Imo all bans in any game boil down to "it's unfun." Akuma being better than everyone else makes for a meta game where it's all akuma and that's unfun. Flash hulk was fast and consistent so it was overcentralizing so flash was banned. In multiplayer games players are banned for cheating, hacking, etc. because they are making the game unfun for other players.
Which would be valid in other formats too tbh. I really think the big factor that makes edh fun is just because there's actually an effort to limit problematic cards that ruin the experience.
@christiantaylor12 Idk about video games, I think players are banned because cheating often consists of modifying and reverse engineering code that's licensed IP. Otherwise I agree.
Iona is banned because they got rid of banned as commander. That is the whole reason. Banned as commander NEEDS to come back because there are cards like Iona and Braids that are actually fine in the 99 but because wizards at the time thought the player base were too stupid to comprehend two ban lists they pressured the rules committee to get rid of it.
edit because I didn't finish my thought. Iona is legitimately a problem because it's a winter orb in the command zone. But if you simply make it not be in the command zone anymore everything becomes fine
I used to play Iona in my Kaalia. It was strong but never won me a game. Im not a dick tho to block someone out of the game. If somoene played mono color i just didnt say that color unless they were about to win and i wanted game to hold bit longer.
@@christophercombs7561 yeah but that’s Kaalia. Shocker of all shockers that one of the most powerful commanders ever made kinda does that lol. But would you say that even in your kaalia deck Iona is anywhere near deserving of the ban it has compared to others on the list?
34:50 I think you're understating the difference between Iona and Winter Orb/Stasis. The latter are definitely better lock pieces in general, but they can be answered by anyone affected by them at the table which, while a MonoBlack deck might have a harder time against Winter Orb than another player, it's still workable. Iona has no counterplay since the opponent cannot cast their spells of that color because it's literally just not in the cards to handle it since you cannot cast your cards.
@@blobface103 there're more or less 5 to 10 Colorless removal that are good enough to put on a deck, and even then, the colored removal is better, you would have to put a mid card instead of a top card, and even then, you would have to luck out to draw that single colorless removal of your 99 singles deck at the exact turn right after the opponent played iona
I am a huge advocate on bringing back ”banned as commander” and in Lutri’s case ”banned as a companion.” Many if not all of the old banned as commander cards would be ok in the 99 and we have the tools to both make them work and to make them go away. I hope the RC takes another look at them at some point. Liked the video, conscise, to the point and well argumented in the short time you allocated to each card. Many kudos. Also, personally, I’d ban Sol ring and mana crypt along with dockside and jeweled lotus.
Literally everyone is a huge advocte for bringing back the banned as commander (and as companion now I suppose) lists but for some reason the RC really, really hates the idea. Nobody ever even complained about it, they just did it of their own volition.
@HowardPhillipsMistaHoward when they were doing that even cards banned as a commander were still breaking the format. But this before commander product was was released. Once the product was released banned as a commander going away made since. As of late when a ban happens a unban comes with it.
@@autistic8bit203 I don't think banned as commander ever makes sense. If banned as commander cards were really so problematic in the 99 (they obviously weren't since many of them were just outright unbanned) then they could simply elevate them to a full ban. There are a few cards on the banlist that wouldn't be that problmeatic in the 99 (or as commander in Lutri's case) - that's reason enough to bring it back, since there isn't a single valid reason to have gotten rid of it in the first place.
@@MistaHoward i feel something to understand: the most important thing the RC emphasize is rule 0, in the sense of your group communicating and deciding the cards are fine, regardless of their general RC rulings
It hits? I feel more like it missed and its my first time,if this is always then hard pass on the rest, and I been playing mtg since 3rd edition. This isn't the same game anymore. 60 card is dead and 20-30 minute turns rule standard. Its literally defeating the point it was invented for
@@jamesmeppler6375my man this was video entirely about commander, why are you bringing up issues in other formats? Like I'm genuinly confused why you think this was a bad video. It didn't lie about the content in the video, and it was very informative to new and unfamiliar players. I don't disagree about what you said in the other formats, just confused why you brought it up under a commander video.
maybe an idea for the channel? a top 100 cards of all time, channelfireball did one a couple of years ago but since then there have been alot of new cards printed, (pre errata lurrus springs to mind), you could split the series over like 10 or so episodes and i think it could be alot of fun!, thanks for the videos anyways really enjoy all the channels.
The problem with Emrakul is that due to Annihilator 6 the player or players getting attacked by it are basically guaranteed to lose many turns later even if Emrakul itself can be easily removed. It's not a simmetrical effect, so many times it becomes a kingmaker card, increasing the winning chances of the single last person not attacked by Emrakul.
You forgot to mention that Erayo's Essence combos really well with Arcane Laboratory and other similar cards. Just completely shuts down your opponents.
The reason recurring nightmare is banned and Reanimate et al. are not is because those only need to be answered once. Recurring Nightmare requires a counterspell to stop it from doing what it's doing without graveyard hate while the other ones can be answered with creature and/or enchantment removal which was a lot more common in the format at the time it was banned. I think nowadays you could make an argument for unbanning it with how much incidental graveyard hate is in the format, so it doesn't force players to play otherwise dead cards like rip or grafdigger's cage. At the same time you could make the argument that it being legal would heavily favor the colors that have incidental graveyard hate, which is usually green/black/white, IE colors that don't really need more help than they already get. Also, a notable reason for the Griselban while Necropotence is still legal is that there is no way to draw 35 cards with Necro and have them available immediately or on your next turn. With necro, you pay 35 to draw 35, get the cards on your end step, then you discard them on the cleanup phase. With Griselbrand you can just wait until the next player's upkeep and draw 35 and have all of those cards available immediately and get to untap with 40+ cards in hand. If you do that with Necro, you get them on your next end step... then discard them. Griselbrand draw is basically guaranteed to find you a reliquary tower or similar to circumvent this, and you'll have that card in hand on your main phase unlike with necro.
I would say Iona is banned due to unbanning painters servant. Really reason to tooth and nail both of them. If tooth and nail is the card I’m thinking of. I’m not a green player. Painters servant bring more to the game than Iona. But if both of them where unbanned if you include one. There is no reason to not include the other.
A little tidbit about Gifts Ungiven, it's not banned because of the fact that you can make any 4-card win pile, but you could search for any 2 cards and then "fail to find" 2 more cards with different names, effectively an instant-speed 4-mana double tutor.
I think its important to remember, Iona was banned alongside Painter's Servant being unbanned, when put together those two cards completely lock your opponents out of the game, which is why Painter's Servant got banned originally,
The one issue I take with the video is that griselbrand and yawgmoth's bargain are being misrepresented against necro. Theres a few very key difference between the effects that matter a lot, notably the timing of when you get the cards and the fact that necro doesnt draw. The timing for griselbrand and yawgmoth's will is instant speed, you dont have to wait for the cards but instead you can draw in response to removal as opposed to necro where you can "draw" but wont get the cards until your next end step. Why is that so important of a difference? Because of the ability to dig on others turns, you can draw a bunch just before your turn with the two banned cards and have access to all of it as opposed to necro which you have to premptively "draw" to use next turn, likely discarding to hand size. This difference is a major reason why the effects arent equitable, sure they both let you dig through your deck but necro does it much worse which brings me to the second factor; Black has a lot of synergy for particularly drawing cards, namely with sheoldred, if you have sheoldred out then griselbrand and yawgmoth's bargain are free. This may seem like a minor thing but K'rrik storm decks in cEDH use a 4 card combo to achieve the same effect as a 2 card combo because they want cards the turn they're storming off and to gain life from drawing them to fuel their ability to cast spells. This isnt something necro is able to achieve since it isnt drawing, it's a very narrow use and doesnt combo well with many cards. Necro is by all means a strong card but not comparable to pay 1: draw 1 and sees very limited play outside of zur decks because of it being simply too slow. The comparison of Griselbrand to Razaketh was more fair since both are premium reanimate targets however, Griselbrand is undoubtedly the stronger one because it provides more value by itself, requiring a creature harms Razaketh a lot in the comparison even if it's a diabolic intent on a stick. My personal opinion is that necro should stay unbanned while griselbrand and yawg's bargain stays banned due to the stark differences in utility, all three can run away with the game but necro is just much slower and requires you to commit to a certain amount before knowing if you drew enough. Ive seen necro run away with games but all of those times I can samely say if it was griselbrand or yawg's bargain the game would've ended like 3 turns sooner.
Gifts ungiven is actually better, because of the "up to" effect. Say you choose 2 cards you desperately need in your graveyard because you have a necrotic ooze on the battlefield. The opponent is forced to choose both to put in your graveyard, giving them absolutely no choice, which is the intent of the card. In the right deck, it's much better.
The problem with flash hulk in cedh was that it enabled turn 0 wins, which made it so to b safe against any green blue decks u need a free counter spell in ur opening hand
I thought I was weird for falling asleep to these videos. I am not sure how I would feel knowing that a good portion of my audience uses all the research I do for videos as a sleep aid but I guess everyone has a niche and I glad these exist.
Iona is fully deserving of a ban as it means mono colored players instantly lose, since they'll have no way to interact with it or play around it. I am fine with winter orb, a "fair" stax piece that at least gives you a few turns to build up to casting something, or can be removed if you have the mana.
I doubt it plays out that way. If one person gets staxed out of the game, players will generally leave them alone. If you're the mono-coloured deck. You can just keep up your land drops and artifacts. Then when the Iona player gets killed off, you've got a full grip of cards to play. It's also a very risky play because it's weak vs. multicolour decks and weak vs. copy effects.
I think you're really underselling the "signpost ban" aspect. Commander is such a varied and personal format, the ban list should only dictate what cards you play in sanctioned events (even then, there should really be a "unless everyone at the table agrees" clause IMO). People really need to discuss what kind of game they're playing when they're planning for or sitting down for a commander session. I *would* prefer a separate signpost list for cards like this, so people *know* "this card isn't a powerlevel thing, so consider similar effects depending on the group's preferences" vs "this card is a problem" or "in the wrong deck, this is oppressive". But, again, the banned list shouldn't matter in most games. Most playgroups have an unspoken ban list anyway. You do briefly mention the committee's philosophy a few times, but only in passing. I feel like you could spend a bit longer on it, even if you disagree with it.
Agreed. I'd personally like to see a "ban" list that considers exclusively the competitive format, and a "warning post" list that frames itself as a kind of jumping off point for rule 0. Cards on the "warning post" list could reference effects like MLD, free counterspells, and untap locks as potential topics to bring up to your pod. But the truly "this card is not allowed in the format" list would only care about the competitive scene.
I played with and against Recurring Nightmare in eternal formats in the past. I don't ever want to see that card on the table in commander :D And gifts can find 4 "I win the game" cards instead of just 1 like a regular tutor, If you build your deck to play stuff from the grave, there's very little your opponents can do if it resolves.
Erayo isn't very bad in cEDH these days. my playgroup has rule 0'd it in for funsies and everybody was on high alert for it. It's definitely a kill-on-sight commander but no prepared table will ever let it flip. Once flipped, the Erayo player has a huge advantage, but pre-flip, it's a 3 on 1 and the Erayo player is very unlikely to have enough protection to counter the other players unless they were already in a winning position. Erayo is also more defensively oriented. An Erayo player who taps out on their turn to flip Erayo is significantly less likely to have enough free counters in hand to prevent another player from just winning with Thoracle or Breach on their turn after burning a useless spell to the Erayo trigger (in that instance, the Erayo may actually be protecting the opponents combo from more interaction). Also, Boseiju and Otawara make dealing with Erayo significantly easier these days. We haven't tested Rofellos but I doubt it's very strong. Green doesn't have great haste enablers and casting Rofellos early puts a huge target on your back. Re: Bargain - it's much stronger than Necropotence. Drawing the cards at the end of your turn and having to discard down is completely different from just drawing 30+ cards instantly. In cEDH, resolving a Bargain would win you the game most of the time. You now have access to plenty of free counterspells, 0 mana rocks, rituals etc. and you can time it for when opponents are tapped out. Necro is still very strong but turbo-ing one out doesn't play too different from a Rhystic or Remora. I'd still put Griselbrand above both in power level though.
An argument for Lutri to be unbanned is that is was banned under the old companion rule where you could cast it from the companion zone, and now you have to pay 3 mana just to put it in your hand
A good point, but it's honestly still way too powerful. The fact that you're able to just start with an 8th card in hand for literally no additional cost just because you have U/R in your deck is way too good.
I think the main problem with Iona vs similar effects like Stasis and Winter Orb is that Iona ONLY affects your opponents, while Stasis and Winter Orb also affect you. It creates a huge imbalance of power, especially if you target the color that’s most played in your current game. (I.e. everyone is running a deck with Red in it, so you choose Red with Iona.)
In argument for coalition Victory, the game is so much faster now that almost everyone and anyone can respond. It also only exists in radiance decks, meaning you have to play the (arguably) weakest commanders in the game (save for Sissay and Jodah, Ur-Dragon, but Ur probably wouldn't run this because why would they). The new Eldrazi have **devoid** so you can't win with this spell. I think it could use a remake where it's an artifact that grants the effect on the next upkeep, that way the alternate wincon still exists but has more time to react to it. This would make it similar to Door to Nothingness where insted of forcing someone to lose the game you just win the game.
One thing about the moxed that wasn’t mentioned was that they don’t have a color identity so if they were legal it would be 5 auto include cards that makes things more swingy (some hands will have 3, some lame hands will only have 1, and some unplayable hands will have none) and also compound the pricing problem given that once you get one you might as well go for all. Keep them banned
Mox cards (power 9, not Amber and Diamond), do have color identity. “Add [color mana written as text]” has all been errataed to “Add W/U/B/R/G.” This applies to all the older mana rocks like the Moxes and Bones of Ramos.
Theres a ton of way to do prophet of kruphix effects. Seedborn plus flash sliver or yeva The new 3 drop untap enchantment plus any flash enabler I guess the big difference is getting both in one go
Iona became banned at the same time painter's servant was unbanned. when iona calls the color painter's servant called, you shut out all opponents from playing colored spells. painter's servant wasn't really an issue since i'm not really sure if it's played in any decks aside from grindstone decks, oona, queen of the fae, and maybe scarecrow tribal. iona was always going to cause more issues if they were both unbanned at the same time so swapping the one potentially causing more issues (granted i don't know how widespread the problem was) with the one that is extremely niche in its use seems to make sense
I remember I had my brother's five colour general with an arrest on it. It was really his only asset on the board. I was running Zur with many of my best enchantments in play. He played coalition victory and I actually had a good laugh that I had managed to lose that game.
The commander banlist is a meme from a different time. It's literally just a guideline to build house rules on and at this point should just be abolished. Almost everything on there is weaker than Thoracle, Dockside, Rhystic, Opposition Agent, Necropotence, The One Ring, Survival of the Fittest and countless other cards not even including casual table wreckers like Markov, Kaalia, Krenko, The Ur-Dragon, Voja, Expropriate, Craterhoof and, again, countless other cards.
I read Recurring Nightmare and all I see is Palinchron. No matter where our old friend Pali is, field or graveyard, and any other ETB destroy creature (Ravenous Chupacabra, Eternal Witness, *ACIDIC SLIME* ), that could kickstart into what players hate most: A complete board wipe that didn’t also end the game. I think there are possibly even better ways to abuse the card, but that alone is why I think it should stay banned 💯💯 Edit: FYI Palinchron, Great Whale, and Peregrin Drake + 1 Bounceland, or any other ETB that nets 6 mana (2 black) is a necessary combo piece. I felt like that was the first impression I gave, so I don’t know why the two below me are braindead about it.
So it's a 3-card combo, RC, a ETB destroy effect and a second creature (one of the creatures starts in the GY). Then you get to destroy one permanent for every 6 mana you invest at sorcery speed? If that's game breaking at your tables then I think you guys can afford to raise the power level slightly 😆
@@wchenful hey dumbasses, you get a loop with the Palinchron I mentioned. In addition to sustaining the loop, that one also nets a mana every time. Kinda why I mentioned it. Easy as turn 4 to assemble the infinite.
At 5:06 you say the combo is mute this is which means silent or unable to speak what you clearly meant was moot which means not important functionaly impossible irrelevant or some other means of not mattering.
@@GigaBoost last time I checked, duelogs is much older channel and had 5 times more subscribers. He is know for his Yu-gi-oh channel more than his MTG channel
39:00 I'm really glad Upheaval is banned, because when I started playing commander breaking this kind of "symmetrical" effect was really compelling to me, and I would have frustrated all my friends by accident. However, I *did* end up casting Armageddon a couple times. The first time it just made someone else win. I went, "Ah, I see. With great power comes great responsibility. I will only cast this when I have a clearly winning boardstate." I put it in an artifact deck, then I maneuvered into a winning board, and slammed Armageddon! None of my friends conceded. We sat there while I attacked one of them for 10, then some of them played a land. Then I attacked the same person for 10, killing him. Then the other two drew, played land, and passed. It took like ten minutes of them going land-think-pass to kill everyone. I wish Armageddon and Ravages of War were also banned, saving new players from tricking themselves into this unfun play pattern.
Drannith Magistrate isn't even remotely comparable to Karakas. Yes, both can prevent opponents from putting legendary creatures onto the battlefield, but Karakas's real utility is the fact that you can use it to abuse "enter the battlefield" triggers on your own legendary creatures (like Breya for example). Karakas can also be used as a pseudo Maze of Ith to prevent yourself from taking combat damage from opposing legendary creatures. Also, if your opponent recasts their commander or any other legendary after having it bounced by Karakas, you've basically forced them to waste their mana, and by extension, their turn, which puts Karakas in a league of its own in terms of utility and viability that most cards can only dream of having.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Iona being banned at the same time Painter's Servant was unbanned. It's kind of obvious someone thought that Painter's Servant was fine on its own or could be fine with other combos, but having both it and Iona around together was considered too much. Iona might be rough against mono-coloured decks, but realistically there aren't that many of those around, and in multiplayer games someone is going to have an answer for her in a colour that wasn't named.
43:08 but to use reanimate effects on your commander you have to get it out of the commander zone first! Since the command zone is not your hand, you cant discard it, and since its also not your deck you can't mill your commander. I don't know of many ways of getting your commander out of the command zone outside of just paying the cost. Still putting the big guy as your commander gives you a very high degree of reliability, and 7 life on a 40 life format is peanuts
With leyline of anticipation or vedalcan Orrery and Seedborn Muse you have a harder to deal with prophet. However it does take a little bit longer to put together sometimes and it would also free up a card slot potentially.
The onees where people saying 'you can have your commander out' just remindes me how different pods play, I have played multiple games where my commander ends up at +12 commander tax (the record at our table was likr +36)
Compared with thoracle + consultation, coalition victory is unplayable. I can't understand its banning 8mana sorcery vs 3 mana 2 card win. I don't see why these can't also be abused in low power level tables. Both cards are not that expensive. I've seen pretty much every blue deck having thoracle in it
Iona could also be played as a commander, not to mention that the difference in not untapping and not being able to play cards are very different! Oh, and Iona's ability doesn't affect the player playing it, unlike Stasis or Winter orb, that both affect everyone... The comparison would be if Armageddon only destroyed opponents lands, and not yours...
There's a version of Balance called Restore Balance that is only 1 mana, but it's suspend 6. I guess the suspend mechanic makes it fair. There are a couple of ways to get that out a little faster though, but I guess by the time you pay those costs, Balance is restored.
Trade Secrets has always confused me as a card. I feel like I have to be misunderstanding it since I've never seen anyone else mention this, but what is stopping the targeted opponent from forcing the caster into drawing their entire deck out? If I get targeted, what is stopping me from drawing 60 cards and forcing my opponent to draw 120 cards and lose automatically? Edit: I just reread and for the first time noticed the part that says "up to four"
I have a golos deck that I built when he was legal and I've been known to play him consistently by turn 2 and usin his ability turn 3 or 4 and by turn 6 I'd use his ability upwards of 6 or 7 times dependin on whether or not I had also gotten Ramos on the field as well as jegantha I still have it and it's disgustin and I love it
if I were to change limited resources I would remove the bottom text and and at the begining of each players end step each player chooses 5 lands and sacs the rest still keeps the cards intended effect as a stax effect and punisher of land ramp but not as lobsided in commander
thing is, we had a few players in our extended play group playing banned cards, was never a issue, but we also have cedh decks play with fun decks (2 - 3 power level or restrictions like 25$ budget) in the same pod... when people play for fun, those cards are less of an issue, compared to people playing for the win
I can hardly imagine a round of commander being fun if 2 players play 25$ decks and the other 2 blue farm and rogsai. The latter 2 can just win turn 1 while the others played a tapped land
I mean there is one reason. It is a legendary creature (iona). I don't always draw my winter orb. But I will always have access to my Iona, and if I know I have access to it, then I can build a deck that will make sure I get it out as fast as possible and make sure it wont be countered. I would say there is definitely good arguments for unbanning it. But I think you should have at least gotten into the fact that as your commander you have access to it no matter what. While I don't think that counts for Cedh, for casual I can see it being very suppresive to play against.
Gifts ungiven has been errata'd because its hidden ability that you dont have to choose 4 cards, and can instead just choose 2 and dump them directly into the graveyard. Another argument to ban gifts is the prevalence of graveyard hate, same as Reoccurring Nightmare.
The issues with Leovold and Harbinger are two different reasons of the same outcome. Leovold was immensely consistent to lock everyone out of the game. Harbinger was completely accessible to anyone with blue, being blue and 2 colourless, and was just thrown in to every blue deck because its effect puts you into the driver seat every single time. Hell, it would've been run with leovold. The amount of extra cards in commander that come out of nowhere dont only get nullified, but turn into your advancement. It's not a -1, it's a -1 +1 gap double dipping success. These both are troubling for competitive AND casual play, by the majority of players. :)
A thing to note with Erayo... Its flip does not say your turn. So it's even more consistent. If this was not a legendary, it would be a blip on the radar, but not game ending this way. The consistency of being a commander was too much.
@@jamesthomas6984 Our cEDH group playtested Erayo, it's strong but not that amazing (and quite often bad for the owner of the Erayo). A flipped Erayo often protected an opponent's combo. The owner of the Erayo has usually expended a lot of resources to resolve and flip it, meaning they are less likely to have interaction up in hand. Meanwhile, someone following in turn order is still quite likely to be able to resolve something like a thoracle or breach combo through Erayo. The Erayo counters the first throwaway spell (which would have likely been something like a Grand Abolisher effect anyway) and then prevents the other two players from countering the combo.
I don't think it's fair to pair primeval titan with sylvan primordial. The former simply grabs you two tapped lands (it can grab more on attack trigger, but lets be honest, its most likely not living that long) that at best grabs you combo lands and massively telegraphs what you're planning. The latter removes up to three opponents permanents and grabs you that many lands, effectively +6 in card advantage. Its an extremely huge swing with few limitations on situational applicability that absolutely breaks the board in a very unfair and unfun way. As a scummy Yarok main at heart, I think primetime could absolutely be unbanned and just be a powerful green staple, but sylvan primordial should absolutely stay banned.
It could be argued that a panoptic mirror victory is different from the non-banned combos will take a very long time to resolve and forcing everyone to just sit and wait for the caster to finish their single player gane so it's just a lot more tedious than playing/triggering them and saying gg
I'm 4 months late but: Iona being banned was a result of it usually being unfun to play against on top of them unbanning Painter's Servant. banning her as commander would do nothing either because it's easier to tutor for her. any green/white deck would probably include that combo, and it's not really hard to Tooth and Nail Entwine as early as turn 4 or 5
That's competing with t1 Intuition LED Breach combos so the power level argument is somewhat weak. And since Tooth and Nail is still legal, it's competing against a multitude of other 2-creature combos which are far stronger since the individual pieces are very playable (eg. Dockside + Emiel)
I think the most egregious thing about Library of Alexandria being banned is that Mishra's Workshop, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Timetwister are all legal, so clearly there's no issue with commander legal cards costing multiple thousands of dollars, and I would argue that all of them are, in their own ways, at least around, if not above, the power level of the Library
None of the three cards you mentioned have an average power level higher than Library. Mishra's Workshop can be situationally stronger but only in a very limited set of artifact decks (and would still be subject to RNG whereas an opening hand Library will practically always draw 3+ cards). Timetwister is a great wheel but most competitive decks only want to run one copy of this effect and Wheel of Fortune is generally considered the stronger option since it enables the GY. Tabernacle is unplayable in 95% of decks - literally worse than any basic land.
Intuition is worse, you get two into your hand, intuition requires you to have a recursion effect on top of it to get the other piece, or a flashback effect like you said. Having to pay mana to do more things to combo off matters, one isn’t it a big deal which is why I see why gifts is banned, intuition requires extra cards and for you to pay more mana.
Intuition tutors for Underworld Breach + Lion's Eye Diamond + Sevinne's Reclamation which is generally game over. This is one of the most common packages in cEDH decks where these effects are played. I doubt either would be regularly played at casual tables.
Im glad to know that there's a big enough demand for this, meaning I'm definitely not the only one who this is perfect for
I don’t even play commander but this is the peak
Commander after all the way, this is just the best
@@drain1718I don’t even play MTG anymore but this stuff is neat
I hate stupid commander and love sleep perfect honestly lol
I love how so many of these are like "This card is unfun. Commander is supposed to be fun. Ban the card. Next slide."
Imo all bans in any game boil down to "it's unfun." Akuma being better than everyone else makes for a meta game where it's all akuma and that's unfun. Flash hulk was fast and consistent so it was overcentralizing so flash was banned. In multiplayer games players are banned for cheating, hacking, etc. because they are making the game unfun for other players.
Which would be valid in other formats too tbh. I really think the big factor that makes edh fun is just because there's actually an effort to limit problematic cards that ruin the experience.
@christiantaylor12 Idk about video games, I think players are banned because cheating often consists of modifying and reverse engineering code that's licensed IP. Otherwise I agree.
And thoracle is allowed to exist.
Yet somehow Mindslaver is still legal. Id rather play against all five Moxes and a Black Lotus than to play against another Mindslaver.
I hate the copium the banning committee has against some of these cards. But thorcle combo is fine because "it's not seen at a casual level"
“Not seen at casual level” is so blatantly false
Or dovescape fr
And it's not seen at casual levels because those tables soft ban it.
@@ACEYGAMES it’s like an unspoken rule
I see thoracle at casual tables every week.. unban coalition victory !
Literally fell asleep on the first card. Thank you, liked and subbed. Video saved to sleep playlist.
Same here 😂
that's blue for ya (plays blue)
Iona is banned because they got rid of banned as commander. That is the whole reason. Banned as commander NEEDS to come back because there are cards like Iona and Braids that are actually fine in the 99 but because wizards at the time thought the player base were too stupid to comprehend two ban lists they pressured the rules committee to get rid of it.
edit because I didn't finish my thought. Iona is legitimately a problem because it's a winter orb in the command zone. But if you simply make it not be in the command zone anymore everything becomes fine
I used to play Iona in my Kaalia. It was strong but never won me a game. Im not a dick tho to block someone out of the game. If somoene played mono color i just didnt say that color unless they were about to win and i wanted game to hold bit longer.
@szymonmika6844 i have it in my kaalia deck and it has 100% won me a game along side avacyn and sephara tue skys blade lol
@@christophercombs7561 yeah but that’s Kaalia. Shocker of all shockers that one of the most powerful commanders ever made kinda does that lol. But would you say that even in your kaalia deck Iona is anywhere near deserving of the ban it has compared to others on the list?
@@recapdrake a ban no but i have always been opposed to baned lists there are too many cards in magic theres always an unexpected answer to everything
34:50 I think you're understating the difference between Iona and Winter Orb/Stasis. The latter are definitely better lock pieces in general, but they can be answered by anyone affected by them at the table which, while a MonoBlack deck might have a harder time against Winter Orb than another player, it's still workable. Iona has no counterplay since the opponent cannot cast their spells of that color because it's literally just not in the cards to handle it since you cannot cast your cards.
I had a deck all about that like 15 years ago!
There are several colorless kill spells to deal with this.
@@MrCenturion13yeah, but are you going to god draw then? Probably not
I just think there's several cards that do things like this already
@@blobface103 there're more or less 5 to 10 Colorless removal that are good enough to put on a deck, and even then, the colored removal is better, you would have to put a mid card instead of a top card, and even then, you would have to luck out to draw that single colorless removal of your 99 singles deck at the exact turn right after the opponent played iona
I am a huge advocate on bringing back ”banned as commander” and in Lutri’s case ”banned as a companion.” Many if not all of the old banned as commander cards would be ok in the 99 and we have the tools to both make them work and to make them go away. I hope the RC takes another look at them at some point.
Liked the video, conscise, to the point and well argumented in the short time you allocated to each card. Many kudos.
Also, personally, I’d ban Sol ring and mana crypt along with dockside and jeweled lotus.
Literally everyone is a huge advocte for bringing back the banned as commander (and as companion now I suppose) lists but for some reason the RC really, really hates the idea. Nobody ever even complained about it, they just did it of their own volition.
@HowardPhillipsMistaHoward when they were doing that even cards banned as a commander were still breaking the format. But this before commander product was was released. Once the product was released banned as a commander going away made since. As of late when a ban happens a unban comes with it.
@@autistic8bit203 I don't think banned as commander ever makes sense. If banned as commander cards were really so problematic in the 99 (they obviously weren't since many of them were just outright unbanned) then they could simply elevate them to a full ban. There are a few cards on the banlist that wouldn't be that problmeatic in the 99 (or as commander in Lutri's case) - that's reason enough to bring it back, since there isn't a single valid reason to have gotten rid of it in the first place.
Same. Honestly same
@@MistaHoward i feel something to understand: the most important thing the RC emphasize is rule 0, in the sense of your group communicating and deciding the cards are fine, regardless of their general RC rulings
This is better than any Lofi video I've ever listened to.
Im telling lofi girl
Love how you basically stitched all this videos together, I wonder how the algorithm will react
I've been falling asleep with theese videos for more than year😍😍
This is the best lullaby ever.
Keep it going.
This channel just always hits, we appreciate your hard work 🎉
It hits? I feel more like it missed and its my first time,if this is always then hard pass on the rest, and I been playing mtg since 3rd edition. This isn't the same game anymore. 60 card is dead and 20-30 minute turns rule standard. Its literally defeating the point it was invented for
@@jamesmeppler6375my man this was video entirely about commander, why are you bringing up issues in other formats? Like I'm genuinly confused why you think this was a bad video. It didn't lie about the content in the video, and it was very informative to new and unfamiliar players. I don't disagree about what you said in the other formats, just confused why you brought it up under a commander video.
@@bendysbrother7447bro is upset about the game and somehow thinks it's the video's fault, no idea
It do pump out some bangers
Awesome vid! Starting playing commander around 2015-16 so a lot of these already had the ban hammer. It’s fun to see why they where banned!
maybe an idea for the channel? a top 100 cards of all time, channelfireball did one a couple of years ago but since then there have been alot of new cards printed, (pre errata lurrus springs to mind), you could split the series over like 10 or so episodes and i think it could be alot of fun!, thanks for the videos anyways really enjoy all the channels.
The problem with Emrakul is that due to Annihilator 6 the player or players getting attacked by it are basically guaranteed to lose many turns later even if Emrakul itself can be easily removed. It's not a simmetrical effect, so many times it becomes a kingmaker card, increasing the winning chances of the single last person not attacked by Emrakul.
Thank you I always use your videos for this purpose and this video is like th perfected form of that
You forgot to mention that Erayo's Essence combos really well with Arcane Laboratory and other similar cards. Just completely shuts down your opponents.
I’ve been waiting for this for a while. I’ve just been finding a manalogs video then trying to fall asleep in time
The reason recurring nightmare is banned and Reanimate et al. are not is because those only need to be answered once. Recurring Nightmare requires a counterspell to stop it from doing what it's doing without graveyard hate while the other ones can be answered with creature and/or enchantment removal which was a lot more common in the format at the time it was banned.
I think nowadays you could make an argument for unbanning it with how much incidental graveyard hate is in the format, so it doesn't force players to play otherwise dead cards like rip or grafdigger's cage. At the same time you could make the argument that it being legal would heavily favor the colors that have incidental graveyard hate, which is usually green/black/white, IE colors that don't really need more help than they already get.
Also, a notable reason for the Griselban while Necropotence is still legal is that there is no way to draw 35 cards with Necro and have them available immediately or on your next turn. With necro, you pay 35 to draw 35, get the cards on your end step, then you discard them on the cleanup phase. With Griselbrand you can just wait until the next player's upkeep and draw 35 and have all of those cards available immediately and get to untap with 40+ cards in hand. If you do that with Necro, you get them on your next end step... then discard them. Griselbrand draw is basically guaranteed to find you a reliquary tower or similar to circumvent this, and you'll have that card in hand on your main phase unlike with necro.
I would say Iona is banned due to unbanning painters servant. Really reason to tooth and nail both of them. If tooth and nail is the card I’m thinking of. I’m not a green player.
Painters servant bring more to the game than Iona. But if both of them where unbanned if you include one. There is no reason to not include the other.
that otter kinda cute tho
A little tidbit about Gifts Ungiven, it's not banned because of the fact that you can make any 4-card win pile, but you could search for any 2 cards and then "fail to find" 2 more cards with different names, effectively an instant-speed 4-mana double tutor.
not precisely, if you search 2 cards those are the ones that go to the graveyard. it can be a double garuanteed entomb not a demonic tutor
@@willemboele2079so a bad instant speed buried alive 😅
@@dylansylvester4719 oooof you shouldn't show your bronze.
We really need to bring back the banned as commander list. Braids isn't the worst when you have to draw it first
And my baby Lutri
@@GigaBoost no
@@FalseOracle617 Well, banned as companion.
I think its important to remember, Iona was banned alongside Painter's Servant being unbanned, when put together those two cards completely lock your opponents out of the game, which is why Painter's Servant got banned originally,
Phenomenal job. Saved to the playlist.
Honestly its chill as hell
The one issue I take with the video is that griselbrand and yawgmoth's bargain are being misrepresented against necro. Theres a few very key difference between the effects that matter a lot, notably the timing of when you get the cards and the fact that necro doesnt draw.
The timing for griselbrand and yawgmoth's will is instant speed, you dont have to wait for the cards but instead you can draw in response to removal as opposed to necro where you can "draw" but wont get the cards until your next end step. Why is that so important of a difference? Because of the ability to dig on others turns, you can draw a bunch just before your turn with the two banned cards and have access to all of it as opposed to necro which you have to premptively "draw" to use next turn, likely discarding to hand size. This difference is a major reason why the effects arent equitable, sure they both let you dig through your deck but necro does it much worse which brings me to the second factor;
Black has a lot of synergy for particularly drawing cards, namely with sheoldred, if you have sheoldred out then griselbrand and yawgmoth's bargain are free. This may seem like a minor thing but K'rrik storm decks in cEDH use a 4 card combo to achieve the same effect as a 2 card combo because they want cards the turn they're storming off and to gain life from drawing them to fuel their ability to cast spells. This isnt something necro is able to achieve since it isnt drawing, it's a very narrow use and doesnt combo well with many cards.
Necro is by all means a strong card but not comparable to pay 1: draw 1 and sees very limited play outside of zur decks because of it being simply too slow. The comparison of Griselbrand to Razaketh was more fair since both are premium reanimate targets however, Griselbrand is undoubtedly the stronger one because it provides more value by itself, requiring a creature harms Razaketh a lot in the comparison even if it's a diabolic intent on a stick.
My personal opinion is that necro should stay unbanned while griselbrand and yawg's bargain stays banned due to the stark differences in utility, all three can run away with the game but necro is just much slower and requires you to commit to a certain amount before knowing if you drew enough. Ive seen necro run away with games but all of those times I can samely say if it was griselbrand or yawg's bargain the game would've ended like 3 turns sooner.
oooof that Nerco take of seeing limited play lolol
Holy shit mayor of yappersville
Yeah, Yawgmoth's Bargain is *so* much better than Necropotence. it's not even close.
@@nomatyx5789 Lol its not so much better that its not even close.
@@FearOgre Lol
Gifts ungiven is actually better, because of the "up to" effect.
Say you choose 2 cards you desperately need in your graveyard because you have a necrotic ooze on the battlefield. The opponent is forced to choose both to put in your graveyard, giving them absolutely no choice, which is the intent of the card. In the right deck, it's much better.
The problem with flash hulk in cedh was that it enabled turn 0 wins, which made it so to b safe against any green blue decks u need a free counter spell in ur opening hand
I thought I was weird for falling asleep to these videos. I am not sure how I would feel knowing that a good portion of my audience uses all the research I do for videos as a sleep aid but I guess everyone has a niche and I glad these exist.
Iona is fully deserving of a ban as it means mono colored players instantly lose, since they'll have no way to interact with it or play around it. I am fine with winter orb, a "fair" stax piece that at least gives you a few turns to build up to casting something, or can be removed if you have the mana.
I doubt it plays out that way. If one person gets staxed out of the game, players will generally leave them alone. If you're the mono-coloured deck. You can just keep up your land drops and artifacts. Then when the Iona player gets killed off, you've got a full grip of cards to play. It's also a very risky play because it's weak vs. multicolour decks and weak vs. copy effects.
29:43 but Notion Thief also has flash....
he's not good enough though
I think you're really underselling the "signpost ban" aspect. Commander is such a varied and personal format, the ban list should only dictate what cards you play in sanctioned events (even then, there should really be a "unless everyone at the table agrees" clause IMO). People really need to discuss what kind of game they're playing when they're planning for or sitting down for a commander session.
I *would* prefer a separate signpost list for cards like this, so people *know* "this card isn't a powerlevel thing, so consider similar effects depending on the group's preferences" vs "this card is a problem" or "in the wrong deck, this is oppressive". But, again, the banned list shouldn't matter in most games. Most playgroups have an unspoken ban list anyway.
You do briefly mention the committee's philosophy a few times, but only in passing. I feel like you could spend a bit longer on it, even if you disagree with it.
Agreed. I'd personally like to see a "ban" list that considers exclusively the competitive format, and a "warning post" list that frames itself as a kind of jumping off point for rule 0. Cards on the "warning post" list could reference effects like MLD, free counterspells, and untap locks as potential topics to bring up to your pod. But the truly "this card is not allowed in the format" list would only care about the competitive scene.
ok I just came to youtube to find something to sleep to so this is it, nice
59:35 oof 1:01:25 double oof
I played with and against Recurring Nightmare in eternal formats in the past. I don't ever want to see that card on the table in commander :D And gifts can find 4 "I win the game" cards instead of just 1 like a regular tutor, If you build your deck to play stuff from the grave, there's very little your opponents can do if it resolves.
I think Iona is a pretty reasonable ban, actually. The format already tends towards multicolor piles of cards, no need to incentivize that further.
I mean it was in the format for like 10 years and it was totally fine but to each their own
This is great for background at work too
what about frontground work?
Finally an asmr to fall asleep content, I can't get behind.
Erayo isn't very bad in cEDH these days. my playgroup has rule 0'd it in for funsies and everybody was on high alert for it. It's definitely a kill-on-sight commander but no prepared table will ever let it flip. Once flipped, the Erayo player has a huge advantage, but pre-flip, it's a 3 on 1 and the Erayo player is very unlikely to have enough protection to counter the other players unless they were already in a winning position. Erayo is also more defensively oriented. An Erayo player who taps out on their turn to flip Erayo is significantly less likely to have enough free counters in hand to prevent another player from just winning with Thoracle or Breach on their turn after burning a useless spell to the Erayo trigger (in that instance, the Erayo may actually be protecting the opponents combo from more interaction). Also, Boseiju and Otawara make dealing with Erayo significantly easier these days. We haven't tested Rofellos but I doubt it's very strong. Green doesn't have great haste enablers and casting Rofellos early puts a huge target on your back.
Re: Bargain - it's much stronger than Necropotence. Drawing the cards at the end of your turn and having to discard down is completely different from just drawing 30+ cards instantly. In cEDH, resolving a Bargain would win you the game most of the time. You now have access to plenty of free counterspells, 0 mana rocks, rituals etc. and you can time it for when opponents are tapped out. Necro is still very strong but turbo-ing one out doesn't play too different from a Rhystic or Remora. I'd still put Griselbrand above both in power level though.
An argument for Lutri to be unbanned is that is was banned under the old companion rule where you could cast it from the companion zone, and now you have to pay 3 mana just to put it in your hand
This is true.
Imo it's still broken (Izzet decks get to start with an 8-card hand) but it used to be even stronger!
A good point, but it's honestly still way too powerful. The fact that you're able to just start with an 8th card in hand for literally no additional cost just because you have U/R in your deck is way too good.
I think the main problem with Iona vs similar effects like Stasis and Winter Orb is that Iona ONLY affects your opponents, while Stasis and Winter Orb also affect you.
It creates a huge imbalance of power, especially if you target the color that’s most played in your current game. (I.e. everyone is running a deck with Red in it, so you choose Red with Iona.)
In argument for coalition Victory, the game is so much faster now that almost everyone and anyone can respond. It also only exists in radiance decks, meaning you have to play the (arguably) weakest commanders in the game (save for Sissay and Jodah, Ur-Dragon, but Ur probably wouldn't run this because why would they). The new Eldrazi have **devoid** so you can't win with this spell.
I think it could use a remake where it's an artifact that grants the effect on the next upkeep, that way the alternate wincon still exists but has more time to react to it. This would make it similar to Door to Nothingness where insted of forcing someone to lose the game you just win the game.
Lolol thinking 5c is weak and not even listing Kenrith or Najeela
32:36 glad to see racism isn’t tolerated in magic
One thing about the moxed that wasn’t mentioned was that they don’t have a color identity so if they were legal it would be 5 auto include cards that makes things more swingy (some hands will have 3, some lame hands will only have 1, and some unplayable hands will have none) and also compound the pricing problem given that once you get one you might as well go for all. Keep them banned
Mox cards (power 9, not Amber and Diamond), do have color identity. “Add [color mana written as text]” has all been errataed to “Add W/U/B/R/G.”
This applies to all the older mana rocks like the Moxes and Bones of Ramos.
@@username4835 that’s right, I was wrong there. Thanks for the correction
lmao, i woke up with this video playing in the morning and i read the title
Love this. Learning so much.
Must have fallen asleep while setting up the chapters.
"Eh forget it, no one will care."
Theres a ton of way to do prophet of kruphix effects.
Seedborn plus flash sliver or yeva
The new 3 drop untap enchantment plus any flash enabler
I guess the big difference is getting both in one go
Iona became banned at the same time painter's servant was unbanned. when iona calls the color painter's servant called, you shut out all opponents from playing colored spells. painter's servant wasn't really an issue since i'm not really sure if it's played in any decks aside from grindstone decks, oona, queen of the fae, and maybe scarecrow tribal. iona was always going to cause more issues if they were both unbanned at the same time so swapping the one potentially causing more issues (granted i don't know how widespread the problem was) with the one that is extremely niche in its use seems to make sense
I remember I had my brother's five colour general with an arrest on it. It was really his only asset on the board. I was running Zur with many of my best enchantments in play. He played coalition victory and I actually had a good laugh that I had managed to lose that game.
The commander banlist is a meme from a different time. It's literally just a guideline to build house rules on and at this point should just be abolished. Almost everything on there is weaker than Thoracle, Dockside, Rhystic, Opposition Agent, Necropotence, The One Ring, Survival of the Fittest and countless other cards not even including casual table wreckers like Markov, Kaalia, Krenko, The Ur-Dragon, Voja, Expropriate, Craterhoof and, again, countless other cards.
i didnt even read the title and i fell asleep to this.
I read Recurring Nightmare and all I see is Palinchron. No matter where our old friend Pali is, field or graveyard, and any other ETB destroy creature (Ravenous Chupacabra, Eternal Witness, *ACIDIC SLIME* ), that could kickstart into what players hate most: A complete board wipe that didn’t also end the game. I think there are possibly even better ways to abuse the card, but that alone is why I think it should stay banned 💯💯
Edit: FYI Palinchron, Great Whale, and Peregrin Drake + 1 Bounceland, or any other ETB that nets 6 mana (2 black) is a necessary combo piece. I felt like that was the first impression I gave, so I don’t know why the two below me are braindead about it.
a boardwipe for 30 mana or so?
@@ulfurfemogfyrre8078 You’re online, read what Palinchron does
So it's a 3-card combo, RC, a ETB destroy effect and a second creature (one of the creatures starts in the GY). Then you get to destroy one permanent for every 6 mana you invest at sorcery speed? If that's game breaking at your tables then I think you guys can afford to raise the power level slightly 😆
@@wchenful hey dumbasses, you get a loop with the Palinchron I mentioned. In addition to sustaining the loop, that one also nets a mana every time. Kinda why I mentioned it. Easy as turn 4 to assemble the infinite.
Perfect timing I was about to fall asleep finally
At 5:06 you say the combo is mute this is which means silent or unable to speak what you clearly meant was moot which means not important functionaly impossible irrelevant or some other means of not mattering.
... I was just looking for something to help me fall asleep thank you
Incredible. I actually fell asleep to this
The duel logs has a MTG channel! this is awesome!
No
@@GigaBoost yes
@@Hairybarryy the mana logs has a yugi channel
@@GigaBoost last time I checked, duelogs is much older channel and had 5 times more subscribers. He is know for his Yu-gi-oh channel more than his MTG channel
39:00 I'm really glad Upheaval is banned, because when I started playing commander breaking this kind of "symmetrical" effect was really compelling to me, and I would have frustrated all my friends by accident.
However, I *did* end up casting Armageddon a couple times. The first time it just made someone else win. I went, "Ah, I see. With great power comes great responsibility. I will only cast this when I have a clearly winning boardstate."
I put it in an artifact deck, then I maneuvered into a winning board, and slammed Armageddon!
None of my friends conceded. We sat there while I attacked one of them for 10, then some of them played a land. Then I attacked the same person for 10, killing him. Then the other two drew, played land, and passed. It took like ten minutes of them going land-think-pass to kill everyone.
I wish Armageddon and Ravages of War were also banned, saving new players from tricking themselves into this unfun play pattern.
Drannith Magistrate isn't even remotely comparable to Karakas. Yes, both can prevent opponents from putting legendary creatures onto the battlefield, but Karakas's real utility is the fact that you can use it to abuse "enter the battlefield" triggers on your own legendary creatures (like Breya for example). Karakas can also be used as a pseudo Maze of Ith to prevent yourself from taking combat damage from opposing legendary creatures. Also, if your opponent recasts their commander or any other legendary after having it bounced by Karakas, you've basically forced them to waste their mana, and by extension, their turn, which puts Karakas in a league of its own in terms of utility and viability that most cards can only dream of having.
I agree with the emrakrul take, it should be unbanned.
I'm surprised there was no mention of Iona being banned at the same time Painter's Servant was unbanned. It's kind of obvious someone thought that Painter's Servant was fine on its own or could be fine with other combos, but having both it and Iona around together was considered too much. Iona might be rough against mono-coloured decks, but realistically there aren't that many of those around, and in multiplayer games someone is going to have an answer for her in a colour that wasn't named.
oh the irony, commander is my fav format and panoptic mirror my favorite card in magic how will i ever recover
I think Iona was also chosen because it can target a single player out rather than affecting everyone at the table.
One of my favorite two card combos witherbloom apprentice with chain of smog pretty nice i use it in my high powered meren of clan nel toth deck
43:08 but to use reanimate effects on your commander you have to get it out of the commander zone first! Since the command zone is not your hand, you cant discard it, and since its also not your deck you can't mill your commander. I don't know of many ways of getting your commander out of the command zone outside of just paying the cost. Still putting the big guy as your commander gives you a very high degree of reliability, and 7 life on a 40 life format is peanuts
With leyline of anticipation or vedalcan Orrery and Seedborn Muse you have a harder to deal with prophet. However it does take a little bit longer to put together sometimes and it would also free up a card slot potentially.
It's two cards compared to one. That's the major reason why it's baneed
9 mana + 2 cards across two permanent types is not the same as 5 mana + 1 card
@FearOgre You are correct it's potentially much better because instead of it just targeting creatures it does everything.
The onees where people saying 'you can have your commander out' just remindes me how different pods play, I have played multiple games where my commander ends up at +12 commander tax (the record at our table was likr +36)
1:37 glad to hear Logs has studied at the Scott Steiner School of mathematical probability too.
I miss Iona, but she was bad! I played a game where me and another player played an iona and shut out the two other players
Any channel that great people talking should release one of this videos
I have an annoying voice unfortunately... and I cant read
Compared with thoracle + consultation, coalition victory is unplayable. I can't understand its banning 8mana sorcery vs 3 mana 2 card win.
I don't see why these can't also be abused in low power level tables. Both cards are not that expensive. I've seen pretty much every blue deck having thoracle in it
$35 combo
Iona could also be played as a commander, not to mention that the difference in not untapping and not being able to play cards are very different!
Oh, and Iona's ability doesn't affect the player playing it, unlike Stasis or Winter orb, that both affect everyone...
The comparison would be if Armageddon only destroyed opponents lands, and not yours...
There's a version of Balance called Restore Balance that is only 1 mana, but it's suspend 6. I guess the suspend mechanic makes it fair. There are a couple of ways to get that out a little faster though, but I guess by the time you pay those costs, Balance is restored.
Trade Secrets has always confused me as a card. I feel like I have to be misunderstanding it since I've never seen anyone else mention this, but what is stopping the targeted opponent from forcing the caster into drawing their entire deck out? If I get targeted, what is stopping me from drawing 60 cards and forcing my opponent to draw 120 cards and lose automatically? Edit: I just reread and for the first time noticed the part that says "up to four"
You don't need to draw the cards, it says "draw up to 4 cards".
I have a golos deck that I built when he was legal and I've been known to play him consistently by turn 2 and usin his ability turn 3 or 4 and by turn 6 I'd use his ability upwards of 6 or 7 times dependin on whether or not I had also gotten Ramos on the field as well as jegantha I still have it and it's disgustin and I love it
if I were to change limited resources I would remove the bottom text and and at the begining of each players end step each player chooses 5 lands and sacs the rest still keeps the cards intended effect as a stax effect and punisher of land ramp but not as lobsided in commander
thing is, we had a few players in our extended play group playing banned cards, was never a issue, but we also have cedh decks play with fun decks (2 - 3 power level or restrictions like 25$ budget) in the same pod... when people play for fun, those cards are less of an issue, compared to people playing for the win
I can hardly imagine a round of commander being fun if 2 players play 25$ decks and the other 2 blue farm and rogsai. The latter 2 can just win turn 1 while the others played a tapped land
@@slimeproject2868 the cedh decks keep hands, that would be unplayable in a cedh pod
1:18:10- you said June of 2010, the screen said April 2005. Those are very different dates, brother.
as a new player, this is a godsend. Now I know how to recreate these unfun cards with legal combos. JK. subscribed!
I mean there is one reason.
It is a legendary creature (iona). I don't always draw my winter orb. But I will always have access to my Iona, and if I know I have access to it, then I can build a deck that will make sure I get it out as fast as possible and make sure it wont be countered.
I would say there is definitely good arguments for unbanning it. But I think you should have at least gotten into the fact that as your commander you have access to it no matter what. While I don't think that counts for Cedh, for casual I can see it being very suppresive to play against.
Really was stunlocked in the beginning wondering why you sounded like the WoW guy 😅
Coalition victory only needs 2 lands and a couple mana rocks now.
Gifts ungiven has been errata'd because its hidden ability that you dont have to choose 4 cards, and can instead just choose 2 and dump them directly into the graveyard.
Another argument to ban gifts is the prevalence of graveyard hate, same as Reoccurring Nightmare.
The issues with Leovold and Harbinger are two different reasons of the same outcome.
Leovold was immensely consistent to lock everyone out of the game.
Harbinger was completely accessible to anyone with blue, being blue and 2 colourless, and was just thrown in to every blue deck because its effect puts you into the driver seat every single time. Hell, it would've been run with leovold. The amount of extra cards in commander that come out of nowhere dont only get nullified, but turn into your advancement. It's not a -1, it's a -1 +1 gap double dipping success.
These both are troubling for competitive AND casual play, by the majority of players.
:)
A thing to note with Erayo...
Its flip does not say your turn. So it's even more consistent.
If this was not a legendary, it would be a blip on the radar, but not game ending this way. The consistency of being a commander was too much.
@@jamesthomas6984 Our cEDH group playtested Erayo, it's strong but not that amazing (and quite often bad for the owner of the Erayo). A flipped Erayo often protected an opponent's combo. The owner of the Erayo has usually expended a lot of resources to resolve and flip it, meaning they are less likely to have interaction up in hand. Meanwhile, someone following in turn order is still quite likely to be able to resolve something like a thoracle or breach combo through Erayo. The Erayo counters the first throwaway spell (which would have likely been something like a Grand Abolisher effect anyway) and then prevents the other two players from countering the combo.
orayo can play a rule of law effect, basicly counter the only spell you have each turn
I just got back into the game and I'm shocked any amount of my good cards are banned. I played Ravnica to Theros so it's weird.
Oh damn. Literally fell asleep to this video
I don't think it's fair to pair primeval titan with sylvan primordial. The former simply grabs you two tapped lands (it can grab more on attack trigger, but lets be honest, its most likely not living that long) that at best grabs you combo lands and massively telegraphs what you're planning. The latter removes up to three opponents permanents and grabs you that many lands, effectively +6 in card advantage. Its an extremely huge swing with few limitations on situational applicability that absolutely breaks the board in a very unfair and unfun way.
As a scummy Yarok main at heart, I think primetime could absolutely be unbanned and just be a powerful green staple, but sylvan primordial should absolutely stay banned.
Thassa’s Oracle isn’t played at casual tables ? That’s news to me… 😂 I guess players in my area did not get the memo.
It could be argued that a panoptic mirror victory is different from the non-banned combos will take a very long time to resolve and forcing everyone to just sit and wait for the caster to finish their single player gane so it's just a lot more tedious than playing/triggering them and saying gg
It's fine. You see Panoptic Mirror + Time Warp. Great - next game.
“This has led to green generally being considered the best color in the game”
*laughs in cEDH*
How has no one mentioned that the literal first card mentioned has the mana cost incorrectly noted
RC:"Coalition victory is too easy and dumb to be allowed to be legal"
Also RC:"Thassa's Oracle is a totally legit and fair card"
Golos is banned, but in the sidenotes on 49:56 says that the card is legal in Commander(?)
Exactly
3:35 sorcery spell speeds? 😆
Damn… i thought I’m the only one using commander podcast to fall asleep to..
I'm 4 months late but: Iona being banned was a result of it usually being unfun to play against on top of them unbanning Painter's Servant. banning her as commander would do nothing either because it's easier to tutor for her. any green/white deck would probably include that combo, and it's not really hard to Tooth and Nail Entwine as early as turn 4 or 5
That's competing with t1 Intuition LED Breach combos so the power level argument is somewhat weak. And since Tooth and Nail is still legal, it's competing against a multitude of other 2-creature combos which are far stronger since the individual pieces are very playable (eg. Dockside + Emiel)
Free Iona, I promise to only use her against mono blue counter players.
I think the most egregious thing about Library of Alexandria being banned is that Mishra's Workshop, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Timetwister are all legal, so clearly there's no issue with commander legal cards costing multiple thousands of dollars, and I would argue that all of them are, in their own ways, at least around, if not above, the power level of the Library
So you actually have no play history with library lol
None of the three cards you mentioned have an average power level higher than Library. Mishra's Workshop can be situationally stronger but only in a very limited set of artifact decks (and would still be subject to RNG whereas an opening hand Library will practically always draw 3+ cards). Timetwister is a great wheel but most competitive decks only want to run one copy of this effect and Wheel of Fortune is generally considered the stronger option since it enables the GY. Tabernacle is unplayable in 95% of decks - literally worse than any basic land.
22:30 With a STIFLE!
27:35 you wrote white
Intuition is worse, you get two into your hand, intuition requires you to have a recursion effect on top of it to get the other piece, or a flashback effect like you said. Having to pay mana to do more things to combo off matters, one isn’t it a big deal which is why I see why gifts is banned, intuition requires extra cards and for you to pay more mana.
Intuition tutors for Underworld Breach + Lion's Eye Diamond + Sevinne's Reclamation which is generally game over. This is one of the most common packages in cEDH decks where these effects are played. I doubt either would be regularly played at casual tables.