Do NOT Buy Bavaria - Ep 230 - Lady K Sailing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มิ.ย. 2024
- This week we talk about the story of Bavaria Sailboats and cover their bankruptcy, sailboat quality issues with Bavaria boats, and how Bavaria USA went out of business after Bavaria Yachts filed for insolvency.
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I have run a charter company for the past 25 years and bought a Bavaria 44 back in 2002 (new). More than 20 years and 75,000 miles later it is still going strong, despite the best efforts of some customers, and is already 60% booked for next year!
To be honest, having owned over a dozen different yachts from different manufacturers over the past 25 years, ranging from Hallberg Rassy and Tartan to Jeanneau and Feeling, and managed a good few more too, the Bavaria has been the most reliable of the boats we have had in our fleet.
Teach me your ways!
Wow. Was I ever lucky that I did not sink in my Bavaria during my trips to the Azores, Iceland, and the Faroe and Shetland Islands. ("Don't buy a Bavaria" because you don't like the color of the interior panelling. Really?)
Sorry if Patrick stands by the Bavaria that is enough for me. I am not a sailor but have watched all of Patrick’s videos .
I really enjoy your critics on building quality and design. As an sailboat owner, I am very concerned about plexiglass ( or lexan or polycarbonate) integration in the hull or even in the coachroof. These plastics loose strength over time and are prone to crazing . I had to replace 8’ long pieces on the coachroof of a sailboat and they are a nightmare. In short, I don’t trust them in a hull and much prefer the « clamped » windows on the coachroof. What is your opinion on this?
@patricklaine6958 I might be wrong, but I think Americans are somewhat more conservative in boat designs than us Europeans. There is also much too much snobbery against Bavarias, Hanses, Beneteaus and Dufours. They've really made sailing affordable and accessible to many people. The proof is in the pudding, can you safely sail the boat from A to B? and can others?
In which year was built your boat?
this doesnt seem to be his main argument in the video. he was mostly concerned that you could possibly get less support from a bankrupt company. he argues that a jeanneau offers similar quality at similar price but with likely better support.
Bavarias are big over here in Europe. In fact, I owned a Bavaria 46 (2018) and can not confirm any of the problems.. I was able to sell it at a good price as well. Again, they are pretty abundant in Europe. The bankruptcy story is sad. But I think part of the reason was that it went from a family business to a holding company and they did a couple of bad decisions.
They didn't do bad decisions, they had to pay interest and ROI for a total of more than 1 billion Euros. Everybody in the industry knew this was impossible. The buying price was rediculous. At the end the German formerly Dresdner bank lost millions of Euros and guess who paid for it? And guess who is not in jail? Yes, the bankers.
Yes right, this boat is everywhere in Europe, literally the only boat I see
This is quite a hatchet job mate!
I spent quite a few years as a yacht broker and can honestly say that most production yachts have issues, albeit not bankruptcy issues. I can site plenty of serious structural and design problems that I've encountered with Beneteau, Lagoon, Catalina, Jeanneau, Hanse and others...
Unlike you I prefer the light laminates used on the interiors, since older production yachts formerly sported mahogany veneer, often highly polished, which created a very dark environment not dissimilar to a coffin.
Bavaria had a bad name in the 90's when a racing crew in Europe lost their keel, which resulted in a sinking and loss of life. This happened on one particular model only, but all Bavaria's were tainted for a while resulting in sizeable discounts in the 2nd hand market. I delivered a 1990 something Bavaria 40 for 9 days around the southern coast of Australia (Roaring 40's territory) and uncharacteristically took out extra life insurance beforehand. The yacht was pretty noisey below and some doors on some tacks became a bit hard to open, but other than that I was pleasantly impressed by the speed and comfort of the yacht. The trip was uneventful I'm happy to report...
My point here is that if you are going to buy any boat, and especially a modern production boat, it is essential that you do your homework first and find a good marine surveyor who can spot major structural issues. There are hidden gems out there, often at discount prices, which are perfectly sound and represent good value.
Bavaria is no exception...
Absolutely agree, this seems to be more of an issue with bad business decisions on behalf of the USA dealer than Bavaria itself, 2% is a ludicrously small sum to cover warranty claims especially in a country that loves litigation. I love refurbishing the interiors of older Bavaria's as part of my job, they are so well made and assembled with a logic that makes them one of the easiest brands to refit.
It's usually not the yacht, rather how the owner cared for the yacht from the day it sailed from the origin. It's expensive to buy and even more expensive to own if done properly.
I agree. I have seen a lot of your videos, but this felt totally Biased.
1 USA B issues, that's business problems and bad management, nothing to do with the boats
2 Problems happen in all boats; there's not one piece of evidence of this on the video; there's not even a photo or a report from B USA saying that a brand new boat has a leak.
3 You can't imagine anyone mistaking this for pretty. That's a bit egocentric; a lot of people do find Bavaria beautiful and want to have one above all.
4 Ugly Design: That's a bit personal, but if you take a look at the most luxurious boats, you will see minimalist design, clean lines, and light!
5 The problem for the boat is competition?
I did not find in this video a real valid fact for not buying a Bavaria
@@MrNiceGuy442
Spot on!
Mr. Lady K looks like he has an axe to grind with Bavaria for some reason, and offered nothing but unsubstantiated opinions. I also can't quite work out why he positions himself as an expert...?
I have delivered and sold my share of Bavaria's over the years and disagree that they are better or worse than any other yacht that is built to a price, ie. all production yachts (except Swan and Oyster).
They all cut quality corners on fixtures, finishes and fittings, but none are foolish enough to produce a flawed and unsound hull or rig.
Any yacht can take you anywhere and most have with some luck on their side, but in truth these yachts are designed and built for coastal and harbour sailing, which is where the new yacht market is. Most people who can afford a new yacht nowadays are time poor and chartering, weekend, and holiday sailing is what these boats are produced to do; and here they excel.
Anyone who has spent time at sea in one can instantly recognise that they are meant to be fast for weekend racing, and spacious for comfort and entertaining at anchor.
Because of this most are way too twitchy and are very uncomfortable at sea. Their huge volume and shortage of grab rails makes them downright dangerous in big conditions, when trying to move about the cabin and cockpit. The older ones were generally better in this regard...
@@zzzsydneyhom1379 no dude. 😂. It looks like you have some Bavarias to sell and now that this video is out you’re in panic mode 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
We live on a Bavaria 1997 and although it was a pre-series test boat... the quality is outstanding. We found out that they almost bankrupted. Our boat was taken by a director instead of payment..then they just escaped the situation. The boat has a lot of real wood and high-quality laminates that even today look near new. In later years the production went up and quality went down at the same pace. But having said that we meet many Bavaria owners around the world and 99 out of 100 are very happy. Practical, liveable, and more space than in other brands are just a few of the positives. Easy to reach most technical parts.. But yeah things break. in our case so far its other brand stuff that breaks, not anything Bavaria produced. Hence your title comes across as shaming. We hear about oysters losing keels, Hunters, and Lagoons with problems... You don't say don't buy any if these. Like the lagoon 450 you just made a video about. As for BUSA and its issues. I am an insurance & investment professional and I hear about the 2% Bavaria paid for repairs and trouble-solving. I see that % as extremely low. But for that price the dealer may have been able to purchase "builders insurance'" IN case that was not possible they should have rejected the offer. And in hindsight, it was not realistic. Most boat owners know that the first year after purchase you run into issues. Its hard to understand from your video whether these where normal issues or real production failures. A manager than saying the quality needs to go up again, that, frankly does not mean anything. Given we can still cal Bavaria for support after all tthese years and get either amn advice or they help arrange the part.... Do buy one if you like them, they are great boats, especially the older types.
As a Bavaria owner I clicked the link when I saw the title. There is nothing here that is an actual argument that suggests Bavaria has bad quality. So it’s simply clickbait. BUSA seems to be trying to put the blame on the brand. Exactly what you would expect from a company that went bankrupt. Instead of giving information of faulty Bavaria models, the video is trying to create a fog of doubt around the brand. Why? Two reasons. One is the clicks. The other one is that the video maker doesn’t know much about Bavaria boats. Anyway, Bavaria is no different than any other middle class boats.. They all copy from each other. Follow the same trends etc. Bavaria is not worse or better than Beneteau. Period.
So what actually were the problems with the bavarias
We love our 2008 Bavaria 44 Vision. We do not recognize anything you tell in this episode. We sailed over 20.000 miles including an Atlantic crossing. Still looks like new.
I´ve never met anyone who was dissatisfied with their Bavaria. I think Bavaria got a undeserved bad reputation. «Hand built» does not always mean higher quality, and line-produced in a bigger factory does not mean lower quality.
I don't have any stake in Bavaria, but this video sounds a bit petty. It was not a very useful video to watch.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894It may have been written with another objective in mind.....ever thought that.
I recently owned a Bavaria 38 2008 crusier model. I have to say that the interior is what sold me. Back then it was done in light African Mahagony with well venlated cabinets. I never had any major issues but did replace the exhaust elbow with a SS one purchased from England for under $200. Also replaced a heater element in the hot water heater. It was a very solid boat and although I only owned it for 2 years (I was relocated to Japan) it really held up well. I had Catalina owners looking envious at the boat. The previous owner did upgrade the mainsheet blocks and add an arch. This one came with the 6.5ft keel which sailed extreemly well. I am a former racer on the Cheapeke and owned several Stiletto (23&30) catamarans and this boat sailed well. The only worry I had was the electrical panel which was very custom to Bavaria. It used relays behind the pannel on a PCB. To me it made something more complex than it really needed to be but I never had any failures (just worry). I also made sure I had extra relays on hand just in case. All other equipment was just like every other boat. A mixture of Harken/Selden/Raymarine. After owning for 2 years I sold the boat at the same price I purchased the boat. I would buy it all over again!
Would you say the boat is solid enough for blue water sailing? Would you have felt comfortable crossing the Atlantic in her? Thanks!
@@1badsteed sure. I would keep to the route and most likely sleep on the settee at midship off watch. Also I may have removed the table altogether. But the boat felt solid in heavy chop. Sailed really well for me (but I come from racing heritage so able to fine tune).
This is the second of your videos in which you praise Jeanneau. I've been to a good number of Annapolis boat shows. Every single time I get on a Jeaneau, the creaking and aching of the floor panels below deck is so extreme, it's hilarious. I've also seen a Jeaneau at the Cleveland boat show some years ago that had a big fat gouge in the hull. And the dealer was seriously trying to sell me the thing like there was nothing to worry about. So, to make my point, I love the design features of the Jeaneaus as well. But I wouldn't buy one because the build quality is HIGHLY QUESTIONBLE.
just getting in to boats- I actually love the light timber look- what ever was the fascination of dark dull wood in a small cramped dark space!!!!
Hey LadyK!
My husband and I have watched you for a couple years, we actually refer to you as the professor now> True story.
We are living aboard our 2001 Bavaria 50', literally just island hopped from Florida all the way down to Great Inagua Bahamas with our crew of 7, myself the husband and our 5 kids!
Left Inagua and headed straight to Panama! 900NM and about 7.5 days at sea.
Day 2.5, rudder falls 5" holy crap. This is the biggest, gnarliest issue we had thus far. God willing the worst of it but, let's be real it never ends. Boat life.
We actually have been documenting our life on TH-cam as well, and this was episode 10 and 11 when this happened.
Regardless I wanted to chime in that we love our Bavaria so far .Living aboard for a year, and hoping to cross over to Pacific dreamland but one day at a time.
Currently in Panama. 5 cabin 3 heads. And the Volvo/penta knock on fiberglass she keeps going a little longer.
The in mast main Furling and the jib furler were super fancy and new to us! Some getting used to but pretty cool.
I will stop here. Haa.
just watched this episode, would love to see you back in the water! We find your content insightful and entertaining!
Keep going!!
All the best from Motherloadsailing!
Please learn to know what's "preventive and routine" maintenance! Whay did not mentioned! Because it didn't have been done! Why not mentioned the reason the rudder full of!
I have had a Bavaria 38 from 2004 and a 46 from 2007. Best boats ever and we sailed on the North Sea. Never ever had big costs or construction problems. Now we have a Multihull
Are there different models of Bavaria 38's from 2004? We are looking at some Bavaria 38's from 2003-2005 and love the looks and interiors. We are just concerned with the Blue Water sail-ability of these yachts. Thanks for any help!
Cannot agree with your opinion on Bavaria boats. In fact its a bit irresponsible to do a video like this without naming explicitly what were the problems the boats had. And which models had the problems. Bavarias built between 2010 and 2013 were very solid boats, the best built by them till now. In 2010 they launched new “Farr” boats trying to polish the brand that had experienced serious problems before, including boats losing keels. I crossed the Atlantic in one of these “Farr” boats without incident (the furniture you mentioned was intact at the end of the crossing, no noises, nothing - well better than my experience crossing with other brands). In 2014 they changed their boats again. Two wheels, redesigned the furniture, … etc. and a couple of years after that they start cutting costs … yes, their boats now are inferior to those made between 2010 and 2013, but never heard of sinking threatening defects like those found on the pre-2010 models.
I'm a little surprised here (in Europe) - as far as I've heard the Bavarias are the ones that get insurance deals for charter boats. While Sun Odyssey are the ones loosing their keels. Jeanneau's are leaking from their portlights, due to very bad design and finish. I'm not on the market for neither a Bavaria or a Jeanneau or even a Benneteau (same company) but to hear this other side of the story is very interesting and once again puts the perspective in another angle. How different the market in US and EU works and how many misunderstandings there are 🤷🏽♂️
Bavaria’s built in 2006 are really good. Good hulls, selden rig, Volvo engine is reliable, silent and cheap to run if you don’t mind servicing yourself. Get a real good boar for a bargain.
Agree; I have one -2006, 33 Cruiser - its solid and nice made - but also when I see later models (goes for Hanse and other brands as well) quality has gone down quite a bit..
@@thomashusfeldt Agree, purchasd a 33 cruiser in 2006, great build quality and solid interior. Best decision ever, end of season sale.
It's astonishing how very expensive new boats have so much problems while there are plenty 40-50 years old boats out there completely safe to sail.
We had a Bavaria 40 2001 which was solid as a rock and is still loved by its new owner. The hull work was vastly better than a friend's Beneteau whose flooring frame separated from the hull! He came over to our boat to see if Bavaria was the same, but ours was completely joined and sealed throughout. There is a lot of snobbery against Bavs because they gave the 'poorer classes' a chance to get out and into their 'elite sphere' of enjoyment.
The article has absolutely nothing to do with good research and serious journalism!
Most recently, Bavaria won the most prestigious award in Europe in 2023.
I have only had good experiences with boats from Bavaria myself!
Just bought a 1999 Bavaria Ocean. There is no such thing as a perfect yacht that ticks all the boxes, but this one is pretty damn close. She won't race, needs a fair bit of wind to move along, but we purchased for comfort. She's that in spades. She is a little chubby...but delightful. Built to Lloyd's specifications, Kevlar reinforced, solid wood - no laminate throughout, lead keel, well spec'd and sailed by a couple for 3 years in the med, across the Atlantic and throughout the Caribbean before we purchased it. Thats safe enough for us.
Apparently there were years that were not great, but we are thrilled.
Incidentally, we were looking for Najad or HR - both not really available on this side of the Atlantic, - I don't think our boat is quite that good, but pound for pound it is an incredible value. Again, we are thrilled.
....who wants to buy a contessa 32...😂
You should add that the Bavaria Ocean is a center cockpit boat. The Ocean series is known for very good quality. I have to friends that owns Hallberg Rassys, and even they say the Bavaria Ocean are good boats. And as you know, Hallberg Rassy owners rarely likes other boats than Hallberg Rassy. 🤣
Bavaria Yachts had their financial ups and downs, with two investors in the past decade. But I have never come across real quality issues as hard as you have described them in the lawsuit between BUSA and BAVARIA Yachting. It does sound to me like more of a "fight" between both of them.
Bavaria is super big in Charters in Europe, I have sailed them on three occasions and all were fine. I would see no issue at all going for a Bavaria, more the contrary. And referring to lookalikes to other brands, I guess that goes a little for the entire business. I see Bavaria a great quality at a very good cost. Would suggest them anytime.
For the next video, i recommend one on different hull types and the pro's/con's of each one. fiberglass, alum, steel. I agree, we should always do our due diligence and inspect rather than take someone's word or opinion on a particular boat.
And not just sailboats like I would like to hear about the company Bruno&stillman and why they went bankrupt
he did the videos on hull materials
@@connannbarbarin3033 oh ok. ive seen him talk about hulls on different episodes. I cant recall ever seeing a dedicated episode on hull materials. maybe i just havent been here long enough. thanks for the reply.
@@TheSchoolCircle0311 th-cam.com/video/wnWucl3EHKU/w-d-xo.html
In the Netherlands they are everywhere, older ones as well (20+), no major complaints, many newer and older models are in charter as well. They are as bad or good as any production boat from the past or present.
36.2 2005 gehad topkwaliteit ,alle onderdelen van moter tot windvaan topmerken.gemiddeld 110 dagen per jaar aan boord.geen grote problemen tegengekomen ❤😊na 7jaar verkocht in 1 uur😅
Droom verder en zou wel weer een boot willen.
Rustler 37 ❤de real sailor boat.
Helaas blijft het bij dromen.
Nogmaals voor de prijs was mijn bavaria top.😊
Man, 2018 was a hard year for boats. Shannon and Nauticat shut down and Bavaria declared bankruptcy...
I live in England and find your videos interestin and informative. With regard Bavaria's and their interior finishes personally I would rate the new ones up against the modern manufacturers
Any franchisee who negotiates a 2% discount on half million dollar yachts and agrees to pay for any repairs on a piece of equipment that has thousands of moving parts that can be notoriously expensive to fix quite frankly deserves to go out of business. 15 - 20% possibly, more like 25-30% plus possible caveats.
Glad i saw this video, THANK YOU!
Love the videos. For an upcoming one I'd love to see you talk about what boats would be good for different regions. I live on the west coast so getting some insight into good boats for cruising around the Salish Sea, or over to Alaska, Mexico, or Hawaii would be wonderful as I'm sure the wants/needs are different than for cruising the ICW or the Caribbean. Maybe extend that topic even further to places outside of the Americas, like the Mediterranean. What would you look for in a boat if you were mainly sailing in those places?
And here's another topic idea: if you were interested in buying a boat far away from you (maybe because it's cheaper, or you found the exact make and model you've been looking for), what are the pros and cons of doing so, and what are the various ways to get the boat back to where you live?
Thanks. Looking forward to the next episode!
Yes! West Coast Sailing to Hawaii , Alaska and San Francisco
Very interesting video for me right now. Owning a 2018 Nautitech Open 40 -- otherwise a wonderful performance sailing catamaran -- I'm just having (a) the hulls reconstructed with up to 10 layers of fiberglass & epoxy, where Nautitech/Bavaria just put a slab of cheap filler, and (b) closing holes in the bilge sumps (yes, holes of ~2 cm in diameter!) and reinforcing the 4 mm thin (yes, 4 mm!) bottoms of the sumps, which might lead to sinking in case a keel comes off (that's intended and that's why they are glued to the pontoons, which I totally accept). When the renovation is done in June, the boat will be in much better condition than ex factory. It took me more than half a year of huge troubles, discussions, involving lawyers and the CEOs of Bavaria and Nautitech, and of course a good amount of euros. Nautitech's assistance has been very limited, to say the least. They just try to keep cost down rather than admitting their fault and help get it out of the way. However, when the renovation is done in June, the boat will be in much better condition than ex factory. But I would have gladly avoided this experience
No word about the restart of Bavaria with the new C Series (esp. C38, C42, C46)? I charter a lot in Europe and if I can choose between a Jeanneau 410 and a Bavaria C42, I would definitely go for the Bavaria - much better finishing and quality and also the design and sailing feels better to me.
Love my 2018 Bavaria 34 Cruiser. Have had 4 Beneteaus. No difference in quality. I love the light interior. It doesn’t show nicks and bumps the way the dark finishes do. Beneteau sent people from France to refinish my 393 when the varnish failed. The electrical wiring looks like it was installed by engineers. Open the Beneteau panel and it looks like they threw the wires in. The boat sails great. First sailboat I have had that doesn’t have a weather helm problem that needs continuous sail adjustments.
I lobe my Bavaria 34 Cruiser from 2018 to . I sag always. She is like a Golf. Design ok. A lot of Space for the length. Much more better than the small Sun Odyssees and Beneteaus.
Interesting view from over the pond. Bavaria is a wonderful boat for sailing the baltic, the preferred sailing area of the germans...
For the next video do you think you could talk about best world cruisers under 40 feet? Hans Christian 33, Baba 35, West Sail 32 etc? Affordable boats that can take you anywhere on this blue planet 💙?
I owned 2 Bavarias- a 37 and 10 years later a 39 foot one between 1999 and 2022.
Swear to God I never had one problem: never: and I ve sailed the Med for 23 years.
I ve sold it because of my age and nothing else.
The agent for Malta where I was based was Mr Anthony Camilleri a keen yachtsman himself and found him ready to help day and night for advice.
In an other life I would buy again an other Bavaria!
Great value boats pre 2009 . Solid back then. Lots still used for charter and training
I love this series of videos. Ive been seeing a lot of boats on yachtworld from a brand "C&C" at very reasonable prices. Any chance you can do an episode on this brand? The price is enticing and they usually look pretty good, so now im wondering whats wrong with them
You mentioned quality issues with no specific examples and numbers. This doesn’t seem too professional.
On a separate note, speaking about $5M to enter the biggest market on the planet doesn’t seem a big investment considering the price of each single vessel.
Finally, the 2% mentioned is misleading. Dealers don’t get a total of 2% margin for selling a boat. They make much more.
The Mediterranean Sea is full of Bavaria very popular boats, most of the sailors are satisfied by those boats.
For sure they are not Del Pardo yachts, but they do the job...
Bavaria yachts used to be a producer of furniture, so I heard.
Bavaria is known as being discount boats, in the opposite end of Hallberg-Rassy, known to be some of the best built boats money can buy.
I almost finished this video but still the main motivation behind these opinions are quite badly missing. I’m glad there are alternative content makers as well.
Personally. as a person who grew up in a world of 70's brown mobile home wood veneer paneling. You know the stuff. You got an Aunt that did a basement in it. I kinda like the looks of the Bavaria's cabin. Looks clean, respectful but not flashy with just enough of a modern sifi twist to it.
Hi there Tim from Australia.
Thank you for you TH-cam channel, I have gained some knowledge thanks to you Tim, although all of my grandfathers on both sides of the family are merchant seaman, from the Netherlands and Germany.
I love to be on the water, specially deep blue offshore water, I actually own a Hans Christian here in Australia and have done ever since my grandfather passed this gorgeous and elegant lady to me, she is out on the hard for a full rebuild at the moment, not that she really needed a full overhaul of restoration, ( however you may ask why ? ) well so I can pass this Elegant Lady to my two daughters without any worry, whom are also sailors as well, ever since they were born both they have had salt spray in there faces and the felling of the unbridled passion of deep blue offshore water, no doubt you would agree Tim.
Anyway, I hope the wind is in your favour, the canvas continues to set you free and sail on to eternity,
Kind and respectful regards
Terry.
We have a Bavaria year 2000, and a Jeanneau year 2004, the Bavaria is much more solid boat with real woods not veneer faced ply. Sails really well, but have only been out in 60 knots wind 😂
We have 5,000 NM in our 2001 42’ Bavaria. Sails great.
I do like the Bavarias. They offer a lot of modern boat for the money. Sad that things didn't work out with the dealer in the US. Probably they realized the mistake relying on one dealer to do all the Bavaria selling and servicing pretty quickly.
great story teller, wonderful communication
Bavaria is GREAT !!!
Nothing wrong with it i sailed with a Bavaria 38C around Europe with any probleme .
Let's not give this guy a platform regarding sailing boats. He apparently knows it all so well, but Bavaria yachts are great boats. That is why so many of them have been sold and so many are still sailing around, including the older types.
The retailer is always responsible for fixing defects.
But only an idiot retailer would accept a 2% discount to let the manufaturer off the hook to support them in fixing defects. 5% may be realistic, 10% tempting but when the manufacturer has no incentive to deliver quality then guess what happens.
From a manufacturer's perspective, do they really wan't a retailer who is incentivised to not support the product that bears their name?
As a retailer, if you only have one supplier then you are screwed.
From a buyer's perspective, why buy from a retailer who only sells one brand? They have no incentive to help you find the best product for your needs.
This entire supply chain model sucks big ones.
Oh & the penny washers on the keel bolts in the early one were an issue , They got Farr to help with there newer designs but i think the damage had been done , Still theres many sailing the world .
Having beem an Grand Soleil and X yacht rep in the mid 90s. I must say they were hard to sell against. Those boats were nuce. The pre-euro market was a certain free for all. Lire was almost useless making Grand Soleil cheap while the Danish krone made the X yacht expensive.. Super interesting episode. I like certain things about Hanse but hate other things.
I still rather have a 30 years old Swan, Baltic, Hallberg Rassey than almost any recent production boat. For the same money.
I like to trim the sail to the weather conditions. Bavaria is a boat for people who like to hoist the sails and sail. Not worrying about speeds an sailplan etc. We bought an new sailing boat. We wanted to buy a Dehler, but as we are getting older, we bought a Hanse. High quality and good performance. Greetings from the Netherlands.
I bought a new Bavaria 34 cruiser in 2018 (during bankruptcy. The deal was propperly managed by the Bavaria dealer). Sailed it till 2022. Smaller guarantee issues managed by the dealer professional. I sold it with almost no loss (ok, boat market went up in general). Now I am happy with our brand new Bavaria C 38. It’s fast and very comfortable for a reasonable price. Again some minor quality issues, but they are solved one after the other without extra costs. A lot of boat for the money. In total I can recommend Bavaria. I am a german and sailing in the neatherlands. I understand it s easier to trust, if you are closed by. Fair winds! Jens
Buying new Bavarias is tragic. Buy a better boat second hand.
There was a Bavaria sinking in November 23 in the Southern Atlantic I guess, it was quite big news in Germany. The boat was hit by a container to the steering, and due to the way how steering is mounted it tore a hole in the boat. The owner survived in a life raft to tell the story. The boat was "M Jambo".
Good video, thanks!
I sailed a Hunter 49 for five years and loved it. Boats described as "production" are not necessarily bad. I thought the review was fair enough, though the title could use a little more love. I am not interested in some of the mass produced boats, but that's just me. I especially agreed with the interior description...to me, the wood finish looks cheap, but on the other hand, it depends on the customer and price. I did not take the review as a hatchet job, but more like buyers need to do their due diligence in light of what they intend to do with the boats they buy. I might buy a Hunter again, but it would depend on the model, condition, price, etc.
hello i'm french and i like yours analyses... Thank for this information to Bavaria... More stories to sail boat builder it's so interesting (sorry for my english) Thank you
if you set the rigg according to Selden recommendations most of the Bavaria that I had work with get damages in the deckfittigs/lekage and in som cases on the 30-33 fot even problems in the interior so we had to set riggs on to halv the recommend tensions.
In 2008 they also had financial problems. I love the 2009 Bavaria Cruisier i am finalizing on Monday. The tandem keel is a dark horse winner in many ways. Superior speed in confused seas. Superior bolting pad footprint to the hull. Shoal draft with good pointing ability. Very strong chainplate system. Ergonimics for tall people - I never bumped my head in that boat during inspection. cockpit control over genoa car location. flip down transom. Good SA/Disp number. In-mast furling. Stern shape for fast displacement sailing - not pretending to be a cruising sport boat. Solid cabin hardware. Great 2 cabin floor plan.
Not all good... recent dismasting in the Atlantic adds doubt. Likely needs running backstays. Maybe a baby stay also. The interior wood finish needed to be thicker, needs rejuvinated in many places.
So why the financial problems? It doesn't help to push out massive numbers of hulls without adequate field testing. Increases exposure. I think my boat is superior quality vs the Beneteau 323 for example. So if they competed on price, they would have had thinner margins. The production concept worked for Ford. Maybe production lines don't adapt well to low volume and rapidly evolving boat designs.
Anyway, I am excited about my well used, robust 34.
Except the Volvo MD2030 is really a Perkins M30,all MD series were made by perkins and are parts are far cheaper then any other engine at parts4engines Bavaria's from 2000 to 2010 were well made infact a 46 , 2006 is one of my favourite boats, one couple from Tazmania sailed one around the world
Happy Bavaria 44 owner here. My Bavaria is from 2003 and I have never had a more robust and sturdy boat. Have sailed many miles across the North Sea and never met with any problem. The boat is very reliable and sails quite comfortable so I don't know why you would advise people not to buy a Bavaria.
2% to cover warranty work sounds like a pittance - on a $500,000 boat, that would be $10,000. That not only needs to cover the actual cost of any repairs, but also the cost of administering the claims and repairs. People who buy new expensive boats are also not likely to be tolerant of minor problems. Even if the boats were perfect out of the factory, damage could be done in shipping them to North America, which might not be caught in time. Do other manufacturers have similar clauses with their US dealers? I can't see it being profitable for the dealers unless the warranty period is exceptionally short.
I’ve sailed a Bavaria. Sailed well and pointed really well. Slams terribly upwind and the interior is not particularly solidly built. I wouldn’t cross an ocean in one, but as a coastal cruiser / charter it was fine.
I have been sailing my Bavaria 31 Cruiser since i bought it 2008, 16 years. It is far my best boat. I have owned Maxi, Albin Cirrus, Albin Ballad but the Bavaria has the best quality. No problems at all. A wonderful boat.
One point is to decide what price I pay for wich quality.
The more important point is, that Bavaria seemed to glue the keel stringers instead of laminating them to the hall…. Keel losing danger or massive damage after hitting the ground are serious (safety) matters…
I think you should do an episode on the D&D Kufner 54. Haven't heard of it? Well there's your challenge.
Am looking at a 1969 nicholson 32 ft owned by the 2nd owner for 48 years, long keel, thick plastic, sturdy boat.
Looking for a yacht to retire on, around 35-42 foot, what make would you suggest? I do understand there are many variables
I chartered a Bavaria 40 Ocean center cockpit boat in Greece. Our charter was its second or third and it had a shattered glass wind screen. This charter happened just after 911 and the couple we had planned to share the charter with was not able to fly to Greece. So my wife and I decided to take it on. As it’s now 22 years ago that this occurred our memories are now limited. However, the comparison with our two Malo yachts purchased in 2002 and 2006 could not be more stark. Bavaria, like other “production” boats, do not measure up for real sailors.
That was very interesting. I did not know the History of Bavaria. I had a friend that had a Bavaria 33 on Long Island. I believe it was early 2000. Have you ever done a review or the history of the C&C. I have a C&C 99. I do mostly day sailing and club racing. and you can spend a weekend on the boat. Thanks for sharing and safe Sailing
Most purchasers would think that being the vehicle is usually kept and used on water there would be more mandatory buyer protection laws. ?
Quite the joke, one trip to Bahamas where you almost sunk your boat and you fancy yourself as a qualified marine surveyor or architect. Boat reviews are fine but I don’t see the qualifications to lead people astray with deep opinions on function, build or quality. The reason we have our Vision 42 is because the joinery and hardware was solid compared to Hanse, Defour and others that had cheap, weak hinges and locks. After a solid and reliable 10000 miles over 6 years I’d have to say your blowing smoke on this one. Carry on with personal options on interior colours or layouts but to give “expert” opinions or advice on boats you’ve never stepped foot on is far fetched at minimum.
Cheers.
Fact is that, nowadays in Europe, Hanse boats can hardly be bought secondhand, but lots of Bavaria are still available. Beneteau, being also a popular brand and comparable to Bavaria, can also be seen, there are so much less in the market. I would not say that Bavaria is a brand not to get, but there's many people willing to sell therirs, anb so much less people thinking on getting one.
make next video: First boat under 10k
Early 2000s I had the pleasure of attending a major boat show on the west coast U.S. The Bavaria - I can’t recollect what model - screamed cheap - especially when I went below. I thought 'Bavaria’ - okay, German - maybe austere. I looked closer and it said to me - IKEA. No thanks.
Perhaps in a future episode, you can give us your thoughts on Hylas yachts. I'm kind of smitten with them but, they are expensive and I would like to know if they're worth the extra money.
Good and balanced review....this is little bit like GM cars in 80s . ....same car sold in different permutations.
id like you to interview insurance agents who are knowledgeable about boat claims and compile the top 10 most claimable items/events and perhaps tell a story of people that did have particular insurance coverage, or may be didn't, and how they dealt with it.
As an insurance agebt for 25 years as well as a keen sailor... bavaria had less problems than most other brands in my practise
I owned a 2002 Bavaria 37 in the past. She was easy to sail, confortable and rather fast. I was very careful, regular and gentle cleaning, cautious wintering condition, proper maintenance,... in 2008, I noticed leaks around one of the portside portholes. I understood later where this was coming from. at that time the teak deck on Portside was coming unstuck: The following winter, I took the boat to a shipyard to get the teak deck replaced. After few days, the shipyard manager call me ans ask me to come to see an issue. Went there and found that there were tens of holes drilled in the gelcoat, under the track deck. Obviously, my boat had been used as a drilling martyr at Bavaria Shipyard, before the teck desk was laid.
When I contacted Bavaria, they asked me to see which the bead dealer who sold the boat to me. When I called the dealer, he said the boat in not under guarantee anymore. I was too lazy to sue Bavaria. But for sure, I will never buy any of their coffins anymore.
For the same budget, I would strongly recommend to buy a used Hallberg Rassy or Island Packet yacht, rather than a brand new Bavaria Junkyacht.
The old Bavarias were solid and pretty good under sail. Anything newer than 2005 ish, tends to have a bad opinion. Anyway, not the brand I'd go for myself.
It it possible to do a report on sea worthiness of Bavaria, Hunter, Beneteau - some objective criteria compared to the most seaworthy same-size boat (Lagoon?) Hull failures, rigging failures, swamping, keel failures, rudder failures, other incidents ??
I must totally disagree with you on the quality of Bavaria boats. I have been sailing for 48 years and have owned 5 sailboats. I currently own a 2015 Bavaria 33 and it is far and away the best boat I have ever owned. The dealer support is not very good but that is generally true for most brands in my experience. Fortunately, the quality control at the factory is excellent. The only problem I have had in 8 years is a failed level sensor on the holding tank which didn't matter since I can check it visually. Build quality is first rate, no leaks of any kind and never had a drop of water in the bilge. I have also chartered Jeaneaus and Beneteaus in the BVI's, St. Martin, Antigua and St. Lucia and would take a Bavaria over them any day.
Have you owned a Hallberg Rassy yet? I can't see how many others can compare to that.
@@HyperSarcasticAvocadoHR are twice the price. That’s comparing apples and oranges. Bavaria boats are not bad at all. Maybe they had a couple of bade years nut in general they’re proper quality boats.
@@sodune7590 Apple = best, doctors and teachers like them. Good gifts, yum pies.
Orange = horrible. Worst juice, only drinkable in morning when youre already miserable. Goes in chistmas treats, kids hate.
So yes I was comparing apples to oranges and it fits lol.
Beneteau Are they still using galvanized Nails, and if not when did they change to stainless for their interiors?
Thanks
I've got a Bavaria 36 and its brilliant
From what I understand starting 2020+ they made a lot of changes. I mean look at how well the C42 has done.
The US dealer wanted to keep 10 of the Barvaria's boat? Had to be a southerner company... I had a Bavaria ocean 42 and it is an excellent boat that has been to Europe and back. I must strongly disagree with you.
I'm not a sailor; I watch your videos because I enjoy how you explain something that is new to me.
My question, after watching so many videos of boats with horrible manufacturing issues is: "why is it so hard to build a defect-free boat?"
Haven't we been building boats since before we had written language?
Imagine if I told you "well, automobiles keep failing catastrophically because everything in automobile design is a compromise" - would you buy that?
The simple answer is, as always, MONEY.
@@Chris-zo5ze I think i get what you mean: greed results in low quality, but: Homebuilders are just as greedy, carmakers are just as greedy, yet they have certain standards that prevent catastrophic defects in >98% of homes built (for example).
It just seems like, with sailing and RVing, the consumer will accept that they're going to get something that's broken, right from the factory- that every manufacturer has known defects, and that's just pathetic.
I get that nature destroys every boat eventually, but _defects_ should be unacceptable in a millenia-old hobby.
@asdfbeau I agree with you...
I think he's being a bit sensationalistic trying to get clicks though. From what I can gather, there were no catastrophic problems or actual boat losses... Just more problems than 2% would cover so they had to file bankruptcy. 🤷🏻♂️ Who knows.?
You can buy great well-built boats for much more money and they retain their value way more because they built properly and have owners who can afford to take care of them properly.
Hm... I understand the danger from dealing with a manufacturer who went bankrupt, but: In Europe there is mass of Bavarias in Mediterranean or in the North Sea, and not more complaints are known about them than the Jeanneau leaking windows or the Dufours with their issues. I remember that they had home accidents with keel detaching when hit an obstacle under water in heavy weather, nothing else. A dispute with a dealer is never a good thing, but its up to the courts to sort out who is right.
Noticed a gorgeous Bavaria 50-something up in San Juan Islands two years ago. Style-wise, not my cup of tea, but impressive.
It depends on the year. Until 2003 they are Awesome!!
I'd love to hear lady Ks' take on home built boats.
Homemade boats aka sailboat shaped steel barges, or lovingly crafted wooden hulls who's owner dies before ever getting launched.
@@WojciechP915 apparently you've never heard of stitch and glue.
@@joehobo2189 For crossing an ocean, no.
@@WojciechP915 th-cam.com/video/ZqqryOpw3lg/w-d-xo.html
This guy is!
5:48 looking for a wide boat like this, with beach club - what should I search for?
Well, it sounds like b USA negotiated a really really bad deal.
Anyone who is into boating knows that 2% rebate for all warrenty repairs is just plain naive.
I've been on Bavaria 46c a couple of times. Good boats. Also a big charter company in Croatia I know very well has the least technical issues with their Bavaria yachts as compared to jeanneu.
I would like to know better information about the Hans Christian 4750 Explorer and the Hallmark 4850. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration in this request.
Maybe idea for the next episodes can be answer if present boats from mass production producers like Jeanneau, Dufour, Hanse, Benetau, etc are really ocean crossing boats? I mean the latest mode in really, really wide open cocpits…
Agree on most parts and love your videos:)
It is worth mentioning that many northern european/scandinavian sailors rate Bavarias from the late 90's and up to around 2007 as some of the best production yachts. Highest quality interior and great performance. After that, not so good:)
I have to agree with most comments....Bavaria were always much better quality and finish than Jeanneau, since you compared the two. This was because of the consistency afforded by reliable mass prodiction methods. Above all sizing of gear and rigging has always been noticeably heavier duty than Jeanneau/Beneteau/Dufour. I bought a Catalina 36 rather than the Bavaria equivalent which in Europe outsold the Catalina by the hundred. It had lots of issues, particularly leaks and condensaton ones, as well as some installation issues due to the poor level of UK importer engaged by Catalina in the early 2000s.. I've since learned never to buy new, but preferably 2 years old or more when most issues are sorted.
Hi Tim! You're Canadian, right? So why not do an episode on Grampians. Started in Canada with US-Designs, named after Scottish mountains, opened a branch in the US, took on Scottish an Dutch Designers, gave licenses to English yards (with strange differences between Canadian and Englisch boats) and also sold boats as kits. So - nobody really knows how many of them have been built. Oh, and of course there are insolvencies in the mix.
Greets
Ralf C.