toph, twitch chat was right, you gotta start in a call-in show so pros and plebs can get their voices heard in a coherent way and you and a co-host can filter for bogus inaccuracies
Nintendude was actually a bit wrong about needing a specific kind of PODE for pivot u-tilts, all you need is bog-standard worn PODE on the Y potentiometer, but not on the X axis. This causes the X input to respond quickly, giving you the pivot, and the Y signal to lag behind remaining "up" while you hit A. (just to answer that specific question since you questioned the "specific kind of PODE" statement specifically)
This is pretty good information. Again, I haven't been able to test yet since I don't have a new-generation Goomwave. But this is an additional data point that makes me feel like there's nothing here that's really violating anything in the spirit of the game.
This info isn't quite right. if you have no PODE on the X axis you'll get snapback, which will make pivot uptilts unreliable as having snapback will cause some % of what otherwise would be pivot uptilts to be pivot jabs instead.
I feel like the goom just give you a "perfect" controller. If everyone had a goom, it would take the controller out of the conversation when we talk about why someone wins. I think that's important to expanding melee even farther, the less niche the better, as long as it stays true to melee and the community.
so the solution is everyone having to pay hundreds on a controller to keep up? If anything that would have the opposite effect of expanding melee, since people will think "oh if I ever want to be competitive I have to shell out a ton of money just on a controller "
I like the idea of more controllers and all. But we also need easier access to these controllers…. Not many people can casually blow over $200 for a solid controller.
The B0xx nerfs boggle my mind. It's like Hax gave in to the (uninformed) haters and changed it to appease them. (I do get the controversy around the box-style tho, imagine playing a game for 15 years and someone comes up with their weird AF custom controller and wants it to be legal)
@@somsnosa. Yeah, I'm in favor of boxes too. Pretty much any controller that doesn't have macros is fine by me. The digital stick inputs are a bit iffy, but goomwave kinda solves that too. There is a limit somewhere though. Box for instance was banned for a bit when it was still in development and you couldn't get one commercially. Should I be allowed to enter tournaments with my own custom "perfect" controller that no one else has access to? idk
Hax$ wanted to make sure that the B0XX got approved and that people with hand problems weren't carried by their fancy controllers. As a pretty casual B0XX player, I don't feel these nerfs, but I'm grateful for the reason for which they were implemented. Even though I rarely enter tournaments, I think knowing it wasn't legal would've discouraged me from buying it, and I probably would've quit SSBM. Super expensive, hard to learn, but worth it IMO. Now I play pain free almost every day
a small back room kind of thing having authoritative powers over nuanced issues like these are not the way to go. if it can assist ease of play i say let the people adapt if they can
You can physically see when someone is playing on box not in techskill but movement the dash dance a box player dash dances way different then a gamecube player does but maybe thats just me lol
This isn't something that would be discernable... Unless you can discern 1.0 dashes. The input sequences are effectively identical. The main ways to tell are from situations that demand various different analog inputs, like light shielding, aerial drift, DI, and Firefox angles.
@@shiz7459 I kind of know what you're talking about, but I think it's just a consequence of them not being that comfortable on the controller yet.. They just DD a little more, but I'm speculating.
My dream is for controllers to reach a point where they’re all essentially identical (assuming they aren’t broken), like equipment in athletic sports like tennis or baseball. If you forget your controller before a set you can just borrow someone else’s. You wouldn’t have to worry about it having all of your specific notches since it’d be the same anyways. Idk if that reality is even possible, especially when you factor in boxxs and stuff, but it would be cool if we barely even had to think about controllers before playing the game.
@@MavrosMinotavros69 Isn’t it more of a personal-preference thing, rather than certain racquets being objectively better for different people? Or at least they’re all pretty similar. I could be wrong though.
I feel if you can consciously decide you want to move a certain way, and there's a controller that helps you accomplish that, it should be allowed. Melee is about flow and movement, if one controller hinders you why stick with it? To me, the best controller is the one where you can do exactly what you want.
Idk if it’s really that simple because something that you may want to do may be unfair to everyone else. Especially if it’s rare or expensive, it might not be worth giving some players that advantage because they managed to get a certain controller.
I think there's a big difference between a controller that doesn't hinder you and a controller that actively helps you do certain inputs. For example capacitor mods stop you from getting screwed over by controller issues, but a macro button literally does stuff for you
@@bobboberson8297 I think macro buttons are short term advantages but really long term balanced. If you know they have ledge dash down tilt macrod, you can counter play. Yeah it's unfair for all the people that spent days practicing the same pattern but long term the people that practice have advantage with ability to adjust mid match. I think there's exceptions to macros on sdi and mashing as those were never intended to be perfect
Remapping buttons is the sole reason I want a Goomwave The Goomwave just puts analog players on the level of digital players with the options they have on a Boxx or Frame 1. It’s not playing the game for you, it just elevates what people can achieve. I don’t see an issue. People are already modding their GameCube controllers to oblivion with shell notches and capacitors. This just makes it more of a drop in solution to give people access. Why continue to gatekeep people if they can notch it or solder capacitors?
As someone who has been on the fringe of getting into melee for almost a decade and who has also been a student for the last decade, being able to easily and cheaply get a good and reliable controller would be awesome. I know that’s not what this discussion is focused on, but for the plebs who couldn’t even dream of getting a nez, it would be kinda cool.
Looking forward to the round table discussion! I think with thoughtful guests, a lot of good can come out of that in a way that posting various "takes" can't
Thank you for talking about the B0xx style too. I believe a lot of the nerfs to b0xx are not required. I could almost pivot better on gcc and I can get perfect WD on gcc
1.0 dashes actually sorta impact the frame windows on certain combos. 1.0 DI allows you to get out of Peach's uthrow dsmash at 0 as Fox iirc, and I know for a fact that it makes the uthrow chaingrab on Fox a frame less lenient at 3% (one laser post death)
There are definitely people doing true pivot utilts on the newest goomwave. Reeve had a great example where he did several in a row. You also do not need specific PODE to hit pivot dtilt because it doesn't require tilting at all. If you smash turn them are holding fully down on the next frame, you still start crouching which means you can dtilt right away.
I knew you would be first here lmao. Totally agree with pivot dtilting not being an issue, it's been fairly common among some top level players for a while on gcc (Zain, Rishi, Arc, and Syrox to name a few) - it's only true pivot utilt that is a problem. Frame1 also enables it because of the X/Y modifiers allowing for guaranteed utilts with no accidental tap jumps or ftilts or upsmashes. I believe the b0xx has a built in software nerf on console to prevent this and force an empty pivot instead. Ultimately, the question about legality probably needs to be reworked into what line we as a community are willing to draw. Is it okay to allow something technical to be easily accessible so long as it's in the game? What is the measure of what makes something "accessible" or "consistent"? UCF allowed for consistent shield drops and dash backs and totally changed the metagame with it. Are pivot utilts, frame 1 1.0 dashes, and tilt modifiers also things that we have determined that, because they technically can be done, should be more easily accessible as well? These are all things that have never been 100% consistent on a stock gcc, yet a frame 1 and potentially the GW will allow them to be, removing a huge swath of human execution (imo). Anyway, I 100% agree with you lol.
You have to wait 4 frames before inputting down tilt using the quarter circle pivot method, otherwise you get down smash. This can be alleviated by initiating and keeping your initial dash between -.2850 or lower on the Y axis (not letting it return to neutral), but that's much more difficult to perform. You can also do this for pivot up tilts just with reversed coordinates (.2850 instead of -.2850) which disables tap jump putting you in empty pivot state just like crouching.
@@EvilApple567 Thanks for clarifying, I should not have said right away. Still very fast though even if you are waiting to avoid the 4-frame dsmash window.
18:22 if you bring the stick to the gate, won't it input a tap jump? Unless you can buffer it (like how people hold up to do the first hit upair > uptilt) but my understanding was that pivots are one frame inputs, so if I input a pivot then cardinal up the next frame I would get a jump.
Controller tournament rules are still extremely simple and often not even included in the ruleset. It's more like an unwritten social rule that everyone seems to follow. The box-style controllers are the first "real" alternative controller that are now forcing this discussion and are also causing the conversation to bleed over into controller modding. I started playing melee recently, using Slippi, and that let me rebind buttons obviously. Now if I were to enter a tournament IRL I'd seriously consider hard-wire swapping some buttons (or goomwave). For how hard I tried, I couldn't seem to find any explicit rules about controller modding. Other than, "vanilla GCC only, no modding", but that doesn't seem true as box, notches, capacitors and goomwave all seem to be considered legal...
Response to the guy who said we should make controllers worse and then buff them rather than nerf them: That doesn’t really make sense if you’re looking at these controllers from the way that they were developed. The reason that controllers are banned is because they’re too powerful due to a designer oversight. Stuff like how the HitBox was banned because it allowed you to simultaneously press left and right was just a developer oversight with the controller. They didn’t make the HitBox for the purpose of breaking left and right inputs. They changed it because they realized it was an oversight.
I think the biggest issue with the Goomwave is that they are basically unattainable for the vast majority of the community, not even looking at price, just purely availability.
That's because it's not out yet. The only ones floating around are prototypes that he sold to a specific amount of people that signed up to be in a queue. When it is actually released, it will be available for everyone to buy.
@@Soundwves it is released, the current ones being sold in wave two are not prototypes, the production is just small scale with their expected scale up time being Summer of 2022. Wave 2 order form has been filled. So no it won't be available for the majority of people for another year. This is all on goomy's posted Google doc. docs.google.com/document/d/1K9_wPUrey-3ziAutkv6ZdtGyfIzfmjIMwRreLVMA25A/edit?usp=sharing
Also I was gonna say that, since the question has always been "is this as good and not better than what you can get on a really good OEM controller?", but I think it should be refined to "are all these things possible on a *particular* really good OEM controller?" The difference for me is that there are some tradeoffs with OEM controllers that mean certain desirable qualities are mutually exclusive, like how the best dashback controller and the best empty pivot controller could never be the same (OEM) controller. I think any custom PCBs or third party controllers should keep that in mind, like it seems (not specifically with goomwave just in general) that people look at "well this controller has x, y, and z, which are all possible on OEM controllers" rather than asking, could you ever find one individual OEM controller capable or x, y, AND z, all at once?
I think most accessibility criticisms of Goomwaves are, at best, short sighted. There is no solution for the controller lottery other than goomwaves. I think some things should be added through ucf so the distinction isn’t so drastic, but goomwaves will eventually be available on demand for anyone willing to pay a static cost for the last, best controller that eliminates virtually all variability within gc controllers.
No, goomy doesn’t want to mass production of his controllers. He wants to keep them as they are. Even if you have the money, Goomy gets to decide who gets one and who doesn’t.
I think what has a lot of people (many of whom are not even playing in tourneys) worried that the goomwave will create another barrier to entry into competitive smash in that you "need" this more expensive controller to play the game. What they aren't understanding is that that barrier already exists. The performance a mid level player gets out of a customized $300 dollar controller vs the $50 controller they bought in box on Ebay is already massive. The only difference between pre and post goomwave is the accessibility to the general public bringing that barrier into the spotlight for the regular population, while at the same time reducing the barrier. tl;dr: People worried about the accessibility of competitive melee have been fooled into thinking that the controller barrier doesn't exist at mid level because controllers are currently so inaccessible for the majority of players. The goomwave presents a problem for them in that it moves the perceived barrier from being this nebulous top level issue, to being a more common issue at mid level because good controllers will be so much more accessible.
"Instead of memeing about the things you don't understand, have an open mind and try to operate with nuance and subtlety and a desire to learn and promote intelligent discourse instead of you know..." -Toph
I think the only thing that really gives the goomwave and such controllers controversy in tournament, imo, is that it creates a paywall for entry regardless of skill. so for example, you could have tech skill to do anything, but from controller to controller , any oem controller could vary so much at the entry price range, or even a player that can only afford a decent controller every year is stuck with that or analog mods, like a variable cap. But if you pay 300+ bucks you can dial it in to enable you to carry and reliably practice your tech skill. However, this is true is other competition...you get what you pay for and if you want to seriously compete, the paywall is going to exist regardless
I think the aim should be for all controllers to have equal difficulty in conducting tech, something that is obviously difficult open to debate and subject to change. So I suppose the Goomwave should have settings within the reasonably feasible range of those on a regular controller? I think this is a good reasoning to apply wrt Boxx nerfs too (though even harder to judge!).
From what I read, the goomwave can let you remap coordinates on the analog stick to make the threshold for uptilt wider, thus making it easier to perform. Not just about PODE
Yea see that's unfair. New controllers have always been trying to make shit easier like that or how smash boxx is just buttons so it makes advanced tech easy to do within day 1. Again, unfair ultimately. It's like adding new controllers to melee is like changing the top tiers on your mod and hoping people stay with it. They won't
where'd you read that LOL, the only coordinates that get "remapped" are notches getting calibrated to the correct spot for wd notches and firefox notches
"try to operate with nuance and subtlety" at first you think it an unwinnable uphill battle, then you remember we used to nail people on crosses for beliefs. The current chaos is humans coming to terms with the newly ubiquitous nature of information and having little ideas of how to filter them, combined with the ability to shout at others from across the globe and time who don't come to the same "conclusions".
i might get a lot of hate for this, but im looking forward to that tap jump rounding. it is infuriating when i DONT EVEN move my stick up and i do a random double jump, or when i flick down to fast fall and i double jump from snap back. i can’t be the only one this happens to on a VERY frequent basis. i literally switched to keyboard because of shit like this and now coming back to controller, it still drives me nuts
That's just snapback though. You don't need custom motherboards to fix that, just playing the controller lottery is probably cheaper than getting a goomwave
@@bobboberson8297 that is half of it, i don’t like tap jumping when i don’t even try to push up. simply moving left to right in the air will trigger it and it’s very annoying. after 2 shitty gamecube controllers in a row ive started looking into more consistent controllers like the wii pro controller and i can’t go back tbh
@@33kappa1 My general point is that having a broken controller isn't an argument for using/legalizing software mods for functioning controllers. Maybe I should have made that more clear.
@@bobboberson8297 im sorry but if literally every controller i’ve used had this issue then i wouldn’t be saying this. EVERY controller, even with my xbox 360 controller it happens. it’s just annoying and i never even try to push up on the stick, im just moving around in the air. it’s the sole reason i wanna switch to a B0XX type controller
@@33kappa1 now you are basically ignoring what I am saying and now you are even talking about completely different things than you were in your original comment. pretty much a pointless conversation now
why's the thumbnail a madcatz controller? i was hoping he was modding good components into the madcatz shell-- that controller feels comfortable as hell other than, you know, all the buttons and analogs.
I don't get all the arguments over custom/alternative controllers. Like if the scene was being dominated by non traditional controller users then I would understand, but no one is using a boxx or goomwave to win big tourneys. So much argument over basically nothing.
If it's at all possible on a OEM controller it should be legal, otherwise people who want to do it will buy hundreds of controllers until they get one that can do it anyways. I also feel like we can't reliably predict the implications of new controllers and I'd rather we wait and see if it's *actually* a big deal, otherwise we'll be running in circles forever like we already kind of have with box controllers
I just got into melee like... two weeks ago? So I'm pretty out of the loop on what this is all about. So like, if I ever get good and want to compete, will I have to spend a couple 100 bucks on a controller to keep up with other people since this controller makes techs easier to do?
Yes. And even if you have the money, Goomy gets to choose who gets one and who doesn’t. Obviously pro players and people ordering extra mods and large orders - get priority over a no name casual player.
There was mention of the day one box being broken. Is this banned in most tournaments? Was this a version of the box that was publicly available / mass produced, and if so how could that be detected at an event by a T.O.?
What if I play Melee on a crossup? Jokes aside, I love my crossup because it helps with my tree trunk wrists. I think new controllers are super important as accessibly issues and I think it's not talked about in that way enough.
Nintendude left the panel and therefore talks or decisions about legality a while ago, then the panel disbanded. He only spoke up for ICs ban, didn't care about UCF vote, didn't say anything about big house/free melee.
I think only line that should be drawn is no macros. As long as every input corresponds to a real button press of some kind who tf cares what techniques are made easier or not. Let's push melee as far as it can go
We should set a limit on cost and such. How am i as a hobby competitor supposed to participate and compete against stuff like this if it will require a large fee.
I'm gonna pre-face this comment by saying I haven't watched this entire video, and I am overall in favor of controllers like the goomwave and the boxx HOWEVER I don't understand how the melee community in good faith can ban arduinos and turn around to sell people $2-400 controllers that do the same thing (or better). If you've actually read the SWT controller rules, you might understand what I mean. The only argument I hear for the arduinos is "well, you could cheat!" but like, have you seen a GCC with an arduino? You're not gonna know there's an arduino in there to begin with without opening the controller. People could be using them right now, and you'd never know. 2 of the 4 features the arduino were previously used for are already in UCF and while a 16.9° wavedash is cool, it's not what you want in every situation (and you still have to get close to the input for it to be auto-corrected), and a 1.0 dash input is technically possible (and hard to notice), so good luck catching somebody for that... and digital inputs can get it anyways. Specifically, I dislike that the controller rules *heavily* favor digital controllers. It puts the regular GCC in a place where notches are effectively king (and a notched controller is expensive). No macros, no passthrough, every button can only correspond to 1 action. Digital controllers? They can get around this with buttons to *modify* a inputs, something that is explicitly banned on analog controllers. I can not, for example, add a button to my GCC to change my down input to, say 33° (loose arbitrary example. There is a limit to the angles you are allowed to use on digital inputs). I can, however, buy a notched controller with this angle (and other banned digital angles) for $400. It's very disingenuous. The melee community has a cost-effective solution sitting in their lap and they think spending hundreds of dollars on a controller is a better alternative. Instead they're selling people expensive solutions and banning the cost-effective choice because people *might* use it to cheat. It's not even impossible to show up to a local with a first-gen b0xx and use banned angles, there's a guy in my scene who does this. He could play in online tournaments with it too, what are they gonna do inspect his controller? And I'm going to say it straight up. Some of my information might not be correct. If it's not, feel free to correct me. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just believe everything barring macros and turbos should be allowed. If you're going to sell a $400 notched controller as "the way to play the game", you might as well go full tilt and let people play the game for cheaper. The barrier to mid to high level melee should not be money.
Almost 2 weeks ago I was at the nightclub (nyc local) and I told some smashers that we really need a central governing body of melee similar to the United States Chess Federation.
No no, no ban. Why should someone be able to be able to find a shooting star of a oem controller but I have to play with one that can't do the same functions... Goomwave just allows for the best of what's available. If I had a fight stick that side something different than my competition the fgc would flip. Not saying melee isn't fgc.
I still think that more controllers is fine, until they start making things ultimately easier to perform, at that point you begin to have an unfair advantage. Just like in FPS comp games they don't allow custom controllers due to trigger guards and shit
Here's to hoping panda still makes their controller. I don't need anything fancy but it seems like to get a controller that works minimally as intended you have to first find an OEM and then hope its a good one or you have shell out hundreds of dollars. All I ask is to be able to spend sub 100 dollars for a product I know will work as intended
i know this is old but phob 2 might be the solution, it’s gonna be far more affordable/easy to source parts for than the current phob since it’s not reliant on teensy’s and fixes a ton of vanilla gcc unreliability
converting analog to digital is the problem with the box like controllers. Like there are too many issues that come from this and is the reason i want them banned
A big issue with this video (like the criticism it brings up) is it doesn't go into any actual information and is just talk. Toph brings up the points yeah Zhu, my friend, who has my Goomy controller, who I also talk to about what I want in my controller, can hit pivot dtilts with this controller, so keep it in.
@@woobiehastelly Yes anything is possible, but the boxx and GC controllers are specifically designed not to be re-programmable. I'm just wondering how easy would it be to get an unfair advantage on the other two tournament legal 're-programmable' controllers.
The whole argument for not letting boxx players do pixel perfect wavedashes if they want to is just a giant scrubquote. The gamecube controller came out 200 years ago, let it die.
Hey I loved the video and wanted to tell you the clickbait worked. I clicked cause I saw the crappy 3rd party controller in the thumbnail. Idk if you care but hey TH-camr stuff.
So ill throw a opinion in. I am a casual fan, I play lots in my spare time but never practice tech. I've always been good at games and when I play on slippi I win probably like 30-60 percent of my games depending on who I may be playing or how good im playing. I hear all this background noise and its weird, for me who plays by just sitting down and playing at my computer with a free hour, I always wonder, how is it possible people don't turn around with lazer. Found out this video they got rid of snap back After this video I am going, oh people put things in their controller to do technical stuff easier. To me, thats something I would almost never have time for, I just play and watch melee in a spare hour I have here and there. Its crazy that you guys are allowed to do so many custom things to your controllers. I almost feel like gamecube controllers should just be illegal and we should all play on a box. Seems alot less complicated lol
more like, if notches are legal, then the b0xx & the goomwave should be legal also, please don't use b0xx as a catch-all for box-style controllers. the frame1 has no nerfs to pivot tilts (b0xx doesn't allow pivot uptilt or downtlit) and the smashbox is literally completely un-nerfed, allowing you to program angles and switch between remapped profiles.
We all agree Toph is the wisest person in all the Melee community, right? He should TO. I'd be interesting to see which rules he supports and if he'd make any new ones.
IMO just play melee on emulators all of these controller issues and the last barrier to entry for melee would be completely eliminated if they did that "What abt nintendo" if nintendo is a worry then run finals on normal hardware because I doubt a guy on a ps5 controller is gonna be topping any time soon
All controllers should be allowed. Artificially limiting everything to a controller which was designed before I was born just seems so limiting. There should ideally be 0 difficulty in getting the inputs you want to do in your brain done in the game. I don't care that using these decades old controllers take more skill to do whatever, just let people input what they want.
remapping of buttons should not be anywhere near Melee. the Y and X buttons are jump, the L/R shield, and Z grab / light shield. if you are pressing different buttons for these inputs, it isn't Melee. imo
Smashbox is straight up cheating, but unfortunately, since they sponsor Summit, despite Dustin being a clown, people overlook the ludacris SOCD/customisation options. B0XX is kinda unfair, but at least Hax is completely aware of that fact and has regulated/updated patched nerfs. Like no 100/100 consistent max length wavedashes/ the ability to pivot uptilt /holding left + spamming right for insanely quick dash dances/ semi-consistent SDI on fox upair, with no timing. Not to mention the placing of the up button on smashbox is extremely unergonomic. I say this as a long time smash fan, who felt inclined to pick up Melee (despite it having *old fashined graphics*) after watching Apex 2015 unfold on twitch. The salty suites. The Leffen story line. The Kanpekina PPMD victory. THAT is what smash is all about. I have owned both a smashbox and an R1 B0XX (without the extra 2 FGC buttons on the top layer for LS toggles). I sold both of them, since they were heavy duty on my weak wrists. I have reverted to good old GCC. I bought a 150USD Nintendo Switch GCC after not enjoying either box experience. Little did I know that UCF does not fix snapback. I could not play my dual main spacies throughout the whole of 9 month slippi unranked I played. Instead I developed a slower Marth/ Trolly AF G&W, which I used on an alt to shit on newer players as to help alleviate my COVID frustration (Sorry to everyone I BMed) Also, my nintendo GCC 'brand new ultimate' had such a shitty dpad, that it makes the Slippi chat features completely unviable. I once finished a lovely 45 minute sesh with a random EU fox that was slightly better than me. We dittoed, (i played despite the fact that most nairs were back flips undershoots (due to snapback) and that walking/turn around uptilt was hugely inconsistent). Anyways, they had to go. I tried to GG, but accidently got a 'lol' then when i tried to put in another input, it spat out another ranodm BM message. They GGed twice, then quite out before my RNG BM pissed them off too much. Anyways, I think button remapping on GCC should be banned. I think smashbox should be ceased. It sucks, it's cheating and most players abuse it by emulating B0XX style control layout, without the nerfs. I think B0XXs actually need to be checked. I have been in hospital for 3 months and cultivated a HPLaptop Keyboard falco for .5-6hrs per day vs a lv1 Falcon, Armada style. It doesn't take a genuis to realise that digital inputs are fucking broken. I just use a 45 degree WD, and have no modifiers. I deem a HP laptop keyboard aimed at Uni Students to be OP, so why the fuck can ppl pick up a box and cheat? Also, why do box players feel so special? They are usually so proud of the fact they wasted 300USD that they add it to their Twitter/Twitch handle. I transitioned to Boxx cos my hands are sore AF. Noobs just switch cos they like Hax$, and think it'll make them better/define them as that local player with a quirky, sexy looking conch. In reality it takes around 9 months to adapt to a B0XX style, at which point you feel dirty about using it cos it's fucking BROKEN. Ban Smashbox, have a professional board evaluate B0XX/Frame 1 nerfs (which I highly commed for being self-imposed). The B0XX discord is incredible. A great community of smash nerds, debating WD angles and the ethics of a falco ledgedash/ true 1.0 dash left/right. The 'Shitbox' community is not great imo. Never used or experience a Frame 1, but seems gud. Ban Remapping. Encourage open/honest discussion (emphasis on HONEST) about controller mods/box controllers.
toph, twitch chat was right, you gotta start in a call-in show so pros and plebs can get their voices heard in a coherent way and you and a co-host can filter for bogus inaccuracies
Well DO I EVER HAVE A SHOW FOR YOU
Radio Melee, on my channel and PP's channel, hosted by me and PPMD EVERY TUESDAY at 3 PM PACIFIC :O
@@Tophbbq dang its only Tuesday at 3? I'll probably never be able to catch that. would you recommend i try going to locals?
@@Walla__ …….yes
Nintendude was actually a bit wrong about needing a specific kind of PODE for pivot u-tilts, all you need is bog-standard worn PODE on the Y potentiometer, but not on the X axis. This causes the X input to respond quickly, giving you the pivot, and the Y signal to lag behind remaining "up" while you hit A. (just to answer that specific question since you questioned the "specific kind of PODE" statement specifically)
If your stick inputs up for you you need a new stick. Pivot uptilts should be input manually, the empty pivot is the important part.
This is pretty good information. Again, I haven't been able to test yet since I don't have a new-generation Goomwave. But this is an additional data point that makes me feel like there's nothing here that's really violating anything in the spirit of the game.
@@SufferDYT You empty "flick" pivot into the .2850 Y axis notch, that's where the up input comes from
@@EvilApple567 Seems unreliable, have any links to someone talking about it?
This info isn't quite right. if you have no PODE on the X axis you'll get snapback, which will make pivot uptilts unreliable as having snapback will cause some % of what otherwise would be pivot uptilts to be pivot jabs instead.
I feel like the goom just give you a "perfect" controller. If everyone had a goom, it would take the controller out of the conversation when we talk about why someone wins. I think that's important to expanding melee even farther, the less niche the better, as long as it stays true to melee and the community.
yea but then we lose "blaming our controller" as a john when we all have a perfect controller
@@Dyleniz my goom is 2ms slower than yours
@Scroonga at high level it already is
so the solution is everyone having to pay hundreds on a controller to keep up? If anything that would have the opposite effect of expanding melee, since people will think "oh if I ever want to be competitive I have to shell out a ton of money just on a controller "
@@319ut4yr exactly
I like the idea of more controllers and all. But we also need easier access to these controllers…. Not many people can casually blow over $200 for a solid controller.
Try 400. And even if you have the money. Goomy gets to choose who gets one and who doesnt.
@@AzumaRikimaru my goomwave came out to $525 🤦🏽♂️
Yeah, theres only so many 1st party GC controllers from the 2000s that are in good condition
Yes. All I care about is an even playing field. I don't like feeling like I'm wasting my time practicing with my gc controller
The B0xx nerfs boggle my mind. It's like Hax gave in to the (uninformed) haters and changed it to appease them. (I do get the controversy around the box-style tho, imagine playing a game for 15 years and someone comes up with their weird AF custom controller and wants it to be legal)
the main reason i want boxx to be legal is just for accessibility mainly (like hax himself for example)
@@somsnosa. Yeah, I'm in favor of boxes too. Pretty much any controller that doesn't have macros is fine by me. The digital stick inputs are a bit iffy, but goomwave kinda solves that too.
There is a limit somewhere though. Box for instance was banned for a bit when it was still in development and you couldn't get one commercially.
Should I be allowed to enter tournaments with my own custom "perfect" controller that no one else has access to? idk
Hax$ wanted to make sure that the B0XX got approved and that people with hand problems weren't carried by their fancy controllers. As a pretty casual B0XX player, I don't feel these nerfs, but I'm grateful for the reason for which they were implemented. Even though I rarely enter tournaments, I think knowing it wasn't legal would've discouraged me from buying it, and I probably would've quit SSBM. Super expensive, hard to learn, but worth it IMO. Now I play pain free almost every day
@@somsnosa. lmao I don't think hand injury is gonna be the reason he's not attending tournies!!
@@JesterJones that isnt the point though, its about everyone
a small back room kind of thing having authoritative powers over nuanced issues like these are not the way to go. if it can assist ease of play i say let the people adapt if they can
You can physically see when someone is playing on box not in techskill but movement the dash dance a box player dash dances way different then a gamecube player does but maybe thats just me lol
This isn't something that would be discernable... Unless you can discern 1.0 dashes. The input sequences are effectively identical.
The main ways to tell are from situations that demand various different analog inputs, like light shielding, aerial drift, DI, and Firefox angles.
@@aiden9472 that too maybe its just me then i do find that box players dash dance in a particular way then gamecube controller players do
@@shiz7459 I kind of know what you're talking about, but I think it's just a consequence of them not being that comfortable on the controller yet.. They just DD a little more, but I'm speculating.
Lol at first I read the title as "should we ban THE smash controller" as in ban all gamecube controllers. Thatd be a wild hot take
Melee TCG when
im currently playing with an xbox controller because im as broke as my fake chinese gamecube controller
My dream is for controllers to reach a point where they’re all essentially identical (assuming they aren’t broken), like equipment in athletic sports like tennis or baseball. If you forget your controller before a set you can just borrow someone else’s. You wouldn’t have to worry about it having all of your specific notches since it’d be the same anyways. Idk if that reality is even possible, especially when you factor in boxxs and stuff, but it would be cool if we barely even had to think about controllers before playing the game.
In tennis each player uses their own unique racquet to fit their needs and it should be the same with melee
@@MavrosMinotavros69 Isn’t it more of a personal-preference thing, rather than certain racquets being objectively better for different people? Or at least they’re all pretty similar. I could be wrong though.
I feel if you can consciously decide you want to move a certain way, and there's a controller that helps you accomplish that, it should be allowed. Melee is about flow and movement, if one controller hinders you why stick with it? To me, the best controller is the one where you can do exactly what you want.
Idk if it’s really that simple because something that you may want to do may be unfair to everyone else. Especially if it’s rare or expensive, it might not be worth giving some players that advantage because they managed to get a certain controller.
I think there's a big difference between a controller that doesn't hinder you and a controller that actively helps you do certain inputs. For example capacitor mods stop you from getting screwed over by controller issues, but a macro button literally does stuff for you
@@bobboberson8297 I think macro buttons are short term advantages but really long term balanced. If you know they have ledge dash down tilt macrod, you can counter play. Yeah it's unfair for all the people that spent days practicing the same pattern but long term the people that practice have advantage with ability to adjust mid match. I think there's exceptions to macros on sdi and mashing as those were never intended to be perfect
@@mjohnson2807 Legalizing macros is probably the single easiest way to destroy any competitive game, what an absolute garbage tier take.
@@bobboberson8297 I'm not saying legalize it, I'm saying macros are only an advantage to lower rated matches, at higher levels it loses value
Remapping buttons is the sole reason I want a Goomwave
The Goomwave just puts analog players on the level of digital players with the options they have on a Boxx or Frame 1. It’s not playing the game for you, it just elevates what people can achieve. I don’t see an issue. People are already modding their GameCube controllers to oblivion with shell notches and capacitors. This just makes it more of a drop in solution to give people access. Why continue to gatekeep people if they can notch it or solder capacitors?
As someone who has been on the fringe of getting into melee for almost a decade and who has also been a student for the last decade, being able to easily and cheaply get a good and reliable controller would be awesome. I know that’s not what this discussion is focused on, but for the plebs who couldn’t even dream of getting a nez, it would be kinda cool.
To be clear, hardcore into melee, to where a consistent controller would be appreciated
Looking forward to the round table discussion! I think with thoughtful guests, a lot of good can come out of that in a way that posting various "takes" can't
Thank you for talking about the B0xx style too. I believe a lot of the nerfs to b0xx are not required. I could almost pivot better on gcc and I can get perfect WD on gcc
1.0 dashes actually sorta impact the frame windows on certain combos. 1.0 DI allows you to get out of Peach's uthrow dsmash at 0 as Fox iirc, and I know for a fact that it makes the uthrow chaingrab on Fox a frame less lenient at 3% (one laser post death)
Hey! You guys changed the thumbnail! Glad you took the suggestion, looks a lot cleaner!
There are definitely people doing true pivot utilts on the newest goomwave. Reeve had a great example where he did several in a row. You also do not need specific PODE to hit pivot dtilt because it doesn't require tilting at all. If you smash turn them are holding fully down on the next frame, you still start crouching which means you can dtilt right away.
I knew you would be first here lmao. Totally agree with pivot dtilting not being an issue, it's been fairly common among some top level players for a while on gcc (Zain, Rishi, Arc, and Syrox to name a few) - it's only true pivot utilt that is a problem. Frame1 also enables it because of the X/Y modifiers allowing for guaranteed utilts with no accidental tap jumps or ftilts or upsmashes. I believe the b0xx has a built in software nerf on console to prevent this and force an empty pivot instead.
Ultimately, the question about legality probably needs to be reworked into what line we as a community are willing to draw. Is it okay to allow something technical to be easily accessible so long as it's in the game? What is the measure of what makes something "accessible" or "consistent"? UCF allowed for consistent shield drops and dash backs and totally changed the metagame with it. Are pivot utilts, frame 1 1.0 dashes, and tilt modifiers also things that we have determined that, because they technically can be done, should be more easily accessible as well? These are all things that have never been 100% consistent on a stock gcc, yet a frame 1 and potentially the GW will allow them to be, removing a huge swath of human execution (imo).
Anyway, I 100% agree with you lol.
You have to wait 4 frames before inputting down tilt using the quarter circle pivot method, otherwise you get down smash. This can be alleviated by initiating and keeping your initial dash between -.2850 or lower on the Y axis (not letting it return to neutral), but that's much more difficult to perform. You can also do this for pivot up tilts just with reversed coordinates (.2850 instead of -.2850) which disables tap jump putting you in empty pivot state just like crouching.
@@EvilApple567 Thanks for clarifying, I should not have said right away. Still very fast though even if you are waiting to avoid the 4-frame dsmash window.
18:22 if you bring the stick to the gate, won't it input a tap jump? Unless you can buffer it (like how people hold up to do the first hit upair > uptilt) but my understanding was that pivots are one frame inputs, so if I input a pivot then cardinal up the next frame I would get a jump.
1.00 dashes being a UCF fix would be lit, ngl. Completely nollifies more of the controller lottery, making the game more accessible
Nullifies*
Controller tournament rules are still extremely simple and often not even included in the ruleset. It's more like an unwritten social rule that everyone seems to follow. The box-style controllers are the first "real" alternative controller that are now forcing this discussion and are also causing the conversation to bleed over into controller modding.
I started playing melee recently, using Slippi, and that let me rebind buttons obviously. Now if I were to enter a tournament IRL I'd seriously consider hard-wire swapping some buttons (or goomwave). For how hard I tried, I couldn't seem to find any explicit rules about controller modding. Other than, "vanilla GCC only, no modding", but that doesn't seem true as box, notches, capacitors and goomwave all seem to be considered legal...
Response to the guy who said we should make controllers worse and then buff them rather than nerf them:
That doesn’t really make sense if you’re looking at these controllers from the way that they were developed. The reason that controllers are banned is because they’re too powerful due to a designer oversight. Stuff like how the HitBox was banned because it allowed you to simultaneously press left and right was just a developer oversight with the controller. They didn’t make the HitBox for the purpose of breaking left and right inputs. They changed it because they realized it was an oversight.
Toph “P-O-D, pode, P-O-D-E” Barbecue
:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
yo thats you
@@seanathan1 it truly is xD
Have u gotten better at pivot d-tilt
I think the biggest issue with the Goomwave is that they are basically unattainable for the vast majority of the community, not even looking at price, just purely availability.
That's because it's not out yet. The only ones floating around are prototypes that he sold to a specific amount of people that signed up to be in a queue.
When it is actually released, it will be available for everyone to buy.
That price is a big factor too though 😂
@@Soundwves it is released, the current ones being sold in wave two are not prototypes, the production is just small scale with their expected scale up time being Summer of 2022. Wave 2 order form has been filled. So no it won't be available for the majority of people for another year. This is all on goomy's posted Google doc. docs.google.com/document/d/1K9_wPUrey-3ziAutkv6ZdtGyfIzfmjIMwRreLVMA25A/edit?usp=sharing
Also I was gonna say that, since the question has always been "is this as good and not better than what you can get on a really good OEM controller?", but I think it should be refined to "are all these things possible on a *particular* really good OEM controller?"
The difference for me is that there are some tradeoffs with OEM controllers that mean certain desirable qualities are mutually exclusive, like how the best dashback controller and the best empty pivot controller could never be the same (OEM) controller. I think any custom PCBs or third party controllers should keep that in mind, like it seems (not specifically with goomwave just in general) that people look at "well this controller has x, y, and z, which are all possible on OEM controllers" rather than asking, could you ever find one individual OEM controller capable or x, y, AND z, all at once?
I think most accessibility criticisms of Goomwaves are, at best, short sighted. There is no solution for the controller lottery other than goomwaves. I think some things should be added through ucf so the distinction isn’t so drastic, but goomwaves will eventually be available on demand for anyone willing to pay a static cost for the last, best controller that eliminates virtually all variability within gc controllers.
No, goomy doesn’t want to mass production of his controllers. He wants to keep them as they are. Even if you have the money, Goomy gets to decide who gets one and who doesn’t.
@@AzumaRikimaru .....just because you didn’t get off the que doesn’t mean he’s keeping them exclusive. I’m no one and I got one lol.
GameCube controllers are basically the beyblade of controller gear
wish all our controllers were made perfect from software like UCF. Like UCF with PODE
B0XX should be un-nerfed imo
I think what has a lot of people (many of whom are not even playing in tourneys) worried that the goomwave will create another barrier to entry into competitive smash in that you "need" this more expensive controller to play the game. What they aren't understanding is that that barrier already exists. The performance a mid level player gets out of a customized $300 dollar controller vs the $50 controller they bought in box on Ebay is already massive. The only difference between pre and post goomwave is the accessibility to the general public bringing that barrier into the spotlight for the regular population, while at the same time reducing the barrier.
tl;dr: People worried about the accessibility of competitive melee have been fooled into thinking that the controller barrier doesn't exist at mid level because controllers are currently so inaccessible for the majority of players. The goomwave presents a problem for them in that it moves the perceived barrier from being this nebulous top level issue, to being a more common issue at mid level because good controllers will be so much more accessible.
2:03 Planned Economy vs Market Economy
I guess a lot of melee players being college age or a bit later makes for a lot of planned enthusiasts. Or it’s also just Twitch.
"Instead of memeing about the things you don't understand, have an open mind and try to operate with nuance and subtlety and a desire to learn and promote intelligent discourse instead of you know..." -Toph
I think the only thing that really gives the goomwave and such controllers controversy in tournament, imo, is that it creates a paywall for entry regardless of skill. so for example, you could have tech skill to do anything, but from controller to controller , any oem controller could vary so much at the entry price range, or even a player that can only afford a decent controller every year is stuck with that or analog mods, like a variable cap.
But if you pay 300+ bucks you can dial it in to enable you to carry and reliably practice your tech skill.
However, this is true is other competition...you get what you pay for and if you want to seriously compete, the paywall is going to exist regardless
I think the aim should be for all controllers to have equal difficulty in conducting tech, something that is obviously difficult open to debate and subject to change. So I suppose the Goomwave should have settings within the reasonably feasible range of those on a regular controller?
I think this is a good reasoning to apply wrt Boxx nerfs too (though even harder to judge!).
From what I read, the goomwave can let you remap coordinates on the analog stick to make the threshold for uptilt wider, thus making it easier to perform. Not just about PODE
Yea see that's unfair. New controllers have always been trying to make shit easier like that or how smash boxx is just buttons so it makes advanced tech easy to do within day 1. Again, unfair ultimately. It's like adding new controllers to melee is like changing the top tiers on your mod and hoping people stay with it. They won't
where'd you read that LOL, the only coordinates that get "remapped" are notches getting calibrated to the correct spot for wd notches and firefox notches
No it does not.
@@DoomJoy666 How is that different from notches ? Or UCF? The overarching goal should be to kill the controller lottery
Cant we just start them legal then if theyre broken ban/fix them? Dont get why its complicated at all
The issue with goomwave is that he gets to choose who gets one and who doesn’t. It’s not a product anyone can’t just buy.
That’s very bad in terms of accessibility. Super unhealthy for the game.
Goomwaves are fine
"try to operate with nuance and subtlety" at first you think it an unwinnable uphill battle, then you remember we used to nail people on crosses for beliefs. The current chaos is humans coming to terms with the newly ubiquitous nature of information and having little ideas of how to filter them, combined with the ability to shout at others from across the globe and time who don't come to the same "conclusions".
i might get a lot of hate for this, but im looking forward to that tap jump rounding. it is infuriating when i DONT EVEN move my stick up and i do a random double jump, or when i flick down to fast fall and i double jump from snap back. i can’t be the only one this happens to on a VERY frequent basis. i literally switched to keyboard because of shit like this and now coming back to controller, it still drives me nuts
That's just snapback though. You don't need custom motherboards to fix that, just playing the controller lottery is probably cheaper than getting a goomwave
@@bobboberson8297 that is half of it, i don’t like tap jumping when i don’t even try to push up. simply moving left to right in the air will trigger it and it’s very annoying. after 2 shitty gamecube controllers in a row ive started looking into more consistent controllers like the wii pro controller and i can’t go back tbh
@@33kappa1 My general point is that having a broken controller isn't an argument for using/legalizing software mods for functioning controllers. Maybe I should have made that more clear.
@@bobboberson8297 im sorry but if literally every controller i’ve used had this issue then i wouldn’t be saying this. EVERY controller, even with my xbox 360 controller it happens. it’s just annoying and i never even try to push up on the stick, im just moving around in the air. it’s the sole reason i wanna switch to a B0XX type controller
@@33kappa1 now you are basically ignoring what I am saying and now you are even talking about completely different things than you were in your original comment. pretty much a pointless conversation now
why's the thumbnail a madcatz controller? i was hoping he was modding good components into the madcatz shell-- that controller feels comfortable as hell other than, you know, all the buttons and analogs.
If the PODE is configured via software, then why not just disallow that specific PODE range until stock players begin pulling it off consistently?
I don't get all the arguments over custom/alternative controllers. Like if the scene was being dominated by non traditional controller users then I would understand, but no one is using a boxx or goomwave to win big tourneys. So much argument over basically nothing.
Cody just won riptide with one
Is it really impossible to pivot down tilt on a boxx
If it's at all possible on a OEM controller it should be legal, otherwise people who want to do it will buy hundreds of controllers until they get one that can do it anyways.
I also feel like we can't reliably predict the implications of new controllers and I'd rather we wait and see if it's *actually* a big deal, otherwise we'll be running in circles forever like we already kind of have with box controllers
I just got into melee like... two weeks ago? So I'm pretty out of the loop on what this is all about. So like, if I ever get good and want to compete, will I have to spend a couple 100 bucks on a controller to keep up with other people since this controller makes techs easier to do?
If you're just getting into melee, I would just buy controllers from eBay/Amazon.
Yes. And even if you have the money, Goomy gets to choose who gets one and who doesn’t. Obviously pro players and people ordering extra mods and large orders - get priority over a no name casual player.
There was mention of the day one box being broken. Is this banned in most tournaments? Was this a version of the box that was publicly available / mass produced, and if so how could that be detected at an event by a T.O.?
No it's not banned
I think hax has a video that explains how it's checked or it's in one of mango's video featuring hax
What makes it so broken?
I literally have that madcats controller lmao 🤣 😂 💀
What if I play Melee on a crossup?
Jokes aside, I love my crossup because it helps with my tree trunk wrists. I think new controllers are super important as accessibly issues and I think it's not talked about in that way enough.
Nintendude left the panel and therefore talks or decisions about legality a while ago, then the panel disbanded. He only spoke up for ICs ban, didn't care about UCF vote, didn't say anything about big house/free melee.
I think only line that should be drawn is no macros. As long as every input corresponds to a real button press of some kind who tf cares what techniques are made easier or not. Let's push melee as far as it can go
I think allowing for MORE controllers is a better move than for allowing for fewer.
word.
EvilApple567 in chat! Verrrrrry respected Guitar Hero player, cool to see
"Toph calls for smash FIFA"
It’s easy for toph to say these will be accessible when he probably already has one or will soon
We should set a limit on cost and such. How am i as a hobby competitor supposed to participate and compete against stuff like this if it will require a large fee.
Been waiting for the day when someone makes a bootleg GC controller that's better than the original, and sells it for
I'm gonna pre-face this comment by saying I haven't watched this entire video, and I am overall in favor of controllers like the goomwave and the boxx
HOWEVER
I don't understand how the melee community in good faith can ban arduinos and turn around to sell people $2-400 controllers that do the same thing (or better). If you've actually read the SWT controller rules, you might understand what I mean. The only argument I hear for the arduinos is "well, you could cheat!" but like, have you seen a GCC with an arduino? You're not gonna know there's an arduino in there to begin with without opening the controller. People could be using them right now, and you'd never know. 2 of the 4 features the arduino were previously used for are already in UCF and while a 16.9° wavedash is cool, it's not what you want in every situation (and you still have to get close to the input for it to be auto-corrected), and a 1.0 dash input is technically possible (and hard to notice), so good luck catching somebody for that... and digital inputs can get it anyways.
Specifically, I dislike that the controller rules *heavily* favor digital controllers. It puts the regular GCC in a place where notches are effectively king (and a notched controller is expensive). No macros, no passthrough, every button can only correspond to 1 action. Digital controllers? They can get around this with buttons to *modify* a inputs, something that is explicitly banned on analog controllers. I can not, for example, add a button to my GCC to change my down input to, say 33° (loose arbitrary example. There is a limit to the angles you are allowed to use on digital inputs). I can, however, buy a notched controller with this angle (and other banned digital angles) for $400.
It's very disingenuous. The melee community has a cost-effective solution sitting in their lap and they think spending hundreds of dollars on a controller is a better alternative. Instead they're selling people expensive solutions and banning the cost-effective choice because people *might* use it to cheat. It's not even impossible to show up to a local with a first-gen b0xx and use banned angles, there's a guy in my scene who does this. He could play in online tournaments with it too, what are they gonna do inspect his controller?
And I'm going to say it straight up. Some of my information might not be correct. If it's not, feel free to correct me. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just believe everything barring macros and turbos should be allowed. If you're going to sell a $400 notched controller as "the way to play the game", you might as well go full tilt and let people play the game for cheaper. The barrier to mid to high level melee should not be money.
GOATed thumbnail
Almost 2 weeks ago I was at the nightclub (nyc local) and I told some smashers that we really need a central governing body of melee similar to the United States Chess Federation.
No no, no ban. Why should someone be able to be able to find a shooting star of a oem controller but I have to play with one that can't do the same functions... Goomwave just allows for the best of what's available. If I had a fight stick that side something different than my competition the fgc would flip. Not saying melee isn't fgc.
I still think that more controllers is fine, until they start making things ultimately easier to perform, at that point you begin to have an unfair advantage. Just like in FPS comp games they don't allow custom controllers due to trigger guards and shit
Could you cite an example of any competitive console fps community banning trigger guards?
Here's to hoping panda still makes their controller. I don't need anything fancy but it seems like to get a controller that works minimally as intended you have to first find an OEM and then hope its a good one or you have shell out hundreds of dollars. All I ask is to be able to spend sub 100 dollars for a product I know will work as intended
i know this is old but phob 2 might be the solution, it’s gonna be far more affordable/easy to source parts for than the current phob since it’s not reliant on teensy’s and fixes a ton of vanilla gcc unreliability
@@bruhgaming15meleeisSOCOOL ironic currently having my controller converted to a phob. Can't wait
@@zevkurtzman8108 sick, one of my friends gifted me one cause he was building some for himself and to sell and its so nice
Y not make ucf limit everyone to .9875 or whatever it is
converting analog to digital is the problem with the box like controllers. Like there are too many issues that come from this and is the reason i want them banned
A big issue with this video (like the criticism it brings up) is it doesn't go into any actual information and is just talk. Toph brings up the points yeah Zhu, my friend, who has my Goomy controller, who I also talk to about what I want in my controller, can hit pivot dtilts with this controller, so keep it in.
Plus saying easier up tilt doesn't help pivot uptilt is funny
as always, acryte/negative with the sauce 2 years ahead of time
shout outs to the madcatz micro great conch
Now that we’re talking about controllers
Arnt the frame 1 and smash-box reprogrammable? Does that mean they can be changed to have cheater-sdi?
arent gc controllers just as exploitable
like all controllers can be cheated
@@woobiehastelly Yes anything is possible, but the boxx and GC controllers are specifically designed not to be re-programmable. I'm just wondering how easy would it be to get an unfair advantage on the other two tournament legal 're-programmable' controllers.
Is toph connected in any way to any of these mod controller makers?
The whole argument for not letting boxx players do pixel perfect wavedashes if they want to is just a giant scrubquote. The gamecube controller came out 200 years ago, let it die.
Never been this early in my life.
beautiful thumbnail
In the words of MF DOOM "if you cant understand it ban it"
Toph’s recommended yt vids look just like mine
Hey I loved the video and wanted to tell you the clickbait worked. I clicked cause I saw the crappy 3rd party controller in the thumbnail. Idk if you care but hey TH-camr stuff.
i do because I made this video's thumbnail :)
is that a madcatz
we made shield drops too easy with UCF
People actually play Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo GameCube with something other than the NubyTech Chainsaw Controller?
The CRAB!
should we ban hax?
imagine the only legal controller in the ruleset was a rip off mad catz
So ill throw a opinion in.
I am a casual fan, I play lots in my spare time but never practice tech.
I've always been good at games and when I play on slippi I win probably like 30-60 percent of my games depending on who I may be playing or how good im playing.
I hear all this background noise and its weird, for me who plays by just sitting down and playing at my computer with a free hour, I always wonder, how is it possible people don't turn around with lazer. Found out this video they got rid of snap back
After this video I am going, oh people put things in their controller to do technical stuff easier.
To me, thats something I would almost never have time for, I just play and watch melee in a spare hour I have here and there.
Its crazy that you guys are allowed to do so many custom things to your controllers.
I almost feel like gamecube controllers should just be illegal and we should all play on a box.
Seems alot less complicated lol
MY MAN
tldr, no we shouldn't
It’s simple: if the BOXX is legal, the goomwave should be too
more like, if notches are legal, then the b0xx & the goomwave should be legal
also, please don't use b0xx as a catch-all for box-style controllers. the frame1 has no nerfs to pivot tilts (b0xx doesn't allow pivot uptilt or downtlit) and the smashbox is literally completely un-nerfed, allowing you to program angles and switch between remapped profiles.
i love toph
We all agree Toph is the wisest person in all the Melee community, right?
He should TO. I'd be interesting to see which rules he supports and if he'd make any new ones.
Okay, Toph. We get it.
(kidding)
LMAOOOO that's NANDO XD
I think we should make it harder to wavedash on controllers, I just cant do it consistently
Goomwave DX*
IMO just play melee on emulators
all of these controller issues and the last barrier to entry for melee would be completely eliminated if they did that
"What abt nintendo" if nintendo is a worry then run finals on normal hardware because I doubt a guy on a ps5 controller is gonna be topping any time soon
emulators dont run the game as good as the wii and a crt
You get the same issues playing on emulators I'm fairly certain.
All controllers should be allowed. Artificially limiting everything to a controller which was designed before I was born just seems so limiting. There should ideally be 0 difficulty in getting the inputs you want to do in your brain done in the game. I don't care that using these decades old controllers take more skill to do whatever, just let people input what they want.
The controller in the thumb nail is so bad its the mad cats controller yuck
Panda dropped Wolfe? That’s bullllllshit my man is a legend.
remapping of buttons should not be anywhere near Melee. the Y and X buttons are jump, the L/R shield, and Z grab / light shield. if you are pressing different buttons for these inputs, it isn't Melee. imo
Goon
Smashbox is straight up cheating, but unfortunately, since they sponsor Summit, despite Dustin being a clown, people overlook the ludacris SOCD/customisation options. B0XX is kinda unfair, but at least Hax is completely aware of that fact and has regulated/updated patched nerfs. Like no 100/100 consistent max length wavedashes/ the ability to pivot uptilt /holding left + spamming right for insanely quick dash dances/ semi-consistent SDI on fox upair, with no timing. Not to mention the placing of the up button on smashbox is extremely unergonomic.
I say this as a long time smash fan, who felt inclined to pick up Melee (despite it having *old fashined graphics*) after watching Apex 2015 unfold on twitch. The salty suites. The Leffen story line. The Kanpekina PPMD victory. THAT is what smash is all about. I have owned both a smashbox and an R1 B0XX (without the extra 2 FGC buttons on the top layer for LS toggles). I sold both of them, since they were heavy duty on my weak wrists. I have reverted to good old GCC. I bought a 150USD Nintendo Switch GCC after not enjoying either box experience. Little did I know that UCF does not fix snapback. I could not play my dual main spacies throughout the whole of 9 month slippi unranked I played. Instead I developed a slower Marth/ Trolly AF G&W, which I used on an alt to shit on newer players as to help alleviate my COVID frustration (Sorry to everyone I BMed) Also, my nintendo GCC 'brand new ultimate' had such a shitty dpad, that it makes the Slippi chat features completely unviable. I once finished a lovely 45 minute sesh with a random EU fox that was slightly better than me. We dittoed, (i played despite the fact that most nairs were back flips undershoots (due to snapback) and that walking/turn around uptilt was hugely inconsistent). Anyways, they had to go. I tried to GG, but accidently got a 'lol' then when i tried to put in another input, it spat out another ranodm BM message. They GGed twice, then quite out before my RNG BM pissed them off too much.
Anyways, I think button remapping on GCC should be banned. I think smashbox should be ceased. It sucks, it's cheating and most players abuse it by emulating B0XX style control layout, without the nerfs. I think B0XXs actually need to be checked. I have been in hospital for 3 months and cultivated a HPLaptop Keyboard falco for .5-6hrs per day vs a lv1 Falcon, Armada style. It doesn't take a genuis to realise that digital inputs are fucking broken. I just use a 45 degree WD, and have no modifiers. I deem a HP laptop keyboard aimed at Uni Students to be OP, so why the fuck can ppl pick up a box and cheat? Also, why do box players feel so special? They are usually so proud of the fact they wasted 300USD that they add it to their Twitter/Twitch handle. I transitioned to Boxx cos my hands are sore AF. Noobs just switch cos they like Hax$, and think it'll make them better/define them as that local player with a quirky, sexy looking conch. In reality it takes around 9 months to adapt to a B0XX style, at which point you feel dirty about using it cos it's fucking BROKEN.
Ban Smashbox, have a professional board evaluate B0XX/Frame 1 nerfs (which I highly commed for being self-imposed). The B0XX discord is incredible. A great community of smash nerds, debating WD angles and the ethics of a falco ledgedash/ true 1.0 dash left/right.
The 'Shitbox' community is not great imo.
Never used or experience a Frame 1, but seems gud.
Ban Remapping.
Encourage open/honest discussion (emphasis on HONEST) about controller mods/box controllers.
I clicked