Efficiency test LTO Yinlong battery
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- The test ended up showing a higher efficiency than I expected, it seems nearly too high. I conducted the test with as robust of a technique as I thought I could do with the equipment that I have.
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Battery Load
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Watt meter
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Power supply: This is a decent grunty supply (fairly expensive) It's not really suitable as a lab supply since it has large capacitance on the output - this means that if you are current regulating a sensitive device that has changing loads (driving an LED or something) it could temporarily overcurrent the device. Great for charging batteries or just a good constant current constant voltage supply for general purpose. 32 Volt 32Amp. I've tried the smaller form factor supplies similar to this, however they do not seem to be as good or robust.
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Why are people thinking that I am disagreeing with Brendon? The comments below are driving me nuts. I had grade b cells (which I mentioned was a possibility in that video), and I pulled full capacity in my part two video. Why are commenters below thinking that brendon is challenging me or disagreeing with me? I think this video and the last one that brendon posted are great. I still prefer LiFePO4, but LTO is awesome in its own regard. But why the bad attitude in the comment section?
Haha, I know right... everyone thinks we have beef lol
@@brendontait6968 right?! I'm enjoying your videos and people think I disagree with you or something. I don't understand. I can't wait to see what else you build and further test with LTO. It's awesome
Thanks mate, am gonna play with any chemistry I can get my hands on (can be pretty difficult this part of the world, a little jealous that things are so much easier to get hold of in the states).
I honestly think LTO is quite fascinating. I just can’t afford to build a big pack with it and I’m just more comfortable with LiFePo4. I’m glad someone else can teach me more about them.
Probably because the vast majority of people are too stupid to do any thought process of their own.
I'm enjoying this ongoing discussion and gradually learning stuff about battery chemistry. Thanks for the lessons Brendon, you're a fast talker so I play the videos at 75% normal speed 😃; gives my 76 year old brain time to process the incoming data.
Haha, thanks Dav. I feel that I'd lose a bunch of people if I talked slowly. Glad TH-cam has that option for you! I'm going to be covering a bunch of stuff and doing both beginner and advanced videos. Glad you're learning some.
The safest, fastest ,longest lasting and cheapest per cycle.
It just takes up a little too much space. For me, can be ignored.
May not be cheaper than lead acid
@@sayyidsahal4533 is cheaper...if i remember almost half the price
@@sayyidsahal4533At 1C LTO are good for over 25,000 cycles to 60% remaining battery life after all those cycles.
Thanks for the video, Brendon. These cells are really compelling. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and observations working with them. Really love the build of how you used them in your van. Cheers!
My pleasure!
Another indicator is heat given off during charge and discharge, those cells would cook very quickly with their relatively small surface area to capacity if they were inefficient. Keep up the good work.
Definitely!
If they cook. It will be bad in this test, because more energy would loss in heat.
Yep but a low CE does not necessarily give you heat it can also split electrolyte and similar which requires more energy. Though low ce will also destroy the battery most likely. Because where would all this 15% electricity go? Do something else which doesn't sound good
The larger the battery the less surface area to volume ratio, heat has less area to dissipate.
My entire life I've had a difficult time understanding electricity. Your videos are so well explained I finally get it. Thanks!! Subscribed!
Hey, I'm glad they are helping. I'm going to be doing a lot more with in depth detail.
Thanks very much, Brendon! I really appreciate you taking on stuff like this.
No problem Jocke
For weeks I study just to understand this short video.. Finally I fully understand.. worth subscribing your channel and I hope to see more content on this LTO battery.. Thank you 🙏
Glad you took the time. I'm going to be doing a bunch more. Cheers
Dude, I love your video's. Its all scientific evidence which people refuse to teach and educate themselves on rather than be told what to believe. I will be honest though, electricity is one of my weak pooints and you lost me early on on the vid but you have given me a avenue to go and learn so thankyou.
I appreciate that! Follow along and I'm sure you'll pick it up. A lot of electronics seems overwhelming at first but when you break it down into basics it all starts to make sense.
This actually is extremely unscientific if not intentionally misleading. The base assumption of ignoring Round trip ENERGY efficiency is itself wrong. That is what actually matters.
Hey mate, I'm pretty close to blocking you from my channel. I was in no way intentionally misleading. I explained fully at the start of the video that I was measuring coulombic efficiency and not energy efficiency and mentioned the reasons why. I take time out of my weekends to make these videos for very little in return. I made sure that I was very clear about how I was going to conduct the test. To say that I am being intentionally misleading is disrespectful, unappreciated and incorrect. I'm not sure if you just like to stir shit, but I'm not going to tolerate this sort of thing in my comments.
Brendon,
So great to see another video.
You have a unique approach of practicality and technical information, without being preachy.
I place you in my top 5 TH-cam channels.
Thank you.
Hoping for lots more from you.
Matt
(Brendon, my comments are heartfelt, not an attempt to blow smoke up your arse.)
Thanks heaps Matthew, let me know when I get to number 2! 🤣
Have had a lot of external stuff going on, hoping to get a heap more content out.
really cool project! i love you to do a video on the bms you used with that many cells.
Your battery pack always intrigued me as I want to build an electric only off grid camper. The fact that these can charge at -0C and the absorption rate is awesome always made a lot more sense in a situation where I'd be relying on them for overnight heat. Running high current draw things like electric showers or cookers would be perfect for the application and I think you could get around any inefficiencies with some extra solar panels, assuming your application of these allows adding a 300w solar panel which obviously rules out a lot of the smaller #vanlife type of builds.
looking at these arnold for the same reason i got a 1969 open road catlina that i am in the process of doing a tear out on and a rebuild, which you know as in a van or a slide in camper room is at a premium. which i will be updating several components in . please keep me informed on how oyu do with these either thru here or on facebook,, thanxs
Hey Arnold, yeah.. I'm going "full' electric, but I think hot water heating is probably a bit ambitious even for my pack. I might use bleed power to heat HWC when battery is fully charged. But that is about all.
@@brendontait6968 i used a 30 L Nautic Boiler it also has a heat exchanger and you can get 300 watt element i use a 500 watt with 390 A/Hr lead battery's i got 1400 Watts solar with a 5k Victron muiti Plus
@@brendontait6968 You could get higher efficiency heating with black heat pipes circulating water into a boiler. That would eliminate the 85% efficiency losses of solar and take the stress off of your batteries. Heat pump would be a nice option for 500% COP efficiency heating as well.
@@brendontait6968 try black PVC PEX pipe solar water heater
Thanks for sharing. I measured the same high efficiency. .
Awsome thanks for the video as this has helped me to realize what batteries to get. LTO
Thanks for posting! Loved the video.
Brendon Tait, great job! I am about to install a 3KW solar system on top of my campervan (in Auckland), which is fully functioning when opening up as an awning, otherwise 1kw while folded... These videos help allot and all the help I can get is always appreciated. Once done, I will plug my plugin hybrid on to the system at a slow 8amp charging rate, which should charge it up in 5 hours during the day.. Can't wait for all the negative comments of overkill system once I youtube the final product!
Sounds amazing!
Love your work mate, keep it up. Cheers Deka.
Thanks Derek
Thank you for the videos, great work!
Thanks joni
Thank you. Really clear real world information again. Top man
Cheers Grant
Blimey you are so clever. I have learnt something today. Thanks
Thanks and glad to have helped
Hey Brendon, good test - at least this debunks a myth before it gains popularity. Thanks for taking the time.
disprove
@@brianwilless1589 (I'm not entering as foe) - but normally in the scientific community (though I do not pose as such) you'd pick out something in particular you don't agree with...Otherwise you'll view point is as good as Karens. Maybe you hold a valid point?
Seems between Brendon and Will (who've conducted testing of their own) there is some form of consensus, whilst Will tested recently on 12v, 24v & 48v systems mentioning on a 12v it doesn't offer the same return as the larger voltages.
Is there anything in particular you disprove of, regarding the study?
Great logical analysis. Thanks.
Nailed it. Thanks for the update.
Cheers Aaron
I love the video. Way too technical for me so I'll just trust you and your math/skills.
Thanks, tho the more you hear technical talk, the more familiar you'll become and the deeper understanding you'll have. Thanks
Interesting, first in depth look at these cells in these videos. I always was intrigued by the 10c did/charge rating. I was wondering if I could take any advantage of this 10c regarding a solar cell config in a cloudy area...I guess having an over sized array will help in a quickly filled up battery? Anyway, keep up the good work
I;m not sure the high charge/discharge rates are of much benefit with offgrid systems
Integrity is valuable - you are valuable !
Cheers
So keen for a new video from you.
working on one at the moment - cheers
Extremely safe and efficient power storage.
Hi Brendan, great vids, keep up the great work, I love them! What is your thoughts on the prismatic LTO batteries? I'm also building a Unimog RV for family travels and would like to run a couple of fridges (Engel 60 and 40l) Bit green on all this new tech...
Hey Glen, Thanks. I have some, but haven't played with them. Keep them compressed and don't store them at max charge voltage and they should be fine.
Super good info, thank you for sharing
No problem
I'm so mad you are making so Little video recently. Take care Brendon!
Haha - sorry about that Tomek, I've been too busy procrastinating...
@@brendontait6968 but Brendon - the quality of content you do, are inspiring to the other, but on the other hand, I can fully understood - that bitch is not taking "no" for an answer :P
Thanks heaps for the good info and demonstration to back it up.
Regarding getting my hands on some of these cells (in Australia, close to NZ); What is the best / cheapest method of shipping from China you have found? Or did you just go with the standard shipping from the supplier you linked to in your previous video? I tried buying some LiFePO cells and shipping was expensive (about as much as the cells, which turned out to be low quality anyway. arghh!).
Flick me a message on the email listed in the description in my battery video for group buy options
Hey mate
Brilliant vid.
Do you sell these?
I’m in Melbourne
I did more of a crude test on mine and noticed a steep drop in voltage from full charge. This made me think they were a scam. But once nominal voltage was reached they just seemed to hang out there forever, and the performance turned out to be really good. Glad to see further confirmation. They are a hefty investment and something you definitely want to be sure about.
Yeah for sure - they have a fairly steep charge knee at either end of the charge curve
Love your work Brendon. Any chance you could do a video on how your system could work in a yacht/catamaran as there is a huge hunger for knowledge in this space.
Hey Brodie, thanks. Yes, as soon as someone donates a boat to me I'll be right onto it! I'm going to be doing a bunch more battery/electrical content in the near future. Most of the stuff I do will be directly transferable to boating environments.
Hey Brendon love the video and all the effort you put in, Do you still have surplus of these batteries still
Hey Alan, yeah I have a few left. Message me on insta
Hey Brendan - awesome videos - so glad I've discovered you! Where in NZ are you? I'm looking to convert our 2004 English Caravan to Lithium and would love to pick your brains if possible please.
Thank you.
I am a complete brain fart when it comes to electronics so thanks for taking the time to explain things visually
No problem CJ
I've had the CPS-6016 for a few years now, it is an excellent supply for the money, and very compact. Voltage goes up to 63V at 17A which is a nice bonus!
Hey... yeah, I find it a really good supply tho like I mentioned in the comments you have to be mindful of the high capacitance on the output if running circuits in constant current mode.
@@brendontait6968 Totally! I make a habit of starting a load at undervoltage levels or constant current mode before dialing it up. The output capacitance is quite sizeable.
Thank you for your test. The efficiency is approx 86%.
The coulomb efficiency is relevant to ensure that you for a few cycles are charging and discharging to the same level. At 1:55 you say that you loose charge due to internal resistance - you are not loosing charge - you loose energy. I could calculate the correct efficiency from your video - you charged with 97,1 Wh and you got 83,4 Wh out of the battery - so the efficiency of the battery is 0,86 or 86%. - and that is actually realy good. And probably closer to 88% - you did not discharge fully....Based on this test - i will get some LiFePO4 batteries :)
Hi Bjorn, you are incorrect with your assertion. I even mentioned in the video why it would not be possible to use the Wh reading on the meter to measure efficiency. Check my low temperature video for more details.
@@brendontait6968 Hi Brendon. You check amp hour to see if you get wha you pay for - and whats really relevant you check Wh charging and discharging to check energy efficiency. I did not hear any viable explanation in the video. Whats your argument? Kind regards Bjorn
Please watch my video for low temperature testing of these cells. I explain with a lot more depth in there.
@@brendontait6968 Hello Brandon. I watched your video on low temperature testing and correct me if i am wrong - you state that you got a voltage drop of 0,5 V from relative short wire and connector. If you discharge with 10 A you are claiming wires and connectors has a resistance of 0,05 ohm (using Ohm's first law) - It should be considerably lower by a factor of 10. The units you are using are of some interest to me - i got several and are using them when I have a class that are learning about efficiency and batteries. I have tested the units against "expensive" equipment - and they are giving solid data - when they are working :)
I am not at all convinced that efficiency that you state is correct......! Best regards - you are an inspiration - and i will subscribe...
Hi Bjorn, it is not just the connector between the device and the battery, but extended wires etc. I didn't measure the voltage drop I just mentioned 0.5V as a possible example, I had wires coming from the battery to the meter also. But even if the v drop was 0.2V, that will still give you an error of 10% in each direction if you are reading the Wh reading on that meter. To use Wh on any meter accurately, you must use a 4 wire meter. I would be very surprised if I was wrong.
Hey brendon, great video. I've been running a 6s4p bank for a few years now at 15.4v and I run it up to a 10c discharge nearly everyday for my purposes, mostly on cold temps as well, and they have performed better then any other cells I've had. My application is very demanding and I've been constantly amazed by these cells time and time again. Been using them since 2018. Nearly everything about them is amazing in my opinion. I honestly shoe off the naysayers that talk about these cells because Ive had so much real world experience with these that no one can make me think bad about them.
There is another LTO cell that is 18ah, a lot smaller but much higher charge and discharge rate that I will be testing this year. I started a lithium battery business, so I have some contracts with Yinlong and a few other companies in china so I get to get a lot of these cells for low prices, which helps.
Thanks for the informative videos!
Hey, that's great to hear. Yeah the lishens definitely are a compelling price point too
@@brendontait6968 yes, very, great cells from what I've seen
Do you have a website or a Facebook page? Thanks for your comment.
@JTO2632
Are you still in business? Do you have a page / contact / ... ?
مساء الخير ممكن سؤال من فضلك ماهيه الاسعار المخفضة التي تتحدث عنها وهل البطارية تتحمل الشحن السريع والتفريغ السريع ممكن جواب على السؤال
Very helpful 👍
Great info. Thanks…..subscribed
Cheers Mike
they are nice cells indeed
Great video
Lto is the best and safe ima use them for extreme car audio
100%
Can they be use home setup as in store charge from solar panels?
Another great video, thanks Brendon!! I researched LTO 2-3 years ago & I'm 99.95% certain that I read the '85% round trip efficiency' from a manufacturer spec sheet, which could have been just a poor translation / translation error. Does anybody else remember seeing that spec?
Also, another funny "no formal training, just muckin about" moment: 'Great little watt meter, but it's not perfect, so I fixed it.' :-)
Thanks Frank, yeah... I haven't seen it aside from watching Wills video. It's possible that some of the early versions of this chemistry were at that level?
@@brendontait6968 Yes, that's possible. I do remember the distinct impression that it was a "deal killer" for me at the time. I'm just glad you've cleared this up, thank you!!
Round trip effieciency does it incude inverter loses?
The 85% may be at the rated discharge rate which for lto is commonly 10c to 15c which is ridiculous for most applications (for a 40ah cell that's a 600a continuous draw!)
Another DIY pleb doing a real world test that would shame a lot of so called pro's. Well done definitely subed no questions asked. It's funny how the average run of the mill person does a more in depth and extensive test than most keyboard warriors on YT that just want to bad mouth and complain about a product. You took the time to research and thoroughly test a product for your application rather than going by a random test someone else did.
Cheers mate
These LTO cells seem like amazing batteries - and they have the ability to be used at quite low (-20°C ?) temperatures as well. I am though confused as generally Will Prowse is also a good person to watch and he disagrees with you regarding their efficiency. I would assume any inefficiency would primarily show itself as heat? Perhaps encase the cell in an expanded polystyrene casing with a thermometer probe and repeat the exercise? Otherwise it would be great to see a video with you both in. It may be that Will has purchased sub-standard cells or something? Perhaps both run the same experiment at the same time and compare and share results?
Yes - I've watched you both with respect to LTO Cells.
Hi Mark, I agree, Will generally does have good information. I've talked with Will and from what I understand he agrees with my take on efficiency. I think there may have been a few things playing into the results he got. Firstly and possibly most importantly I think he had B grade cells. The shrink wrap on them was different to mine which makes me think they were probably grabbed out of some bin then re wrapped and sold. Additionally - a high C rate charge and discharge will drop the efficiency which would be more pronounced with low grade cells.
Yes, Mark, any inefficiency will appear as heat, however, an experiment where you place the cell in an insulated polystyrene enclosure with thermometer isn't going to tell you anything besides turning the cell + enclosure into an oven (adiabatic walls) and trying your best to increase the case temperature of the cell as much as possible. In order to determine what the temperature of the cell was, the experimenter is encouraged to maintain steady-state conditions by conducting the experiment in an environment with a *fixed ambient temperature.*
On the other hand, determining efficiency _electrically_ makes sense here because this device is made primarily for electrical energy storage.
Using the watt-hour figure for total energy, and assuming the initial discharge was to 1.8V (footage was lost) we get 97.1Wh over 4h40m and 83.4Wh over 4h10 minutes. There's an extra 30 minute discrepancy here which is due to the absorption phase of charging (CV starts at 4h6m at 10A, then 0.24A at 4h24m , then 0.15A at 4h39m). The calculated energy efficiency for this charge-discharge cycle is 83.4/97.1 *100% = 85.9% while the coulombic efficiency has been proven in the video to be 41.358Ah/41.4Ah * 100% = 99.8%.
_What does this mean?_
*Coulombic efficiency:* 99.8% of the electrons moved through the cell during the discharge cycle as compared to the charge cycle. Everything that happened with ions in the electrolyte, as well as the reduction and oxidation at the active material where the lithium titanite nanocrystals and the anode and cathode metal resided, were 99.8% efficient, as ion flow and electron flow have a direct correlation.
*Energy efficiency:*
Over a period of 4h10m, 85.9% of the energy was consumed by the load, and 13.7Wh was dissipated as heat inside the cell and along the cables. This heat is primarily influenced by the C rate of the discharge and the internal series resistance of the current collectors in the cell. Doubling the current quadruples the energy lost as heat (Ohmic power loss (Watts) = Current^2*Resistance). In order to get 99% energy efficiency, the experimenter simply needs to slow the discharge down to a 0.05C rate. This is true for any cell construction, including supercapacitors (EDLC) that have no chemical reactions taking place! Therefore, coulombic efficiency is more representative of the LTO chemistry, whereas the 86% energy efficiency is representative of the construction of the cell (length of current collector strips to electrodes, thickness of the strips, conductivity) and the system requirements.
*IMPORTANT* If you pause after 5:37 you can see the voltage drop between the watt-meter and the electrodes where the fluke multimeter is measuring voltage. There is about 0.2V dropped across this distance, which translates to 2W dissipated in the cables and contact resistance of the terminal block alone! There will be further voltage drop to the load as well, but over 4h10m this represents a massive *8.33 Wh lost as heat in the wires.* This was not accounted for in the energy efficiency calculation. The system efficiency may be 85.9% but the cell actually delivered 91.73 Wh to its electrodes, resulting in a cell energy efficiency of (83.4+8.33)Wh/97.1Wh *100% = 94.5% efficiency!
This is a very good result, and I hope the experimenter uses much thicker wires in their next test, or measures the voltage drop across the thin wires and accounts for the power dissipated across them.
the remaining 5.67Wh over 4h10m dissipated inside the cell and the remaining unaccounted-for wire length and contact resistance represents an average of 1.36W of energy dissipated as heat. If the current was quadruped to 40A or near 1C discharge, it would follow that the heat dissipated would increase by 8x at least (if efficiency does not decrease past 94.5%).
Also it follows that any capacitor or battery that can discharge into the 1000A level must have single to low double digit milliohm internal resistance.
I had grade b cells. I also posted a part 2 video where I pulled full capacity with higher quality cells. I did not disagree with Brendon
@@InfinionExperiments My suggestion of encasing the cell in an insulation layer was more about - is the cell being inefficient and generating a lot of heat. Obviously - I wasn't looking to start a fire or anything. Anyway, Will Prowse has since stated that he had grade-B cells and now with better quality cells, sees a much higher efficiency. I'm now a happy TH-cam viewer.
Could you do an off grid home power wall build? Love your research and work, it looks like the batteries will make a good power wall.
Hey Ian, yeah I probably will. Keen to get everything in the truck sorted for summer 1st. Cheers
yea your right ive herd and seen that guys vid he had 5 or 6 litium titinate batt and he stated incorectly that the efficiencies where around 80 percent
Great video. Thanks.
Cheers
Cool! Love your content
Thanks Colin
Interesting video thanks, don't forget to post the link to the electronic load :)
Done! Thanks for the reminder... late night post!
Hey Brenton, just wondering where abouts in Australia (or overseas) where I can find these batteries?
I have a link in my previous video about them, also doing a group buy if you are buying a few and want them at a discounted rate.
Nice to see you do this test. Battery efficiency is more than just the power in vs power out ratio. Since they are electro-chemical devices, the efficiency is effected by temperature during charging and discharging, age, condition, charge/discharge rate, charge/discharge levels, self discharge rate, internal resistance, and types of use. Most people are surprised to hear that flooded lead acid deep cycle batteries used in off-grid systems are generally 94 to 98 percent efficient in the way they are used.
The internal resistance has a lot of effect on the efficiency. I use the analogy of push starting a stick shift vehicle. A Volkswagen bug has low "resistance" to movement. It takes very little energy to get it moving, one person can get it going quickly. A low resistance battery takes very little energy to start charging. A small current flow will start charging the battery, and very little is lost in making heat. A large truck or lorry has very high "resistance" to moving. It takes several people a long time to get it moving. A battery with a high resistance (Large flooded lead acid) will require a certain amount off current flow just to overcome its internal resistance. This power does not even charge it, and is wasted as heat. This is why the larger the battery bank compared to the charging source, the less efficient the charging. This used to be a bigger problem in the days of cheap flooded lead acid batteries and VERY expensive PV modules. People would complain that their system wasn't charging well. I would explain that their 100 watts of PV was not really even charging their 1000 amp hour battery bank, just heating it. This is why lithium cell manufacturer's list their cell resistance in the product details sheet. The lower the resistance, the better.
Just a little correction: Flooded lead acid batteries should not electrolyze very much of the water from the electrolyte under normal use, just when being equalized. But they will electrolyze some of the water from the electrolyte over time, thus the electrolyte level going down. They DO NOT recombine the oxygen and hydrogen. This can be done with flooded lead acid batteries by using a catalyzing vent cap, but it is not highly efficient, and some water is still lost. Sealed lead acid batteries, such as agm and gel, MUST NOT electrolyze the water in the electrolyte AT ALL EVER. They will "burp" the gas, and lose that water in the electrolyte permanently.
Good stuff, keep up the good work.
Thanks for the description. I'm not sure I agree with your correction tho. As far as flooded cells go - they have not been commonplace in the RV world for a while now - I had vrla/AGM/Gel in mind when I said that the gasses recombine since they are the most popular. While some cells use catalysts to recombine, there are other methods used by different cell types. To my understanding AGM and Gel batteries DO electrolyze the water in use and they each have their own methods for gas recombination. The 'burping' indeed happens, but only when the gas production exceeds the ability of the cell to recombine the gasses.
@@brendontait6968 You are to kind. Life is incredible in its many opportunities to make a fool of one’s self. You are indeed correct about the gas recombination in the sealed batteries. I have actually not worked with them in a long time, and forgot about that aspect of their chemistry. Just remembered the critical aspects such as voltage and current limitations, along with the dangers of thermal runaway. Any updates on the performance of your LTO battery system performance?
We are all learning.... I'm not always going to be 100% correct with everything I say on here, but I'd like to think the majority of the time I'll be accurate.
As far as the battery pack goes... it's great. I havent come across any issues yet and it gives me more power than I need.
@@brendontait6968I figure the day I stop learning will be the day I die. This is why teamwork is so effective. We can all fill in for each other’s lack of knowledge and creativity, or mistakes and forgetfulness. The best result is when we all learn and improve together. I have had children ask me “why don’t you do it like this?”, an my answer, as I stare at the obviously far better way the child asked about, is that it just didn’t occur to me. While some things are done for very valid reasons, the premise that those reasons are based on may change, or need to be re-examined. Keep up the good work, and never stop learning. It keeps us humble and appreciative of the world around us. It’s also lots of fun!
Dear sir what brand is the charger/discharger, and also if display included. Thank you
Hi Tait. Thanks for your videos. I'm a beginner in the battery field. Could these batteries be used as battery packs for custom Ev conversions?
Hey, no problem. Honda and Mitsubishi have used this chemistry in some of their domestic vehicles. They are heavy for their energy tho. If I were to do an EV build with these, I'd use prismatic cells as they have a higher volumetric energy density. Range will be limited, performance could be quite good, life span and safety would be as good as you could get.
@@brendontait6968 Thank You. We wish You best with your plans from Scotland. :)
Having just now gotten into these threads.... do I read it correctly that a slower charge on this cells will aide in increase of the efficiency of the cells themselves? I am wishing to build a long range powered bicycle and will be using a small solar charger to recharge. Thanks for some great videos!!!
yea, I think that's generally the case with batteries. a slower charge rate will result in better efficiency. try to shove more power in faster and you get higher losses.
i here you got a lot of them yinlong batterys was wondering what you do with them i am just making my first battery 12 volt 120 amp for my off grit living the microwave and water pump being the greatest power draw, im going to try two banks after transferring power to the second bank cant we just turn on the generator and charge up the first bank since its suppose to only takes a few minutes to fully charge it? this is why i bought them post to be the game changer yeah
That's pretty good Brendon. They are substantially dearer than LiFePo4 cells though...what drew you to these specifically?
Based on a previous video, it's due to the extra cycle life of this chemistry making it overall cheaper per cycle. E.g. if LTO was good for 10x more cycles but was only 5x the cost it would be twice the value in the long-term, as you would need to replace your LiFe pack once to achieve the same overall life that LTO gives. (Of course not quite that straight-forward, but hopefully you see what I mean.) He talks about this here: th-cam.com/video/kYx097cVR48/w-d-xo.html
From what I can tell, the LTO are almost like the "led of batteries." ie they last longer than the item they're in. I would imagine, in Brendon's build, that the LTO cells will easily last as long as his van. So, maybe, that's the driver?
Hey Benny - long life, safety and ruggedness. I think the cost works out somewhere between 2-3 X more expensive than I could have built an LFP for.
Thanks all for you help!
Thanks Brendon for the test on overall charge and discharge capacity, My 6Kw LTO bank has been running fine with a daily 7.4kW 24hr usage which 12hrs of that being over night, sun down, running on battery only, the only problem I have had is one cell bank of the 22S 3P is not running as it should, I think that I have a partly failed cell that has let me down, this has happened since first running the bank many months ago, I will get around to load test that set of 3 cells which will be replaced, My Victron app tells me overall of 844kWh usage which about 50% would have been from battery draw down
Hey Ross, One thing I have read about this chemistry is that it doesn't like the be stored with high charge and high temp. That is the only thing (ither than mechanical abuse) that I've heard can make them fail early. Am interested to hear your outcome.
Cheers
@@brendontait6968 I was very careful when tensioning the main 2 bolts and used a tension wrench just to be sure.
E messesario usar bms para sistema solar 12v ?
Regarding your battery bank build, would you mind sharing what MBS you're using, and are you using solar? what solar charge controller,, and do you need an inverter? is LTO DC current? and you are using this to drive your van right? Because I'm planning to drive my van and I'm worried about choosing those parts. It's easy for a house build but for the car build, I Don't know.
Am using an ANT bms, it works but is not great. All batteries are DC (arguably inertial batteries could be AC). So I have a 600VA inverter that runs 24/7. This powers my fridge and a couple of power outlets. There is about a 7W penalty for this, but this is insignificant for my system. I have a 6kVA inverter for running my induction hobs, hot water cylinder, oven etc.
I hope to spend a bunch more time in the coming year creating more informative electrical videos.
Thank you for correcting Will's misinfo.
Did you ever add a BMS or balancer to your trucks battery pack?
Yes, hopefully will have info on that next video
Hi Brendon, in a previous video you said you had some spare LTO's. Would you have 6 available still please ?
Stuart, Auck
Hey, yeah... flick me a message on insta
Great video Brendon, very informative , you definitely deserve more subs keep it up. These batteries are a winner for sure 10amp 25% charge / discharge is perfect range.
Cheers Pat
Thanks for that Pat. Been super busy, will get to loading some more content up soon. Cheers
Good work
Thx Gabe
I may have missed a video, but how is your battery system doing, regardless of all the "chatter" about battery types, equipment, efficiency, and stick measuring ; - )
How is your battery system doing, what can you do with a full days charge; etc. thanks - & great videos!
Hey, thanks. Yeah it has been working well. I haven't really been away in it. I have been using the mains powered fridge/freezer in it with inverter. It lasts 10-12 days on a charge. I'll make a video on the BMS etc soon.
Brendon, what is total leakage current about full charged on piece of this battery?
If you mean self discharge? I haven't done any testing but believe it is about 3% per month.
Would love to see you repeat this test with a temperature gun on the cells the entire time. No heat, no loss.
Good point, maybe will try fit that somewhere into a future video
If you use a temperature gun, please remove the heat shrink from the test location and ensure the aluminum is painted so it is opaque, and set the emissivity of the temperature gun to the value reported on the paint spec sheet
Most interesting battery system so far for me, would love to have a full order list for a camper plus a home solar storage solution.
I'm going to be looking into a home storage setup in the future, stay tuned
@@brendontait6968 wow, great! For me the first sustainable battery solution I would tend tu use the word sustainyble so far... 30+ years is a benchmark efficiency is not the key and as you showed not the point its the momentary price tag... thats all.
I have been doing tests on these batteries for 2 years. The problem that these batteries after charging up to 2.8V are quickly discharged automatically.
In addition, each cells does not charge correctly. So at the moment of electronic calibration you will lose the total battery voltage. So, after a whole day of calibration, you need to recharge them again. I have batteries of the same company as you.
I approach these batteries sold by individual Chinese shops are waste (bad somehow) from a large company - Yinlong.
To buy good batteries, you need to apply directly to the manufacturer
Thanks Brendon, I'm glad you did a follow up and cleared that up, appreciated
Any thoughts on using these to build an EV battery pack? What would you need, roughly 170 of these in series to hit 400v to drive a Telsa motor? That would be a lot of volume and weight, but since these batteries have such a high charge/draw amperage it might work, so I'm wondering if you think there might be a good way to do it.
TBH, I'd probably use 2nd hand tesla battery modules. But just be aware they can catch fire fairly easily if not nurtured. You'd need to parallel these cells up too to get some extra capacity. If i had my heart set on this chemistry for an EV, i'd use prismatic cells vs cylindrical to be a bit more efficient on space. There are better chemistries for EV applications tho.
@@brendontait6968, so not a great idea then. Stick with Li-Ion then or do you have a better idea?
Brilliant!
Cheers Michael
Thanx. Mike Scotland..
How come there was a voltage difference from the good voltmeter to the watt meter? you think that had an effect on the watt hours?
Because the meter was measuring the voltage at the battery and the watt meter was measuring after the voltage drop of the wires. I explained this a little in the video and it was the reason I didn't use the Wh reading on the blue meter. The Ah would remain reliable with voltage drop. Check my cold testing video. I go into a little more detail there. Cheers
Excelent test, LTO does have an advantage over LiFePo4 at low-temperature applications and number of cycles, but that's about it, LiFe is still a better and cheaper option otherwise.
Both chemistries will be probably obsolete by the time it will take you to cycle 2500 times a LiFe battery bought today.
Solid electrolytes are knocking at our door anytime now.
A true lifePO4 battery does seem safer, but idk if I can trust a battery to be truly lifePO4 made in china. China sells so many fake things, cheap mppt charge controllers that are really pwm. Fake fotec ssd relays. It's so easy to fake a battery as being lifePO4 at that point
no offense i would rather set thru an unedited vid that is a bit longer as it gives you more insight to your thinking and so i can learn what is going on with a bit more detail :) love your videos ,work you do ,and how you explain everything
Hey Paul, thanks for the input. I have issues talking to a camera, have always been uncomfortable in front of them and trying to make videos concise. As I get more comfortable and don't mince my words so frequently I'm bound to do less edited videos. Cheers
Probably a dumb quest Im on to, but Im considering to build a 48v50or60ah battery pack for my 2 cargobikes,,
I want to use it for longer trips were I from time to time need to charge the pack,,
But Im also hooked on the Molicel P42, but the safety in LTO vs Li-ion should be so much better,, ❓❓❓
I don't think a dumb question. The P42 is a good cell. I was initially going to build my pack with 18650s as I am able to get a bunch of them for free. I joined a DIY battery pack build page on facebook. I have never seen any one collection of as many houses burnt to the ground as I did in that group. Altho in most cases it was likely the error of the pack builder and I'd be mindful of risks etc. I still felt uncomfortable doing it knowing there is so much at risk. You could have an electronic failure in a BMS and all of a sudden your pack catches fire... Look at the LFP packs also, they are a safe and more affordable option. That being said... I think if they are bikes and you are not charging them in your house, the cost of damage from potential fire would be fairly low. The issue with LTO and LFP is fairly low energy density which is a big deal on a bike.
Yeah I have two battleborn lithium iron phosphate and I show 99.49% charging them at about 35 amps and and discharging them at less than 10 amps
Hey pretty interested in these batteries. Could you do a video on the BMS for these LTO batteries. Its the only thing stopping me from going down this path.
Am about to do one... but working pretty hard on the truck getting it ready to take away for Christmas. The BMS is not a big problem or deal, depending on your requirements.
@@brendontait6968 yeah cool!
LTO? PFFFF.
Life4PO? PFFFF
Solid state baby!! Yeah!!!
Hello, I need your guidance. To charge this 28 volt and 400 amp battery so that it works continuously without interruption, what kind of charger with what ampere and voltage is needed to connect to a 24 to 220 power converter, the output of the device connected to The converter is about 3600 watts. Can this battery be connected in series and parallel at the same time?
Flick me a message on Instagram
Would you share the mod you made to the power meter, please show were you connected the other power source to inside the watt meter?
Hey, super simple... the power meter has an input for auxiliary power
@@brendontait6968 thanks
Use a large like 20c or bigger load to really find out the health of individual cells. Keeping the c discharge at below c will not show much variation in voltage but you will see a different resistance number among the cells with a higher load revealing cells sagging and show you the health of each cell. The higher reistance cells will heat up much higher and will get worse with each cycle.
The more I learn of this battery type, the more I like it. 6c charge & discharge. Full charge in 10 mins (6c). Up to 25k cycles, -50 to +60C operating range.
Do they like other Lifepo styles, prefer 30% to 80% discharge / charge range for greatest lifecycle? cant seem to find that info.
Hey Jonathan, I don't think they care so much about being held at a low state of charge, however... like other Li chemistries I think they hate the mixture of hot and high SOC. This is the only condition that I've found so far that seems to limit their life.
@@brendontait6968 the best measure incorporates the energy I love having to give batteries a second life and Manufacturing new ones for the original application over and over again. We know that this might go down in terms of the number of Cycles given what we hear about the highest density research in which it will be released to the real world when it reaches the minimum number of cycles that the real world will tolerate.
So those who talked about lithium iron phosphate having comparable numbers or misleading people. They are not counting the energy to engineer Finance build ship dispose of Etc multiple times.
The rule has notable exceptions. Because of the increasing efficiency per square mile or kilometer I'm converting photons to electron voltage the optimal cost engineering for number of years is no longer number of decades but even for many climates the life expectancy of the extremely lightweight extremely high efficiency no glass no rigidity panels which you don't have to orient towards the Sun but can simply lay on the ground that is what makes sense given the ultimate cost engineering where you put out these Sheetz for the first half decade and maybe if you're doing electrolysis you have the electrolyzers cellular Lee distributed to the fields pumping water extracting gas. That's how you cost engineer. The idea that we will be wasting land in many places on foldable text is also insane. Electricity is becoming increasingly useless and I don't expect the demand to increase over time. I do expect photons to be used more that we will drink less processed corn syrup and more engineered platonically manufactured nutrition.
But the main thing is that electricity is already so cheap round-trip efficiency doesn't really matter unless you are dealing with a very limited roof like on a RV and are not getting your energy from the grid primarily with some sort of a rational justification for that.
This is why I opposed the financial shenanigans with SunPower. This company has the solution and it's getting away from the insanely expensive currently I'm controversially reported bottleneck for glass. Glass has nothing to do with foldable ticks it is a legacy cost for the bank. the bank wants to get a fraudulent representation that the future Net Present Value will allow the solar farm to continue to earn money lol. We know that the panels being engineered for half a century are going to be pulled within a decade and at their manufacturing cost is about 1000 per cent more 10 panels which are far more efficient I need to be reconditioned after half a decade. but we don't have a conscience in the manufacturing Arena it's all about exploiting the ignorance of do-gooders. China is an evil entity there are design for solar Farms is consummately corrupt. Lightweight flexible high efficiency cells last a long time. It's okay to not wash the windows because you don't have Windows but instead just changed the sheets from time to time. Who does that who buys sheets based upon how many years they can leave them on the bed without washing them? when it comes to solar panels only the entirety of the world.
Brendon, do you think the charge efficiency will go significantly down if you charge these batteries in freezing temperatures, similar to LiOn/LiPo batteries?
If you charge regular lithium batteries in freezing, they die? But no, The efficiency seems pretty good in freezing and would likely be better if the voltage was maintained for absorption rather than removed when it hit 2.8V
@@brendontait6968 Yes, they may become unstable very quickly. Their capacity becomes reduced. Not a good idea, generally. Im thinking of reducing the charge current but not sure how well that will work.
Awesome test Brendon! Just as my real world experience with these cells, they perform to or above specification. My advice: do not listen to everything Will Prowse says. He's wrong about these LTO cells.
Thanks Daan, I think he agrees that he had bad cells or something went wrong and they actually do have decent efficiency.
@@brendontait6968 still he's very dismissive about LTO chemistry. Yeah they're not the cheapest or the lightest but for overland or heavy use cases or colder climates they're awesome!
@@daan3298 agree
Did anyone watch my LTO part 2 video? I pulled full capacity.
Why is everyone thinking that I disagree with Brendon? I like this video and I had the same results as Brendon. I also had grade b cells in the first video, and I mentioned that in the video as well.
In applications where weight is a concern, the mediocre energy density of only about 80 Wh/kg has to be considered.
Brendan I dont have a clue about any of this stuff, one question I have, tell me how many I need to order for a real good off grid living setup? I'll just pay someone to rig it for me. Thanks in advance mate, loved your videos
Cheers, hate to be that guy.... but it all depends... how much power do you use? (my house uses 10kWh/day - my mates house uses 120kWh/day) how many cloudy days do you get in a row? How many sunshine hours do you get per month?
@@brendontait6968 I should have been more clear, it's for a campervan. I am based in Ireland, so I wouldn't count on the sun alot 😂😂 but I want to travel across Europe and wanted a real good battery and off grid setup
Possibly stupid question here, perhaps I missed the obvious: what kind of charge controller is suitable to this type of batteries (in an RV/campervan context)?
Hey... with the pack configuration I made it should be compatible with most solar, alternator charging systems.
@@brendontait6968 thanks for replying! Appreciated! So, perhaps that's why I didn't find much specifics on that topic. So, I have a good quality wallpower battery charger, a good quality electronic battery (de)coupler for alternator based chargin and a good quality solar charge regulator (currently connected to conventional batteries). That setup would in principle "just work" with the LTOs as far as you can tell? That'd be cool.
Would a battery like this be effective for powering something like an electric jetboard, where a high amp load is common
Hey yeah, they would work. Although their energy density is low, their specific power density is fairly high. There would be better chemistries for that application tho, everyone has its pros and cons.
@@brendontait6968 thank you,....if you were building a jet board, what battery solution do you think would be best?..and do you have any group buys for those batteries?
How do you get on with the low voltage at low state of charge situation? Does your inverter tolerate that well? When the voltage falls the current rises, so it could stain the input side of the inverter more. Maybe your inverter is over rated anyway, or maybe even at 1.8V or 2.0V per cell you're still inside its ratings, but thought I'd ask :-)
Hey Fredio, sounds like you've been listening to Prowse too much. 🤣
These cells store little energy from 1.8-2.0V, their useful voltage range is 2.0-2.55V between the charge/discharge knees. I have an 11S pack which gives me a useful voltage range of 22-28V which slots in perfectly with most any 24V inverter requirements. My inverter is an optimistic 6kVA (more likely 5kVA), I'm fused at 400A, so plenty of headroom. Cheers.
@@brendontait6968 Thanks, I don't listen to anyone, though. I was basing that off your recorded curves. That's a decent answer but doesn't specifically call out the lower voltage limit of your unit, may I ask what that is? Guessing it's something like 20V as 10V would be pretty normal on 12v nominal gear. In which case your math is A okay :-D
There still is a voltage droop in the battery. if your efficiency is close to 1 then this seemingly small loss can be 1/2 your losses.
Add a V-meter to the battery.
If you don't want to hassle recording the discharge and charge voltage profile, just measure the voltage at begging and end of both charge and discharge and assume strate line between.
May want to take a few measurements at top off voltage and down 200mV to where the curve is a relatively straight line.
Or do a 100-0% and a 90% to 10% cycle to see how much top off efficiency changes as a function of charge rate. Not using constant current at end will help efficiency also
i have a question if you have time and know the answer...im trying to charge lishen cells with a rectifier...im having trobles as the cells resistance is low so the pack is seen as a short by the surcuit braker...iv tried resistors on the ac side but im losing a LOT of power through the resisters (kettle/oven eliment/light globe iron etc)..im trying to make a light simple charger for a bike...trying to charge very fast....what answers do you have for limiting currant/raising resistance?
Hey Russell, unfortunately you need a current limiting power supply. I'm not sure what you are charging it through... rectified straight from mains? It may be possible to use an old school arc welder primary as a ballast, using the choke to adjust the current flow. Let me know how you are currently charging and we can try figure something out.
@@brendontait6968 thank you very much for taking the time to help me...yes i first used a rectifier strait from the mains but it trips surcuit brakers then i moved to risistors (kettle etc) in line on the ac side but they gobble up a lot of power and my charging becomes slow.you have given me clues im reading now about reactance.i have a capasitor out of a microwave?..im in australia with 240vac 50 herts.
Yeah a capacitive reactance supply will work, but might be slower than you want? I'd probably be looking at an inductive supply as I think you are likely to get more power through it. Be careful, playing with big power can be dangerous.
@@brendontait6968 yes im scared of dangers..especialy ones i dont know about...yes i do want to charge fast..as fast as a house hold out let will allow 2400watts or 10amps at 240v i think is practical as there might be other apliances on the line... the battery pack drags the charging voltage down when flat (determined by the motor controller cut off) 28.5/29 volts dc .so about 80 amps there....i like your advice to go for the inductive supply and where i might scavange one from an old welder....my first thaughts are try bothe a capasator and a choke seperately but i have no idea of the specifications i will be looking for? or if i just try what ever i can find?
I was thinking of strapping 11 of these across my 24v FLA bank to help reduce voltage droop during short high current surges. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Hey... it's not something that I have done or even considered. It would work. However, some things to consider.... when your voltage is say up at 27V, the LTO will want to stay at 27V whereas the FLA will naturally want to drop to roasting (say 26V) therefore the pack will be self discharged (to the resting voltage of the FLA). A lot of people will say unreservedly that you cannot do it. But as long as you take things like this into account it will likely work. Disclaimer tho, am inexperienced with it.
You talked about the voltage variation between charging and discharging for FLA and I wondered if you had any figures for the LTO cells.
Do you feel any temperature change?
I wasn't looking for it, but when I handled the battery, I didn't notice any difference