JLK and DJ are two of my favorite EDH guys on YT. That being said, if I saw them having dinner at a restaurant, I'd quietly walk by their table and "accidentally" drop a Reliquary Tower on their table. And then I'd watch.
playing my own deck, if i am playing it will be for fun, not for the purpose of becoming better at the game over having fun having the heart of the cards is fun and im only saying this for kruphix/niv mizzet/melek/nin pain artist/kruphix/tishana/zegana/kruphix kruphix
If you reframe this episode as a reminder that good cards are only good in the context that makes them good, it makes a lot more sense. Plenty of people play these cards outside out of the context that makes them good without realizing that there are better options available for certain specific applications. Predictably, a lot of the commentary about this video is going to be about objective power levels of cards but I think that's mostly missing the more valuable point here: consider the role that a card plays in your specific deck, and consider the fact that other cards might be situationally better even if they're objectively worse. - Jim
It is their own fault for using such a click bait title. That's just asking for a bunch of folks to show up with counter cases of why they are wrong and debate. The episodes title have been some thing like "Powerful cards played incorrectly" or "Cards more powerful in edh" That way they can show how regrowth is much better than eternal witness not that eternal witness is overrated.
I agree. People need to realize what works in your deck. I come from CEDH, so we run all fetches on at least one color. Brainstorm goes into EVERYDECK. Even mono blue high tide, or Teferi Stax, we still run it. I agree with regrowth but many of our powerful cards go into eveydeck. Thanks for making this thread Jim, as people need to realize how powerful cards are in THEIR deck. The original duals, we run all of them. THEY ARE GOOD! I need to cast my necropotence. On turn 3. OG duals, fetches, and mana crypt mana vault and sol ring are broken. I love this channel, but I think they need to play more cedh, turn threes, talk about it. Have more variety. Chromatic lantern good. I play Doomsday. And Necropotence. Chromatic lantern good I don't need to explain why Force of Will is a AMAZING card. DJ said it best. More competitive=better force.
@@loganeby947 nobody NEEDS to play competetive edh. If that's your gig, that's cool. But a lot of people play edh as a casual outlet, and discussing the merits of cards in the context of both casual edh and competetive edh would take forever and have a high likelihood of bogging down the cast. Their cast/show is already pretty long. Also, there's a good number of players that actually get pissy when you talk too much about competetive scenes and the expensive cards that most competetive decks use, and them talking about hyper competetive builds with full sets of duals and fetches may actually alienate a number of viewers. For me, I don't think competetive edh sounds that appealing. Trying to combo people out as quickly as possible, or locking people out of the game. Edh is my casual outlet with my friends. Don't get me wrong, we want our decks to be powerful, but we try to limit combos and lock out cards. I play legacy as my format of choice, so that is my competetive outlet and I get my fill of combo decks there. I know you didn't mean it like everyone should play cedh, I'm just giving my viewpoint on why they may not talk about it, and why some people that own all the expensive cards you would need/want for cedh still don't want to play cedh. And like you said about og duals being good. I agree. I run them. I would not consider them overrated, but they are right when they say that money could probably be spent better elsewhere on something that would be more likely to increase your win percentage. Unless like you said you're trying to run CCC cards like necropotence in multicolor decks. Then perhaps a dual is exactly what you need.
Returning from the future after playtesting to say that any deck that wants Rishkar's expertise or similar effects wants either Thought Vessel, Reliquary Tower or Spellbook depending on its colours
@@DimitriWithLemon add Song of the Dryad and you have 3 which should be enough, and every single one of these options is budget and strictly better than Putrefy
But then on Mimic Vat he tells Josh, "what if you wanted to bring the creature back into your hand that are 3 drops just so you got them" because you wouldnt have Reliquary tower
To be fair, think about what kind of board state you probably have if you just drew 20 cards. If keeping the best 7 cards can't win you the game at that point, either you got board wiped or your deck is not good.
@@jinxed7915 i disagree, in casual your building a deck to pass time by. So your not going go build it to have three win cons in 7 cards, you draw 20 cards from a precon deck and your probably going to get 6-10 lands, some mana rocks, and some small creatures
@@jinxed7915 Exactly: there is a difference in drawing 7 and 20 to an empty hand, and drawing 20 and keeping them or discarding to 7... In the second case - yes - it is not a huge difference, I have to agree...
It's true though. As Jim from The Spike Feeders said, the point is more to use them in the deck they actually make sense in. A VO in an artifact deck with lots of artifact cost-reducers makes total sense - why not get value from a card that may consistently only cost 1 or 2 mana? In my Brudiclad deck, it's amazing. I would always forgive a VO showing up in a dedicated artifact deck, or even just a combo deck that would prefer to throw in something like a Mechanized Production on the last opponent's end step (my Brudiclad deck is both artifact and combo so again, it's amazing in that). In my Omnath, Locus of Mana deck, despite that being based around making lots of mana, it feels annoying to have to cast and take away from Omnath's P/T, so I don't play it in that anymore. However, I do play Yeva, Nature's Herald, since the deck is essentially Elf tribal anyway, focussed around mana elves, so it makes more sense to play an Elf that gives flash to the things that need flash than an artifact with no deck synergy.
@@andrewsparkes8829 It can be good in other decks as well, vedalken orrery in my Selenia, Dark Angel deck is really good, it allows me to wait with my removal and not have to deal with either doing nothing on my turn or hoping that an opponent doesn't play some game winning creature. Also it allows me to use more life swap effects at instant speed, imagine being attacked by a 1/1 when you're at 40 life and all of a sudden somebody flashes in Repay in Kind and sets themselves to 1 by repeatedly returning their commander to their hand in response to it's own ability. it really just depends on what a deck does, if most of the deck would be so much better at instant speed (beyond just the flexibility) orrery is actually good, or if you have an untap effect like seedborn muse having everything at instant speed gives you a better prophet of kruphix which is banned for a good reason.
@@rustyanvile But if you're running Seedborn Muse in a creature-heavy deck, then, again, Yeva is better anyway in terms of financial price/not putting as much of an obvious target on your head, even if you aren't running Elf tribal, since it's the creatures you're most likely wanting to cast at instant speed anyway. And yeah, anything to do with combo potential using what are normally sorcery-speed spells (i.e. anything but instant) that can DIRECTLY WIN YOU THE GAME, use it. But if it's in SOLELY because "it allows me to wait with my removal and not have to deal with either doing nothing on my turn or hoping that an opponent doesn't play some game winning creature", then sorry, but just "playing stuff at flash speed" isn't good enough - just get better, instant-speed removal in the first place, if this is the sole case in a deck. (Not saying your deck specifically is like this, of course, since you have the combo part anyway - I'm talking in general here, using your phrase as an example, if someone was using it as the ONLY reason to play VO.)
The problem of them praising it as a staple is literally the same thing they say with planeswalkers - it's such a huge threat that it dies before it does anything. It's all about how and when you play both types of cards, but they always assume you play Planeswalkers into a huge board while you play VO into the magical christmas land scenario of three mono-black decks that can't deal with artifacts. You play a walker into as empty a board or as protected YOUR board is as possible, and you immediately gain some value from it, and you play VO when you see a bunch of people have used their Rec Sages or Seal of Primordiums. There is, in fact, a person behind the cards who has a brain and hopefully can play around removal.
Your dual land comparison isn't right. Its not tundra vs hallowed fountain, cause you will still run hallowed fountain. Its Tundra vs a basic land, or your worst dual land. I agree the power is not worth the price, but its not right to compare it to a good dual in your deck.
I thought he brought it up because when you use a shock, you have the choice of wether it comes in tapped and you don't need it untapped that often. So you can use slow duals and it wont hurt you too much
@@andrewp979 Shocks and duals aren't the only lands with 2 basic land types, the battle lands are like a buck a piece and come in untapped in the mid to late game. Plus, the point was that $500 for a card that you will see MAYBE every other game if you're running lots of fetches and that you might not even need untapped, isnt really worth it.
@@andrewp979 Yes. They're good. Very good. It's why they cost the same as much as a down payment on a car. The point wasn't that they suck, the point is that they aren't going to make the difference between winning and losing in nearly enough games to be worth the upgrade unless you're playing in an extremely competitive environment.
I agree with all of Josh's points especially Reliquary Tower. Having multiple options in hand is a huge advantage, similar to how modal spells are so great because their flexibility. But I think it also slightly depends on playstyle. Josh likes to have vedalken Orrerry in his decks. He's more often than not gonna have extra cards in hand since he's waiting to play it on other peoples turn.
When dude says, "I don 't think it's that big a difference between seven cards and twenty," you can see the effort his partner has to go through to not just outright call him stupid.
THere is a difference in drawing 7 and 20 to an empty hand, and drawing 20 and keeping them or discarding to 7... In the second case - yes - it is not a huge difference, I have to agree...
You're missing 3 points on Brainstorm. First, it's an instant. Secondly, it enables miracles in your hand. Third, if someone wheels, you have the fantastic option to tuck 2 important cards back in your deck that you can draw again.
It also only costs 1 life point from ad nauseam. Is in most doomsday wincons, protection from mind twist, thoughtsieze, therapy. Sets up your dark confidant flips(at its floor). Is played poorly sometimes. Draws you into counter magic(again floor). All very real and common occurrences for my playgroup and others.
I get you. But it's a thing. 10% of the meta or so. Shame the divide between the two is super hard but that's how it be. I realised my mind twist comment was kind of redundant as well and for that I am sorry
DJ's arguement against Reliquary Tower seems kind of baseless. In a deck with a lot of card draw, it's a necessity, since in that kind of deck, the whole design to have 20+ cards in hand. So, the downside to have a colorless man over the hand size is really dumb in certain decks. And then he tried to argue that "the most powerful decks" don't have it. The response to that is, is that the most powerful, Teir 1/1.5 decks aren't based around card draw. They play, turn 4 infinite combo, Kiki-Jiki style
There are t1 decks that dont infinite combo and abuse card draw Meren/muldrotha stax, urza control/stax, and my personal favorite, bant flicker (there is a t1.5 variant thats not infinite)
@@V2ULTRAKill That's not really the point that he's making. "the top decks in the format don't play it therefor it's bad" is a shitty take. If you're following that logic, then according to this guy, if you're not playing anything other than a t1-t1.5 decklist, the cards you're playing are bad. EDH isn't a competitive format. It CAN be, but most playgroups you come across are going to be somewhere in there 5-6/10 power level range, and if you wanna play a deck that draws a lot of cards, and you don't wanna have to discard them, why would you not play reliquary tower? The argument that it's gonna color screw you is also horse shit, unless you're on a 4 or 5 color deck, or you're playing a 3 color deck with 10+ colorless lands, in which case, reliquary tower itself isn't the issue, it's your entire mana base. It just seemed like DJ wanted to be contrarian here.
The Reliquary Tower argument was so bad. He said there wasn't much difference between 7 and 20 cards then furthered his argument by asking Josh if 4 times the cards in hand means 4 times the winrate to try and say it isn't a big difference. I didnt know you needed to increase your win rate by 400% by using a single land for it to be significant enough to matter. It's such a weird and flawed question. It depends on the deck you're running. Maybe now you have loads of mana on board, 15 counterspells, and some infinite damage combos in hand in which case now your winrate is 100%. Or maybe you just have 6 mana onboard and alot of interesting creature and enchantment options in hand in which case your chances are still alot more than with 7 cards but probably not 4 times as likely.
I really wish that cavaet, that we are talking the game without financial bounds, was the context here. The "research" is also flawed. Yes edhrec has all these percentages. But they are submitted often by ppl converting their physical, financially confined, lists. I mean ClickBait title and phoning in an almoat yearly evergreen discussion still gets thumbs. Hope they get sponsored by AT&T next so it is all covered.
fearanarchy i accually think edhrec is not representative of real decks. I think people post a lot of theory crafted decks with cards they dont own. Wich means edhrecs most popular cards are more expensive then the avarage commander deck.
DJ talking about 'Reliquary Tower': "I don't see much of a difference between 7 and 20 cards" DJ talking about 'Force of Will': "losing that extra card puts you at a huge disadvantage" I'm beginning to see some cognitive dissonance here, anyone else?
I noticed this too, but I think it just speaks to their very different play-styles. I haven't really seen DJ's decks but Josh clearly likes answers and his play-style needs Reliquary Tower and Force of Will. I definitely have some decks where everything DJ is saying does actually make sense, but those are very aggressive decks, with maybe 5 answers in the entire deck.
i kinda see djs point most of the time when you draw 20+ cards your looking for the card you need to win so keeping anymore is pointless. that being said a lot of times i run reliquiry tower in decks that dont have a lot of color intensive costs and i draw alot of cards because i like keeping more then seven because it helps you in the event of a boardwipe
his arguments seem stupid because he thinks edh is a competitive format instead of "board game" format / casual / play whatever you want which in its self is kinda stupid imo. His point can be sorta sumup that you just need your two or three cards in your infinite engine so why have 20. And the discard card is bad because top decks are designed with you playing 4 rounds so card draw is tempo loss most of the time and you need to value each of your cards. Where his arguement flattens is him trashing Tower for being bad cuz muh top tier decks and then procceeds to say force of will is bad because only good players can make use of it and why run it in your casual group play deck. Like he didn't take a position really which makes him seem just arguing for the sake of arguing. There is tons of casual decks that can make use of tower, in fact there is tons of casual deck which could use of both, like a izzet storm deck(imo, at least ethnical versions), force is just not worth the money, that should have been his argument.
mimic vat is strong tho. Specially in casual enviroment. Unless answered, it warps the table around it, because it turns into a big value engine that gives options.
I know this is years old already, but in the Reliquary discussion, I understand both points of view: DJ is trying to state that having a colorless land that will not do its job 100% of the time, as it is not guaranteed that you will 100% of the time have more than 7 cards in your grip is detrimental to your mana base. Furthermore, he implies that your deck should always function in a way that you don''t have an excess of cards in your hand doing nothing. On the other hand, JLK is a deck builder who loves crafting value engines, thus he enjoys creating decks that allow him to draw cards and look for answers. This means that he may draw more cards than he may be able to cast very often. In his case, the tower is useful because that's the aim of his deck, to generate card advantage and hold them in his hand. In his eyes, not having to discard what had been obtained through his value engine is useful.
DJ and Josh had different ideas of what was happening in the conversation, that's for sure. Arguing a point for optimization vs being cautious about saying "never". It definitely was difficult to watch, but jeez the information they both shared was crazy
Green can tutor for creatures. It can't tutor for sorceries. That's why Eternal Witness isn't overrated. Regrowth is also good but I've cut Regrowth before cutting Eternal Witness because Witness is accessible with a lot of other cards green has. And the original duals can't be overrated in terms of how they improve your deck. Are they worth it in terms of power gained compared to how much they cost? Probably not. Are they amazing in decks without fetch lands? Probably not. But if you're building a tuned deck and you have all the fetch lands you will see that land EVERY game and having an additional land come into play untapped or not costing you life will add up into a real difference in win percentage over time.
Not to mention if you're running blue (because why wouldn't you) you can blink it and flicker it for tons of value. Their arguement that regrowth is better than EW is literally idiotic.
They covered both of these points in the show. If you reframe this episode as a reminder that good cards are only good in the context that makes them good, it makes a lot more sense. Plenty of people play these cards outside out of the context that makes them good without realizing that there are better options available for certain specific applications.
@@TheSpikeFeeders Their only argument against Eternal Witness is that Regrowth costs one less mana and can be situationally better than Eternal Witness. Is Regrowth overrated just because Reap can be situationally better than Regrowth?
@@Ectharias "If you can't use the body" at 8:19 - 8:55. This analysis is specifically talking about Eternal Witness' application in decks where you're not leveraging the fact that it's a creature. If you're pitching it to Survival, including it as part of a toolbox ETB creature suite that you're accessing via Fauna Shaman or Survival or whatever, then it's great. They say this at 10:24.
@@traycarrot I don't think that's what they're assuming at all. At the core of this video is the message that you need to understand what makes a card good to determine if it's going to be good in the specific application you're using it. Eternal Witness is an objectively good card, but whether it's the best recursion spell in any particular deck depends on what else is going on in that deck. Your example of Merciless Executioner absolutely fits with the theme of this video if people frequently talked about Merciless Executioner like it should be in every deck with black in the identity.
I think that Religuary Tower should be played in every deck that finds itself discarding to a hand size majority of the games, does not care about its graveyard and does not have high requirements for mana fixing.
Even in mono-blue I find that the colorless mana from reliquary tower can be kinda awkward. I really can't see myself winning a game where I'm repeatedly discarding down to max hand size, unless I have drawn a billion cards in which case I've probably already won.
Why in the world would you have a deck that has so many problems? What's the point of drawing so many cards you can't cast? Clearly your mana curve is too high of that's the case. If you don't have enough mana ramp, that's an issue. Every deck needs ramp.
I agree with DJ on this. I've been taking it out of more decks and it's forcing me to play more recursion engines in my deck. Overall, I think it's making my deck building stronger and more consistent.
how consistent is your hand to always have the perfect 7? are all the cards you run tutors? however congrats to DJ for being as stubborn as JLK is on certain things and allowing us to see how JLK deals with it .
he meant that if you were to draw 20 cards and not have reliquary tower out, you would discard down to 7 and keep the best 7 and still win. Of course, that's just a stupid argument because with Reliquary Tower you would have the best 7 and 13+ cards that can act as backup incase things go wrong.
@@dewolx7411 His arguement kinda falls flat, especially when most of these, draw 20+ card decks, are 2/3 colors. Having 1 more land that taps for colorless instead of color, or taking a utility land slot, isn't that big a downside. It's a utility slot for a reason
at 7:00. I would argue that the body of witness is very significant. Mostly because green has a much easier time to do stuff with reatures than with sorceries. Creatures are generally more easily recurred and a LOT easier to tutor up. So there's a lot more value on having an effect on a creature rather than a sorcery. The tutor part is huge imo. Green Sun's, Chord, Primal Command, Woodland Bellower, etc. It's pretty much the same reasoning as with reclamation sage.
Not to mention in decks like, oh IDK let me just look to my left, Sigarda humans and Anafenza counters, that body is basically there to help tribal swarm and/or be enhanced once it hits the board.
Yea i think they forget EW is green and how green uses creatures vs spells. Almost any green deck should get more from ew than an instant/-sorc. Most green decks will run recursion or some overrun effect or somesuch where that 2/1 body has a good shot at being a 20/20 trample
That's not just green, it's every single color and most decks in the format. It's why a body with the effect of a spell is SO much better than the spell itself, even if it costs more. Creatures can easily be copied, bounced, flickered and reanimated. Most decks can do at least one of these things.
Reliquary Tower: My favorite part about this card is that I don't have to take time to make the discard decision. If I'm staring at a complex board with 30 cards in my hand, I don't want to make my opponents wait while I decide what are the perfect seven. Not having to discard keeps up the pace of the game.
I was thinking this the whole time they were talking, just because the card's purely mechanical advantages aren't always clear-cut or powerful, doesn't mean that the impact on the game isn't positive. Waiting for someone to pick their 7 is a huge flow breaker, because it's not like the next person can start their turn like with a fetchland or something. Not having to sculpt a perfect 7 is way better than having to think for 10 seconds about mana colors without Chromatic Lantern out.
Look, I absolutely love watching your videos, but if I ever have to listen to you guys debate whether or not Reliquary Tower is good for 10 minutes ever again, i might rage quit. 😂
I think with Reliquary Tower, it is best used when in a control deck. Being able to hold a variety of answers as well as keeping land drops is very valuable.
Okay... on the Mulldrifter VS Divination argument, unless your deck is made to get instants and sorceries back from the graveyard, I think Mulldrifter is almost always better: even if you just Evoke it, it dodges counters and tax effects that only hit noncreature spells like Negate and Thalia, it can potentially trigger other ETB and death abilities for you, and as a creature, it's usually easier to get back. Additionally, with a single Crystal Shard on the field, you have a "2UU: draw two cards" engine that you can use every turn. In general, the body is easier to abuse. I think the only situation where Divination is better is when your deck is focused on instants and sorceries.
I love i can attack with it, fling it, block, sac it, respond to its sac, draw two cards, play it for 5 or 3 whatever i want. Love the card. Can't do all of that with divination
@@peewee130946 yeah but let's be honest are you ever just gonna evoke muldrifter like there is never gonna be a time you won't just summon it straight basically most of their claims are what can be best described as yes that is a problem in such a narrow field that it's a non issue like say oh Collosus of Akros is bad because it dies to 4 life gain spells into a nightmare thirst sure it does but at the same time when are you gonna face that situation
@@peewee130946 except that also gives you a 2/2 flying body which not only has evasion so you can chip in some damage it's also a chump blocker, something to sac rather than your important creature when your opponent forces you to sac the list of uses for it's body without your deck even needing to be able to do anything fancy with it is massive just by virtue of it being a creature or hell getting clever with the evoke and a proc of someone elses on death triggers is another use you can some up with it
Maybe "overrated" is the wrong word for some of the picks. But "more situational than you might think" or "hard to believe it but it's not an auto-include" don't make good titles ;)
People do need to remember that,majority of the time, JLK and Co. are taking experiences from their own group metas with these cards. There have definitely been times where a card like Mimic Vat has locked out the game. I’m sure others have had this experience as well. However, just because it happens to us, doesn’t mean they have the same experience. Just from watching Game Knights and Extra Turns, their meta seems to be exile and bounce effects. Sure, they’ve destroyed a creature every now and then, but majority of the time they deal with threats in other ways. Not only that, but for cards with Mimic Vat, if you’re going to have it in your deck, you need to take advantage of the effect(s) of MV or the card exiled with it. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Overrated doesn't mean bad, Chromatic Lantern has its uses, they're saying it's not as important as people think it is. What's the point of putting chromatic lantern in a 2 color deck? It's not hard to get your two colours, typically chromatic lantern is only useful because of the mana fixing and not because it's a mana rock, just because it's overrated doesn't mean it's a bad card, it has its uses, just not as many as people think it does.
I usually love your videos....but this one misses the mark on a lot of cards mentioned. Reliquary Tower, E Wit, Lantern, Force....really? Next on overrated cards part 2 will be Mana Drain, Necropotence and Sol Ring.
@@ShinyMTG To be fair, what they said was that E wit is worse than it's spell counterpart if the body of the elf isn't relevant to you and that's just objectively true. If you're playing a slower paced commander where you can durdle with your E-wit and recur cards with it over and over again, sure it's better. But 9 out of 10 games e-witt recurrs just one card and as such is just spending an extra mana. And I completely agree with them on reliquary tower, tower is good in actually quite few decks and is colourless, pretty much every commander deck would get more out of other utility lands in their land slots. I think lantern is better than they're giving it credit for and they are so completely off the mark on force there's no point even touching on that.
I Agree but also disagree :D I think josh overrates it a lot, but most people don't. In my play groups, I am the only person to play vedalken orrery and indeed, it is just as stated in this video, but it needs a specific deck for it to be good
Overrated perhaps, but there are few things quite as satisfying as flashing out an Engulfing Slagwurm to block your opponent's 2,000,000/2,000,000 trampler
One of my favorite uses of Mimic Vat so far was to nab the Prosh player's Pathbreaker Ibex after someone had immediately answered it so he couldn't win via the recursion he had. I was pretty far behind due to speculating on a very questionable hand. It sat there for a decent amount of the game until I trawled the engines in my Meren deck hard enough to find the pieces of my win-con: Bloodspore Thrinax + Avenger of Zendikar + sac outlet. I kept getting wiped every turn and recovering the next until I had the mana to do it all again and make an Ibex token at the same time. I had taken Ibex out of my deck for being too close to, if not better in my deck, than Craterhoof Behemoth, which I had also traded away for other value. But I don't really have to feel bad about it winning with it when I saved the table from the Prosh using it in the first place. Anyway, the point is that in that game it was both Graveyard hate which interrupted a winning play, AND my own win condition. Recursion is a monster tactic, and being able to reach into the 'cookie jar' of other decks to turn their own intended recursion targets to your own use is a great experience to pull off. (On a related note, I'm pretty sure my playgroup needs to run more artifact/enchantment hate-- which actually means I could probably get away with Vedalken Orrery and equivalents sticking around much more often than I "should" otherwise hope)
Every time I've been rifted, my hand size was the least of my worries. Typically, the game ends pretty shortly thereafter, and my discarding a couple cards wouldn't have changed that.
In my experience you're lucky to even get to your next turn when that happens. But if you do, unless they use it on your turn then you have a whole turn to play out your rocks rebuild board state before you have to discard. Completely agree with comments on reliquary tower. I have it in my Jhoira artifacts matter deck just because coloured mana isn't as needed, and only when I have a huge turn is it ever relevant.
@@loganl8440 I played plenty of games that still lasted quite some time after the Rift. Hell, I'd almost say that *Cyclonic Rift is overrated* , because people act like playing it will insta-win you the game, but that's only the case if you were already ahead.
I miss Jimmy! DJ has a really hard time letting things go, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, and he doesn’t seem to have this ability or maybe it’s a lack of self awareness.
@@zachharrell7776 Nothing happened to him, it's just that at the time of this video, he was taking a long break from this channel cuz he was recording the Mulan movie.
Early sol ring makes you lose because it makes you the first target. The tempo loss from being the first target is bigger than the tempo gain from the lead it gives. It's incredibly good, you just have to manage your table aggro.
2 things, 1st EDHrec has an article series that challenges the most played cards that they think shouldn't be played, are you going to discuss those articles? Vedalken orrery is one of them. 2nd you guys are using your data from the stats episode and I love all the work you did but isn't your sample size way too small to accurately influence decisions?
@@ForeverLaxx exactly! The mimic isn't any good because it can get removed before it does enough. There's NO WAY someone could remove an artifact...right? Derp.
How many times have you had a Reliquary Tower out and said “dang, if only I had one more of X color”? Not often. And then realize that the land you replace it with might not even tap for that color.
Think about this for reliquary tower. Your opponents has answers, if you have 7 cards, you have at most 2 ways to win the game. If they get answered, you're out of luck. If you have 14 cards, you have 4 ways to win the game. Cant say no to anything like that, generic mana isnt even bad.
I disagree with brainstorm. It is instant speed meaning you can leave up mana if you need to/ wait for more information to know which cards to put back. I would say out of filtering, ponder is best as you see three and then can see a fourth of one of the three are good. Preordain is worse than both ponder and brainstorm. I would take brainstorm though. I don't think its overrated. Additionally, I disagree with the concept of the parity argument. I feel that if the game is good, then all four players are actively contributing. They are being threatening and also stopping opponents threats. That being said, Even if at one point Player A and B go one for one. I think its pretty likely that C and D will go one for one. Or Player A will get a card draw engine like and early rhystic study. And then go one for one with each opponent, but then they have drawn four cards. I don't think the parity argument holds if decks are at least 75% or high on a competitive scale which is most decks.
DJ doesn’t like reliquary tower because cards in hand isn’t that big of an advantage but talks about how he loves filling his graveyard to use as a toolbox...Lost me there.
Seven vetted card hand is also a toolbox. The effect is not bad, but the problem is the skimmed over opportunity cost of running a colourless "basic" land for a really situational and often marginal effect. If you have a deck made to abuse it, the use it, alongside with Venser's Journal and the other such cards. If the occasional big break is your reason, you should maybe reconsider. Remember, GY strats also design the deck around using the grave, so it's the same deal --you don't run individually weak pieces alone.
@@noniddie We do actually. Always speeds the game right up when it's played. Either we all collectively do something about their group hug shenanigans, or inevitably die to the tax of it.
@1:07:25 you can hear Josh's frustration haha I know DJ's good at commander but man he seems so contrarian it must be infuriating trying to work with him
I think the main thing to take away is make sure when you're filling your slots have synergy. Do you need arifact/ enchantment removal you could play rec sage but without synergy why pay more for a sorcery speed naturalize?
if nothing else it's a chump blocker that can also be a sacrificial lamb to a sac effect instead of your important creature even without synergy tutoring for creatures is easier than tutoring for non creature spells that's even synergy that's just a fact of green , you can surprise pump it into the stratosphere to get a cheeky kill in because of how it's small it is also given the number of lock down cards that see play in commander that stop instants and sorceries from being played that effect being strapped to a creature comes in more handy than you think simply ignoring what other people are playing and forgetting all the situations it has straight upsides is the definition of a bad brewing .
@@michaelkeha those are fair but in my experience the body usually doesn't matter and you can say a creature is useful in general sure. I have seen lots of games where a rec sage is just a bad naturalize.
I think you took a little longer than you should have on Reliquary Tower... Long story short: if you can put it into your land count with zero or almost zero risk of color-screwing yourself (if your commander is colorless or most of your spells require only one colored mana, for example), or if you find yourself discarding down to seven way too often because you draw too many cards with your deck, then go for it. Otherwise, don't.
@@plain6677 to point out the obvious RT works wonders in Jeskai and Temur combo decks where you fire off a massive combo then reload to do it again, or hell it also works in decks like Naya Dinos, 5 color dragons, 5 color eldrazi, Boros angels to serve as the stop gap because at times you can only drop on card a turn it helps stop you from having to bin when you get clogged and backed up also it saves you a shit ton of discard if anyone is play lots of blue bounce
michaelkeha nah nah remove it from Gishath man it only does well with Greater Good and you need that 2R, 3W and 2G sometimes... I only run Temple and Ancient Tomb there as colorless. In combo decks yes definitely it works as you are drawing a lot. I don’t know for Boros and Eldrazi but I removed it from 5c Dragons. Well I don’t have bilands and not all the fetchlands for that deck so that maybe why the colorless was hurting me so much.
One thing I've noticed is lots of people are taking this video to mean "These cards are bad and you're bad if you play them". They do state that that is absolutely not what they mean - these cards aren't bad, but they're often played when there are better alternatives available. Many of the comments say, "Well, card X is super good in my Y deck because blah blah blah". You're right! In some circumstances, these cards are great! If you're playing a card draw deck, go nuts on reliquary tower. If you're playing a 5 color deck, you probably want chromatic lantern in there. If you're cEDH, you definitely want Force of Will. This video makes a lot more sense if you take a step back and frame it as what it is - these cards are good when the circumstances are right, but lots of people just throw them in every deck, and that's when they're overrated.
The Reliquary Tower argument is more legit to be having in the comments, because DJ has such a poor opinion of it, even in decks Josh and others would assume it'd be great
In a deck with 3 or more colors, please explain what other 3 cmc mana rock is better than chromatic lantern? Most of these cards are very situational and they did a clickbait title and thumbnail and should have named the video something different and talked about how these cards are often mistaken to be auto include in every deck but really are situational and then they should state the exact kind of decks that would use said card.
I love the dynamic between these two guys. They obviously follow different philosophies when it comes to deckbuilding and playing commander, but they also are both extremely knowledgeable and experienced. Hearing the contrasting perspectives is really cool. In my play group we rarely ever see Reliquary tower, and if we do, then that person dies because they're obviously going to abuse it and draw so much that they can't lose. We play for fun first and foremost. For example, I play my Jurassic Park deck, which is probably about an 8 in effectiveness, but I play it like a group hug 5 x'D. It's Naya dinosaurs, but instead of aggro, it's mana ramp/fix, cycling, and protective enchantments to bring dinos out en masse and keep them safe on my battlefield. The only time I ever attack is if someone breaks down the walls (protective enchantments) and lets the dinosaurs out. We all like to play themes and fun stuff, so a lot of times these powerful or staple or overrated cards don't hit out table. Rainbow Vale is one that's in all but 2 of the 11 decks our group currently plays, just because it's fun.
Command Zone - "Old School Duals are over rated" Also Command Zone - "Reliquary Tower is over rated and hurts your mana base" Maybe we just figured out why old school duals arent over rated. If you run Duals, Shocks and Fetches, then you are more flexible to run key colorless utility lands like Reliquary Tower because it then doesnt hurt your mana base. Even in 3 colors.
SonAlexander "Command zone" didn't say that rec tower was bad. DJ said it was bad. DJ is not the command zone, and i'm pretty sure JOSH agreed that rec tower can be quite useful in decks that draw cards.
@@traycarrot - No, you are spending that money to TUNE your deck to get it as efficient as possible. Saying you are spending 1k to run a $3 land is a straw man argument.
@@connorwarren5350 - DJ is a guest host on the command zone. Thus, while he is here, his opinion is the command zone. He even helps run the the advertising in the begining and uses the word "Us"
I loved this episode. I think a lot of times when your deck building, you get caught up on those “go to” cards without actually thinking critically about if the deck is asking for that card or if you are just throwing it in because you think you might need it. I especially liked that there was some point counter point because while I may not have agreed or disagreed with each point, it opened me up to some thoughts I can ask myself when adding some of these to my decks Great stuff!
Putrefy is cheap and old, is the card "overrated" for being solid in a slot? As of a year ago, should it have been run in every golgari deck? Probably. I think if you are going to judge a card by rating, you need to ask players how they rate it vs. EDHrec numbers of play. The 3 golgari cards you named came out this year and 2 of them are expensive. Are there better options, yes. Is the card overrated, I don't think so.
Imo it being cheap doesn't really cancel out the fact that there are much better cards. The more relevant argument I think (and at least one other person has made this comment) is the baseline definition that the frequency at which a card is seen is proportional to how it's rated. JLK at the least seems to strongly argue that he "sees" certain cards far more frequently than he thinks he should and therefore it's overrated. IMO, that might just be indicative that the better rated cards are expensive and the "overrated" card is much cheaper ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That being said, JLK *did* say that he thought that maybe some of these cards simply weren't "phased out"/replaced with newer cards and Assassin's Trophy isn't *that* expensive. At the very least, it was the number 1 card people were trying to sell around here causing prices to plummet :|
@@LedPESRule Song of the Dryad is $8 dollars in the removal slot, so that is still pricey for many players, and while Beast Within is indeed a better card, you are usually running 5 targeted removal spells in the deck. With that being said, does Putrefy do the same job as the other cards, just not as well? Yes, but to say it is overrated is a clear overstatement. No one talks about most of these removal cards in their decks, because they kinda fill a mandatory space like how lands do. To say something is overrated means that people need to care enough to rate it, which I strongly believe people don't do. "I need removal, this does the job pretty well and I don't want to spend extra money here, works for me ..." is the thought process when picking for this slot. The card was never on a pedestal from which to fall from.
@@skimask38 Huh, didn't know that Song got that expensive. You can get it for 3,50 here in Europe but still. Doesn't change the fact that Putrefy is subpar, even if it's an ok budget option to fill a removal slot. Even on a budget, I'd probably still rather play a good green enchantment/artifact removal AND a good black creature removal instead of the one Putrefy.
Brainstorm is so great because it is instant speed...going 3 cards deep if you need an instant speed answer (or a counterspell, your playing blue duh!) is huge.
Preordain also gets me 3 deep and doesn't make me need a shuffle effect. Ponder gets me 4 deep. I don't usually need that effect to be instant speed in my meta, and I own only two or so fetchlands. I play a maximum of two counterspells in decks I've built in the past. So, as always is the takeaway from videos like this, you need to take into account your playstyle/deckbuilding choices and your meta. It would be a mistake to simply declare Brainstorm superior to all those other cards across the board simply because it's the correct choice for you and your deck in your games.
The reason why Eternal Witness is so popular is because it can be tutored for and recurred from the graveyard in green, Regrowth cannot. I wanted to quickly clarify that you can recur Regrowth in green, but you can't recur it and tutor for it.
Don’t get me wrong, I love DJ. And I hope he becomes a permanent part of the command zone. But what’s happened to jimmy? I’m really starting to miss him, and we haven’t heard from him in a while. I know he’s working on Mulan but an update or Skype call would be nice every once in a while would be nice for the fans.
I've been a long time fan of jumbo commander and the command Zone.... and tbh Craig and Jimmie are my favorite people on this show. No hate for josh he just has a different playstyle from myself.
@@buddieschiknful that isn't what Jumbo said. And with Jumbo on the show we get discussions and alternatives where Jimmy and josh just kinda agree so i agree with elijah. Jumbo>Jimmy
Smh. At time in this video makes no sense. This is the type of video where they say counterspell isn't good because you have to pay double blue. An it's ok in a mono blue deck.
With respect to Force of Will, the card itself creates a threat of a counterspell when you're tapped out. That incentivizes other players to be more cautious about their plays, which can help you even if you don't actually end up needing to cast it.
42:45 Just saying, I do run lantern in Gonti so that way I'm able to use activated abilities from what I steal. Same with Memnarch and other stealing / cloning decks that I make
Ok... this video is very subjective to certain play groups I feel. Honestly a lot of those cards are staples in decks that my play group will play with and test due to the fact that they work so well in the deck archetypes that certain people prefer, the fact that you're saying they are overrated does make any sense bc really it just depends on a person's play style. Also wtf was that bullshit about chromatic lantern being overrated, if I have a 3 or 4 color deck and have 3 lands of the same type and a chromatic in my starting hand I'm not going to mull probably due to the fact that the lantern literally fixes my mana immediately... they n3ed to really focus and put more time into prepping these videos before they film them.
Yes, some of these cards are great in certain playstyles or deck archetypes. That was kind of the point they were making about them. The cards are excellent in certain decks, but they are not excellent in every single deck of that color. Overrated because people think they belong in every deck, instead of decks built to properly utilize them. The tl;dr of this video is basically consider every card and it's role or function in each deck instead of throwing cards in because they are "Staples".
@@chrisperciavalle3142 yeah I guess it's just some of their picks are weird, like e witness, I put that in ever green deck I make even if I am not graveyard focused bc a card that gets a body on the field that I can use and gets me a possible combo or other important cars back into my hand is just good and is not overrated at all I feel
Eternal witness is good because green tutors for creatures very easily and does not tutor for sorceries. You have a greater chance of getting out an eternal witness when you need it rather than having dumb luck and drawing into a regrowth. (Drawing isn't Green's strong suit)
Part of the issue with this video is that these guys go into commander from the perspective of a competitive edh player. Their decks are tuned well enough that 7 cards out of 20 are enough to just win the game. As opposed to budget battlecruiser style no infinite combo decks that don't just win even with 20 cards in hand. This may be foreign to a lot of players, but many people don't want their commander decks to be as strong as possible. They want to play $30 not precon decks. The other thing they don't realize is that in a $30 commander deck people don't have good fixing. Chromatic lantern is fine. Sometimes mimic vat is the best card I play in a game. If that's not ever the case in your deck then you're probably playing more expensive cards like rhystic study.
So when you're discussing cards viability in a format, you have to approach it from the perspective of the higher end of the format. You cannot seriously argue that mimic vat is good in a non-competetive environment and as such the card is good in the format, that makes absolutely no sense. Mimic vat and lantern are totally fine cards for low budget commander, but they are just not actually good commander cards if you have acces to the better options and have proper fixing in your landbase. The problem with this video is that it's inconsistant, because slaughtering lantern and mimic vat because they are not good at higher end commander and then shit-talking force of will because it "costs a card", which is the line of thinking at lower ends where lantern is worthwhile, are just completely opposed ideas. I also seriously doubt you could make an even decent commander deck at 30 bucks these days, 100 maybe
What I love about this episode is that your views can be so different so a lot if great points are made and contrasted. That doesn't happen when everyone agrees.
Ok, I've had mimic vat in Meren, and it hardly ever did anything, the fact that it can only activate once a turn, and at a mana cost I usually would rather just let it die.
How many other sources of reanimation are you running besides Meren? Do people kill Meren as often as they probably should be? I agree that sometimes I don't end up doing much or anything with my Mimic Vat in my Meren deck, though. But having that extra fun way to recur something when my Meren costs 6 or 8 and won't trigger til my end step is just clutch enough of the time to hold its slot. I'll definitely concede that it's a pet card and there might very well be (almost certainly is, in fact) another recursion option I'm not running that would be stronger, even if it's only used once. My meta seems to have a lot more creature hate than artifact hate, though. So I get away with a significant amount more than I otherwise would, just because of that. Meren dies in a board-wipe, but my Vat snags something off anyone's board that I can either chug away with right away, or save for the right time. I can even get free damage in on the now-empty board if I don't mind antagonizing someone a bit.
Essefex I run a lot of reanimation, and tutoring, plus with the amount of ramp in the deck it doesn't really matter how many times Meren dies, I actually just let her go to the bin a lot cause it's easier to get her back from there. I'd probably play the vat, if there weren't more synergistic option s
I have never seen a game where a mimic vat could not have been activated. If JLK isn't having creatures die in roon then he should try attacking his opponents with them, then either they block and kill your thing so it can imprint, kill it so you can imprint, bounce it so you can recast it for its effect, waste some sort of better removal spell on it rather than say your commander or you get some damage and get a bit closer to winning the game. You can poo-poo combat all you want but it is a very strong and reliable method of dealing damage generally speaking. Also Brandon Sanderson is fantastic great endstep! Also also, if eternal witness is worse than regrowth do you also think that naturalize is better than reclamation sage? (not rhetorical that is a legit question) Also I think it is inconsistent to say that when you are playing and someone randomly swings a mana dork or something at you you need to make it known that that is not ok and then say that a 2/1 is pretty much irrelevant. In one case you are saying that every point of damage brings you closer to losing and therefore matters and in the other you are going with the classic "1 is not 0" and saying that most damage doesn't matter. I think either is fine just you should pick one. I'm pretty sure that every deck can use the body, whether to sacrifice to an edict instead of your commander or to chip in for extra damage or to block a big attack. Token decks and tribal decks can pump it up, creature decks can tutor it, flicker/blink decks can abuse its etb and it is still has such a general effect as to be relevant in every deck where you would play the cheaper sorcery version. I would almost argue the other way around, that regrowth is only better when your deck specifically cares about instants and sorceries or when you want more redundancy in that effect. Either way this was a good video to create some discussion keep up the good work!
The point about E Witness and Rec Sage is that the body isn't for free. You have to pay 1 extra mana on turns, where you probably also want to do something else (because you normally don't play them on curve). Obviously having the effect on a creature is better when you have a way to reuse them somehow (reanimate, blink, bounce,...), but if your deck doesn't do that, then the mana efficiency probably outweighs the other advantages.
I fundamentally disagree with DJ's opinion on reliquary tower and both of their opinions on duels. What was most baffling to me was DJ saying he wouldn't run reliquary tower because it slightly hurts the mana base, yet he doesn't think the duels are worth it despite increasing the consistency of the mana base, especially with fetches. In fact, ignoring budget, their is absolutely NO reason not to run every duel in your colors that you can, because they are simply the best lands and will increase the consistency of hitting your colors on time.
David Russo clearly you didn’t listen. They said Duals are fine, but they don’t increase your win % exponentially and make or break decks. “Adds consistency to your deck “ is a bad argument when is only 1-2% better at most
I wanted to thank you guys for this episode. It's unlikely that it's for the reasons you might think, however. Even though I disagree with nearly 50% of the cards you nominated, what you did really pound into my brain over and over again with all your back and forth, was how ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL it is to deeply consider each card in the deck. What I realized was that in too many cases, I became "blinded by the bling" of a card because of what it might do in situations that usually don't occur if my deck is simply more efficient and focused. I took a hard look at all my edh's and to my surprise, I ended up changing between 10-15 cards because they just weren't always pulling their weight. For that, I thank you for driving that point home. Kinda reminds me of the old song 🎶Blinded by the lights!🎶 by Manfred Mann.😂😁 Thanks again.
I think thats in general a pretty interesting aspect of card evaluation. A lot of cards vary in powerlevel Depending on the power of the format or your playgroup.
They do have a point though. FoW has the flexibility of zero cost, but in a multi-player game it only makes sense in a very narrow set of circumstances. If you're casting it for zero, you either don't care about the card disadvantage or you have no choice. For a format that requires the maximum flexibility but also considering the politics of the play, Force isn't justifiable IMO.
jerry ... you exile a card... not discard. also im just now seeing these comments. Force of Will is a card that is a staple in any blue control deck or storm deck in Cedh. You need it to answer things when tapped out... or even bait their stuff when tapped out. Also used on the turn you are going off, or stopping early game big plays. It doesn't matter as much in battle cruiser... it only cares in high lvl play.
With the reliquary tower, one of the things you really forget in my oppinion is that discarding your cards sometimes mean that they're OUT OF YOUR DECK! That's a really important reason to run it in my oppinion, because you only have 1 copy of anything in your deck. The other thing I think you forget is that it doesn't really hurt your mana base at all, because decks that will run it are often very heavy on blue, maybe izzet or something but rarely 5 colors so I think in 2 colors you can easily afford having it in your deck. (That been said, I also think it's overrated, the difference between 7 and 9 cards isn't that big so less decks SHOULD play it.)
to add on the reliquary tower, if u are going to draw up to 17 cards in hand and you are ok discarding 10 of those you need to take a hard look at your deck and see which cards are such duds that you are ok discarding them. that should be an effect your opponent have to do to u not an effect you do to yourself.
You definatly want reliquary tower in decks like Niv Mizzet Parun or basically any control deck with blue in it, because having all the answers is always worth it and one colorless land doesn't hurt most landbases if they are built correctly (not even 3-5 color, just run a chromatic lantern, its dirt cheap right know).
My wincon is so stupid....... I use that dramatic reversal and ischron scepter combo and draw basically everything and then i have a few cards that shuffle my hand and graveyard back into my library. Also have cards like thousand year storm and other actual storm cards in just for fun...
@@enigma1924 I also play thousand year storm and some storm spells. In addition I have a spell that deals damage equal to my hand size (I try to copy it to win) and I put in Insurrection and Clone army as a backup-plan (psychosis crawler and locust god might also be able to win me some games)
no, dj was saying that there was NEVER a good situation for rec tower which was just wrong, wheras josh was saying that in order for the vat to be good, the vats OWNER needed to be the one providing it with targets.
Hey, great discussion, especially in comments. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents: -You said to not take the data too seriously but continue to trash white and boros a bit too much. Ramp is the same as non-green and non-coffers decks. Still think minds eye is overrated though -Original duals aren't worth it but if your budget allows them, you're likely playing a tuned deck. The data saying budget doesn't matter is subjective to playgroup given most sources have a "limit", so the budget difference was smaller than possible given tuned vs 'budget' decks. Same deal with force of will, if its going in a precon its because you like it not because its good -reliquary tower has extra upside since mass discard is pretty rare but graveyard exile is more common. Cards in hand are also protected from opponents who could figure out your combos or strategy which affects threat assessment, though in that sense it maybe better to ditch and let get exiled so they don't stress over the person with 12+ cards in hand -mimic vat is great in glissa, the traitor
Reliquary Tower.... I do think that DJ has a point, running a land that only produces colorless mana is a handicap in many decks. Counter point DJ, I run the tower in only 2 of my 12 decks, Edric, Spymaster for Tress and Nekuzsar, the Mindraiser. Both decks have me drawing many cards and it is relatively often by turn 3 to 5 I'm at 8 to 12 cards in hand and with Edric, I want to play as many creatures as possible to draw more cards to either find a win condition or counter spells so I can make a play with Force of Will and drop down 2 cards and not care. In these cases, the Reliquary Tower is great and has a much desired effect on my game plan. Also, it is good against Overloaded Cyclonic Rift. I do not want the card banned, but let's be honest here. You do need to plan around it getting played at least once a game in many playgroups. If this is done late game, giving up 5 or more cards could really hurt. Chromatic Lantern.... Chromatic Lantern is an interesting card. Personally, I'd say 4 and 5 color decks it is perfectly reasonable to run in and probably should be. In 3 color decks it would depend more on the commander running and I would just not run it in a 2 color deck, your mana rocks should be a 2 drop and net a mana, not 3 drops. I run Chromatic Lantern in 3 decks. 2 of them are five color Slivers and Ur Dragon) so the fixing is helpful and the other is a Sen Triplets deck that needs access to the other 2 colors. Force of Will.... Agree, FoW gets better the more competitive you get. If you have one just lying around and just throw it in, that's cool too. You do you. But for the rest of us, yes I would say with a multi player format counters aren't as good of a play for you. Losing a card on top of that, it better be a do or die. Or not, it's commander and you play how you like, and is why I believe it is the best format. Duals.... I sadly agree, even owning all of them they aren't much better than the shocks. Both can be fetched easily, both tap for 2 colors, and 2 damage isn't much in most commander games. However, if you have them, play them (I use proxies because why play a multi hundred dollar card in a just for fun format. My biggest argument against the duals is that they are on the reserve list and will never be reprinted. (I hope that is not true.) Personally, if it is on the reserve list, I'd kind of like it if they can't be played in commander and yes, I own Gaea's Cradles, Serra's Sanctums, WoF, and many others too. I'd like the most expensive card in all of magic to be only $100 so almost anyone can join the game and make a deck. Thank you for reading my TED talk, I will most likely not be taking any questions. Have fun out there!
JLK and DJ are two of my favorite EDH guys on YT. That being said, if I saw them having dinner at a restaurant, I'd quietly walk by their table and "accidentally" drop a Reliquary Tower on their table.
And then I'd watch.
I’ve never heard someone argue so hard against Reliq Tower. Lmao
Alec Acres good in Yarok deck!
Alec Acres not really, serves good value
@@oneof13forestpeople97 YES! I find having 20+ cards in hand happens 25/8 with Yarok
playing my own deck, if i am playing it will be for fun, not for the purpose of becoming better at the game over having fun
having the heart of the cards is fun
and im only saying this for kruphix/niv mizzet/melek/nin pain artist/kruphix/tishana/zegana/kruphix
kruphix
Why would I run Rel Tower in a deck that wants creatures in grave?
If you reframe this episode as a reminder that good cards are only good in the context that makes them good, it makes a lot more sense. Plenty of people play these cards outside out of the context that makes them good without realizing that there are better options available for certain specific applications.
Predictably, a lot of the commentary about this video is going to be about objective power levels of cards but I think that's mostly missing the more valuable point here: consider the role that a card plays in your specific deck, and consider the fact that other cards might be situationally better even if they're objectively worse.
- Jim
It is their own fault for using such a click bait title. That's just asking for a bunch of folks to show up with counter cases of why they are wrong and debate. The episodes title have been some thing like "Powerful cards played incorrectly" or "Cards more powerful in edh" That way they can show how regrowth is much better than eternal witness not that eternal witness is overrated.
The Spike Feeders you are 100% correct. I think that people are so in love with their cards that they dont want to see the hard truth.
I agree. People need to realize what works in your deck. I come from CEDH, so we run all fetches on at least one color. Brainstorm goes into EVERYDECK. Even mono blue high tide, or Teferi Stax, we still run it. I agree with regrowth but many of our powerful cards go into eveydeck. Thanks for making this thread Jim, as people need to realize how powerful cards are in THEIR deck.
The original duals, we run all of them. THEY ARE GOOD! I need to cast my necropotence. On turn 3. OG duals, fetches, and mana crypt mana vault and sol ring are broken. I love this channel, but I think they need to play more cedh, turn threes, talk about it. Have more variety.
Chromatic lantern good. I play Doomsday. And Necropotence. Chromatic lantern good
I don't need to explain why Force of Will is a AMAZING card. DJ said it best. More competitive=better force.
@@loganeby947 nobody NEEDS to play competetive edh. If that's your gig, that's cool. But a lot of people play edh as a casual outlet, and discussing the merits of cards in the context of both casual edh and competetive edh would take forever and have a high likelihood of bogging down the cast. Their cast/show is already pretty long. Also, there's a good number of players that actually get pissy when you talk too much about competetive scenes and the expensive cards that most competetive decks use, and them talking about hyper competetive builds with full sets of duals and fetches may actually alienate a number of viewers.
For me, I don't think competetive edh sounds that appealing. Trying to combo people out as quickly as possible, or locking people out of the game. Edh is my casual outlet with my friends. Don't get me wrong, we want our decks to be powerful, but we try to limit combos and lock out cards. I play legacy as my format of choice, so that is my competetive outlet and I get my fill of combo decks there.
I know you didn't mean it like everyone should play cedh, I'm just giving my viewpoint on why they may not talk about it, and why some people that own all the expensive cards you would need/want for cedh still don't want to play cedh.
And like you said about og duals being good. I agree. I run them. I would not consider them overrated, but they are right when they say that money could probably be spent better elsewhere on something that would be more likely to increase your win percentage. Unless like you said you're trying to run CCC cards like necropotence in multicolor decks. Then perhaps a dual is exactly what you need.
@@chrisperciavalle3142 your probably right.
I play reliquary tower for protection from an overloaded cyclonic rift
Lol
This
DJ is so wrong about reliquary tower. It's one of the first utility lands to consider for most 2 color decks.
smart!
Returning from the future after playtesting to say that any deck that wants Rishkar's expertise or similar effects wants either Thought Vessel, Reliquary Tower or Spellbook depending on its colours
You can see Josh's soul leave his body when DJ doubles down on this "20 cards isn't better than 7" point. 31:10
1. Eternal Witness. (5:25)
2. Putrefy. (10:48)
3. Brainstorm. (13:10)
4. Mind's Eye. (19:04)
5. Yavimaya Elder. (23:18)
6. Original Dual Lands. (26:20)
7. Reliquary Tower. (30:00)
8. Progenitor Mimic. (38:42)
9. Chromatic Lantern. (41:08)
10. Mimic Vat. (45:23)
11. Force Of Will. (54:35)
And it takes almost an hour and a half to go over 11 cards?
The talked about Force Of Will till about 1:11:30 - so like 17 minutes on that one card.
Thanks so much
@@NottATelevision thats about 7 minutes per card. Reasonable isnt it? Especially when you discount the endstep and the stuff at the beginning
I cannot agree. Wtf.
Putrefy is like ten cents. That's why it's played.
Yeah i thought about that too. Assassin's Trophy might be better, but for me Putrefy is good enough for it's price.
Now we have Status//Statue which is also like 10 cents, much more flexible! So we can start using that more.
So is *Beast Within* , which is a much much much better card
@@LedPESRule haha very true. Beast within is great. If I had to pick 1 it's that, if I had to pick 2/3 it's beast and status statue
@@DimitriWithLemon add Song of the Dryad and you have 3 which should be enough, and every single one of these options is budget and strictly better than Putrefy
"I think Reliquary tower is good"
DJ: *and I took that personally*
its great in high card draw decks
Josh-" this card is good in specific situations."
DJ-"ThIs CaRd IS gOoD in SPEcifOc sItuAtIoNS."
Joe Kraut agreed
Depends on the meta
This is the summary of "overrated cards": Card good in a specific deck is transplanted to other decks, is less effective.
Never thought I would hear “The difference between 20 cards and 7 cards in your hand isn’t that different.”
Talking out his ass. Couldn't believe that was serious
But then on Mimic Vat he tells Josh, "what if you wanted to bring the creature back into your hand that are 3 drops just so you got them" because you wouldnt have Reliquary tower
To be fair, think about what kind of board state you probably have if you just drew 20 cards. If keeping the best 7 cards can't win you the game at that point, either you got board wiped or your deck is not good.
@@jinxed7915 i disagree, in casual your building a deck to pass time by. So your not going go build it to have three win cons in 7 cards, you draw 20 cards from a precon deck and your probably going to get 6-10 lands, some mana rocks, and some small creatures
@@jinxed7915 Exactly: there is a difference in drawing 7 and 20 to an empty hand, and drawing 20 and keeping them or discarding to 7...
In the second case - yes - it is not a huge difference, I have to agree...
The silence between "I think that if you're trying to win" and "I try and win. I think that I have established that", delectable lol.
Putting vedalkan orrey in ther thumb nail. Thats some top tier clickbait
I have no idea what you're talking about ;-) -JLK
It's true though. As Jim from The Spike Feeders said, the point is more to use them in the deck they actually make sense in. A VO in an artifact deck with lots of artifact cost-reducers makes total sense - why not get value from a card that may consistently only cost 1 or 2 mana? In my Brudiclad deck, it's amazing. I would always forgive a VO showing up in a dedicated artifact deck, or even just a combo deck that would prefer to throw in something like a Mechanized Production on the last opponent's end step (my Brudiclad deck is both artifact and combo so again, it's amazing in that).
In my Omnath, Locus of Mana deck, despite that being based around making lots of mana, it feels annoying to have to cast and take away from Omnath's P/T, so I don't play it in that anymore. However, I do play Yeva, Nature's Herald, since the deck is essentially Elf tribal anyway, focussed around mana elves, so it makes more sense to play an Elf that gives flash to the things that need flash than an artifact with no deck synergy.
@@andrewsparkes8829 It can be good in other decks as well, vedalken orrery in my Selenia, Dark Angel deck is really good, it allows me to wait with my removal and not have to deal with either doing nothing on my turn or hoping that an opponent doesn't play some game winning creature. Also it allows me to use more life swap effects at instant speed, imagine being attacked by a 1/1 when you're at 40 life and all of a sudden somebody flashes in Repay in Kind and sets themselves to 1 by repeatedly returning their commander to their hand in response to it's own ability. it really just depends on what a deck does, if most of the deck would be so much better at instant speed (beyond just the flexibility) orrery is actually good, or if you have an untap effect like seedborn muse having everything at instant speed gives you a better prophet of kruphix which is banned for a good reason.
@@rustyanvile But if you're running Seedborn Muse in a creature-heavy deck, then, again, Yeva is better anyway in terms of financial price/not putting as much of an obvious target on your head, even if you aren't running Elf tribal, since it's the creatures you're most likely wanting to cast at instant speed anyway.
And yeah, anything to do with combo potential using what are normally sorcery-speed spells (i.e. anything but instant) that can DIRECTLY WIN YOU THE GAME, use it. But if it's in SOLELY because "it allows me to wait with my removal and not have to deal with either doing nothing on my turn or hoping that an opponent doesn't play some game winning creature", then sorry, but just "playing stuff at flash speed" isn't good enough - just get better, instant-speed removal in the first place, if this is the sole case in a deck. (Not saying your deck specifically is like this, of course, since you have the combo part anyway - I'm talking in general here, using your phrase as an example, if someone was using it as the ONLY reason to play VO.)
The problem of them praising it as a staple is literally the same thing they say with planeswalkers - it's such a huge threat that it dies before it does anything. It's all about how and when you play both types of cards, but they always assume you play Planeswalkers into a huge board while you play VO into the magical christmas land scenario of three mono-black decks that can't deal with artifacts. You play a walker into as empty a board or as protected YOUR board is as possible, and you immediately gain some value from it, and you play VO when you see a bunch of people have used their Rec Sages or Seal of Primordiums. There is, in fact, a person behind the cards who has a brain and hopefully can play around removal.
You cant't skull clamp Regrowth.
leon devalire yes! Especially in my Meren deck!
leon devalire not with that attitude
They've explained that witness is only worth it if you can take advantage of the body
Apex 0 what green deck has more sorcery synergy than creature synergy. Green spellslinger are almost non existent.
It is a creature so it can block. Most of the time I need a blocker for my Planeswalkers rather than smash face with EWit.
Your dual land comparison isn't right. Its not tundra vs hallowed fountain, cause you will still run hallowed fountain. Its Tundra vs a basic land, or your worst dual land. I agree the power is not worth the price, but its not right to compare it to a good dual in your deck.
I thought he brought it up because when you use a shock, you have the choice of wether it comes in tapped and you don't need it untapped that often. So you can use slow duals and it wont hurt you too much
@@merlintym1928 having two fetchable duals in the same colour pair is a big upgrade
@@andrewp979
Shocks and duals aren't the only lands with 2 basic land types, the battle lands are like a buck a piece and come in untapped in the mid to late game.
Plus, the point was that $500 for a card that you will see MAYBE every other game if you're running lots of fetches and that you might not even need untapped, isnt really worth it.
@@merlintym1928 the main advantage is coming in untapped in the early game. By mid to late game the speed and consistency doesn't matter as much
@@andrewp979
Yes. They're good. Very good. It's why they cost the same as much as a down payment on a car.
The point wasn't that they suck, the point is that they aren't going to make the difference between winning and losing in nearly enough games to be worth the upgrade unless you're playing in an extremely competitive environment.
I agree with all of Josh's points especially Reliquary Tower. Having multiple options in hand is a huge advantage, similar to how modal spells are so great because their flexibility. But I think it also slightly depends on playstyle. Josh likes to have vedalken Orrerry in his decks. He's more often than not gonna have extra cards in hand since he's waiting to play it on other peoples turn.
yes
When dude says, "I don 't think it's that big a difference between seven cards and twenty," you can see the effort his partner has to go through to not just outright call him stupid.
DF Paul - I hear you. I have been saying for years now that DJ has no idea what he is talking about.
THere is a difference in drawing 7 and 20 to an empty hand, and drawing 20 and keeping them or discarding to 7...
In the second case - yes - it is not a huge difference, I have to agree...
You're missing 3 points on Brainstorm. First, it's an instant. Secondly, it enables miracles in your hand. Third, if someone wheels, you have the fantastic option to tuck 2 important cards back in your deck that you can draw again.
It also only costs 1 life point from ad nauseam. Is in most doomsday wincons, protection from mind twist, thoughtsieze, therapy. Sets up your dark confidant flips(at its floor). Is played poorly sometimes. Draws you into counter magic(again floor). All very real and common occurrences for my playgroup and others.
It’s amazing imo. I sided with josh on almost all of these arguments... DJ didn’t quite have it this time.
May be an angry Panda command zone does not focus on competitive
I get you. But it's a thing. 10% of the meta or so. Shame the divide between the two is super hard but that's how it be. I realised my mind twist comment was kind of redundant as well and for that I am sorry
I don’t know, I barely see these situations come up. Who is playing enough miracles or wheels to make it relevant
"You have to abuse the body" ~DJ The Command Zone #244
Note taken.
this is the best command zone quote to read in a Werner Herzog voice
DJ's arguement against Reliquary Tower seems kind of baseless. In a deck with a lot of card draw, it's a necessity, since in that kind of deck, the whole design to have 20+ cards in hand. So, the downside to have a colorless man over the hand size is really dumb in certain decks. And then he tried to argue that "the most powerful decks" don't have it. The response to that is, is that the most powerful, Teir 1/1.5 decks aren't based around card draw. They play, turn 4 infinite combo, Kiki-Jiki style
Yup. My Locust God even plays Library of Leng.
There are t1 decks that dont infinite combo and abuse card draw
Meren/muldrotha stax, urza control/stax, and my personal favorite, bant flicker (there is a t1.5 variant thats not infinite)
t1 decks have average CMC below 2. They deal with having too many cards by casting them.
@@V2ULTRAKill That's not really the point that he's making. "the top decks in the format don't play it therefor it's bad" is a shitty take. If you're following that logic, then according to this guy, if you're not playing anything other than a t1-t1.5 decklist, the cards you're playing are bad. EDH isn't a competitive format. It CAN be, but most playgroups you come across are going to be somewhere in there 5-6/10 power level range, and if you wanna play a deck that draws a lot of cards, and you don't wanna have to discard them, why would you not play reliquary tower? The argument that it's gonna color screw you is also horse shit, unless you're on a 4 or 5 color deck, or you're playing a 3 color deck with 10+ colorless lands, in which case, reliquary tower itself isn't the issue, it's your entire mana base. It just seemed like DJ wanted to be contrarian here.
The Reliquary Tower argument was so bad. He said there wasn't much difference between 7 and 20 cards then furthered his argument by asking Josh if 4 times the cards in hand means 4 times the winrate to try and say it isn't a big difference. I didnt know you needed to increase your win rate by 400% by using a single land for it to be significant enough to matter.
It's such a weird and flawed question. It depends on the deck you're running. Maybe now you have loads of mana on board, 15 counterspells, and some infinite damage combos in hand in which case now your winrate is 100%. Or maybe you just have 6 mana onboard and alot of interesting creature and enchantment options in hand in which case your chances are still alot more than with 7 cards but probably not 4 times as likely.
"At least in my games..."
This episode is the epitome of why we need to see Josh and D.J. play a game against each other.
Budget restrictions are also probably a reason some of these cards are played more then they should
I really wish that cavaet, that we are talking the game without financial bounds, was the context here.
The "research" is also flawed. Yes edhrec has all these percentages. But they are submitted often by ppl converting their physical, financially confined, lists.
I mean ClickBait title and phoning in an almoat yearly evergreen discussion still gets thumbs.
Hope they get sponsored by AT&T next so it is all covered.
ThieviusFox you are totally correct. That is absolutely it.
Yeah, I often play my original bilands too much when on a budget OwO exDee
fearanarchy i accually think edhrec is not representative of real decks. I think people post a lot of theory crafted decks with cards they dont own. Wich means edhrecs most popular cards are more expensive then the avarage commander deck.
The very reason I play Diabolic Tutor
DJ talking about 'Reliquary Tower': "I don't see much of a difference between 7 and 20 cards"
DJ talking about 'Force of Will': "losing that extra card puts you at a huge disadvantage"
I'm beginning to see some cognitive dissonance here, anyone else?
I noticed this too, but I think it just speaks to their very different play-styles. I haven't really seen DJ's decks but Josh clearly likes answers and his play-style needs Reliquary Tower and Force of Will.
I definitely have some decks where everything DJ is saying does actually make sense, but those are very aggressive decks, with maybe 5 answers in the entire deck.
i kinda see djs point most of the time when you draw 20+ cards your looking for the card you need to win so keeping anymore is pointless. that being said a lot of times i run reliquiry tower in decks that dont have a lot of color intensive costs and i draw alot of cards because i like keeping more then seven because it helps you in the event of a boardwipe
his arguments seem stupid because he thinks edh is a competitive format instead of "board game" format / casual / play whatever you want which in its self is kinda stupid imo. His point can be sorta sumup that you just need your two or three cards in your infinite engine so why have 20. And the discard card is bad because top decks are designed with you playing 4 rounds so card draw is tempo loss most of the time and you need to value each of your cards. Where his arguement flattens is him trashing Tower for being bad cuz muh top tier decks and then procceeds to say force of will is bad because only good players can make use of it and why run it in your casual group play deck. Like he didn't take a position really which makes him seem just arguing for the sake of arguing. There is tons of casual decks that can make use of tower, in fact there is tons of casual deck which could use of both, like a izzet storm deck(imo, at least ethnical versions), force is just not worth the money, that should have been his argument.
Ye they also put eternal witness in their " commander staples" video lol
Nuance is hard to grasp sometimes.
What I get from this episode: Dj thinks blue cards are overrated.
Agree with josh in all instances where he disagrees with dj.
mimic vat is strong tho. Specially in casual enviroment. Unless answered, it warps the table around it, because it turns into a big value engine that gives options.
blue is overpowered. dj's opinion on force of will overrated. not trying to be mean, I still like him
New words for the day: context and relevance.
What to avoid: ego traps and judgment.
I know this is years old already, but in the Reliquary discussion, I understand both points of view: DJ is trying to state that having a colorless land that will not do its job 100% of the time, as it is not guaranteed that you will 100% of the time have more than 7 cards in your grip is detrimental to your mana base. Furthermore, he implies that your deck should always function in a way that you don''t have an excess of cards in your hand doing nothing.
On the other hand, JLK is a deck builder who loves crafting value engines, thus he enjoys creating decks that allow him to draw cards and look for answers. This means that he may draw more cards than he may be able to cast very often. In his case, the tower is useful because that's the aim of his deck, to generate card advantage and hold them in his hand. In his eyes, not having to discard what had been obtained through his value engine is useful.
DJ and Josh had different ideas of what was happening in the conversation, that's for sure. Arguing a point for optimization vs being cautious about saying "never". It definitely was difficult to watch, but jeez the information they both shared was crazy
Speaking of overated, this is actually a very underated comment, seriously I think you nailed both points of view👏👏👏
Green can tutor for creatures. It can't tutor for sorceries. That's why Eternal Witness isn't overrated. Regrowth is also good but I've cut Regrowth before cutting Eternal Witness because Witness is accessible with a lot of other cards green has.
And the original duals can't be overrated in terms of how they improve your deck. Are they worth it in terms of power gained compared to how much they cost? Probably not. Are they amazing in decks without fetch lands? Probably not. But if you're building a tuned deck and you have all the fetch lands you will see that land EVERY game and having an additional land come into play untapped or not costing you life will add up into a real difference in win percentage over time.
Not to mention if you're running blue (because why wouldn't you) you can blink it and flicker it for tons of value. Their arguement that regrowth is better than EW is literally idiotic.
They covered both of these points in the show. If you reframe this episode as a reminder that good cards are only good in the context that makes them good, it makes a lot more sense. Plenty of people play these cards outside out of the context that makes them good without realizing that there are better options available for certain specific applications.
@@TheSpikeFeeders Their only argument against Eternal Witness is that Regrowth costs one less mana and can be situationally better than Eternal Witness. Is Regrowth overrated just because Reap can be situationally better than Regrowth?
@@Ectharias "If you can't use the body" at 8:19 - 8:55. This analysis is specifically talking about Eternal Witness' application in decks where you're not leveraging the fact that it's a creature. If you're pitching it to Survival, including it as part of a toolbox ETB creature suite that you're accessing via Fauna Shaman or Survival or whatever, then it's great. They say this at 10:24.
@@traycarrot I don't think that's what they're assuming at all. At the core of this video is the message that you need to understand what makes a card good to determine if it's going to be good in the specific application you're using it. Eternal Witness is an objectively good card, but whether it's the best recursion spell in any particular deck depends on what else is going on in that deck.
Your example of Merciless Executioner absolutely fits with the theme of this video if people frequently talked about Merciless Executioner like it should be in every deck with black in the identity.
1. Island
2. Forest
3. Swamp
4. Plains
5. Mountain
Underrated:
Wastes
They only tap for mana. Sucks.
@@NolalanD is THAT why I've lost every Commander match? My 100-land decks just not cutting it?!
Super accurate on power scale. I'd rate green and blue #1 haha. And even though that only leaves 4 spots on the list, red is still in 5th place. Haha.
@@NoahTakai you joke about that mana deck but you just need jorael as the commander and you're good to go XD
This video should have just been titled "You're Playing That Wrong".
"Is reliquary tower in the most powerful decks?" what? by that logic the Flash is severely underplayed
not anymore ;)
Witness is easier to tutor and easier to get the effect multiple times
Yarok says hi.
I think that Religuary Tower should be played in every deck that finds itself discarding to a hand size majority of the games, does not care about its graveyard and does not have high requirements for mana fixing.
Even in mono-blue I find that the colorless mana from reliquary tower can be kinda awkward. I really can't see myself winning a game where I'm repeatedly discarding down to max hand size, unless I have drawn a billion cards in which case I've probably already won.
Why in the world would you have a deck that has so many problems?
What's the point of drawing so many cards you can't cast? Clearly your mana curve is too high of that's the case.
If you don't have enough mana ramp, that's an issue. Every deck needs ramp.
And also if you don't utilize your graveyard at all, you're missing out on a lot of potential value.
@@TylerIsbell1 Not everyone wants to run the most turbo optimal deck they could, and some people can't afford it.
I agree with DJ on this.
I've been taking it out of more decks and it's forcing me to play more recursion engines in my deck. Overall, I think it's making my deck building stronger and more consistent.
how consistent is your hand to always have the perfect 7? are all the cards you run tutors? however congrats to DJ for being as stubborn as JLK is on certain things and allowing us to see how JLK deals with it .
he meant that if you were to draw 20 cards and not have reliquary tower out, you would discard down to 7 and keep the best 7 and still win. Of course, that's just a stupid argument because with Reliquary Tower you would have the best 7 and 13+ cards that can act as backup incase things go wrong.
@@dewolx7411 His arguement kinda falls flat, especially when most of these, draw 20+ card decks, are 2/3 colors. Having 1 more land that taps for colorless instead of color, or taking a utility land slot, isn't that big a downside. It's a utility slot for a reason
at 7:00. I would argue that the body of witness is very significant. Mostly because green has a much easier time to do stuff with reatures than with sorceries. Creatures are generally more easily recurred and a LOT easier to tutor up. So there's a lot more value on having an effect on a creature rather than a sorcery.
The tutor part is huge imo. Green Sun's, Chord, Primal Command, Woodland Bellower, etc.
It's pretty much the same reasoning as with reclamation sage.
Not to mention in decks like, oh IDK let me just look to my left, Sigarda humans and Anafenza counters, that body is basically there to help tribal swarm and/or be enhanced once it hits the board.
Yea i think they forget EW is green and how green uses creatures vs spells. Almost any green deck should get more from ew than an instant/-sorc. Most green decks will run recursion or some overrun effect or somesuch where that 2/1 body has a good shot at being a 20/20 trample
Those are all situations where your taking advantage of the body like they said in the podcast
That's not just green, it's every single color and most decks in the format. It's why a body with the effect of a spell is SO much better than the spell itself, even if it costs more. Creatures can easily be copied, bounced, flickered and reanimated. Most decks can do at least one of these things.
In non creature focused decks that have green in them, regrowth is much better. Especially if the deck is blue focused
Reliquary Tower: My favorite part about this card is that I don't have to take time to make the discard decision. If I'm staring at a complex board with 30 cards in my hand, I don't want to make my opponents wait while I decide what are the perfect seven. Not having to discard keeps up the pace of the game.
I was thinking this the whole time they were talking, just because the card's purely mechanical advantages aren't always clear-cut or powerful, doesn't mean that the impact on the game isn't positive. Waiting for someone to pick their 7 is a huge flow breaker, because it's not like the next person can start their turn like with a fetchland or something. Not having to sculpt a perfect 7 is way better than having to think for 10 seconds about mana colors without Chromatic Lantern out.
That time is wasted when you have to play slow considering all the cards in your hand for the rest of the game.
Look, I absolutely love watching your videos, but if I ever have to listen to you guys debate whether or not Reliquary Tower is good for 10 minutes ever again, i might rage quit. 😂
I think with Reliquary Tower, it is best used when in a control deck. Being able to hold a variety of answers as well as keeping land drops is very valuable.
Okay... on the Mulldrifter VS Divination argument, unless your deck is made to get instants and sorceries back from the graveyard, I think Mulldrifter is almost always better: even if you just Evoke it, it dodges counters and tax effects that only hit noncreature spells like Negate and Thalia, it can potentially trigger other ETB and death abilities for you, and as a creature, it's usually easier to get back. Additionally, with a single Crystal Shard on the field, you have a "2UU: draw two cards" engine that you can use every turn. In general, the body is easier to abuse.
I think the only situation where Divination is better is when your deck is focused on instants and sorceries.
You can still counter evoke though. Because you're casting for the evoke cost
I love i can attack with it, fling it, block, sac it, respond to its sac, draw two cards, play it for 5 or 3 whatever i want.
Love the card. Can't do all of that with divination
I was talking about counters that only hit noncreature spells, like Negate.
@@peewee130946 yeah but let's be honest are you ever just gonna evoke muldrifter like there is never gonna be a time you won't just summon it straight basically most of their claims are what can be best described as yes that is a problem in such a narrow field that it's a non issue like say oh Collosus of Akros is bad because it dies to 4 life gain spells into a nightmare thirst sure it does but at the same time when are you gonna face that situation
@@peewee130946 except that also gives you a 2/2 flying body which not only has evasion so you can chip in some damage it's also a chump blocker, something to sac rather than your important creature when your opponent forces you to sac the list of uses for it's body without your deck even needing to be able to do anything fancy with it is massive just by virtue of it being a creature or hell getting clever with the evoke and a proc of someone elses on death triggers is another use you can some up with it
Maybe "overrated" is the wrong word for some of the picks. But "more situational than you might think" or "hard to believe it but it's not an auto-include" don't make good titles ;)
That *is* overrated. It's rated over it's actual usability, so it's put in inefficient places. Geez, people really lack reading comprehension.
“Only one may stand” is overrated.
“Ruh roh” is underrated.
People do need to remember that,majority of the time, JLK and Co. are taking experiences from their own group metas with these cards. There have definitely been times where a card like Mimic Vat has locked out the game. I’m sure others have had this experience as well. However, just because it happens to us, doesn’t mean they have the same experience. Just from watching Game Knights and Extra Turns, their meta seems to be exile and bounce effects. Sure, they’ve destroyed a creature every now and then, but majority of the time they deal with threats in other ways. Not only that, but for cards with Mimic Vat, if you’re going to have it in your deck, you need to take advantage of the effect(s) of MV or the card exiled with it.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Most overrated card is mystical space typhoon
Lol nice
But it can negate tho.
You activated my trap card!
Force of Will is a good counterspell? They don't know anything about "MST negate"
Harpy's Feather Duster
Chromatic lantern is mandatory in many 5 colour decks. Like slivers or allies.
I run one in Najeela warriors and that deck is super tight on slots
Totally, or Bloodmoon and gg
Overrated doesn't mean bad, Chromatic Lantern has its uses, they're saying it's not as important as people think it is. What's the point of putting chromatic lantern in a 2 color deck? It's not hard to get your two colours, typically chromatic lantern is only useful because of the mana fixing and not because it's a mana rock, just because it's overrated doesn't mean it's a bad card, it has its uses, just not as many as people think it does.
@@ctg4818 same. Najeela and decks like the new niv mizzet need exact mana
@@ctg4818 it destroy!
A have Brainstorm in my Nekusar deck to hide extra wheels on top of my library so I can make sure I draw into another wheel.
Library of Leng is a must for a wheel heavy deck.
Exactly
Same
I use it in Yuriko and it’s great!
I usually love your videos....but this one misses the mark on a lot of cards mentioned. Reliquary Tower, E Wit, Lantern, Force....really? Next on overrated cards part 2 will be Mana Drain, Necropotence and Sol Ring.
Necropotence is overrated tho.
@@TylerRayPittman Some may take the bait on that comment, I'm not one of them tho. Good day to you sir!
@@ShinyMTG To be fair, what they said was that E wit is worse than it's spell counterpart if the body of the elf isn't relevant to you and that's just objectively true. If you're playing a slower paced commander where you can durdle with your E-wit and recur cards with it over and over again, sure it's better. But 9 out of 10 games e-witt recurrs just one card and as such is just spending an extra mana.
And I completely agree with them on reliquary tower, tower is good in actually quite few decks and is colourless, pretty much every commander deck would get more out of other utility lands in their land slots.
I think lantern is better than they're giving it credit for and they are so completely off the mark on force there's no point even touching on that.
Videos like this really mean "most popular cards that make me groan when they beat me"
If you listened clearly, you would be convinced E wit is overrated. I am convinced at least
"The guy who is drawing 20 cards in 1 turn is not trying to win." -DJ
Most overrated card in commander? *Vedalken Orrery.*
Most overrated card on the command zone*
I Agree but also disagree :D I think josh overrates it a lot, but most people don't. In my play groups, I am the only person to play vedalken orrery and indeed, it is just as stated in this video, but it needs a specific deck for it to be good
@@Cfp-sx2vs they said in a previous episode that it's a staple.
Overrated perhaps, but there are few things quite as satisfying as flashing out an Engulfing Slagwurm to block your opponent's 2,000,000/2,000,000 trampler
DraconisMarchVII
No.
i would have to say this on the mimic vat discussion....it is not only a token generator, it's graveyard denial.....
Also it gives the creature haste so can be used with tap abilities
Actually saved me from an infinite loop
One of my favorite uses of Mimic Vat so far was to nab the Prosh player's Pathbreaker Ibex after someone had immediately answered it so he couldn't win via the recursion he had. I was pretty far behind due to speculating on a very questionable hand. It sat there for a decent amount of the game until I trawled the engines in my Meren deck hard enough to find the pieces of my win-con: Bloodspore Thrinax + Avenger of Zendikar + sac outlet. I kept getting wiped every turn and recovering the next until I had the mana to do it all again and make an Ibex token at the same time.
I had taken Ibex out of my deck for being too close to, if not better in my deck, than Craterhoof Behemoth, which I had also traded away for other value.
But I don't really have to feel bad about it winning with it when I saved the table from the Prosh using it in the first place.
Anyway, the point is that in that game it was both Graveyard hate which interrupted a winning play, AND my own win condition. Recursion is a monster tactic, and being able to reach into the 'cookie jar' of other decks to turn their own intended recursion targets to your own use is a great experience to pull off.
(On a related note, I'm pretty sure my playgroup needs to run more artifact/enchantment hate-- which actually means I could probably get away with Vedalken Orrery and equivalents sticking around much more often than I "should" otherwise hope)
Dj would wish he had a reliquary tower when he gets cyclonic rift
Every time I've been rifted, my hand size was the least of my worries. Typically, the game ends pretty shortly thereafter, and my discarding a couple cards wouldn't have changed that.
In my experience you're lucky to even get to your next turn when that happens. But if you do, unless they use it on your turn then you have a whole turn to play out your rocks rebuild board state before you have to discard. Completely agree with comments on reliquary tower. I have it in my Jhoira artifacts matter deck just because coloured mana isn't as needed, and only when I have a huge turn is it ever relevant.
Or a force of will.
@@loganl8440 I played plenty of games that still lasted quite some time after the Rift.
Hell, I'd almost say that *Cyclonic Rift is overrated* , because people act like playing it will insta-win you the game, but that's only the case if you were already ahead.
@@LedPESRule i agree. I play simic mostly so this is my to go "board wipe" when I'm extremely far behind
"CoUnTeR sPeLlS aRe A wAsTe"
*laughs in countering your win con*
I miss Jimmy! DJ has a really hard time letting things go, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, and he doesn’t seem to have this ability or maybe it’s a lack of self awareness.
What happened to jimmy?
@@zachharrell7776 Nothing happened to him, it's just that at the time of this video, he was taking a long break from this channel cuz he was recording the Mulan movie.
@@plasmacrab_7473 Wait, he was in Mulan?
@@fatrat92 Yep!
He died owo
SOL RING. OBVIOUSLY. IT CAUSES YOU TO lose the GAME.
Because it is so good. A card that is on powerlevel with the power 9 is hardly overrated.
@@HugSeal42 False
Reason: Stats
A few episodes ago, they simply said a turn 1 sol ring increased your odds of losing. Not using it ever at all.
Early sol ring makes you lose because it makes you the first target. The tempo loss from being the first target is bigger than the tempo gain from the lead it gives.
It's incredibly good, you just have to manage your table aggro.
@@mx.stoneheart increase odds of using? well you are already using it so i guess your odds of using it are 100% if you use it on turn 1
2 things,
1st EDHrec has an article series that challenges the most played cards that they think shouldn't be played, are you going to discuss those articles? Vedalken orrery is one of them.
2nd you guys are using your data from the stats episode and I love all the work you did but isn't your sample size way too small to accurately influence decisions?
But they did like THERE HUNDRED GAMES! That's like, all the games. Ever.
That is kind of the problem though they are using incomplete data to reinforce their positions.
@@ForeverLaxx exactly! The mimic isn't any good because it can get removed before it does enough.
There's NO WAY someone could remove an artifact...right?
Derp.
3:15
it's thanks to people like you that humanity is still alive
Brave man
All of a sudden i have an urge to play a game against DJ and put money on it.
How many times have you had a Reliquary Tower out and said “dang, if only I had one more of X color”? Not often. And then realize that the land you replace it with might not even tap for that color.
a lot of times in 2 or 3 color decks, I prefer a basic land instead Reliquary Tower
@@Millus1987 Depends if your deck draws alot of cards.
Think about this for reliquary tower. Your opponents has answers, if you have 7 cards, you have at most 2 ways to win the game. If they get answered, you're out of luck. If you have 14 cards, you have 4 ways to win the game. Cant say no to anything like that, generic mana isnt even bad.
I disagree with brainstorm. It is instant speed meaning you can leave up mana if you need to/ wait for more information to know which cards to put back. I would say out of filtering, ponder is best as you see three and then can see a fourth of one of the three are good. Preordain is worse than both ponder and brainstorm. I would take brainstorm though. I don't think its overrated. Additionally, I disagree with the concept of the parity argument. I feel that if the game is good, then all four players are actively contributing. They are being threatening and also stopping opponents threats. That being said, Even if at one point Player A and B go one for one. I think its pretty likely that C and D will go one for one. Or Player A will get a card draw engine like and early rhystic study. And then go one for one with each opponent, but then they have drawn four cards. I don't think the parity argument holds if decks are at least 75% or high on a competitive scale which is most decks.
DJ doesn’t like reliquary tower because cards in hand isn’t that big of an advantage but talks about how he loves filling his graveyard to use as a toolbox...Lost me there.
To be fair, he doesn't need the cards in his hand if he's toolboxing them out of his graveyard once he's discarded them anyway. (Bojuka Bog Beware)
Seven vetted card hand is also a toolbox. The effect is not bad, but the problem is the skimmed over opportunity cost of running a colourless "basic" land for a really situational and often marginal effect. If you have a deck made to abuse it, the use it, alongside with Venser's Journal and the other such cards. If the occasional big break is your reason, you should maybe reconsider. Remember, GY strats also design the deck around using the grave, so it's the same deal --you don't run individually weak pieces alone.
And it's so easy to have your GY exiled on you. Much harder for them to peel your whole hand.
@@braddorcas9363 Someone doesn't have a Nekusar in their meta
@@noniddie We do actually. Always speeds the game right up when it's played. Either we all collectively do something about their group hug shenanigans, or inevitably die to the tax of it.
"Abuse the body on mulldrifter" 🙉
@1:07:25 you can hear Josh's frustration haha
I know DJ's good at commander but man he seems so contrarian it must be infuriating trying to work with him
I think the main thing to take away is make sure when you're filling your slots have synergy. Do you need arifact/ enchantment removal you could play rec sage but without synergy why pay more for a sorcery speed naturalize?
if nothing else it's a chump blocker that can also be a sacrificial lamb to a sac effect instead of your important creature even without synergy tutoring for creatures is easier than tutoring for non creature spells that's even synergy that's just a fact of green , you can surprise pump it into the stratosphere to get a cheeky kill in because of how it's small it is also given the number of lock down cards that see play in commander that stop instants and sorceries from being played that effect being strapped to a creature comes in more handy than you think simply ignoring what other people are playing and forgetting all the situations it has straight upsides is the definition of a bad brewing .
@@michaelkeha those are fair but in my experience the body usually doesn't matter and you can say a creature is useful in general sure. I have seen lots of games where a rec sage is just a bad naturalize.
@@traycarrot that would be the synergy I mentioned clearly you have a reason to run it.
I think you took a little longer than you should have on Reliquary Tower...
Long story short: if you can put it into your land count with zero or almost zero risk of color-screwing yourself (if your commander is colorless or most of your spells require only one colored mana, for example), or if you find yourself discarding down to seven way too often because you draw too many cards with your deck, then go for it. Otherwise, don't.
I completely disagree with that point but to each their own I suppose.
Do not put RT in mono-black, mono-red and 3 colors+. Put it in mono-blue, mono-green and any blue control deck.
@@plain6677 to point out the obvious RT works wonders in Jeskai and Temur combo decks where you fire off a massive combo then reload to do it again, or hell it also works in decks like Naya Dinos, 5 color dragons, 5 color eldrazi, Boros angels to serve as the stop gap because at times you can only drop on card a turn it helps stop you from having to bin when you get clogged and backed up also it saves you a shit ton of discard if anyone is play lots of blue bounce
michaelkeha nah nah remove it from Gishath man it only does well with Greater Good and you need that 2R, 3W and 2G sometimes... I only run Temple and Ancient Tomb there as colorless.
In combo decks yes definitely it works as you are drawing a lot.
I don’t know for Boros and Eldrazi but I removed it from 5c Dragons. Well I don’t have bilands and not all the fetchlands for that deck so that maybe why the colorless was hurting me so much.
One thing I've noticed is lots of people are taking this video to mean "These cards are bad and you're bad if you play them". They do state that that is absolutely not what they mean - these cards aren't bad, but they're often played when there are better alternatives available.
Many of the comments say, "Well, card X is super good in my Y deck because blah blah blah". You're right! In some circumstances, these cards are great! If you're playing a card draw deck, go nuts on reliquary tower. If you're playing a 5 color deck, you probably want chromatic lantern in there. If you're cEDH, you definitely want Force of Will.
This video makes a lot more sense if you take a step back and frame it as what it is - these cards are good when the circumstances are right, but lots of people just throw them in every deck, and that's when they're overrated.
The Reliquary Tower argument is more legit to be having in the comments, because DJ has such a poor opinion of it, even in decks Josh and others would assume it'd be great
In a deck with 3 or more colors, please explain what other 3 cmc mana rock is better than chromatic lantern?
Most of these cards are very situational and they did a clickbait title and thumbnail and should have named the video something different and talked about how these cards are often mistaken to be auto include in every deck but really are situational and then they should state the exact kind of decks that would use said card.
The real title of this video should be "cards that make me groan when they beat me"
Love the fact that you guys disagree in most arguments, love the content, keep the good work
God as I progress through this video, hearing DJ's voice and his arguments hurts my brain at an increasing level
Assassin's Trophy is super expensive tho...
This. They really bother me with their constant lack of regard for budget.
Harrison Bennett it’s like only 20$ now
@@alexanderneimeth4538 20$ for 1 card in a 100 card deck is not within everyone's budget.
It’s $12 on eBay and TCGPlayer right now. Still going down also.
Harrison Bennett see its even lower then I thought 12$ is not too much and may be out of budget for some people but 12$ is not that expensive.
I love the dynamic between these two guys. They obviously follow different philosophies when it comes to deckbuilding and playing commander, but they also are both extremely knowledgeable and experienced. Hearing the contrasting perspectives is really cool.
In my play group we rarely ever see Reliquary tower, and if we do, then that person dies because they're obviously going to abuse it and draw so much that they can't lose. We play for fun first and foremost. For example, I play my Jurassic Park deck, which is probably about an 8 in effectiveness, but I play it like a group hug 5 x'D. It's Naya dinosaurs, but instead of aggro, it's mana ramp/fix, cycling, and protective enchantments to bring dinos out en masse and keep them safe on my battlefield. The only time I ever attack is if someone breaks down the walls (protective enchantments) and lets the dinosaurs out. We all like to play themes and fun stuff, so a lot of times these powerful or staple or overrated cards don't hit out table. Rainbow Vale is one that's in all but 2 of the 11 decks our group currently plays, just because it's fun.
Command Zone - "Old School Duals are over rated"
Also Command Zone - "Reliquary Tower is over rated and hurts your mana base"
Maybe we just figured out why old school duals arent over rated. If you run Duals, Shocks and Fetches, then you are more flexible to run key colorless utility lands like Reliquary Tower because it then doesnt hurt your mana base. Even in 3 colors.
SonAlexander "Command zone" didn't say that rec tower was bad. DJ said it was bad. DJ is not the command zone, and i'm pretty sure JOSH agreed that rec tower can be quite useful in decks that draw cards.
I feel like 3 and above colors need to be as consistent as possible so I think the duals are a need
@@traycarrot - No, you are spending that money to TUNE your deck to get it as efficient as possible.
Saying you are spending 1k to run a $3 land is a straw man argument.
@@connorwarren5350 - DJ is a guest host on the command zone. Thus, while he is here, his opinion is the command zone.
He even helps run the the advertising in the begining and uses the word "Us"
If you notice the games they play, they almost always have a few dual lands out.
I loved this episode. I think a lot of times when your deck building, you get caught up on those “go to” cards without actually thinking critically about if the deck is asking for that card or if you are just throwing it in because you think you might need it.
I especially liked that there was some point counter point because while I may not have agreed or disagreed with each point, it opened me up to some thoughts I can ask myself when adding some of these to my decks
Great stuff!
Josh's face from 1:07:21 to 1:07:26 = how my soul felt at times watching this. I don't know how I missed this episode. 😇
I have seen reliquary tower played in boros. Like wtf👌😂
Lol
Terrain generator in a 3 color deck
Red draws cards.....
Sometimes opponents make you draw too. Or maybe theyre paranoid about blue preator(sp?)
When I play Boros, and somehow have more than 7 cards in hand, darn right I want to keep them!
Putrefy is cheap and old, is the card "overrated" for being solid in a slot? As of a year ago, should it have been run in every golgari deck? Probably. I think if you are going to judge a card by rating, you need to ask players how they rate it vs. EDHrec numbers of play. The 3 golgari cards you named came out this year and 2 of them are expensive.
Are there better options, yes. Is the card overrated, I don't think so.
It's still very overrated. Even before you still had Beast Within and Song of the Dryad which are both much much better than Putrefy
Imo it being cheap doesn't really cancel out the fact that there are much better cards. The more relevant argument I think (and at least one other person has made this comment) is the baseline definition that the frequency at which a card is seen is proportional to how it's rated. JLK at the least seems to strongly argue that he "sees" certain cards far more frequently than he thinks he should and therefore it's overrated. IMO, that might just be indicative that the better rated cards are expensive and the "overrated" card is much cheaper ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That being said, JLK *did* say that he thought that maybe some of these cards simply weren't "phased out"/replaced with newer cards and Assassin's Trophy isn't *that* expensive. At the very least, it was the number 1 card people were trying to sell around here causing prices to plummet :|
@@LedPESRule Song of the Dryad is $8 dollars in the removal slot, so that is still pricey for many players, and while Beast Within is indeed a better card, you are usually running 5 targeted removal spells in the deck. With that being said, does Putrefy do the same job as the other cards, just not as well? Yes, but to say it is overrated is a clear overstatement. No one talks about most of these removal cards in their decks, because they kinda fill a mandatory space like how lands do. To say something is overrated means that people need to care enough to rate it, which I strongly believe people don't do. "I need removal, this does the job pretty well and I don't want to spend extra money here, works for me ..." is the thought process when picking for this slot. The card was never on a pedestal from which to fall from.
@@skimask38 Huh, didn't know that Song got that expensive. You can get it for 3,50 here in Europe but still. Doesn't change the fact that Putrefy is subpar, even if it's an ok budget option to fill a removal slot. Even on a budget, I'd probably still rather play a good green enchantment/artifact removal AND a good black creature removal instead of the one Putrefy.
@Jerry Smith Yeah... come back when you've convinced everyone else of that.
Brainstorm is so great because it is instant speed...going 3 cards deep if you need an instant speed answer (or a counterspell, your playing blue duh!) is huge.
Lennart von der Assen that’s not what makes the card good. Shuffling does.
Or something that lets you play cards from the top of your deck.
@@MsOriginalGuru Yes but they talked about that, so why bring it up again and make my comment even longer 🤔 sure you are right
Preordain also gets me 3 deep and doesn't make me need a shuffle effect.
Ponder gets me 4 deep.
I don't usually need that effect to be instant speed in my meta, and I own only two or so fetchlands. I play a maximum of two counterspells in decks I've built in the past.
So, as always is the takeaway from videos like this, you need to take into account your playstyle/deckbuilding choices and your meta. It would be a mistake to simply declare Brainstorm superior to all those other cards across the board simply because it's the correct choice for you and your deck in your games.
The reason why Eternal Witness is so popular is because it can be tutored for and recurred from the graveyard in green, Regrowth cannot.
I wanted to quickly clarify that you can recur Regrowth in green, but you can't recur it and tutor for it.
I think reliquary tower is also good in artifact decks
Don’t get me wrong, I love DJ. And I hope he becomes a permanent part of the command zone. But what’s happened to jimmy? I’m really starting to miss him, and we haven’t heard from him in a while. I know he’s working on Mulan but an update or Skype call would be nice every once in a while would be nice for the fans.
He is comming back soon
He is in a remote part of new Zealand. Like a couple hours away from any city.
@@Shadowdoctor117 Actually he's been back in the US for a few days now, Mulan wrapped about a week ago.
Yup he’s been back and Mulan is in post production now
I've been a long time fan of jumbo commander and the command Zone.... and tbh Craig and Jimmie are my favorite people on this show.
No hate for josh he just has a different playstyle from myself.
Still. Missing Jimmy, but liking DJ
Still missing Jimmy and not liking DJ
DJ>Jimmy
Change my mind
@@elijahmthompson2313 Evidence: DJ would prefer 7 cards over 20. Gg no re, Jimmy wins
@@buddieschiknful that isn't what Jumbo said.
And with Jumbo on the show we get discussions and alternatives where Jimmy and josh just kinda agree so i agree with elijah.
Jumbo>Jimmy
@@buddieschiknful You miss smarmy, pretentious, condescending, inferior magic play? wow...
Smh. At time in this video makes no sense. This is the type of video where they say counterspell isn't good because you have to pay double blue.
An it's ok in a mono blue deck.
With respect to Force of Will, the card itself creates a threat of a counterspell when you're tapped out. That incentivizes other players to be more cautious about their plays, which can help you even if you don't actually end up needing to cast it.
42:45 Just saying, I do run lantern in Gonti so that way I'm able to use activated abilities from what I steal. Same with Memnarch and other stealing / cloning decks that I make
Gonti let's you play enemy cards regardless of their color type.
Sen Triplets would really benefit from effects like chromatic lantern
Ok... this video is very subjective to certain play groups I feel. Honestly a lot of those cards are staples in decks that my play group will play with and test due to the fact that they work so well in the deck archetypes that certain people prefer, the fact that you're saying they are overrated does make any sense bc really it just depends on a person's play style. Also wtf was that bullshit about chromatic lantern being overrated, if I have a 3 or 4 color deck and have 3 lands of the same type and a chromatic in my starting hand I'm not going to mull probably due to the fact that the lantern literally fixes my mana immediately... they n3ed to really focus and put more time into prepping these videos before they film them.
They seem to rate them based off of a deck playing perfectly every time
Yes, some of these cards are great in certain playstyles or deck archetypes. That was kind of the point they were making about them. The cards are excellent in certain decks, but they are not excellent in every single deck of that color. Overrated because people think they belong in every deck, instead of decks built to properly utilize them.
The tl;dr of this video is basically consider every card and it's role or function in each deck instead of throwing cards in because they are "Staples".
@@chrisperciavalle3142 yeah I guess it's just some of their picks are weird, like e witness, I put that in ever green deck I make even if I am not graveyard focused bc a card that gets a body on the field that I can use and gets me a possible combo or other important cars back into my hand is just good and is not overrated at all I feel
@@poptimeman you shouldnt value the body more than the one mana discount you get with regroth (of you dont have any synnergies) tnats all they say
Eternal witness is good because green tutors for creatures very easily and does not tutor for sorceries. You have a greater chance of getting out an eternal witness when you need it rather than having dumb luck and drawing into a regrowth. (Drawing isn't Green's strong suit)
Eternal Witness really doesnt belong on an overrated list.
I agree if you are in a tutor heavy green deck e-witness is great.
Pot of Greed is overrated
What does it do tho
You can't judge a card when you dont know what it does.
@@justinbowman1342 r/woosh
@@jeilastnamejei5831 right lol
@@jeilastnamejei5831 i guess what i should have said was "what does pot of greed do!?"
Part of the issue with this video is that these guys go into commander from the perspective of a competitive edh player. Their decks are tuned well enough that 7 cards out of 20 are enough to just win the game. As opposed to budget battlecruiser style no infinite combo decks that don't just win even with 20 cards in hand. This may be foreign to a lot of players, but many people don't want their commander decks to be as strong as possible. They want to play $30 not precon decks.
The other thing they don't realize is that in a $30 commander deck people don't have good fixing. Chromatic lantern is fine.
Sometimes mimic vat is the best card I play in a game. If that's not ever the case in your deck then you're probably playing more expensive cards like rhystic study.
So when you're discussing cards viability in a format, you have to approach it from the perspective of the higher end of the format. You cannot seriously argue that mimic vat is good in a non-competetive environment and as such the card is good in the format, that makes absolutely no sense.
Mimic vat and lantern are totally fine cards for low budget commander, but they are just not actually good commander cards if you have acces to the better options and have proper fixing in your landbase.
The problem with this video is that it's inconsistant, because slaughtering lantern and mimic vat because they are not good at higher end commander and then shit-talking force of will because it "costs a card", which is the line of thinking at lower ends where lantern is worthwhile, are just completely opposed ideas.
I also seriously doubt you could make an even decent commander deck at 30 bucks these days, 100 maybe
What I love about this episode is that your views can be so different so a lot if great points are made and contrasted. That doesn't happen when everyone agrees.
Ok, I've had mimic vat in Meren, and it hardly ever did anything, the fact that it can only activate once a turn, and at a mana cost I usually would rather just let it die.
How many other sources of reanimation are you running besides Meren? Do people kill Meren as often as they probably should be? I agree that sometimes I don't end up doing much or anything with my Mimic Vat in my Meren deck, though. But having that extra fun way to recur something when my Meren costs 6 or 8 and won't trigger til my end step is just clutch enough of the time to hold its slot. I'll definitely concede that it's a pet card and there might very well be (almost certainly is, in fact) another recursion option I'm not running that would be stronger, even if it's only used once.
My meta seems to have a lot more creature hate than artifact hate, though. So I get away with a significant amount more than I otherwise would, just because of that. Meren dies in a board-wipe, but my Vat snags something off anyone's board that I can either chug away with right away, or save for the right time. I can even get free damage in on the now-empty board if I don't mind antagonizing someone a bit.
Essefex I run a lot of reanimation, and tutoring, plus with the amount of ramp in the deck it doesn't really matter how many times Meren dies, I actually just let her go to the bin a lot cause it's easier to get her back from there. I'd probably play the vat, if there weren't more synergistic option s
I have never seen a game where a mimic vat could not have been activated. If JLK isn't having creatures die in roon then he should try attacking his opponents with them, then either they block and kill your thing so it can imprint, kill it so you can imprint, bounce it so you can recast it for its effect, waste some sort of better removal spell on it rather than say your commander or you get some damage and get a bit closer to winning the game. You can poo-poo combat all you want but it is a very strong and reliable method of dealing damage generally speaking.
Also Brandon Sanderson is fantastic great endstep!
Also also, if eternal witness is worse than regrowth do you also think that naturalize is better than reclamation sage? (not rhetorical that is a legit question) Also I think it is inconsistent to say that when you are playing and someone randomly swings a mana dork or something at you you need to make it known that that is not ok and then say that a 2/1 is pretty much irrelevant. In one case you are saying that every point of damage brings you closer to losing and therefore matters and in the other you are going with the classic "1 is not 0" and saying that most damage doesn't matter. I think either is fine just you should pick one.
I'm pretty sure that every deck can use the body, whether to sacrifice to an edict instead of your commander or to chip in for extra damage or to block a big attack. Token decks and tribal decks can pump it up, creature decks can tutor it, flicker/blink decks can abuse its etb and it is still has such a general effect as to be relevant in every deck where you would play the cheaper sorcery version. I would almost argue the other way around, that regrowth is only better when your deck specifically cares about instants and sorceries or when you want more redundancy in that effect.
Either way this was a good video to create some discussion keep up the good work!
The point about E Witness and Rec Sage is that the body isn't for free. You have to pay 1 extra mana on turns, where you probably also want to do something else (because you normally don't play them on curve).
Obviously having the effect on a creature is better when you have a way to reuse them somehow (reanimate, blink, bounce,...), but if your deck doesn't do that, then the mana efficiency probably outweighs the other advantages.
I definitely think that nature's claim is better than rec sage in most of my decks.
"Next were gonna talk about Reliquary tower"
*hides under blanket even though they cant see me*
I fundamentally disagree with DJ's opinion on reliquary tower and both of their opinions on duels. What was most baffling to me was DJ saying he wouldn't run reliquary tower because it slightly hurts the mana base, yet he doesn't think the duels are worth it despite increasing the consistency of the mana base, especially with fetches. In fact, ignoring budget, their is absolutely NO reason not to run every duel in your colors that you can, because they are simply the best lands and will increase the consistency of hitting your colors on time.
David Russo clearly you didn’t listen. They said Duals are fine, but they don’t increase your win % exponentially and make or break decks. “Adds consistency to your deck “ is a bad argument when is only 1-2% better at most
He just wants to stand out.
I wanted to thank you guys for this episode. It's unlikely that it's for the reasons you might think, however. Even though I disagree with nearly 50% of the cards you nominated, what you did really pound into my brain over and over again with all your back and forth, was how ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL it is to deeply consider each card in the deck. What I realized was that in too many cases, I became "blinded by the bling" of a card because of what it might do in situations that usually don't occur if my deck is simply more efficient and focused. I took a hard look at all my edh's and to my surprise, I ended up changing between 10-15 cards because they just weren't always pulling their weight. For that, I thank you for driving that point home. Kinda reminds me of the old song 🎶Blinded by the lights!🎶 by Manfred Mann.😂😁 Thanks again.
I think you people are confusing overrated with niche.
If a card is niche, but played in a wide variety of decks, it's overrated no?
@@RollerdinoGaming no
Force of Will is always better the more competitive you are.
I think thats in general a pretty interesting aspect of card evaluation.
A lot of cards vary in powerlevel
Depending on the power of the format or your playgroup.
They do have a point though. FoW has the flexibility of zero cost, but in a multi-player game it only makes sense in a very narrow set of circumstances. If you're casting it for zero, you either don't care about the card disadvantage or you have no choice. For a format that requires the maximum flexibility but also considering the politics of the play, Force isn't justifiable IMO.
@Jerry Smith do you actually know how the card works though?
jerry ... you exile a card... not discard. also im just now seeing these comments. Force of Will is a card that is a staple in any blue control deck or storm deck in Cedh. You need it to answer things when tapped out... or even bait their stuff when tapped out.
Also used on the turn you are going off, or stopping early game big plays. It doesn't matter as much in battle cruiser... it only cares in high lvl play.
@@blacklotusmoney right, thats pretty much what we were saying😉
So ready for jimmy to come back.
You ain't lying. DJ is overrated 😂
With the reliquary tower, one of the things you really forget in my oppinion is that discarding your cards sometimes mean that they're OUT OF YOUR DECK! That's a really important reason to run it in my oppinion, because you only have 1 copy of anything in your deck. The other thing I think you forget is that it doesn't really hurt your mana base at all, because decks that will run it are often very heavy on blue, maybe izzet or something but rarely 5 colors so I think in 2 colors you can easily afford having it in your deck. (That been said, I also think it's overrated, the difference between 7 and 9 cards isn't that big so less decks SHOULD play it.)
to add on the reliquary tower, if u are going to draw up to 17 cards in hand and you are ok discarding 10 of those you need to take a hard look at your deck and see which cards are such duds that you are ok discarding them. that should be an effect your opponent have to do to u not an effect you do to yourself.
The ability to counter something for 0 mana is very good period. No question.
*0 mana and discarding a card (while taking a point of damage).
John naranjo a point of damage or losing?
You definatly want reliquary tower in decks like Niv Mizzet Parun or basically any control deck with blue in it, because having all the answers is always worth it and one colorless land doesn't hurt most landbases if they are built correctly (not even 3-5 color, just run a chromatic lantern, its dirt cheap right know).
Niv Mizzet Parun is such a fun commander, i called it my card draw deck xD
@@enigma1924 Im actually building a Niv Mizzet deck right now, trying to play storm in Commander, I hope it works.
My wincon is so stupid....... I use that dramatic reversal and ischron scepter combo and draw basically everything and then i have a few cards that shuffle my hand and graveyard back into my library.
Also have cards like thousand year storm and other actual storm cards in just for fun...
@@enigma1924 I also play thousand year storm and some storm spells. In addition I have a spell that deals damage equal to my hand size (I try to copy it to win) and I put in Insurrection and Clone army as a backup-plan (psychosis crawler and locust god might also be able to win me some games)
Dj’s exact arguement for reliquary tower was Josh’s argument for mimic vat. And he didnt like it
no, dj was saying that there was NEVER a good situation for rec tower which was just wrong, wheras josh was saying that in order for the vat to be good, the vats OWNER needed to be the one providing it with targets.
Hey, great discussion, especially in comments. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents:
-You said to not take the data too seriously but continue to trash white and boros a bit too much. Ramp is the same as non-green and non-coffers decks. Still think minds eye is overrated though
-Original duals aren't worth it but if your budget allows them, you're likely playing a tuned deck. The data saying budget doesn't matter is subjective to playgroup given most sources have a "limit", so the budget difference was smaller than possible given tuned vs 'budget' decks. Same deal with force of will, if its going in a precon its because you like it not because its good
-reliquary tower has extra upside since mass discard is pretty rare but graveyard exile is more common. Cards in hand are also protected from opponents who could figure out your combos or strategy which affects threat assessment, though in that sense it maybe better to ditch and let get exiled so they don't stress over the person with 12+ cards in hand
-mimic vat is great in glissa, the traitor
Reliquary Tower....
I do think that DJ has a point, running a land that only produces colorless mana is a handicap in many decks.
Counter point DJ, I run the tower in only 2 of my 12 decks, Edric, Spymaster for Tress and Nekuzsar, the Mindraiser. Both decks have me drawing many cards and it is relatively often by turn 3 to 5 I'm at 8 to 12 cards in hand and with Edric, I want to play as many creatures as possible to draw more cards to either find a win condition or counter spells so I can make a play with Force of Will and drop down 2 cards and not care. In these cases, the Reliquary Tower is great and has a much desired effect on my game plan. Also, it is good against Overloaded Cyclonic Rift. I do not want the card banned, but let's be honest here. You do need to plan around it getting played at least once a game in many playgroups. If this is done late game, giving up 5 or more cards could really hurt.
Chromatic Lantern....
Chromatic Lantern is an interesting card. Personally, I'd say 4 and 5 color decks it is perfectly reasonable to run in and probably should be. In 3 color decks it would depend more on the commander running and I would just not run it in a 2 color deck, your mana rocks should be a 2 drop and net a mana, not 3 drops. I run Chromatic Lantern in 3 decks. 2 of them are five color Slivers and Ur Dragon) so the fixing is helpful and the other is a Sen Triplets deck that needs access to the other 2 colors.
Force of Will....
Agree, FoW gets better the more competitive you get. If you have one just lying around and just throw it in, that's cool too. You do you. But for the rest of us, yes I would say with a multi player format counters aren't as good of a play for you. Losing a card on top of that, it better be a do or die. Or not, it's commander and you play how you like, and is why I believe it is the best format.
Duals....
I sadly agree, even owning all of them they aren't much better than the shocks. Both can be fetched easily, both tap for 2 colors, and 2 damage isn't much in most commander games. However, if you have them, play them (I use proxies because why play a multi hundred dollar card in a just for fun format. My biggest argument against the duals is that they are on the reserve list and will never be reprinted. (I hope that is not true.) Personally, if it is on the reserve list, I'd kind of like it if they can't be played in commander and yes, I own Gaea's Cradles, Serra's Sanctums, WoF, and many others too. I'd like the most expensive card in all of magic to be only $100 so almost anyone can join the game and make a deck.
Thank you for reading my TED talk, I will most likely not be taking any questions. Have fun out there!