We have always been a nation of lawyers. Our system is adversarial for a reason. Oh, and, think about the Bill of Rights. Several of those rights are to set some level of fair play in the courts.
Civil law suits in my opinion of a person, bad guy per say is killed. all judges should throw out the civil law suit case and charge the attorney who took the case, make him or her liable for the courts waste of time. and make them pay out of their own pockets.
@@kennethtaylor964 It is OFF THE CHART now compared to the past... NO COMPARISON. Nine MILLION cases in Texas courts alone in 2019... I'll bet there weren't 9 million NATIONWIDE in our first HUNDRED years.
@@kennylavay8492 JUST THINK: When someone lawfully defends themselves against a violent person, and the family of the violent person files a civil suit against the VICTIM for their "loss", WELL, GUESS WHAT? They DIDN'T lose anything due to the victim's actions, because if the VICTIM had been killed by the INSTIGATOR, the VICTIM'S family would be suing the INSTIGATOR'S family! So the VICTIM did you a favor... CONSIDER YOURSELVES LUCKY and MOVE ON!
Good food for thought. Reminds me of a seminar an Arizona attorney gave. One thought he shared was "you need to think in advance of the risks in making a defensive shot, that being are the rewards of that shot worth the prison time you could do if you were convicted." His example was your life or a loved one's life, probably worth the risk. Your car, your wallet, being disrespected, not so much.
I worked for a JAG friend after I retired from the Army. He did criminal defense. He always filed the right paperwork, to get the firearm back. It always took a while, but he got them.
Yes it is possible but it is pricey and one has to make the decision is it worth that effort or use a inexpensive firearm to defend yourself. I have firearms that the only function is self defense all stock and factory ammo. All are under 500 dollars and are a brand name and reliable. I shoot them every six months to change out the ammo and stay current with said pistols use the same firearm in competition just larger so I'm always using this style of pistol. Good information here I only use factory ammo for self defense in fact I use the same ammo our local law enforcement agencies use. On a side note your looking very fit.
Time for me to go out and buy a throw away gun per say! Both my EDC's are $600+ nothing fancy just a Glock 45 and a S&W Shield. Still I never really thought about this scenario, and so it's always important to learn about everything you can for legal purposes.
I remember 20-30 years ago two officers , one city police officer and the other a deputy sheriff in another city each shot and killed armed robbers while off duty , both officers were using there own reloaded self defense ammunition. the deputy had written on his box of ammunition he kept with him all information about the ammunition.the family of the dead robber was going to try sue the deputy for excissive force in the death of there loved one . the attorney told them he used hot ammo to get more power , saying the robber would have lived if shot with factory ammunition. so that attorney was given some rounds by the deputys attorney add both attorney sent them to different independent labs for testing. the attorney for the family dropped the case finding out the deputys reloads were some less than his service ammunition. the city police officer I don't no the outcome. papa
I guess we are supposed to scare intruders with non lethal bullets while they can kill us with lethal rounds🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️! It don't matter if he killed them with a grenade! Self defense is SELF DEFENSE! WHY THE HECK DOES IT MATTER WHAT KIND OF BULLETS HE SHOT HIM WITH!??!! The government for the most part don't care about the Law abiding citizens.
I'm really glad you talked about this. You bring a lot of experience on to TH-cam with your background that myself and a lot of others can benefit from just by listening to a presentation like this! After watching the Kyle Rittenhouse case I felt like I definitely saw a Mini-14, or even a lever action in my future...
You’re welcome. An issue I didn’t get into (because it is absolutely random and unpredictable) is the political climate that may influence a defensive encounter. The case you mentioned is a prime example.
To an anti gunner changing the platform won't matter much. Over the years the media buzz words have included, uzi, mini 14, ak47 now it'stransitioningfrom ar15 and. 9mm handgun to "ghostgun., m
For ammo, a prosecutor will paint you as evil if you use handloads. He'll paint you as evil for using FMJ. And he'll paint you as evil for using hollownpoints. This point is mostly moot.
@@hansblitz7770 I've heard him say that too. But I've also seen more than a few firearm related trials, and my point still stands. You WILL be persecuted no matter your ammo choice if the DA wants to do it. And most will. Even in an Ag Assault case, doesn't even have to be a shot fired.
Very true. Just note how prosecutor Thomas Binger tried to make an issue of Kyle Rittenhouse's use of FMJ ammo in his AR-15. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't when one of these guys is arguing before a jury. Having said that, I try to make it as difficult as I can for them to play such games. My defense guns are all loaded with high quality factory ammo of the type issued to me when I was a police officer, and which is used by my local cops. It's kind of hard for the local prosecutor to argue there is something wrong with my ammo when my county is using it in police guns.
Interesting points well presented. I'm glad this type of legal resoning does not apply to automobiles. If I were to hit someone with my 65 Chevy II, I'd be in a world of trouble in court. Its hand loaded.
𝘋𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘭𝘺 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘤𝘦 𝐢𝐬 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐧𝐥𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐤𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐢𝐦𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐰𝐢𝐬𝐞 𝐮𝐧𝐚𝐯𝐨𝐢𝐝𝐚𝐛𝐥𝐞 𝐝𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐟 𝐝𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐡 𝐨𝐫 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐛𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐥𝐲 𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐦 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐜𝐞𝐧𝐭. I have zero intent to kill and fully intend to stop an aggressor. I am not a good shot, so I will keep my range within 21 feet, if not 9 feet. My goal is fully disabling without killing a vital organ. My point of aim is just to the right of the belly button. I am sure a lead stone passing through their left kidney is going to be the most disabling pain they can ever experience. MOST ammo is intended to be fully lethal. My goal is to be less lethal.
Good points communicated well. This is a man I will listen to, because he is trying to get people to think and not just tell them what to do. Defensive shooters, ccl or not, need to think many variables before they pull that trigger. The more we study, listen and think, the more likely we are to make the right decision on not only if we should shoot, but what we should shoot with in that situation. Many thanks hrfunk.
I've always been told to keep yourself reasonable. As long as your equipment is reliable, you have trained and are reliable with that equipment, and you make good decisions in that moment, your equipment or what you've done to it won't matter much. Of course that is with the understanding that in some jurisdictions it won't matter because you'll be painted as the bad guy with whatever means are available to the attorneys. I'm fortunate to live in an area where enough people are familiar with guns that biasing the jury or judge based on equipment is difficult thing to do.
Excellent video! I belong to US and Texas Lawshield and they have program attorneys in every state. No limit on attorneys fees to defend you. They answer 24hrs a day. That works for me but am sure others would have 500 or more other opinions. The individual needs to check their "hardheadedness" and before you carry a firearm out the door check your attitude and maturity level. Keep up the good work HR!
Thanks brother. This is excellent information. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your concerns and experience in this matter. Keep up the good work. God bless you. ❤🇺🇸
Just excellent! Well thought out and well presented! I am certain we all learned or remembered something of value from your presentation. Thank you! Just too bad that all these considerations only apply to the good guy trying to do the right thing and defend himself or his loved ones from a criminal act? None of the considerations apply to the bad guy.
@d7dun1010 And, of course, none of this well thought out logic applies when the wokesters are in control. Woke persecutor, judge, and/or jury pool .... you are hosed if you sneeze wrong.....
One thing to remember, you are putting your life and livelihood in the hands of people, people are stupid. Not stupid, but trained to believe guns are evil, people with guns are bad and the government is never wrong.
I agree with your handloaded ammo assessment. I have told people essentially the same thing, that it's only in a case of being a questionable shoot is there a potential to wrongly investigate your ammo, maybe either by ballistic differences or by prosecutor claims it's "more deadly". I always tell people, if your state has castle doctrine and you keep it in your house gun (as it's almost never a questionable shoot), go ahead and use handloads. But don't carry it on the street.
Interesting discussion. Makes the case for training where people are taught about situational awareness, avoiding conflict, and what can happen after a defensive engagement to stop the threat both civil and criminal including living with the outcome. Thanks sir.
I've worked as a criminal prosecutor for 21 years. I worked 1 year in the civil arena, and never in the personal injury field. This is what I do. THIS IS NOT ADVICE. It's just me saying what I do, at my home, in my jurisdiction. What YOU do, in your home, in your jurisdiction is your decision to make. I have well maintained and clean weapons for use in self-defense/defense of home. They are not modified in any way (other than replacing standard sights with night sights, and if the firearm has a rail, a weapon mounted light for subject identification). I use factory loaded ammunition. Typically I call my local Sheriff's Department and ask what ammunition their deputies are issued, then I buy that or as close to that as I can. If it's good enough for the Sheriff's Department to use in protecting their deputies and the public, then it's good enough for me. Now here's the only piece of legal advice I will give you... Call an attorney in your jurisdiction and find out what is expected of you should you find yourself in a self-defense shooting. Some jurisdictions require you to run away if you safely can, others allow you to "stand your ground". I do not know you, your skill level, the firearm(s) you have, the ammunition they are loaded with, the layout of your home, or the laws of your jurisdiction, etc... Find out from a local attorney what kind of jurisdiction you are in. Ignorance of the law is RARELY (if ever) a defense, educate yourself!
I belong to the USCCA (this is not an endorsement). One of the "features" I use a lot with that subscription is access to attorneys that work on self-defense and firearms cases. I call and ask questions all the time. Is this legally concerning? Should I render aide to someone I was forced to shoot? What should I do after this happens? etc etc etc. I have never had to use their primary services (and pray I never have to) so I can't recommend or not recommend them for that. But as far as having a competent attorney a phone call away? Totally worth it to me. In my experience, reading and watching cases involving self-defense, your chances of getting hemmed up by the legal system, regardless of the degree to which the justification for the shooting is apparent, depend solely on whether or not the prosecuting DA is anti or pro 2nd Amendment. Just another reason to live in a jurisdiction that is pro 2A.
The only issue I would say about your advise is that the Sheriff’s Dept in your area, like the one I worked for, bought the cheapest junk ammo they could find because of their budget….they didn’t care about actual performance and if you are using a ammo for protection, I want something that will work if used….my agency allowed us to shoot “any” over the counter ammo as long as it wasn’t hand loaded, we didn’t need to carry their specific ammo that was issued at the range…..unless your using some extremely hot load that goes through a person and hits someone behind for instance, the type of ammo isn’t going to matter….when asked why you shoot ammo X, shot it before, weapon has never had any issues with jamming or failure to function with it, so I use it….plain and simple answer, not that it provides an additional 400 feet per second and whatever amount of force, the hollow point is serrated and breaks into 20 mini knives designed to cut up the target as it goes through them….ya, your gonna have some issues at that point.
I enjoyed the video, thank you. The main thing I trust in is your 3+ decades of PRACTICAL and hands-on experience- wisdom comes not quickly. Seeing and being involved with cases that directly correlate to this video, and though it's obviously not legal advice you provide, it is an 'in the trenches' account of how the ball rolled, an opinion formed from a long career of being witness to events dealing with the subject of this video. And even if just made for entertainment purposes, much can still be gleaned from the content provided within it, even if some may disagree with it being 'advice'- so to each their own. And once again mr. funk, thank you for making it.
Expensive or inexpensive? If you are involved in a shooting your gun will be taken by the police as evidence. You may or may not get it back after the trial. I would rather risk a reliable midrange gun than a $2000 high end firearm.
who gives a damn. I won't be giving anything to anyone. and last thing I'll be doing is talking to any damn cops. them and their tyrannical laws can kiss my A. maybe they would be followed if they were actually fair and weren't completely tyrannical 🖕🖕
Great video. I highly recommend carrying insurance. It is cheap and can cover all your legal costs in a defensive shooting. Civil liability can wipe you out even if the law clears you. All it takes is a sympathetic jury. Using a firearm defensively should be a last resort to address an imminent threat.
In the 1960s, the NYPD TPF (Tactical Police Force) Used a Remington 660 with a 4 power Weaver scope as their sniper rifle. I don't believe for a moment that the type and model of rifle, other than identification, ever became a factor in a court case. With regard to the "handloaded ammo prohibition," every time I ask a lawyer or law enforcement officer that gives that advice if using hand loaded ammo was a factor in someone being prosecuted, they could not. The MOST important thing if one has the misfortune to be forced to use deadly force to protect their life is....SHUT UP!
This is quite possibly the best video I have seen on the topics covered. A fix I'd like to see would be a criminals family is barred from taking legal action against a victim or their family.
I believe you are absolutely correct on many of these issues, however, I only use factory ammunition and a stock Glock if and when I carry, why beg the question at any time, liability and prosecution can ruin your life.
Very good video 👍when I got my LTC in Massachusetts the license officer said “ you buy a gun and you shoot someone with it: gets good lawyer “ and that was professional information that I never forgot! Many topics covered in this video were of the same conversation. Good job 👍
Great video H.R. We fire to save our life or someone else's, shoot to center of available mass and only as a last resort. We don't shoot to kill, just to stop the threat. We tell our students to remove all the bumper stickers, signs and social media saying things like "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again", "keep honking I am reloading" or "I don't call 9-1-1" as the prosecutor or lawyers will bring all that up to show "you just wanted to kill someone" .
I go even further by not having any gun related stickers, signs, etc. on my vehicle or visible from the outside of my home. And, for God's sake don't be spouting that crap on social media!
Excellent video! The info was well thought-out and well presented. For me, I don't think modifications make a difference as long as you are justified in your actions and acted lawfully. That being said, I feel it is best to make sure that you have a reason for every single thing you do to your firearm.
Great topic. I live in Los Angeles. A very experienced law enforcement defense attorney told me that if I want to concealed carry in LA, I should carry what the police carry, and use the ammo they use. Full stop. That practice eliminates about 40% of the various issues raised by prosecutors during indictments. He explained that the big issue throughout the process is "usual", "unusual" and "reasonable person". Yeah, the PDQ Killzall round may be 5% or 10% more effective, but as anyone who has studied real use of force cases knows that missing is as common as hitting. So, practice with factory ammo, carry factory ammo, and learn to place your shots well. Hand load for fun. I do.
@@OfficialFedHater ok, it's true, but the idea is valid. You can carry issue ammo in issue calibers, you just can't have as many rounds, or the latest and greatest if it isn't on the register, but... oh never mind.
Along the same lines, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the the issue of LEO's having to use department issued firearms, as opposed to having the freedom to use their personally owned firearms while on duty? Having had conversations with decision makers at various departments over the years, liability is always an issue that is cited by those who only authorize the use of dept issued firearms. Yet, I've never personally found a case where, as you lay out in this video, the use of a personally owned firearm made the difference between a 'good' outcome in court versus a 'bad' outcome in court. Great vid as always! Semper Fi!
Semper Fi Mike! I’ve never heard of a case like that either. When I was still a Chief of Police, I would allow my officers to carry personally owned firearms on duty so long as I could inspect the weapon to insure it was safe and functional, and the officer was able to qualify with it. The advantage I had/have is a fairly extensive background in firearms. My knowledge and experience allowed me to evaluate firearms and train officers in the use of various platforms. Most administrators, and many instructors, lack that breadth of knowledge. Rather, they are trained to operate/instruct/maintain only one type of firearm. Allowing officers to carry firearms that the instructors cannot adequately “teach”, or officers are uncertain how to use, or armorers can’t maintain MIGHT cause some liability concerns in the aftermath of a shooting. As I mentioned in the video, attorneys will always say “don’t do it.” Administrators who know little about firearms will usually follow their advice.
Mike, before I retired from my police department in 2018, our officers were authorized to use personally owned patrol rifles if they did not want to use one issued by the agency. There was a set criteria that was applied to the rifles and one of them was that there were no authorized modifications to the trigger group. Things such as optics, lights, etc were authorized however trigger work was a no-no. One of our officers was involved in a shooting with his personally owned rifle that was 100% justified. As our lead patrol rifle instructor I had to speak with the state investigators about the rifle and the process that was used to have it authorized for duty use, etc. After I presented the documents attesting to the rifle, the adherence to policy, etc, nothing else came from it. I agree with Chief in that so long as your actions are justified I would surprised that modifications or hand loaded ammo would be an issue.
I am an armed guard and have to carry a personally owned firearm. And the state has the serial number, and I have to qualify with the exact same weapon every year. At least if you had an issued weapon. You wouldn't have you're personal weapon tied up in court. That's the only pro of a "duty issue weapon".
I worked for 36 years for a large city police department that required (and still requires) officers to buy their own firearms. There were parameters, we could not use whatever we wanted, but there were accepted firearms and you had to qualify with every gun you wanted to be authorized to carry. When I began, we had to use DA revolvers, .38 Special or .357 Magnum, minimum barrel length of 4", maximum barrel length of 6" and they had to be Colt or S&W manufacture. Later, Ruger was added as an accepted revolver. When the department switched to allowing semi autos I chose a Beretta Model 92FS. When I went into plainclothes work in 1990 I chose a SIG P228 and S&W Model 6904 as my duty guns. After December, 1991, new officers could no longer opt for revolvers, but officers hired before then could continue using revolvers if they chose. The city still has this policy but since 2015 all semi-autos must be striker fired (glad I retired before then) FWIW, officers who had started with revolvers were allowed to continue using them if they desired and some officers were carrying revolvers until fairly recently.
Thank you for a splendid coverage of these critical aspects. These are reasons that I carry a high quality pistol chambered for .22lr and use only the best ammo that money can buy, and I practice, practice, practice.
Forgive me if you've addressed this, but another type of liability issue rests with the tricked out finish jobs we've seen the last few years. The gun with the skull and crossbones or "cool" looking verbiage (like R.I.P.) embossed on it is functionally no different than the standard version of the same gun, but jurors seeing such a gun are likely to wonder about the guy claiming self defense.
All excellent points and well presented regarding a complex subject. Four things that I have learned, especially from my LE experience; do not modify a firearm’s internals if the firearm is to be used for self-defense. Changing sights or grips to enhance a handgun’s control is passable, in most cases. Second, only use factory ammunition in a firearm used for self-defense, and stay away from “Cutesy-named” ammunition. Even if you use ammunition that is used by your local LE agency, it can be used against you, unless you have an attorney who can effectively argue this point. Third, caliber does matter. Actually, it is over-penetration of the ammunition used, which could cause injury or death of a by-stander. Custom, hand-loaded ammunition will, more likely than not, work against you even if it did effectively stop a threat. Fourth, keep things simple. Extravagant equipment might impress your friends, but it weighs less with the bad guy - and juries. As you somewhat stated, “Actions speak louder than words.”
I agree with your take on things. Personally, I figure you can't go wrong if you use the same type of ammo the police in your jurisdiction use. So I use Federal Law Enforcement 9mm +P in my semi-auto and the Speer Gold Dot short barrel .357 ammo in my snubbie. My toes are right on the line, but not over.
Very well said! This is my first time watching a video of yours. Based on the title I was ready to click away after 30 seconds but you very much surprised me with a very intelligent and rational explanation of things. Thanks!
Along the lines of this video, I have heard many guys around the range state that they almost never carry anything expensive for personal defense. The reason for this is that if you ever have to defend yourself with it, even if the police don't arrest you, they will collect that firearm for evidence. And it could take months to years to get it back if you are found not guilty. Although I have no personal experience with this... I can see this argument. The wheels of justice are really slow to turn currently.
"The reason for this is that if you ever have to defend yourself with it, even if the police don't arrest you, they will collect that firearm for evidence. And it could take months to years to get it back if you are found not guilty. " I would rather have the best gun I can afford to save my life then worry about it being taken if in fact it does just that - save my life. I pay more each year in car insurance I never use than my carry EDC costs.
@@bjs301 - Are you calling an $800 gun cheap? Yeah that might just be a Glock with night sights, red dot and mounted light - basic but not cheap. I’d be comfortable carrying such and I agree it’s loss would be among the smallest problems at that point. Never having shot one, not sure I’d be comfortable with a base model high point ($200)- certainly not at night without light or night sights. Heck I’d be satisfied with my surplus TT-33,
@@finngamesknudson1457 Well $800 is certainly a lot cheaper than $2000. My point was that you can spend money on very expensive guns, but unless you are a competition shooter that expensive gun will probably provide no real advantage if your life is on the line.
HR, Really excellent presentation. I have heard most of this before, but you did a great job of explaining the ins and outs of how to present things in court. Also what sort of problems you can cause for yourself if you say the wrong thing, or the right thing at the wrong time. Keep up the good work. Cheers, Zeke
Why would you ever want to give a prosecutor any additional angles with which to prosecute you? Why use hand loads when there are dozens of choices of great self defense ammo readily available? Why have a modified weapon or a tricked out trigger job when all that will do is invite more scrutiny? There are plenty of great weapons that will work just fine just as designed and manufactured at the factory. Being involved in a self-defense shooting is a horrible tragedy, even if it’s totally justified. I can’t see why clouding your innocence with hand loaded ammo or modified gear is a good idea.
My favorite carry round is ,Ultimate Destruction Mayhem Devastator 240 grain exploding hollowpoint,carry it in my platinum plated war issue Singer 1911.
Thanks again for a great video. Personally, I look at my firearms, in light of defending myself and family, as just that...defense. That includes keeping myself as close to 'safe' from the law as possible as well. What good is defending yourself only to find yourself with bubba as a cellmate? What's the point of defending your family only to be taken away from them and tossed in prison? Or losing everything you have worked for all your life? The only modifications I will make to any gun I have for defense is a better grip to fit my hand. I use factory ammo, factory trigger, factory springs. I do not use ammo named 'R.I.P.' or ;Zombie apocalypse' or 'extreme destruction' or any other such equivalent. For hunting and/or target shooting, that is a different story. But they stay in the safe and are only removed for those purposes. I want to give prosecutors zero extra 'ammo' in destroying my life, just because they do not want me to defend my life.
I always caution people who want to use a NFA firearm for defense that additional charges can be brought against them in federal court for misuse of the NFA. I also warn them that an overeager DA may try to demonize the appearance of a firearm and call it a deadly assault weapon or sawed-off shotgun. For this reason I recommend keeping a firearm as vanilla as possible.
What I usually here people say about expensive is not the liability issue. It is that firearm is going to to end up in the evidence locker. I used to believe that to be an important factor until I realized that cost of Wilson Combat is generally going to be a very small percentage of your legal bill. I saw a video on this topic by "The Armed Attorneys" channel. They are two actual defense attorneys. Their position is if you want to mod your trigger let a certified gunsmith do it. Then if the modification comes up in a civil suit you have the positive defense that modification was done by a factory certified gunsmith so he bears the primary responsibility. That is the position every OEM takes. If you, or someone not certified by the company, modifies the functionality of your firearm any warranty is voided. That ends their product liability to you and forms a defense if there is a civil suit as the result the use or failure of the firearm in question that can be attributed to the mod.
Massad Ayoob said to contact the manufacturer of a weapon and get their exceptable minimal weight of trigger pull when putting in an aftermarket trigger. He then said to get this info emailed to you and put it in your archives. ( not saying your putting in the minimum wieght trigger) .Great information from both men!
Absolutely agree from my professional experience as well. Factory ammo regardless of brand and seemingly in all jurisdictions minimizes the MADE MORE POWERFUL TO KILL argument. The factory ammunition can be acquired by anyone so is a benefit potentially during a use of force defense. Hand loads for general practice, but I always recommend factory cartridges for defense. I would avoid things like the .454, .460 or .500 S&W, as a personal defense handgun due to the obvious perception. Absolutely the cost of a specific weapon is not a real concern its the action of the shooter that will be reviewed not how much the firearm costs. The only changes we could make to issue firearms is grips. Police Armorers as in the military are the only ones who can work on these weapons. Had a case like you mentioned where a drug hit man confronted two innocent citizens and disarmed them out on the victims property. Said victim had a Colt Gold Cup 1911 .45, after I got these bad guys in court they tried to say shooting my victim was an accident, until I said THE SHERIFF carries a Gold Cup 1911 .45 on duty ending the argument. More involved than that but the end result.
". Factory ammo regardless of brand and seemingly in all jurisdictions minimizes the MADE MORE POWERFUL TO KILL argument" That is not a valid legal argument in a court of law. For a self-defense case, the ONLY thing that matters is WHY you shoot, not what you shoot. There is NO element of aggravated assault or homicide that includes that the gun/ammo is "more deadly". If you are legally justified in using deadly force, you could drop an ACME safe on the bad guy.
You missed the most obvious one. Don't have guns with skulls on them or sayings like "you're F'ed" or "smile and wait for flash". Just don't do it. They say a lot about you character to juries.
@@brianpdaniels You may want to learn the Rules of Evidence. Clearly you do not understand the law. BTW, why would you be in civil court? In Ohio, and many other states, a criminal is barred from any recovery in civil court based on their criminal actions. And as I ALWAYS say, only shoot criminals doing criminals sh*t. Now if you shoot someone over a parking space, throwing popcorn at you or they "look" suspicious, then you will have some issues to deal with.
I think I've got it... If I have to shoot a bad guy, toss his corpse in a wood chipper, then go find his lawyer and shoot him, too! ;-) Joking aside, very good video. Most informative, as always.
Ive had self-defense ammo discussion all the time. My advice is always this. People who want to EDC. Contact their local P.D and ask them what they use. Here in Florida when i Contact 4 separated PD and ask them what they use and what i was going to run in my EDC pistol that is. Federal syntech defense SJHP 138 grain round. Gives MAX penatration on impact WITHOUT over penatrating. People gotta do their homework 1st, and make calls to their local P.D and ask what they use. This is why i go with federal syntech defense SJHP 138 grain round. Its under what my local P.D uses
You are really getting into the weeds with many of your remarks good sir. I too have both a law enforcement and military background. I'm both a retired Marine and retired Police Officer. I also attended a very good law school for two years. I wasn't looking to become an attorney, I wanted to be a better Cop. The best way to really understand the legal systems is to attend law school. The legal training Police Officers get is just the tip of the iceberg. I thought I knew the law until I went to school. The what if as far as hand loads and modified firearms goes is very subjective. In school attorneys are thought that when the facts and evidence are with you, play to the facts. If the truth is with you play to the truth. If none of this is on your side pound on the table and make shit up to confuse the Jury. The prosecutor/plaintiffs attorney will higher some prostitute expert professional whiteness to testify that the modified weapon and hand loaded ammunition speaks to the state of mind that the defendant was hoping he/she was looking for the opportunity to shoot some innocent soul that had his/her promise of a great life until the defendant used his/her fiendish mind to create the perfect killing weapon that snuffed this precarious life with so much promise short. (pretty good ain't it) Your attorney will have an expert whiteness(s) testify to the opposite. You did the modificatios to your weapon and ammunition so as to greatly enhance your ability to stop this totally un provoked and vicious attack by a carrier criminal upon you the innocent victim. Because you took the added efforts and experience to greatly enhance your ability to stop and only stop this violent criminal and minimize the threat to harm any innocent by stander. If you actually hit the punk in the leg because of an A.D. are you going to be stupid enough to say so? No, what you would say is you shot him in the leg because you didn't want to kill him even though you had the legal justification to do so. You would also testify that your ammunition was so above and beyond the capability of factory ammunition that because of the components you purchased at your own expense and the extra efforts you put into assembling this ammunition, the punk in question is still alive because you only had to shoot hin once in the leg to stop him as opposed to a magazine dump in the gut like the Cops sometimes have too do. Now this all sounds like a giant load of BULLSHIT and hurt don't it. Well that about sums it up. The legal system isn't about guilt or innocence, truth or lie, right and wrong. It's about the assignment of blame and who wins who looses. The Jury wasn't there, they don't know what actually happened. All they do know is the evidence and testimony they heard and saw at a trial that could last for between from one to four months. They have to decide who they find credible and will receive instructions from the Judge on how the are too apply this too he law. The scary thing about this all is that your legal expenses could easily get up to $500,000 and that's thousands of dollars just in pre trial expenses before you step into a court room. The smart money says purchase one of the insurance policies available today for people that keep and carry a firearm for self protection. The policy I have covers up to $6,000,000 in legal fees and expenses. For the once a year $500 each year premium I pay that's money well spent. Prosecutors and plaintiffs attorneys are like professional baseball players. They don't want to spoil their batting average. If you can bring a $6,000,000 dollar defense fund to the table they are very unlikely to charge you. If the loose and they most likely would, it makes them look bad. That effects their image and makes it harder to get work. Keep all of this n mind. Remember 90& of all self defense pleas are BULLSHIT. Their lawyer tells them to say that. Your lawyer has to build your argument of self defense to the Jury.
When going through the criminal investigator school at FLETC, we were always told to "think court". Of course this was training for our cases, but the lawyers teaching the course said think of CIVIL COURT as well as criminal court.
As we all know, the use of serious or deadly physical force will be justifiable for a civilian on the following: DR.BARKS D- deadly physical force being used against me or 3rd party R - robbery, any degree B - burglary, of an occupied building or dwelling A - arson. Applies to buildings only R - rape, forced K - kidnapping, any degree S - sexual act, criminal, forcible At a self-defense situation, the shooter maybe justifiable, however if there are any accidental / unintentional shots, the shooter will be charged civilly. Liability insurance does not cover the criminal use of a firearm, only accidental or unintentional incidents with limitations. Remembering, the use of serious or deadly physical force must be last, last resort, reasonable and necessary, otherwise the shooter maybe criminally & civilly charged. It is better to avoid the use of serious or deadly physical force by being as tolerant as possible. Always take cover & lay low, most times a criminal perpetrator will retreat when the conceal carrier displays his conceal carry gun in justifiable self-defense situation. When a criminal perpetrator retreats, the use of serious or deadly physical force is no longer permitted. Thankfully, the risks of being a victim is low, but always be prepared and proficient in the laws of self-defense. Have a ready / reliable conceal firearm and practice regularly. Be gun shy!
I’ve never made ammo at that level. I exclusively carry handloads for CCW. They are not illegal where I live. That being said, my pistol loads mimic top end, even, duplicate LEO carry loads. Why do I do that? What difference does it make? I keep my ammo at the same specs as the LEO duty ammo so I am not "out of the norm" for performance. Why not just buy factory ammo then? Yeah, do me a favor today: run right out to Walmart and do that today….not available. Mine is. Train with what you carry. I do and it is done far more consistently and with a higher level of care. It is also cheaper to make. Since it is not illegal, I am not going to give up a right or freedom because of fear. Do what you feel comfortable with. I do.
I, too duplicate factory defense loads (9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) which are used by many major LE groups nationwide. Any claim that I created "killer ammunition" would be easily dismissed by submission to any ballistics lab in the USA. A 124 grain Gold Dot at 1,210 FPS from my handload, and a 124 Gold Dot at 1,210 FPS from a factory load are going to result in identical performance.
What setup is best for reloading for new shooters? I carried a .45 ACP issued by the Navy as a Corpsman attached to 2nd Recon Marines. I'm carrying 9mm now. Is .45 or 9 easier to load? I like Hornady XTP bullets unless you can recommend a better alternative.
@@thisismagacountry1318 Well, they both load the same really EXCEPT if you have fat fingers. Lol The smaller the caliber the harder it is for my extra large hands to handle components. Getting into reloading now will be almost impossible because components are so low. Primers are all but extinct. Save your brass and hopefully things will swing the other way when we get a conservative back in the white house… As for equipment: Dillon, hands down. Hornady Lock N Load AP is a decent press. If you are going to load rifle cartridges for precision shooting, the Lee line of MANUAL presses will work fine. Hope that helps.
I always carry a stock firearm other than custom grips or sights and I always carry factory loaded, commonly available ammunition. I don't see any significant advantage to be gained by putting a competition trigger or "boutique" ammunition in my guns and only potential negative issues in court. Besides, shot placement is far more important than any special characteristics the gun or ammo may have. And, it us a lot easier/cheaper to practice with the same ammo you carry if you are not paying $60 for 20 rounds of ammo.
I bought an S&W Shield after some research and I hate the crappy trigger, but I won't modify it because of the idiocy of anti-gun DAs and families of dead scumbags. I'll just sell it and buy a better pistol.
A competition trigger is designed to be lighter and easier to squeeze, smoother. This is to help you avoid pulling to the left and down (usually). In other words… for better SHOT PLACEMENT.
@@patmcbride9853 I have had this conversation many, many times with many people. Not one of which was ever able to point me to a case where a trigger upgrade was a relevant issue in a trial over a justifiable self defense shooting. Furthermore, many states have pre-emption laws which prohibit a civil suit if the shooting was determined to be justified. And just my opinion here, the Apex drop in for the Shield is only negligibly better than the stock, hinged trigger.
@@floydi9709 The fact is that you may not have to deal with it at trial, but you are more likely to be tried if the government wants to chill self defense.
The advice I read in one of Massad Ayoob's books was to imagine how the opposing attorney would present something to an anti-gun jury. Obviously, there are limits to this, since many prosecutors or plaintiff's attorneys are going to act as if no use of a gun is ever justified, but it's best not to hand them ammunition without need. With this in mind, I don't put zombie grips, Punisher decals, slogans, or the like on my defensive firearms. I did put a new hammer spring in my Radom P64 to bring the double-action trigger pull down from "needs a log splitter to squeeze it" to around seventeen pounds.
Excellect video as always. Ive recently discovered your channel so my apologies for the belated comment. After I ETSed from the 3/75 Ranger Reg. I was involved in a criminal case when a man tried to rob me at gun point. I was unarmed but the robber's night did not go per his plan. However, I came VERY close to felony charges because the prosecuter tryed to use my military background against me. All worked out in my favor thanks to my attorney. Point is, your video has made me wonder how things would go for me if I was forced to deploy my CCW?
I’m glad everything worked out in your favor. I hope you never have to worry about a future case involving a handgun. The Daniel Penny case in New York is a good example of how bad such a case might go.
I live in the outer edges of L.A. County near the border of San Bernardino and Orange counties. It's semi rural here but more suburban than rural. I prepared a conceal carry pistol about three or four years ago but will finally begin conceal carrying soon after I take more classes. It's a .40 cal S&W Shield with a Crimson Trace light/green laser combo that's very intuitive. As soon as you wrap your hand around the grip, the middle finger immediately engages the button that's below the trigger guard, which instantly turns on the light and laser. I also stippled it, ported it, and and replaced the recoil spring and guide rod with after market ones. All modifications were done to manage recoil and to be able to control and handle the gun more efficiently. I never and won't replace the original trigger.
Excellent video! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten into rather heated discussions with someone who has no knowledge and never hand loaded telling me that if I used hand loaded ammunition in a self-defense scenario that I would be arrested and charged with murder having my first born child taken away from me and anything else you could possibly imagine! Now I’ve done substantial amount of diligence in trying to find any case where someone has had chargers brought against them solely because they were using reloaded handload ammunition! Now I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is never happened but what I can tell you is that I’ve never been able to find a case where someone was charged in a self-defense situation solely because they used hand loaded ammunition! The simple fact of the matter is if it’s a justifiable use of deadly force it’s the justifiable use of deadly force and it matters not whether or not you used factory ammunition or handloads! I’ve gone so far as to offer to pay one rather narcissistic individual that was arguing with me 100 bucks if he could show me one case. But if he couldn’t he had to give me 100 needless to say he did not take me up on my offer. As for point number two I’ve always been of the mindset that I certainly did not want to use my most expensive custom ivory gripped gold inlaid firearm as my every day Carrie because any event that I did have to use it in a self-defense scenario I would probably lose it at least for a considerable period of time if not permanently while the case was investigated. Price of a tool is an important it’s whether or not that tool Ken accomplished the task which it was designed for. As for point number three I refer you back to my comment on point number one. If it’s a justifiable use of deadly force, it’s a justifiable use of deadly force! If it’s questionable you’re gonna be charged based on the actual circumstances not solely because you polished your trigger or your feed ramp!
Excellent……well stated. You are absolutely correct. It doesn’t make one damn bit of difference if you use a chainsaw or a BB gun in determining justification.
Excellent discussion, Mr. Funk! Thank you! I'm a 1997 graduate of Harvard Law School, practicing criminal defense for almost 25 years, a use of deadly force referral attorney for USCCA, and a lifelong firearms user and trainer. Your presentation was spot on in that you made the singularly most determinitive point in these cases crystal clear, again and again: each case is unique, and will depend on its unique facts being analyzed under the unique laws of your state. The only universal truth is that there is no universally correct answer to these hypotheticals. The best one can do (standard disclaimer, this IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, CONSULT AND RETAIN YOUR OWN LOCAL ATTORNEY, THE FOLLOWING IS MERELY MY PERSONAL OPINION AND GENERALIZED OBSERVATIONS NOT MEANT IN ANY WAY AS LEGAL COUNSEL, etc...etc...) is to know your local laws, practice and train with your firearms, then practice and train some more. Furthermore, numerous companies offer "carry insurance", at rates low enough that I urge all of my friends and students to obtain coverage--I'm not selling any specific company, but if you can afford to carry, you really can't afford not to have coverage. Along with professional training, it's the best investment you can make. Finally, if you choose to carry, the best use of force scenario is the one avoided completely--stay situationally aware, deescalate and walk away when safely possible, and pray every day you never have to use your firearm on another human being. Even if an assailant was the 'lowest of the low', and in cases so justfied and compelling that Mother Theresa would take the shot and no legal consequences resulted, the hardest men I know still remain fundamentally affected when forced to take a life. My clients have, to the man, said the only thing worse than having to use their firearm defensively was if they hadn't. Stay at default Condition Yellow, stay safe all, and hopefully Noone reading this will ever need to take a second mortgage to hire my kind.
Here in georgia. In a self defense scenario. If the use of the firearm in a justifiable situation. As long as your firearm isnt modified to a full auto. Modifying a weapon isnt going to be an issue. I see your points and understand your point of view. Although most of the points you bring are all up to the courts to decide the final outcome. So like you said, the case is different with each situation. Good video.
7:05 Correction. On March 28th, 2019, Ohio changed the burden of proof shifting for self defense. The State now has the BOP that it was NOT self defense once asserted. ORC 2901.05: A) Every person accused of an offense is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and the burden of proof for all elements of the offense is upon the prosecution. The burden of going forward with the evidence of an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, for an affirmative defense *other than self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the accused's residence presented as described in division (B)(1) of this section,* is upon the accused.
Great topic. ALWAYS controversial in any arena. As for MY ‘carry ammo’..defensive use, it’s what an LEO was distributed as a local police officer. He had granted me a portion of his allotment. BOTH 9mm and .40. With him being an acquaintance..as I am not law enforcement, and us having “this” conversation, it made sense even back almost 10 years ago (which is the age of this ammo). Anyway THAT was key to me. Thanks..
Well done HR. Nice change of pace. I've seen these subjects addressed on a bunch of different TH-cam channels and other venues, and you covered it as well any of the other presenters. I'm sure your Legal Dept (Mimi) reviewed it before you posted it. 🤣Keep up the good work. Semper Fi!
I was the commander of our SWAT Team for years and my agency was close to Quantico, VA. We built a close working relationship w/the USMC and they were good enough to build our sniper rifles, at our expense, for the specific officer it was assigned to. We were also fortunate enough to train at Combat Village a few times a year. It was a job I enjoyed immensely. Also, your presentation on this topic is one of the best I’ve ever seen, well done.
@@hrfunk My boss was the deputy chief who was very supportive. Almost anything I put in my budget, even a supplemental, was green lighted. I’m guessing those times are gone forever.
I have two exact carry weapons with holsters. If they take me weapon and holster I have a replacement as needed. Both weapons are above average quality just because I can afford them and I trust them. Also have plenty of magazines for each.
💯 agree on moding your EDC. LEAVE IT STOCK. ( internals ). Me, because i have Cellebel palsy on my left side i added grip tape where i needed for my support hand and a magwell to help ad in reloading. Thats it. Leave your EDC pistol stock. 👌💯
Excellent explanation !!! I live in Illinois / criminals HEAVEN ...no matter how justified you defend your loved one’s live as well as yourself... you will NEVER get fair trial here unfortunately....
👌 breakdown of the legal side of gun ownership and the court side of it. This is why, HRFUNK even before I I bought my 1st pistol and got my CCWP I joined USCCA. I tell everyone who does own a firearm to get coverage even if that person ONLY hunts/ target shoots and doesn't EDC. Get coverage. I like USCCA because of their online training classes they cover everything, even how to handle yourself in court if that day comes. If you don't have gun owners insurance yourself. Look up USCCA. 👌. if you join, your spouse get 50% of their plan. Win. Win.
Thank you for the video, you are very knowledgeable on the subjects. I personally carry a Glock 19 with factory loaded hollow point ammunition because that's why our local law enforcement carry. I was told by a lawyer years ago that you'll never have an issue in court with the weapon or ammunition if you carry exactly what law enforcement carry.
Smiling! I was a reserve officer for the local county sheriffs office for some years. I am also a reloaded for even more years. Sheriffs office didn't supply ammo for reserve officers, so I used my own .45 ACP reloads. When the full time Lieutenant over the ammo and other stuff found out, he said you can't use reloads, the courts would destroy your case with you using them. You have to use Speer Gold Dot like all the rest of us. I said, in that case you should give me a box, and he did, still got them loaded in a couple mags. I was more or less an unpaid transport officer for the most part, with patrol around the lakes in the summer. We traveled 100's of miles in a day to pick up on warrants, take back and forth to prison's for court, inmates to doctor, dental, mental and much more, all over the state of Arkansas, and many other states just to be bad mouthed by most the full time guys and the sheriff. One day I was getting ready to come in for a staff meeting as reserve president at age 69 and thought why am I doing this. Called Chief Deputy, said think I hanging it up, not fun any more. Went from 22 reserves to around 5, I think now, I must have opened the gate.
Our own local sheriffs department went through a similar transition. Up until recently they had a small army of reserves. Now they’re down to just a few, maybe half a dozen.
I've bought expensive guns as well as cheapish guns. They all work the same, and it doesn't matter to the bad guy which I'm using to defend myself and my family. My glock 19, I did so much to it that the trigger pull was right around 3 lbs. It was only after taking it to the range, I realized that it was far too soft for a carry gun. So now I've put some stock spring's back in it to get it back to about 5.5 lbs. Sometimes, cool just isn't safe.
That's what I was getting at in the video, if the modification results in an unintended/unjustifiable injury or damage, it could become a factor in litigation.
Am glad to hear your opinion that various hand loadings won't have much effect on a case, in your opinion. I will likely be carrying a black powder revolver for self-defense (matter of preference, not legal necessity!), and literally every round is "hand loaded". The only limitation I would use is that I wouldn't load it with more than about 35 grains because I would want to avoid power over 250 ft-lbs which would damage the pistol (Colt style). Also, since I know that round ball fired with that small amount of powder is likely to remain inside the body of the suspect, with very little chance of going on to damage or injure anything else (especially because the ball would likely be horribly deformed by then and far from aerodynamic), it's unlikely to damage anything I wasn't aiming at. As I've mentioned before I'm a former police officer but have never had to investigate such a situation-- neither black powder nor hand-loaded ammo (that I knew of).
I only know of one modern case involving the use of a black powder revolver. Oddly, it took place in my former jurisdiction. The person firing the shot was convicted of murder. You might want to look up the case just to know the details. The defendant was Paul Claren, and the jurisdiction is Orrville, OH. I believe the case has been appealed.
@@hrfunk Thanks for mentioning the case. I read the court decision document, and it seems his actions stunk to high heaven from the get-go. Apparently "under disability" in Ohio is the equivalent of "Felon in possession of a firearm" here or at least a person previously prohibited from possessing a firearm due to some previous conviction, and that was mistake #1. Then constantly mentioning the situation and even the weapon to countless people including law enforcement prior to... then getting into it with neighbors.... then attempting to apply "castle doctrine" on a lawn... good gawd, he was a walking how-to checklist of how to get convicted. You or Law of Self Defense should do an instructional video on that case! Anyway, it looks like he lost his appeal, not surprisingly. By the way apparently the victim's family attempted to sue Cabella's/Bas Pro Shop, don't know if it was successful. But it does explain why now, none of their outlets I've been to so far here or in Florida carry the bp guns anymore, and are super skittish about even selling the accessories.
We were supposed to be a nation of LAWS, but have become a nation of LAWYERS... BIG difference.
…SO true.
We have always been a nation of lawyers. Our system is adversarial for a reason. Oh, and, think about the Bill of Rights. Several of those rights are to set some level of fair play in the courts.
Civil law suits in my opinion of a person, bad guy per say is killed. all judges should throw out the civil law suit case and charge the attorney who took the case, make him or her liable for the courts waste of time. and make them pay out of their own pockets.
@@kennethtaylor964 It is OFF THE CHART now compared to the past... NO COMPARISON.
Nine MILLION cases in Texas courts alone in 2019... I'll bet there weren't 9 million NATIONWIDE in our first HUNDRED years.
@@kennylavay8492 JUST THINK:
When someone lawfully defends themselves against a violent person, and the family of the violent person files a civil suit against the VICTIM for their "loss", WELL, GUESS WHAT?
They DIDN'T lose anything due to the victim's actions, because if the VICTIM had been killed by the INSTIGATOR, the VICTIM'S family would be suing the INSTIGATOR'S family! So the VICTIM did you a favor... CONSIDER YOURSELVES LUCKY and MOVE ON!
Good food for thought. Reminds me of a seminar an Arizona attorney gave. One thought he shared was "you need to think in advance of the risks in making a defensive shot, that being are the rewards of that shot worth the prison time you could do if you were convicted." His example was your life or a loved one's life, probably worth the risk. Your car, your wallet, being disrespected, not so much.
I worked for a JAG friend after I retired from the Army. He did criminal defense. He always filed the right paperwork, to get the firearm back. It always took a while, but he got them.
Yes it is possible but it is pricey and one has to make the decision is it worth that effort or use a inexpensive firearm to defend yourself. I have firearms that the only function is self defense all stock and factory ammo. All are under 500 dollars and are a brand name and reliable. I shoot them every six months to change out the ammo and stay current with said pistols use the same firearm in competition just larger so I'm always using this style of pistol. Good information here I only use factory ammo for self defense in fact I use the same ammo our local law enforcement agencies use. On a side note your looking very fit.
@@umami0247 Ditto. I also have two sets of handguns for this very same reason.
Time for me to go out and buy a throw away gun per say! Both my EDC's are $600+ nothing fancy just a Glock 45 and a S&W Shield. Still I never really thought about this scenario, and so it's always important to learn about everything you can for legal purposes.
I remember 20-30 years ago two officers , one city police officer and the other a deputy sheriff in another city each shot and killed armed robbers while off duty , both officers were using there own reloaded self defense ammunition. the deputy had written on his box of ammunition he kept with him all information about the ammunition.the family of the dead robber was going to try sue the deputy for excissive force in the death of there loved one . the attorney told them he used hot ammo to get more power , saying the robber would have lived if shot with factory ammunition. so that attorney was given some rounds by the deputys attorney add both attorney sent them to different independent labs for testing. the attorney for the family dropped the case finding out the deputys reloads were some less than his service ammunition. the city police officer I don't no the outcome. papa
I guess we are supposed to scare intruders with non lethal bullets while they can kill us with lethal rounds🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️! It don't matter if he killed them with a grenade! Self defense is SELF DEFENSE! WHY THE HECK DOES IT MATTER WHAT KIND OF BULLETS HE SHOT HIM WITH!??!! The government for the most part don't care about the Law abiding citizens.
I'm really glad you talked about this. You bring a lot of experience on to TH-cam with your background that myself and a lot of others can benefit from just by listening to a presentation like this! After watching the Kyle Rittenhouse case I felt like I definitely saw a Mini-14, or even a lever action in my future...
You’re welcome. An issue I didn’t get into (because it is absolutely random and unpredictable) is the political climate that may influence a defensive encounter. The case you mentioned is a prime example.
To an anti gunner changing the platform won't matter much. Over the years the media buzz words have included, uzi, mini 14, ak47 now it'stransitioningfrom ar15 and. 9mm handgun to "ghostgun., m
I can see CNN airing the story with the Mini-14 from the A-team pictured to make you look scary.
@@bernardbarr2354 Exactly they'll still just call it a "semi-automatic assault rifle mini-14" or a "high capacity hunting rifle"
I live in Oklahoma. I'm not worried about it.
For ammo, a prosecutor will paint you as evil if you use handloads. He'll paint you as evil for using FMJ. And he'll paint you as evil for using hollownpoints. This point is mostly moot.
I've heard Mass Ayoob say to use the duty load of a LE agency in your area.
@@hansblitz7770 I've heard him say that too. But I've also seen more than a few firearm related trials, and my point still stands. You WILL be persecuted no matter your ammo choice if the DA wants to do it. And most will. Even in an Ag Assault case, doesn't even have to be a shot fired.
Very true. Just note how prosecutor Thomas Binger tried to make an issue of Kyle Rittenhouse's use of FMJ ammo in his AR-15. You're damned if you do, and damned if you don't when one of these guys is arguing before a jury.
Having said that, I try to make it as difficult as I can for them to play such games. My defense guns are all loaded with high quality factory ammo of the type issued to me when I was a police officer, and which is used by my local cops. It's kind of hard for the local prosecutor to argue there is something wrong with my ammo when my county is using it in police guns.
Deadly force is deadly force, regardless who made the ammunition. It's not a factor legally. A competent attorney will deflate that argument.
A BB gun too - ag assault.
Nice, level headed presentation. Some jurisdictions it doesn't matter what you do, it will be used against you.
Thank you!
Another reason "carry insurance" is so prominent today.
Interesting points well presented. I'm glad this type of legal resoning does not apply to automobiles. If I were to hit someone with my 65 Chevy II, I'd be in a world of trouble in court. Its hand loaded.
Well, if it has a blower it may be hard to escape a conviction for street racing.
𝘋𝘦𝘢𝘥𝘭𝘺 𝘧𝘰𝘳𝘤𝘦 𝐢𝐬 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐢𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐧𝐥𝐲 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐮𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐫𝐭𝐚𝐤𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐨 𝐩𝐫𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐢𝐦𝐦𝐢𝐧𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐨𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐫𝐰𝐢𝐬𝐞 𝐮𝐧𝐚𝐯𝐨𝐢𝐝𝐚𝐛𝐥𝐞 𝐝𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐟 𝐝𝐞𝐚𝐭𝐡 𝐨𝐫 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐛𝐨𝐝𝐢𝐥𝐲 𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐦 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐜𝐞𝐧𝐭. I have zero intent to kill and fully intend to stop an aggressor. I am not a good shot, so I will keep my range within 21 feet, if not 9 feet. My goal is fully disabling without killing a vital organ. My point of aim is just to the right of the belly button. I am sure a lead stone passing through their left kidney is going to be the most disabling pain they can ever experience. MOST ammo is intended to be fully lethal. My goal is to be less lethal.
If you hit someone with it you should sue them for wrecking your classic car.
Nice 😁
Definitely a loaded weapon
Good points communicated well. This is a man I will listen to, because he is trying to get people to think and not just tell them what to do. Defensive shooters, ccl or not, need to think many variables before they pull that trigger. The more we study, listen and think, the more likely we are to make the right decision on not only if we should shoot, but what we should shoot with in that situation. Many thanks hrfunk.
You’re welcome Scott. Thanks for watching!
You had my curiosity at the start on the video, and then had my interest when using such a phrase during the intro. Excellent work, good sir.
Thank you!
I've always been told to keep yourself reasonable. As long as your equipment is reliable, you have trained and are reliable with that equipment, and you make good decisions in that moment, your equipment or what you've done to it won't matter much. Of course that is with the understanding that in some jurisdictions it won't matter because you'll be painted as the bad guy with whatever means are available to the attorneys. I'm fortunate to live in an area where enough people are familiar with guns that biasing the jury or judge based on equipment is difficult thing to do.
A thoughtful and informative presentation on a subject ALL CCW holders should watch and ponder. Thanks.🙂
Excellent video! I belong to US and Texas Lawshield and they have program attorneys in every state. No limit on attorneys fees to defend you. They answer 24hrs a day. That works for me but am sure others would have 500 or more other opinions. The individual needs to check their "hardheadedness" and before you carry a firearm out the door check your attitude and maturity level. Keep up the good work HR!
Agreed Dan, will do!
If the insurance company finds you made some legal mistakes they can refuse to defend you.
Thanks brother.
This is excellent information. I appreciate you taking the time to explain your concerns and experience in this matter.
Keep up the good work. God bless you. ❤🇺🇸
Will do. Thanks for watching!
Just excellent! Well thought out and well presented! I am certain we all learned or remembered something of value from your presentation. Thank you!
Just too bad that all these considerations only apply to the good guy trying to do the right thing and defend himself or his loved ones from a criminal act? None of the considerations apply to the bad guy.
I agree. Too often the good guy receives more scrutiny than the bad guy(s). Ask Kyle R. about that.
@d7dun1010 And, of course, none of this well thought out logic applies when the wokesters are in control.
Woke persecutor, judge, and/or jury pool .... you are hosed if you sneeze wrong.....
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.” That line amused me because it’s an absolute.
I know. Watch out for my dark-side force lightening!
Cogent and succinct discussion from someone with knowledge.
Thank you!
Great examples HR. Really appreciate your view on the subject based on your experiences. 🤜🤛
Thank you!
One thing to remember, you are putting your life and livelihood in the hands of people, people are stupid.
Not stupid, but trained to believe guns are evil, people with guns are bad and the government is never wrong.
Great information. Thank you for taking the time to make the video and share with the community. Love your channel.
You're welcome. Thanks for watching!
I agree with your handloaded ammo assessment. I have told people essentially the same thing, that it's only in a case of being a questionable shoot is there a potential to wrongly investigate your ammo, maybe either by ballistic differences or by prosecutor claims it's "more deadly". I always tell people, if your state has castle doctrine and you keep it in your house gun (as it's almost never a questionable shoot), go ahead and use handloads. But don't carry it on the street.
The other concern, as I’m sure you’ll agree, is the quality of one’s handloads. A click when you really need a bang could ruin your day.
Interesting discussion. Makes the case for training where people are taught about situational awareness, avoiding conflict, and what can happen after a defensive engagement to stop the threat both civil and criminal including living with the outcome. Thanks sir.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
I've worked as a criminal prosecutor for 21 years. I worked 1 year in the civil arena, and never in the personal injury field. This is what I do. THIS IS NOT ADVICE. It's just me saying what I do, at my home, in my jurisdiction. What YOU do, in your home, in your jurisdiction is your decision to make. I have well maintained and clean weapons for use in self-defense/defense of home. They are not modified in any way (other than replacing standard sights with night sights, and if the firearm has a rail, a weapon mounted light for subject identification). I use factory loaded ammunition. Typically I call my local Sheriff's Department and ask what ammunition their deputies are issued, then I buy that or as close to that as I can. If it's good enough for the Sheriff's Department to use in protecting their deputies and the public, then it's good enough for me.
Now here's the only piece of legal advice I will give you... Call an attorney in your jurisdiction and find out what is expected of you should you find yourself in a self-defense shooting. Some jurisdictions require you to run away if you safely can, others allow you to "stand your ground". I do not know you, your skill level, the firearm(s) you have, the ammunition they are loaded with, the layout of your home, or the laws of your jurisdiction, etc... Find out from a local attorney what kind of jurisdiction you are in. Ignorance of the law is RARELY (if ever) a defense, educate yourself!
Thanks for weighing in Counselor!
I belong to the USCCA (this is not an endorsement). One of the "features" I use a lot with that subscription is access to attorneys that work on self-defense and firearms cases. I call and ask questions all the time. Is this legally concerning? Should I render aide to someone I was forced to shoot? What should I do after this happens? etc etc etc. I have never had to use their primary services (and pray I never have to) so I can't recommend or not recommend them for that. But as far as having a competent attorney a phone call away? Totally worth it to me.
In my experience, reading and watching cases involving self-defense, your chances of getting hemmed up by the legal system, regardless of the degree to which the justification for the shooting is apparent, depend solely on whether or not the prosecuting DA is anti or pro 2nd Amendment. Just another reason to live in a jurisdiction that is pro 2A.
Most law enforcement uses Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST.
I prefer Underwood with the copper bullet.
The only issue I would say about your advise is that the Sheriff’s Dept in your area, like the one I worked for, bought the cheapest junk ammo they could find because of their budget….they didn’t care about actual performance and if you are using a ammo for protection, I want something that will work if used….my agency allowed us to shoot “any” over the counter ammo as long as it wasn’t hand loaded, we didn’t need to carry their specific ammo that was issued at the range…..unless your using some extremely hot load that goes through a person and hits someone behind for instance, the type of ammo isn’t going to matter….when asked why you shoot ammo X, shot it before, weapon has never had any issues with jamming or failure to function with it, so I use it….plain and simple answer, not that it provides an additional 400 feet per second and whatever amount of force, the hollow point is serrated and breaks into 20 mini knives designed to cut up the target as it goes through them….ya, your gonna have some issues at that point.
Shall not be infringed. We will not comply death to tyranny…
I enjoyed the video, thank you. The main thing I trust in is your 3+ decades of PRACTICAL and hands-on experience- wisdom comes not quickly. Seeing and being involved with cases that directly correlate to this video, and though it's obviously not legal advice you provide, it is an 'in the trenches' account of how the ball rolled, an opinion formed from a long career of being witness to events dealing with the subject of this video. And even if just made for entertainment purposes, much can still be gleaned from the content provided within it, even if some may disagree with it being 'advice'- so to each their own. And once again mr. funk, thank you for making it.
You are most welcome. Thanks for watching.
Expensive or inexpensive? If you are involved in a shooting your gun will be taken by the police as evidence. You may or may not get it back after the trial. I would rather risk a reliable midrange gun than a $2000 high end firearm.
It took 18 months to get my gun back after a shooting event. AND it was NEVER used in a court of law, the turds all plead out.
I’m glad you got it back Tom. Hopefully it was in good condition.
As I said above, I used to follow that rule too but when you consider the cost of your legal defense the price of the gun really doesn't matter.
I’d rather use the firearm that I shoot best with to defend myself with regardless of price.
who gives a damn. I won't be giving anything to anyone. and last thing I'll be doing is talking to any damn cops. them and their tyrannical laws can kiss my A. maybe they would be followed if they were actually fair and weren't completely tyrannical 🖕🖕
Thank you for this presentation--I don't think anyone could possibly have laid it out any better.
Thanks Daniel!
Great video. I highly recommend carrying insurance. It is cheap and can cover all your legal costs in a defensive shooting. Civil liability can wipe you out even if the law clears you. All it takes is a sympathetic jury. Using a firearm defensively should be a last resort to address an imminent threat.
Agreed.
Lots of problems I've run into researching ccw insurance.
maximum respect Mr. Funk.. well done .. keep them coming
Thank you Bobby!
In the 1960s, the NYPD TPF (Tactical Police Force) Used a Remington 660 with a 4 power Weaver scope as their sniper rifle.
I don't believe for a moment that the type and model of rifle, other than identification, ever became a factor in a court case.
With regard to the "handloaded ammo prohibition," every time I ask a lawyer or law enforcement officer that gives that advice if using hand loaded ammo was a factor in someone being prosecuted, they could not. The MOST important thing if one has the misfortune to be forced to use deadly force to protect their life is....SHUT UP!
This is quite possibly the best video I have seen on the topics covered. A fix I'd like to see would be a criminals family is barred from taking legal action against a victim or their family.
I believe you are absolutely correct on many of these issues, however, I only use factory ammunition and a stock Glock if and when I carry, why beg the question at any time, liability and prosecution can ruin your life.
Very good video 👍when I got my LTC in Massachusetts the license officer said “ you buy a gun and you shoot someone with it: gets good lawyer “ and that was professional information that I never forgot! Many topics covered in this video were of the same conversation. Good job 👍
Thank you!
Anytime Mr Funk is dispensing wisdom, Ill listen.
Agreed!
Well that would be all the time.
Thanks for your service.
Great video H.R. We fire to save our life or someone else's, shoot to center of available mass and only as a last resort. We don't shoot to kill, just to stop the threat. We tell our students to remove all the bumper stickers, signs and social media saying things like "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again", "keep honking I am reloading" or "I don't call 9-1-1" as the prosecutor or lawyers will bring all that up to show "you just wanted to kill someone" .
A low profile can be your friend. Thanks for watching Tom!
I go even further by not having any gun related stickers, signs, etc. on my vehicle or visible from the outside of my home. And, for God's sake don't be spouting that crap on social media!
It's good advice to not put those cringe stickers anywhere in the first place.
Excellent video! The info was well thought-out and well presented. For me, I don't think modifications make a difference as long as you are justified in your actions and acted lawfully. That being said, I feel it is best to make sure that you have a reason for every single thing you do to your firearm.
Great topic. I live in Los Angeles. A very experienced law enforcement defense attorney told me that if I want to concealed carry in LA, I should carry what the police carry, and use the ammo they use. Full stop. That practice eliminates about 40% of the various issues raised by prosecutors during indictments. He explained that the big issue throughout the process is "usual", "unusual" and "reasonable person". Yeah, the PDQ Killzall round may be 5% or 10% more effective, but as anyone who has studied real use of force cases knows that missing is as common as hitting. So, practice with factory ammo, carry factory ammo, and learn to place your shots well. Hand load for fun. I do.
That’s a pretty good bit of advice. I don’t know California laws but isn’t their new pistol illegal to own by citizens?
@@tmartin3151 the glock 17 or such has been the standard. We just have to use the 10 round version, they can have the 16 rounds.
Except you kind of... can't carry what cops carry in LA lmao
@@OfficialFedHater ok, it's true, but the idea is valid. You can carry issue ammo in issue calibers, you just can't have as many rounds, or the latest and greatest if it isn't on the register, but... oh never mind.
@@RAkers-tu1ey I'd genuinely be impressed at anyone who even gets issued a CCW license in LA.
The whole point is who ever fires the shot, police or private citizen are responsible for that bullet once it leaves the barrel.
Correct.
Along the same lines, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the the issue of LEO's having to use department issued firearms, as opposed to having the freedom to use their personally owned firearms while on duty? Having had conversations with decision makers at various departments over the years, liability is always an issue that is cited by those who only authorize the use of dept issued firearms. Yet, I've never personally found a case where, as you lay out in this video, the use of a personally owned firearm made the difference between a 'good' outcome in court versus a 'bad' outcome in court. Great vid as always! Semper Fi!
Semper Fi Mike! I’ve never heard of a case like that either. When I was still a Chief of Police, I would allow my officers to carry personally owned firearms on duty so long as I could inspect the weapon to insure it was safe and functional, and the officer was able to qualify with it. The advantage I had/have is a fairly extensive background in firearms. My knowledge and experience allowed me to evaluate firearms and train officers in the use of various platforms. Most administrators, and many instructors, lack that breadth of knowledge. Rather, they are trained to operate/instruct/maintain only one type of firearm. Allowing officers to carry firearms that the instructors cannot adequately “teach”, or officers are uncertain how to use, or armorers can’t maintain MIGHT cause some liability concerns in the aftermath of a shooting. As I mentioned in the video, attorneys will always say “don’t do it.” Administrators who know little about firearms will usually follow their advice.
Mike, before I retired from my police department in 2018, our officers were authorized to use personally owned patrol rifles if they did not want to use one issued by the agency. There was a set criteria that was applied to the rifles and one of them was that there were no authorized modifications to the trigger group. Things such as optics, lights, etc were authorized however trigger work was a no-no. One of our officers was involved in a shooting with his personally owned rifle that was 100% justified. As our lead patrol rifle instructor I had to speak with the state investigators about the rifle and the process that was used to have it authorized for duty use, etc. After I presented the documents attesting to the rifle, the adherence to policy, etc, nothing else came from it. I agree with Chief in that so long as your actions are justified I would surprised that modifications or hand loaded ammo would be an issue.
I am an armed guard and have to carry a personally owned firearm. And the state has the serial number, and I have to qualify with the exact same weapon every year. At least if you had an issued weapon. You wouldn't have you're personal weapon tied up in court. That's the only pro of a "duty issue weapon".
I worked for 36 years for a large city police department that required (and still requires) officers to buy their own firearms. There were parameters, we could not use whatever we wanted, but there were accepted firearms and you had to qualify with every gun you wanted to be authorized to carry.
When I began, we had to use DA revolvers, .38 Special or .357 Magnum, minimum barrel length of 4", maximum barrel length of 6" and they had to be Colt or S&W manufacture. Later, Ruger was added as an accepted revolver.
When the department switched to allowing semi autos I chose a Beretta Model 92FS. When I went into plainclothes work in 1990 I chose a SIG P228 and S&W Model 6904 as my duty guns. After December, 1991, new officers could no longer opt for revolvers, but officers hired before then could continue using revolvers if they chose. The city still has this policy but since 2015 all semi-autos must be striker fired (glad I retired before then)
FWIW, officers who had started with revolvers were allowed to continue using them if they desired and some officers were carrying revolvers until fairly recently.
When I first started in law enforcement I had to use my personal weapon when I retired I was still using my personal rifle
Thank you for a splendid coverage of these critical aspects. These are reasons that I carry a high quality pistol chambered for .22lr and use only the best ammo that money can buy, and I practice, practice, practice.
I keep a loaded Smith mod 29
Forgive me if you've addressed this, but another type of liability issue rests with the tricked out finish jobs we've seen the last few years. The gun with the skull and crossbones or "cool" looking verbiage (like R.I.P.) embossed on it is functionally no different than the standard version of the same gun, but jurors seeing such a gun are likely to wonder about the guy claiming self defense.
Just my opinion but folks should avoid doing that to their guns not for legal reasons but because it's the tackiest thing ever.
I didn’t cover that topic in this video, but maybe I’ll discuss it in the future. Thanks for watching!
This is one reason why signs like "Protected by Smith & Wesson" would be used against you in court.
Like the guy that had a special message engraved on the inside of the dust cover… that made national news.
@@Jleitte " This is one reason why signs like "Protected by Smith & Wesson" would be used against you in court. "
No. It would not even be admissible.
All excellent points and well presented regarding a complex subject. Four things that I have learned, especially from my LE experience; do not modify a firearm’s internals if the firearm is to be used for self-defense. Changing sights or grips to enhance a handgun’s control is passable, in most cases. Second, only use factory ammunition in a firearm used for self-defense, and stay away from “Cutesy-named” ammunition. Even if you use ammunition that is used by your local LE agency, it can be used against you, unless you have an attorney who can effectively argue this point. Third, caliber does matter. Actually, it is over-penetration of the ammunition used, which could cause injury or death of a by-stander. Custom, hand-loaded ammunition will, more likely than not, work against you even if it did effectively stop a threat. Fourth, keep things simple. Extravagant equipment might impress your friends, but it weighs less with the bad guy - and juries. As you somewhat stated, “Actions speak louder than words.”
I agree with your take on things. Personally, I figure you can't go wrong if you use the same type of ammo the police in your jurisdiction use. So I use Federal Law Enforcement 9mm +P in my semi-auto and the Speer Gold Dot short barrel .357 ammo in my snubbie. My toes are right on the line, but not over.
Is that same ammo going to be looked favorably in the next county/state et al by a judge and or jury?
Very well said! This is my first time watching a video of yours. Based on the title I was ready to click away after 30 seconds but you very much surprised me with a very intelligent and rational explanation of things. Thanks!
You are most welcome. Thanks for watching.
Along the lines of this video, I have heard many guys around the range state that they almost never carry anything expensive for personal defense. The reason for this is that if you ever have to defend yourself with it, even if the police don't arrest you, they will collect that firearm for evidence. And it could take months to years to get it back if you are found not guilty. Although I have no personal experience with this... I can see this argument. The wheels of justice are really slow to turn currently.
"The reason for this is that if you ever have to defend yourself with it, even if the police don't arrest you, they will collect that firearm for evidence. And it could take months to years to get it back if you are found not guilty. "
I would rather have the best gun I can afford to save my life then worry about it being taken if in fact it does just that - save my life. I pay more each year in car insurance I never use than my carry EDC costs.
And for the great majority of shooters, that $2000 1911 will provide no real advantage over an $800 model when your life is on the line.
@@bjs301 - Are you calling an $800 gun cheap? Yeah that might just be a Glock with night sights, red dot and mounted light - basic but not cheap. I’d be comfortable carrying such and I agree it’s loss would be among the smallest problems at that point. Never having shot one, not sure I’d be comfortable with a base model high point ($200)- certainly not at night without light or night sights. Heck I’d be satisfied with my surplus TT-33,
@@finngamesknudson1457 Well $800 is certainly a lot cheaper than $2000. My point was that you can spend money on very expensive guns, but unless you are a competition shooter that expensive gun will probably provide no real advantage if your life is on the line.
That's why you buy an affordable hi-point 9mm for your EDC, Steve.
HR,
Really excellent presentation. I have heard most of this before, but you did a great job of explaining the ins and outs of how to present things in court. Also what sort of problems you can cause for yourself if you say the wrong thing, or the right thing at the wrong time. Keep up the good work.
Cheers,
Zeke
Thank you for sharing your experience.
You’re welcome Joseph. Thanks for watching!
Why would you ever want to give a prosecutor any additional angles with which to prosecute you? Why use hand loads when there are dozens of choices of great self defense ammo readily available? Why have a modified weapon or a tricked out trigger job when all that will do is invite more scrutiny? There are plenty of great weapons that will work just fine just as designed and manufactured at the factory. Being involved in a self-defense shooting is a horrible tragedy, even if it’s totally justified. I can’t see why clouding your innocence with hand loaded ammo or modified gear is a good idea.
My favorite carry round is ,Ultimate Destruction Mayhem Devastator 240 grain exploding hollowpoint,carry it in my platinum plated war issue Singer 1911.
You really should consider a full power load. I’ve never much cared for that reduced-recoil stuff.
@@hrfunk lol,brilliant....
Thanks again for a great video.
Personally, I look at my firearms, in light of defending myself and family, as just that...defense. That includes keeping myself as close to 'safe' from the law as possible as well. What good is defending yourself only to find yourself with bubba as a cellmate? What's the point of defending your family only to be taken away from them and tossed in prison?
Or losing everything you have worked for all your life? The only modifications I will make to any gun I have for defense is a better grip to fit my hand. I use factory ammo, factory trigger, factory springs. I do not use ammo named 'R.I.P.' or ;Zombie apocalypse' or 'extreme destruction' or any other such equivalent. For hunting and/or target shooting, that is a different story. But they stay in the safe and are only removed for those purposes.
I want to give prosecutors zero extra 'ammo' in destroying my life, just because they do not want me to defend my life.
Thorough, intelligent, rational analysis as usual … thank you H.R. !…
You're welcome. Mark. Thanks for watching!
I always caution people who want to use a NFA firearm for defense that additional charges can be brought against them in federal court for misuse of the NFA. I also warn them that an overeager DA may try to demonize the appearance of a firearm and call it a deadly assault weapon or sawed-off shotgun. For this reason I recommend keeping a firearm as vanilla as possible.
So, no sawed off M2. Got it.
@@icelandviking1961 Well you saw what happened to Patty Hearst.
Thank you, lots of food for thought. Heard the same advice from my attorney friend " don't do it "
Ha, ha! Well, at least he confirmed that part of what I said.
What I usually here people say about expensive is not the liability issue. It is that firearm is going to to end up in the evidence locker. I used to believe that to be an important factor until I realized that cost of Wilson Combat is generally going to be a very small percentage of your legal bill.
I saw a video on this topic by "The Armed Attorneys" channel. They are two actual defense attorneys. Their position is if you want to mod your trigger let a certified gunsmith do it. Then if the modification comes up in a civil suit you have the positive defense that modification was done by a factory certified gunsmith so he bears the primary responsibility. That is the position every OEM takes. If you, or someone not certified by the company, modifies the functionality of your firearm any warranty is voided. That ends their product liability to you and forms a defense if there is a civil suit as the result the use or failure of the firearm in question that can be attributed to the mod.
I saw that video too. HR did a good job with this video. They would very likely agree.
what kind of man wants the gunsmith to take primary responsibility take responsibility for your own actions and get a good lawyer not some shyster
Massad Ayoob said to contact the manufacturer of a weapon and get their exceptable minimal weight of trigger pull when putting in an aftermarket trigger. He then said to get this info emailed to you and put it in your archives. ( not saying your putting in the minimum wieght trigger) .Great information from both men!
Thanks Robert. I take that is quite a compliment.
Absolutely agree from my professional experience as well. Factory ammo regardless of brand and seemingly in all jurisdictions minimizes the MADE MORE POWERFUL TO KILL argument. The factory ammunition can be acquired by anyone so is a benefit potentially during a use of force defense. Hand loads for general practice, but I always recommend factory cartridges for defense. I would avoid things like the .454, .460 or .500 S&W, as a personal defense handgun due to the obvious perception. Absolutely the cost of a specific weapon is not a real concern its the action of the shooter that will be reviewed not how much the firearm costs. The only changes we could make to issue firearms is grips. Police Armorers as in the military are the only ones who can work on these weapons. Had a case like you mentioned where a drug hit man confronted two innocent citizens and disarmed them out on the victims property. Said victim had a Colt Gold Cup 1911 .45, after I got these bad guys in court they tried to say shooting my victim was an accident, until I said THE SHERIFF carries a Gold Cup 1911 .45 on duty ending the argument. More involved than that but the end result.
Thanks for the additional info Sergeant Major!
". Factory ammo regardless of brand and seemingly in all jurisdictions minimizes the MADE MORE POWERFUL TO KILL argument"
That is not a valid legal argument in a court of law. For a self-defense case, the ONLY thing that matters is WHY you shoot, not what you shoot. There is NO element of aggravated assault or homicide that includes that the gun/ammo is "more deadly". If you are legally justified in using deadly force, you could drop an ACME safe on the bad guy.
Outstanding Howard !
Thanks Rick!
You missed the most obvious one. Don't have guns with skulls on them or sayings like "you're F'ed" or "smile and wait for flash". Just don't do it. They say a lot about you character to juries.
"They say a lot about you character to juries."
The jury will never see it. It is inadmissible.
@@papimaximus95 Good luck with that, your mileage may vary, especially in civil court.
@@brianpdaniels You may want to learn the Rules of Evidence. Clearly you do not understand the law. BTW, why would you be in civil court? In Ohio, and many other states, a criminal is barred from any recovery in civil court based on their criminal actions. And as I ALWAYS say, only shoot criminals doing criminals sh*t. Now if you shoot someone over a parking space, throwing popcorn at you or they "look" suspicious, then you will have some issues to deal with.
@@papimaximus95 How many punisher skull guns do you own?
@@brianpdaniels "How many punisher skull guns do you own?"
Uh, none. I am an adult who understands weapons are not toys to be decorated.
Absolutely excellent video Mr. Funk. I really enjoyed it. Thank You for what you do sir
You’re welcome Chad. Thanks for watching!
I think I've got it... If I have to shoot a bad guy, toss his corpse in a wood chipper, then go find his lawyer and shoot him, too! ;-)
Joking aside, very good video. Most informative, as always.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
Ive had self-defense ammo discussion all the time. My advice is always this. People who want to EDC. Contact their local P.D and ask them what they use. Here in Florida when i Contact 4 separated PD and ask them what they use and what i was going to run in my EDC pistol that is. Federal syntech defense SJHP 138 grain round. Gives MAX penatration on impact WITHOUT over penatrating. People gotta do their homework 1st, and make calls to their local P.D and ask what they use. This is why i go with federal syntech defense SJHP 138 grain round. Its under what my local P.D uses
You are really getting into the weeds with many of your remarks good sir. I too have both a law enforcement and military background. I'm both a retired Marine and retired Police Officer. I also attended a very good law school for two years. I wasn't looking to become an attorney, I wanted to be a better Cop. The best way to really understand the legal systems is to attend law school. The legal training Police Officers get is just the tip of the iceberg. I thought I knew the law until I went to school. The what if as far as hand loads and modified firearms goes is very subjective. In school attorneys are thought that when the facts and evidence are with you, play to the facts. If the truth is with you play to the truth. If none of this is on your side pound on the table and make shit up to confuse the Jury. The prosecutor/plaintiffs attorney will higher some prostitute expert professional whiteness to testify that the modified weapon and hand loaded ammunition speaks to the state of mind that the defendant was hoping he/she was looking for the opportunity to shoot some innocent soul that had his/her promise of a great life until the defendant used his/her fiendish mind to create the perfect killing weapon that snuffed this precarious life with so much promise short. (pretty good ain't it) Your attorney will have an expert whiteness(s) testify to the opposite. You did the modificatios to your weapon and ammunition so as to greatly enhance your ability to stop this totally un provoked and vicious attack by a carrier criminal upon you the innocent victim. Because you took the added efforts and experience to greatly enhance your ability to stop and only stop this violent criminal and minimize the threat to harm any innocent by stander. If you actually hit the punk in the leg because of an A.D. are you going to be stupid enough to say so? No, what you would say is you shot him in the leg because you didn't want to kill him even though you had the legal justification to do so. You would also testify that your ammunition was so above and beyond the capability of factory ammunition that because of the components you purchased at your own expense and the extra efforts you put into assembling this ammunition, the punk in question is still alive because you only had to shoot hin once in the leg to stop him as opposed to a magazine dump in the gut like the Cops sometimes have too do. Now this all sounds like a giant load of BULLSHIT and hurt don't it. Well that about sums it up. The legal system isn't about guilt or innocence, truth or lie, right and wrong. It's about the assignment of blame and who wins who looses. The Jury wasn't there, they don't know what actually happened. All they do know is the evidence and testimony they heard and saw at a trial that could last for between from one to four months. They have to decide who they find credible and will receive instructions from the Judge on how the are too apply this too he law.
The scary thing about this all is that your legal expenses could easily get up to $500,000 and that's thousands of dollars just in pre trial expenses before you step into a court room.
The smart money says purchase one of the insurance policies available today for people that keep and carry a firearm for self protection.
The policy I have covers up to $6,000,000 in legal fees and expenses. For the once a year $500 each year premium I pay that's money well spent.
Prosecutors and plaintiffs attorneys are like professional baseball players. They don't want to spoil their batting average. If you can bring a $6,000,000 dollar defense fund to the table they are very unlikely to charge you. If the loose and they most likely would, it makes them look bad. That effects their image and makes it harder to get work.
Keep all of this n mind. Remember 90& of all self defense pleas are BULLSHIT. Their lawyer tells them to say that. Your lawyer has to build your argument of self defense to the Jury.
Agreed. Then it becomes a matter of what the community (as represented by the jury) is willing to permit.
When going through the criminal investigator school at FLETC, we were always told to "think court". Of course this was training for our cases, but the lawyers teaching the course said think of CIVIL COURT as well as criminal court.
Yep. The doctrine of double jeopardy is somewhat ambiguous for those of us in law enforcement.
As we all know, the use of serious or deadly physical force will be justifiable for a civilian on the following:
DR.BARKS
D- deadly physical force being used against me or 3rd party
R - robbery, any degree
B - burglary, of an occupied building or dwelling
A - arson. Applies to buildings only
R - rape, forced
K - kidnapping, any degree
S - sexual act, criminal, forcible
At a self-defense situation, the shooter maybe justifiable, however if there are any accidental / unintentional shots, the shooter will be charged civilly. Liability insurance does not cover the criminal use of a firearm, only accidental or unintentional incidents with limitations.
Remembering, the use of serious or deadly physical force must be last, last resort, reasonable and necessary, otherwise the shooter maybe criminally & civilly charged.
It is better to avoid the use of serious or deadly physical force by being as tolerant as possible. Always take cover & lay low, most times a criminal perpetrator will retreat when the conceal carrier displays his conceal carry gun in justifiable self-defense situation. When a criminal perpetrator retreats, the use of serious or deadly physical force is no longer permitted.
Thankfully, the risks of being a victim is low, but always be prepared and proficient in the laws of self-defense. Have a ready / reliable conceal firearm and practice regularly. Be gun shy!
Very good video Mr. Howard I really did get some food for thought. Thank You
You’re welcome Ken. Thanks for watching!
I’ve never made ammo at that level. I exclusively carry handloads for CCW. They are not illegal where I live. That being said, my pistol loads mimic top end, even, duplicate LEO carry loads. Why do I do that? What difference does it make? I keep my ammo at the same specs as the LEO duty ammo so I am not "out of the norm" for performance. Why not just buy factory ammo then? Yeah, do me a favor today: run right out to Walmart and do that today….not available. Mine is. Train with what you carry. I do and it is done far more consistently and with a higher level of care. It is also cheaper to make. Since it is not illegal, I am not going to give up a right or freedom because of fear. Do what you feel comfortable with. I do.
Do me a favor. Use the internet to order ammunition if you can’t find it in a local store. Walmart doesn’t sell handgun ammunition anymore.
@@jpettit27 did you listen to the video?
I, too duplicate factory defense loads (9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP) which are used by many major LE groups nationwide. Any claim that I created "killer ammunition" would be easily dismissed by submission to any ballistics lab in the USA. A 124 grain Gold Dot at 1,210 FPS from my handload, and a 124 Gold Dot at 1,210 FPS from a factory load are going to result in identical performance.
What setup is best for reloading for new shooters?
I carried a .45 ACP issued by the Navy as a Corpsman attached to 2nd Recon Marines.
I'm carrying 9mm now.
Is .45 or 9 easier to load?
I like Hornady XTP bullets unless you can recommend a better alternative.
@@thisismagacountry1318
Well, they both load the same really EXCEPT if you have fat fingers. Lol
The smaller the caliber the harder it is for my extra large hands to handle components.
Getting into reloading now will be almost impossible because components are so low. Primers are all but extinct. Save your brass and hopefully things will swing the other way when we get a conservative back in the white house…
As for equipment: Dillon, hands down. Hornady Lock N Load AP is a decent press. If you are going to load rifle cartridges for precision shooting, the Lee line of MANUAL presses will work fine. Hope that helps.
Thank you. This is great information to consider as a concealed carry individual. Well done sir.
You’re welcome. Thanks for watching!
I always carry a stock firearm other than custom grips or sights and I always carry factory loaded, commonly available ammunition. I don't see any significant advantage to be gained by putting a competition trigger or "boutique" ammunition in my guns and only potential negative issues in court. Besides, shot placement is far more important than any special characteristics the gun or ammo may have. And, it us a lot easier/cheaper to practice with the same ammo you carry if you are not paying $60 for 20 rounds of ammo.
I bought an S&W Shield after some research and I hate the crappy trigger, but I won't modify it because of the idiocy of anti-gun DAs and families of dead scumbags.
I'll just sell it and buy a better pistol.
A competition trigger is designed to be lighter and easier to squeeze, smoother. This is to help you avoid pulling to the left and down (usually). In other words… for better SHOT PLACEMENT.
@@extremesheepdawg6379 it's also easier to have the trigger break early in a stressful self defense situation.
@@patmcbride9853 I have had this conversation many, many times with many people. Not one of which was ever able to point me to a case where a trigger upgrade was a relevant issue in a trial over a justifiable self defense shooting. Furthermore, many states have pre-emption laws which prohibit a civil suit if the shooting was determined to be justified. And just my opinion here, the Apex drop in for the Shield is only negligibly better than the stock, hinged trigger.
@@floydi9709 The fact is that you may not have to deal with it at trial, but you are more likely to be tried if the government wants to chill self defense.
most of that dont apply in Texas but i travel sometimes and good content for sure 👍🏼
Be careful. More of it might apply in Texas than you think.
@@hrfunk your right here it depends on the counties and citys i assume its like that it other states too where i stay cops and everyone is 2A strong
The advice I read in one of Massad Ayoob's books was to imagine how the opposing attorney would present something to an anti-gun jury.
Obviously, there are limits to this, since many prosecutors or plaintiff's attorneys are going to act as if no use of a gun is ever justified, but it's best not to hand them ammunition without need.
With this in mind, I don't put zombie grips, Punisher decals, slogans, or the like on my defensive firearms. I did put a new hammer spring in my Radom P64 to bring the double-action trigger pull down from "needs a log splitter to squeeze it" to around seventeen pounds.
Now that was a heavy trigger!
@@hrfunk tell me bout it…my arther kicked in in my hand just from that comment
Excellect video as always. Ive recently discovered your channel so my apologies for the belated comment.
After I ETSed from the 3/75 Ranger Reg. I was involved in a criminal case when a man tried to rob me at gun point. I was unarmed but the robber's night did not go per his plan. However, I came VERY close to felony charges because the prosecuter tryed to use my military background against me. All worked out in my favor thanks to my attorney.
Point is, your video has made me wonder how things would go for me if I was forced to deploy my CCW?
I’m glad everything worked out in your favor. I hope you never have to worry about a future case involving a handgun. The Daniel Penny case in New York is a good example of how bad such a case might go.
I live in the outer edges of L.A. County near the border of San Bernardino and Orange counties. It's semi rural here but more suburban than rural. I prepared a conceal carry pistol about three or four years ago but will finally begin conceal carrying soon after I take more classes. It's a .40 cal S&W Shield with a Crimson Trace light/green laser combo that's very intuitive. As soon as you wrap your hand around the grip, the middle finger immediately engages the button that's below the trigger guard, which instantly turns on the light and laser. I also stippled it, ported it, and and replaced the recoil spring and guide rod with after market ones. All modifications were done to manage recoil and to be able to control and handle the gun more efficiently. I never and won't replace the original trigger.
I always tell people that a prosecutor will throw out "What if this". Very wise words, thank you
I might be moving from Texas to Florida in a year so I'm covered.
Excellent video! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gotten into rather heated discussions with someone who has no knowledge and never hand loaded telling me that if I used hand loaded ammunition in a self-defense scenario that I would be arrested and charged with murder having my first born child taken away from me and anything else you could possibly imagine! Now I’ve done substantial amount of diligence in trying to find any case where someone has had chargers brought against them solely because they were using reloaded handload ammunition! Now I can tell you with absolute certainty that this is never happened but what I can tell you is that I’ve never been able to find a case where someone was charged in a self-defense situation solely because they used hand loaded ammunition! The simple fact of the matter is if it’s a justifiable use of deadly force it’s the justifiable use of deadly force and it matters not whether or not you used factory ammunition or handloads! I’ve gone so far as to offer to pay one rather narcissistic individual that was arguing with me 100 bucks if he could show me one case. But if he couldn’t he had to give me 100 needless to say he did not take me up on my offer. As for point number two I’ve always been of the mindset that I certainly did not want to use my most expensive custom ivory gripped gold inlaid firearm as my every day Carrie because any event that I did have to use it in a self-defense scenario I would probably lose it at least for a considerable period of time if not permanently while the case was investigated. Price of a tool is an important it’s whether or not that tool Ken accomplished the task which it was designed for. As for point number three I refer you back to my comment on point number one. If it’s a justifiable use of deadly force, it’s a justifiable use of deadly force! If it’s questionable you’re gonna be charged based on the actual circumstances not solely because you polished your trigger or your feed ramp!
Excellent……well stated.
You are absolutely correct.
It doesn’t make one damn bit of difference if you use a chainsaw or a BB gun in determining justification.
Chainsaw? Now I have THAT image in my mind!
Great vid and info, Mr. Funk! Are you on Keto? You look like you've trimmed up! Rock on, good sir!
Thank you! No, no keto for me.
Well if an attorney is always going to say "don't do that" then I guess I don't have to watch past the 9:10 mark....LOL
Thanks for the great video,lot of good information!
You’re welcome!
Excellent discussion, Mr. Funk! Thank you! I'm a 1997 graduate of Harvard Law School, practicing criminal defense for almost 25 years, a use of deadly force referral attorney for USCCA, and a lifelong firearms user and trainer. Your presentation was spot on in that you made the singularly most determinitive point in these cases crystal clear, again and again: each case is unique, and will depend on its unique facts being analyzed under the unique laws of your state. The only universal truth is that there is no universally correct answer to these hypotheticals. The best one can do (standard disclaimer, this IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, CONSULT AND RETAIN YOUR OWN LOCAL ATTORNEY, THE FOLLOWING IS MERELY MY PERSONAL OPINION AND GENERALIZED OBSERVATIONS NOT MEANT IN ANY WAY AS LEGAL COUNSEL, etc...etc...) is to know your local laws, practice and train with your firearms, then practice and train some more. Furthermore, numerous companies offer "carry insurance", at rates low enough that I urge all of my friends and students to obtain coverage--I'm not selling any specific company, but if you can afford to carry, you really can't afford not to have coverage. Along with professional training, it's the best investment you can make. Finally, if you choose to carry, the best use of force scenario is the one avoided completely--stay situationally aware, deescalate and walk away when safely possible, and pray every day you never have to use your firearm on another human being. Even if an assailant was the 'lowest of the low', and in cases so justfied and compelling that Mother Theresa would take the shot and no legal consequences resulted, the hardest men I know still remain fundamentally affected when forced to take a life. My clients have, to the man, said the only thing worse than having to use their firearm defensively was if they hadn't. Stay at default Condition Yellow, stay safe all, and hopefully Noone reading this will ever need to take a second mortgage to hire my kind.
Thanks so much Counselor. I greatly appreciate your input.
@@hrfunk My pleasure! Keep up the great work, and if you ever get to the Denver area, let this old Mormon boy buy you a beer!
@@michaelmartin1519 Will do!
Here in georgia. In a self defense scenario. If the use of the firearm in a justifiable situation. As long as your firearm isnt modified to a full auto. Modifying a weapon isnt going to be an issue. I see your points and understand your point of view. Although most of the points you bring are all up to the courts to decide the final outcome. So like you said, the case is different with each situation. Good video.
Thank you!
7:05 Correction. On March 28th, 2019, Ohio changed the burden of proof shifting for self defense. The State now has the BOP that it was NOT self defense once asserted. ORC 2901.05:
A) Every person accused of an offense is presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and the burden of proof for all elements of the offense is upon the prosecution. The burden of going forward with the evidence of an affirmative defense, and the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, for an affirmative defense *other than self-defense, defense of another, or defense of the accused's residence presented as described in division (B)(1) of this section,* is upon the accused.
Thanks! I think I was aware of that, but it slipped my mind.
Always a great show
Thanks Tom!
Great topic. ALWAYS controversial in any arena. As for MY ‘carry ammo’..defensive use, it’s what an LEO was distributed as a local police officer. He had granted me a portion of his allotment. BOTH 9mm and .40. With him being an acquaintance..as I am not law enforcement, and us having “this” conversation, it made sense even back almost 10 years ago (which is the age of this ammo). Anyway THAT was key to me. Thanks..
Well done HR. Nice change of pace. I've seen these subjects addressed on a bunch of different TH-cam channels and other venues, and you covered it as well any of the other presenters. I'm sure your Legal Dept (Mimi) reviewed it before you posted it. 🤣Keep up the good work. Semper Fi!
Ha, ha! Actually, she hasn’t seen it yet.
I was the commander of our SWAT Team for years and my agency was close to Quantico, VA. We built a close working relationship w/the USMC and they were good enough to build our sniper rifles, at our expense, for the specific officer it was assigned to. We were also fortunate enough to train at Combat Village a few times a year. It was a job I enjoyed immensely. Also, your presentation on this topic is one of the best I’ve ever seen, well done.
The assignment I miss most from my law-enforcement career is that of the SWAT team sniper. I miss that every day!
@@hrfunk My boss was the deputy chief who was very supportive. Almost anything I put in my budget, even a supplemental, was green lighted. I’m guessing those times are gone forever.
Probably.
Yes If we are to carry a firearm, always absolutely (CYA), and that should include carry insurance, you could loose everything with a civil lawsuit.
Excellent video. Nice to hear common sense being spoken. Thanks.
Thank you Roy!
Use your local PD load. Or, copy NYPDs load. A lot of research and testing went into it.
I have two exact carry weapons with holsters. If they take me weapon and holster I have a replacement as needed. Both weapons are above average quality just because I can afford them and I trust them. Also have plenty of magazines for each.
💯 agree on moding your EDC. LEAVE IT STOCK. ( internals ). Me, because i have Cellebel palsy on my left side i added grip tape where i needed for my support hand and a magwell to help ad in reloading. Thats it. Leave your EDC pistol stock. 👌💯
Great video MR. Funk, very informative.
Thanks Bobby!
Excellent explanation !!! I live in Illinois / criminals HEAVEN ...no matter how justified you defend your loved one’s live as well as yourself... you will NEVER get fair trial here unfortunately....
I might consider moving if I were you.
👌 breakdown of the legal side of gun ownership and the court side of it. This is why, HRFUNK even before I I bought my 1st pistol and got my CCWP I joined USCCA. I tell everyone who does own a firearm to get coverage even if that person ONLY hunts/ target shoots and doesn't EDC. Get coverage. I like USCCA because of their online training classes they cover everything, even how to handle yourself in court if that day comes. If you don't have gun owners insurance yourself. Look up USCCA. 👌. if you join, your spouse get 50% of their plan. Win. Win.
A perfect example is O.J. Simpson, acquitted of murder, and held liable in the following civil suit.
Thank you for the video, you are very knowledgeable on the subjects. I personally carry a Glock 19 with factory loaded hollow point ammunition because that's why our local law enforcement carry. I was told by a lawyer years ago that you'll never have an issue in court with the weapon or ammunition if you carry exactly what law enforcement carry.
Be careful with words like “never” and “always” when it comes to court proceedings.
Lawyer sleaze can conjure up any nonsense imaginable.
"This guy is a wanna be cop!"
Well, you get the idea.
Smiling!
I was a reserve officer for the local county sheriffs office for some years. I am also a reloaded for even more years. Sheriffs office didn't supply ammo for reserve officers, so I used my own .45 ACP reloads. When the full time Lieutenant over the ammo and other stuff found out, he said you can't use reloads, the courts would destroy your case with you using them. You have to use Speer Gold Dot like all the rest of us. I said, in that case you should give me a box, and he did, still got them loaded in a couple mags. I was more or less an unpaid transport officer for the most part, with patrol around the lakes in the summer. We traveled 100's of miles in a day to pick up on warrants, take back and forth to prison's for court, inmates to doctor, dental, mental and much more, all over the state of Arkansas, and many other states just to be bad mouthed by most the full time guys and the sheriff. One day I was getting ready to come in for a staff meeting as reserve president at age 69 and thought why am I doing this. Called Chief Deputy, said think I hanging it up, not fun any more. Went from 22 reserves to around 5, I think now, I must have opened the gate.
Our own local sheriffs department went through a similar transition. Up until recently they had a small army of reserves. Now they’re down to just a few, maybe half a dozen.
Pretty sure any attorney would have a field day with a person involved in a kill that used the new so called RIP ammo would be made an example of.
So much of that would dele d upon the facts of the case.
Finally a worthwhile analysis in English not "legalese". Thank you
I've bought expensive guns as well as cheapish guns. They all work the same, and it doesn't matter to the bad guy which I'm using to defend myself and my family.
My glock 19, I did so much to it that the trigger pull was right around 3 lbs. It was only after taking it to the range, I realized that it was far too soft for a carry gun. So now I've put some stock spring's back in it to get it back to about 5.5 lbs.
Sometimes, cool just isn't safe.
That's what I was getting at in the video, if the modification results in an unintended/unjustifiable injury or damage, it could become a factor in litigation.
A Bryco does not work at all
Am glad to hear your opinion that various hand loadings won't have much effect on a case, in your opinion. I will likely be carrying a black powder revolver for self-defense (matter of preference, not legal necessity!), and literally every round is "hand loaded". The only limitation I would use is that I wouldn't load it with more than about 35 grains because I would want to avoid power over 250 ft-lbs which would damage the pistol (Colt style). Also, since I know that round ball fired with that small amount of powder is likely to remain inside the body of the suspect, with very little chance of going on to damage or injure anything else (especially because the ball would likely be horribly deformed by then and far from aerodynamic), it's unlikely to damage anything I wasn't aiming at. As I've mentioned before I'm a former police officer but have never had to investigate such a situation-- neither black powder nor hand-loaded ammo (that I knew of).
I only know of one modern case involving the use of a black powder revolver. Oddly, it took place in my former jurisdiction. The person firing the shot was convicted of murder. You might want to look up the case just to know the details. The defendant was Paul Claren, and the jurisdiction is Orrville, OH. I believe the case has been appealed.
@@hrfunk Thanks for mentioning the case. I read the court decision document, and it seems his actions stunk to high heaven from the get-go. Apparently "under disability" in Ohio is the equivalent of "Felon in possession of a firearm" here or at least a person previously prohibited from possessing a firearm due to some previous conviction, and that was mistake #1. Then constantly mentioning the situation and even the weapon to countless people including law enforcement prior to... then getting into it with neighbors.... then attempting to apply "castle doctrine" on a lawn... good gawd, he was a walking how-to checklist of how to get convicted. You or Law of Self Defense should do an instructional video on that case! Anyway, it looks like he lost his appeal, not surprisingly.
By the way apparently the victim's family attempted to sue Cabella's/Bas Pro Shop, don't know if it was successful. But it does explain why now, none of their outlets I've been to so far here or in Florida carry the bp guns anymore, and are super skittish about even selling the accessories.