I stopped watching after the third season and i always wondered looking back why did I even watch such a show against all my principal and disgust for lords and servants times , and this episode writing remind why I was intrigued 😊
In my case since I haven't bothered to upgrade my TH-cam account to avoid those pesky ads always interrupting my viewing experience I only find the show so annoying already.
12:37 “Did he force himself on you?” I know Mary shakes her head here but the thing is, Pamuk basically did. He told Mary she couldn’t call out for help due to the scandal him just being seen in her room would cause & she physically wasn’t strong enough to fight him off, so she had very little option but to just ‘accept’ his advances. They were both very much physically attracted to each other but that doesn’t change that fact Pamuk outright ignored Mary’s requests to leave her alone & just did what he liked with her - but karma got him in the end (even though it still almost caused scandal for Mary & her family).
I think they were foreshadowing Edith’s career as a journalist when she knew what the Albanian talks were about from reading the papers. It indicates that she probably reads them on a regular basis and is interested in the goings on in the world.
You nailed it. That's the first thing I picked up during the scene despite the fact that I have watched it probably a 100 times by now but only picked it up today.
Either way, it is another way of showing the difference between the sisters, Mary’s interests are only for her property and she loves more “domestic” stuff and environments, like riding horses and such, Edith wants to know more about the world and everything about it , and Sybil wants to fight for the ones who weren’t as lucky as her and care for others. Mary’s center of attention is the estate, Edith’s is the world and politics, and Sybil’s is social issues.
Yes, also boredoms played a big role. All the sisters were completely bored, and they each struggled to find a way out of their vacuous lifestyles. No education, just look pretty and change your clothes several times a day depending on the hour.
one has to place 50 pence piece on the lids of a dead person to keep them closed. It looks like nobody here had a person/loved one die in house 🙄not funny at all just fact, my g-ma died in house and we all attended the funeral rite, dressing her all tje lot. i was 16 at that time, 1969.
Wow!!! Years after the show ended and watching this clip in 2023, that theory never occurred to me!!! Barrow would be the sort to do just that! I never liked his character throughout the entire series. So I don't put it past him. To further your point, he might also have poisoned him to cause a major scandal for Lady Mary if he's found dead in her bedroom. The only flaw in the theory is when and how would Barrow have administered a poison, especially one that wouldn't leave obvious traces?
I love the scene when Old lady Granthom show Cora the letter she got accusing Mary of the affair. And then Cora just stays quiet and stares at her. Not saying a word she admitted she helped move him….it’s great!!
Its really important to remember that from the point of view of our day and age, Mary was accosted, forced, and overwhelmed unfairly and without her consent. He had no business going to her room! Hardly something to blame her for, as everyone did in those days. The woman was always at fault. Women's Lib was badly needed!
But Cora specifically asks Mary if she was raped, and Mary shakes her head no. Given Mary’s station she could have used SA as an out to save her reputation, but she didn’t.
@Mia-dt3gl Although she wasn't forced, she was very much pressured, and I'm not sure how he would have responded if she did say no. She said no earlier when he kissed her and he still came to her bedroom. Not to mention he's a Turkish diplomat on a very important trip. Claiming he assaulted the daughter of an English lord and then died while doing it could have serious implications not just to the Crawleys but also internationally.
This was sexual assault. This man snuck into her room, knowing full well Mary’s reputation was on the line no matter what happened. He said as much. Mary may have been attracted to him, and may have been sexually curious, but she was fully coerced into sleeping with him. She had nothing to be ashamed of.
For heaven’s sake, Mary herself when her mother asked “did he force himself on you?” clearly replied “ no” with body language. That means there was consent. Also, if she was negative she could have insisted that he gets out of her room. Not only she didn’t do that but after the first shock, she started to engage willingfully to the act with ler language, she asked “is it safe?” and then she started enjoying the sexual bond with their kisses. No reasonable judge on earth seeing that story would argue that there was sexual assault here.
@@perdikasedShe asked "is it safe", which he lied about! He clearly had experience, while she didn't. She interrupted and warned him twice already after the first kiss about telling her father and left! He did not care and snuck into her room. When he did that, she covered up immediately and told him to leave or she'll scream or ring. He again does not care, kisses her along the neck, she again repeats to please leave. All this is coercion by definition! My god.
@@htimsidYeah, we all did. And Mary asked him to stop and leave, interrupted his first kiss twice, and warned him she will tell her father, and later when he snuck into her room, scream, or ring for someone. Multiple times!!
I always felt a little bad for Mary when it came to Mr. Pamuk. Mary, for certain, knew from the very beginning of the series that she had a certain charm and a certain beauty; she can hold a conversation and arouse men's curiosities and lusts. I don't think she was counting on Mr. Pamuk being just a smooth. To watch her go from a flirty "I have my Champions to the left and to the right" to suddenly pulling up her blanket over her body with an awareness of her chastity, shows just how naive she is. The fact that she doesn't empathize with Edith's situation later on shows a lack of introspection and the lack of self-reflection and a lack of humility especially given Pamuk's death.
@@patriciazoerner That's not what that comment says, and I can't make you understand it. However, I will drop a hint: For all the back and forth between Mary and Edith, which sister was always going to have a chance at marriage and which sister had to really work at it and take from slim pickings? "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged." And Mary judged Edith despite her own unfortunate circumstance. So when Edith lets her have it later over not revealing Marigold, Mary has no choice but to accept that she is not a good person. What she does to Edith is not revenge, it's intentional and malicious and based on her own inadequacies and mistakes. Then, she gaslights and makes herself the victim when anyone challenges her on how she treats her sister. Sister rivalries are often like that. There is always some kind of imbalance (like a favorited child) to start and then, very basic competitions (who can find a husband first) that exacerbate the situation even further. From the onset, the show is designed to have the audience sympathize with Mary, so we regard her cutting, cruel, and humiliating remarks and actions towards Edith as justified--- forgetting that Edith is her little sister and already at a disadvantage. She's ignored and isolated, and the audience is conditioned to believe she deserves to be there. The whole show is bullshit, a bunch of rich people passing judgment on the world beneath their feet--- but it makes for a good gossip story (the drama). We praise those character traits that we emulate or wish to have in real life. Except in real life you'll get your teeth knocked out or worse for a tenth of what comes out of Mary's mouth. And deservedly so.
Brilliant! Barrow could’ve been angry at being used for an act that is egregious and wormy even by today’s standards. She’s literally saying no and he doesn’t even listen until she acquiesces and has to say yes, that too after threats of falsification and shame. Coming from a culture that has similar social expectations about women’s “honor” , I don’t know why Mary didn’t say he forced himself on her, because he very much did! Sadly that wouldn’t have changed the situation for her socially, but at least her mother would have been spared the disappointment.
I think ppl forget that Barrow made a pass at Pamuk. An illegal act that could be punishable by death. Enough for him to want to kill Pamuk to bury his secret.@@faustlove
I did suspect it actually. He is lethal and capable of anything yet no-one would suspect him ever especially considering the redeemable qualities of his character.
Actually, at first he did force her. It doesn't change what he did and was preparing to do because she didn't fight back as hard as she could have, and only did so with words.
@@rustythegreatandpowerfulla2676 she said "please go", and clearly looked scared at first. Isn't it enough? She was genuinely attracted to him, but he still imposed himself despite she told him to leave. Mathew vould never have done that.
Amazing how many things it set into motion. Had this not happened, Edith would have been proposed to by Sir Anthony before the war, and they would have gotten married. Then no Marigold or Bertie. The uncertainty over telling Matthew caused Mary's first delay, which allowed time for the pregnancy and miscarriage by her mother and the delay that caused Matthew to spurn her - thus Lavinia and the fortune that saved Downton. Then it helped Mary see what a poor match Richard was. Not being able to ruin the family with the scandal was also the final straw that helped Bates be free of his ex to be with Anna - losing that game sent her to take her life.
Well, you can't say no Marigold and Bertie if she married Strallen. Strallen would have still gotten badly injured in the war. Edith would have gotten bored with being nursemaid, and Gregson could have still happened. Bertie too as Strallen being older when he was injured probably would not have made 60.
My cousin was badly injured in the Vietnam War and he was only 20. He ended up on dialyses from all the meds he took over the years destroyed his kidneys. He died at 58. Even though he lived almost 40 years longer, his injuries still shortened his life.
Why are you so angry? The cousin who was injured in Vietnam had to suffer through dialysis and his life was shortened as a result. The cousin passed away. I am sorry for her loss. Did you read the thread. And why are you so angry? Take a walk outside, eat a healthy snack, and be better.
I ain't gonna lie, this Pamuk tragedy had me shook. Mary lost her sense of control over a situation. TBH, I would've taken the chance like Mary did. I mean, c'mon, it's Mr. Pamuk...😅
Mary is only twenty-one in the first season, serving 1912. At that time, unmarried noble women had little training in sexual dynamics of men and women. Mary was enjoying her power over men, assuming that any man in her presence was honorable and respectful. She really miscalculated with Mr. Pamuk and his lack of honor and decorum. He was only a bit above Mr. Green who forced himself on Anna later on.
First, he kissed her completely without her consent and basically by force. Then he enters her bedroom, ignoring the repeated "no". Then a terrified Mary "accepts" her situation. She is literally assaulted...
Mary's experience is the reason I'm strongly against hosting people overnight in a home where you live with your children. Honestly, in my opinion, everyone should maintain their hotel rooms and leave my home the hell alone. People are full of all sorts.
Please follow this up with something like "The Pamuk Scandal Fallout". There's plenty of that in Season 2, with Mary's relationships with Matthew and Sir Richard, as well as Robert being told by Cora.
It's called side saddle riding. And it can actually be harder to control the horse, especially if you learned to ride in the traditional English (as opposed to western, or cowboy style riding, which use a different saddle and way of controlling the horse through the reins) way of riding with one leg on each side of the horse.
I remember I first got into Downton Abbey after having just recently moved back from Turkey, then saw this. I was super excited that there was a Turkish character that was gonna be on the show. Then this guy shows up and my first impression was "This guy is definitely not Turkish"
@@carmenmonoxide7459 He doesn’t look Turkish. And then when I looked him up, I found out he’s half British and half Greek. Greeks and Turks do share some similarities, but Turks look a lot more Arab than Greeks do, as well as some central Asian heritage thrown in there as well. Compare what he looks like to some Turkish actors, like Cengiz Coşkun or Furkan Andıç
@@VulcanTrekkie45Turkey used to be part of Greece, they still share a lot. Your comment is very stereotypical and wrong. I know Greeks who look more Middle Eastern than some Turks and I know some Turks who look whiter than some Greeks
What a creep Pamuk was, luring Thomas into thinking he was gay then using Thomas' imprudent move to blackmail Thomas into letting him into Mary's room that night. He deserved what he got, in my book. 😝 Thank goodness no issue was created.
@@HymnfortheDudesHe was persuasive and used pressure/coercion. She said no, to leave, she'll tell her father, she'll scream, she'll ring, what does he think he's doing, multiple times, from the get go. And people are allowed to change their mind and say "no" even after a kiss.
They edited this because when first shown on tv he says to her “when I am finished no one will ever know the truth.” This in response to her saying she’d never done anything like this before.”
Edith may have not thought it through and through. She was undeniably overwhelmed and overlooked in the family, including from her parents so the letter was her absolute ammunition in destroying Mary once and for all. Although I am glad the Edith found redemption in the end and was able to reconcile their differences.
I can't imagine having to ride side saddle; much less go over jumps in a such a precarious way. Literally no stability, no way to balance yourself, and no way to regain your seat. I ride and I would have been terrified to ride that way.
Pamuk didn't respect consent and got a heart attack, Mary was a silly racist and wound up being publicly disgraced by the very man she initially looked down on. Poetic justice all around.
There was clearly consent. Lady Grantham asked Lady Mary "did he force himself on you?" and Mary replied "no" with body language. Apart from that, If she was negative, she could have insisted that he gets off her room. Not only she didn't do that but she started to engage wilingfully to the act with her language, she asked "is it safe?" and then she started to enjoy the sexual bond with their kisses. Pamuk took the courage to go to her room because she flirted with him allover before. It was a risky decision that met the consent of the woman afterwards.
I believe Daisy the maid (she peeks out at 13:48) ends up telling Edith because she is so disturbed/afraid. I don't think she had ill intent, she was just young and terrified and she had to tell someone
Lol. Would that T.V. series have been popular at all if there had not been such excellent wardrobing and set design for the same? Maybe why so many are constant chasing after the latest fashions while constant bringing their cast offs to offer for free to the second hand stores whenever they are not contracting out; if they can do fancier updates all the time to their dwelling places too. Shall I feel guilty for not doing my own yard work well enough now too while watching "Downtown Abbey" too?
Can't tell you how many straight men have pulled the same kind of slimy trick on me. The flirting and then the pearl clutching if they get a response...
I found two reasons one has to do with winning first prize in a hunt, the other is red jackets or coats as they prefer to call them are worn by the Master of the Beagles
Michelle Dockery would wind up doing the movie The Gentlemen and Theo James would wind up doing the tv. 📺 version of The Gentleman ( a bit different but both definitely have to do with marijuana 😉)
I always believed Kemal Pamuk was Mary's true love. Why? A girl in her position would never have slept with a guy just out of mere lust - there was way too much at stake for her. When she saw Pamuk for the first time, she clearly was smitten & she mourned him for two years, while she only truly mourned Matthew for 6 months. Yes, she certainly cared for Matthew, but with him, there were always doubts - he was second best. Remember how he proposed, and when her mother became pregnant and it wasn't clear wether Matthew would be heir, she threw him over - just like she did when he couldn't walk, but wanted him again when he could? While she gave herself to Pamuk fully. For me, the true love stories of Downton Abbey were Mary & Kemal, Sybill and Branson, Edith & Gregson, and Anna & Bates.
It’s good that she was able to experience this, not the tragic part, but Particularly, dating while single. So that she can have a little more experience under her belt also to mature.
@@atruenut still too young. 50s is the litmus test. Look at Helmut Berger. Jude Law. In fairness, Jude Law is becoming a great character actor. Not sure Theo James can move beyond playing the cad.
@@neraratky It dosen’t mean that no Turks used surnames in that era. It may have been easier to introduce him to folks in the UK with both a first/last name. He was the son of a diplomate. And this isn’t a documentary…it’s a fictional series and he was in ONE episode.
And this was the scene that took away tens of hours of mine as I got hooked to Downtown like a drug addict. Love the writing here
I stopped watching after the third season and i always wondered looking back why did I even watch such a show against all my principal and disgust for lords and servants times , and this episode writing remind why I was intrigued 😊
In my case since I haven't bothered to upgrade my TH-cam account to avoid those pesky ads always interrupting my viewing experience I only find the show so annoying already.
@@hayderneamah1323It's only a TV show 😂
Neederläñs ver 8:51
No joke. I am starting to wonder if they are drugs. For real.
12:37 “Did he force himself on you?”
I know Mary shakes her head here but the thing is, Pamuk basically did. He told Mary she couldn’t call out for help due to the scandal him just being seen in her room would cause & she physically wasn’t strong enough to fight him off, so she had very little option but to just ‘accept’ his advances. They were both very much physically attracted to each other but that doesn’t change that fact Pamuk outright ignored Mary’s requests to leave her alone & just did what he liked with her - but karma got him in the end (even though it still almost caused scandal for Mary & her family).
agreed
Thanks for saying this. Absolutely agree.
I think he was hot as hell!!
She would have regretted sending him away forever !
I think they were foreshadowing Edith’s career as a journalist when she knew what the Albanian talks were about from reading the papers. It indicates that she probably reads them on a regular basis and is interested in the goings on in the world.
You nailed it. That's the first thing I picked up during the scene despite the fact that I have watched it probably a 100 times by now but only picked it up today.
Kind of arrogant and dismissive of Mary
Either way, it is another way of showing the difference between the sisters, Mary’s interests are only for her property and she loves more “domestic” stuff and environments, like riding horses and such, Edith wants to know more about the world and everything about it , and Sybil wants to fight for the ones who weren’t as lucky as her and care for others. Mary’s center of attention is the estate, Edith’s is the world and politics, and Sybil’s is social issues.
Yes, also boredoms played a big role. All the sisters were completely bored, and they each struggled to find a way out of their vacuous lifestyles. No education, just look pretty and change your clothes several times a day depending on the hour.
@@rachelgarber1423/ Mary was never as intelligent as Edythe
I could only hope to maintain a shred of the poise Cora had when she scolded Mary.
Agreed, my late mother would have skinned me alive....
@@gerishine3584Q10 C300
I don’t know if they intended the “ I can’t make eyes stay shut “ to be funny but I am on the floor !
Omg!! same!! It's always so funny 😂
one has to place 50 pence piece on the lids of a dead person to keep them closed. It looks like nobody here had a person/loved one die in house 🙄not funny at all just fact, my g-ma died in house and we all attended the funeral rite, dressing her all tje lot. i was 16 at that time, 1969.
@@westaussieeggs8867 What is a '50 pence piece'?
I didn't think it was funny at all... she had come to care for him deeply and to see him like that hurt her very much.
I always thought, Barrow might have poisoned Mr Pamuk, to keep his secret.
Thats what i thought too!!
Wow!!! Years after the show ended and watching this clip in 2023, that theory never occurred to me!!! Barrow would be the sort to do just that! I never liked his character throughout the entire series. So I don't put it past him.
To further your point, he might also have poisoned him to cause a major scandal for Lady Mary if he's found dead in her bedroom. The only flaw in the theory is when and how would Barrow have administered a poison, especially one that wouldn't leave obvious traces?
Wow that’s actually an amazing theory! I wonder if it is something they can reveal in another movie 😅
Might be true
No do think the elite at the time did not try and keep the help in line.. this was all they had to live..
This whole scene got me hook line and sinker!! What insane story!
Mary introducing Kemal twice is so adorable 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I love watching Downton Abbey wishing I could go back in time .....this is one of my favorite parts in Downton Abbey....
He obviously used more than his tongue me thinks.
I love the scene when Old lady Granthom show Cora the letter she got accusing Mary of the affair. And then Cora just stays quiet and stares at her. Not saying a word she admitted she helped move him….it’s great!!
Oh, yes! Then, unconditional love Cora ended it with a mic drop.🎤 Fierce!
He obviously did more than just use his tongue then?
Its really important to remember that from the point of view of our day and age, Mary was accosted, forced, and overwhelmed unfairly and without her consent. He had no business going to her room! Hardly something to blame her for, as everyone did in those days. The woman was always at fault. Women's Lib was badly needed!
Massively.
But Cora specifically asks Mary if she was raped, and Mary shakes her head no. Given Mary’s station she could have used SA as an out to save her reputation, but she didn’t.
@Mia-dt3gl Although she wasn't forced, she was very much pressured, and I'm not sure how he would have responded if she did say no. She said no earlier when he kissed her and he still came to her bedroom. Not to mention he's a Turkish diplomat on a very important trip. Claiming he assaulted the daughter of an English lord and then died while doing it could have serious implications not just to the Crawleys but also internationally.
This was sexual assault. This man snuck into her room, knowing full well Mary’s reputation was on the line no matter what happened. He said as much. Mary may have been attracted to him, and may have been sexually curious, but she was fully coerced into sleeping with him. She had nothing to be ashamed of.
For heaven’s sake, Mary herself when her mother asked “did he force himself on you?” clearly replied “ no” with body language. That means there was consent. Also, if she was negative she could have insisted that he gets out of her room. Not only she didn’t do that but after the first shock, she started to engage willingfully to the act with ler language, she asked “is it safe?” and then she started enjoying the sexual bond with their kisses. No reasonable judge on earth seeing that story would argue that there was sexual assault here.
👍. Absolutely.
Fuly coerced? Did you really watch the same scene?
@@perdikasedShe asked "is it safe", which he lied about!
He clearly had experience, while she didn't.
She interrupted and warned him twice already after the first kiss about telling her father and left! He did not care and snuck into her room. When he did that, she covered up immediately and told him to leave or she'll scream or ring. He again does not care, kisses her along the neck, she again repeats to please leave.
All this is coercion by definition!
My god.
@@htimsidYeah, we all did. And Mary asked him to stop and leave, interrupted his first kiss twice, and warned him she will tell her father, and later when he snuck into her room, scream, or ring for someone.
Multiple times!!
7:10 Mr Pamuk promoting Türkiye as a destination to get your teeth done - he was ahead of his time!! 😂
I always felt a little bad for Mary when it came to Mr. Pamuk. Mary, for certain, knew from the very beginning of the series that she had a certain charm and a certain beauty; she can hold a conversation and arouse men's curiosities and lusts. I don't think she was counting on Mr. Pamuk being just a smooth. To watch her go from a flirty "I have my Champions to the left and to the right" to suddenly pulling up her blanket over her body with an awareness of her chastity, shows just how naive she is. The fact that she doesn't empathize with Edith's situation later on shows a lack of introspection and the lack of self-reflection and a lack of humility especially given Pamuk's death.
What BS. Edith tried to destroy her own sister. I don't see how a relationship ever recovers from that
@@patriciazoerner That's not what that comment says, and I can't make you understand it. However, I will drop a hint: For all the back and forth between Mary and Edith, which sister was always going to have a chance at marriage and which sister had to really work at it and take from slim pickings? "Judge ye not, lest ye be judged." And Mary judged Edith despite her own unfortunate circumstance. So when Edith lets her have it later over not revealing Marigold, Mary has no choice but to accept that she is not a good person. What she does to Edith is not revenge, it's intentional and malicious and based on her own inadequacies and mistakes. Then, she gaslights and makes herself the victim when anyone challenges her on how she treats her sister. Sister rivalries are often like that. There is always some kind of imbalance (like a favorited child) to start and then, very basic competitions (who can find a husband first) that exacerbate the situation even further. From the onset, the show is designed to have the audience sympathize with Mary, so we regard her cutting, cruel, and humiliating remarks and actions towards Edith as justified--- forgetting that Edith is her little sister and already at a disadvantage. She's ignored and isolated, and the audience is conditioned to believe she deserves to be there. The whole show is bullshit, a bunch of rich people passing judgment on the world beneath their feet--- but it makes for a good gossip story (the drama). We praise those character traits that we emulate or wish to have in real life. Except in real life you'll get your teeth knocked out or worse for a tenth of what comes out of Mary's mouth. And deservedly so.
Bad take Mr pamuk forced himself onto Mary and Edith was all over the place
I believe he was the first time anyone had ever really sparked her passion!!
@@patriciazoerner
I would have never forgiven my sister for that!!
Someone commented elsewhere that Thomas was doing the drink pouring during the dinner the night Pamuk kicked the bucket
Wow! Never thought of that!
That's a great observation! I never thought of that.
At that stage of Barrow's life, I wouldn't put it pass him to ...maybe?
But since it was never bought up in the show, it's fan fiction. 😆
@@carmenmonoxide7459 And there is much too much of that in the series, Fellowes made it up as he went along and left many loose ends.
This was the best part of Downton Abbey, I wish they had more stories like this.
Has anybody else wondered the possibility that Barrow might have slipped Pamuk something? Or just me…
So he was making a pass at a soon to be dead man?
That is an interesting theory! Could have made an excellent surprise reveal further down the road....🤔
Brilliant! Barrow could’ve been angry at being used for an act that is egregious and wormy even by today’s standards. She’s literally saying no and he doesn’t even listen until she acquiesces and has to say yes, that too after threats of falsification and shame. Coming from a culture that has similar social expectations about women’s “honor” , I don’t know why Mary didn’t say he forced himself on her, because he very much did! Sadly that wouldn’t have changed the situation for her socially, but at least her mother would have been spared the disappointment.
I think ppl forget that Barrow made a pass at Pamuk. An illegal act that could be punishable by death. Enough for him to want to kill Pamuk to bury his secret.@@faustlove
I did suspect it actually. He is lethal and capable of anything yet no-one would suspect him ever especially considering the redeemable qualities of his character.
This Scene was so Well Acted
Actually, at first he did force her. It doesn't change what he did and was preparing to do because she didn't fight back as hard as she could have, and only did so with words.
The ONLY thing Mary needed to do was say no. If he ignored that it is force. Period.
@@rustythegreatandpowerfulla2676 she said "please go", and clearly looked scared at first. Isn't it enough? She was genuinely attracted to him, but he still imposed himself despite she told him to leave. Mathew vould never have done that.
@@reginaphalange7469 I think you need to read my comment again. And edit again.
@@rustythegreatandpowerfulla2676 Ah, sorry if misunderstood what you meant then 😅 (i am not a native english speaker)
@@reginaphalange7469 No worries!!
Amazing how many things it set into motion. Had this not happened, Edith would have been proposed to by Sir Anthony before the war, and they would have gotten married. Then no Marigold or Bertie. The uncertainty over telling Matthew caused Mary's first delay, which allowed time for the pregnancy and miscarriage by her mother and the delay that caused Matthew to spurn her - thus Lavinia and the fortune that saved Downton. Then it helped Mary see what a poor match Richard was. Not being able to ruin the family with the scandal was also the final straw that helped Bates be free of his ex to be with Anna - losing that game sent her to take her life.
Well, you can't say no Marigold and Bertie if she married Strallen. Strallen would have still gotten badly injured in the war. Edith would have gotten bored with being nursemaid, and Gregson could have still happened. Bertie too as Strallen being older when he was injured probably would not have made 60.
My cousin was badly injured in the Vietnam War and he was only 20. He ended up on dialyses from all the meds he took over the years destroyed his kidneys. He died at 58. Even though he lived almost 40 years longer, his injuries still shortened his life.
I'm sorry for your loss.
@@girlfromthebronxbywayofelb7288…what? OP isn’t talking about any personal loss
Why are you so angry? The cousin who was injured in Vietnam had to suffer through dialysis and his life was shortened as a result. The cousin passed away. I am sorry for her loss. Did you read the thread. And why are you so angry? Take a walk outside, eat a healthy snack, and be better.
I ain't gonna lie, this Pamuk tragedy had me shook. Mary lost her sense of control over a situation. TBH, I would've taken the chance like Mary did. I mean, c'mon, it's Mr. Pamuk...😅
It was horrible.
Okay Carmen I see you girl, same though 😂👏
I wouldn't. He's a slime ball "trust me"! And threats too!
Mary is only twenty-one in the first season, serving 1912. At that time, unmarried noble women had little training in sexual dynamics of men and women. Mary was enjoying her power over men, assuming that any man in her presence was honorable and respectful. She really miscalculated with Mr. Pamuk and his lack of honor and decorum. He was only a bit above Mr. Green who forced himself on Anna later on.
She looks so scared though. Like she's trapped. I can't see this as anything other than an assault.
I 100% agree.
First, he kissed her completely without her consent and basically by force. Then he enters her bedroom, ignoring the repeated "no". Then a terrified Mary "accepts" her situation. She is literally assaulted...
She put her arms around him and kissed him back. That was consenr
@@ronniselvan6243Nope. She had no options to say no. She could not fight him off. She was trapped.
It's a serious problem if you can't see that.
Agreed. Don't understand why people like him
Mary's experience is the reason I'm strongly against hosting people overnight in a home where you live with your children. Honestly, in my opinion, everyone should maintain their hotel rooms and leave my home the hell alone. People are full of all sorts.
did you just get here from the Edwardian Era? I hope you enjoy your stay in the 21st century!
you’re not wrong
Theo James is ✨e x q u i s I t e✨
Bhai yahan bhi?
The riding part here is spectacular.🎉
Please follow this up with something like "The Pamuk Scandal Fallout". There's plenty of that in Season 2, with Mary's relationships with Matthew and Sir Richard, as well as Robert being told by Cora.
I would add Mr. Carson's contempt for Tom even more, whenever Tom asked if Mr. Pamuk was his to attend.
Nobody can carry a tray like Barrow
That Turkish boy really stole Matthew's thunder.♎
Yep probably her 🍒
One of the best scenes , it got me hooked as well
Lady Mary riding with two legs on one side of the horse is badass
It's called side saddle riding. And it can actually be harder to control the horse, especially if you learned to ride in the traditional English (as opposed to western, or cowboy style riding, which use a different saddle and way of controlling the horse through the reins) way of riding with one leg on each side of the horse.
Did you hear the pretense fall off her face and crash on the gravel? @2:18
I remember I first got into Downton Abbey after having just recently moved back from Turkey, then saw this. I was super excited that there was a Turkish character that was gonna be on the show. Then this guy shows up and my first impression was "This guy is definitely not Turkish"
Why would you think that? I'm not trying to troll but I'm curious. 🤔
@@carmenmonoxide7459 He doesn’t look Turkish. And then when I looked him up, I found out he’s half British and half Greek. Greeks and Turks do share some similarities, but Turks look a lot more Arab than Greeks do, as well as some central Asian heritage thrown in there as well. Compare what he looks like to some Turkish actors, like Cengiz Coşkun or Furkan Andıç
@@VulcanTrekkie45Turkey used to be part of Greece, they still share a lot. Your comment is very stereotypical and wrong. I know Greeks who look more Middle Eastern than some Turks and I know some Turks who look whiter than some Greeks
@@hippiebippie8870 Did you miss the part where I said I lived over there?
I don’t understand the fascination with Pamuk. He didn’t look very masculine at all.
The question is: did Mr. Pamuk die on the point of the job or after it; each to its own!!
He probably had a sub arachnoid brain haemorrhage, at a 'critical' moment 😉
What a creep Pamuk was, luring Thomas into thinking he was gay then using Thomas' imprudent move to blackmail Thomas into letting him into Mary's room that night.
He deserved what he got, in my book. 😝 Thank goodness no issue was created.
Pamuk knew the instant she said 'don't look dishevelled to me' that he was well in...
My favorite English movie
(It's from the tv show.)
Somebody please explain to me riding side saddle. HOW do they stay on?!?!?! Beautiful scene to watch.
Mr. Pamuk was so handsome❤!!!
He did force himself on Mary.
Them carrying his body out was hystetical😂!!!
I love this tv series.🎉❤😊
That was definitely coercive.
She said no, and to leave several times.
@@kylaarmstrong-benjamin8066she loved every minute....he was very persuasive.
@@HymnfortheDudesHe was persuasive and used pressure/coercion. She said no, to leave, she'll tell her father, she'll scream, she'll ring, what does he think he's doing, multiple times, from the get go. And people are allowed to change their mind and say "no" even after a kiss.
@@HymnfortheDudesConsider not being that kind of dude. Creepy.
@@anonymus390 Nonsense, she was in more control than you think.
Mary got her “freak” on!
They edited this because when first shown on tv he says to her “when I am finished no one will ever know the truth.” This in response to her saying she’d never done anything like this before.”
The Cast Members of this show, are active now! Thanks to me :D . Brittney, Thursday, September, 28th, 2023.
'You presume correctly' is the proper phraseology.
Thomas. Thomas.🤦♀️
Mary is a survivor
Ah, poor Mr Pamuk, Lady Mary was too much woman for him....
Theo James is Pamuk? Wow.
You know it smells crazy in that ladies dressing room.
I wonder, if Mary ever told her Mother (or anyone else for that matter) about the letter Edith wrote.
Peace!
\o/
I don't understand why Edith wrote the letter when she must have known she risked shaming the entire family.
Edith may have not thought it through and through. She was undeniably overwhelmed and overlooked in the family, including from her parents so the letter was her absolute ammunition in destroying Mary once and for all. Although I am glad the Edith found redemption in the end and was able to reconcile their differences.
@@OrdinaryAviatorSadly though they lost their youngest sister in the process
I can't imagine having to ride side saddle; much less go over jumps in a such a precarious way. Literally no stability, no way to balance yourself, and no way to regain your seat. I ride and I would have been terrified to ride that way.
I love the English fox hunt scene the music and romance was so good
Poor mr. Pamuk. I wonder .if at the time did the actor who played the character .know how pivotal and memorable he would be .❤❤
She didn’t want to dishonor a dead man.
Pamuk didn't respect consent and got a heart attack, Mary was a silly racist and wound up being publicly disgraced by the very man she initially looked down on. Poetic justice all around.
silly racist??
@@leylarustamovaquite clearly.
There was clearly consent. Lady Grantham asked Lady Mary "did he force himself on you?" and Mary replied "no" with body language. Apart from that, If she was negative, she could have insisted that he gets off her room. Not only she didn't do that but she started to engage wilingfully to the act with her language, she asked "is it safe?" and then she started to enjoy the sexual bond with their kisses. Pamuk took the courage to go to her room because she flirted with him allover before. It was a risky decision that met the consent of the woman afterwards.
How come the Turk's accent is so perfectly British??!?!
He probably went to a British public school
In those days it was not uncommon for diplomats to attend a prestigious school in Britain or France.
The same reason why Prince Philip (The Queen’s husband) didn’t have a Greek accent
@@cocobrownythat's probably because Prince Philip wasn't Greek. And they didn't speak Greek in the family. He was German.
@@saladspinner3200that doesn't explain the perfect British accent. Lol
Barrow always dug his own holes
I wish they would have added the confrontation between Mary & Edith about the letter to the Turkish embassy. How did Edith find out?
I believe Daisy the maid (she peeks out at 13:48) ends up telling Edith because she is so disturbed/afraid. I don't think she had ill intent, she was just young and terrified and she had to tell someone
@@mayas.7458 I don't remember that - something new to look for! Thanks!
Thomas is the OG 😂😂
What does 'OG' signify?
Oh good grief…they act as though they’re trying to guard some big secret while the world is watching the whole sordid tale unfold.
😆😁
Mr Pamuk got his karma.
KEEPING YOUR EYES OPEN AND NOT MOVE AT ALL! SOME ACTING!
"The pursuit of the inedible by the unspeakable."
Good grief-how many hounds do they really need for one fox?!
It used to be about 20 to 30 couples of hounds for a hunt.
The Crawley ladies handle the cover up well... avoid the scandal.
The Turkish guy did it on purpose, he threw a bait at Thomas to bribe him.
That's so true!!! I never thought that he did it on purpose to blackmail Thomas!!
Was his gaydar that good?
I'd imagine that's the benefit of being immensely beautiful. You learn people's desires and intentions early and plainly.
@@adriangilbert5364 I was very handsome when I was young, and could tell right away when someone felt attraction towards me.
I ❤that the Servants were practically Family
Why nobody lock their bedroom at night? If i am visiting a chateau, i will definitely lock my door even if my husband is beside me.
Your bound to find something with all those dogs
Bates can’t lift him. William can’t keep a secret 🤫 and Thomas wouldn’t try to. 😂🎉❤
I didn't think Kemal was good looking at all
Get eyes checked, ASAP. 😂
The actor is good looking but with the wig not so much lol 😂
I can see why some would consider him good looking, in a pretty way. I didn't find him attractive though.
Blasphemy!
Matthew❤
👏👏👏👏👏👏🙌
Lol. Would that T.V. series have been popular at all if there had not been such excellent wardrobing and set design for the same? Maybe why so many are constant chasing after the latest fashions while constant bringing their cast offs to offer for free to the second hand stores whenever they are not contracting out; if they can do fancier updates all the time to their dwelling places too. Shall I feel guilty for not doing my own yard work well enough now too while watching "Downtown Abbey" too?
The prince of Turkey is so handsome. 🎉💞💕
What a joy to see white England, a memory of the past.
@@Christapsthe3rd-vw2so There are white Turkish. Study some history and geography.
Oh my darling...
Kimberly Clarke Sharpe ! ( After the light )❤
Can't tell you how many straight men have pulled the same kind of slimy trick on me. The flirting and then the pearl clutching if they get a response...
How nice was life back then what with servants cooking, cleaning and dressing you.
🙂 👏🏻
How to decide who wears red and who wears black?
I found two reasons one has to do with winning first prize in a hunt, the other is red jackets or coats as they prefer to call them are worn by the Master of the Beagles
@rachelgarber1423 Members of the hunt wear what are referred to as pink coats. Guests and non members wear black.
@@michaelmontagu3979 make sense!
Michelle Dockery would wind up doing the movie The Gentlemen and Theo James would wind up doing the tv. 📺 version of The Gentleman ( a bit different but both definitely have to do with marijuana 😉)
Mary et Pamuk je les adorais si il n'était pas mort lui et Mary ils seraient mariés et heureux ils étaient vraiments faits l'un pour l'autre
Literal me ví una serie sobre los problemas de gente fifi
9:04 what is she even hiding
Lady Mary took it the Hershey way. 🎉🎉🎉
And how do you know this?
I always believed Kemal Pamuk was Mary's true love. Why? A girl in her position would never have slept with a guy just out of mere lust - there was way too much at stake for her. When she saw Pamuk for the first time, she clearly was smitten & she mourned him for two years, while she only truly mourned Matthew for 6 months. Yes, she certainly cared for Matthew, but with him, there were always doubts - he was second best. Remember how he proposed, and when her mother became pregnant and it wasn't clear wether Matthew would be heir, she threw him over - just like she did when he couldn't walk, but wanted him again when he could? While she gave herself to Pamuk fully. For me, the true love stories of Downton Abbey were Mary & Kemal, Sybill and Branson, Edith & Gregson, and Anna & Bates.
I always prefer servant William more than Mr. Pmuk. He's not good-looking, is he?
It’s good that she was able to experience this, not the tragic part, but Particularly, dating while single. So that she can have a little more experience under her belt also to mature.
He is a beautiful young man. Will not age well with those features. Ok actor.
Lol its Theo James. Check him out in White Lotus and the Gentlemen to see if he aged well!
@@atruenut still too young. 50s is the litmus test. Look at Helmut Berger. Jude Law. In fairness, Jude Law is becoming a great character actor. Not sure Theo James can move beyond playing the cad.
At that time Turks didn't have surnames.
That’s what you noticed about this scene? Wow.
@@gailwebb9619 yes. İt's not correct.
@@neraratky It dosen’t mean that no Turks used surnames in that era. It may have been easier to introduce him to folks in the UK with both a first/last name. He was the son of a diplomate. And this isn’t a documentary…it’s a fictional series and he was in ONE episode.
@@gailwebb9619 he would be addressed by his name and Bey what would translate as sir
@@neraratky you do realize this is a fictional series? And that Pamuk was in ONE episode?
Man, this show made me despise the aristocracy and royalty. 🤣🤣
France did the right thing by sending the lot like these to the gulliotine early on....
Por esa regla de tres ahora también se podría mandar a la guillotina a muchos políticos.
Poor mr. Pamuk. I wonder .if at the time did the actor who played the character .know how pivotal and memorable he would be .❤❤