.
The parents and doctors need the wisdom of Solomon to decide what to do. But I do agree that if medical intervention is needed, it should be done as an infant. In order to function very well in society, a person must know what he/she is with respect to gender, and learning that begins early in life.
0.05 to 1.7%
Reliable...pause...not
Unreliable because you don't like the numbers? Lol
Do you have your own personal study you'd like to share?
another Yaaaaaawner from liberals