This is how stax works: Imagine each deck as a racecar; optimized and perfectly tuned to rush across the track in order to reach the finish before the rest. Stax covers the tracks with oil, caltrops, and potholes before driving a tractor.
I love you back. Props to Josh & Jimmy for having so many guests. It can be extra work coordinating a show with a new person but they are damn professionals.
Thank you guys for using your platform to support smaller MTG channels! I understand first-hand how hard it can be to build up an audience from scratch.
Let me brag on DJ really quick. I'm from the Houston Area and after Harvey he put up a video saying that he wanted to help someone who may have lost cards or lost their home or whatever else they lost. Our friend Norman from our shop lost his apartment and him and his wife and daughter had to move to a hotel for a long time. 10 or 15 of us messaged DJ about him helping Norman out and he sent him a Gahiji deck and a stuffed unicorn for his daughter. I know DJ may remember Norman and the whole crew from All Star. He really helped Norman out alot. DJ is a great guy. I'm glad he was on here.
Of course, I remember Norman! Your LGS was amazing; you were all looking out for someone who needed a hand. Magic players can be some of the best people. I really hope Norman and his family are doing well.
Jumbo Commander Norman is doing good. They were able to go back to their apartment once they owners fixed everything up. It was really cool to see his face light up when Brian gave him your package. It was awesome. And he still plays that deck. It's brutal.
Cards for control I tend to like are Wash Out, Evacuation, Aetherspouts, Mystic Confluence, and Austere Command, (aside from the obvious choices like wrath of god, supreme verdict, or cyclonic rift). Sphinx of the Final Word, and Nezahal, the Primal Tide are great threats/finishers. I'm yet to try out Hour of Revelation but it seems like it'd be pretty good in certain situations.
It was nice to have JumboCommander on the show. I often wind up being the group hug, support, or controller in our group. Part of my control strategy is to durdle and outlast everyone via life gain or protect effects. Approach of the Second Sun, Swords to Plowshares, Ghostly Prison are staples of course, but I love manipulating *other* people's life totals. Protect an ally from losing with a well timed Reverse the Sands to bring them back into fight to kill the other aggro / creature heavy deck is such a chaotic and fun control moment. :)
If this was the Avengers I would be Phil Coulson ... I finally meet my heroes and never get them to sign any cards for me ... then I get a spinoff that has loyal fans but isn't as successful as the real Avengers.
It's still only early April .... You still have time to cast Tefferi's Protection in response to a Cyclonic Rift which is certainly a year-topping-feeling
Nice to see the person behind the voice we always hear in his videos. :) I like that definition, too! More answers is always good. A friend of mine said my mono-green deck feels very blue and black, because it has so many answers. So you can really play control in every colour, it just takes creativity.
Man, makes me smile to see DJ on a big channel, he's always so kind and usually responds to tweets and comments on his videos. As far as control i love playing it mostly because I despise combo decks... although as far as beating control, i try to save a couple of great cards in my hand and use the lesser one to bait out a counter, then drop the better one and watch the player weep.
I read everything you guys write. I'm really happy you took the time to comment. There is a particular art when it comes to baiting out counterspells. I think it's fun because it relies pretty heavily on the person.
I'm not a control player but the combination of you two with Jumbo Commander made me create me first control deck. Great insight and my favorite non-game knights episode to date!!! Well done guys!
Play the pace of the game! These guys touched on it quite a bit but still, it's an important aspect of playing "reactive" control decks. I've won countless games by being the "last man standing" and saving my card advantage until then. In my Sen Triplets deck (which sees automatic hate regardless of board state now) the best thing is to be able to predict how the game is going to go and play my threats\answers accordingly. One of my favorite ways to do this is Telepathy, it sure does draw out a lot of hate but if I can play it on turn 1 I will every time. Being able to see everyone hands so early in the game really gives me an inkling as to who is gonna threaten my board state or answer me, and who is going to play the threats that I have to answer, and then I can order how to play, or not play my cards. Draw, land, pass is the best turn you can have! Love this podcast you guys rule!
You kinda touched upon it with putting a name on it. But one of the things I do when I am in the control position in a commander game, is to attempt to keep track of who is the "critical player". Basically, if you have limited ressources to control with, it becomes less about the specific cards and more about which player you can influence the most, either by trying to control their plays and board position with your answers, or by helping/supporting them in taking down the player who is the biggest threat. The last one is often really great to do if your deck in general lines up well against them. Let them do the hard work, and while you support them, you try to move your own board into a position where you can take over vs their deck over 1-2 turns.
Hadn't heard of your channel before DJ, but I checked it out yesterday. Wow. So glad you were able to make an appearance. Really enjoying your channel now!
I'm so happy to see you on an episide of The Command Zone DJ! I'm not a fan of control, but I had a lot of fun listening to the conversations between you, Josh, and Jimmy! I hope to see you on an episode of Game Knights!
I don't know if I missed it while listening to this, but I feel like one thing you didn't touch on was how to end the game as a control player. Playing a control deck often means you're somewhat arbitrarily slowing down what can already be a very long game, and if you don't have a quick win-con you're just not going to be that much fun to play with. And the harder kind of control your playing, the faster you want to be able to end the game. You can't lock your opponents out of the game while sitting there playing draw-go. I'm personally the more STAX kind of control player which has its own counter-strategies, but my advice in general for beating control decks would be: Make your deck threat-dense and try to find redundancies. Have ways to protect your stuff. Diversify your win-conditions. Try to avoid "hate" cards and silver bullets unless they already synergize with your deck. Ultimately, like Jumbo mentioned, you need to tailor your control/anti-control strategy to your meta, but try to avoid an arms race.
Maaan, as someone who loves control in standard and looking into getting into brawl/commander, I'm really glad to see Jumbo Commander guy in this episode. Much love to you all guys, I love you and the community,
The secret to beating control is actually as simple as the definition of control given at the start of the episode. It is a deck with more answers than questions. One way to win is just to pose more questions within a key window where they are unable to produce enough answers. Have a threat that can consistently get through or have versatile threats. Having a non creature threat can go a long ways because it forces them to take a break from attacking your creature base.
Things I think are great as a control player : Modular Cards, Commands, Charms, even Supreme will. Especially as someone who has Kess at the helm of his control deck, going "Cryptic Command, Counter something Draw." then on my turn "Cryptic Command..bounce draw" is beautiful.
As much as I dislike playing against a control deck, it does make me a better player and brings my game IQ up. Being a newer player I am often on the losing end, especially in my meta where guys have been playing for a LONG time. One of my favorite combo that had taken the control by surprise was the Mirage Mirror / Knowledge Pool. I learned it watching Jumbo Commander and that was a defining moment for me. First, none of those guys knew about it so there was an element of gained respect from it. Second, not only did it win the game but it did it when their stuff, not just taking control of creatures but casting their spells. Anyway great video you guys!!
I'm a hardcore control player and my pet card is Disallow. It's a counterspell you'll always be happy to have in your hand, especially if you have some sort of cost reduction on board (e.g. Baral or Jace's Sanctum). It's a hard counter that also hits triggered or activated abilities. That turns from a merely good card to run (Counterspell) into a fantastically versatile one.
Wow command zone and jumbo commander together? This is awesome! Also I had a feel good moment involving teferis protection myself recently. I target removed a commander and he used teferis protection then attacked another player and he used it too! I still lost but it felt like an achievement, getting it from 2 players in one turn
SO EXCITED about this collaboration. Two pillars of the commander community (well, three of you really) Here’s hoping DJ gets a Game Knights spot soon!
The discussion you guys were having made me think of a question. I don't know if this has been talked about before. But, in a 4-player game if you're going to make a play that makes you a "friend", at least for a while, which player is the best Target? The person who's turn is just before yours or just after yours or in between those two?
I read this comment a few days ago and didn't have a good answer but ... it haunted me. I got it now. If they are playing an aggressive deck then you want them right after you in turn order. They will refill the board before other players after wipes and get the first attacks in. They will also draw aggression away from you as other decks respond to the threat that just hit them. If your "friend" is a more controlling deck then you want them to be right before your turn. That way they use their resources to respond to the table and you can make better decisions based off of what they just did. Agree? Disagree?
First of all, thanks for the replies! Second of all, what the heck are we both doing up so late? Third of all, yes, your response makes a lot of sense. The whole thing gets me to thinking more about table position and how much of a factor it is in determining a game's winner.
More great advice for counter spells is giving each counter a job or reason, so you don’t blow yourself out. Of course it depends on hands and specific situations, but giving yourself a reason to play an answer helps so much. I usually give each one a main reason and a side reason. Muddle the mixture, for example, is usually a Tutor for me, but a back up counter spell if need be; if you have lots of creature removal, save your counters for non-creature spells; “defensive”or “offensive”, as I like to call them: are they to protect your spells/permanents or are they to prevent others from going off? Always think ahead and try to be aware of what your deck is doing rather than reacting in a “ooh, that can be scary” way.
In my last commander league game at my lgs i had a situation where i tapped out to play Sorin Grimm Nemesis and 2 out of 3 people left him alone that turn. which led me to keep him alive since i had supreme verdict, damnation, counterspell and render silent in hand. so the points you made around the 56:00 mark make alot of sense as to how bad my tapping out to play him was. i did manage to ult him and get 54 1/1 vampires though and win the game which was sweet
I love vexing shusher so much. I play it in my saski, and the glares I get from some people when I play it and the realize I can shut off their counterspells is so great.
Any threat you play gives you advantage NOW: Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are amazing, they hold equipment very well. Garza is a really underrated card.
Jumbo NEEDS to be a frequent special guest for the Command Zone! He's a great addition to the regular team of @jfwong and @JoshLeeKwai GREAT WORK Jumbo!!! :)
Came here for help because I'm building control for the first time, it's a format that I've always hated because on the other side of it, sitting in top deck mode unable to do anything isn't fun. (Here's my reasoning: If you encounter mass creatures, it doesn't take much to add a couple board wipes. Against big creatures, a few targeted removal etc. The only way to deal with control is to completely revamp your deck for that 'lower mana curve' or to make your deck a control deck.) After a decade of avoiding it, I figured I'll give it a shot. Using Oloro, have omnicience and academy rector, rhystic study, necropotence, 8 counters, 4 board wipes, 7 planewalkers (ugin, karn liberated, elspeth, Teferi, Tamiyo, Jace tMS), contagion engine, 37 land, 9 ramp, Jin-gitaxis, memnarch, consecrated sphinx and other goodies. I have the feeling that my deck is more of what the video says is 'good stuff' rather than a focused plan. I'm hoping to get feedback, I know the video is old.
Countering the tutor can be correct. Even if you kill/counter that hermit druid/rhystic study etc it can then go to an accessible zone, the graveyard. Like you said, it's a spectrum and you have to learn what the right call is based on your answers and what you're up against.
The mentions of Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation made me really excited to pull off some historic control shenanigans with Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage. I'll call the deck Flashpoint.
I'm really the only player who plays control in my group, and only a couple of decks that are built for it. Sidisi, undead vizier and oddly Nekusar. My Nekusar build is oddball (not super combo oriented), but the meta is so creature focused that I don't care about putting cards into my opponents hands, because I am packing a ton of board wipes. Sidisi is more traditional mono-black control, and the wincon is usually Phage the untouchable (Phage isn't a good commander, but I applied some Josh logic and found a way to make it work).
i play a kess taking turns control deck, i really like the modal spells like k command and cryptic, the main strategy is play lots of boardwipes and maybe a planeswalker like bolas or ugin, establish some semblance of control then drop something like a metallurgic summoning or a docent of perfection or even young pyro and then start slamming time walks which are particularly good with kess obviously
As a sometimes control player. I wait for a large casting cost spell, X spells are best and counter them with Draining Whelk and then use the whelk to win the game. For best results play with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight on the battlefield. I used this combo the other day and got a 41/41 whelk that did 82 points of damage.
My friend decided that he loves to play a controlling Kruphix deck and so in response to that it built a very aggro Gruul deck with Xenagos to make my early creatures much more dangerous making him worry about 3-4-5 drop creatures and at the same time playing into every counter spell, when he threatens a counter or a cyclonic rift I never change my mind because if I don't than he gets away while holding the card still. One of the things that i always make sure to do when he does start having 7 mana to overload I always attack and cast during my second main phase in case I need to rebuild. Also avoiding the cast trigger is also a good dodge, things that let you place creatures, or to reveal, like lurking predators, all seem ways to null their decks power. A huge bane that i have found is like Jimmy said was ways to make them off balance and mess up timing. The importance of timing really seems like a make or break so Vornclex ruins timing for most every deck. Overall, I never play around control i just play through it to make it very hard to counter enough of my things and the others in my meta acknowledge that i do eat a vast majority of the spells so they tend not to crack back when they have the chance. My meta has 2 blue control decks out of 5 players and an Orzhov control as well. Since there are so may control I do a Craig and just junkyard dog on the first person to counter my spells and the other control decks use their counters to protect my spells because they know they need my favor to not die.
I’m around 7 minutes into the video and this peaks my interest, I haven’t created my first commander as I started about 2 months ago. I just want to ask if I was to try to make a control deck would Nicol Bolas or The Scarab god work for this type of play style?
Simic or Sultai are best for Control. You get recursion in Green and Tutors in Black. You need the Green for sure to have ways of consistently getting your spells back.
Andrew Woodford red and blue are better at getting them back. Kess? And cards of her ilk? Umm Grixis is a hard control shell and certainly works at it.
Depends on the commander which color is best. Nicol Bolas would be fine, Grixis has good control cards in its colors. I'm not much of a control player, but my favorite commander for control is Sen Triplets.
Evolutionary Leap and Birthing Pod are my favourite ways to try and fight control when they dip in resources, especially good if you can t2 the leap. Pod makes it hard for control to win when they don't have another artifact answer.
My first commander control deck was built not too long ago, and it has the highest win percentage of all my deks. It's Rashmi Eternities Crafter. Last time I played it at a shop, I won the game and only dealt two damage the whole game. I made the other control player hold back his counter cause I tutored up Newlamog, and just held him in my hand for several turns, getting other threats and powerful spells like seasons past, which is amazing in a control deck, and Vorinclex out. Then I had way more than enough mana to cast ulamog+my own counters, and the other players scooped when I resolved ulamog. Rashmi if you can resolve her and protect her with bots or greaves is a workhorse of a commander. The blue side of the deck wants to be reactive anyways, she rewards that by letting you ramp into your mana and your big plays while also giving you card advantage for things a control deck wants to do anyways. Big spells become free additional cards, small spells become cantrips, it wonderful. Even sweeter is the fact that the deck can function as a budget deck. I've added a few spendy cards to the deck, but at its core, the cards that make her work are pretty cheap.
WAIT! JIMMY! We just watched “John died at the end” for Friday the 13th. I never realized you were in it until now!???? You’re Fred in the movie right???
6:54 "In this format, there's less aggro. I'm sorry: there's (some) red decks." 7:00 "In our format, aggro's not that great." 7:39 "(I) actually believe that control decks are the hardest types of decks to play." Even though they are contradicting themselves, it's implied that aggro is actually the hardest type of deck to play EDH, and it's usually more difficult than playing control. I could easily teach a new player how to play a Talrand Sky Summoner, counterspell deck, but winning with a Krenko, Mob Boss, token swarm deck requires a higher level of skill, both in terms of building the deck and actually winning with it. I can murder an entire group of people with my Uril, the Miststalker voltron deck, but I suffered many failures before that deck was properly tuned and I could actually win with it. By contrast, my very first deck was the 2014, mono-blue, precon deck, and it actually became formidable after I tuned it a little bit. The deck wasn't well-built: it pretty much had no synergy whatsoever. I would just stall with counterspells and removal until I could play my own big spells. The reason that particular deck was successful is because blue is a strong color, not because I was a good player or deck builder: in fact, mono-blue control is a great deck type for beginners to learn and win with. Mono-red is not for beginners, and I make sure to show respect to anyone who smashes me with a Boros deck, since it's not easy to build one that wins. That being said, I realize that some control decks do require a greater degree of skill to build and play: Daretti, Scrap Savant, mono-red stax comes to mind, but in general, it isn't hard to build a Baral, Chief of Compliance deck and counter your opponents' spells until you win. In other words, playing control is really as difficult or as easy as you want it to be. Building a competent aggro deck and winning with it is much harder: the average aggro player never recovers or takes too long to recover from a board wipe, and usually the entire table teams up to take them down.
Hi, I'm a control player in a combo meta. There are a couple slightly weird things I do to get my win percentage up. 1) I use the graveyard as a toolbox. This is a simply one because you just want to get as much value out of your cards as possible. Just like how a board wipe should try to hit multiple creatures for value, every card in a control deck should try to get extra value either as delve fuel, a reanimation target, or something to flashback. 2) Bounce spells are more useful than you'd expect. Using a 2 mana Cyclonic Rift as a kill spell in response to a Wheel is extremely effective. A new pet card for me is Winds of Rebuke. You like your tutors? Well better hope I don't just mill your Vamp tutor target with Winds of Rebuke. This is particularly effective against the non-black tutors in that cycle since they have to reveal the tutor target. Also, as an important thing, this really applies more to competitive metas and control decks that use wheel and mill effects. Bounce spells are mostly there to stop combo decks, in particular Dramatic Scepter and Doomsday combo decks. 3) I remember my opponents' reveled cards and board states. Seems obvious, but a lot of player play casually and joke around a lot while playing. They miss things. Opponent cast Worldly Tutor, make sure they reveal it to the table. Helps you make informed decisions and calling out a tutor draws attention away from you. Also, if you're using graveyards like me, it helps to remember instead of checking the graveyard every few minutes. If you stop checking, your opponent will forget you checked and get blown out later. I've caught plenty of people off guard by reanimating Rec Sage out of opponents graveyards of Scarab God resulting in blowing up a combo piece or lethal aura off a voltron commander. 4) I don't force a greedy play. I let it happen or slowly sculpt the ideal situation. Control players get to give themselves time for greedy plays, but don't force it. Wait to act. If you want to cast Notion Thief at end step and Windfall on your turn, that's fine. Just make sure the coast is clear. Assume your opponents have interaction. Try to get your opponents low on cards before going for the greed, especially if the card is a long term lock piece or value engine like Sheoldred or Jin-Gitaxias.
Most of my decks have controlling aspects to them... Always 4 board wipes... all my decks have removal for various issues... mostly creatures tho :/ In fact i only have 1 deck that has a singular game plan and that if it pulls it off it wins... But I don't have a single dedicated control deck... i may think about making one tho... what are good commanders for control decks? i was thinking the best color palate would be Esper for control... maybe Sen triplets...
I've found a lot of success playing control. Particularly with The Locust God. It might just be due to our playgroup, but having a bunch of small blockers out usually lets me sit back and just chumpblock anything.
This is my control deck. It mainly plays a voltron subtheme to put a clock on my opponent when i lock down the board. Cards like umezawas jitte and sword of fire and ice really help pick off threats while also speeding up the clock on my opponents. Resolving an armegeddon/sunder/winter orb typically puts the deck in a well enoughy position where my opponents dont have the chance to rebuild in time to not die. Its alot of fun to pilot and its been a steady work of my entire magic career. Enjoy folks. tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ojutai-controlvoltron/ PS this list actually won me a commander tournament.
My experience with control in a nutshell: Control friend: yo you can cast Gishath now Me: Damn dude its dino time now *casts commander* Control player: Distainful nope Me: oh
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Came to the comment section for some control cards and all I found was love.
Your channel is really fantastic. Love your spotlight videos and deck techs and so happy you got this chance to feature on another channel.
Looking forward to whenever you get to play on game knights. Bring the pain Dj...bring the pain.
Your channel is my favorite for MTG content. I like your format and the good quality of your video's.
DJ: you rock!
I love your channel and so does my play group. Love from the uk! Also love how you try to interact with your audience in the comments
This is how stax works:
Imagine each deck as a racecar; optimized and perfectly tuned to rush across the track in order to reach the finish before the rest.
Stax covers the tracks with oil, caltrops, and potholes before driving a tractor.
I love Jumbo commander! Glad to see more people being brought onto the show recently
Would love to see him in a game knights episode!
Yes!
I love you back. Props to Josh & Jimmy for having so many guests. It can be extra work coordinating a show with a new person but they are damn professionals.
Thank you guys for using your platform to support smaller MTG channels! I understand first-hand how hard it can be to build up an audience from scratch.
Just checked out your channel nice work dude
Let me brag on DJ really quick. I'm from the Houston Area and after Harvey he put up a video saying that he wanted to help someone who may have lost cards or lost their home or whatever else they lost. Our friend Norman from our shop lost his apartment and him and his wife and daughter had to move to a hotel for a long time. 10 or 15 of us messaged DJ about him helping Norman out and he sent him a Gahiji deck and a stuffed unicorn for his daughter. I know DJ may remember Norman and the whole crew from All Star. He really helped Norman out alot. DJ is a great guy. I'm glad he was on here.
Of course, I remember Norman! Your LGS was amazing; you were all looking out for someone who needed a hand. Magic players can be some of the best people. I really hope Norman and his family are doing well.
Jumbo Commander Norman is doing good. They were able to go back to their apartment once they owners fixed everything up. It was really cool to see his face light up when Brian gave him your package. It was awesome. And he still plays that deck. It's brutal.
That's awesome to hear. Give my best to your whole playgroup!
*Sniff* *Sniff* It's enough to make a grown man cry
I just finished listening to Jumbo Commander and look here’s the Command Zone! Perfect timing!
Resolves! My favorite commander channel. Glad to see him get some love.
I loooooove Jumbo Commander!! I'm so happy to see DJ on this episode! Man, I hope he'll be on a Game Knights soon!
San Lu he totally could have phoned in for a podcast...wonder why they needed him on set?
Hmmm...suspicious..very suspicious indeed...
Sooooooooooo.... DJ on Game Knights? Yes?
Aiden Noir yes please.
YES. Jumbo commander is one of my favorite MTG content producers! Thank you for hosting him!
DJ FINALLY GETTING BIG AND RECOGNIZED. keep up the good work my man I love all three of ya!
Yes! My two favourite MtG channels in the same video!
Same here! This made me so happy!
Same :D
Congrats Jumbo way to go!!!
Thanks, as soon as Josh saw me play Vedalken Orrery he knew he had found a kindred spirit ... a guest spot on his show was almost inevitable.
So glad Jumbo is here! Genuinely one of my favourite guests possible :)
Cards for control I tend to like are Wash Out, Evacuation, Aetherspouts, Mystic Confluence, and Austere Command, (aside from the obvious choices like wrath of god, supreme verdict, or cyclonic rift). Sphinx of the Final Word, and Nezahal, the Primal Tide are great threats/finishers. I'm yet to try out Hour of Revelation but it seems like it'd be pretty good in certain situations.
It was nice to have JumboCommander on the show. I often wind up being the group hug, support, or controller in our group. Part of my control strategy is to durdle and outlast everyone via life gain or protect effects. Approach of the Second Sun, Swords to Plowshares, Ghostly Prison are staples of course, but I love manipulating *other* people's life totals. Protect an ally from losing with a well timed Reverse the Sands to bring them back into fight to kill the other aggro / creature heavy deck is such a chaotic and fun control moment. :)
Heck yea, Jumbo finally is on the command zone. Best day ever
I had that exact same thought.
Right?! That was my thought too! This made me so happy!
What is this the Avengers for Commander/EDH?
If this was the Avengers I would be Phil Coulson ... I finally meet my heroes and never get them to sign any cards for me ... then I get a spinoff that has loyal fans but isn't as successful as the real Avengers.
Your origin story for your channel name is better than most Super Heroes. All the best, keep up the great content!
Omg Jumbo is the best Channel
Hi Jens. I appreciate that
Jumbo Commander Personal reply made my year thank you ^-^
It's still only early April .... You still have time to cast Tefferi's Protection in response to a Cyclonic Rift which is certainly a year-topping-feeling
YAY!!!! Jumbo Commander!! I love your channel bro
Thanks for the love BUT more importantly thanks for going to an LGS that helps new commander players. You are making our format better. You rock
Nice to see the person behind the voice we always hear in his videos. :)
I like that definition, too! More answers is always good. A friend of mine said my mono-green deck feels very blue and black, because it has so many answers. So you can really play control in every colour, it just takes creativity.
DJ needs to be on the podcast more often....great episode!🤯
4:00 video starts
Jumbo was the one who inspired me to start my own magic channel, good to see him on here
Krenko is a great place to start! Keep it going!
Man, makes me smile to see DJ on a big channel, he's always so kind and usually responds to tweets and comments on his videos. As far as control i love playing it mostly because I despise combo decks... although as far as beating control, i try to save a couple of great cards in my hand and use the lesser one to bait out a counter, then drop the better one and watch the player weep.
I read everything you guys write. I'm really happy you took the time to comment.
There is a particular art when it comes to baiting out counterspells. I think it's fun because it relies pretty heavily on the person.
Eclipse sleeves come in 100 packs now? Maybe I will finally get some because who needs 80 sleeves..?
Probably anyone who plays anything other than EDH
Yaknow 60 card deck + side board
I can confidently say that it is someone with 4 more packs of eclipse sleeves and 4 commander decks!
I bought two packs of 80 so that I would have 100 to sleeve up a commander deck and then 60 leftover to use for draft.
I'm not a control player but the combination of you two with Jumbo Commander made me create me first control deck. Great insight and my favorite non-game knights episode to date!!!
Well done guys!
I've been a huge fan of Jumbo Commander for a while now! It's great to see him on the show!
Play the pace of the game! These guys touched on it quite a bit but still, it's an important aspect of playing "reactive" control decks. I've won countless games by being the "last man standing" and saving my card advantage until then. In my Sen Triplets deck (which sees automatic hate regardless of board state now) the best thing is to be able to predict how the game is going to go and play my threats\answers accordingly. One of my favorite ways to do this is Telepathy, it sure does draw out a lot of hate but if I can play it on turn 1 I will every time. Being able to see everyone hands so early in the game really gives me an inkling as to who is gonna threaten my board state or answer me, and who is going to play the threats that I have to answer, and then I can order how to play, or not play my cards. Draw, land, pass is the best turn you can have! Love this podcast you guys rule!
You kinda touched upon it with putting a name on it. But one of the things I do when I am in the control position in a commander game, is to attempt to keep track of who is the "critical player". Basically, if you have limited ressources to control with, it becomes less about the specific cards and more about which player you can influence the most, either by trying to control their plays and board position with your answers, or by helping/supporting them in taking down the player who is the biggest threat. The last one is often really great to do if your deck in general lines up well against them. Let them do the hard work, and while you support them, you try to move your own board into a position where you can take over vs their deck over 1-2 turns.
Hadn't heard of your channel before DJ, but I checked it out yesterday. Wow. So glad you were able to make an appearance. Really enjoying your channel now!
Glad to have you! It's always great to have more commander in your TH-cam queue.
Awesome Episode... This has way more applications than just control. It is worth watching multiple times
Agreed. Just throw this episode on repeat. Let the sounds of us butchering Oasis lull you to sleep.
2:40 the video starts
No it doesn’t
It starts at 0:00
What is this? A crossover episode!
I'm so happy to see you on an episide of The Command Zone DJ! I'm not a fan of control, but I had a lot of fun listening to the conversations between you, Josh, and Jimmy!
I hope to see you on an episode of Game Knights!
Jumbo - “Don’t fight over the tutor, counter the thing they tutor for”
Opponent casts Intuition and the table loses instantly...
I don't know if I missed it while listening to this, but I feel like one thing you didn't touch on was how to end the game as a control player. Playing a control deck often means you're somewhat arbitrarily slowing down what can already be a very long game, and if you don't have a quick win-con you're just not going to be that much fun to play with. And the harder kind of control your playing, the faster you want to be able to end the game. You can't lock your opponents out of the game while sitting there playing draw-go.
I'm personally the more STAX kind of control player which has its own counter-strategies, but my advice in general for beating control decks would be: Make your deck threat-dense and try to find redundancies. Have ways to protect your stuff. Diversify your win-conditions. Try to avoid "hate" cards and silver bullets unless they already synergize with your deck.
Ultimately, like Jumbo mentioned, you need to tailor your control/anti-control strategy to your meta, but try to avoid an arms race.
Great to see Jumbo Commander on your show. The video was like watching both my favorite commander channels at once.
Maaan, as someone who loves control in standard and looking into getting into brawl/commander, I'm really glad to see Jumbo Commander guy in this episode. Much love to you all guys, I love you and the community,
My two favorite EDH channels combine. This made my day!
My two favorite channels at the same time. You guys rock
I'm unsure what I love more: Jumbo Commander or control decks. Either way, I love it!
If you are unsure, may I suggest that you love me more than control decks ... just ... you know, a thought
I'm a simple man. I see a video by the command zone with Jumbo commander discussing how to play control in commander and I click on it.
DoubleHelixGamer, how many of those are there in existence?
Edgar S.H. at least 1
Dallas Chaffin for every alternate universe in existence.
"s i m p l e m a n"
jumbo commander is all the community ever needed! ..(after you guys of course) =D
Great chemistry with jumbo commander, love this episode!
The secret to beating control is actually as simple as the definition of control given at the start of the episode. It is a deck with more answers than questions. One way to win is just to pose more questions within a key window where they are unable to produce enough answers. Have a threat that can consistently get through or have versatile threats. Having a non creature threat can go a long ways because it forces them to take a break from attacking your creature base.
Things I think are great as a control player : Modular Cards, Commands, Charms, even Supreme will. Especially as someone who has Kess at the helm of his control deck, going "Cryptic Command, Counter something Draw." then on my turn "Cryptic Command..bounce draw" is beautiful.
Insta clicked just for DJ, I love your deck techs man! You've shown me a lot of awesome new cards that I would never have noticed before!
How flattering. I'm always looking for those weird cards they give your commander deck so much flavor.
As much as I dislike playing against a control deck, it does make me a better player and brings my game IQ up. Being a newer player I am often on the losing end, especially in my meta where guys have been playing for a LONG time. One of my favorite combo that had taken the control by surprise was the Mirage Mirror / Knowledge Pool. I learned it watching Jumbo Commander and that was a defining moment for me. First, none of those guys knew about it so there was an element of gained respect from it. Second, not only did it win the game but it did it when their stuff, not just taking control of creatures but casting their spells. Anyway great video you guys!!
I'm a hardcore control player and my pet card is Disallow. It's a counterspell you'll always be happy to have in your hand, especially if you have some sort of cost reduction on board (e.g. Baral or Jace's Sanctum). It's a hard counter that also hits triggered or activated abilities. That turns from a merely good card to run (Counterspell) into a fantastically versatile one.
Wow command zone and jumbo commander together? This is awesome! Also I had a feel good moment involving teferis protection myself recently. I target removed a commander and he used teferis protection then attacked another player and he used it too! I still lost but it felt like an achievement, getting it from 2 players in one turn
"The commander keeps coming back". Makes me remind of the time when Hinder was putting the commanders to the bottom of their owner's library xD
SO EXCITED about this collaboration. Two pillars of the commander community (well, three of you really) Here’s hoping DJ gets a Game Knights spot soon!
The discussion you guys were having made me think of a question. I don't know if this has been talked about before. But, in a 4-player game if you're going to make a play that makes you a "friend", at least for a while, which player is the best Target? The person who's turn is just before yours or just after yours or in between those two?
I read this comment a few days ago and didn't have a good answer but ... it haunted me. I got it now. If they are playing an aggressive deck then you want them right after you in turn order. They will refill the board before other players after wipes and get the first attacks in. They will also draw aggression away from you as other decks respond to the threat that just hit them.
If your "friend" is a more controlling deck then you want them to be right before your turn. That way they use their resources to respond to the table and you can make better decisions based off of what they just did. Agree? Disagree?
First of all, thanks for the replies! Second of all, what the heck are we both doing up so late? Third of all, yes, your response makes a lot of sense. The whole thing gets me to thinking more about table position and how much of a factor it is in determining a game's winner.
Omg Jumbo is here!!!
More great advice for counter spells is giving each counter a job or reason, so you don’t blow yourself out. Of course it depends on hands and specific situations, but giving yourself a reason to play an answer helps so much. I usually give each one a main reason and a side reason. Muddle the mixture, for example, is usually a Tutor for me, but a back up counter spell if need be; if you have lots of creature removal, save your counters for non-creature spells; “defensive”or “offensive”, as I like to call them: are they to protect your spells/permanents or are they to prevent others from going off? Always think ahead and try to be aware of what your deck is doing rather than reacting in a “ooh, that can be scary” way.
I find myself taking notes= primo Command Zone- I love Jumbo Commander, DJ has some awesome insights.
YES YES YES YES!!!!! My 2 favorite Commander channels in a podcast collab!? GAME KNIGHTS!
I looooooove jumbo commander!!! Loved the episode too and so happy he came on the show.
I feel the love ... it feels goooooood
Love jumbo commander. Grate video. Good topic. Good guest. And you got to play both agro and control to keep your mind balanced. :)
Thanks for the love and the advice. I totally agree. Playing an opposing deck really gives you a feel for what is important and what isn't.
In my last commander league game at my lgs i had a situation where i tapped out to play Sorin Grimm Nemesis and 2 out of 3 people left him alone that turn. which led me to keep him alive since i had supreme verdict, damnation, counterspell and render silent in hand. so the points you made around the 56:00 mark make alot of sense as to how bad my tapping out to play him was. i did manage to ult him and get 54 1/1 vampires though and win the game which was sweet
Well deserved guest! This guy is going places
i love listening to these tips because im trying to refine my "Zur the enchanter" control deck
I love vexing shusher so much. I play it in my saski, and the glares I get from some people when I play it and the realize I can shut off their counterspells is so great.
Jumbo Commander is Great peoples
Back in the day we called it "Mother-May-I?" since everything the opponents do becomes that question, if done right.
Nice! So happy to see Jumbo on here.
Great video guys, absolutely love your funny and detailed discussions!
Any threat you play gives you advantage NOW: Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage are amazing, they hold equipment very well. Garza is a really underrated card.
Literally my three favorite Commander TH-camrs.
don't forget Wedge and Mudstah
"Hey gang, and welcome back!"
Jumbo NEEDS to be a frequent special guest for the Command Zone! He's a great addition to the regular team of @jfwong and @JoshLeeKwai GREAT WORK Jumbo!!! :)
Thank you. This was so much fun. Hopefully, people like the episode and they will want more.
My ABSOLUTE favourite three card play in my Zedruu the greathearted deck is Perplexing Chimera, Eidolon of Rhetoric and Homeward Path!
Came here for help because I'm building control for the first time, it's a format that I've always hated because on the other side of it, sitting in top deck mode unable to do anything isn't fun. (Here's my reasoning: If you encounter mass creatures, it doesn't take much to add a couple board wipes. Against big creatures, a few targeted removal etc. The only way to deal with control is to completely revamp your deck for that 'lower mana curve' or to make your deck a control deck.)
After a decade of avoiding it, I figured I'll give it a shot. Using Oloro, have omnicience and academy rector, rhystic study, necropotence, 8 counters, 4 board wipes, 7 planewalkers (ugin, karn liberated, elspeth, Teferi, Tamiyo, Jace tMS), contagion engine, 37 land, 9 ramp, Jin-gitaxis, memnarch, consecrated sphinx and other goodies.
I have the feeling that my deck is more of what the video says is 'good stuff' rather than a focused plan. I'm hoping to get feedback, I know the video is old.
Countering the tutor can be correct. Even if you kill/counter that hermit druid/rhystic study etc it can then go to an accessible zone, the graveyard. Like you said, it's a spectrum and you have to learn what the right call is based on your answers and what you're up against.
The mentions of Vedalken Orrery and Leyline of Anticipation made me really excited to pull off some historic control shenanigans with Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage.
I'll call the deck Flashpoint.
DJ, you have skills. The things you say are so well thought out.
Thank you ... to be fair I do spend an embarrassingly large amount of time thinking about magic.
Quite interesting discussion over control decks, DJ is the best ^^
I'm really the only player who plays control in my group, and only a couple of decks that are built for it. Sidisi, undead vizier and oddly Nekusar. My Nekusar build is oddball (not super combo oriented), but the meta is so creature focused that I don't care about putting cards into my opponents hands, because I am packing a ton of board wipes. Sidisi is more traditional mono-black control, and the wincon is usually Phage the untouchable (Phage isn't a good commander, but I applied some Josh logic and found a way to make it work).
La mejor cancion de presentacion de command zone ever!!!!!!!!!!!!! Que manera de ponerle emocion
i play a kess taking turns control deck, i really like the modal spells like k command and cryptic, the main strategy is play lots of boardwipes and maybe a planeswalker like bolas or ugin, establish some semblance of control then drop something like a metallurgic summoning or a docent of perfection or even young pyro and then start slamming time walks which are particularly good with kess obviously
My two favorite channels together at last! Hope to see a Game Knights episode with Jumbo soon!
Hey you guys did put my box in the set. Saw it sitting behind Josh's head back there
Yay! The most soothing voice in Commander!
I know you are referencing my singing voice which is like a choir of computers all auto-tunning wind chimes.
DJ!!!
Looking good on camera!
As a longtime scumbag control player, this episode is 👌👌👌
Keep up the great work Josh, Jimmy, and DJ!
As a sometimes control player. I wait for a large casting cost spell, X spells are best and counter them with Draining Whelk and then use the whelk to win the game. For best results play with Gisela, Blade of Goldnight on the battlefield. I used this combo the other day and got a 41/41 whelk that did 82 points of damage.
My friend decided that he loves to play a controlling Kruphix deck and so in response to that it built a very aggro Gruul deck with Xenagos to make my early creatures much more dangerous making him worry about 3-4-5 drop creatures and at the same time playing into every counter spell, when he threatens a counter or a cyclonic rift I never change my mind because if I don't than he gets away while holding the card still. One of the things that i always make sure to do when he does start having 7 mana to overload I always attack and cast during my second main phase in case I need to rebuild. Also avoiding the cast trigger is also a good dodge, things that let you place creatures, or to reveal, like lurking predators, all seem ways to null their decks power. A huge bane that i have found is like Jimmy said was ways to make them off balance and mess up timing. The importance of timing really seems like a make or break so Vornclex ruins timing for most every deck. Overall, I never play around control i just play through it to make it very hard to counter enough of my things and the others in my meta acknowledge that i do eat a vast majority of the spells so they tend not to crack back when they have the chance. My meta has 2 blue control decks out of 5 players and an Orzhov control as well. Since there are so may control I do a Craig and just junkyard dog on the first person to counter my spells and the other control decks use their counters to protect my spells because they know they need my favor to not die.
I’m around 7 minutes into the video and this peaks my interest, I haven’t created my first commander as I started about 2 months ago. I just want to ask if I was to try to make a control deck would Nicol Bolas or The Scarab god work for this type of play style?
Esper is best for control. :)
Simic or Sultai are best for Control. You get recursion in Green and Tutors in Black. You need the Green for sure to have ways of consistently getting your spells back.
Andrew Woodford red and blue are better at getting them back. Kess? And cards of her ilk? Umm Grixis is a hard control shell and certainly works at it.
Those would be awesome commanders if you were going to build one of the proactive control decks they were talking about.
Depends on the commander which color is best. Nicol Bolas would be fine, Grixis has good control cards in its colors. I'm not much of a control player, but my favorite commander for control is Sen Triplets.
Evolutionary Leap and Birthing Pod are my favourite ways to try and fight control when they dip in resources, especially good if you can t2 the leap. Pod makes it hard for control to win when they don't have another artifact answer.
My first commander control deck was built not too long ago, and it has the highest win percentage of all my deks. It's Rashmi Eternities Crafter. Last time I played it at a shop, I won the game and only dealt two damage the whole game. I made the other control player hold back his counter cause I tutored up Newlamog, and just held him in my hand for several turns, getting other threats and powerful spells like seasons past, which is amazing in a control deck, and Vorinclex out. Then I had way more than enough mana to cast ulamog+my own counters, and the other players scooped when I resolved ulamog.
Rashmi if you can resolve her and protect her with bots or greaves is a workhorse of a commander. The blue side of the deck wants to be reactive anyways, she rewards that by letting you ramp into your mana and your big plays while also giving you card advantage for things a control deck wants to do anyways. Big spells become free additional cards, small spells become cantrips, it wonderful. Even sweeter is the fact that the deck can function as a budget deck. I've added a few spendy cards to the deck, but at its core, the cards that make her work are pretty cheap.
WAIT! JIMMY! We just watched “John died at the end” for Friday the 13th. I never realized you were in it until now!???? You’re Fred in the movie right???
Get Dev from SBMtG for GameKnights!
6:54 "In this format, there's less aggro. I'm sorry: there's (some) red decks."
7:00 "In our format, aggro's not that great."
7:39 "(I) actually believe that control decks are the hardest types of decks to play."
Even though they are contradicting themselves, it's implied that aggro is actually the hardest type of deck to play EDH, and it's usually more difficult than playing control.
I could easily teach a new player how to play a Talrand Sky Summoner, counterspell deck, but winning with a Krenko, Mob Boss, token swarm deck requires a higher level of skill, both in terms of building the deck and actually winning with it.
I can murder an entire group of people with my Uril, the Miststalker voltron deck, but I suffered many failures before that deck was properly tuned and I could actually win with it.
By contrast, my very first deck was the 2014, mono-blue, precon deck, and it actually became formidable after I tuned it a little bit. The deck wasn't well-built: it pretty much had no synergy whatsoever. I would just stall with counterspells and removal until I could play my own big spells.
The reason that particular deck was successful is because blue is a strong color, not because I was a good player or deck builder: in fact, mono-blue control is a great deck type for beginners to learn and win with.
Mono-red is not for beginners, and I make sure to show respect to anyone who smashes me with a Boros deck, since it's not easy to build one that wins.
That being said, I realize that some control decks do require a greater degree of skill to build and play: Daretti, Scrap Savant, mono-red stax comes to mind, but in general, it isn't hard to build a Baral, Chief of Compliance deck and counter your opponents' spells until you win.
In other words, playing control is really as difficult or as easy as you want it to be. Building a competent aggro deck and winning with it is much harder: the average aggro player never recovers or takes too long to recover from a board wipe, and usually the entire table teams up to take them down.
Hi, I'm a control player in a combo meta. There are a couple slightly weird things I do to get my win percentage up.
1) I use the graveyard as a toolbox. This is a simply one because you just want to get as much value out of your cards as possible. Just like how a board wipe should try to hit multiple creatures for value, every card in a control deck should try to get extra value either as delve fuel, a reanimation target, or something to flashback.
2) Bounce spells are more useful than you'd expect. Using a 2 mana Cyclonic Rift as a kill spell in response to a Wheel is extremely effective. A new pet card for me is Winds of Rebuke. You like your tutors? Well better hope I don't just mill your Vamp tutor target with Winds of Rebuke. This is particularly effective against the non-black tutors in that cycle since they have to reveal the tutor target. Also, as an important thing, this really applies more to competitive metas and control decks that use wheel and mill effects. Bounce spells are mostly there to stop combo decks, in particular Dramatic Scepter and Doomsday combo decks.
3) I remember my opponents' reveled cards and board states. Seems obvious, but a lot of player play casually and joke around a lot while playing. They miss things. Opponent cast Worldly Tutor, make sure they reveal it to the table. Helps you make informed decisions and calling out a tutor draws attention away from you. Also, if you're using graveyards like me, it helps to remember instead of checking the graveyard every few minutes. If you stop checking, your opponent will forget you checked and get blown out later. I've caught plenty of people off guard by reanimating Rec Sage out of opponents graveyards of Scarab God resulting in blowing up a combo piece or lethal aura off a voltron commander.
4) I don't force a greedy play. I let it happen or slowly sculpt the ideal situation. Control players get to give themselves time for greedy plays, but don't force it. Wait to act. If you want to cast Notion Thief at end step and Windfall on your turn, that's fine. Just make sure the coast is clear. Assume your opponents have interaction. Try to get your opponents low on cards before going for the greed, especially if the card is a long term lock piece or value engine like Sheoldred or Jin-Gitaxias.
Most of my decks have controlling aspects to them... Always 4 board wipes... all my decks have removal for various issues... mostly creatures tho :/
In fact i only have 1 deck that has a singular game plan and that if it pulls it off it wins...
But I don't have a single dedicated control deck... i may think about making one tho... what are good commanders for control decks? i was thinking the best color palate would be Esper for control... maybe Sen triplets...
I've found a lot of success playing control. Particularly with The Locust God. It might just be due to our playgroup, but having a bunch of small blockers out usually lets me sit back and just chumpblock anything.
This is my control deck. It mainly plays a voltron subtheme to put a clock on my opponent when i lock down the board. Cards like umezawas jitte and sword of fire and ice really help pick off threats while also speeding up the clock on my opponents. Resolving an armegeddon/sunder/winter orb typically puts the deck in a well enoughy position where my opponents dont have the chance to rebuild in time to not die. Its alot of fun to pilot and its been a steady work of my entire magic career. Enjoy folks. tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ojutai-controlvoltron/
PS this list actually won me a commander tournament.
Enjoy both your channels. They are awsome
Me: Looks at someone playing control...
Also me: Laughs in Karador 😂😂😂
My experience with control in a nutshell:
Control friend: yo you can cast Gishath now
Me: Damn dude its dino time now *casts commander*
Control player: Distainful nope
Me: oh