Good job Bjorn ! My main takeaway is that in winter I will only charge to 50-60%% (instead of 80%) to have more regen. (As I have a short commute and already use Stats for Tesla with smart battery prep (currently more reliable/better than Scheduled Departure). This seems like a good way to further increase regen and thus efficiency in cold weather)
Regarding performance models and acceleration times: Tesla seems to be drawing max amps out of its battery in performance models for max performance. As such, any change in max battery output also impacts the performance. Even though it is great that customers are allowed to get most from their cars, it also means the experience might be inconsistent with varying SOC, temps, etc. Since amps are what really limit what a cable can carry, switching to an 800V system would almost double the throughput (assuming enough parallel cells to support it). Once switched to 800V, I think Tesla could then not have to use everything battery can give, and make it a much more consistent experience. I'm sure something like this will happen. This, of course, helps with charging speeds, too. The battery cells will still be impacted from temps, etc, but if the cell layout is optimized for 800V, you could probably get away with less battery conditioning, since your speeds would be almost double of whatever they were.
I didn't realise that battery temperature has such a big effect on power output. I don't often drive long distances and, since I've owned my Model 3 Performance, I've not needed to use a SuperCharger and only ever slow charged it at home at 3.8 kW (16A). So my battery is almost permanently in a cold state. Very rarely do I have no regen limit at all, even at the end of my journeys. The car still accelerates pretty hard but it's never seemed to have that killer bite that the Model 3 Performance had that I test drove prior to buying my car, even when it's at a relatively high state of charge. I thought that maybe I had just got used to the acceleration after the initial shock of the test drive. Right, OK, that's it! This weekend I'm going to drive to my nearest SuperCharger and charge it up to over 90% to see what difference a nicely warmed up high state of charge battery makes!
@@EddieGriffith2802 No sure what part of the world you are in but London Tesla have version 3 250kw (form model 3) stalls.... there is a recent post from Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged Channel. I didn't know staring at a screen with a charge status (and no noise, or anything else) could be so exciting! [location Park Royal Supercharger 52 Dukes Road W3 0SL London]
@@ouethojlkjn Yes, I'm in the UK but a fair way from London. The motorway services on the M40 near Warwick is my nearest SuperCharger. Would be interesting to see a V3 SuperCharger in action at some point though. No doubt they'll be rolling out to more locations over the next couple of years or so.
The addition of a Super Capacitor with a capacity of say 1 kWh would be sufficient to remove any power limits or regen limits. Would be nice to have something like this. It wouldn't help with charging limits though since those are long duration power levels.
wait until the next battery drivetrain event in April. I think we will see the new plaid drivetrain with an Hybrid battery like what you explained. Hope someday to change my battery pack to this hybrid
thats kinda what we've done with smartphones during snowboarding. keeping the smartphone in one of the jacket warm inner pockets, so that it didn't shot down with 30% akku, if we wanted to call a friend. keeping it in a cold outer pockets, the smartphone could shot off very fast during high consumption.
Would you recommend to enable scheduled charging so you start with a fully charged battery but also a warm battery for a road trip? There will be also a difference between higher and lower SOC and the temperature because it charges slowly at the end and therfore the battery cools down. It's there a sweet spot? Maybe charge only to 70% from low SOC so the battery is warm and you are not driving so far the next charger and therefore the battery can't cool down much. Love these kind of deep dives!
Good analysis of Battery stats, with my 2020 Soul EV I am going to test out surging before a charging session (hard accelerate and regen as you have shown before) to warm up the battery and see about improving rapid charging session during 9-12 Deg.C. days especially when not running at over 100KM/hr for extended period of time.
My 1st gen volt felt downright sluggish on the colder winter days. I looked forward to the spring/summer days when it felt significantly peppier with the warm battery. All BEVs are affected by this.
Leaf has warm up system but it for keeping only enough temperature to prevent freeze electrolyte in cells. Start warming up in around -20°C and stop around -10°C (if I good remember; for sure both minus temperatures). There is video on YT of one of professor how he assemble disassembled Leaf battery. He shows all that things and info stickers. Human couldn’t feel that temperature changes.
@@Soordhin And what if you want to charge somewhere else? In Europe there are lots of charging stations, that are significantly faster than Superchargers.
@@wermagst select a Supercharger somewhere not too far from your preferred charging point as destination on the navigation, let the car think you are going there and precondition the battery. Then just divert to the other charger. Like a bait and switch.
Thanks Bjorn It would be interesting to go further in cold hell... Being in Canada with the battery at -15C (right after leaving the ski hill), I had 9KW at the super charger with SOC at 40%
Hi, I performed some test with my eNiro Dashboard. BMS provide CAN/OBD values for battery module temperature 01, 02, 03, 04 - bms uses this values, not other bat.min/max, outside, etc.. If weakest value is least 15°C BMS allow you charge with 120A and more.. Another limit is 25°C ... this allows you charge with 150A and more .. 15°C is also required for 50kW chargers, otherwise you will start with speed 39...43kWh.. it will increased when weakest module reach 15°C temperature.. Another 25°C limit is required for UFC charging.. with temperatures under 25°C you got only 51...55kW. Bellow are videos with detailed graphs 01-04. But note there is another limit by SOC% (see FASTNED graph).. ~for my Eniro2020 SOC 0..46% = max.200A SOC 46-53% = max 180A SOC 53-73% = max 150A SOC 73-76% = max 90A SOC 76%.. = max 60A PS: Please anyone know how to preheat battery to 15°C/25 via OBD/CAN bus ? CAN codes to control PTC in battery over BMS, alebo heat it via liquid/thermal system. I don't want to destroy my car with random seeking:) Then I can add preheat battery before charging feature to opensource "eniro dashboard" th-cam.com/video/KvVIndSB5lM/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/aYFsG-QQusU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/2PlY2f0jLkc/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/Jg5VP2P58Yg/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/EJsuY4SBcsk/w-d-xo.html
Rapidgate in the summer is the reverse for Very Hot temps in cars without active cooling. The only way to control temps in battery is to charge slower. For Leaf, wasn't it about 45-47 C where it will start to throttle speeds? If anything I'd rather have colder temp than needed and you might warm up. Being too hot is not good in passive cooling cars because you'll never cool down while charging.
This reminds me of power and performance with ICE cars - cold weather has dense air and theoretically better engine performance (why an intercooler lowers inlet temp). BUT cold weather with dense air means more work to go the same speed through the thicker air. There are no absolutes, even with EVs eh?!
The drag racing is somewhat fair even done by fossil journalists because in the real world on the stop light you will not have time to preheat anyway. Still if you are a real car guy and want to race you will drive preheated most of the time so it is an argument to be made but anyway both test are relevant.
In reality its unfair in favour of the Tesla. If you have both cars in ideal conditions the Tesla will struggle to match the Porsche. As conditions get worse the Porsche gets a bigger and bigger advantage so if you take the average its miles faster. For instance if they're both cold at 10% the Porsche is going to leave it miles behind but that would be unfair in favour of the Porsche. The most fair would be an average of available performance over the whole spectrum of heat and charge level and again thats where the Porsche will make the Tesla look like its towing a house.
They can make a Sport mode which says in a notification: For best results be at X% battery and X degrees of temperature. The "out of the box" behaviour is quite picky for normal people, but I guess normal people would not use all power every time they run the car.
Here is something interesting too - when preheating the battery for the supercharger, the stator temperatures only increase to ~55C but when the car is plugged in to the supercharger then the stators increase temperature to > 110C. I can only guess that Tesla does not want to have such high stator temperatures when the motors are being used to drive the car. It's one of the causes of the Model 3 not being able to get > 30C when it starts supercharging in winter.
Stator temps can get to 80 C. It's inefficient and any more is a waste of power for the heat. More power you drive to motors like on highway will heat up more. City streets likely will limit how hot you can get for the lower consumption.
@@CoolSilver Highest I have seen so far is 55 but that's in the winter so I am sure they will get hotter in the summer. When stationary and supercharging they hit 112C and 115C to heat up the battery.
Does any of the lower "power states" come with dots on the right side of the power bar? Even when my cell temperature is at 25+ degrees I get power limit dots when my SoC goes below about 70%. Often the dots only show after applying full throttle. Is that something you spot too? Now I wonder if this is normal behaviour as the car can't draw max power anymore or if the car is held back by something else. Low oil pressure or an overheating component.
@@PeterStephanDK My KIA heats up the battery while DC charging even at 8C. With AC charging not heating is performed. Winter battery setting is only actived below -10C
Can confirm; when driving from the the South of the Netherlands to Switzerland, one of the superchargers (Arlon) on the route was out, so we needed to top up from 70% in Verviers (just after the start of our trip) in order to make the jump to Metz. It was rather cold, and the car struggled around 24 kW for the first minutes. M3 LR Dual Motor, that is. Subsequent charges on the route were much faster. Both because the battery had warmed up during our trip, but also because we charged from much more reasonable lower SoC.
You can say journalists should warm the battery or charge it and all the rest but if they take the Taycan and the Tesla, charge them both to full and heat them up as high as is possible it gives the Tesla the best chance it will ever have. You could also say they should race tehm both at 50% with medium heat or 10% with cold batteries. The point is at best the Tesla will struggle to match the Porsche but everywhere there is an advantage the Porsche will have it. Its performance is much less sensitive to heat or charge level which works in its favour in anything but perfect conditions. Its also likely to give it a noticably longer life. Basically its just better engineered.
@@bjornnyland Poor efficiency and range compared to cars only designed with that in mind. Thats the trade off for proper handling, better materials and a much nicer overall experience. The Taycan and the Etron are nice cars compared to other cars - not just compared to other ev's. Thats very important if we want more people to get onboard because I know a lot of people who have payed large sums of money for ev's then been disappointed with fit/finish, materials and especially noise levels - something an ev really should be good at. When people spend a lot of money there is an expectation of the product being better so for instance a Zoe is around £10k more expensive than a Clio so people expect it to be better. In reality its just as poorly built and just as noisy at anything over about 25mph so that big premium isn't getting much return. I understand in Norway things are different but thats only because the government are part funding the ev's. In the case of the Taycan and Etron they are as good as other cars at the same price with the benefit of no tailpipe. A lot of ev's have a nice motor but the car itself can be a let down.
@@bjornnyland Oh but the coldgate - no excuses on that. Its not something any ev needs to do so it shouldn't do it. I wonder why they do though? Most ev's now have battery heaters so why wouldn't they use them? Surely a software update could fix this?
It'd be interesting to understand why charge limit is 32kW while regen limit is 85kW at 70% SOC, mid temperatures. Maybe you've mentioned it somewhere else, but it seems strange that it's considered safe to regen at 85kW at this point, while DC fast charging is limited to only 32kW.
@@bjornnyland I thought that might be the case, but by the same token I guess it should hardly ever make sense to limit regen - just limit to very short bursts? And for 40% SOC and cold battery, charge limit is higher than regen limit. Does that make sense? I guess Tesla knows something clever.
I charge at home at 85% and I now get a warning message for low regenerating brake. I read before that the low regen warning was only when the battery was full charged, like above 93%. I was thinking this was due to a new software update? But may be the 85% warning is because of the winter temperature effect at night, I'm in Northern California and the temperature at night is 44 F / 7 Celsius.
Is this common across all/most EVs? Faster charging is a good selling point for Tesla (150+). But if that’s only for a few minutes does it end up more like the 75-100 that other EVs support?
The less cobalt in the battery, the more sensitive it is to the cold. Cobalt is expensive. Tesla e. g. wanted to keep it cheap and is searching for alternatives. E. g. heating up the battery by stator. Old Ioniq 1/3 of battery is cobalt. No problems at all.... New Ioniq: less cobalt=cheaper battery. Coldgate, shiiiiiiit.
Interesting. It doesn't seem that the Ioniq28 is hit as hard by this from the BMS as the TM3 is. Ioniq28 charges at 60+kW even at 1 degree battery temperature. Max Regen I've seen on Ioniq is around 78kW, no idea if this is limited by battery temperature, haven't tested.
Much more cobalt is the reason @old Ioniq. Regen max is 98 kW. Even if battery is cold (0 Degrees C.) and 100% SOC. It can regen to 102% (97% BMS). But not with full 98 kW. Above 85% SOC about 70 kW. I already got 60 kW charging speed at HPC at -3 Degrees C battery temp. Cobalt for the win...
Kind of like race bikes preheating their tyres with a warm up lap, then putting on an insulating blanket to stop the tyres from cooling down. Temp has a big effect on race tyre grip.
According to Fastned the I3 charges with increasing power (kW) up to ~87% SoC. Would be interesting to know if it can preheat the battery to avoid coldgating.
The BMW i3 charges constantly with 47/48 kW up to ~ 92 - 93 % Soc. If the car is equipped with heated front seats, then the battery has a preheating management. This might explain why when using the heating for your seat, it doesn´t cost any Range, even on the highest heating level.
You CAN preheat the model 3 battery, not just by plugging into a charger. Starting preconditioning from your phone will heat the battery once the cabin reaches temperature. Or navigate to a nearby supercharger and it will heat the battery nice and toasty warm while you drive! No need to actually plug in.
If you mean heating its becasue regen doesn't add enough to do anything noticable. If you regen at 50kW while being towed you will add the same heat as charging at 50kW. In reality regen is a small amount for a small time. Imagine 50kW for a few seconds here and there and there isn't much to be had.
@Bjørn Nyland: I just watched this video of Lotus Evija electric and they have managed to implement the thermal management system suited for race tracks, as you have spoken about. Which is to maintain the battery temperature at the right level for peak performance everytime, anytime. You got your wish :) th-cam.com/video/nODsrmsuPb8/w-d-xo.html
@@bjornnyland so battery can take higher peak if it is more constant I presume? Is that why chargers always need some time to ramp up (i.e. to get up to high amps safely)?
You can call motor journalists noobs, or you can just say that it's annoyingly difficult to get the best peformance out of an EV unless you baby it. Not that the average person should care at all about drag times apart from 14 year old specsheet warriors
@@bjornnyland Lol. Like you say, only S and X, and like I said, achieving a difference of 0.2 sec or something? Waaw. Life changing. Not important. I prefer to agree with you on battery temp being important for charging consistency. Much more relevant.
Yes it is a question. I have a raven S and even when I put a supercharger as a destination it charges slowly as if there was no battery heat function. This happened when the battery was approximately 35F and driving about 30 miles to a supercharger. No other cars were at the supercharger when I plugged in and the 35 miles were highway speed (70mph)
Great job with this. I've not seen anyone else cut through bs like you. Out of all ev coverage online yours is the most insightful.
Good job Bjorn ! My main takeaway is that in winter I will only charge to 50-60%% (instead of 80%) to have more regen. (As I have a short commute and already use Stats for Tesla with smart battery prep (currently more reliable/better than Scheduled Departure). This seems like a good way to further increase regen and thus efficiency in cold weather)
Regarding performance models and acceleration times: Tesla seems to be drawing max amps out of its battery in performance models for max performance. As such, any change in max battery output also impacts the performance. Even though it is great that customers are allowed to get most from their cars, it also means the experience might be inconsistent with varying SOC, temps, etc.
Since amps are what really limit what a cable can carry, switching to an 800V system would almost double the throughput (assuming enough parallel cells to support it). Once switched to 800V, I think Tesla could then not have to use everything battery can give, and make it a much more consistent experience. I'm sure something like this will happen.
This, of course, helps with charging speeds, too. The battery cells will still be impacted from temps, etc, but if the cell layout is optimized for 800V, you could probably get away with less battery conditioning, since your speeds would be almost double of whatever they were.
That is one reason the Porsche uses 800v.
I didn't realise that battery temperature has such a big effect on power output. I don't often drive long distances and, since I've owned my Model 3 Performance, I've not needed to use a SuperCharger and only ever slow charged it at home at 3.8 kW (16A). So my battery is almost permanently in a cold state. Very rarely do I have no regen limit at all, even at the end of my journeys. The car still accelerates pretty hard but it's never seemed to have that killer bite that the Model 3 Performance had that I test drove prior to buying my car, even when it's at a relatively high state of charge. I thought that maybe I had just got used to the acceleration after the initial shock of the test drive. Right, OK, that's it! This weekend I'm going to drive to my nearest SuperCharger and charge it up to over 90% to see what difference a nicely warmed up high state of charge battery makes!
Eddie Griffith you will be blown away... the difference is big.
Let us know how it goes!
@@ouethojlkjn Yes, I will do. I'm looking forward to my first SuperCharging experience. My free SuperCharger miles expire soon so I need to use them.
@@EddieGriffith2802 No sure what part of the world you are in but London Tesla have version 3 250kw (form model 3) stalls.... there is a recent post from Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged Channel. I didn't know staring at a screen with a charge status (and no noise, or anything else) could be so exciting! [location Park Royal Supercharger
52 Dukes Road
W3 0SL London]
@@ouethojlkjn Yes, I'm in the UK but a fair way from London. The motorway services on the M40 near Warwick is my nearest SuperCharger. Would be interesting to see a V3 SuperCharger in action at some point though. No doubt they'll be rolling out to more locations over the next couple of years or so.
Thank you Bjørn! I learn some thing new from every video you post.
The addition of a Super Capacitor with a capacity of say 1 kWh would be sufficient to remove any power limits or regen limits. Would be nice to have something like this. It wouldn't help with charging limits though since those are long duration power levels.
wait until the next battery drivetrain event in April. I think we will see the new plaid drivetrain with an Hybrid battery like what you explained. Hope someday to change my battery pack to this hybrid
thats kinda what we've done with smartphones during snowboarding. keeping the smartphone in one of the jacket warm inner pockets, so that it didn't shot down with 30% akku, if we wanted to call a friend. keeping it in a cold outer pockets, the smartphone could shot off very fast during high consumption.
Akku? You must be Deutsch.
Bjørn Nyland schweiz 🤓
Also weird that it allows more regen than charging speed at times.. This is an excellent video Bjorn - thank you!
Regen comes in short bursts.
Would you recommend to enable scheduled charging so you start with a fully charged battery but also a warm battery for a road trip? There will be also a difference between higher and lower SOC and the temperature because it charges slowly at the end and therfore the battery cools down. It's there a sweet spot? Maybe charge only to 70% from low SOC so the battery is warm and you are not driving so far the next charger and therefore the battery can't cool down much. Love these kind of deep dives!
Good analysis of Battery stats, with my 2020 Soul EV I am going to test out surging before a charging session (hard accelerate and regen as you have shown before) to warm up the battery and see about improving rapid charging session during 9-12 Deg.C. days especially when not running at over 100KM/hr for extended period of time.
My 1st gen volt felt downright sluggish on the colder winter days. I looked forward to the spring/summer days when it felt significantly peppier with the warm battery. All BEVs are affected by this.
Leaf has warm up system but it for keeping only enough temperature to prevent freeze electrolyte in cells. Start warming up in around -20°C and stop around -10°C (if I good remember; for sure both minus temperatures). There is video on YT of one of professor how he assemble disassembled Leaf battery. He shows all that things and info stickers. Human couldn’t feel that temperature changes.
Excellent information! Thanks
Tesla should have a button to heat up the battery for charging, so in 15 or 30 minutes it has perfect temp for max charging speed.
Doesn't it try to do it automatically? Saw the "preconditioning for best charging" quite often when navigation to a supercharger.
@@Soordhin And what if you want to charge somewhere else? In Europe there are lots of charging stations, that are significantly faster than Superchargers.
Tesla do it automatically when you start charging i think
@@wermagst select a Supercharger somewhere not too far from your preferred charging point as destination on the navigation, let the car think you are going there and precondition the battery. Then just divert to the other charger. Like a bait and switch.
@@Alessandro-nq3tm when you start charging is too late to get full speed before hitting the high percentage charging speed limit
Thank you so much :) very nice explained!
1) State of charge
2) Temperature
3) Age?
Good shit Bjørn :)
Thanks Bjorn
It would be interesting to go further in cold hell...
Being in Canada with the battery at -15C (right after leaving the ski hill), I had 9KW at the super charger with SOC at 40%
High temperature is good for performances but damage the battery ... not ?
Model S Raven yesterday peaked 181KW on V3 supercharger
@Futzel Fupp th-cam.com/video/6rlz7tIg8sI/w-d-xo.html&t=93
Hi, I performed some test with my eNiro Dashboard. BMS provide CAN/OBD values for battery module temperature 01, 02, 03, 04 - bms uses this values, not other bat.min/max, outside, etc.. If weakest value is least 15°C BMS allow you charge with 120A and more.. Another limit is 25°C ... this allows you charge with 150A and more .. 15°C is also required for 50kW chargers, otherwise you will start with speed 39...43kWh.. it will increased when weakest module reach 15°C temperature.. Another 25°C limit is required for UFC charging.. with temperatures under 25°C you got only 51...55kW.
Bellow are videos with detailed graphs 01-04. But note there is another limit by SOC% (see FASTNED graph).. ~for my Eniro2020 SOC 0..46% = max.200A SOC 46-53% = max 180A SOC 53-73% = max 150A SOC 73-76% = max 90A SOC 76%.. = max 60A PS: Please anyone know how to preheat battery to 15°C/25 via OBD/CAN bus ? CAN codes to control PTC in battery over BMS, alebo heat it via liquid/thermal system. I don't want to destroy my car with random seeking:) Then I can add preheat battery before charging feature to opensource "eniro dashboard"
th-cam.com/video/KvVIndSB5lM/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/aYFsG-QQusU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/2PlY2f0jLkc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/Jg5VP2P58Yg/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/EJsuY4SBcsk/w-d-xo.html
Rapidgate in the summer is the reverse for Very Hot temps in cars without active cooling. The only way to control temps in battery is to charge slower. For Leaf, wasn't it about 45-47 C where it will start to throttle speeds? If anything I'd rather have colder temp than needed and you might warm up. Being too hot is not good in passive cooling cars because you'll never cool down while charging.
This reminds me of power and performance with ICE cars - cold weather has dense air and theoretically better engine performance (why an intercooler lowers inlet temp). BUT cold weather with dense air means more work to go the same speed through the thicker air. There are no absolutes, even with EVs eh?!
i swear i watch one bjorn video everyday
hey Bjorn, Amazingly good shit !!!
The drag racing is somewhat fair even done by fossil journalists because in the real world on the stop light you will not have time to preheat anyway. Still if you are a real car guy and want to race you will drive preheated most of the time so it is an argument to be made but anyway both test are relevant.
In reality its unfair in favour of the Tesla. If you have both cars in ideal conditions the Tesla will struggle to match the Porsche. As conditions get worse the Porsche gets a bigger and bigger advantage so if you take the average its miles faster.
For instance if they're both cold at 10% the Porsche is going to leave it miles behind but that would be unfair in favour of the Porsche. The most fair would be an average of available performance over the whole spectrum of heat and charge level and again thats where the Porsche will make the Tesla look like its towing a house.
They can make a Sport mode which says in a notification: For best results be at X% battery and X degrees of temperature. The "out of the box" behaviour is quite picky for normal people, but I guess normal people would not use all power every time they run the car.
Here is something interesting too - when preheating the battery for the supercharger, the stator temperatures only increase to ~55C but when the car is plugged in to the supercharger then the stators increase temperature to > 110C. I can only guess that Tesla does not want to have such high stator temperatures when the motors are being used to drive the car. It's one of the causes of the Model 3 not being able to get > 30C when it starts supercharging in winter.
Stator temps can get to 80 C. It's inefficient and any more is a waste of power for the heat. More power you drive to motors like on highway will heat up more. City streets likely will limit how hot you can get for the lower consumption.
@@CoolSilver Highest I have seen so far is 55 but that's in the winter so I am sure they will get hotter in the summer. When stationary and supercharging they hit 112C and 115C to heat up the battery.
7:40 i think that will come soon, i have seen an article about this on some tesla news site
Does any of the lower "power states" come with dots on the right side of the power bar? Even when my cell temperature is at 25+ degrees I get power limit dots when my SoC goes below about 70%. Often the dots only show after applying full throttle. Is that something you spot too? Now I wonder if this is normal behaviour as the car can't draw max power anymore or if the car is held back by something else. Low oil pressure or an overheating component.
The Kia's have a winter battery setting but it's never been cold enough where I am in Canada for it to turn on.!
Does it heat up the battery if it have to charge in the cold weather?
@@PeterStephanDK My KIA heats up the battery while DC charging even at 8C.
With AC charging not heating is performed.
Winter battery setting is only actived below -10C
Can confirm; when driving from the the South of the Netherlands to Switzerland, one of the superchargers (Arlon) on the route was out, so we needed to top up from 70% in Verviers (just after the start of our trip) in order to make the jump to Metz. It was rather cold, and the car struggled around 24 kW for the first minutes. M3 LR Dual Motor, that is.
Subsequent charges on the route were much faster. Both because the battery had warmed up during our trip, but also because we charged from much more reasonable lower SoC.
You can say journalists should warm the battery or charge it and all the rest but if they take the Taycan and the Tesla, charge them both to full and heat them up as high as is possible it gives the Tesla the best chance it will ever have.
You could also say they should race tehm both at 50% with medium heat or 10% with cold batteries.
The point is at best the Tesla will struggle to match the Porsche but everywhere there is an advantage the Porsche will have it. Its performance is much less sensitive to heat or charge level which works in its favour in anything but perfect conditions. Its also likely to give it a noticably longer life.
Basically its just better engineered.
Taycan is probably better engineered. But it has poor efficiency and range. And it also coldgates.
@@bjornnyland Poor efficiency and range compared to cars only designed with that in mind. Thats the trade off for proper handling, better materials and a much nicer overall experience.
The Taycan and the Etron are nice cars compared to other cars - not just compared to other ev's. Thats very important if we want more people to get onboard because I know a lot of people who have payed large sums of money for ev's then been disappointed with fit/finish, materials and especially noise levels - something an ev really should be good at.
When people spend a lot of money there is an expectation of the product being better so for instance a Zoe is around £10k more expensive than a Clio so people expect it to be better. In reality its just as poorly built and just as noisy at anything over about 25mph so that big premium isn't getting much return.
I understand in Norway things are different but thats only because the government are part funding the ev's.
In the case of the Taycan and Etron they are as good as other cars at the same price with the benefit of no tailpipe. A lot of ev's have a nice motor but the car itself can be a let down.
@@bjornnyland Oh but the coldgate - no excuses on that. Its not something any ev needs to do so it shouldn't do it.
I wonder why they do though? Most ev's now have battery heaters so why wouldn't they use them?
Surely a software update could fix this?
It'd be interesting to understand why charge limit is 32kW while regen limit is 85kW at 70% SOC, mid temperatures. Maybe you've mentioned it somewhere else, but it seems strange that it's considered safe to regen at 85kW at this point, while DC fast charging is limited to only 32kW.
Regen is in short bursts only whereas charging is continous.
@@bjornnyland I thought that might be the case, but by the same token I guess it should hardly ever make sense to limit regen - just limit to very short bursts? And for 40% SOC and cold battery, charge limit is higher than regen limit. Does that make sense? I guess Tesla knows something clever.
Hi Bjorn, can you do the 1000km challenge with the Ampera-e?
I charge at home at 85% and I now get a warning message for low regenerating brake.
I read before that the low regen warning was only when the battery was full charged, like above 93%.
I was thinking this was due to a new software update? But may be the 85% warning is because of the
winter temperature effect at night, I'm in Northern California and the temperature at night is 44 F / 7 Celsius.
It is like Battery technology is created for warmer countries with abundant sunlight (solar power) !!
Navigate to supercharger and you can pre heat it that way
Is this common across all/most EVs? Faster charging is a good selling point for Tesla (150+). But if that’s only for a few minutes does it end up more like the 75-100 that other EVs support?
The less cobalt in the battery, the more sensitive it is to the cold. Cobalt is expensive. Tesla e. g. wanted to keep it cheap and is searching for alternatives. E. g. heating up the battery by stator. Old Ioniq 1/3 of battery is cobalt. No problems at all....
New Ioniq: less cobalt=cheaper battery. Coldgate, shiiiiiiit.
ok so don't drag race unless you see full regen available.. that should mean the battery is warm enough for most of your power.
Interesting. It doesn't seem that the Ioniq28 is hit as hard by this from the BMS as the TM3 is. Ioniq28 charges at 60+kW even at 1 degree battery temperature. Max Regen I've seen on Ioniq is around 78kW, no idea if this is limited by battery temperature, haven't tested.
Much more cobalt is the reason @old Ioniq. Regen max is 98 kW. Even if battery is cold (0 Degrees C.) and 100% SOC. It can regen to 102% (97% BMS). But not with full 98 kW. Above 85% SOC about 70 kW. I already got 60 kW charging speed at HPC at -3 Degrees C battery temp. Cobalt for the win...
Maybe you could preheat battery with departure time feature before a drag race...
Kind of like race bikes preheating their tyres with a warm up lap, then putting on an insulating blanket to stop the tyres from cooling down. Temp has a big effect on race tyre grip.
According to Fastned the I3 charges with increasing power (kW) up to ~87% SoC. Would be interesting to know if it can preheat the battery to avoid coldgating.
The BMW i3 charges constantly with 47/48 kW up to ~ 92 - 93 % Soc. If the car is equipped with heated front seats, then the battery has a preheating management. This might explain why when using the heating for your seat, it doesn´t cost any Range, even on the highest heating level.
You CAN preheat the model 3 battery, not just by plugging into a charger. Starting preconditioning from your phone will heat the battery once the cabin reaches temperature. Or navigate to a nearby supercharger and it will heat the battery nice and toasty warm while you drive! No need to actually plug in.
Preheating from app only goes to 27°C. I was talking about going to 50°C for drag racing.
@@bjornnyland I think Nav to supercharge will go warmer. You can see the target temperature on the CAN.
Possible but you'd have more an effect while driving than just sitting at the track. Assuming within range of it which is a 10 minute drive or so?
Will there be a 1000km challenge with the range updated model S and X?
If I hammer it will it heat up the battery? Also if I pre heat the cabin will it heat up the battery?
Yes and yes.
Question: why does regen not cause nerving while similar dc charging does?
If you mean heating its becasue regen doesn't add enough to do anything noticable. If you regen at 50kW while being towed you will add the same heat as charging at 50kW. In reality regen is a small amount for a small time. Imagine 50kW for a few seconds here and there and there isn't much to be had.
I wonder, if the high temperature of the batteries will affect the recharge cycles count!!!
Yes and so does a fast change in temperature. Especially in older cells.
Great job!! Jaaah!
A hot battery may perform better, BUT higher heat degrades lithium ion batteries faster over time:(
Seems to be a physics thing that all is affected by cold weather... all performance. Happy Valentines 🤭
@Bjørn Nyland:
I just watched this video of Lotus Evija electric and they have managed to implement the thermal management system suited for race tracks, as you have spoken about. Which is to maintain the battery temperature at the right level for peak performance everytime, anytime.
You got your wish :)
th-cam.com/video/nODsrmsuPb8/w-d-xo.html
I thought thanks to an update months ago the car was able to heat battery if you chose to go to a supercharger in the nav map. Is it not working?
It does that, yes.
Why is max regen not equal to max charging power?
Regen is in short bursts.
@@bjornnyland so battery can take higher peak if it is more constant I presume? Is that why chargers always need some time to ramp up (i.e. to get up to high amps safely)?
So basically you're saying that most of the time EVs aren't as fast as they should be?
Most of the time, they are still faster than fossil cars. Even a Tesla with a cold battery easily beats diesel. Lol
You can call motor journalists noobs, or you can just say that it's annoyingly difficult to get the best peformance out of an EV unless you baby it. Not that the average person should care at all about drag times apart from 14 year old specsheet warriors
Baby it? Lol. Just use Ludicrous+ in Model S and X. Easy.
@@bjornnyland Lol. Like you say, only S and X, and like I said, achieving a difference of 0.2 sec or something? Waaw. Life changing. Not important. I prefer to agree with you on battery temp being important for charging consistency. Much more relevant.
Does a raven model S have battery preheating when a supercharger is entered into the navigation destination
Is that a question
Yes it is a question. I have a raven S and even when I put a supercharger as a destination it charges slowly as if there was no battery heat function. This happened when the battery was approximately 35F and driving about 30 miles to a supercharger. No other cars were at the supercharger when I plugged in and the 35 miles were highway speed (70mph)
With fossil cars you heat up the tires for drag racing, with EVs you heat up the batteries. 😁
True - but when an EV generates smoke while preheating, it is 'nicht gut' 😂
...Musk April 2016 said on twitter, "of course" model 3 will get ludicrous...