If you notice, Unplugged added stuff to cool the batt, inside the car, they talked about it in the interview of electrek. And made holes in the front bumper.
The model 3(& y) isnt actually limited by the battery temp when it comes to performance as it can easily maintain the pack temp at 40 C (as demonstrated). The limiting factor is actually the motors (and maybe the converters) as the stator temps reach 90C forcing the car to power limit.
@@johnchartrand5910 were? Bjorn himself tested the model 3 several times with 200 km/h acceleration runs on the auto bahn aswell as reaffirmed it in this video by saying "and it maintained 40C⁰ even though i was doing 200". The temps when supercharging are much higher than when pushing the car (50 - 62C⁰) due to tesla exploiting a phenomenon called "power fade pushback", allowing them to have a very aggresive charging (C(watts / Wh capacity) over SoC) curve.
@@johnchartrand5910 pikes is another story. I was discussing the general power limits all performance model 3/y owners experience when pushing the car on normal roads. Pikes peak is a extreme example. But i agree. Pikes peak pushes the car so hard that both the battery and motors, so, the entire powertrain reaches the maximum temps allowed by the car.
When reenabling track mode the compressor needs to build up pressure again, this will take a minute or so, after the evaporator has reached the target temperature the compressor will either shut off or throttle down. You can see that the pump flow was pretty much the same, so track mode probably reduces the target temperature for the evaporator or the glycol running back from it into the system.
With those data and outside temperature is possible to calculate the thermal capacity of the battery, it's an interesting number, useful to estimate the passive cooling of the car in various climates. Always Be Calculating
I would love to know what temperature the battery gets to when the image on the screen shows an orange battery. But this was all very interesting, as always.
Well-engineered turbocharged cars (think German premium) keep the oil circulating through the turbo and the fan blowing for a few minutes after shutting down the engine. Other brands (Japanese in particular) are known not to do that. So it's good to know Tesla is taking the best off the old world while trying to reinvent the car.
Bjørn, can you imagine why pilots let the turbines idle for a while after landing? They look at their instruments and if the ITT (inter turbine temperature) is still too high, they cool the turbines down faster with idling. To protect the turbines.
With turbo ICE cars you're also supposed to idle the engine for a minute after a long trip because the turbo bearing is oil cooled and if you turn off the engine the oil stops flowing and that can cook the oil and damage the bearing with heat soak.
Reiner Schischke I think you can attribute that to the cooling design of a vehicle as if there is good enough cooling, the battery and motor will stay cool enough!
Bjorn - the passive cooling rate is affected by the delta between the pack and ambient temperature. Worth recording ambients when documenting pack cooling rates.
Maybe battery inlet drops as you turn on the climate control because the car is using the heat from the battery to heat up the cabin (same as ICE cars).
It’s a crime for a turbocharged car to idle for 5-10'. If you just drive for the last 1-2' without pushing the car it’s more than fine. Also, modern turbos are cooled by water and oil.
cooling is always better while moving. At the track, i saw lots of people pit to cool their engines. All i did was run 2 laps slowly with low revs and not braking hard, then the car was ready to roll again. Maybe tesla should have some huge actuated active cooling ducts, keep them closed for aero while cruising, but allow them to open up for massive cooling when the car is being hammered
iceagecoming If you remove the fog lights thats a great spot to add more cooling in the front. Another option for track focused Teslas is to modify the hood. Since there are no big engine in the front. You have so many options to add extra cooling by modifying the fenders or the hood to scoop in extra air
@@ankjaers Maybe not a crime, but I get what they're saying. If you know you're going to stop and park, it made sense to just take it easy in the last few minutes of driving, while air is still going through the car, then park and be done. Driving hard and then just idling for 5-10, when you knew you had to stop, just seems avoidable (again, maybe not a *crime*, you get it).
If you turn on the A/C and close the garage door, the garage will get hotter and hotter. By how much I don't know, but this would be a good test in a future video.
I think the Model 3 overheating and the Taycan overheating is not the same thing and isn't really comparable. The Taycan has 265 kw regen, that stresses the Battery far more than the ~90 kw max regen the Model 3 can do, also the battery in a Taycan has to deliver much more power (460 kw in normal mode) to the motors than the Model 3 has to (360 kw). If the Tesla overheats, it's most likely to be the drivetrain before the battery has a chance to overheat, while the Taycan's drivetrain can handle all the heat but the battery is the limiting factor. In all of the Nürburgring videos the Model 3's breaks overheat before the battery does so naturally you can not push as you want until the battery overheats, with the Taycan's carbon ceramic breaks you can basically push hard and pull out the maximum performance until the battery overheats, there is no limiting factor. If you watch Misha Charoudin's video of the Model 3 on the Nürburgring the breaks started overheating just after 2 minutes into the lap ! So even though Misha took a brake during the lap to cool down the breaks and didn't push the car as hard as he could the battery still overheated before finishing the first lap and remember the Model 3 could have been pushed way harder if he didn't cool down the brakes or if the Model 3 had proper carbon ceramics, in that case the Model 3's battery would have overheated during the middle of the first lap. In fact there are many videos on TH-cam in which the Model 3's batteries overheat in track mode on a short 2:30 minutes lap, like Silverstone, when pushed hard. If the Taycans battery also "only" had to deliver 360 kw like the Model 3 and its regen would be cut down from 265 kw to ~90kw like the Model 3 and the Taycans breaks would start overheating 2 minutes into the lap, the Taycan's battery would have no problems at all with overheating too. With the numbers the Taycan is offering, doing 1 full lap and a half of hard driving without overheating at all is actually remarkable in my opinion. Also the Model 3 on Pikes peak had modifications to the car, including modifications to the cooling system...
@@insevanhouts Taycan (93,4 kwh) has a 20% bigger battery than the Model 3 (75 kwh), if you look at the total battery package (not all usable). However, whats actually important is the usable amount without the buffer, the Model 3 has 73, 5 kwh of usable battery with a total power output of 360 kw and the Taycan has 86,1 kwh of usable energy with a total power output of 460 kw, that makes the Taycans battery actually only 15% bigger. If you then look at how much power per 1 kwh the Model 3 and the Taycan produce, you will see that the Model 3 produces 4,9 kw per 1 kwh while the Taycan produces 5,3 kw per 1kwh, meaning the Taycan produces 8% more power per 1kwh, if you than factor in the Taycan recharging with up to 265 kw while the Model 3 only recharges with up to ~90 kw, the battery of the Taycan recharges and dischargers far stronger than the battery on the Model 3, although the Taycan's battery is bigger it still has to deliver and recuperate more power per 1 kwh than a Model 3 so my initial point still stands.
@@AOTanoos22 Great calculations! But you actually have to look at the non usable amount of battery kWh. As the physical cells delivering the energy are still present.
@@AOTanoos22 And about regen, that's a design choice. If the arguably pointless feature (on a track it is), makes the battery overheat, that's bad design. As soon as you see the battery temperature rise, you disable regen, right ?
Inse van houts i don’t know about using the total battery package including the non usable bit. I mean the buffer is always full and doesn’t discharge, so i believe out of the 93,4 kwh in the Taycan only 86,1 kwh are used to deliver power, the rest is in standby all the time to ensure the battery doesn’t get damaged. If you are right, then both cars deliver 4,9kw per 1 kwh and are equally stressed in terms of power delivery, how ever not in recuperation. I don’t think a high recuperation mode on track is a bad thing, as it helps to stop the car in addition to the friction breaks, it in fact gives you additional performance. If you turned it off you would loose performance in terms of stopping power and increase the stress on the friction breakes. I mean the Tesla Model 3’s default mode in track mode on regen is at high and thats how i see the majority of model 3’s being driven on track’s like the Nürburgring video i mentioned above. Also i don’t think its a bad design choice as the Taycan’s battery still takes far more beating than a Model 3 to overheat and can handle it, however not continuously, Porsche ensured that the Taycan can take one full lap on the Nürburgring without any issues while being driven by their own in house racing driver as hard as possible, meaning to the absolute limits. Thats what they claim in marketing and they delivered. There is no other EV, accept for the 1 Mio+ EV’s that can claim that, sure the Model 3 is a great performance car, especially for that price, but its more suited towards small 2 minutes tracks and can’t handle a single lap on the Nürburgring (~8 min lap) without its breaks or battery starting to overheat.
With my Model S it actively cooles down the battery during supercharging if the SOC reaches 83%. So if I charge to 95%, the battery has cooled down to 34°C meanwhile. Maybe this "trick" also works with model 3. Another advantage is that it then doesn't take the energy from the battery to further cool down. If I charge only to 80%, it sucks for a while 1.3kW to cool down.
I think tesla is smart enough to build some safety features in. Like when the battery temperature is raising after entering sleep mode, there must be some safety trigger to wake up the car and start cooling the battery again right?
Speaking of turbo charged ICE cars, I don't know about the "don't turn off the car immediatly, let the turbo cool down" thing...Why ? I have a turbo ICE car with stop&start feature, and if I do like 10km at 140km/h then enter a city and arrive to a red light, engine just stops as soon as I get less than 10km/h with no gear on...And it won't start until I press the clutch pedal. So, is S&S killing turbos ? Idk, but I made 40.000km and no turbo problem.
Cool down turbo car for 5-10 minuttes? My previous car was tuned from 150hp to 230hp software and exhaust only. The turbo was watercooled and everything had 270.000km on it. Never had a problem with the turbo and did not see any burned oil at oil change.
Lots of Online Views already on the Mazda mx30 th-cam.com/video/v_kB2BWdU9M/w-d-xo.html Seems to be a popular reviewer with 140,000 views of this car reviewed by AutoGefuhl and from Comments people seem to like the car.
Doesn't seem so fast? A lot of mass to cool down compared to the oil in an engine. I think it would be interesting for you to repeat the test while moving Bjorn, just like in a performance turbo car, after a spirited run, you always keep the revs low for a while on the way home to cool everything down again. What if you just cruised with trackmode on, surely the cooling will be much more efficient. My guess is you'd go from 60 degrees to 40 in 5 minutes.
@@bjornnyland yes with a ton of modifications done to the cooling system including extra holes in bumper and others. It does a decent job but still far from a true track car but for the $$$ it works very well.
Model 3 will overheat and start to trottle performance onnyhe 1st lap of the Nirgburgring lap! Get your facts right. Refer to the same not that old Misha from Apex racing Nurgburgring lap.
If you notice, Unplugged added stuff to cool the batt, inside the car, they talked about it in the interview of electrek. And made holes in the front bumper.
The model 3(& y) isnt actually limited by the battery temp when it comes to performance as it can easily maintain the pack temp at 40 C (as demonstrated).
The limiting factor is actually the motors (and maybe the converters) as the stator temps reach 90C forcing the car to power limit.
Not true as shown in the video, the battery is hot and overheated in 3 mins
@@johnchartrand5910 were? Bjorn himself tested the model 3 several times with 200 km/h acceleration runs on the auto bahn aswell as reaffirmed it in this video by saying "and it maintained 40C⁰ even though i was doing 200".
The temps when supercharging are much higher than when pushing the car (50 - 62C⁰) due to tesla exploiting a phenomenon called "power fade pushback", allowing them to have a very aggresive charging (C(watts / Wh capacity) over SoC) curve.
@@kevin42 Pikes Peak hill climb, battery is red in 3mins with decreased output. Don't confuse charging with ability to output power from battery
@@johnchartrand5910 pikes is another story. I was discussing the general power limits all performance model 3/y owners experience when pushing the car on normal roads. Pikes peak is a extreme example.
But i agree. Pikes peak pushes the car so hard that both the battery and motors, so, the entire powertrain reaches the maximum temps allowed by the car.
@@kevin42 anyone turning on track mode is not driving typically.
When reenabling track mode the compressor needs to build up pressure again, this will take a minute or so, after the evaporator has reached the target temperature the compressor will either shut off or throttle down.
You can see that the pump flow was pretty much the same, so track mode probably reduces the target temperature for the evaporator or the glycol running back from it into the system.
P
With those data and outside temperature is possible to calculate the thermal capacity of the battery, it's an interesting number, useful to estimate the passive cooling of the car in various climates. Always Be Calculating
I would love to know what temperature the battery gets to when the image on the screen shows an orange battery.
But this was all very interesting, as always.
What is the correlation when its "pre-conditioning for supercharging?"
Well-engineered turbocharged cars (think German premium) keep the oil circulating through the turbo and the fan blowing for a few minutes after shutting down the engine. Other brands (Japanese in particular) are known not to do that. So it's good to know Tesla is taking the best off the old world while trying to reinvent the car.
Ah that explains why all the expensive cars with big engines are so loud after you turn them off. Always wondered.
Interesting stuff!
You could just watch or log the data for the compressor load as well as the coolant pumps directly
Bjørn, can you imagine why pilots let the turbines idle for a while after landing? They look at their instruments and if the ITT (inter turbine temperature) is still too high, they cool the turbines down faster with idling. To protect the turbines.
With turbo ICE cars you're also supposed to idle the engine for a minute after a long trip because the turbo bearing is oil cooled and if you turn off the engine the oil stops flowing and that can cook the oil and damage the bearing with heat soak.
TheFPSPower modern cars don’t really have this issue, with older cars yes you needed to do that!
@@harsimranbansal5355 The problem with modern BEVs is not the drive motor, it is the battery with the narrow temperature range of its cell chemistry.
Reiner Schischke I think you can attribute that to the cooling design of a vehicle as if there is good enough cooling, the battery and motor will stay cool enough!
@@TheFPSPower Compare the ball bearings with those of gas turbines rotating at 36,000 rpm. The ball bearings are also actively cooled with oil.
Bjorn - the passive cooling rate is affected by the delta between the pack and ambient temperature. Worth recording ambients when documenting pack cooling rates.
Of course.
Very nice Analysis thank you!
Maybe battery inlet drops as you turn on the climate control because the car is using the heat from the battery to heat up the cabin (same as ICE cars).
It’s a crime for a turbocharged car to idle for 5-10'. If you just drive for the last 1-2' without pushing the car it’s more than fine.
Also, modern turbos are cooled by water and oil.
cooling is always better while moving. At the track, i saw lots of people pit to cool their engines. All i did was run 2 laps slowly with low revs and not braking hard, then the car was ready to roll again. Maybe tesla should have some huge actuated active cooling ducts, keep them closed for aero while cruising, but allow them to open up for massive cooling when the car is being hammered
How come that is a crime? 10 minutes is overkill, we can agree on that. But 2-3 minutes really lets the turbo + gearbox get some time to cool down.
iceagecoming If you remove the fog lights thats a great spot to add more cooling in the front. Another option for track focused Teslas is to modify the hood. Since there are no big engine in the front. You have so many options to add extra cooling by modifying the fenders or the hood to scoop in extra air
@@ankjaers Maybe not a crime, but I get what they're saying. If you know you're going to stop and park, it made sense to just take it easy in the last few minutes of driving, while air is still going through the car, then park and be done. Driving hard and then just idling for 5-10, when you knew you had to stop, just seems avoidable (again, maybe not a *crime*, you get it).
@@tHoM0r Teslas have active flaps in front of the radiators.
UP has a crazy cooling system for their battery.
You should take the car to a track and see how high the temperature gets
If you turn on the A/C and close the garage door, the garage will get hotter and hotter. By how much I don't know, but this would be a good test in a future video.
Not really. The garage is not very insulated. The heat will escape through the walls and roof.
I think the Model 3 overheating and the Taycan overheating is not the same thing and isn't really comparable. The Taycan has 265 kw regen, that stresses the Battery far more than the ~90 kw max regen the Model 3 can do, also the battery in a Taycan has to deliver much more power (460 kw in normal mode) to the motors than the Model 3 has to (360 kw). If the Tesla overheats, it's most likely to be the drivetrain before the battery has a chance to overheat, while the Taycan's drivetrain can handle all the heat but the battery is the limiting factor. In all of the Nürburgring videos the Model 3's breaks overheat before the battery does so naturally you can not push as you want until the battery overheats, with the Taycan's carbon ceramic breaks you can basically push hard and pull out the maximum performance until the battery overheats, there is no limiting factor. If you watch Misha Charoudin's video of the Model 3 on the Nürburgring the breaks started overheating just after 2 minutes into the lap ! So even though Misha took a brake during the lap to cool down the breaks and didn't push the car as hard as he could the battery still overheated before finishing the first lap and remember the Model 3 could have been pushed way harder if he didn't cool down the brakes or if the Model 3 had proper carbon ceramics, in that case the Model 3's battery would have overheated during the middle of the first lap. In fact there are many videos on TH-cam in which the Model 3's batteries overheat in track mode on a short 2:30 minutes lap, like Silverstone, when pushed hard. If the Taycans battery also "only" had to deliver 360 kw like the Model 3 and its regen would be cut down from 265 kw to ~90kw like the Model 3 and the Taycans breaks would start overheating 2 minutes into the lap, the Taycan's battery would have no problems at all with overheating too. With the numbers the Taycan is offering, doing 1 full lap and a half of hard driving without overheating at all is actually remarkable in my opinion. Also the Model 3 on Pikes peak had modifications to the car, including modifications to the cooling system...
The taycan's battery is also more than 25% larger in capacity so the difference in power output is insignificant
@@insevanhouts Taycan (93,4 kwh) has a 20% bigger battery than the Model 3 (75 kwh), if you look at the total battery package (not all usable). However, whats actually important is the usable amount without the buffer, the Model 3 has 73, 5 kwh of usable battery with a total power output of 360 kw and the Taycan has 86,1 kwh of usable energy with a total power output of 460 kw, that makes the Taycans battery actually only 15% bigger. If you then look at how much power per 1 kwh the Model 3 and the Taycan produce, you will see that the Model 3 produces 4,9 kw per 1 kwh while the Taycan produces 5,3 kw per 1kwh, meaning the Taycan produces 8% more power per 1kwh, if you than factor in the Taycan recharging with up to 265 kw while the Model 3 only recharges with up to ~90 kw, the battery of the Taycan recharges and dischargers far stronger than the battery on the Model 3, although the Taycan's battery is bigger it still has to deliver and recuperate more power per 1 kwh than a Model 3 so my initial point still stands.
@@AOTanoos22 Great calculations! But you actually have to look at the non usable amount of battery kWh. As the physical cells delivering the energy are still present.
@@AOTanoos22 And about regen, that's a design choice. If the arguably pointless feature (on a track it is), makes the battery overheat, that's bad design.
As soon as you see the battery temperature rise, you disable regen, right ?
Inse van houts i don’t know about using the total battery package including the non usable bit. I mean the buffer is always full and doesn’t discharge, so i believe out of the 93,4 kwh in the Taycan only 86,1 kwh are used to deliver power, the rest is in standby all the time to ensure the battery doesn’t get damaged. If you are right, then both cars deliver 4,9kw per 1 kwh and are equally stressed in terms of power delivery, how ever not in recuperation. I don’t think a high recuperation mode on track is a bad thing, as it helps to stop the car in addition to the friction breaks, it in fact gives you additional performance. If you turned it off you would loose performance in terms of stopping power and increase the stress on the friction breakes. I mean the Tesla Model 3’s default mode in track mode on regen is at high and thats how i see the majority of model 3’s being driven on track’s like the Nürburgring video i mentioned above. Also i don’t think its a bad design choice as the Taycan’s battery still takes far more beating than a Model 3 to overheat and can handle it, however not continuously, Porsche ensured that the Taycan can take one full lap on the Nürburgring without any issues while being driven by their own in house racing driver as hard as possible, meaning to the absolute limits. Thats what they claim in marketing and they delivered. There is no other EV, accept for the 1 Mio+ EV’s that can claim that, sure the Model 3 is a great performance car, especially for that price, but its more suited towards small 2 minutes tracks and can’t handle a single lap on the Nürburgring (~8 min lap) without its breaks or battery starting to overheat.
Would you please share how can we check the battery temperature? It seems cool.
Here for that Google Shieeeet 🤣🤣🤣
With my Model S it actively cooles down the battery during supercharging if the SOC reaches 83%. So if I charge to 95%, the battery has cooled down to 34°C meanwhile. Maybe this "trick" also works with model 3.
Another advantage is that it then doesn't take the energy from the battery to further cool down. If I charge only to 80%, it sucks for a while 1.3kW to cool down.
Good video.
I’m late arrival in this discussion about Track mode but why is it not available for MYP+?
Ask Elon
65 °C is no problem short-term if you cool it fast afterwards.
I think tesla is smart enough to build some safety features in. Like when the battery temperature is raising after entering sleep mode, there must be some safety trigger to wake up the car and start cooling the battery again right?
Yes.
Speaking of turbo charged ICE cars, I don't know about the "don't turn off the car immediatly, let the turbo cool down" thing...Why ? I have a turbo ICE car with stop&start feature, and if I do like 10km at 140km/h then enter a city and arrive to a red light, engine just stops as soon as I get less than 10km/h with no gear on...And it won't start until I press the clutch pedal. So, is S&S killing turbos ? Idk, but I made 40.000km and no turbo problem.
Cool down turbo car for 5-10 minuttes?
My previous car was tuned from 150hp to 230hp software and exhaust only.
The turbo was watercooled and everything had 270.000km on it.
Never had a problem with the turbo and did not see any burned oil at oil change.
Can you please test Stats App adding phantom drain if there’s any ?
Mazda MX30 review coming anytime? :)
No
@@bjornnyland aaaahhh shiiieeet
Lots of Online Views already on the Mazda mx30 th-cam.com/video/v_kB2BWdU9M/w-d-xo.html Seems to be a popular reviewer with 140,000 views of this car reviewed by AutoGefuhl and from Comments people seem to like the car.
Doesn't seem so fast? A lot of mass to cool down compared to the oil in an engine. I think it would be interesting for you to repeat the test while moving Bjorn, just like in a performance turbo car, after a spirited run, you always keep the revs low for a while on the way home to cool everything down again. What if you just cruised with trackmode on, surely the cooling will be much more efficient. My guess is you'd go from 60 degrees to 40 in 5 minutes.
But how about cooling with AC while you drive with 90km/h in track mode? Usualy the AC is there more efficient and the temperature should drop faster.
Track Mode already uses AC.
@@bjornnyland I understood that, I was thinking about keeping the car running, so the AC can work more efficient.
model 3 battery was hot/orange in 3mins up Pikes peak
But it went back to green after not many seconds.
@@bjornnyland yes with a ton of modifications done to the cooling system including extra holes in bumper and others. It does a decent job but still far from a true track car but for the $$$ it works very well.
Isn't fast discharging = more heat? i mean acceleration at each corner causes heat.
Yes
Sounds like track mode must be like my S cooling after sitting unplugged at 80% charge #batterygate, #chargegate
👍
Model 3 will overheat and start to trottle performance onnyhe 1st lap of the Nirgburgring lap! Get your facts right. Refer to the same not that old Misha from Apex racing Nurgburgring lap.
long time no see your vdo
You should subscribe to my channel then.
Sure!! K'Tum
Well, i’m kinda early😏👍
Google shiiiieet 😂
First