I love this scene. Mary rises in my opinion. She shows a lot of her true character in that last line. She says she believes in following tradition, but at the same time she acknowledges the “rules” are stupid. She is perceptive and sees mr Ross as the good man he is, behind colour and class, and she shows him respect by addressing him frankly about it.
I loved Mr Ross, and the depiction that he’s totally ostracized as a black man living in that time period. Rose is one of the few people who sees Jack Ross for Himself and not his Colour first.
@@kellharris2491 At her age of 18, rn, I feel like I'm stuck in a box. Which is hilarious, because 1920's rose is a free spirit, while I'm expected to be a secutary or a stay at home Mum who relies on a rich man to marry me because my grades sucked (I was ill).
@@ladyfoxwf1075 honey at the end of the day your grades don't really matter. Don't listen to whoever's is telling you to just get married. As long as you have two hands you can work your way out. Start working full time somewhere. Save up. There will be some college or vocational school that will take you. Your life is yours.
@dianna k why are you reinterpreting my words for? By all means if she finds someone great. If she wants children have as much as you want but it should never be like your only option is to marry some wealthy dude. I'm saying she does have options. Yes she can still go to college even if she did poorly in high school. No in the long run it can be overcome. 26 is old 30 is old? Honey people are marrying later and later. That is the new norm. No man would want you? Why say that? If you have that attitude you'll marry the first guy who shows interest in you wether he is good or not. Or you will come off as desperate. If you want to get married you should look and put yourself out there but in the meantime work on yourself. Get as much education and experiences as you can. Take care of yourself. 26 is so young. You have to be happy with yourself to be be happy in a relationship.
@dianna k when a person loves themself, and trusts that death is NOT the end of a soul, then that person does not require someone else to say "I love you" to enjoy life. That understanding is true freedom. Even at age 80.
This scene quite sums up Mary's character, she's open for change, unprejudiced and is independent in thought by formulating her own opinions about matters. At the same time she's a realist who acknowledges societal and human limitations of her time and lives accordingly. She and Violet are very similar in that aspect, they are my two favourite characters.
This was one of my favorite storylines. The actor playing Jack was so good, I could feel his love of Rose come through the screen. What an incredibly handsome man on top of his talent. I hope to see him in more TV shows and movies.
And, at that time, no less. Ross is a smart and caring man. For those in the UK we in the US had laws in certain states against interracial marriage. Famous court case Loving v. Virginia.
I love the fact he identifies Mary with his mother... Whilst his mother is unseen, we can presume she is an American, not 'upper class' and most likely a black woman... Mary is an English, traditionalist, morally if not socially conservative, 'upper class' white woman... Yet they share a commonality. They both, despite their own personal beliefs, see the reality of their day and the world they inhabit and only say what they say because they care about the two people involved in the relationship. Mary and Mr Ross shine in this conversation, it's such a great portrayal of the complexities and double standards of the world they inhabitated.
For those that didn't catch that last exchange, "I wouldn't *give in* if we lived in an even slightly better world." "If we lived in a better world, I wouldn't want you to. [give in]"
@@MM-eo2oz and I suppose you were born in 1902 and lived into adult hood seeing it with your own eyes. This is exactly how it was, there were good people and there were bad people..the feuds were endless, especially in 1943 in Detroit
@@MM-eo2ozit’s realistic, not everything has to be a copy of the rest. For a great majority it’s unrealistic, but that doesn’t mean everybody had to think the same. It’s realistic because it shows that a few could’ve thought differently
@@MM-eo2oz u are so naive if u think there aren't people who were human and empathetic back then what do u think that it's only u who gets to stand on a high pedestal of morality?
I think she believes in rose just not in this instance. She knows that rose is desperate to be different like a lot of young adults. Mary was so right that rose wasn't doing this for the right reasons and I guarantee rose didn't think about why she was doing what she was doing or if she even knew what love was.
I think it is more of the fact she understands who Rose is. She understands that despite Rose claiming to be in love she is flighty and impulsive, and is likely saying that, and maybe even convincing herself it is true, when in fact it isn't. It isnt about her distrusting Rose, but rather understading her well enough to know she is fooling herself, as only those close to us can see sometimes.
The actress plays "MARY," though, as if ""MARY," might have supported them--not in that time period! There were black people --- slaughtered in the streets like Jews were, in Europe, as Edith's fictional"finance" supposedly was. it was not an enlightened era-It was a caste system:"Know your place."
Great point, I never noticed that. Maybe cause Rose is a super feminine girls name and Jack makes you think of a masculine, adventurous man, like Jack Sparrow, so much that they've subconsciously became classics paired with each other. Theyre both romantic sounding names.
2 "Jacks," and 2 "Rose" characters, appeared in 2 films -in same time period. Hardly"Prevalent." Those were common names, then. None of the four existed in history--both were fictional depictions-although the one building does exist from "Downton" Fiction is fiction...made up, 'tho entertaining tales.
my heart broke for jack in this scene. you can really tell how much he loves rose, and that he realised she doesn't love him quite as much as he does her, but he doesn't care. he just wants the best for her. i like to imagine his character found someone who loved him more than anything, because that's what he deserves.
This scene was extremely well written and well played. The work the actors had done with cementing their characters made this scene absolutely believable. With lesser actors and poorer writing, all bets would be off.
@@Mserg_5997 Me too. (white european Mom, afro-mexican Dad) My parents received a lot of hate, but they never gave up. And they were very happy and I’m alive. I love both of them with all my heart. They were the bravest, kindest and loving parents in the world.
Sad/tragic that this conversation had to take place. But kudos/admiration to the classiness, honesty, good-faith, respect conveyed by both parties during this interchange.
Don't judge people. I don't need to know you to know that statistically speaking you, along with most other people, would likely have been complicit in slavery and/or treating Blacks like scum if you were around in those times.
The exact same argument as Mary's was put forward in To Sir With Love and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Didn't work then, but they were set much later.
Her character is young and immature and lacking that maturity makes her appear cruel in this.. i do not believe she is. I think, yes, she hates her horrible Mother and grasped this love affair to shock her but I also think she loves him. His love for her is greater as the saying goes.. if you love them.. set them free.
......and what annoys me the most, is that Jack already decided he's not following through. Where's Rose and what SHE wants, in this storyline?? He's going to write her a LETTER? When they are about to set the date to get married? Surely, if they were able to go to a tea-salon together, publicly, he could have arranged to meet her to discuss the situation. I know I know: different times but still. And of course Rose had alternative reasons and was much to young and frolly. Thát is the reason why Ross breaks up with her; it would have been disaster, but not neccesary about him being black.
I‘ve got to say, poor Papa. He really was put through everything. First the chauffeur, then Mary’s scandal with Pamuk, then Matthew‘s death, then Edith‘s daughter, then a black prospect. Jesus. He did not expect that to come in 1912.
And he gets a lot of hate from some fans because he seems narrow minded sometimes.. I be like... you do know which time period this is taking place in right? If you where born then you'd probably agree with him. The fact is for a man in that time he is VERY open minded and kind. He can react harsh at first, but he always mellows it and loves his family dearly. Tom became like an actual son to him in the end as well. He doesn't get enough credit really. There are men alive TODAY not as willing and able to adapt to change for the sake of his loved ones as this man did in a time like that. Also his kindness to his staff was also very unusual. He's snobbish sometimes, which is logical considering his upbringing. But he's a good man. in the end all the Crawleys are good people, even Mary. They all act way kinder to people outside of their class or comfort zone then was normal for that time. Again, Mary included.
This British actor does an almost passable American accent. He's 95% there. But he over-enunciates the wrong consonants and dipthongs which makes him sound slightly stilted for an American. If he'd gotten the American accent down pat, he would've slurred more and dropped the endings of words more, especially those that end with an "ng." And if he'd gotten the African-American Vernacular right, well, he would be an accent genius then. The black British actor that was in the movie "Get Out" did an excellent job with the African-American Vernacular accent. I was surprised he was British, when I found out about his nationality. I honestly thought he was American.
This match breaks my heart.I know for the times it was best for both of them to split, but Ross was just such a nice man I hope after he and rose split that he found happiness in his life anyway.
Halsey R That’s ridiculous. She dint want to sound rude but she only came to address the situation which would take less than 15 minutes why would she want tea
@@sheismymom I don't think she would care in this private setting. I think it's more that she didn't want to spare the time. Usually drinking tea with someone meant you were planning to stay for at least like 45 minutes
Don't be naive. This was the 1920's in British aristocracy. Young well-bred young women were expected to marry someone of their own class. Someone of nobility. That was the whole purpose: Being able to trace your ancestry back to earlier Kings and Queens of England. The color of someone's skin would have been a HUGE deal back then. Don't try pretending that it wouldn't.
@@01Mary02 You are right and let's not pretend (not that you are), it is still a big deal to some families even now. The whole fiasco about racism in the Royal Family and allegedly someone worrying about what colour Harry and Meghan's children would be is perhaps the most public example. We are unfortunately still not beyond judging a person by their colour. Or even their gender, background (even if of the same nationality and race) or sexual orientation either for that matter.
@@andrewjones-productions Sorry Andrew, but I don't believe anything those 2 "effing grifters" say about anything. Harry admitted a few months ago that his family was not racist, and that it was "the British media" who made the claim, yet we all sat there & watched them tell Oprah that someone made a comment about what their kids might look like. The late Queen Elizabeth forged many close friendships with black leaders decades before Meghan was even born. The RF isn't racist. That's just a pathetic excuse for Harry & Meghan's bad press.
What would be the point of it when from the beginning you know fully well it would go nowhere? It would be like that totally implausible Peter Gordon plot twist in series 2. “I’m Patrick Crawley. Amnesia made me lose my English aristocratic accent and my God, you people are dumb”. What a waste of time. And Mary being attracted to Jack Ross would be another waste of time.
The class and character of both these characters, but especially the jazz man. What a world that someone should be judged upon not upon the character booming out through their chest… He is a person of class and caring.
@@ineffablegabe It's definitely better but homophobia and racism are still running incredibly rampant. But at least more people are able to stand up for themselves and for what they believe in.
@@xxwhispersxx2856 oh yeah, I know. I live in a country where homosexuality was only very recently decriminilized. But that is still better than Downton Abbey era. And I do have hope things will improve. Sadly, they're just doing so at snail's pace.
That’s what I kept asking. In those days a woman would never propose to a man, so how did she the idea that were going to get married? I think she just wishfully jumped to the conclusion it was going to happen and told everyone - just like with that married man she thought was going to marry her.
I like that last line.And I just wanna say a black man with a white woman in the twenties n thirties,he was always treated with respect.Those Crawley's were CLASS.
This scene made me respect Mr. Ross even more, when a MAN loves a woman he protects her at all cost, even when it isn’t to his advantage. The difference between Mr. Ross and Mr. Branson is so evidenced by this scene.
Rose is all bubbly and fun now because she’s pretty, rich, young and stupid. Eventually however, she will become her mother - a vile and venomous harridan. The way she selfishly and cruelly used this man as a pawn in the chess game against her mother proves that underneath the veneer of graciousness lies a calculating and heartless virago in the making.
Mary just saved Mr.Ross from a horrible marriage. Rose didn't actually love him or at least not as much as he loved her. He deserved better. She made me realize that I may have slightly misjudged upper class people back then.
Rose was so obsessed with annoying her mother she toyed with his heart and didn’t even think about what would’ve happened to him. She was a spoiled brat. She did this with Atticus too…even if she was devoted in her love with him. She wasn’t a bad character but she was so self obsessed!
I think it was more about the gesture. It is polite to offer some tea for your guest and it is rude to refuse. Even if you don’t drink tea, you can still take a sip or two.
Precisely! Rose simply wanted to be different by her decision of marrying into a different race,was quite literally playing with this man's honest feelings by being impulsive,it's obvious she doesn't love him but he does,he deserves better.
Rose was probably “in love” with him, but her primary reason for wanting to marry him was, as Mary pointed out, to spite and shock her mother, Susan, whom she hated. Going around with a guy your family disapproves of is a very long-standing form of rebellion for many young girls and women
In the commoners definitely. A legitimate daughter of a Marquess marrying a working class singer would be unheard of ,the dude in question not being white would make the scandal a 100 times worse .
It was always surprising that he had more of an American accent than a British one. He told Carson that his family had been in England for over 100 years, never mentioned he had any American heritage.
@@flyboy152 I think he meant his ancestors came to America in the 1790s. According to his character wiki fan page he comes from Chicago and works and lived in London
@@Serenity113 He says “my people came over in the 1790s, we won’t go into why or how”. He never mentions America, but considering his accent, it’s likely the fan page is correct.
Very vailcess from rosemary eucalyptus is vails how can you mix tea with coffee an rosemary with brown zugar will be quite bitter Sowers don't you think so ask a gentleman let it goes brown zugar don't mix with tea thank you very much for anderstan let her be a you be to good bye Mr
The only black guy seen on the series..A Jazz Singer..it would have been nice if they had more people of Color on the series..If they do a New Series Downton Next Generation..Who knows what could happen.
Why would there have been more coloured people in the programme. It was set in early twentieth century rural England, it portrays the era it is set. A lot of rural England to this day is still all white. It can't be helped just the way it is.
I understand wanting representation in programs, but I don't think that if a show is going for historical accuracy that we should just plug people where historically they would not be.
I love this show and its dedication to historical accuracy but this along with every other scene with the "black guy" are extremely cringe worthy its almost as if i would have rather them be their outwardly racist true selves than to dance around it with it on the tip of their tongues kinda tone deaf
Well, unlike in America where black people had been brought in by ships to be slaves, there was no such thing in Europe, or in the UK. So there were alot less black people in Europe at that time, and no real history of slavery based on race, since Europeans really only did that in the colonies, and even in British colonies slavery had been abolished way before the Americans ever did it, and since it was socially not ok for blacks and whites to really be together as friends or more, to most people black people would have just been ``the other``, or the unknown. Not something that you would want in the family through marriage, or as a friend or anything, but not automatically someone of less human worth then a white person, just different. So it would mostly have been ignorance like you saw in the show, not straight up kkk, murder and violence stuff...
@@katlouise12 The UK did partake in the slave trade, but the amount of slaves brought to Europe was very small, the WAST majority, as was the case with all European colonial powers, were taken to their colonies to work on plantations and farms, no to Europe. For most people it would have been very unusual to have seen it in the UK...
Mary thought Jack was a good man and a worthy one for Rose despite his race and class. She simply came to ask him whether he could handle the judgement and stigma that they'd have to face every day because of it. Mary's no racist: notice how she smiles appreciatively when he compares her to his African-American mother, and that she said she would want them to get married if there was no social pressure. That's worthy of praise, particularly in the 1920s. Mary watched Tom be bullied and abused for marrying Sybil, she was pressured out of her first love affair with Matthew because he might've been a middle class lawyer instead of the heir, and she didn't want the same for Rose nor Jack.
To add to Lucy's point, Mary figured (quite rightly) that Rose was marrying Jack for the wrong reasons, that being her hatred for her mother was stronger than her love for him. There was a scene earlier where Rose said that she wanted to marry Jack and "see her mother's face crumble". Mary didn't want Jack to be married to a woman who would carry him as the symbol that represents her spite towards her mother.
She did not convince him, i think he already came to his decision before this conversation. Besides - in 1920 this marriage would have been very difficult. So from the point of view from someone living in that time and place it was sensible advice. Of course it was not right then nor would it be right now for the other people harassing and ostracising a married couple like this. But it would have happened. Sometimes giving up true love to avoid all this can be the right choice. Not everyone is cut out to overcome this kind of resistance and i think Rose certainly wasn't.
Downton, like every single British dramatic production in the last 10 years (at least) is intensely larded with all the preachy PC themes. SMH. The ruin of Britain.
@@LittleBitofHopeToo2518 Thanks for the correction to auto-fill. We Fascists dislike poor spelling. So let me repeat: "Ah, and you are a herd NPC that thinks in cartoons and speaks in slogans. Thanks for letting us know." Much better.
Michelle Docherty is never natural in her acting of Mary. It is as if she is trying too hard not to let the accent slip and her body language is self-conscious.
I don't agree with you, Karl. When we see Mary, she is very often in a state of conflict of one sort or another. She carries it around with her. So Michelle plays her as up-tight. This is a very difficult situation for Mary, because she has to go in there and express a prejudice which is not necessarily her own prejudice. It is made all the more difficult by the fact that he is gentlemanly, and obviously not a gold-digger.
Mary is supposed to be extremely uptight and conflicted about something constantly. Her character is never at peace and has extreme trouble expressing how she feels/her emotions and Michelle Dockery portrays that magnificently imo.
Even in the 1920's England they managed to put a black guy in the story, and a completely improbable romance with a white aristocratic girl. I stopped watching from this moment.
I love this scene. Mary rises in my opinion. She shows a lot of her true character in that last line. She says she believes in following tradition, but at the same time she acknowledges the “rules” are stupid. She is perceptive and sees mr Ross as the good man he is, behind colour and class, and she shows him respect by addressing him frankly about it.
He was a really nice guy
It wasn't just about tradition here. His career would be ruined and Rose's social standing and life would be ruined.
I loved Mr Ross, and the depiction that he’s totally ostracized as a black man living in that time period. Rose is one of the few people who sees Jack Ross for Himself and not his Colour first.
I think Rose was reckless with this man's heart. He deserves better.
Who isn't reckless at that age though? She is a teenager.
@@kellharris2491 At her age of 18, rn, I feel like I'm stuck in a box. Which is hilarious, because 1920's rose is a free spirit, while I'm expected to be a secutary or a stay at home Mum who relies on a rich man to marry me because my grades sucked (I was ill).
@@ladyfoxwf1075 honey at the end of the day your grades don't really matter. Don't listen to whoever's is telling you to just get married.
As long as you have two hands you can work your way out.
Start working full time somewhere. Save up. There will be some college or vocational school that will take you. Your life is yours.
@dianna k why are you reinterpreting my words for? By all means if she finds someone great. If she wants children have as much as you want but it should never be like your only option is to marry some wealthy dude.
I'm saying she does have options. Yes she can still go to college even if she did poorly in high school. No in the long run it can be overcome. 26 is old 30 is old? Honey people are marrying later and later. That is the new norm. No man would want you? Why say that? If you have that attitude you'll marry the first guy who shows interest in you wether he is good or not. Or you will come off as desperate. If you want to get married you should look and put yourself out there but in the meantime work on yourself. Get as much education and experiences as you can. Take care of yourself. 26 is so young. You have to be happy with yourself to be be happy in a relationship.
@dianna k when a person loves themself, and trusts that death is NOT the end of a soul, then that person does not require someone else to say "I love you" to enjoy life. That understanding is true freedom. Even at age 80.
Mary demonstrates she is truly Lady Violet's granddaughter.
This scene quite sums up Mary's character, she's open for change, unprejudiced and is independent in thought by formulating her own opinions about matters. At the same time she's a realist who acknowledges societal and human limitations of her time and lives accordingly. She and Violet are very similar in that aspect, they are my two favourite characters.
Mine too. This was one of my favourite scenes with Mary. That proves once and for all that she is a great person.
Dispite this is more a pander to our own issues in the 21st century than something that would actually have happened in this period.
This was one of my favorite storylines. The actor playing Jack was so good, I could feel his love of Rose come through the screen. What an incredibly handsome man on top of his talent. I hope to see him in more TV shows and movies.
So true! I cried
Gracious, gorgeous Gary Carr....Never watched Death in Paradise? The Deuce? Trigonometry? Modern Love? Bolden? The good fight? The Peripheral?
I really love this scene. Such a mature and realistic view at an unfairly and unnecessarily fraught situation.
And, at that time, no less. Ross is a smart and caring man. For those in the UK we in the US had laws in certain states against interracial marriage. Famous court case Loving v. Virginia.
I liked him.
Oh my God, when he said he didn't want to "spoil her life" I burst into tears.
Je pense que ce personnage devait bien connaître la réalité de sa vie tout simplement...😁🥀
It's crazy that so few people realise how extremely common this sentiment still is
I always loved this scene. He was saying all the romantic things and she was replying with realness and honesty. Great writing.
I love the fact he identifies Mary with his mother... Whilst his mother is unseen, we can presume she is an American, not 'upper class' and most likely a black woman... Mary is an English, traditionalist, morally if not socially conservative, 'upper class' white woman... Yet they share a commonality. They both, despite their own personal beliefs, see the reality of their day and the world they inhabit and only say what they say because they care about the two people involved in the relationship. Mary and Mr Ross shine in this conversation, it's such a great portrayal of the complexities and double standards of the world they inhabitated.
Mary is a wonderful character, so complex that she's contantly dancing on the line between snob and pig farmer XD
Exactly. She is my favourite character as well as Sybil and the Dowager
@@jehannethompson1432 You have good taste!
Mathew was great too. So righteous and handsome and kind and perfect. Also Thomas. So cunning, yet so interesting.
@@Dr.SyedSaifAbbasNaqvi Matthew was the male version of Sybil. Both extremely kind & open-minded towards everyone. Tom was also really nice.
Bravo! Well-said! ;-)
For those that didn't catch that last exchange,
"I wouldn't *give in* if we lived in an even slightly better world."
"If we lived in a better world, I wouldn't want you to. [give in]"
@@MM-eo2oz and I suppose you were born in 1902 and lived into adult hood seeing it with your own eyes. This is exactly how it was, there were good people and there were bad people..the feuds were endless, especially in 1943 in Detroit
@@MM-eo2ozit’s realistic, not everything has to be a copy of the rest. For a great majority it’s unrealistic, but that doesn’t mean everybody had to think the same. It’s realistic because it shows that a few could’ve thought differently
@@MM-eo2oz Not really. Not everyone was racist. There would obviously be a small handful back then who weren't.
@@MM-eo2oz u are so naive if u think there aren't people who were human and empathetic back then what do u think that it's only u who gets to stand on a high pedestal of morality?
@@MM-eo2oz extremely unrealistic! I agree.
Mary believes in Jack more than her own blood relative, Rose.
That says a lot.
I think she believes in rose just not in this instance. She knows that rose is desperate to be different like a lot of young adults. Mary was so right that rose wasn't doing this for the right reasons and I guarantee rose didn't think about why she was doing what she was doing or if she even knew what love was.
I think it is more of the fact she understands who Rose is. She understands that despite Rose claiming to be in love she is flighty and impulsive, and is likely saying that, and maybe even convincing herself it is true, when in fact it isn't. It isnt about her distrusting Rose, but rather understading her well enough to know she is fooling herself, as only those close to us can see sometimes.
Jack is a wonderful man, it doesn't take time to realise it.
The actress plays "MARY," though, as if ""MARY," might have supported them--not in that time period! There were black people --- slaughtered in the streets like Jews were, in Europe, as Edith's fictional"finance" supposedly was. it was not an enlightened era-It was a caste system:"Know your place."
Why are Jacks and Roses prevalent pairs?
Downton Abbey
Titanic
Doctor Who
Great point, I never noticed that. Maybe cause Rose is a super feminine girls name and Jack makes you think of a masculine, adventurous man, like Jack Sparrow, so much that they've subconsciously became classics paired with each other. Theyre both romantic sounding names.
I'm pretty sure jack and rose were never a couple in doctor who if thats what you mean
@@a.mae0476 that's why i said pair
Two pretty common English names
2 "Jacks," and 2 "Rose" characters, appeared in 2 films -in same time period. Hardly"Prevalent." Those were common names, then. None of the four existed in history--both were fictional depictions-although the one building does exist from "Downton" Fiction is fiction...made up, 'tho entertaining tales.
my heart broke for jack in this scene. you can really tell how much he loves rose, and that he realised she doesn't love him quite as much as he does her, but he doesn't care. he just wants the best for her. i like to imagine his character found someone who loved him more than anything, because that's what he deserves.
"It may surprise you Mr. Ross, but if we lived in a Better world I wouldn't want you to."
One of the many reasons why I love Mary. I know people are divided on their feelings towards but I adore her so much.
Same here! She is so complex while a lot of the people around her see her in black and white (like with mathew's first proposal) and I love that!!
Same here :)
The way those clothes fit his silhouette lord 🥵
This scene was extremely well written and well played. The work the actors had done with cementing their characters made this scene absolutely believable. With lesser actors and poorer writing, all bets would be off.
Heartbreaking to think how often this must have happened in the past. If you love someone, you shouldn't have to let them go.
True. But it makes me even prouder to be alive (I'm half black half white)😊😊😊
@@Mserg_5997 Me too. (white european Mom, afro-mexican Dad) My parents received a lot of hate, but they never gave up. And they were very happy and I’m alive. I love both of them with all my heart. They were the bravest, kindest and loving parents in the world.
@@princessirulancorrino4695 that is beautiful and I guarantee you were the best blessings they could have wished for☺️💕
@@princessirulancorrino4695 ☺️☺️☺️😊🥰 thank you!
Sad/tragic that this conversation had to take place. But kudos/admiration to the classiness, honesty, good-faith, respect conveyed by both parties during this interchange.
Don't judge people. I don't need to know you to know that statistically speaking you, along with most other people, would likely have been complicit in slavery and/or treating Blacks like scum if you were around in those times.
Jack is so handsome
The exact same argument as Mary's was put forward in To Sir With Love and Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Didn't work then, but they were set much later.
He is a better man than most. Rose does not deserve him, after playing with his heart, just to have one up on her mother.
Her character is young and immature and lacking that maturity makes her appear cruel in this.. i do not believe she is. I think, yes, she hates her horrible Mother and grasped this love affair to shock her but I also think she loves him. His love for her is greater as the saying goes.. if you love them.. set them free.
What a handsome man. 🥰
Lady Mary is wonderful in this scene
is it just me who thinks that them being named Jack and Rose, was not mere coincidence?
YES
......and what annoys me the most, is that Jack already decided he's not following through. Where's Rose and what SHE wants, in this storyline?? He's going to write her a LETTER? When they are about to set the date to get married? Surely, if they were able to go to a tea-salon together, publicly, he could have arranged to meet her to discuss the situation. I know I know: different times but still.
And of course Rose had alternative reasons and was much to young and frolly. Thát is the reason why Ross breaks up with her; it would have been disaster, but not neccesary about him being black.
I‘ve got to say, poor Papa. He really was put through everything. First the chauffeur, then Mary’s scandal with Pamuk, then Matthew‘s death, then Edith‘s daughter, then a black prospect. Jesus. He did not expect that to come in 1912.
Robert had no idea about Rose & Jack's relationship.
Also, Cora's miscarriage and the loss of his unborn son. The loss of Sybil.
And he gets a lot of hate from some fans because he seems narrow minded sometimes.. I be like... you do know which time period this is taking place in right? If you where born then you'd probably agree with him. The fact is for a man in that time he is VERY open minded and kind. He can react harsh at first, but he always mellows it and loves his family dearly. Tom became like an actual son to him in the end as well. He doesn't get enough credit really. There are men alive TODAY not as willing and able to adapt to change for the sake of his loved ones as this man did in a time like that. Also his kindness to his staff was also very unusual. He's snobbish sometimes, which is logical considering his upbringing. But he's a good man. in the end all the Crawleys are good people, even Mary. They all act way kinder to people outside of their class or comfort zone then was normal for that time. Again, Mary included.
amberanime thank you. No characters are all black and white.
Life is full of surprises in every century
This British actor does an almost passable American accent. He's 95% there. But he over-enunciates the wrong consonants and dipthongs which makes him sound slightly stilted for an American. If he'd gotten the American accent down pat, he would've slurred more and dropped the endings of words more, especially those that end with an "ng." And if he'd gotten the African-American Vernacular right, well, he would be an accent genius then. The black British actor that was in the movie "Get Out" did an excellent job with the African-American Vernacular accent. I was surprised he was British, when I found out about his nationality. I honestly thought he was American.
Gary Carr is his name, and he is also a musician.
Make another season Downton Abbey 😭😭😭😭😭 Stop toying with my heart
Anyway it's sad to see them apart. (I know she marries someone else). But still. 😢
Jack and Rose how ironic
This scene was the most sad scene in the show!
This match breaks my heart.I know for the times it was best for both of them to split, but Ross was just such a nice man I hope after he and rose split that he found happiness in his life anyway.
Rose & Jack were my otp😭😭😭
She didn't drink any tea!
she's a lady she can't drink tea served by a black man
Halsey R That’s ridiculous. She dint want to sound rude but she only came to address the situation which would take less than 15 minutes why would she want tea
@@sheismymom I don't think she would care in this private setting. I think it's more that she didn't want to spare the time. Usually drinking tea with someone meant you were planning to stay for at least like 45 minutes
2:48 holy fuck and you worry about his skin color???!! you could spend a lifetime searching someone like that.
Don't be naive. This was the 1920's in British aristocracy. Young well-bred young women were expected to marry someone of their own class. Someone of nobility. That was the whole purpose: Being able to trace your ancestry back to earlier Kings and Queens of England.
The color of someone's skin would have been a HUGE deal back then. Don't try pretending that it wouldn't.
@@01Mary02 You are right and let's not pretend (not that you are), it is still a big deal to some families even now. The whole fiasco about racism in the Royal Family and allegedly someone worrying about what colour Harry and Meghan's children would be is perhaps the most public example. We are unfortunately still not beyond judging a person by their colour. Or even their gender, background (even if of the same nationality and race) or sexual orientation either for that matter.
@@andrewjones-productions Sorry Andrew, but I don't believe anything those 2 "effing grifters" say about anything. Harry admitted a few months ago that his family was not racist, and that it was "the British media" who made the claim, yet we all sat there & watched them tell Oprah that someone made a comment about what their kids might look like. The late Queen Elizabeth forged many close friendships with black leaders decades before Meghan was even born. The RF isn't racist. That's just a pathetic excuse for Harry & Meghan's bad press.
Can you guys do a video on the evolution of Thomas and Andy's friendship?
Yeah. That's under the Pride section.
The whole concept of a 'better world' is a vague dream.. undefined
he is so handsome!
He was a good man.
I can't help but feel like this arc would have been more compelling if it had been Jack and Mary being romantically linked instead of Jack and Rose.
hardly,
What would be the point of it when from the beginning you know fully well it would go nowhere? It would be like that totally implausible Peter Gordon plot twist in series 2. “I’m Patrick Crawley. Amnesia made me lose my English aristocratic accent and my God, you people are dumb”. What a waste of time. And Mary being attracted to Jack Ross would be another waste of time.
The class and character of both these characters, but especially the jazz man. What a world that someone should be judged upon not upon the character booming out through their chest…
He is a person of class and caring.
Mary was a better person than she let other people believe. Edith just brought out the worst of her because Edith was Edith
Someone finally said it!! ✅
Thank you.
Are we living in a better world?
yinan cheng I would say yes
A BETTER World would NOT have You Know "That" sitting in the Oval Office.
@@m.layfette6249 LoL. 🤣 Can't argue with that! As I said, improvements are certainly to be had.
@@ineffablegabe It's definitely better but homophobia and racism are still running incredibly rampant. But at least more people are able to stand up for themselves and for what they believe in.
@@xxwhispersxx2856 oh yeah, I know. I live in a country where homosexuality was only very recently decriminilized. But that is still better than Downton Abbey era. And I do have hope things will improve. Sadly, they're just doing so at snail's pace.
In better world, presumably Rose wouldn't get off on trying to upset her mother...
Get off!
Well in a better world, Rose wouldn't have a horrid bitch of a mother
Rose is the injured party.
It still confuses me why Rose _thought_ they were engaged. Did he actually ever propose? (Or did she?)
He stated to Mary that they were "about to set the date". Which means they are engaged. He most likely proposed off screen.
That’s what I kept asking. In those days a woman would never propose to a man, so how did she the idea that were going to get married? I think she just wishfully jumped to the conclusion it was going to happen and told everyone - just like with that married man she thought was going to marry her.
Fidel from Death in Paradise! 🥰
OFF TOPIC
Yep! We recognized the actor from Death in Paradise. What's totally cool is so many UK actors to recognize in so many shows :).
I like that last line.And I just wanna say a black man with a white woman in the twenties n thirties,he was always treated with respect.Those Crawley's were CLASS.
This scene made me respect Mr. Ross even more, when a MAN loves a woman he protects her at all cost, even when it isn’t to his advantage. The difference between Mr. Ross and Mr. Branson is so evidenced by this scene.
poor Jak!, he is noble
& very cute
Wait I just now realized that this couple is Jack and Rose. Like Titanic!
Rose is all bubbly and fun now because she’s pretty, rich, young and stupid.
Eventually however, she will become her mother - a vile and venomous harridan.
The way she selfishly and cruelly used this man as a pawn in the chess game against her mother proves that underneath the veneer of graciousness lies a calculating and heartless virago in the making.
No No, Rose will not be her mother..
Well, Rose was young and immature. Young people do and say cruel things without knowing the emotional scars they are making. I know I did.
Mary just saved Mr.Ross from a horrible marriage. Rose didn't actually love him or at least not as much as he loved her. He deserved better. She made me realize that I may have slightly misjudged upper class people back then.
The black man was like a green apple in a basket full of red ones.
That newspaper seller breaking the fourth wall ... really??
Rose was so obsessed with annoying her mother she toyed with his heart and didn’t even think about what would’ve happened to him. She was a spoiled brat. She did this with Atticus too…even if she was devoted in her love with him. She wasn’t a bad character but she was so self obsessed!
That's sad.
Diddy wanted Jack's scene. 🌹
And Mary didn't even drink the tea!?! Such a waste! 😲😱😵
I think it was more about the gesture. It is polite to offer some tea for your guest and it is rude to refuse. Even if you don’t drink tea, you can still take a sip or two.
❤❤❤❤❤
Wait what episode is this?
Read the video description - Season 4, episode 8
I think he loved Rose but I don't think Rose loved him.
Precisely! Rose simply wanted to be different by her decision of marrying into a different race,was quite literally playing with this man's honest feelings by being impulsive,it's obvious she doesn't love him but he does,he deserves better.
Rose was probably “in love” with him, but her primary reason for wanting to marry him was, as Mary pointed out, to spite and shock her mother, Susan, whom she hated. Going around with a guy your family disapproves of is a very long-standing form of rebellion for many young girls and women
Well he heard you were a Red Sox fan so that was a deal breaker.
off topic
Italiano grazie
10000/10
why are the american accents so strange in this show?
This episode of Downton Abbey projects Megan and Harry's situation. Please watch.
No. It does not.
Why didn't she drink the tea...
She was just being polite in saying yes. Tea would take more time than she planned on being there.
That was unsuitable
Joseph and today
Princess Elizabeth and Sidney Poitier?
Yooooo lady what about your tea??
No. Some interracial couples must have been then.
Few--in Europe--They never went back to America.
In the commoners definitely. A legitimate daughter of a Marquess marrying a working class singer would be unheard of ,the dude in question not being white would make the scandal a 100 times worse .
his american accent is godawful but it's a good scene
I am American and he sounded like one to me. Is he not an American?
It was always surprising that he had more of an American accent than a British one. He told Carson that his family had been in England for over 100 years, never mentioned he had any American heritage.
@@flyboy152 I think he meant his ancestors came to America in the 1790s. According to his character wiki fan page he comes from Chicago and works and lived in London
@@Serenity113 He says “my people came over in the 1790s, we won’t go into why or how”. He never mentions America, but considering his accent, it’s likely the fan page is correct.
Oof that American accent lol
It should be released in India in Hindi dubbed version.
Very vailcess from rosemary eucalyptus is vails how can you mix tea with coffee an rosemary with brown zugar will be quite bitter Sowers don't you think so ask a gentleman let it goes brown zugar don't mix with tea thank you very much for anderstan let her be a you be to good bye Mr
The only black guy seen on the series..A Jazz Singer..it would have been nice if they had more people of Color on the series..If they do a New Series Downton Next Generation..Who knows what could happen.
Heavena Wilson it is early 20th century England and the whole series takes place in a small village in Yorkshire
Why add more people of colour in parts of history and locations that didn't have many people of colour. Ruins the setting and immersion.
Heavena Wilson so silly.
Why would there have been more coloured people in the programme. It was set in early twentieth century rural England, it portrays the era it is set. A lot of rural England to this day is still all white. It can't be helped just the way it is.
I understand wanting representation in programs, but I don't think that if a show is going for historical accuracy that we should just plug people where historically they would not be.
I love this show and its dedication to historical accuracy but this along with every other scene with the "black guy" are extremely cringe worthy its almost as if i would have rather them be their outwardly racist true selves than to dance around it with it on the tip of their tongues kinda tone deaf
Well, unlike in America where black people had been brought in by ships to be slaves, there was no such thing in Europe, or in the UK. So there were alot less black people in Europe at that time, and no real history of slavery based on race, since Europeans really only did that in the colonies, and even in British colonies slavery had been abolished way before the Americans ever did it, and since it was socially not ok for blacks and whites to really be together as friends or more, to most people black people would have just been ``the other``, or the unknown. Not something that you would want in the family through marriage, or as a friend or anything, but not automatically someone of less human worth then a white person, just different. So it would mostly have been ignorance like you saw in the show, not straight up kkk, murder and violence stuff...
@@MrFinnboy69 the UK most certainly did participate enthusiastically in the slave trade and many people were brought to the UK and kept in slavery.
@@katlouise12 The UK did partake in the slave trade, but the amount of slaves brought to Europe was very small, the WAST majority, as was the case with all European colonial powers, were taken to their colonies to work on plantations and farms, no to Europe. For most people it would have been very unusual to have seen it in the UK...
--------------HHHRNNEIIIOOOOMagArAu
The editor did you no favors here
What’s making me laugh is “Translate to English”, but it just says the same thing.
why are y’all praising mary for convincing this guy not to marry someone because of his race and class 😭😭😭😭
Mary thought Jack was a good man and a worthy one for Rose despite his race and class. She simply came to ask him whether he could handle the judgement and stigma that they'd have to face every day because of it. Mary's no racist: notice how she smiles appreciatively when he compares her to his African-American mother, and that she said she would want them to get married if there was no social pressure. That's worthy of praise, particularly in the 1920s.
Mary watched Tom be bullied and abused for marrying Sybil, she was pressured out of her first love affair with Matthew because he might've been a middle class lawyer instead of the heir, and she didn't want the same for Rose nor Jack.
To add to Lucy's point, Mary figured (quite rightly) that Rose was marrying Jack for the wrong reasons, that being her hatred for her mother was stronger than her love for him. There was a scene earlier where Rose said that she wanted to marry Jack and "see her mother's face crumble". Mary didn't want Jack to be married to a woman who would carry him as the symbol that represents her spite towards her mother.
She did not convince him, i think he already came to his decision before this conversation. Besides - in 1920 this marriage would have been very difficult. So from the point of view from someone living in that time and place it was sensible advice. Of course it was not right then nor would it be right now for the other people harassing and ostracising a married couple like this. But it would have happened. Sometimes giving up true love to avoid all this can be the right choice. Not everyone is cut out to overcome this kind of resistance and i think Rose certainly wasn't.
Why are you trying to act like this show was set in the 21st century?
She did no such thing, merely asked if he was prepared for the backlash.
He'd already decided.
Downton, like every single British dramatic production in the last 10 years (at least) is intensely larded with all the preachy PC themes. SMH. The ruin of Britain.
Ah, you are a Fascist. Thanks for letting us know.
@@LittleBitofHopeToo2518 Ah, and you are a herd NPC that thinks in cartoons and speaks in slogans. Thanks for letting us know.
@@polemeros "your are" 🤣🤣🤣
@@LittleBitofHopeToo2518 Thanks for the correction to auto-fill. We Fascists dislike poor spelling. So let me repeat: "Ah, and you are a herd NPC that thinks in cartoons and speaks in slogans. Thanks for letting us know." Much better.
I wouldn't want her to marry him now.
What’s that supposed to mean
Michelle Docherty is never natural in her acting of Mary. It is as if she is trying too hard not to let the accent slip and her body language is self-conscious.
I don't agree with you, Karl. When we see Mary, she is very often in a state of conflict of one sort or another. She carries it around with her.
So Michelle plays her as up-tight.
This is a very difficult situation for Mary, because she has to go in there and express a prejudice which is not necessarily her own prejudice. It is made all the more difficult by the fact that he is gentlemanly, and obviously not a gold-digger.
Mary is supposed to be extremely uptight and conflicted about something constantly. Her character is never at peace and has extreme trouble expressing how she feels/her emotions and Michelle Dockery portrays that magnificently imo.
Even in the 1920's England they managed to put a black guy in the story, and a completely improbable romance with a white aristocratic girl. I stopped watching from this moment.
Shakespeare did it, centuries before.
That says more about you than the writers, really.
This story was based on an actual story of a black jazz singer having an affair with a white aristocratic woman. Someone doesn’t know history
Well he heard you were a Red Sox fan so that was a deal breaker.
OFF TOPIC