WHO'S THE TRUE LCS GOAT? - Best Damn League Show
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- Thorin and IWDominate discuss the accolades, history, and hype surrounding Bjergsen and Doublelift.
This episode is a companion piece to Dom's original LCS GOAT video - • WHO'S THE REAL LCS GOA...
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The Best Damn League Show is a new podcast for 2022 (usually) focused on the LEC and European League of Legends hosted by Christian "IWillDominate" Rivera and Duncan "Thorin" Shields.
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:16:59 - End of season awards
0:24:18 - Season 3
0:41:19 - Varying levels of competition
0:48:18 - Season 8
0:59:47 - Season 10
1:07:52 - Strength of teams argument + Season 7
1:23:20 - Season 4 + The coach argument
1:31:16 - Season 5 + fan/analyst votes
1:36:38 - Which player would you rather build a team around?
1:46:18 - CLG kicked Doublelift and still won LCS
2:02:04 - Can an LCS ADC ever be "better" than Bjergsen?
2:12:04 - Faker argument + Troll voting in end of season awards
2:22:57 - Namei vs Uzi example + closing thoughts
#lcs
#LoLEsports
#LoLPodcast
#ESBIntro - เกม
The fact Thorin is pushing back so hard and trying to pick apart some of Dom's points instead of just agreeing and accepting everything is what makes this duo great. No bullshit, great discussion.
He is picking it apart better that rottweiler picking apart kids
absolutely banging content and those kind of contents are literally league of legends esport history.
This show goes even with the Summoning Insight episode with Dom, Monte and Thorin ranking their GOAT's of every position
Most people wouldn’t work together after back and forth like this. This is what makes these two professionals and the show, the best damn league show!
Prob the best content/discussion I’ve heard in a while for league. Haven’t followed the game much outside of worlds for three maybe four years now but hearing some of the history throughout made me feel even more engaged constant moments of “wow I remember that” when things were brought up like that first EG roster I forgot were even a thing. Glad to see you both doing well and involved in the scene and hope you’re both happy in life and have good health.
Man just Thorin and dom togheter always nice
Agreed. No Monte third wheel is great
The thing people forget about the 2020 playoffs, is that while bjerg is carrying most the series, vs the toughest opp. TL it’s actually DL that steps up and Carries the fuck out of that series
Thank the league gods (aka Thorin and Dom) for this content
Praise be
this is like the LoL version of basketball's UNDISPUTED. more like this!!
Who is Skip and who is the pro football hall of famer tight end Shannon Sharpe?
@@MrAlexvizz thorin is skip ofc a not player becoming the most polarizing journalist
dom wasn‘t quite shannon level in league but pretty good himself
Yall are amazing and the memory checks you guys do to each other is great. Yall both have great memories!
I think content like this is so important for people to see because theres a chance the way they argue in a fair and calm way, will rub off on the veiwer and make them a better and more fair arguer in their own lives. These kinds of discussions are always useful. Dom and Thorin are attacking each others arguments, not each other. And they can say "sure" or "fair enough" when someone makes a counter point instead of getting defensive. Bravo to both of you gentlemen.
This would be a fun point in the GOAT discussion. Is it worse to be replaced by Powerofevil or Tactical?
No because DLift got kicked for playing poorly and negative attitude, Bjerg retired and chose PoE. Kind of different. I love both players and just think THEY are the goats. Like I personally don’t want to put one above the other but yes if i had to, bjerg. But point is, not really a discussion imo.. it’d be an interesting one though if bjerg got kicked for underperforming and was replaced by PoE then it would be very interesting
What a banger video. Even tho I agreed with Dom from the get go I loved how much Thorin is pushing back. Made me reevaluate some of my own stance
This is much needed historical work. A great and insightful discussion.
Dom&Thorin checks&balances
Great synergy!
This is a mad cool discussion. Good show blokes.
It’s great that they can have heated discussion without getting in their feelings. Truly the best damn league show
These topical discussions are fucking banging. Thank you for going that in-depth with topics like these!
Also I myself deal with aspergers. To me it is a thing of beauty to watch how Thorin looks for logical inconsistencies in these discussions and how he brings these up as talking points and topics. I especially admire how both parties are able to change their viewpoints once the logic is explained. The way Thorin brings up these topics is actually so helpful for me. I always take away some ways to introduce a new topic to people or how best to convey your own thoughts to other people. Thanks to both of you for having this intense discussion!
How crazy is it that the LCS "GOAT" hasn't made worlds since 2015 without the "Runner-up" on his team.
when Core JJ came to NA he was hands and brain above everyone
As ad he suck but as support he is good
Great back and forth. Great video
Love to see a legit discussion to clear up some of the messy narratives in the space
next year do perkz vs caps this year ppl will just have recensy bias
The argument will end when Dom is forced to watch Caps completely dick Perkz in Spring Finals 2018.
The old head Thorin and the young crack Dom. Ya love to see it
Great job as always
So... I call my younger relatives my Lils (littles). It's my responsibility to challenge and help the growth of my Lils. Thorin does an amazing job of promoting his Lils.
The benefit is being a great guide for people u care about. Learning younger and fresh perspectives, and giving ur Lils an anchor if they want/need to take risk.
Mad props to Thorin!!!
This was a great video though. Loved how you both were respectful
I just realized the "Best Damn League Show" in youtube title never have a period
im ready for this banger
Truly an episode to remember.
You have to discount Bjerg's 2017 summer MVP as well, tbh. Jensen was definitely ripped off (by troll voters, people who voted jensen last as mids for zero reason). He was also 50 kills above the next player, and also set the all-time record for kills in a game (on leblacn) which still has yet to be broken.
Agree
Why didn't DOM mention that Doublelift carried TL Game 4 and 5 before the Zven throw in Game 6?!!!! He was far and away the best player after TL were 0-2 down in the next two games. How can he possibly say Doublelift was not outplaying Zven ?
Great content
This was a banger thank you.
I don’t care for the screaming match but these two undoubtedly know way too fucking much about league of legends
This is my argument:
When Bjergsen and Doublelift were both competing, you would always would rather have Doublelift.
Bjergsen was always the best mid laner, but not by much.
Doublelift was the kind of player that could go to one of the worst teams (2017 TL), save them from relegation, and beat TSM in that team.
You can say he was carried some splits with Corejj and Impact, but then how do you explain him winning back to back championships with Olleh and Pobelter?
6 hour vod?
School is in session!!
I love the cross examination grilling, it's in good faith but its good to hear some actual discussion/back and forth that refine points as opposed to the reddit people screening past each other
A testimony to this format, even though I am a faker fan (I don't watch lpl) I want to see thoorin knock him down a few pegs in favor of Rookie.
I get Thorin's take on Dyrus but im curious what his excuse for Kelsey Moser would be. Her list was as troll as Dyrus'
Sadly for most people. Playing devil's advocate is seen as offensive. But I love it :D good episode :)
Thooring faces are something else
1:20:25 This part is so true.
BIG UPLOAD ABOSLUTELY MASSIVE!
2:07:06 This is the biggest point. According to Dom, Doublelift always had the best players and was always carried. But he won two championships in a row, both very dominantly, with players like Pobelter and Olleh (both never the best in their role or superstars).
I would argue that Impact was the best player of that team both years(2018/2019). Especially in 19, Impact carried basically every important series they played
@@zurashubitidze4765 holy the reverse engineering on this is hilarious. Impact was one of the worst players on the team and they always had to go back to protect the doublelift comps by the time of playoffs and kudos to impact the played that to the perfection. Impact couldn't play carry tops.
@@darthbelicheck3559 He literally carried them at MSI where carry tops where meta. Go back and watch spring finals, MSI, beginning of Summer and Worlds goup stage games.
Thorin and Dom not having a contrarian opinion challenge (impossible)
The obvious counter to the argument of "well Bjerg said DL is better" is DL has said dozens of times that LCS splits mean nothing, and considering winning LCS splits are literally his ONLY claim to fame then by his own metrics and judgment he's accomplished nothing in his career.
MSI Finals? Beating IG in bo5 which is probably the best acomplishment of any NA team ever
@@evanblaylock2750 getting 3-0 in the fastest msi finals isn't a claim to fame.
ok this the content here
Lookin at twitter, I almost thought this wasnt gonna happen
I don't think it's fair to say Lustboy made the bot lane of TSM better. Lustboy's value to the team was him leaving wildturtle in the lane alone to go roam around the map. I even remember seeing multiple instances where he'd be down several levels on champions like Annie due to him going into the enemy jungle setting up vision. To that end, I believe Lustboy's style of support did make the team in it's entirety way better, and was arguably the primary reason TSM even won that 2014 summer split.
53:21 Caught him Thorin
Doublelift got that star power tho 😎 "Everyone else is trash"
The real NA goat is Dom, great show as always gents thanks
He's one of if not the only one of the old guard who keeps talking about league right?
From my recollection, CLG had a shit jungle/top even though they got Link, it was probably because hotshotgg didnt want to get off the roster from Thorin. I didnt even remember Voyboy being a part of CLG. I think Monte has said multiple times that CLG scrimmed a certain strat/comp in Korea and didnt use it. I can agree with Thorin that CLG at that time was a clown org @1:28:50. Dom clapping Clg in 2015 lol, idk why I remember DL calling cop trash and getting clapped that series.
Worlds content is gonna be amazing
Rookie is probably the best player of all time over Faker (“greatest” requires winning bias). He's been relied upon to be one of the carries for every team he's been on due to circumstance (weaker teammates in different positions at various points in his playing career apart from 2018 IG) rather than being allowed to fall back into a supportive role. He simply doesn't have that luxury playing in a more competitive league in LPL (harder to have players who outclass their peers due to depth and spread of talent across multiple teams in LPL, yet Rookie still can which is why you see many matches and splits where he's the MVP) and not having the pull or player development of an organisation like T1 and their academy. Many star players or prospects who end up becoming stars play alongside Faker which ends up stacking the deck especially against the LCK which apart from the top 2 or 3 teams aren't in the same tier due to the individual talent discrepancy being massive. In my opinion if there's one player whose level has still not dropped for an extended amount of time from being in contention for best mid in the world it's Rookie, regardless of team success which as a single player in a team game he will never be in complete control of (Messi, Lebron, MJ still need good teammates to win and have had seasons ending in failure without such teammates).
I like how the european says "An american is the goat of lcs" and the american thinks that the european is the goat of lcs.
The answer is always Impact is our goat!
15:30 Completely disagree. Regular season games mean absolutely nothing except for how they affect playoffs. Every split is a tournament and the best players will win the most over time. Playoff games are all that matters because you know both teams are win or go home.
1:31:48 - CLG Spring 2015 roster: lol.fandom.com/wiki/NA_LCS/2015_Season/Spring_Season
(feel free to reply with other useful and relevant links)
They needed a moderator for this, the amount of bad faith arguments in this video were maddening
Thorin is actually pushing back on a lot of Dom's arguments. Well done Thorin. Dom's original video was also flawed, picking out moments where Doublelift played badly and focusing on those, even when he played well in the rest of the game and many other games. The only way to put Bjergsen above Doublelift is to insinuate that Doublelift was carried for most of his championships while Bjergsen carried all of his championships. And that times where Bjergsen failed, was because his teammates were garbage, while times that Doublelift failed was because he underperformed. To me, this argument discredits Doublelift's legacy and is very disingenuous.
I think dom has probably never played as a laner.
As a midlaner, your influence on the game and the control of your own performance is much reliant on yourself than anything else.
As a adc, you heavily rely on the support and jungle, specially because the lane is longer ans it's much easier for the jungle to get you.
So yeah, the same player can win 100% of his 1v1 match ups and have a 50% game win rate, while the same player can win 50% of his 2v2 match ups and have the same 50% game win rate because as a duo laner, not everything is In your hands.
Not only that, but Riot began introducing changes to the game and the overall meta that slowly gave more power and agency to other roles in the game compared to what the ADC role could do... Like, in the early seasons of LoL, ADCs were arguably the strongest role in the game. You got Bloodthrister first item for cheap and you basically steam-rolled the game. The joke was that supports at the time were a walking ward with zero income, and junglers had to build machete and were item starved. The meta was basically try to get advantages from pure laning or a jungle gank and then all 4 guys protect the ADC in teamfights...
After like Season 4, Riot began nerfing the ADC role relative to other roles... ADC was still strong, but now you needed to farm up for at least a couple of items before you could do any damage and have any agency, as oppose to just bully people in lane and carry off one item like it was before because everyone else was so weak...
Not only that, like i mentioned, support role got stronger, junglers got stronger, top laners were now bringing teleport to the game so they could TP behind you if you played over aggressively in lane (obviously, much harder to TP behind a mid laner and punish him because of short lane), supports started roaming a lot more around the map, meaning the ADC again didn't have that early game protection and had to play way safer and not really try to push any advantage... Teams began learning how to stack a wave and tower dive you, again something that's extremely hard to execute against a mid laner in mid lane. There was the 2v1 meta, where laning phase as a skill was completely removed from the game... Now it was all about picking an ADC that can push towers quickly and rotate around the map... So ADC's with great laning phases and early games were essentially nullified.
Basically it got harder and harder to have agency and make individual plays as an ADC player as the game progressed. Riot wanted to shift the role into what it was intended to do in the first place to be more about scaling into the late game and carrying team-fights, which is fair enough, because if you had ADCs that could just bully people in lane without any items like Lucian it was kind of a broken role...
Of course mid lane had its own meta changes and stuff, but the role is inherently the hardest to punish for mistakes early game, because its the shortest lane. It's a role that's way less vunerable and has more playmaking options than playing ADC. That's just how it is.... So naturally you'd expect a mid laner to be the one who makes more game deciding plays like key engages, assasinating the enemy carry, using utility to unlock his own teammates, throw out key poke etc. The role is just much less specialized than being a point and click auto-attack bot which is what ADC is essentially about... It's like making an argument that top lane carries the game because ''look at how much damage they soak'', or support carries the game because ''look how much vision they provide''... Well yeah, that's what they're suppose to do in the game... That's their role. So judging a mid-laner and an adc player through the lens of 'how many game-winning individual plays they made' is always going to be inherently bias towards the mid-lane player because he plays the champions and the role that's specialized for that... The ADC is the one that's suppose to follow up and do the damage OFF the mid-laners engage... Any advantageous 'play' an ADC player makes on their own it's purely a bonus... Because he does not have the tools to do them in the first place...
Lcs all time team: impact xmithie berg dlift (support is the most tricky: aphro/core Jj/ lustboy all bring something on the table and change the scene)
Lustboy!?!?!?
Why is there no mention about how different the roles are? It's not just "Doublelift vs Wildturtle" or some other adc. In botlane ther are 4 people, 8 summoner spells, and 16 skills. Not to mention that it's a long lane, which makes ganks and teleports much more problematic. Mid lane is a pure 1v1. You don't have to worry about another player in your lane feeding or making 1 misplay and ruining the lane. It's sooooooo much easier to carry mid. That's why I always played mid or top. I never had the balls to deal with the frustration and challenge of bot lane. Yeah, you know a match midlane. My champion beats yours. It's so much more difficult to have a knowledge of how 4 different champions interact. Knowing that this particular duo loses until level 4 where if the support lands the stun it's a free kill.
It's like comparing Tom Brady to a running back. Or trying to make a direct comparison between Steph Curry and Shaq.
Sneaky is the real LCS NA GOAT
Dom's arguments sounds reasonable until you realize that they play different roles and historically we had horrible midlaners(meme) in Na. Bjergsen got his stats sheerly through having a shit competition in midlane and mid being a more impactful role. The moment Jensen came in the scene he could no longer dominate him like he did the others also shown by his horrendous worlds performances. Also how can Bjergsen be the Goat when he isn't even the Goat of his role.... Jensen is. Dom's argument goes out the window when you bring in Jensen. Its unfortunate that Doublelift and Dom's personal animosity is spilled into this horrendous take from Dom. Players play to win not to have the best stats. No amount of mental gymnastics is gonna erase the fact that Bjergsen hasn't made worlds let alone win a title without DL since 2017.
its hoon
It’s fun seeing thorin as prosecutor and this was a fun watch but one thing that annoyed me that kept going in circles and i get that thorin is in a mindset of playing devils advocate to question things and what not. But every time he brings up the counter point of well you said bjerg had oddone, doublelift had hotshotgg etc etc, wildturtle had better supports, THE FUCKING POINT IS that on the shit teams, the bad teammates, doublelift doesn’t perform as the #1 adc (in most splits) BJERG still wins lane/smashes lane. He’s counter pointing every time you make your counter point. The point is dom gets the leeway of saying bjerg had shit player A. You can’t counter point with dlift had shit player A. BECAUSE THE FUCKING POINT is that bjerg still smashes, he still does good, even if it’s going even, doublelift does it significantly less. He looks bad on a shitty team. Bjerg looks GOOD on a shitty team. How is that so hard to understand?
You do realize that's because midlaner is solo carry role. ADC's naturally depend on your team doing well as well, especially support.
The whole conversation is summed up in the first 7 minutes of the video. You have people that have watched LCS from day 1 and you have people that just started watching in the last 4-5 years. Obviously people that have watched from day 1 know Bjerg is so far ahead of everyone else that it's pathetic.
so far ahead but always loses to DL when it counts hmm
@@mudibaba "loses when it counts" is the dumbest argument ever. Even in the losses, he's still pulling MVPs and straight 1v5ing many games. Hell, the one split they should've even beat tl to ruin their 4 in a row but zven decided to literally int the game away.
You are completely biased towards titles. Dl has never once been miles ahead of the number 2 in the league. Bjerg was for several years.
"With Goldenglue playing my dude"
LOOOL I'm dead
Bjergsen has had way worse teams than Doublelift . The reason why fans wanted him to leave TSM. Their roster building was ass half the time
Impact should be the goat of LCS.
Bjergsen is Nr.1 DL Nr. 2
Jensen already outperform Bjergsen big time, with different teams and against international competition, bjerg was good when NA mids were pure garbage.
its gotta be doublelift anyone else is a cop out
Doms original video on this made me realize that the list actually goes Bjerg > Jensen > Mr. Lift
IWD keeps ignoring that the midlaners back then went away never to be heard from again 'cause they weren't good enough while in the ADC role they had Turtle and Sneaky who had long careers that DL had to play against and CLG being complete garbage as a team. Not just that but more titles means a lot and for a long time whichever team had DL seemed to win a title. I don't care much for DL, never have but those are the facts. Bjergsen is not some solo carry God like some people want to argue and the 4 wards meme was completely idiotic looking at the performances from the rest of the team compared to Bjergsen.
Don't even get me started on including All-Pro and MVP's. What's next, is he going to add player of the game and series to the argument? (Oh God, he actually did) All of this is nonsense. The voting was never respected in any of that, it's irrelevant. Some people get player of the game or player of the series for completely dumb reasons. Sometimes it was fair and it would legit be them performing slightly better than a team mate. So who cares.
What matters is how you performed as a team and DL did that better considering the title differences. Don't even get me started on when Bjergsen came to NA and was gapping everyone mid and DL was stuck in CLG hell. That when Bjergsen started winning titles he had a head start and still DL came out on top when it came to overall LCS titles.
I know Thorin was trying hard to pick apart Dom's argument, but it feels like he missed the point with a lot of what Dom was saying and tried to twist his words to make it sound worse, and because of this, he was more hypocritical at times. You can tell Thorin has a huge hate boner for Bjerg and isn't trying to be objective. Still fun to watch tho.
Dom was also extremely biased towards bjerg and straight up ignoruing all good and focusing on the bad of dl, so it evens out.
If a non league fans watches the video he did of bjerg vs dl, your think dl is a silver 2 player that got carried 8 times without practicing ever and telling his team to feed him 🤣
There are far to many children who post comments on the internet. I swear, every day I get dumber and dumber reading some of these posts. Between the complete lack of context, to completely ignoring points mentioned, it's insufferable.
"We've seen people that aren't even top 3 in their role win championships. Obviously we've seen this recently in Europe" god DAMN Dom throwing hard shade at Odo, Malrang, and Chicken Little 😂
Pretty sure he was referring to Flakked winning spring split. Don’t watch tons of LEC, but I feel like a reasonable argument could be made for those Rogue players being in or around top 3. Flakked is clearly nowhere near top 3 adc
ye im p sure he's talking about flakked, armut winning lec in the last 2 years
All of Rogue's players are generally top 3 in their role. He was referring to Flakked and Armut.
All this debate settles is LCS is trash, has always been trash, and it disappoints me. We need a legit LCS Jesus and unfortunately the game doesn’t allow that at the moment.
Jojo could be if the game was more hands based than draught base
Lol Thorin was a bit low energy on his product placement this time, but it actually almost worked for because of that.
Tsm wukong is the real GOAT no cap
i normally enjoy these podcasts but thorin was really obnoxious in this one
Fuq all the brainddead commenters
How we talking about LCS on a show that was supposed to be on EU?
bjerg is EU original
the video hasnt even started .. how do you know they will start the show saying The Best Damn League show . Wait for the video and then youll understand . cmon man
@@thekindalien Maybe because of the fucking title? Wild.
@@jackphillips6742 DL isn't.
Who the fuck cares? It’s more top quality content
trying to compare the impact on the game of an adc vs a midlaner is super tricky.
The midlaner has way more chances to have a say in the way the game is going to be played, while the adc hides behind his team and require other members of the team to setup the fight in a way that allows for the adc to jump in.
With that beeing said, doublelift is by far a more skilled player, and had less good mates overrall while still performing.
Has bjergsen ever been in a non super team?
He played with oddone which is like playing with 2 less players.
Yeah but Bjergsen was part of the reason why they were Super teams, no?
For a while there TSM was famously known as 'Bjerg and 4 wards'. TSM junglers and supports were notorious underperformers and those are the roles that are meant to synergise with mid.
The role difference argument is very valid in todays game, but not so much in the early days. ADC was op back when DL wasnt winning.
By far? Really? Thanks for letting me know your opinion is worthless.
This episode is so weird man
thooorin "you cant lose a debate if you dont let the other person speak"
did you not hear like 10 fkn times there is a 6 hr video where dom lays out all his points. Of course Thorin in putting out some counter arguements will do most of the talking here
@@TriDevious no i mean when thooorin says like "wouldnt that be an argument againts bjergsen?" he instantly interupts dom when he tries to explain himself. I totally understand that thooorin should lead the conversation, but why even ask a question if youre not gonna listen to the answer
@@tandlose sure. I feel like the whole thing is a little silly cause it's ignoring international/ dbllft's s2 performances. For lcs top10 i get it but for general discussions why do we have to keep riot's arbitrary boundaries
like until NA wins a worlds, who actually give a shit. Also rings matter, what is the point in being "the goat" and you cant win. Making excuses for second place is straight up lame. Y'all say y'all follow MAMBA mental so this should just understood. Mickey GOATS lol
Thats why none of the candidates have zero trophies. Like they mention in the show you have to win some but it's not as simple as 8>6. They both proved they could win multiple times, after that you have to look deeper that that. It's the reason Robert Horry is not considered one of the GOATs in NBA even tho he has 7 rings.
@@derpydex that’s why I said they matter not, that’s all that matters, it’s still a team game. Also I’m a deep laker fan, Rob hit the 3’s when it was needed, but I get your point
@@jamalbarnes4327 I dont think Thorin and Dom meant that they don't matter at all. Just when discussing 2 GOATs who both have more than they can fit on one hand the difference is pretty miniscule.
IWDominate, the most delusional “analyst” in lol esports history
Why
thorin is insufferable
Don't watch then