My BIGGEST Machine Regrets! What was I thinking? - Pierson Workholding
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2024
- Today Jay goes over his top 3 BIGGEST machine buying regrets! Learn from my mistakes!
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Jay shares his 3 top machine buying regrets in this Pierson Workholding Q&A. If you've ever thought about purchasing a Haas Super Mini Mill 2, Universal Robots UR10, or a Doosan 2 axis lathe check out this video for some perspective on why you might want to reconsider that purchase. Jay talks you through his experience and drops some valuable lessons learned at the end of each regret.
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CHAPTERS
0:00 Machine Regrets
1:10 Haas Super Mini Mill 2
4:33 Doosan 2-axis lathe
6:36 UR10 Robot
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@Jad Scott Instablaster :)
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"Buy equipment for where you want to go, not where you are" absolutely amazing advice, 100% agree.
Great advice. And also My plan in my shop
I have zero cnc experience.
I purchased a fanuc Robodrill-alpha-t21iel to learn on....
It's not easy, struggling a bit but it is far capable
@@Robodriller great solid machine. control is far from user friendly. but it's battle tested.
What's the quote mean
@@RobodrillerRobos are some of my favorite machines. They're overpriced, but very fast, reliable and quite accurate.
"Invest in people, then free them up through automation." Golden piece of advice!
Yeah. Free their time through automation so that they have time to observe, learn and upgrade themselves.
One good thought can replace a lot of hands.
Completely Agree 100%..!!!
We have several lathes in our shop ranging from 2 axis up to 8 axis twin turret/spindle/Y axis milling. All I can say is there is always a need for a 2 axis lathe. They all have their place but about 40% of the work that goes through our shop requires a big heavy 2 axis lathe.
Agreed!
Good video. My story....I integrated my Trumpf laser, cnc press brake and HAAS VF-3 SS along with welding. I was able to make parts that other shops turned down. And I got paid very well. My VF-3 was the big help by using four vises at times, I could bring parts to the mill, then to the brake, back to the mill, all after being precision laser cut first. Or what ever would be the best through put and quality . I never sacrificed quality for production.
I bought the biggest and best far above my needs for the moment. I bought for the future. Yes, it was expensive at first, but those machines opened more and more doors for my shop. The bottom line is, if I didn’t do my job to get out there and hustle, no amount of money spent or machinery, even number of employees will make my shop a success. The buck stopped with me first. Now, here is the other part, those machines will run 24/7. So can your shop. Run three shifts and delegate the leadership to a capable trustworthy employee.
Good employees will make you. Bad one will break you. Don’t be afraid to let a bad Apple go. Drug screen every body. Give no second change to a positive test. I had two that were using. In one second, my programmer broke the foot of my laser operator and they were both using. One on pot, the other drunk. So, I not only had to fire them both, I lost production, a ton of money on my workers comp, and I had to hire two new people.
Being self employed in America is rewarding and horrible at the same time. I made it for 31 years as a sole proprietor. It was fun, exciting, rewarding money wise in the end, but that long road was not with out some huge potholes. Being in California Central Valley was the worst. The regulations here are ridiculous. There have been times I was at the end of my rope and wanted to move out of this state. But, winter months here are the best.
There were times when everything was working like a fine Swiss watch, and my check book grew exponentially. There were times when an operator never checked his parts and cut ten sheets of 10 gauge stainless steel and never checked a thing, even though he programmed that part. Now, a weeks worth of cutting lost, a 7500 gallon tank of nitrogen lost clean cutting lost. Each sheet was a thousand bucks times ten.....lost. And the wages paid.....all lost because I hired the wrong guy for the job and did not insist on documenting that he checked the parts. All that changed.
Being self employed does not mean to work your own hours. It really means to work all the hours you can. Retired now, and catching up on 31 years of lost sleep.
@johnholmes4960 Late to the party but that was some incredible insight. Congratulations on your retirement.
Great video. No bullshit, no worrying about your own ego, just reasonable and rational insight into your decisions - much appreciated.
Great advice Jay. If you do a similar video in the future, maybe you could touch on any regrets with other supplementary tools such as saws, forklifts, software, storage systems, etc. Or any regrets with product development or customer relations. I am digging the series!
Already shot it and coming soon!
Another great video, very clearly laid out with honest advise/experience. Lessons learned are invaluable.
Loved the little smile when chatting about the bar feeder being a licence to print money 🤑
Looking forward to the lathe comparison
Hi Jay, thank you for another awesome video and again talking about shop owners everyday questions, problems and giving us your vision on how to go forward the best way. 👍👍👍
Can't wait to watch next episode : Haas lathe VS Doosan lathes 😱🤔
Saving this one for future reminders, great lessons well presented. Charles
Great series. Keep the wisdom flowing 👍🏻
I just bought a $10k Precision Matthews Lathe and thought I was doing well. Your pockets look like the Grand Canyon compared to my tiny cracks in the pavement
RESPECT.
I'm hoping an EMP will wipe out all the CNC lathes so the manual lathes can rule Supreme. Ha ha.
We all start somewhere! Congrats on the new lathe! - JP
A truly great bit of info!!! Rock solid advice.
Thank you for sharing, we learn a lot form your experience 🙏
This is great! We have a medical machine shop and are looking at buying our first Swiss. My retired father still writes the checks and needs some convincing to purchase more than we need. He wants to buy what we need right now. My philosophy is like yours, but for what we will eventually need.
I screenshotted some of your “Lesson Learned” text and emailed that and the video link to him.
Great advice!
How do you find work for your medical shop?
I look forward to your Doosan/Haas lathe comparison. I remember why you chose the Doosan and am curious to hear your thoughts now.
Amazing production quality thank you
Thank you again for simple and business thinking. We just started up this week new VM-6, 50+1 tools, TS coolant,... 2 year back, without your ideas and advices, I would never buy such opitions on machine. thank you, Tony, Czech Republic
This was incredibly helpful!
As always, awesome video!
Thankyou for this video, I am currently trying to decide which machine I should go for VF-1 or Super mini mill 2.
Great video Jay, love you attention to detail as well as thinking outside the box to increase efficiency. Looking forward to the Haas/Doosan comparison.
Some really good insights here Jay. I’m looking into getting a Mini Mill for my first machine and sticking it in my garage. I thought about the super variants a little bit and decided that having that kind of speed in that small of a machine hardly seems necessary. If you had the work area of a VF6 then I can understand saving production time with higher pitch ball screws.
Thanks for all the good content!
get the 10k spindle and HSM. the minis suck without it. the biggest problem with the mini is work envelope. Its very small and the changer is close to the table. any part taller than 4" is hard to hold in a vise without running into the changer. The tool room mill is really a better option than the mini. you get a MUCH larger work envelope. and its cheaper. that was my regret.
@@DieselRamcharger I’m going with the 10k spindle for sure but was on the fence about HSM because of price. Does it make that big of a difference?
I am pretty restricted on space right now so kinda locked into going with the smallest machine I can.
@@thekeyfox The HSM has a 200 hour trial. Buy it if it works for you. You're right... Speed and small machines are borderline unnecessary.
@@PiersonWorkholding Thats interesting! I didn’t think about Haas’ NGC having the ability to demo software features but that would make sense. Good to know! Thanks!
I wish that I had seen this video just over a year ago, before my company bought a 2 axis lathe without threading.
Just to let you know that I have watched several of your videos. You are personable, speak well, and explain your item clearly. Although you are quite off to the side for practicality to me, I still enjoy the dynamics of engineering. Loved your lean series BTW.
I have shared this to my LinkedIn page. Some good stuff here
The newer super mini mills and DM/DT machines really need to be anchored to the ground. They are crazy fast for their size. Besides that, there's nothing inherently wrong with welded machine frames, provided they are properly designed. Larger machines are bolted together, after all. I'd also anchor down any of the UMC SS machines ae well. As for lathes, I agree that I will never buy a CNC lathe without a Y axis again. It's just too much versatility to give up on.
friend got a millturn where the milling spindle was stuck in the locked position mode (the motor was deadiirc) for cheap and he says the same thing about normal lathes :D
Good to learn!
Awesome video!!! Thanks !
Very useful video, thank you.
For automation check out multi pallet machine, they rock. Using them much easier than robots.
Last year we got Matsuura MX330 PC10,
I love this machine.
Latest tooling purchase regret I have is buying an Orange Vise Delta IV 4th axis vise. For the cost of a Kurt DX6, which is the best precision vise value IMO, the OC vise is hastily made, has sloppy tolerances and is a pain to use. I'll be buying a Lang or 5th axis as a replacement. Lesson learned!
Thank you for sharing your mistakes!
Great video, thank you.
I almost purchase one in 2002. After seeing it out .003” out. I backed off plus the haas dealer tried screwing me with. It a good thing I didn’t put any money down on it. I end up purchasing a Okuma and never looked back. Now I have three OKUMA been very happy with them and dealer support has been great. Their are within .00012” accuracy. 😎
Hi, really enjoyed , Thank you
Good talk. Probably one of your best, wise man. :)
There are a LOT of parts that can be done on a 2-axis lathe complete. Add a bar feeder and you are printing money with a 2 axis lathe.
If you are a job shop, however and have to accommodate all sorts of parts - the twin spindle Y-axis machine ensures you can make a larger variety of parts.
I love your videos!
Interesting comment on the UR10. Even though you regret the purchase, I still see a UR behind behind you on the VF. Do you feel your latest robot purchased has proven its value? Or are there regrets there?
I don't regret the robot, I regret thinking it would replace an employee. Our latest robots free up employees so they're not doing dumb, repetitive work and are free to use their brains.
It's very interesting, but you can't say what's better unless you compare the types of parts you are making.
You can make anything on anything, but there's always an ideal machine centered around the type of part to be made
Great advice on the robot. It's very important to do a proper ROI on automation. UR makes a very good product (especially the newer e-series) but with any automation you need to consider everything that could go wrong and how to handle that. You need extra sensors, a way to recover automatically from faults if possible, and most importantly keep things as simple as possible. If you can do it w/o vision, DO NOT use vision - no matter how simple people make it look.
For anyone considering using a robot for machine tending, look at using an air cylinder or other actuator to handle opening and closing the doors. The robot should not be doing that long term. Also, if you can't wire a relay contact across your start pushbutton, consider using a small solenoid instead of having the robot push the button. (Assuming your CNC machine doesn't have another interface option).
even if you're not sure if you're going to put a robot on the machine, automatic doors is a nice creature comfort that'll likely pay for itself when/if you sell the machine anyway
I know this is and older video but I’m trying to start in my garage and I have limited space. The mini mill is perfect fit would you recommend and older 90’s model vf0 or go with the mini mill? Hight is my problem. Also I can run the mini mill on single phase? We will be a small part machine shop. For now. Thanks hopefully you can get back with me.
A newer Mini Mill for sure if you're starting in a garage. Old Haas machines are expensive to setup, move and service. MM's run on single phase and designed to squeeze under a garage door. Plus you can move it around with a pallet jack.
Should have got a vf3, can get them cheap as chips great bed size
Hass mini mill can you machine stainless steel?
what we have found is if we over speck a machine it puts it out the window unless it can be fed 24 7, I had a customer that told me what he was already paying for the part and the only way i could get close was a Doosan lathe twin spindle twin turret with full milling as well and when i got the price in £350 k with bar feeder i fell off my seat, it needed 4 milling and 12 drills with taps and the turn and bore but this would have meant the bar would be loaded and the part was done totally finished but the customer wouldn't give me a written guarantee on 1200 parts a month, so we said stick with the guy making them now, but when we brought an edm machine in the late 90s we looked at the charmilles 290 but then went the whole hog and got a 510 and boy are we glad we did, finance wise we were bricking it for 3 years as back then it was 140 K and in the uk we could have brought 3 2 bed houses ( would have made more money now ) . A lot of my customers are all going down the automation road and reducing workers because the pick and place robots are getting so simple to program. Carnt wait to see what the pros and cons of the lathes are . 👍
great video
My biggest (small) regret getting MQL instead of thru spindel coolant
Many said the same for the mini mill. Almost all said Barebones vf is much better. Really appreciate your content.
My employer bought a monarch cnc machine in the 90s-early 2000s and it was so bad and broke down so much that they sued monarch, got their money back plus lost jobs and legal fees. (I wasn’t wasn’t there when it happened)
LOL. I just bought a SMM2 last Friday. I will say this; I wanted a VF2 but it won't fit in my garage; so for now the SMM2 was the best option I could get.
No shame there... That's a valid reason!
I also got a Super Mini Mill because none of the VF units would fit in my garage. No regrets.
My MM2 was delivered a month ago and I could but be happier with it. I'm running G00 at half speed and it's still uncomfortably fast at times.
Would you get a tool room mill or would you get a VF mill?
VF for sure! Even a used VF is better than a TM.
@@PiersonWorkholding Thank you.
You can say that you are experienced because experience is what you get when you didn’t get what you wanted.
Sorry but I don't understand why a higher pitch ballscrew should be more suseptable to thermal growth than others?
Yes, I misspoke and mixed up two different things. 1. Higher pitch ballscrews have less resolution per step. 2. The machine was more susceptible to thermal fluctuations. Two different problems, one bad explanation. - JP
No safety glasses?
Sorry mom. I took off my glasses while in the office. 🤓
Bar feeder is a money printer. That is the god damned truth. I sold my old ass ancient lathe when i bought my new haas. what a mistake. that old piece of shit would run all day unattended just pooping parts out every 8 minutes. fucking loved it.
eso es belda
You bought any Haas and didn’t regret it ?
My biggest regret is never buy a linear guide lathe again.
Can your mini mill and I start a life together for 4 figures cash.
Before tax
Fish
Buy the solution for your process, not the shiny machine. 2020 UMC750SS machines are a lawsuit waiting to happen 0.003-0.004” range in parts. Huge capability downgrade before a replacement cycle.
My biggest purchasing regret was buying a Mazak lathe. The hardware is mostly OK. The software is an abomination before God. Never again.
Would love to hear your thighs on mazak machines. Or anyone in the comments thoughts on them.
We run all Mazak cnc machines, 4 lathes and 1 mill. Very solid mechanically and the Mazatrol software is pretty decent for all your basic machining programming. They are expensive but our oldest cnc lathe is 30+ years old and still runs quite well. Needs a new chuck the old one is definitely sloppier now but we just delegate it to the random jobs that don't require as much precision for now. We bought 2 2019 model Lathes in 2020. The 350M and a 300 MY. The new controls are nice, I'd definitely recommend going for the touch screen variant which we got with the 350M. Has a good number of extra features and much easier to navigate. Mechanically both of these machines are very solid and we are already used to the programming language of Mazak, that hasn't changed all that much over the years.
We did have some small issues, on the 350M one of the live radial tools had some out of spec bearings which tripped out the machine when it ran for too long. Mazak replaced this and the new one has been fine. I also hear that they have since replaced their live tool Manufacturer to WTO which have a good rep from what I hear.
On our smaller 300MY the hard jaws that came with the machine had some runout, more then what I thought would be acceptable. Not a difficult fix but still annoying to get out of the box.
Other then that our 350M has been running nonstop for a year without any issues.
The biggest issue I'd say you'll find is that local support for Mazak is more scarce then say Haas would be in the states. Our shop is located in Australia btw. So replacement parts have a larger delay I would think. Some of the mentality about Mazatrol control is a bit backwards and really should be updated to fit modern sensibilities. Nothing you can't work around but still I scratch my head at some of the outdated methods. Although if you're using cad/cam software to program it's not really an issue.
Hope this helps, let me know if you want any more details.