@Gareth Never played for objectives (those silly 6 thingies on the board, right?) Always played for obliterating my enemies. Win loss ration is about 30/70, playing BA, DG
I think they’re really good at getting engage at all fronts and deploy scramblers due to the idea that they focus on disrupting enemy defenses and, in some cases, advances. They aren’t great on their own, but they excel at supporting other units by adding extra firepower and grenades.
They get screened relatively easily. Being the best on paper does not mean best on the tabletop. Common that they will only have a squad of troops as a target then get blasted off the table since they are short range and easy to get to. It is more important to maximize the ones you put in your list than to spam them. Strategic reserves, encirclement, a librarian for 5++, what have you.
Doesn’t really help when there are other units that basically do what reivers do, but better, sums up one of my biggest problems with Primaris is the amount of redundancies this faction has.
I think they are probably the worst unit in the dex right now. Eradicators got their own tier, and I think there should be a Reiver Tier at the opposite end of the spectrum.
I'm going to be running 3 Redemptors with a Master of the Forge babysitter, using Wisdom of the Ancients every turn for rerolls. They're just absolutely fantastic and I'm really happy I bought 3 when they first came out
Sanguinary Guard went down 4 points pr model. Now they were over costed before but now they get 3 attacks base. -1 To hit them in melee! Angelus Boltguns are 18 inches! up from 12! Encarmine weapons are FREE! AMAZING!
I started my BA collection about three months ago by buying another guy's models that he never used cause he plays Templars (poor man). Added the Start Collecting Box. So, got some Tacs, Lemartes, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company, a Rhino, Terminator Captain... and a full unit of Sanguinary Guard with an Ancient. Oh sweet Sanguinius, those Sanguinary Guard. Pair them with the Terminator Captain as the Warlord, drop them in, murder the enemy backfield. The Sang Guard alone have guaranteed I will never, ever want to try another Chapter.
@Gareth Lore wise they're barely bigger on average than a first born marine and there are plenty of first borns out there who are bigger than the average Primaris, Tyberos for example.
The eradicator's "total obliteration" rule shoud be a strategem. A strategem that would be available to all primaris gravis units - increasing in cp cost for larger units
I normally am always onboard with your assessment of units, but I feel whirlwinds have been undersold here (purely because the stratagem for them to force an enemy to fight last is REALLY good). Tier 2 in my book for the stratagem alone. The actual damage output is awful but the utility is excellent. #JudiciarInBrickForm
Maybe Lower Tier 2. I think it's similar to the Drop Pod in that respect--certain space marine chapters will love them--most will probably hard pass. But I think that's why he did Tier 3 / 2 Lower / 2 Upper / 1 / [Redacted]. Tier 4 has usually been unplayable garbage, and as you said--the WW has some fringe uses. Tier 3 is inefficient, but not worthless.
What do you think of the new 'outflank' rules for scouts/scout bikes/land speeder storms effectively giving them Turn 1 strategic reserves for free? I've not heard much mentioned about it when scouts are discussed.
I'm just wondering when I'll ever have 585 spare points to use my 3-man Devastator Centurions & Land Raider ever again (300pts for the Centurions with Heavy Bolter + Hurricane Bolter, 70pts base plus 15x2 for loadout, then 285pts for the Land Raider), that Land Raider is my 4th & last transportation vehicle... I need more transports
@@Michael-og7js 1) already glued & painted 2) I wanted something dedicated to anti-light Infantry weapons, ie: mass volume of "More Dakka", which they do & it hilarious when they delete something in 1 turn 3) Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic, more a bonus but it has helped me
I found this very useful for planning future competitive lists, My only thought is Scout bikes, yes on paper they dont look as good as SM bikes but the few times i have fielded them i have had some good returns point for point... 5pts less than bikers ,...move 16" plus turbo boost 6" Shotguns (great when they advance and always a little extra fire power) Combat blades AND bolt pistols, they are good all rounders great for targeting light infantry and grabbing objectives early on. Not saying they are better than SM bikers but in smaller point games i am glad to have the slightly cheaper option there......i use mine in my carcharodons, which i run usually as white scar successors .
Scouts with snipers are incredibly powerful if starting outside of their own range. Seriously. If they are allowed to run to cover, then fire from cover for the rest of the game, because of their range and difficulty to hit due to their cloaks.
Two things Blood Angels Assault marines are on a whole other level of nasty and they are fast attack a slot for most marine lists that is rather empty and while vanguards are in the most competitive slot for marines that being elite
I don't know if it makes any substantial difference to their respective ratings, but basic Landspeeders pair well with Whirlwinds due to the former's special rule giving the WW +1 to hit rolls against a visible target within 18" of the speeder. Makes the Whirlwind's damage output slightly more reliable, and cancels out the benefit of Dense Cover.
Note, this is all tournament play. If you play friendlies, you can make some pretty cool builds with them surrounding their leadership abilities. That and as white-scars they are absolutely terrifying with their AP-1 D2 combat knifes in turn 3.
Deepstriking reivers with knives can be extremely fun to slash up backline troops or artillery, especially with any buffs (librarians, reserve leuitenant etc.)
Now that dreads can have either rites of battle or tactical precision for 1CP, The captain/lieutenant combo is a lot less tempting. I find myself choosing the "secondary" HQs like chaplains and libbys. The former being very powerful in 9th.
Sighs... i have like 3 land raiders still in their boxes... a drop pod on its way ... and 2 units of assault marines and scouts ... the only thing i painted so far are the assault marines :p fml
Have we had a cool Eradicator character in any of the Black Library novels yet? Maybe Jurgen can be gifted an Eradicator gun in a new Caiaphas Cain novel?
"Somehow, I still don't know how he did it, but somehow Jurgen had found a set of power armor that fit him. With a backpack for his new Eradicator gun too. Of course, the inside of the suit smelled like an Ork latrine and when the seals popped open to let him out the backdraft had made a cogboy vomit. Also, I'm pretty sure he figured out how to play the contents of a couple pornoslates on the helmet's heads-up display. But still, there was nothing like shiny power armor when I needed something between me and an enemy gun bigger than I was."
I personally think Contemptors should be in the upper tier2. They are quite a bit stronger than in 8th since they don't get bracketed anymore and having the duty eternal rule build in alongside a 5++ save is really nice.
With AP-3, the difference between 5++ and 6+ and 6+++ is almost negilgable vs. D1 weapons. That plus 2+ to hit *and* a lower price tag make the Venerable boi a clear winner to me. Yes, yes, eradicatros blablabla. People I play with are humane, ok?
@@oliverp3545 I built ten of them and they are a hassle to build. That was the ones with camo cloaks and snipers. The head joint isn't even a joint, more like a flat area that doesn't line up with the heads.
Veteran Intercessors belong in Tier 3, IMHO. There's no point to taking them over Vanguard or regular Intercessors. They are worse melee units than Vanguard Vets, and only gain 1 no S/AP attack over regular Intercessors while losing ObSec. The same arguments you applied to Assault Marines apply to them. It looks like you may have mistakenly ranked them as if they were Troops rather than Elites. I'd agree with moving Drop Pods to Tier 2. They're unimpressive on their own, but the contents you can put into them have improved significantly. I would move the Ironclad and Contemptor to high Tier 2. Both are defensively comparable to the Venerable Dread. The Contemptor adds movement, which can be key in 9th. The Ironclad is the best of the bunch for a melee dread. I would drop the Firestrike and Eliminators to low Tier 2. Firestrike's very low movement is going to make it hard for it to find targets. Eliminators are still decent, but losing the ignore line of sight shots and the increased amount of terrain blocking line of sight knocks them down a peg.
I feel like the hammerfall would be better if it could do an orbital drop like a drop pod. Also, being unmanned, surely it's a good candidate for a rod from god, landing ON infantry and crushing them beneath it's great weight and then opening fire
Gonna have to disagree with you on that scout pick. They take up an elite slot, effectively apply no damage without major points investment and if you want a infiltrator you can just take....Infiltrators or Incursors. They do have outflank though, so the ONE use they have is to suicide drive for objective activations in risky areas of the board. Their sniper rifles got buffed though which is weird, still bad though. Bikes squads can include an attack bike to boost the squads damage output and while protecting the melta on it. Those squads can also take two special weapons which really boost their damage output for 30 points. I'd put them roughly in line with attack bikes. I feel that tactical squads are on par with Intercessors if upgraded correctly. Their role is either close or mid range fire support for front line units like blade Guards or Assault Intercessors. Both will struggle with hard targets (high wounds high toughness) but when supported by a melta tactical squad they can effectively handle such a threat up close. They also get 10 point grav cannons which are stupid points efficient when fighting marines. Furthermore the tactical squad goes from being a fire support unit to a melee tank hunter when engaging vehicles with their access to the melta bomb stratagem. Throw a heavy bolter in that squad and they can deal 3d3 mortal wounds a turn to a vehicle for 2 CP, that's pretty spicy.
Gotta agree, I think everyone is so abituated to think of intercessors as better tacticals that they forget tee real strength of tac squads- versatility. Maybe tacs are worse than primaris, but they can be put either in cheaper transports, which can transport more than impulsors, in transports with a reasonable firepower, or even in drop pods, if you so wanted. And theirs hooting is worse than intercessors', but with the points difference you can chuck a heavy bolter or a grav cannon in the squad, heavily influencing it. Intercessors may be better as pure battle line, but tacticals can get geared up to support whatever role your battle line is missing, while still filling battalions and retaining obsec.
Almost all vehicles ending the low tier is the issue of the current codex (aside from Eradicators being pure cheese). I get that they want to avoid the Iron Hands situations with 3 RepEx and 3 Redemptor Dreads would be pretty much invincible, but I think the pendulum swung a little bit too far to the other side.
@@oliverp3545 they killed that many points the whole day. Not each round. After rereading post I it sounded like I could have said either. They’re good but I expect them to be toned down at some point.
I don't think Assaultintercessors quite warrent A, The potential is there but without a reliable delivery system they tend to flounder trying to cross the board
Insinuating?, No, Outright saying it, 5 without any support is not an effective unit and adding more means more imps and then a dedicated imp to transport the support, The cost is beyond prohibitive to make it work and it falls far short of the myriad of options the codex already has for effective melee
I have been having great success with Ironclad dreads with the hurricane bolter, 2 hunter killers, and chain fist setup. It comes in pretty low on points, and I think the T8 from T7 makes it much more durable. The auto D6 vs vehicles is a good bonus.
I used mine in a Stormraven since 8th and it is the one unit, that never disappoints. Once killed 4 Allarus in one round of combat. I lovingly call it "Herrmann" for all the manly aspirations in it (Usually just play gunlines, it is the exception), which is a german combination of "Mister" and "Man". I like to keep it a tad crazy, makes life more bearable :p.
Where would you put including imperial agents? Also i think you are underestimating the usefullnes of being a flyer for the stormhawk and talon. And having a minus 1 to hit for most units.
stormtalon it the best flyer for point to point, they can hover, deny enemy objective or even kill a character in 1st turn... i still running 2 stormtalon in my army though...
The Eradicators are the reason nobody is taking tank heavy armies at the moment, I lost 3 imperial knights in a single turn from 3 units of Eradicators just walking on from reserve and wiping them out, it was about 1500 points just deleted with nothing I could do about it, played the same opponent half a dozen times and it was pretty much the same result every game.
I think Devastators are better than Hellblasters, but especially Long Fangs, who can reroll hit rolls of 1 (against a specific target) and have the ability to tack on a terminator for a 4++. Neither of which the Hellblasters get, they also have more shots with the same strength and AP, except heavy plasma, which had one more strength and AP, but with even less shots.
Sadly, I'm pretty sure Long Fangs lost the reroll 1's thing. They are basically just Devastators with a funny name now. They can, however, take more heavy weapons in a squad and can take a WGPL with Cyclone Launcher for the lolz.
Personally I'd rank the whirlwind a bit higher. The damage output is not spectacular, but it is the only way to access the excellent Suppressive Fire stratagem, which can be very powerful. I also feel you're a bit too generous to scouts. I dont see many people taking them, even situationally. Infiltrators and Incursors do their job better, and are Troops choices. You do pay more for them of course, but they are also more than twice as durable with their 2 wounds and their power armor.
I'd have probably rated the vernerable dread a bit higher than tier 2. The loadout options are good with 2+ BS, but also they are so cheap. I can see these being able to deal with a few times their pts cost comfortably in a game and also very easy to hide in turn 1 in case you don't get first turn.
Why would you run normal intercessors when tactical squads actually outgun them once upgraded with heavy and special weapons? Tac marines are just as durable now and far more flexible
For objective camping, I think tacs are actually much better than intercessors, as you said, because they can be kitted out to shoot better without spending any more points. For battle line though I can see the argument, as intercessors have access to transhuman and fight better, so they can bully objectives away from enemy troops. Even then, for both scenarios you have to take into account transports and stratagems... I think the two squad are actually quite balanced between them, it's just that most people overlook tacticals in favor of intercessors, because they have been doing that for the past few years
Intercessors with auto bolt rifles outshoot tac marines with weapon upgrades point for point, can hold their own in melee, and have access to some strategems that can double their bolter damage or make them super hard to kill.
@@Taurox220 it depends on the target, but if you're talking about objective camping I hardly believe intercessors outshoot tacticals. 5 more shoots at str4 ap 0 don't compare pretty well to 3 s5 ap2 (in the first turn) D2 attacks, with highger range, whether the target is a marine or an aggressor equivalent. And while yes, intercessors do have access to better stratagems, you're sinking a lot of command points on an objective camping unit. And tacticals can actually outmelee them if you kit out the seargent with LCs. So tacticals, for the same price, can outshoot or outmelee intercessors, depending on how you spend the points, plus have access to a wider variety of, IMHO, better transports. And to add to this, if you spend a little more points, you can equip them with either missile launchers, which are a good flexible choice, or lascannons, to have some good AT fire support. You can even give them grav cannons, for lower range but better AI firepower.
Question for you sir. Except for the Ravenwing, which chapter can take an Apothecary who can keep pace with the Invader ATV? If you are keeping the ATV in your back field you are not getting the most of it. So the scenario of an Apothecary returning one back to life is going to be very very rare.
I'm playing primaris only. Will put the primaris apothecary (as chief and warlord) into an impulsor with 5 bladeguard to keep pace with the atv squad. That way I can heal atv and bladeguards and bring back either an 8wound or 3wound model
For eradicators, what about their alternative weapons (which have not yet been release) such as multi-melta (+20 points) and heavy melta-rifle (cost not listed on the Munitorium Field Manual). Do you favor any of those weapons for the cost upgrade if any??
Right, if they had just FAQd Land Raider types and Drop Pods to carry 3 of any type of Primaris... Maybe people would have ever so slightly taken to them a bit better. Instead of just seeing a grab for their money with no upside while being forced to wait for their inevitable tanks. Also kinda lent to the idea of Primaris replacing true born. Nevermind all the giant super heavy tanks that should also have been able to take them.
It feels really silly how Primaris being a bit bigger means they cant be in these vehicles. Keep in mind that their average height is simply just the higher end of what Firstborns can achieve and arent too huge in comparison. So you could make a case that you just are only able to fit less of them in but outright is ridiculous and honestly low effort. Like with Craftworlds you can have any infantry go into vehicles that allow it but Wraith Constructs are worth two normal ones, which makes sense, so why not just do the same with Primaris.
@@TITAN_101 exactly, if it's the case that you can fit 3 centurions in a vehicle then why not your standard Firstborn, because I'm pretty sure Centurions are very wide bois next to Primaris Marines, so if you can fit 3 Centurions then 3 Primaris Marines should easily be able to fit comfortably in it.
They needed a points drop, more wounds and/or an invuln. They're just dead to eradicators now. Really sad that such an iconic SM vehicle has never really been viable :(
I needed this to help my son (9). We got the command edition and the Necron side of that set is waaaaaaay stronger. Knowing what to expand into will be great.
Doesn't seem to make sense from a design standpoint that the only way to take advantage of heavy weapons in the devastator doctrine during turn 1 has to involve putting them on platforms that are ranked lowest tier such as flyers, in drop pods, and the only indirect firepower platforms in the codex. Now that the Iron Hands OP situation has been dealt with, why they did not allow the dev doctrine to be used optionally in the second round is beyond comprehension.
Have to disagree with tier 3 for whirlwinds. Non LoS firing plus the supression fire strat is super valuable for white scars and their successors. Its 1cp to do the Judiciar's ability, but better.
I have to disagree with some of the teir 3 tanks, especially the vindicator and stalker. T8, 2+ save on the vindicator, both with great guns and no penalty to shoot from moving. Sure the randomness of the vindicators shots and damage is annoying but blast has helped and its a prime target for cp reroll. Stalkers are now better anti-air than ever before while also being effective against everything else now they have no negatives to shooting at ground targets. Even the predators are cheap ways to get a mobile, resilient fire platform for better damage output than a devastator squad at similar cost.
@@ZergSmasher DA here too! Havent gotten to play my first game, but I'm super happy to see my entire list will be viable (started with splitting a Dark Vengeance set)
I’m confused at around 9mins he mentions using raven Gaurd stratagem for assault centurion insertion, are the raven gaurd stratagems in the codex supplement still valid? I assumed it was now obsolete with release of the new codex, or can we still use it? Would really appreciate it if someone knows, can’t find a list on GW of what and what isn’t valid any more.
@@lordofhykra6150 This page has all the latest errata (rules changes/updates) for 9th edition. www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/ At the top, just tab over to the 40K section and find the codex or supplement you're interested in. Hope this helps.
I think scouts are too high. They don’t get Obsec and there’s zero reason to take them when you have to lose an elite choice. I also think that Assault Int. Are a tier too high; they’re a combination of blade guard vets and regular intercessors, but do both things worse.
Feeling really frustrated with Space Marine delivery systems. Transports are too tangled and the dedicated Primaris vs. non is making a mess of it. New index definitely got rid of some cheese, but the new marine meta feels like a slow trudge across the board while hoping transhuman physiology keeps you alive. For that reason, I’d rank the assault Intercessors lower.
Currently I'm not using eradicators because I find them silly, and I like to have friends. I'd be happy with a nerf. Aside from that, and the ATV being res-able, I really like what they've done with this codex. I like me some terms and dreads, so I'm happy :D
Preds are very effective cheap tanks no rerolls needed quite frankly since at their cost you can afford to field multiple ones for the same price as one gladiator
@@Taurox220 they are basically Salamenders all over again but this time every chapter can take them and just pew pew every unit in the game without problem. Please GW, use the Nerfhammer on them asap
I wish GW would give more love to the tanks, at least the first born tanks by giving them re rolls back or special rules depending on the chapter, cause they’re some of the coolest models in the army
Sternguard vétéran for me is a tier one yes they dont have obj sec but with a Warlord trait it fix . And ap-3 turn 2 omg most unit lose theyre armor save
They said I was mad for fielding 10 attack bikes... WHO IS LAUGHING NOW HUH?! From bottom tier to tier 1 baby thats what we've been waiting for, thats what its all about. Ye olde biker boyos reign suprem.
I don't get the hate for Reivers. No, they aren't the best unit, definitely not top tier. But with bolt pistols and combat knives, they have the same durability as Assault Intercessors, and as many attacks (albeit lacking the AP-1), they are cheaper, and Intercessors are top tier. With Bolt Carbines, they compare to Autoboltrifle Intercessors, granted with 1 less shot per model, though again cheaper, and same durability. Further benefits the Intercessors don't get, The terror troops ability being changed to - 2 makes a real difference, it means that if they can kill a single model in combined shooting/melee (which is not unlikely) they will have a good 1 in 3 chance of forcing the target unit (I'm Assuming a leadership of 8,which is common across the meta) to fail morale, leading to more models lost. That 1 in 3 goes up if you kill more than 1 model in the unit - again, not unlikely. This makes them great at taking out hordes. Also the terror troops strategems essentially nullifies Obsec in enemy troops, and nullifies any actions - a great way of stopping enemies from scoring VP (which is the point of the game). Also shock Grenades, also only 2 points for a deepstrike (grav chutes), or outflank and move over vertical obstacles, which makes them great for hiding out of LOS then springing on targets. Not a direct-damage-output unit, but indirect horde buster, and point scoring unit (or rather, point denial, which equates to the same thing). Better than bottom tier.
Errmm Stalkers are brilliant, my Imperial Fist I always run 2, and now they have simply got better with loosing the -1 to hit penalty for firing a heavy weapon from a vehicle, and -1 for shooting a non-flyer model. 6 autocannon shots is fantastic especially with Imp Fists super doctrine turn one :)
*Necron player watching this video to learn my target priority*
Recom and INFORMATION is a weapon all of its own. Thats why i watch too.
*cries in Tyranid noises kekekekekekek*
I did used my ghost ark to soak all the shoots from the eradicator with the old QS before the codex hit
Remember necron players, deathmarks squads
@Gareth Never played for objectives (those silly 6 thingies on the board, right?)
Always played for obliterating my enemies. Win loss ration is about 30/70, playing BA, DG
Smart to do so. Learning your enemy is one of the best tactics you can practice. May your dice roll hot.
To be honest the tier for this army should not be “a-b-c” but “staple - built around - situational” for better context.
That's a really good way of putting it 👍
Could be like that for all armies truth be told.
I think You underestimated Raivers.
They are God Emperor-tier source of skull faced helmets.
Yes, yes, they are.
So basically if you want your Chaplain to look good you need to get them xD
I think they’re really good at getting engage at all fronts and deploy scramblers due to the idea that they focus on disrupting enemy defenses and, in some cases, advances. They aren’t great on their own, but they excel at supporting other units by adding extra firepower and grenades.
I'm really loving that they nerfed the shit out of the Repulsor just as I got mine from Conquest magazine.
I know right
It deserves it has no track's... floating xenos filth tech .
Just got back into 40K and one of my first buys was a Repulsor Executioner...
Fs in chat 😭😂
Scout squads don't get Objective Secured. They will find stealing an objective on turn 1 almost impossible. They belong in Tier 3.
They can if the enemy do not have fast enough units, which is a gamble
Yeah I wish they dropped in points or stayed as Troops.
@@vversusv1364 Then nobody would take any other troops choice.
Why are the rookies an elite choice?!
@@jrheiselt Don't tell them the're not special. It's a moral boost!
I think you underrate Eradicators xD
Yeah, they should definitely be at least a tier higher
IKR I ran the numbers and a squad of 6 for 12 power can do upwards of 140 wounds a turn.
@@Sekhandur Only 140 wounds? did they got nerfed?
@@leiziru9642 I felt the cheese that is running 3 squads of 6 and using "combat squads" at the beginning of the game to get 6 squads of 3
@@aleixmoya6545 Ouch.
Just spam intercessors to fill troop choice
theb take a bunch of those melta primaris guys
step 1: SPHESS MEREENES
step 2: win
They get screened relatively easily. Being the best on paper does not mean best on the tabletop. Common that they will only have a squad of troops as a target then get blasted off the table since they are short range and easy to get to. It is more important to maximize the ones you put in your list than to spam them. Strategic reserves, encirclement, a librarian for 5++, what have you.
@@alpharius7216 I don't even play SM I play Custodes and Thousand Sons
@@Illiadofmalorne b-but... sphess meehreens...
@@malekiththeeternityking5433 my main force is 1k sons aswell with a knight for fun, but i do have a small 500 pt sm army (that i am yet to play)
Captain with heavy bolt rifle.
S Tier.
You heard it here first kids.
Poor Reavers they feel like they've never had a real place.
Yeah. For me they do look cool, but man the lack of CCW upgrades just ruins it. Like, come on, not even Sarge can get power weapons in that squad.
Doesn’t really help when there are other units that basically do what reivers do, but better, sums up one of my biggest problems with Primaris is the amount of redundancies this faction has.
I do agree with others rievers are only bad IF you compare them to marines, this unit in any other faction with those stats looks pretty solid.
I think they are probably the worst unit in the dex right now. Eradicators got their own tier, and I think there should be a Reiver Tier at the opposite end of the spectrum.
The only good thing about them is they make good conversion fodder
Wow, your sound is unbelievable on this one, whatever you did it's working great!
Me: *sees tier 1*
No eradicators
Later that day....
Me: *ohh*
Even the low tier of space marines is still viable for competitive play. It would be nice if it could be the case for the other amies :s
I think it will be.
Necrons seem to be in the game now with all their units fairly viable depending on build.
@@patrickhuffman9632 Necrons are much better than they were, but they have lots of very mediocre units still
@@valaquenta220 lots is a gross overstatement
@@patrickhuffman9632 The Canoptek Reanimator wants to say hello
Maybe even the Lunchguard
I'm going to be running 3 Redemptors with a Master of the Forge babysitter, using Wisdom of the Ancients every turn for rerolls. They're just absolutely fantastic and I'm really happy I bought 3 when they first came out
Sanguinary Guard went down 4 points pr model. Now they were over costed before but now they get 3 attacks base. -1 To hit them in melee! Angelus Boltguns are 18 inches! up from 12! Encarmine weapons are FREE! AMAZING!
Video coming tomorrow :D
@@auspextactics oh no, you’ve exposed us 😂
My lad just started a BA army and they are his favourites
@@karatecrass101 Tell him from me: Welcome Brother!
I started my BA collection about three months ago by buying another guy's models that he never used cause he plays Templars (poor man). Added the Start Collecting Box. So, got some Tacs, Lemartes, Librarian Dreadnought, Death Company, a Rhino, Terminator Captain... and a full unit of Sanguinary Guard with an Ancient. Oh sweet Sanguinius, those Sanguinary Guard. Pair them with the Terminator Captain as the Warlord, drop them in, murder the enemy backfield. The Sang Guard alone have guaranteed I will never, ever want to try another Chapter.
I still don't understand how its not possible to put Primaris in droppods. Just make it more expensive so I get my precious STEEHL REEIN back
GW wants you to buy new models to transport them obviously. Can't have you using your old models, that doesn't make them any money!
@@TNTLotLP then tell GW I don't own any drop pods and when primaris can get in them I'll buy 3 😁
@Gareth *looks at all the new kit primaris get* i don't think they care about STCs anymore.
besides in the horus heresy we see titan sized drop pods
@Gareth Lore wise they're barely bigger on average than a first born marine and there are plenty of first borns out there who are bigger than the average Primaris, Tyberos for example.
@Gareth Well there is Dreadnought Drop Pod
The eradicator's "total obliteration" rule shoud be a strategem. A strategem that would be available to all primaris gravis units - increasing in cp cost for larger units
And tier Erridicators will be renamed to tier Inceptors/Erridicators
Eradicators are too cheap and far better than equivalent units in other factions
@Nielsen heavy intercessor spam would be a new meta.
Eradicator tier had me rolling bro. They're going to need a fairly large points hike to tone them down, as the double shots is really overpowered.
Cheers Auspex - slowly building and painting my first SM army and your vids are extremely helpful :)
You are underrated mister Auspex..
My favourite Tier Eradicator unit is the Chaos Squat Eradicator
My eradicator fix.
Increase range to 30" melta with D6+2 damage at 15"
Lose shoots twice rule.
Increaase to 150pts per unit.
Would you consider a short update on your thoughts on this now? I wonder how many units would have moved up or down the rungs
I normally am always onboard with your assessment of units, but I feel whirlwinds have been undersold here (purely because the stratagem for them to force an enemy to fight last is REALLY good). Tier 2 in my book for the stratagem alone. The actual damage output is awful but the utility is excellent. #JudiciarInBrickForm
Utility definitely needs to be taken into account here.
Maybe Lower Tier 2. I think it's similar to the Drop Pod in that respect--certain space marine chapters will love them--most will probably hard pass.
But I think that's why he did Tier 3 / 2 Lower / 2 Upper / 1 / [Redacted]. Tier 4 has usually been unplayable garbage, and as you said--the WW has some fringe uses. Tier 3 is inefficient, but not worthless.
I agree with the Whirlwinds - there is a stratagem that lets them fire twice.
What do you think of the new 'outflank' rules for scouts/scout bikes/land speeder storms effectively giving them Turn 1 strategic reserves for free? I've not heard much mentioned about it when scouts are discussed.
I'm just wondering when I'll ever have 585 spare points to use my 3-man Devastator Centurions & Land Raider ever again (300pts for the Centurions with Heavy Bolter + Hurricane Bolter, 70pts base plus 15x2 for loadout, then 285pts for the Land Raider), that Land Raider is my 4th & last transportation vehicle... I need more transports
Why not run grav cannons, which is much better and cheaper with that ap-3
@@Michael-og7js 1) already glued & painted
2) I wanted something dedicated to anti-light Infantry weapons, ie: mass volume of "More Dakka", which they do & it hilarious when they delete something in 1 turn
3) Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic, more a bonus but it has helped me
I found this very useful for planning future competitive lists, My only thought is Scout bikes, yes on paper they dont look as good as SM bikes but the few times i have fielded them i have had some good returns point for point... 5pts less than bikers ,...move 16" plus turbo boost 6" Shotguns (great when they advance and always a little extra fire power) Combat blades AND bolt pistols, they are good all rounders great for targeting light infantry and grabbing objectives early on. Not saying they are better than SM bikers but in smaller point games i am glad to have the slightly cheaper option there......i use mine in my carcharodons, which i run usually as white scar successors .
Scouts with snipers are incredibly powerful if starting outside of their own range. Seriously. If they are allowed to run to cover, then fire from cover for the rest of the game, because of their range and difficulty to hit due to their cloaks.
Love the tier list, especially the last one, on point as always :))
Couldn't resist a Patreon sub after this, keep up the good work!
Putting dreadnoughts so low is very brave and controversial.
Two things Blood Angels Assault marines are on a whole other level of nasty and they are fast attack a slot for most marine lists that is rather empty and while vanguards are in the most competitive slot for marines that being elite
I don't know if it makes any substantial difference to their respective ratings, but basic Landspeeders pair well with Whirlwinds due to the former's special rule giving the WW +1 to hit rolls against a visible target within 18" of the speeder. Makes the Whirlwind's damage output slightly more reliable, and cancels out the benefit of Dense Cover.
Reviers are my personal favorite units. Bummer they aren't better on tablet top.
I’m including 10 in the army I’m building
@@joelhenry2527 Like a BOSS!
@Gareth Korn-iest*?
Note, this is all tournament play. If you play friendlies, you can make some pretty cool builds with them surrounding their leadership abilities. That and as white-scars they are absolutely terrifying with their AP-1 D2 combat knifes in turn 3.
Deepstriking reivers with knives can be extremely fun to slash up backline troops or artillery, especially with any buffs (librarians, reserve leuitenant etc.)
Now that dreads can have either rites of battle or tactical precision for 1CP, The captain/lieutenant combo is a lot less tempting. I find myself choosing the "secondary" HQs like chaplains and libbys. The former being very powerful in 9th.
The whirlwind is an auto include in assault armies like BA. 1 CP to ensure a unit can't interrupt in the fight phase.
Sighs...
i have like 3 land raiders still in their boxes...
a drop pod on its way ...
and 2 units of assault marines and scouts ...
the only thing i painted so far are the assault marines :p fml
Unless you're playing in tournaments, you can make that work.
I just bought a repulsor exe and a repulsor to see them both get gutted
Have we had a cool Eradicator character in any of the Black Library novels yet?
Maybe Jurgen can be gifted an Eradicator gun in a new Caiaphas Cain novel?
"Somehow, I still don't know how he did it, but somehow Jurgen had found a set of power armor that fit him. With a backpack for his new Eradicator gun too. Of course, the inside of the suit smelled like an Ork latrine and when the seals popped open to let him out the backdraft had made a cogboy vomit. Also, I'm pretty sure he figured out how to play the contents of a couple pornoslates on the helmet's heads-up display. But still, there was nothing like shiny power armor when I needed something between me and an enemy gun bigger than I was."
@@Nukem9999 I'd buy that book. 👍
I personally think Contemptors should be in the upper tier2. They are quite a bit stronger than in 8th since they don't get bracketed anymore and having the duty eternal rule build in alongside a 5++ save is really nice.
well, i do like mine, but he also lost the +2 to hit.
With AP-3, the difference between 5++ and 6+ and 6+++ is almost negilgable vs. D1 weapons. That plus 2+ to hit *and* a lower price tag make the Venerable boi a clear winner to me. Yes, yes, eradicatros blablabla. People I play with are humane, ok?
Iron Hands are gonna love them now that they're at 9W and can be protected with Look Out, Sir.
Despite marines getting all the love ever, I am pleased to know that I may never need to see a hideous scout model ever again
Is it the faces?
@@oliverp3545 I built ten of them and they are a hassle to build. That was the ones with camo cloaks and snipers. The head joint isn't even a joint, more like a flat area that doesn't line up with the heads.
@@markhohenbrink5230 yikes that sounds horrible.
Did you have to roughen the surface in order to get it glued on?
@@oliverp3545 damn near, thing was basically welded together after I was frustrated enough
@@markhohenbrink5230 I’ve got 5 and I found them the easiest to build an paint.just do the faces separately
I laughed so hard at tier eradicator
TIER A? TIER S?
*Nahhh there is TIER ERADICATOR*
A unit in a power tier all its own. Good description.
What would you say is the best Primaris space marine unit out of the hellblasters,assault and tactical
I can’t believe the Repulsor Executioner’s Heavy Laser Destroyer was nerfed in the new edition. I’m now regretting not using the plasma weaponry.
Veteran Intercessors belong in Tier 3, IMHO. There's no point to taking them over Vanguard or regular Intercessors. They are worse melee units than Vanguard Vets, and only gain 1 no S/AP attack over regular Intercessors while losing ObSec. The same arguments you applied to Assault Marines apply to them. It looks like you may have mistakenly ranked them as if they were Troops rather than Elites.
I'd agree with moving Drop Pods to Tier 2. They're unimpressive on their own, but the contents you can put into them have improved significantly.
I would move the Ironclad and Contemptor to high Tier 2. Both are defensively comparable to the Venerable Dread. The Contemptor adds movement, which can be key in 9th. The Ironclad is the best of the bunch for a melee dread.
I would drop the Firestrike and Eliminators to low Tier 2. Firestrike's very low movement is going to make it hard for it to find targets. Eliminators are still decent, but losing the ignore line of sight shots and the increased amount of terrain blocking line of sight knocks them down a peg.
I feel like the hammerfall would be better if it could do an orbital drop like a drop pod. Also, being unmanned, surely it's a good candidate for a rod from god, landing ON infantry and crushing them beneath it's great weight and then opening fire
Most of the things i picked out for my black templars in top tier feelsgoodman, i thought they seemed good on paper
Gonna have to disagree with you on that scout pick. They take up an elite slot, effectively apply no damage without major points investment and if you want a infiltrator you can just take....Infiltrators or Incursors. They do have outflank though, so the ONE use they have is to suicide drive for objective activations in risky areas of the board. Their sniper rifles got buffed though which is weird, still bad though.
Bikes squads can include an attack bike to boost the squads damage output and while protecting the melta on it. Those squads can also take two special weapons which really boost their damage output for 30 points. I'd put them roughly in line with attack bikes.
I feel that tactical squads are on par with Intercessors if upgraded correctly. Their role is either close or mid range fire support for front line units like blade Guards or Assault Intercessors. Both will struggle with hard targets (high wounds high toughness) but when supported by a melta tactical squad they can effectively handle such a threat up close. They also get 10 point grav cannons which are stupid points efficient when fighting marines.
Furthermore the tactical squad goes from being a fire support unit to a melee tank hunter when engaging vehicles with their access to the melta bomb stratagem. Throw a heavy bolter in that squad and they can deal 3d3 mortal wounds a turn to a vehicle for 2 CP, that's pretty spicy.
Gotta agree, I think everyone is so abituated to think of intercessors as better tacticals that they forget tee real strength of tac squads- versatility. Maybe tacs are worse than primaris, but they can be put either in cheaper transports, which can transport more than impulsors, in transports with a reasonable firepower, or even in drop pods, if you so wanted. And theirs hooting is worse than intercessors', but with the points difference you can chuck a heavy bolter or a grav cannon in the squad, heavily influencing it. Intercessors may be better as pure battle line, but tacticals can get geared up to support whatever role your battle line is missing, while still filling battalions and retaining obsec.
Almost all vehicles ending the low tier is the issue of the current codex (aside from Eradicators being pure cheese). I get that they want to avoid the Iron Hands situations with 3 RepEx and 3 Redemptor Dreads would be pretty much invincible, but I think the pendulum swung a little bit too far to the other side.
I ran 6 eradicators with vulkan and chapter ancient yesterday at 3 round event they killed 2400 points worth of models in all 3 rounds.
If banning was a thing with Warhammer tournaments then they'd get whacked with the ban hammer.
@@oliverp3545 they killed that many points the whole day. Not each round. After rereading post I it sounded like I could have said either. They’re good but I expect them to be toned down at some point.
Oh, ok.
Is there still a way to use a repulsor (for a 1000p list) ? I just like the model and want to build a list that runs it.
I don't think Assaultintercessors quite warrent A, The potential is there but without a reliable delivery system they tend to flounder trying to cross the board
Are you insinuating that an Impulsor isn't a reliable delivery system?
Insinuating?, No, Outright saying it, 5 without any support is not an effective unit and adding more means more imps and then a dedicated imp to transport the support, The cost is beyond prohibitive to make it work and it falls far short of the myriad of options the codex already has for effective melee
I have been having great success with Ironclad dreads with the hurricane bolter, 2 hunter killers, and chain fist setup. It comes in pretty low on points, and I think the T8 from T7 makes it much more durable. The auto D6 vs vehicles is a good bonus.
I used mine in a Stormraven since 8th and it is the one unit, that never disappoints. Once killed 4 Allarus in one round of combat. I lovingly call it "Herrmann" for all the manly aspirations in it (Usually just play gunlines, it is the exception), which is a german combination of "Mister" and "Man". I like to keep it a tad crazy, makes life more bearable :p.
Where would you put including imperial agents? Also i think you are underestimating the usefullnes of being a flyer for the stormhawk and talon. And having a minus 1 to hit for most units.
stormtalon it the best flyer for point to point, they can hover, deny enemy objective or even kill a character in 1st turn... i still running 2 stormtalon in my army though...
You forgot about Servitors... There soooooo good...
The Eradicators are the reason nobody is taking tank heavy armies at the moment, I lost 3 imperial knights in a single turn from 3 units of Eradicators just walking on from reserve and wiping them out, it was about 1500 points just deleted with nothing I could do about it, played the same opponent half a dozen times and it was pretty much the same result every game.
I think Devastators are better than Hellblasters, but especially Long Fangs, who can reroll hit rolls of 1 (against a specific target) and have the ability to tack on a terminator for a 4++. Neither of which the Hellblasters get, they also have more shots with the same strength and AP, except heavy plasma, which had one more strength and AP, but with even less shots.
Sadly, I'm pretty sure Long Fangs lost the reroll 1's thing. They are basically just Devastators with a funny name now. They can, however, take more heavy weapons in a squad and can take a WGPL with Cyclone Launcher for the lolz.
@@ZergSmasher yeah, though I reckon they'll get them back with the Codex Supplement.
Personally I'd rank the whirlwind a bit higher. The damage output is not spectacular, but it is the only way to access the excellent Suppressive Fire stratagem, which can be very powerful. I also feel you're a bit too generous to scouts. I dont see many people taking them, even situationally. Infiltrators and Incursors do their job better, and are Troops choices. You do pay more for them of course, but they are also more than twice as durable with their 2 wounds and their power armor.
I'd have probably rated the vernerable dread a bit higher than tier 2. The loadout options are good with 2+ BS, but also they are so cheap. I can see these being able to deal with a few times their pts cost comfortably in a game and also very easy to hide in turn 1 in case you don't get first turn.
Poor Repulsor :( it was fun dropping a squad off on top ov a building!
Why would you run normal intercessors when tactical squads actually outgun them once upgraded with heavy and special weapons? Tac marines are just as durable now and far more flexible
For objective camping, I think tacs are actually much better than intercessors, as you said, because they can be kitted out to shoot better without spending any more points. For battle line though I can see the argument, as intercessors have access to transhuman and fight better, so they can bully objectives away from enemy troops. Even then, for both scenarios you have to take into account transports and stratagems... I think the two squad are actually quite balanced between them, it's just that most people overlook tacticals in favor of intercessors, because they have been doing that for the past few years
Correct me if I am wrong but most good strategems work for Primaris units only (heard from friend). SO GW is pushing hard towards only Primaris.
@@dariuszmajecki it depends on what you mean by "good", and what you want them to do.
Intercessors with auto bolt rifles outshoot tac marines with weapon upgrades point for point, can hold their own in melee, and have access to some strategems that can double their bolter damage or make them super hard to kill.
@@Taurox220 it depends on the target, but if you're talking about objective camping I hardly believe intercessors outshoot tacticals. 5 more shoots at str4 ap 0 don't compare pretty well to 3 s5 ap2 (in the first turn) D2 attacks, with highger range, whether the target is a marine or an aggressor equivalent. And while yes, intercessors do have access to better stratagems, you're sinking a lot of command points on an objective camping unit. And tacticals can actually outmelee them if you kit out the seargent with LCs. So tacticals, for the same price, can outshoot or outmelee intercessors, depending on how you spend the points, plus have access to a wider variety of, IMHO, better transports. And to add to this, if you spend a little more points, you can equip them with either missile launchers, which are a good flexible choice, or lascannons, to have some good AT fire support. You can even give them grav cannons, for lower range but better AI firepower.
I just bought my first wh40k SM units today without checking if they're good or not, hopefully this video won't make me cry
I didn’t see Eradicators- I guess those are S-Tier and off the charts
scouts can get out of a land speeder storm after it moves? interesting
Yep - it how has the same 'assault vehicle' rule as the Impulsor
Question for you sir. Except for the Ravenwing, which chapter can take an Apothecary who can keep pace with the Invader ATV? If you are keeping the ATV in your back field you are not getting the most of it. So the scenario of an Apothecary returning one back to life is going to be very very rare.
Can't you give a jump pack to an apothecary? I'm asking because I was thinking the same, and that seemed the answer
Blood Angels Sanguinary Priests
I'm playing primaris only. Will put the primaris apothecary (as chief and warlord) into an impulsor with 5 bladeguard to keep pace with the atv squad. That way I can heal atv and bladeguards and bring back either an 8wound or 3wound model
@@edoardoluppi6455 Except for the BA Sanguianary...no. No chapter can out a jump on an Apothecary. Rhino or Impulsor?
For eradicators, what about their alternative weapons (which have not yet been release) such as multi-melta (+20 points) and heavy melta-rifle (cost not listed on the Munitorium Field Manual). Do you favor any of those weapons for the cost upgrade if any??
I think the multi melta is a pretty decent option :)
Land Raiders need to be able to transport Primaris marines if for nothing else to stop my headache.
Right, if they had just FAQd Land Raider types and Drop Pods to carry 3 of any type of Primaris... Maybe people would have ever so slightly taken to them a bit better. Instead of just seeing a grab for their money with no upside while being forced to wait for their inevitable tanks. Also kinda lent to the idea of Primaris replacing true born. Nevermind all the giant super heavy tanks that should also have been able to take them.
It feels really silly how Primaris being a bit bigger means they cant be in these vehicles.
Keep in mind that their average height is simply just the higher end of what Firstborns can achieve and arent too huge in comparison.
So you could make a case that you just are only able to fit less of them in but outright is ridiculous and honestly low effort.
Like with Craftworlds you can have any infantry go into vehicles that allow it but Wraith Constructs are worth two normal ones, which makes sense, so why not just do the same with Primaris.
I mean a basic Land Raider can take a 3-man Centurion squad so it should be able to hold a few Primaris right?
@@TITAN_101 exactly, if it's the case that you can fit 3 centurions in a vehicle then why not your standard Firstborn, because I'm pretty sure Centurions are very wide bois next to Primaris Marines, so if you can fit 3 Centurions then 3 Primaris Marines should easily be able to fit comfortably in it.
They needed a points drop, more wounds and/or an invuln. They're just dead to eradicators now. Really sad that such an iconic SM vehicle has never really been viable :(
Can you do a overview of black templars with the new codex?
I needed this to help my son (9). We got the command edition and the Necron side of that set is waaaaaaay stronger. Knowing what to expand into will be great.
Doesn't seem to make sense from a design standpoint that the only way to take advantage of heavy weapons in the devastator doctrine during turn 1 has to involve putting them on platforms that are ranked lowest tier such as flyers, in drop pods, and the only indirect firepower platforms in the codex. Now that the Iron Hands OP situation has been dealt with, why they did not allow the dev doctrine to be used optionally in the second round is beyond comprehension.
Is there a type of Terminator that is better than others? Is there a certain loadout I should use with my terminators?
Have to disagree with tier 3 for whirlwinds. Non LoS firing plus the supression fire strat is super valuable for white scars and their successors. Its 1cp to do the Judiciar's ability, but better.
I have to disagree with some of the teir 3 tanks, especially the vindicator and stalker. T8, 2+ save on the vindicator, both with great guns and no penalty to shoot from moving.
Sure the randomness of the vindicators shots and damage is annoying but blast has helped and its a prime target for cp reroll. Stalkers are now better anti-air than ever before while also being effective against everything else now they have no negatives to shooting at ground targets.
Even the predators are cheap ways to get a mobile, resilient fire platform for better damage output than a devastator squad at similar cost.
I agree you that the eradikators are very strong, once they have shott my necron triachstalker in a single phase
I knew from the start that there would be a separate tier for the eradicators
Loved the joke of the highest tier 😁
How Eradicators still haven't been adjusted in points is beyond me, GW please.
Wait until the kits go on sale. Once GW's made a grip on the kits they'll adjust them.
Plasma inceptors are easily a top-tier unit. Probably even better than eradicators.
Seeing Terminators go from nearly useless to a staple in comp lists is weird
Tell me about it. My Dark Angels are really happy to bring the bone-colored boys now, especially since they get free Transhuman Physiology!
@@ZergSmasher DA here too! Havent gotten to play my first game, but I'm super happy to see my entire list will be viable (started with splitting a Dark Vengeance set)
I'm already polishing up a couple squads of wolf guard termies, can't wait to see how they perform. Just a shame they nerfed arjac...
I’m confused at around 9mins he mentions using raven Gaurd stratagem for assault centurion insertion, are the raven gaurd stratagems in the codex supplement still valid? I assumed it was now obsolete with release of the new codex, or can we still use it? Would really appreciate it if someone knows, can’t find a list on GW of what and what isn’t valid any more.
Yeah, the Raven Guard supplement is still fully valid.
@@auspextactics thanks!
@@lordofhykra6150 This page has all the latest errata (rules changes/updates) for 9th edition.
www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/
At the top, just tab over to the 40K section and find the codex or supplement you're interested in. Hope this helps.
as a Black templar player 2 wound crusaders and sword brethren is tastey.
I think scouts are too high. They don’t get Obsec and there’s zero reason to take them when you have to lose an elite choice. I also think that Assault Int. Are a tier too high; they’re a combination of blade guard vets and regular intercessors, but do both things worse.
Feeling really frustrated with Space Marine delivery systems. Transports are too tangled and the dedicated Primaris vs. non is making a mess of it. New index definitely got rid of some cheese, but the new marine meta feels like a slow trudge across the board while hoping transhuman physiology keeps you alive. For that reason, I’d rank the assault Intercessors lower.
Currently I'm not using eradicators because I find them silly, and I like to have friends. I'd be happy with a nerf. Aside from that, and the ATV being res-able, I really like what they've done with this codex. I like me some terms and dreads, so I'm happy :D
Preds are very effective cheap tanks no rerolls needed quite frankly since at their cost you can afford to field multiple ones for the same price as one gladiator
As a Dangels player I really think that Eradictors should be nerfed. Really. It’s not fun to play with or against.
They are bad for the game and invalidate too many other options
@@Taurox220 they are basically Salamenders all over again but this time every chapter can take them and just pew pew every unit in the game without problem. Please GW, use the Nerfhammer on them asap
redeemer carrying relic termis or company vets with combi flamers and storm shields is gonna be my go to
I wish GW would give more love to the tanks, at least the first born tanks by giving them re rolls back or special rules depending on the chapter, cause they’re some of the coolest models in the army
many meltas, much eradication, so balanced, wow
Suppressors are a true glass cannon unit
Vet intercessors aren't troops. That should be considered... no obsec
Sternguard vétéran for me is a tier one yes they dont have obj sec but with a Warlord trait it fix . And ap-3 turn 2 omg most unit lose theyre armor save
Outriders are easily top tier, so efficient for points.
thank you!
What about the tactical marines
The fall of the Repulsor Executioner is so sad to me. A cool model, an actually strong tank and boom, straight in the garbage.
why didnt you just do 4 teirs?
*5 tiers.
They said I was mad for fielding 10 attack bikes... WHO IS LAUGHING NOW HUH?! From bottom tier to tier 1 baby thats what we've been waiting for, thats what its all about. Ye olde biker boyos reign suprem.
I don't get the hate for Reivers.
No, they aren't the best unit, definitely not top tier.
But with bolt pistols and combat knives, they have the same durability as Assault Intercessors, and as many attacks (albeit lacking the AP-1), they are cheaper, and Intercessors are top tier.
With Bolt Carbines, they compare to Autoboltrifle Intercessors, granted with 1 less shot per model, though again cheaper, and same durability.
Further benefits the Intercessors don't get,
The terror troops ability being changed to - 2 makes a real difference, it means that if they can kill a single model in combined shooting/melee (which is not unlikely) they will have a good 1 in 3 chance of forcing the target unit (I'm Assuming a leadership of 8,which is common across the meta) to fail morale, leading to more models lost. That 1 in 3 goes up if you kill more than 1 model in the unit - again, not unlikely.
This makes them great at taking out hordes.
Also the terror troops strategems essentially nullifies Obsec in enemy troops, and nullifies any actions - a great way of stopping enemies from scoring VP (which is the point of the game).
Also shock Grenades, also only 2 points for a deepstrike (grav chutes), or outflank and move over vertical obstacles, which makes them great for hiding out of LOS then springing on targets.
Not a direct-damage-output unit, but indirect horde buster, and point scoring unit (or rather, point denial, which equates to the same thing).
Better than bottom tier.
Can apothecaries take terminator armor?
Not in the core codex, no, but Grey Knights and Dark Angels have terminator apothecaries in some of their termintator squads.
Errmm Stalkers are brilliant, my Imperial Fist I always run 2, and now they have simply got better with loosing the -1 to hit penalty for firing a heavy weapon from a vehicle, and -1 for shooting a non-flyer model. 6 autocannon shots is fantastic especially with Imp Fists super doctrine turn one :)
Veteran intercessors are not troops anymore ...