Tekken player here. This video really goes to show how technical melee is. In Tekken, a box is slightly better in every way, but it's a small issue. You get better at techniques that make up a portion of the game's depth. In melee, those techniques are intermingled with every aspect of the game. It's interesting
It's also character specific. If you pick kazumi the benefit is probably only bf moves. If you pick a Mishima or a 2d character there's way more benefit in comparison
Decades long melee player here. I play against boxx's all the time. Lowkey its the same way in melee. No need to over complicate. People just flip out.
@@LoneStarVII yeah the same thing goes for a lot of fighting games. A lot of people that play charge characters prefer hitbox over a fight stick, myself included. Obviously i play other characters and my main in strive for example is zato so there's not even any charge moves with him but the little small techniques that have an advantage if you use a certain controller are nowhere near as pivotal as they are in melee. Having more galint from perfect ledgedashes on an unnerfed boxx is huge
I think it mostly comes down to smash's great use of analogue. In most fighting games analogue inputs suck and you wouldn't dream of using them over the d-pad if you playing on a controller. Where as the gamecube stick feels as accurate as a dpad, but with more utility. As variable movement speeds is really important for a platform fighter where movement is key. Also tilt attacks makes use of it also. And also I love that the gc controller has an octagonal gate. And the snap back it's great much like an arcade stick. Alot of these issues are with melee itself with the frame windows on dashing being really tight and the lack of a buffer input system meaning if you miss it nothing happens. So alot of these fixes are about widening that window. As it wasn't an issue before when everyone found it difficult to hit them. But now the box controllers are coming out that can do it easily the controllers are falling behind. Which is why they want to change dash back from one frame to a 3 frame window.
I love Cody but watching this back it’s really obvious how he talks in absolute terms a lot. “You don’t understand” “you don’t have valid points” a lot of his opinions are very strong and will rub people the wrong way. Hang out in his stream a lot tho and he’s a good genuine dude
yeah i've noticed that too and I fall into that type of talking a lot too, i find it tends to happen after you are larping on about the same points and no one listen for a period of time, which sounds like what he's experiencing here
Z jumping and box legality are honestly straw mans at this point. Who is seriously considering banning either of these after they've been in constant use for YEARS?? Imo the conversation needs to be completely about dbooc, 1.03 SDI behavior, and so on. (And Nintendo, but fuck em) That's what community leaders need to have a panel on. The ONLY reasons we're still stuck on boxes and Z jump is because the average smasher doesn't care about details and just wants a spicy argument, and because Z jump and box are represented by personalities (IBDW, Hax) who can have fights. People are so scared to interact with Hax it's amazing. Respect to IBDW for even using his name and allowing him in chat. Regardless of if you think he's a menace to society (he isn't), if you value this game, you need to take his ideas in 1.03 seriously. The die is cast. Are we really going to toss out valuable ideas and work because we're terrified of giving an ounce of legitimacy to He Who Shall Not Be Named? Take the ideas from 1.03 one at a time like IBDW says. This is the actual way forward for the community. Then have a panel discussion for each in turn. It's so obvious it hurts
Childish nonsense. People are even afraid to like/reply to your comment. I agree though. It's so simple I don't even understand what we've been talking about for years. Deranged children.
Appreciate the sanity keep it up! All this discussion will not lead to anything and Hax is a national treasure to the melee community and people shouldn’t turn their backs on him for his one mistake.
No changes to the control scheme should be allowed. If melee was an arcade game with gcc's coming out of the cabinet you wouldnt be able to change things. Other controllers should be allowed. But they need to match the gcc shape, and its layout. If you have bigger/smaller hands shell scaling should be allowed. If you allow changes to the layout then you can't have a strong argument against other changes to it either.
14:05 reminds me of blue clay courts in tennis. New tech is introduced all the time in sports lowkey. From the sharkskin swimsuits to modern running shoes, game changing, and sometimes game failing tech does come around. Also, the guitar hero controller guy should be tournament legal and im prepared to fight over it lol
It ain´t sanity though, he´s just a very stubborn guy. Which is probably the reason he got so good at the game but a bit of humility wouldn´t hurt everyonce in a while😒
This guy is in a crazy echo chamber. Im not saying he's necessarily wrong about most of the topics here but the way he's so quick to say oh all these people don't know what they're talking mang0 doesn't know what he's talking about these people are all misinformation. Relax buddy you're head's gonna explode
Cody really needs to learn how to calmly articulate his points. When people yell emotionally about something, it just looks bad; regardless of credibility. His "know-it-all", "you don't understand", approach will rub a lot of people the wrong way. A masterclass on how not to sway people and gain traction on your views. Just came off as an insufferable male Karen here. Zero concession to anything.
Yeah I mean, that's how he is. Nothing new and he's not gonna change. Dude thinks he's better than everybody, and I mean he is better than a lot of people lol, but he sucks at social interaction. Classic gamer.
@@gvulture1277 The melee community is petty af. There is a lot wrong with our once great community and a lot of reasonable people are leaving because of how immature the new generation is (generalization). Now they're left with an echo chamber that parrots whatever top players say and attacks people who disagree.
No no you don’t understand, he buys apparently six plus controllers a year, some up to 500 dollars, and also button remaps, something not available to most players, then he says he doesnt want the software mod.
This is a horrible false cause argument lmao. The whole reason why iBDW is so cautious about 1.03 is based on a lot of complicated factors regarding how tournament Melee needs to be conduced for the health of the competitive scene as a whole (Nintendo, justified skill barriers, unforseen consequences to value rounding, etc). If you enjoy 1.03 as a casual, or even a local grinder, that's great, Hax definitely knows a lot about Melee's mechanics on a technical level. But to ad hominem as if iBDW doesn't actually have valid concerns about the longevity of tournament Melee in a hypothetical world where we instantly adopted 1.03 en masse is so bad faith, and kinda cringe.
@@172rkgk "cringe" is cringe. The reason it's hard to take him seriously is because he uses crazy expensive controllers that only a few people have access to, and remaps his buttons without that ever being "tested for years and voted on by a panel". It would only hurt him to level the playing field, and we all know his main goal is to win at a videogame. With that said, he can't just come out and say that, which is why he adopts the arguments he does. The reason we don't believe him is because his actions contradicts those arguments - such as the button remapping example.
The defense I'll give to mang0 is that in the YT vid where he covers that he thinks Z Jump is dumb, the editors made sure to keep in how he said he doesn't really know enough about it. That being said, you're right. A lot of people are going to overlook what he said there just because he gave his opinion as a popular streamer and player of the game. Sheeple consume a majority of people in general, they are just going to follow what others say instead of getting their own opinion.
But having a popular opinion doesn't mean you just followed what a pro said. Now it's just going to be "You only agree with that because mang0 said it" and no discussion will happen because you've made up who that person is in your mind already. It's a lose/lose. It's like a pro saying, "Well, I'm a pro at this game. So, no matter what, I'm right. You can't have the correct opinion because you're not top 10 in the world".
i like how consistent you are with your stances, and how they all seem to serve keeping the community alive. accessibility. don't rule by one person. don't use things that get us banned. is there a history of all the mods that have been tested / implemented?
I wonder if its possible to like measure the "actuation" force needed to move the stick on a gcc, and translate that into a linear analog switch on box or something along those lines. Still have no idea why anybody thought it was ok to just let box have digital stick inputs Also 7:35 this is so true, alot of the people who use boxx don't even hold the actual controller in the correct ergonomic way, you're supposed to have your wrists hover above the boxx but alot of people rest their wrists on it which is redundant if your reason to switch is just for hand pain
> Every possible modification should be carefully tested before being brought to the competitive landscape >also Z jumping is fine don’t look too deep into it Cody my guy, I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong, but this wasn’t your most eloquent rant.
there is nothing to look into regards z jump, its literally just a more comfortable claw grip with the same advantages, its nothing compared to the advantages of rectangle controllers
Ngl, I find this debate a little silly. Why does it matter "how" the inputs are done provided every player draws from the same bank of inputs (e.g. no macros)? I understand folks like their melee "pure", but anything that allows players (especially those with disabilities) play the game is good. Full stop. I understand dashbacks, waveshine, a whole bunch of stuff is easier on a box, but so long as no macros are used I don't care. Besides, for 99% of players its a matter of comfort and familiarity. I mean, shoot, I switched from pad to box in tekken, but still play melee with my pad.
You can abuse double inputs to make faster movement patterns into alternating patterns on 2 hands instead of 1 handed patterns. This wouldnt be a macro, but is still considered cheating in the VSRG scene.
To be honest. The only mods that would be allowed are the ones that fix the shortcomings of a gcc. The only rule that should be enforced is: If you pick up a random gcc at a family members house your mapping should be the same. So no boxx, no keyboards. Only gcc's. But they dont have to be oem, They can be phob that replicates gcc as closely as possible. This also means z jump isnt allowed.
Okay so he says that boxes should be balanced around the gamecube controller but then at 6:35 that tap jump shouldn’t be removed, then I don’t know how you would go around it because boxes by nature don’t have the limitations on a lot of actions imposed by tap jump existing.
I'm personally trying to learn on my DIY knockoff Frame1 (because I'm poor). Just for longterm hand health. But I don't attend tournaments that often and I'm not that good anyway. So if my DIY controller got banned, I don't think I'd be too upset. I mainly just play with the homies once a week anyway and some occasional slippi.
i think the diff is that we fixed shield drop in such a way that combats advantages in some oems, and making dbooc 2 frames would do that too, but 3 frames just makes it free and dbooc is (or at the time of this vid was) a 3 frame input on box. not everyone has played on a b0xx, but its super easy on b0xx
>makes the jump from inarguable #3, unable to overcome the two above him to win a major as soon he gets z jump >insists it isnt any better than claw >pays $500 per controller, has a sponsor and a fairly succesful full time stream >insists z jump cannot be a software mod >recieves reasonable criticism >gets mad and bans people >is trying to talk about a serious topic >cant help himself from bragging about his fucking massive hands lmao vintage ibdw
1) that's called skill 2) he literally explained that it is just a way to not get hand pains 3) every smash player pays that much for a controller that is adequate to play with at the highest level of skill 4) this one can be explained with #2 5) I didn't see him ban anyone, but that's cause I didn't watch the stream this came from 6) how is talking about a serious topic a bad thing is anyone's guess 7) How does someone explaining that their hands are too big and that they need to modify their controller to get less hand pain means they are bragging?
I already said this in a comment-chain here, but while we might like 1.03, iBDW is right to be concerned or even worried about the community just jumping into it without Nintendo's approval. Nintendo has been known to fuck with the community over the smallest of things, and has shown to have a MAJOR dislike with modified versions of their games, as we have seen with Project M/+. 1.03 is really cool, but we will never see tournaments were it is allowed because of the high risk of Nintendo getting involved and suing any tournaments that allow it, as 1.03 is (essentially) a modded version of Nintendo's game. And if they don't like it, it could basically destroy the community in pieces, or leave it in a dark age, which is the last thing anyone wants. Like it or not, if we don't have a clear confirmation from Nintendo that we can use it, then don't expect for anyone to take 1.03 as a serious way to fix all our problems, because it is most likely that it will only make an even worse problem that potentially destroys the community in a major way. I think a better alternative would just be to update UCF, but that's just me
I like the idea of a group of people, but you run into the issue of who puts together this group. I agree the Kadano should be on there, and PTAS is a good inclusion, but who else, and who chooses this and gives them authority, and what if TOs don't follow the ruleset because they don't want to. Thanks for this video, left some good things to think about.
Well, you gotta have TOs from majors. If the biggest tournaments agree to a rule set then everyone else falls in line. Wobbling used to be a regional thing then people realized if they didn't allow wobbling in their region it would leave their region's best players at a disadvantage in majors and it became universally allowed then later on universally banned. No one plays PAL anymore so that European players aren't at a disadvantage when they play in NA Majors. Melee is ready for an organized committee and universal rulesets. People care too much to leave it to chance.
13:49 is such a horrible take. Normal sports don't have inherent bugs that can ruin the experience for no reason. No one has an issue dashing back in basketball like wtf
A better way to look at this point is aluminum bats in professional baseball. I'm not a baseball fan at all but ive heard that they tried to implement aluminum bats and it was basically an IRL buff so they had to revert to wooden bats. The point is, a proper organized sport doesn't just make snap decisions to change certain equipment or rules, they need to be tested thoroughly.
@@Cerbiz The issue is that the wooden baseball bat has had 0 inherent issues aside from occasionally breaking, which is to be expected. There aren’t players that have modded bats that perform better than any of their teammates, or the opposing team. It’s a standard bat that everyone uses. IBDW literally uses a like $500 controller that outperforms any stock controller on the market. THAT also wouldn’t be allowed in professional sports. This is like if everyone in baseball had to hand carve sticks to use, while some people paid to have theirs made by professionals. Then suddenly, the baseball bat came out. Everyone with their shitty sticks says it’s great, but the people with their nice custom sticks get mad cause they had spent $500 to no longer have an advantage. Even though the baseball bat is superior in every way than the stick, people with the professionally made sticks are the only people complaining and keeping it from becoming standard. Average hand carved stick guy is still screwed in the end.
@@33kappa1 I get the issue. I was just clarifying why the timestamp you pointed out isn't really a horrible take because it's true. Any pro sport has to test stuff out before implementation. I only mentioned baseball because it uses an external tool to parallel a controller and i happen to know a few fun facts about it. Also there ARE cases of modified bats. Players would put cork in their bats for faster swings or whatever. Obviously that was considered cheating so maybe the melee community should take a few notes from that and standardize their dumb controllers.
They've banned specific shoes from the NBA because they were proven to give an unfair advantage to players who used them. And like, I'm trying to learn box. I can admit it has advantages. I'm just doing it for personal hand health and im bad at the game anyway.
@@outdatedboat My point is that a modded out controller that’s legal is already leagues better than a stock controller, which is what the majority of the community will use. To act like the B0XX is any different is some pro mental gymnastics. Putting your stick in a notch is way easier than a specific 4 button combination, learning Z jump is way easier than learning a box. B0XX exists as a healthier alternative that’s still cheaper than modded controllers. When people have paid advantages in there controller already, why lock out people that physically need the controller? In this case, IBDW’s controller is just like those basketball shoes that got banned. It provided an unfair advantage that not everyone has, so therefore it was made illegal. If the majority of top players already use crazy expensive custom controllers, then why is a wrist friendly ergonomic controller off limits? I play both digital and controller, and despite playing keyboard for the past year, I’m still almost as good on a stick. Digital controllers will always have this downside that they are just way more complicated and prone to mis-input. It’s not like you learn a box and are just inherently better than controller players. It’s just different
you actually can make control swaps stealthy. just press two buttons + an additional non-remappable one and it swaps them like CSS rumble switch. tada and speaking of hax he has good ideas and a great grasp on the game mechanics concerning controls but god damn his ego and bias are so enormous it seems like an impossible person to converse/work with. worst part about 1.03 and b0xxes or whatever is that he insists on being THE ONE spearheading these things. ibdw and hax were having 2 different conversations with themselves lol as for getting a panel together for figuring out furthering UCF / box rulesets, i agree that is definitely what should happen but i don't think it will until more people get hella good on box and the discussion becomes desperately warranted. and as for the digital+analog issue, macros ban, 1 button por input limit, op inhuman pixel perfect tech angles ban and a lot of the issues pointed out by ibdw - the SWT ruleset is pretty thorough and covers a lot of ground in terms of disallowing these things (as a chatter pointed out). it just doesn't come up since boxes are pretty rare to begin with especially in top level, so no one checks or complains. some of these hard limiters could also be implemented stealthily at a software-level (though it might not be easy) which would be ideal. i still think it's completely reasonable to consider further changes to standardize box and controllers, ofc.
Cody I agree with just about everything your saying. That being said... I'd like to play on GCC but UCF, Hax$, and the community need to work together to create a cohesive and complete fix to round out and balance the GameCube controller to function properly. If the community is too hard headed it to do so I will switch to boxx. As someone coming from traditional fighting games for 4 years into melee is shocking that people would accept the lack of ability to do something as vital as dashing back of a crouch. I have no desire to play a game where I am punished for doing the right thing in the long term.
God this dude has some ass music taste, but overall I agree with his stances, and wish there was some sort of official fully transparent (livestreamed) panel amongst top community figures from every category.
What is the difference between giving dashback and dashback out of crouch a bigger window? Aren't both done for the sake of consistency? I guess one difference could be that 100% of OEM controllers had inconsistent DBOOC, but
The issue with controllers really comes down to accessibility imo Even relatively tame fixes are FUCKING expensive. I got a discounted Phob MOTHERBOARD with no labour costs for $120 + $45 for Cherry MX Blue R button On top of a 5 dollar tactile Z, My controller (excluding cosmetics and ergonomics) costs $180CAD. Now personally I am insane, and way more willing to spend $180CAD on a game I spend at least like 3 hours a day playing. But I also happen to play a fuckton of splatoon using the switch pro controller which costs about half the price my current gamecube controller costs at $90CAD The absolute insanity that this game costs is so limiting for players who are trying to get into smash bros, and this game already inherently is beginner unfriendly with its buffer system being non-existent, only having a handful of viable characters, and requiring reaction times and finger speed above the average Ultimate player
Look at Tekken. You should be able to have different controllers as there are benefits to both. It's not like by picking up a Box or Z jump you're already top 200.
Cody's not that type. He needs time to plan a conversation. Plus this topic affects his livelihood. I get it. It would've made him look like a baby to talk with hax
There is one thing that I hate about Z jumps and nobody is talking about it. I know im in the minority , but I MUCH prefer jumping with X rather than Y, and all of these z jump conversation talk about switching Z with X , which I would hate. I would MUCH rather be able to chose which button to swap with. If possible , Id rather have R grab and Z jump or even R jump and Z grab. I only shield and wavedash with L so I dont need R , and I prefer to use X to jump with A attacks, and Y to jump with specials.
Melee is better on a b0xx and one day our gcc will break and there won't be replacements. If you want melee around for another 20 years it's time to accept change.
Backwards logic. There are more ways to buy gcc today than when the gamecube first came out 20 years ago. If there's a market (people playing melee), there will be GCCs.
Very interesting and healthy discussion I think. IBDW being the academic here, and Hax being the entrepreneur. The latter pushing forward with changes that can potentially improve the game, and the former wanting more testing and discussion via a panel to avoid causing new issues.
I don't think it's very nuanced how you talk about how digital is faster than analog therefore b0xx broken. The difference is sooo negligible, and you don't mention the ways that a b0xx is hardcoded to be significantly worse than GCC.
@@zerosabs3603 I know, frankly I don't take either side on the z jump debate. I had just recently watched mang0's latest video and in that video he said something almost identical to the comment here lol - I thought it was funny because of what Cody said in the video
my opinion on the matter is that b0xx is better and that's a good thing trying to "balance controllers" for proper inputs is just going to hold back the community back
B0xx has some advantages yes but also has problems. You could be faster by a frame sometimes but you will never perfect wavedash or do half the angles the idbw is capable of doing on gcc
Comparing this to Steve ban in Ult makes it funny. The way he goes on about how the people who decide these things should be people who actually know shit about it
person that only plays ssbu. Honestly should be based on the Boxx, boxx style controller. it's so expensive to find a GameCube controller that is not shit. I see the price of a custom one( I do believe it is worth that amount) for +200 and the stick or frame wears down. The box is so convenient and easier to DIY if you want to make your own. My thoughts would be different if the panda controller came out(RIP)
"would a regular sport allow for new untested tech?" hmm, definitely not Olympic swimming and running... they didn't recently ban a type of suit and shoes for being too good, nope......
I've been using claw since i started and its not hard at all. I use x to jump and just slide my pointer finger downwards. i did get my button perforated though, makes it alot less taxing on the finger
The future of melee is jailbreaking our controllers. Its happening, and im not a fan of some of the stuff... but I see why and how its happening. Nothing can stop the movement. It will take over eventually. The only justifiable response is a list of reasonable moderation criteria that all controllers must meet
Either adapt with a boxx controller or play on an inferior one. The controller itself is just flat out superior numerically. Look what you have to do in order to compete with a boxx controller. It's like comparing an arcade stick to a hitbox. Hitbox is just better. Arcade controller feels more satisfying though. The boxx is so much harder to use than any GC controller. You have to learn how to play a piano vs just picking the damn thing up
In my opinion, Melee was created with the gamecube controller in mind. Meanwhile, the opposite is true for the B0XX. Thus, what is basically an arcade controller, was not intended for melee, and with that, the controller (only somewhat) breaks the game in a way, making actions way quicker to input. So yeah, please balance the controller before this gets out of hand.
I honestly hate alt controllers because most are ungodly expensiv so to be able to compete with top players you need to practice techinics like dashbacking harder than they do unless you spend money. In short, in makes the game P2W
i have big problem withm y hand (disgraphya so physicly can't be consitent and will always have delay on my moovement , and proprioception meaningi don't know where my ducking hand are precisly ) + i'm bad at melee as all new player is tap jumping just feel off and honestly i don't see with the ammount of mod there is removing it is saw as THAT much of a issue , but it make sens to not remove it i'll be moving to boxx for those reason , and when i start to thing of how it technily lower the barrier to entry , i'm thinking taht yhea tehre a a problem 1st think of what the ideal(for human) and optimal (TAS) way to play melee would be , then lower the shit to get close to waht is now and would be both accesible and fair , making ground rule , then balance every controller arroudn taht standart you know like every game ,and tolls ever standart make everything easier
@@clap5108 Box can for sure do some nutty things way easier than a controller, but I think a point a ton of people miss is that learning a box is incredibly hard. I'm trying to learn Frame1 after playing on GCC for 10 years. It's like fully rewiring your brain. It takes a stupid amount of time. But, like I said, box def has advantages once you get used to it. I won't even try to deny that. But I personally just wanna keep my hand health. I'm not ever going to be good enough to be a serious tourney threat anyway.
Why aren't you allowed to remap buttons in melee? Back in SF4 people remapped their sticks so they could take advantage of a bug and could make one of the hardest things in the game twice as easy
Ibdw channeling Scar energy. Thinking about the collective first, not getting swayed from core philosophy of going slow. Seeing the value in community decisions.
13:56 Not true actually. Track and Field has gone through this with Blade runners. Also in sports in general, trans competition also falls into this category. It is always a balance of trying to balance accesibility with consistent competition.
Of for fuck sake let everyone map any move to any button, custom controls should be a thing for every game- if they let you break the game fuck it, it’s not like you’re using macros, just playing the game as it is with more comfortable controls. Also I will never understand why melee players vehemently defend tap jump when it is the single worst mechanic that every future smash realized people would want to disable. Dont care if you can get used to it, I want controls that are intuitive and comfortable.. jesus christ..
Agreed. Most of these top players (this guy included) are children in terms of maturity and mentality. Controllers are just supposed to be mechanisms for delivering inputs to the game. No reason to ban anything that isn't a programmed macro spamming multiple inputs with one button.
I could do 30kps vibros in VSRG's if that was a universally held standard on every game. Just bind the same input on multiple keys and its broken af. There's a reason people argue about this
@@CommandoBlack123 people argue about it because of poor game design. If changing control scheme breaks a game then the game is poorly made. I want pure chaos, let all control schemes be allowed, let it all come crumbling down, AHAHAHAHAHA. Excuse me now, I need to get back to drinking.
WTF he wont even talk to him because of the ban? What is he, a pariah? Jeeeez. This community is low key super cancer. Unless theres some BIZARRE and disgusting rule that you cant even talk to him while competing that I dont know about???? WTF is this.
@@lewisbirkett4428 biggest thing is about Nintendo hating mods on software. But I see what ibdw is saying about meta implications. Maybe it will make Melee a lot more boring if Sheik and Falcon can CC chain grab for free, idk
@@jebril "CC chain grab for free"?? My brother in Christ, CC reaction tech chasing (def not a chain grab) is NEVER going to be free. That shit is hard and takes stupid fast reaction time. That's why there's only a handful of players who do it well, and regularly. But yes, 1.03 is a big enough change that I could easily see nintendo dropping the ban hammer on tourneys for using it. And Hax for sure was making some bigass reaches with his reasonings for stuff in Cody's chat. And this is coming from someone learning a Frame1 (3d printed DIY because I'm poor) for my own hand health. And I already have an amazing GCC from Rienne.
The obvious thing to do is ban boxx style controllers from major tournaments. You can allow them on slippi or locals. No one has a “right” to play melee competitively. Its just ridiculous.
@@milkvolume1711 tf that suppose to mean and people at locals can ruin / influence top level meta i don't think you know what you are talking about if you let b0xxs be banned at majors but not locals it ruins top level meta and b0xx's don't ruin top level meta as is if you ban from majors but not locals it ruins top level meta cuz there will be less players so it will be less interesting less meta will evolve and it will slowly kill 1 / 5 of the players who play melee you don't acc know what top level meta is. clown
How has it come this far? A controller which gives statistical and technical advantages in comparison to the controller in which the game was designed to play with should never have made it to tournaments, regardless of its ergonomics for people. If you're hands are fucked so you need to use a boxx or fighting stick, then you need to stop playing melee competitively. Play for fun and take care of yourself. Don't enter tournaments where it costs money and people lose because of advantages that cannot be matched with a gcn conch.
The reason this even is a discussion is because we don't just play on BASE controllers. Everyone with a modded controller is spoiled and uses their money to be better. Money should never be a barrier in this game.
The problem with this, and why mods and UCF became a thing in the first place, is because all base controllers aren't created equal and before UCF it was essentially a lottery if your controller functioned right and people would either buy a shitload of them hoping to eventually get a good one or would be forced to alter their playstyle around their controller's deficiencies.
@@laskeese7930 you are absolutely right. UCF leveled the playingfiels somewhat. I still thing it very hypocritical to push for remapping buttons, and be against removing tap jump. Look at Ultimate. That game has both and it's not an issue. The issue for me arises once you limit certain base remapping options and not others. At least that is my issue with IBDW's opinio. Who cares anyway tho it'll be legal and even more passionless frameperfect glue eaters will riddle my favorite game.
Full controller remaps would be hype as shit and sustainable controllers would be sick. Then the GameCube controller could really compete in its own way with the boxes.
@@Shenkie this just brings us back to the accessability issue though. Remaps for melee are happening by reprogramming the controller so buttons are remapped inside the controller, ultimate allows you to do it as an in game setting. If they say "ok all remapping is allowed in melee" now everyone who has access to those controllers has a massive advantage over people who don't.
@@laskeese7930 you are absolutely right. I seem to recall some melee mods where you could remap. But i'm not a fan of making additional fees for competing. Soccer requires a ball and preferrably legs but that's it. You shouldn't want rocket powered shoes for it.
His takes on this are so dumb. It's all just his ego. "use my mod" and "use a B0XX". Instead of addressing the root issues. Rienne in the chat (controllermother) was being way more reasonable about shit, and selling modded controllers is her job. When Hax was going off about how UCF sucks, Rienne said something like "UCF bridges the gap between good and bad GCCs, not analog to digital". But Hax will seemingly never concede that the box controllers have huge advantages. And I'm saying this as someone learning Frame1. I know it's pretty busted. But I'll never really be a tourney threat and I just wanna keep my hand health.
Tekken player here. This video really goes to show how technical melee is. In Tekken, a box is slightly better in every way, but it's a small issue. You get better at techniques that make up a portion of the game's depth. In melee, those techniques are intermingled with every aspect of the game. It's interesting
I'm glad to see your perspective on this, as I've been curious on how much of an impact it has in other games compared to this one.
It's also character specific. If you pick kazumi the benefit is probably only bf moves. If you pick a Mishima or a 2d character there's way more benefit in comparison
Decades long melee player here. I play against boxx's all the time. Lowkey its the same way in melee. No need to over complicate. People just flip out.
@@LoneStarVII yeah the same thing goes for a lot of fighting games. A lot of people that play charge characters prefer hitbox over a fight stick, myself included. Obviously i play other characters and my main in strive for example is zato so there's not even any charge moves with him but the little small techniques that have an advantage if you use a certain controller are nowhere near as pivotal as they are in melee. Having more galint from perfect ledgedashes on an unnerfed boxx is huge
I think it mostly comes down to smash's great use of analogue.
In most fighting games analogue inputs suck and you wouldn't dream of using them over the d-pad if you playing on a controller.
Where as the gamecube stick feels as accurate as a dpad, but with more utility. As variable movement speeds is really important for a platform fighter where movement is key. Also tilt attacks makes use of it also. And also I love that the gc controller has an octagonal gate. And the snap back it's great much like an arcade stick.
Alot of these issues are with melee itself with the frame windows on dashing being really tight and the lack of a buffer input system meaning if you miss it nothing happens. So alot of these fixes are about widening that window. As it wasn't an issue before when everyone found it difficult to hit them. But now the box controllers are coming out that can do it easily the controllers are falling behind. Which is why they want to change dash back from one frame to a 3 frame window.
I love Cody but watching this back it’s really obvious how he talks in absolute terms a lot. “You don’t understand” “you don’t have valid points” a lot of his opinions are very strong and will rub people the wrong way. Hang out in his stream a lot tho and he’s a good genuine dude
yeah i've noticed that too and I fall into that type of talking a lot too, i find it tends to happen after you are larping on about the same points and no one listen for a period of time, which sounds like what he's experiencing here
bro quit law school too early. imagine talking like that in a courtroom💀
Z jumping and box legality are honestly straw mans at this point. Who is seriously considering banning either of these after they've been in constant use for YEARS??
Imo the conversation needs to be completely about dbooc, 1.03 SDI behavior, and so on. (And Nintendo, but fuck em) That's what community leaders need to have a panel on. The ONLY reasons we're still stuck on boxes and Z jump is because the average smasher doesn't care about details and just wants a spicy argument, and because Z jump and box are represented by personalities (IBDW, Hax) who can have fights.
People are so scared to interact with Hax it's amazing. Respect to IBDW for even using his name and allowing him in chat. Regardless of if you think he's a menace to society (he isn't), if you value this game, you need to take his ideas in 1.03 seriously. The die is cast. Are we really going to toss out valuable ideas and work because we're terrified of giving an ounce of legitimacy to He Who Shall Not Be Named?
Take the ideas from 1.03 one at a time like IBDW says. This is the actual way forward for the community. Then have a panel discussion for each in turn. It's so obvious it hurts
Childish nonsense. People are even afraid to like/reply to your comment. I agree though. It's so simple I don't even understand what we've been talking about for years. Deranged children.
Appreciate the sanity keep it up! All this discussion will not lead to anything and Hax is a national treasure to the melee community and people shouldn’t turn their backs on him for his one mistake.
@@breakfast1904 If you can even call it that.
No changes to the control scheme should be allowed. If melee was an arcade game with gcc's coming out of the cabinet you wouldnt be able to change things. Other controllers should be allowed. But they need to match the gcc shape, and its layout. If you have bigger/smaller hands shell scaling should be allowed.
If you allow changes to the layout then you can't have a strong argument against other changes to it either.
14:05 reminds me of blue clay courts in tennis. New tech is introduced all the time in sports lowkey. From the sharkskin swimsuits to modern running shoes, game changing, and sometimes game failing tech does come around.
Also, the guitar hero controller guy should be tournament legal and im prepared to fight over it lol
Poor Cody. I kept tuning back in every so often and the conversation was just going in circles as he gradually lost more and more sanity
It ain´t sanity though, he´s just a very stubborn guy. Which is probably the reason he got so good at the game but a bit of humility wouldn´t hurt everyonce in a while😒
Ultimate players remapping buttons per character.
Except that's built into the software of the game and not something gatekept by expensive modded controllers
hey guys, cody’s hands are MASSIVE btw.
Ban Cody's hands. They were obviously modded for Melee.
I'm a piano teacher and his hand span is definitely unfair haha
@@nibbity8356 a COMFORTABLE 12 span is inaane. Cody can hit those Rachmaninoff chords no problem lmao
ibdw:i cant talk too you because of the ban
also ibdw: argues with hax in chat
People aren't allowed to talk to the dude who made a new version to fix these problems? Melee scene is wack as fuck.
@@chungboislim2061 im sure IBDW was just caught off guard that was a little forward of Hax$ and i doubt ibdw is the most social guy.
@@chungboislim2061 That's not the reason he's banned. Lol
This guy is in a crazy echo chamber. Im not saying he's necessarily wrong about most of the topics here but the way he's so quick to say oh all these people don't know what they're talking mang0 doesn't know what he's talking about these people are all misinformation. Relax buddy you're head's gonna explode
Cody really needs to learn how to calmly articulate his points. When people yell emotionally about something, it just looks bad; regardless of credibility.
His "know-it-all", "you don't understand", approach will rub a lot of people the wrong way. A masterclass on how not to sway people and gain traction on your views.
Just came off as an insufferable male Karen here. Zero concession to anything.
Yeah I mean, that's how he is. Nothing new and he's not gonna change. Dude thinks he's better than everybody, and I mean he is better than a lot of people lol, but he sucks at social interaction. Classic gamer.
he's a baby boy and this video made melee look petty as f
@@gvulture1277 The melee community is petty af. There is a lot wrong with our once great community and a lot of reasonable people are leaving because of how immature the new generation is (generalization). Now they're left with an echo chamber that parrots whatever top players say and attacks people who disagree.
if someone spends $500 on a controller then says a free software mod that equalizes the playing field is not good, i'm not going to trust them
No no you don’t understand, he buys apparently six plus controllers a year, some up to 500 dollars, and also button remaps, something not available to most players, then he says he doesnt want the software mod.
@@Clashmaster0477 well it has to be a invisible mod cause nintendo
This sums up the hatred towards 1.03 in a nutshell. Maybe people understand what Hax was on about with authoritarian community leaders now.
This is a horrible false cause argument lmao. The whole reason why iBDW is so cautious about 1.03 is based on a lot of complicated factors regarding how tournament Melee needs to be conduced for the health of the competitive scene as a whole (Nintendo, justified skill barriers, unforseen consequences to value rounding, etc). If you enjoy 1.03 as a casual, or even a local grinder, that's great, Hax definitely knows a lot about Melee's mechanics on a technical level. But to ad hominem as if iBDW doesn't actually have valid concerns about the longevity of tournament Melee in a hypothetical world where we instantly adopted 1.03 en masse is so bad faith, and kinda cringe.
@@172rkgk "cringe" is cringe. The reason it's hard to take him seriously is because he uses crazy expensive controllers that only a few people have access to, and remaps his buttons without that ever being "tested for years and voted on by a panel". It would only hurt him to level the playing field, and we all know his main goal is to win at a videogame. With that said, he can't just come out and say that, which is why he adopts the arguments he does. The reason we don't believe him is because his actions contradicts those arguments - such as the button remapping example.
The defense I'll give to mang0 is that in the YT vid where he covers that he thinks Z Jump is dumb, the editors made sure to keep in how he said he doesn't really know enough about it. That being said, you're right. A lot of people are going to overlook what he said there just because he gave his opinion as a popular streamer and player of the game. Sheeple consume a majority of people in general, they are just going to follow what others say instead of getting their own opinion.
But having a popular opinion doesn't mean you just followed what a pro said. Now it's just going to be "You only agree with that because mang0 said it" and no discussion will happen because you've made up who that person is in your mind already. It's a lose/lose. It's like a pro saying, "Well, I'm a pro at this game. So, no matter what, I'm right. You can't have the correct opinion because you're not top 10 in the world".
i like how consistent you are with your stances, and how they all seem to serve keeping the community alive. accessibility. don't rule by one person. don't use things that get us banned.
is there a history of all the mods that have been tested / implemented?
I wonder if its possible to like measure the "actuation" force needed to move the stick on a gcc, and translate that into a linear analog switch on box or something along those lines. Still have no idea why anybody thought it was ok to just let box have digital stick inputs
Also 7:35 this is so true, alot of the people who use boxx don't even hold the actual controller in the correct ergonomic way, you're supposed to have your wrists hover above the boxx but alot of people rest their wrists on it which is redundant if your reason to switch is just for hand pain
I think something like actuation force would be different per controller
Not really possible.
try playing on a keyboard and you'll see why people think its ok
I’m okay with boxx because it’s healthier for your hands. I want melee to last so health is important
Just got the hand health part, I trust Cody is right about what he says
Also free hax
@@niceprofile-k6i FREE MY NIGGA YEAHHHH
All I took away from this is that iBDW must be really fucking good if he got into Eastman school of music
The nier automata ending music on top of the hax part was sick
> Every possible modification should be carefully tested before being brought to the competitive landscape
>also Z jumping is fine don’t look too deep into it
Cody my guy, I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong, but this wasn’t your most eloquent rant.
there is nothing to look into regards z jump, its literally just a more comfortable claw grip with the same advantages, its nothing compared to the advantages of rectangle controllers
@@fluentcoding
Like I said, I already agree with that. I just don’t think Cody explained himself well.
@@ClassicBentobox fyi he already explained it more than once in detail on stream
@@fluentcoding
In this specific video I feel he didn’t express himself well. It’s just light critique, relax.
@@ClassicBentobox some light critique, your initial comparison was really dumb
Ngl, I find this debate a little silly. Why does it matter "how" the inputs are done provided every player draws from the same bank of inputs (e.g. no macros)? I understand folks like their melee "pure", but anything that allows players (especially those with disabilities) play the game is good. Full stop.
I understand dashbacks, waveshine, a whole bunch of stuff is easier on a box, but so long as no macros are used I don't care. Besides, for 99% of players its a matter of comfort and familiarity. I mean, shoot, I switched from pad to box in tekken, but still play melee with my pad.
You can abuse double inputs to make faster movement patterns into alternating patterns on 2 hands instead of 1 handed patterns. This wouldnt be a macro, but is still considered cheating in the VSRG scene.
To be honest. The only mods that would be allowed are the ones that fix the shortcomings of a gcc.
The only rule that should be enforced is: If you pick up a random gcc at a family members house your mapping should be the same. So no boxx, no keyboards. Only gcc's. But they dont have to be oem, They can be phob that replicates gcc as closely as possible. This also means z jump isnt allowed.
i wish there were more resources on how to take care of your hands
Okay so he says that boxes should be balanced around the gamecube controller but then at 6:35 that tap jump shouldn’t be removed, then I don’t know how you would go around it because boxes by nature don’t have the limitations on a lot of actions imposed by tap jump existing.
I'm personally trying to learn on my DIY knockoff Frame1 (because I'm poor). Just for longterm hand health. But I don't attend tournaments that often and I'm not that good anyway. So if my DIY controller got banned, I don't think I'd be too upset. I mainly just play with the homies once a week anyway and some occasional slippi.
didn’t ucf make shield dropping way more consistent? shouldn’t we use the same logic to fix dbooc?
i think the diff is that we fixed shield drop in such a way that combats advantages in some oems, and making dbooc 2 frames would do that too, but 3 frames just makes it free and dbooc is (or at the time of this vid was) a 3 frame input on box. not everyone has played on a b0xx, but its super easy on b0xx
Hate to say this, but claw is still going to be necessary, and hand problems are still going to exist.
3:19 the hades music is so fucking perfect 😂
>makes the jump from inarguable #3, unable to overcome the two above him to win a major as soon he gets z jump
>insists it isnt any better than claw
>pays $500 per controller, has a sponsor and a fairly succesful full time stream
>insists z jump cannot be a software mod
>recieves reasonable criticism
>gets mad and bans people
>is trying to talk about a serious topic
>cant help himself from bragging about his fucking massive hands lmao
vintage ibdw
1) that's called skill
2) he literally explained that it is just a way to not get hand pains
3) every smash player pays that much for a controller that is adequate to play with at the highest level of skill
4) this one can be explained with #2
5) I didn't see him ban anyone, but that's cause I didn't watch the stream this came from
6) how is talking about a serious topic a bad thing is anyone's guess
7) How does someone explaining that their hands are too big and that they need to modify their controller to get less hand pain means they are bragging?
@@zenabompeg 2) He mentions to just stop playing when you get hand pains basically invalidating this point.
I already said this in a comment-chain here, but while we might like 1.03, iBDW is right to be concerned or even worried about the community just jumping into it without Nintendo's approval. Nintendo has been known to fuck with the community over the smallest of things, and has shown to have a MAJOR dislike with modified versions of their games, as we have seen with Project M/+. 1.03 is really cool, but we will never see tournaments were it is allowed because of the high risk of Nintendo getting involved and suing any tournaments that allow it, as 1.03 is (essentially) a modded version of Nintendo's game. And if they don't like it, it could basically destroy the community in pieces, or leave it in a dark age, which is the last thing anyone wants.
Like it or not, if we don't have a clear confirmation from Nintendo that we can use it, then don't expect for anyone to take 1.03 as a serious way to fix all our problems, because it is most likely that it will only make an even worse problem that potentially destroys the community in a major way.
I think a better alternative would just be to update UCF, but that's just me
He never got Hax in a call. That was his mistake.
I like the idea of a group of people, but you run into the issue of who puts together this group. I agree the Kadano should be on there, and PTAS is a good inclusion, but who else, and who chooses this and gives them authority, and what if TOs don't follow the ruleset because they don't want to. Thanks for this video, left some good things to think about.
Well, you gotta have TOs from majors. If the biggest tournaments agree to a rule set then everyone else falls in line. Wobbling used to be a regional thing then people realized if they didn't allow wobbling in their region it would leave their region's best players at a disadvantage in majors and it became universally allowed then later on universally banned. No one plays PAL anymore so that European players aren't at a disadvantage when they play in NA Majors. Melee is ready for an organized committee and universal rulesets. People care too much to leave it to chance.
13:49 is such a horrible take. Normal sports don't have inherent bugs that can ruin the experience for no reason. No one has an issue dashing back in basketball like wtf
A better way to look at this point is aluminum bats in professional baseball. I'm not a baseball fan at all but ive heard that they tried to implement aluminum bats and it was basically an IRL buff so they had to revert to wooden bats.
The point is, a proper organized sport doesn't just make snap decisions to change certain equipment or rules, they need to be tested thoroughly.
@@Cerbiz The issue is that the wooden baseball bat has had 0 inherent issues aside from occasionally breaking, which is to be expected. There aren’t players that have modded bats that perform better than any of their teammates, or the opposing team. It’s a standard bat that everyone uses. IBDW literally uses a like $500 controller that outperforms any stock controller on the market. THAT also wouldn’t be allowed in professional sports.
This is like if everyone in baseball had to hand carve sticks to use, while some people paid to have theirs made by professionals. Then suddenly, the baseball bat came out. Everyone with their shitty sticks says it’s great, but the people with their nice custom sticks get mad cause they had spent $500 to no longer have an advantage. Even though the baseball bat is superior in every way than the stick, people with the professionally made sticks are the only people complaining and keeping it from becoming standard. Average hand carved stick guy is still screwed in the end.
@@33kappa1 I get the issue. I was just clarifying why the timestamp you pointed out isn't really a horrible take because it's true. Any pro sport has to test stuff out before implementation.
I only mentioned baseball because it uses an external tool to parallel a controller and i happen to know a few fun facts about it.
Also there ARE cases of modified bats. Players would put cork in their bats for faster swings or whatever. Obviously that was considered cheating so maybe the melee community should take a few notes from that and standardize their dumb controllers.
They've banned specific shoes from the NBA because they were proven to give an unfair advantage to players who used them. And like, I'm trying to learn box. I can admit it has advantages. I'm just doing it for personal hand health and im bad at the game anyway.
@@outdatedboat My point is that a modded out controller that’s legal is already leagues better than a stock controller, which is what the majority of the community will use. To act like the B0XX is any different is some pro mental gymnastics. Putting your stick in a notch is way easier than a specific 4 button combination, learning Z jump is way easier than learning a box. B0XX exists as a healthier alternative that’s still cheaper than modded controllers. When people have paid advantages in there controller already, why lock out people that physically need the controller?
In this case, IBDW’s controller is just like those basketball shoes that got banned. It provided an unfair advantage that not everyone has, so therefore it was made illegal. If the majority of top players already use crazy expensive custom controllers, then why is a wrist friendly ergonomic controller off limits? I play both digital and controller, and despite playing keyboard for the past year, I’m still almost as good on a stick. Digital controllers will always have this downside that they are just way more complicated and prone to mis-input. It’s not like you learn a box and are just inherently better than controller players. It’s just different
UCF was a slippery slope
you actually can make control swaps stealthy. just press two buttons + an additional non-remappable one and it swaps them like CSS rumble switch. tada
and speaking of hax he has good ideas and a great grasp on the game mechanics concerning controls but god damn his ego and bias are so enormous it seems like an impossible person to converse/work with. worst part about 1.03 and b0xxes or whatever is that he insists on being THE ONE spearheading these things. ibdw and hax were having 2 different conversations with themselves lol
as for getting a panel together for figuring out furthering UCF / box rulesets, i agree that is definitely what should happen but i don't think it will until more people get hella good on box and the discussion becomes desperately warranted. and as for the digital+analog issue, macros ban, 1 button por input limit, op inhuman pixel perfect tech angles ban and a lot of the issues pointed out by ibdw - the SWT ruleset is pretty thorough and covers a lot of ground in terms of disallowing these things (as a chatter pointed out). it just doesn't come up since boxes are pretty rare to begin with especially in top level, so no one checks or complains. some of these hard limiters could also be implemented stealthily at a software-level (though it might not be easy) which would be ideal. i still think it's completely reasonable to consider further changes to standardize box and controllers, ofc.
If z jump isnt a major advantage then just ban it - surely the z-jumpers wont all complain right?
+1
Cody went to Eastman??? Or his piano teacher is from Eastman?
I've been mentionning for a while too that custom controller need to be banned or make 1.0.3 legal
Cody I agree with just about everything your saying. That being said...
I'd like to play on GCC but UCF, Hax$, and the community need to work together to create a cohesive and complete fix to round out and balance the GameCube controller to function properly. If the community is too hard headed it to do so I will switch to boxx. As someone coming from traditional fighting games for 4 years into melee is shocking that people would accept the lack of ability to do something as vital as dashing back of a crouch. I have no desire to play a game where I am punished for doing the right thing in the long term.
God this dude has some ass music taste, but overall I agree with his stances, and wish there was some sort of official fully transparent (livestreamed) panel amongst top community figures from every category.
hard agree on the music tbh. i think he just took someone's spotify playlist and ran with it
So cool to listen to a cheater talk about why it's totally OK for him to continue cheating, and then to call us stupid for disagreeing
What is the difference between giving dashback and dashback out of crouch a bigger window? Aren't both done for the sake of consistency? I guess one difference could be that 100% of OEM controllers had inconsistent DBOOC, but
Yea people have such brain rot about this issue.
The issue with controllers really comes down to accessibility imo
Even relatively tame fixes are FUCKING expensive. I got a discounted Phob MOTHERBOARD with no labour costs for $120 + $45 for Cherry MX Blue R button
On top of a 5 dollar tactile Z, My controller (excluding cosmetics and ergonomics) costs $180CAD. Now personally I am insane, and way more willing to spend $180CAD on a game I spend at least like 3 hours a day playing. But I also happen to play a fuckton of splatoon using the switch pro controller which costs about half the price my current gamecube controller costs at $90CAD
The absolute insanity that this game costs is so limiting for players who are trying to get into smash bros, and this game already inherently is beginner unfriendly with its buffer system being non-existent, only having a handful of viable characters, and requiring reaction times and finger speed above the average Ultimate player
Look at Tekken. You should be able to have different controllers as there are benefits to both. It's not like by picking up a Box or Z jump you're already top 200.
why wouldnt he call hax wtf
he didn't want to actually debate with real points, kept talking in circles over and over smh
@@33kappa1 no he was afriad of some pussy ass ban that makes no sense how it would effect his stream
Cody is scared
Because Haxx would calmly counter everything he's said unlike Cody who seems like a baby boy needs to scream at everyone
Cody's not that type. He needs time to plan a conversation. Plus this topic affects his livelihood. I get it. It would've made him look like a baby to talk with hax
There is one thing that I hate about Z jumps and nobody is talking about it. I know im in the minority , but I MUCH prefer jumping with X rather than Y, and all of these z jump conversation talk about switching Z with X , which I would hate. I would MUCH rather be able to chose which button to swap with. If possible , Id rather have R grab and Z jump or even R jump and Z grab. I only shield and wavedash with L so I dont need R , and I prefer to use X to jump with A attacks, and Y to jump with specials.
People aren't talking about it much because the main options for switching to z jump allow you to choose what button you swap it with.
Cody is on complete damage control. Holy shit.
IS IBDW A TRAINED PIANIST FROM EASTMAN???
Melee is better on a b0xx and one day our gcc will break and there won't be replacements. If you want melee around for another 20 years it's time to accept change.
Backwards logic. There are more ways to buy gcc today than when the gamecube first came out 20 years ago. If there's a market (people playing melee), there will be GCCs.
@@PatOnTheBack321 in 10 years it will be b0xxs and pandas
@@JAMman
I look forward to that future.
Unless Nintendo starts producing more controllers
@@ClassicBentobox they could surprise us with a new batch, but it's Nintendo so..
@@JAMman Still wouldnt buy new nintendo controllers. They are bad, and rng. The solution would be a community one.
Very interesting and healthy discussion I think. IBDW being the academic here, and Hax being the entrepreneur. The latter pushing forward with changes that can potentially improve the game, and the former wanting more testing and discussion via a panel to avoid causing new issues.
I don't think it's very nuanced how you talk about how digital is faster than analog therefore b0xx broken. The difference is sooo negligible, and you don't mention the ways that a b0xx is hardcoded to be significantly worse than GCC.
i fully agree with his opinion but because he is annoying i still want Z jump to be banned
Cody was right, any opinions mang0 has will be parroted by his fans lmao
@@youtubefrog2388 brother >3/4 of the top players say z-jump is broken and should be banned
@@zerosabs3603 I know, frankly I don't take either side on the z jump debate. I had just recently watched mang0's latest video and in that video he said something almost identical to the comment here lol - I thought it was funny because of what Cody said in the video
@@youtubefrog2388 but saying "Cody was right" is taking a side in this debate..
@@PatOnTheBack321 I was saying Cody was right about what he said about Mang0 fans, not about z jumping
my opinion on the matter is that b0xx is better and that's a good thing trying to "balance controllers" for proper inputs is just going to hold back the community back
"cody has massive hands"
B0xx has some advantages yes but also has problems. You could be faster by a frame sometimes but you will never perfect wavedash or do half the angles the idbw is capable of doing on gcc
Comparing this to Steve ban in Ult makes it funny. The way he goes on about how the people who decide these things should be people who actually know shit about it
person that only plays ssbu. Honestly should be based on the Boxx, boxx style controller. it's so expensive to find a GameCube controller that is not shit. I see the price of a custom one( I do believe it is worth that amount) for +200 and the stick or frame wears down. The box is so convenient and easier to DIY if you want to make your own. My thoughts would be different if the panda controller came out(RIP)
"would a regular sport allow for new untested tech?"
hmm, definitely not Olympic swimming and running... they didn't recently ban a type of suit and shoes for being too good, nope......
If tennis players were as big of babies as gamers, we'd still be using wood racquets and Rafael Nadals racquet would be banned from tournament play
I need to lie down and sit on my wrists if I play for a while. They pop.
12:50 Cody wants everyone to be on an evil playing field. He finally admits it.
I've been using claw since i started and its not hard at all. I use x to jump and just slide my pointer finger downwards. i did get my button perforated though, makes it alot less taxing on the finger
Cody doesn’t speak he squawks
Oh I didn't know you went to that school! Always wanted to go there. :/
The future of melee is jailbreaking our controllers. Its happening, and im not a fan of some of the stuff... but I see why and how its happening. Nothing can stop the movement. It will take over eventually. The only justifiable response is a list of reasonable moderation criteria that all controllers must meet
You'll talk to Hax in chat, but you won't have him in a voice call on stream? So lame, dude.
Either adapt with a boxx controller or play on an inferior one. The controller itself is just flat out superior numerically. Look what you have to do in order to compete with a boxx controller. It's like comparing an arcade stick to a hitbox. Hitbox is just better. Arcade controller feels more satisfying though. The boxx is so much harder to use than any GC controller. You have to learn how to play a piano vs just picking the damn thing up
In my opinion, Melee was created with the gamecube controller in mind. Meanwhile, the opposite is true for the B0XX.
Thus, what is basically an arcade controller, was not intended for melee, and with that, the controller (only somewhat) breaks the game in a way, making actions way quicker to input. So yeah, please balance the controller before this gets out of hand.
I honestly hate alt controllers because most are ungodly expensiv so to be able to compete with top players you need to practice techinics like dashbacking harder than they do unless you spend money.
In short, in makes the game P2W
i have big problem withm y hand (disgraphya so physicly can't be consitent and will always have delay on my moovement , and proprioception meaningi don't know where my ducking hand are precisly ) + i'm bad at melee as all new player is
tap jumping just feel off and honestly i don't see with the ammount of mod there is removing it is saw as THAT much of a issue , but it make sens to not remove it
i'll be moving to boxx for those reason , and when i start to thing of how it technily lower the barrier to entry , i'm thinking taht yhea tehre a a problem
1st think of what the ideal(for human) and optimal (TAS) way to play melee would be , then lower the shit to get close to waht is now and would be both accesible and fair , making ground rule , then balance every controller arroudn taht standart
you know like every game ,and tolls ever standart make everything easier
z jump is really really really really good and puts players that don't use it at a disadvantage.
b0xx is more broken by far yes, but controller modifications are really going to far.
@@clap5108 Box can for sure do some nutty things way easier than a controller, but I think a point a ton of people miss is that learning a box is incredibly hard. I'm trying to learn Frame1 after playing on GCC for 10 years. It's like fully rewiring your brain. It takes a stupid amount of time. But, like I said, box def has advantages once you get used to it. I won't even try to deny that. But I personally just wanna keep my hand health. I'm not ever going to be good enough to be a serious tourney threat anyway.
Why aren't you allowed to remap buttons in melee? Back in SF4 people remapped their sticks so they could take advantage of a bug and could make one of the hardest things in the game twice as easy
Nintendo would probably shut it down because it's a software mod
It's not an option in game, people who are remapping for melee are using controller mods to achieve it.
Phobs > Goomwaves
Goomwaves have macros in them and are closed source.
box with gamecube buttons and nothing more
Cody is a sick player and might be right about everything, but he comes off as really annoying
u into melee??
Button remappings are normal. Any modern game would have that.
And if you want to ban boxx you ahve to ban goom and phob AND notches.
Thats my take.
Ibdw channeling Scar energy. Thinking about the collective first, not getting swayed from core philosophy of going slow. Seeing the value in community decisions.
I agree that z jump needs to be looked into but Cody is a bit too “ I am right and everyone else is wrong “
Can you really not mention ucf on commentary?
13:56
Not true actually. Track and Field has gone through this with Blade runners. Also in sports in general, trans competition also falls into this category. It is always a balance of trying to balance accesibility with consistent competition.
Nintendo will absolutely fuck you over if they want. Be careful folks
We argue in circles about software mods, hardware mods, and box controllers - when the real enemy is Nintendo.
This is like Uncle Rico complaining about randoms using mouse and keyboard on an Xbox 360 game.
everything he is saying are 100 facts.
aint nobody talm about TAP jump cryne emoji
Of for fuck sake let everyone map any move to any button, custom controls should be a thing for every game- if they let you break the game fuck it, it’s not like you’re using macros, just playing the game as it is with more comfortable controls.
Also I will never understand why melee players vehemently defend tap jump when it is the single worst mechanic that every future smash realized people would want to disable. Dont care if you can get used to it, I want controls that are intuitive and comfortable.. jesus christ..
Agreed. Most of these top players (this guy included) are children in terms of maturity and mentality. Controllers are just supposed to be mechanisms for delivering inputs to the game. No reason to ban anything that isn't a programmed macro spamming multiple inputs with one button.
I could do 30kps vibros in VSRG's if that was a universally held standard on every game. Just bind the same input on multiple keys and its broken af. There's a reason people argue about this
@@CommandoBlack123 people argue about it because of poor game design. If changing control scheme breaks a game then the game is poorly made.
I want pure chaos, let all control schemes be allowed, let it all come crumbling down, AHAHAHAHAHA.
Excuse me now, I need to get back to drinking.
WTF he wont even talk to him because of the ban? What is he, a pariah? Jeeeez. This community is low key super cancer.
Unless theres some BIZARRE and disgusting rule that you cant even talk to him while competing that I dont know about???? WTF is this.
wow hax can stay banned for all I care, sit + cry is free
Good God Cody
Man I love hax, but he can be so dogmatic and that can be so frustrating to support him.
Yeah but there's no downsides to 1.03 tournament edition
@@lewisbirkett4428 biggest thing is about Nintendo hating mods on software.
But I see what ibdw is saying about meta implications. Maybe it will make Melee a lot more boring if Sheik and Falcon can CC chain grab for free, idk
@@jebril "CC chain grab for free"?? My brother in Christ, CC reaction tech chasing (def not a chain grab) is NEVER going to be free. That shit is hard and takes stupid fast reaction time. That's why there's only a handful of players who do it well, and regularly.
But yes, 1.03 is a big enough change that I could easily see nintendo dropping the ban hammer on tourneys for using it. And Hax for sure was making some bigass reaches with his reasonings for stuff in Cody's chat. And this is coming from someone learning a Frame1 (3d printed DIY because I'm poor) for my own hand health. And I already have an amazing GCC from Rienne.
@@outdatedboat you guys act like UCF isn’t one of the biggest softwere mods that is currently used
The obvious thing to do is ban boxx style controllers from major tournaments. You can allow them on slippi or locals. No one has a “right” to play melee competitively. Its just ridiculous.
WHY LOCALS BUT NOT MAJORS?
@@trixssbm So they don't ruin the top level meta duh
@@milkvolume1711 tf that suppose to mean and people at locals can ruin / influence top level meta i don't think you know what you are talking about if you let b0xxs be banned at majors but not locals it ruins top level meta and b0xx's don't ruin top level meta as is if you ban from majors but not locals it ruins top level meta cuz there will be less players so it will be less interesting less meta will evolve and it will slowly kill 1 / 5 of the players who play melee you don't acc know what top level meta is. clown
How has it come this far? A controller which gives statistical and technical advantages in comparison to the controller in which the game was designed to play with should never have made it to tournaments, regardless of its ergonomics for people. If you're hands are fucked so you need to use a boxx or fighting stick, then you need to stop playing melee competitively. Play for fun and take care of yourself. Don't enter tournaments where it costs money and people lose because of advantages that cannot be matched with a gcn conch.
Ban boxes
ban z jump
The reason this even is a discussion is because we don't just play on BASE controllers. Everyone with a modded controller is spoiled and uses their money to be better. Money should never be a barrier in this game.
The problem with this, and why mods and UCF became a thing in the first place, is because all base controllers aren't created equal and before UCF it was essentially a lottery if your controller functioned right and people would either buy a shitload of them hoping to eventually get a good one or would be forced to alter their playstyle around their controller's deficiencies.
@@laskeese7930 you are absolutely right. UCF leveled the playingfiels somewhat. I still thing it very hypocritical to push for remapping buttons, and be against removing tap jump. Look at Ultimate. That game has both and it's not an issue. The issue for me arises once you limit certain base remapping options and not others. At least that is my issue with IBDW's opinio. Who cares anyway tho it'll be legal and even more passionless frameperfect glue eaters will riddle my favorite game.
Full controller remaps would be hype as shit and sustainable controllers would be sick. Then the GameCube controller could really compete in its own way with the boxes.
@@Shenkie this just brings us back to the accessability issue though. Remaps for melee are happening by reprogramming the controller so buttons are remapped inside the controller, ultimate allows you to do it as an in game setting. If they say "ok all remapping is allowed in melee" now everyone who has access to those controllers has a massive advantage over people who don't.
@@laskeese7930 you are absolutely right. I seem to recall some melee mods where you could remap. But i'm not a fan of making additional fees for competing. Soccer requires a ball and preferrably legs but that's it. You shouldn't want rocket powered shoes for it.
hax is right
BIAS
So glad hax is banned lmaoo
His takes on this are so dumb. It's all just his ego. "use my mod" and "use a B0XX". Instead of addressing the root issues. Rienne in the chat (controllermother) was being way more reasonable about shit, and selling modded controllers is her job. When Hax was going off about how UCF sucks, Rienne said something like "UCF bridges the gap between good and bad GCCs, not analog to digital". But Hax will seemingly never concede that the box controllers have huge advantages. And I'm saying this as someone learning Frame1. I know it's pretty busted. But I'll never really be a tourney threat and I just wanna keep my hand health.