Dom's defence of Bengi did end up bringing out much better analysis, I appreciate him being willing to go out on a limb for a more entertaining discussion
Bengi won more world titles then any other jungler in the world has won domestic titles....No matter who your midlaner is, that is insane, u dont win world titles with BAD players.
@@ragex2636 I think LWX is bad. literally flips the coin every game. if that team didnt have the exact set of players they had in the other 4 positions, they would not win worlds, but if LWX is replaced by any ADC that got into Quarters that year, they'd still win.
@@kelex1298 yet the facts dont support that, LWX had the highest stats of any ADC during the worlds. So facts say he was the best ADC. And they 100% win worlds even in a 4v5 vs G2, G2 played so bad not even funny. LWX could have afked in base and won that easily.
@@ragex2636 I mean those stats mean very little as the argument thats being stated. LWX was actually a lot better than he currently is. I think hes a little bit better than wolf was for skt but not by a lot. At that time youd 100% not take Kobbe over him. LWX wasnt a world beater at the time and has only gotten worse and we will see who they do decide to import. But back to your point stats to combat his team was the reason he was so far ahead is mind blowing to even try to be an argument point. But with this logic Xiaohu was awful in the past and not looking at what was actually happening in the games would be to much work so we are only taking stats. But now after 5 years he randomly got so much better.
@@itsthekid9815 And im not saying Bengi is the best of all time, but any1 who says hes trash is really a complete moron and a idiot. You dont win 3 world titles if u are trash, NO MATTTER who your team mates are.
It’s because literally all 3 of them understand how actual discourse works, you don’t have to agree on everything to have an actual civil discussion. I come back and rewatch this episode so often just because these 3 together is just amazing.
I'm not particularly fond of how Thorin used "Faker setting up plays by himself and calling all the shots" against the argument for Bengi as jungler... Then follows this up with how "tons of times Faker wasn't that good" to boost his own argument for Rookie as mid.
@@hanbyeol12 Thorin's just a hater in general. He's such a hater that when he started to fall out of favor with people because they realized he only ever has negative things to say, he claimed he has autism and tried to blame it on that 😂
Uh, Deft won MSI with EDG in 2015. I don't think it dismisses the criticism of Deft because you already covered a few minutes prior the weight of what winning MSI means, but Thorin *did* say "he never won MSI or Worlds." I will defend my Alpaca.
Three of the most highly analytical, historically literate and opinionated people that don't get pissy about other people's opinions in the league space. Oh baby the analysis is tasty
@@jackmckeown616 What are you even on about??? Monte literally is one of the goats of analysts/casters. He was literally one of the people who started talking more in depth about korean league and brought that way of playing to the west.
Timestamps: 0:00-33:00 - Best Top ever 33:01-1:34:15 - Best Jng 1:34:16-1:49:22 - Best Mid 1:49:25-2:23:30 - Best Adc and what type of woman would they be :D 2:23:31-2:51:05 - Best support 2:51:10-3:25:02 - Random stuff and questions to Dom
Well there is rly only 2 player atm who can be counted As the Best mid ever atm and thats what they were taling about :D although the honorable mentions are interesting As well
You guys shitting on faker is gross. Your also not taking into account that after a couple years of being the “goat” you now have the world double and triple teaming the man just to take him down. It became beat faker win game meta forever and teams spent all of their resources to do it. So of course trying to 1v5 every game ever your gonna have bad games. Dom your awesome you recognize you other two are trash pandas. Good thing you put mid in the middle because i refuse to watch the rest of this trash now.
As a hardcore LPL fan who actually lives in China, I don’t think they remember 2017 lpl or didn’t watch it. That was the year EDG and RNG really came into their own. Rookie wasn’t even the best in the LPL. Scout and xiaohu played much better overall. That was scouts mvp year and he really showed up big. IG also had Duke fresh off his worlds win with SKT and Baolan in his second year who really popped off that year and finally looked like an insane player just in time for jackeylove to become of age. Rookie was very good, but he’s not far and away the best mid in LPL. There’s probably a stronger argument to be made for scout tbh. 2018 was the year rookie got theshy and jacketlove and Ning and really started showing how much better he was than everyone else. Faker was better than rookie in season 7 no question. Anyone who disagrees probably didn’t watch LPL back then. Uzi was still in his prime and IG wasn’t there yet. Rookie had tons of competition. If you’re going to bring up rookie being on a weaker team than scout and xiaohu then you have to bring up doinb who was really really good back then and had a worse team than rookie.
scout should be a candidate for 3rd greatest mid of all time behind faker and rookie IMO everything thorin said abt meiko playing with iboy and being good for like, 4 years (2017-2021) can be said for scout but even more so. he literally was the hard carry of an edg team as a midlaner with a washed up jungler (clearlove) or a random rookie player and a literal who in toplane+either iboy who was mad inconsistent, jinjao (who) or hope as a fucking giga rookie teenager.
@@ImTheSpaceman Maybe, problem is I don't think he watched enough pro play, especially KR pre-s8. I get the impression he hasn't watched a ton of domestic KR and mainly saw them at international events back then. He is good at making arguments despite this though and I respect him for throwing his hat in the ring considering
@@Nnothingg- I'm sorry but you simply can't have seen everything regarding pro LoL, there are so many games across the 4 major regions that it's basically a full time job. It's quite literally impossible for him to have watched all of LPL and LCK while he was streaming 12 hours a day. I'm not blaming him either I think there are very very few people if any who studied all major regions across the last 7 years.. It's an absurd amount of games/time spent each week
@@M.L.official most of the really interesting one's are related to IG's side of the bracket due to both quarter finals ending in what was considered the less likely result by many at the time. What if G2 don't upset RNG who won everything they could've won that year up to that point? That leads to RNG vs either KT, which according to some experts before the quarters would've been the "actual final", or IG, which would've been a repeat of best of 5s from both spring and summer play offs (semi and final respectively) which both ended 3-2 in favour of RNG. The resulting finals would have been nice from a story line perspective. Both IG and RNG could've been the first LPL team to win worlds (which IG ended up being), RNG could've won everything that year, KT super team could've given 3 all time greats that elusive worlds title (Mata already having one and Ucal hardly qualifying as an all time great) and FNC could've been first EU team to win actual worlds (friendly reminder that S1 was only given the status of worlds retroactively). Out of these I think RNG vs FNC had the most potential to be an interesting series, given that RNG's solo lanes had been a bit underwhelming and FNC might have had an advantage there, although the mid advantage being less certain considering that Caps looked a off against the other LPL mids at the tournament and who knows whether Xiaohu would've stopped randomly under performing once in finals. There are even more what-ifs related to the tie breakers (and even further what-ifs if you want to look at tie breakers that would've happened if one match in a group had ended differently (TL vs EDG tie breaker and C9 vs VIT tie breaker being the most likely of these imo) but let's not get into all that. Interestingly enough, there's not that many imo at least somewhat realistic what-ifs for the other side of the play-off bracket. The most realistic alternate reality for that side is EDG winning vs FNC and then going on to the finals (I don't see either C9 or AF beating FNC or EDG). TL;DR: one bracket had 3 of the 4 best teams (arguably 3 best teams), among them the 2 biggest favourites (KT & RNG), both of which lose their respective quarter final
@@merobo5066 Well put! I couldn’t have compiled it better myself. Much of the fuckery came from the meta shift heading into playoffs. IG clearly had the best two solo lanes, but the solo lane meta wasn’t as prevalent in groups, hence why FNC won their tiebreaker and ruined the other side of the bracket. The G2 series is probably the most epic one I know, but it’s appalling that just one series ruin RNGs chances who was destined for the golden road and that we get no more series between the more dominant teams. The format is egregious. So many good series to be had with teams that never will be again. If KT won worlds, Smeb and Score would easily be the goat in respective position while Deft would challenge Uzi and perhaps even overtake him, because the title weighs more than you think in people’s minds
I cant seem to forget his name like ever. He got roflstomped all the way to Uranus it's insane lmao. He actually the only player I remember from the 2015 Tigers roster
The NA goat mid that deserves to be in the conversation for best of all time is obviously Pobelter. Just look at his longevity. No team could hold onto his power for very long.
KT is the biggest tragedy of a LOL org ever. 2013 they run into SKT T1 K with Faker and a bad circuit point system. 2014 they mismanage the bullets and trade away Duke and more importantly acquire Nagne/Limit to plague their roster for the next year. Additionally they run into a weirdly red hot NJWS to miss worlds with the KT Arrows. 2015 they get the luck of facing KOO in the QF b/c they decided to lose to the flash wolves. 2016 they get the infamous baron steal by GP ultimate after finally defeating their demon in SKT and lose to the ROX tigers in the final and then get denied worlds by SSG. 2017 the reverse sweep to their rival SKT happens and they get swept by SSG again in the regional finals to miss worlds. Season 8, praise the lord KT is at worlds as the #1 KR team and finally their time has come, only to be met by iG peaking to their highest level in the QF. Really kinda sad the amount of talent on that 2018 roster and deserving players that didn't get that championship.
@@M.L.official At the time yea iG probably had greater talent (TheShy/Rookie and Jackielove) but the name recognition on that KT team was insane as was kinda discussed in this episode.
So many over the years, let me remind you, 2013 KT Bullets denied b/c of points system/SKT. 2014 KT Arrows denied b/c of NJWS. 2016 the GP baron steal against ROX. 2017 the SKT reverse sweep. 2018 facing iG in the QF at worlds.
I was a CJ Entus fan until their relegation, when i decided to become a KT fan because of Score. After KT continously let me down just like CJ did i just kinda quit watching pro LoL religously.
I don't understand how anyone can put Rookie above Faker in 2017. Even if Rookie played more games, 2017 Worlds Faker is the highest peak anyone ever achieved, and will probably never be topped as a peak. He carried through mid in a meta that forced everyone to play through bot while his botlane is underperforming. Not to mention facing the greatest botlane carry of all time on his road to the finals. Replace Faker with Rookie on that team and they'll probably get swept by RNG. Heck they'll probably even lose to Misfits.
Faker season 7 was arguably his best year. He “should’ve” won mvp in spring, had a solid but not mindblowing msi, hard carried skt in summer 2017 especially in the playoffs, and Uber carried at worlds.
the crazy thing is like they said, everytime he is supposed to get shit on, he either is completely fine or he even turns it and shits on the person who is supposed to crush him
One thing people don't bring up in the Faker discussion is how much the game changed around him. Riot has made many changes over the years to remove a player's ability to hard carry 1v9 with a lot of the changes targeting Faker. His unbeatable champions were pretty much nerfed out of pro viability while mid had strength moved to other areas of team play. No other player has had such individual dominance
To be fair, today is a different era, korea doesn’t have their Starcraft 2 infrastructure and are so weak, LPL are aggressive and lose to NA as well. Lucky to have Fnatic change their playstyle and thus int to win 2018. You can see this luck clearly by IG losing to Team Liquid MSI.
I clearly remember that faker was one of the first people in pro play to mechanically string abilities together seamlessly. Such as when ambitions kha evolved in front of faker and he solo killed him. There was probably no one in pro play at that time who thought of punishing that mistake in such a short time frame as people do now.
I love seeing good intelligent arguments. They can attack points, defend and bring people around to at least understand the points being made and still not agree. It doesn't need to be a fight where someone has to "win" but one where a conversation can breath and give new insight and understanding.
Poor chovy.. only gets to play with garbage players like on GRF.. and DRX.. oh wait he had Tarzan.. Viper.. Lehends.. Kiera.. deft.. pyosik.. dorran.. just absolute trash who wouldn't get in even an LCS team... NOT
Dom, you have gained my everlasting respect for actually citing Impact for toplane. This guy is one of the guy that is getting the least amount of respect for his credentials in recent years imo, the guy has even more longevity than soaZ, which is saying a lot while maintainng a much higher level of play overall. Love me some top die
I just wanna say, one of the key reasons why Monte is such a good broadcaster imo, is because he knows how to speak loudly without the need to shout. That's all. Great conversation.
I think Dandy was so good and Kakao was a genius, but both sides of bengi’s argument was interesting, now you convinced me to think Canyon is not the best jungler in the world (yet).
Everybody: Nah, Rookie is not the GOAT, FAKER IS THE GOAT!!!. No, Score is not the best jungler! Me: Dom just proved his mettle for the fight with the heavyweight champions of historical content creation. Incredibly thought provoking conversation. Thumbs up.
@@bonesh0ckerz oh he did show up at msi and beat faker in 17 minutes. And rookie plays in a way better region. Korea has had one good team in the last 2 years, which is damwon.
@@joaobrito2653 You mean 1 all-time great team? Because Korea has had plenty of good teams over the past 2 years. 2019 SKT, 2020 DRX, 2019 Griffin just to name a few. Edit: Ps so we are going to pretend as if SKT didn't return the favor to IG in their 2nd meeting at that year's MSI? Oh yeah, you also obviously have not seen 2013/2017 Faker if you think 2018 TheShy is the greatest pfp LoL pro of all time
@@madarauchiha4329 I said damwon is the only good team Korea has had the past 3 years. The only other one you can argue is skt 2019. Gen g got beat 3-0 at worlds and got always choked in 2020, drx were chokers and griffin choked too. Griffin every time they had a bo5 they would just giga overthink the draft and always went away from what made them good. Seriously, their series against IG in 2019 they made chovy play tanks vs rookie instead of skill matchups and made dog shit sword play skill matchups against the shy, so yeah it was quite impressive they even managed to win 1 game that series. And 2019 skt was good but not great. They were very predictable, which is why they got beat by g2 pretty consistently. G2 beat them twice in the group stage of msi, then beat them in semi finals of msi and worlds. That was generally the fault of Korean teams, just too predictable. Damwon was predictable but they were so good that you knew what they were gonna do and there was still nothing you could do about it. And this year damwon went 6-0 in spring playoffs and Didn’t look too hot at msi, so if they can shit stomp the lck that hard and not even look great internationally that shows how not good the other lck teams are.
This is truly a masterpiece, the league of legends knowledge between these 3 is absolutely insane and it’s on full display here! Well done again, please more content with these 3 together!
I was kind of sad that Clearlove wasnt mentioned, his domestic success was at very least comparable to Score and he arguably has an edge over Score internationally (MSI win against Faker)
@@TheRebornJuker What kind of logic is this? Groups placing is already dog shit as it is. 2016 and 2018 is literally the embodiment of how bad it is. A resounding majority considered SKT vs Rox and IG vs KT to be the greatest series of games in worlds AND BOTH OF THEM WASNT PLAYED IN THE FINALS. Who's to say that either Rox or KT could have beaten their opponents the second time they face each other. These teams are so similar in skill level but unfortunately one team had to lose. Loser's bracket could create upsets yes but team who's better should always win regardless who's their opponent. Just look at Dota 2's OG in Ti 8. They were able to beat the tournament favorites TWICE. When people still doubted their ability and labelled it as luck, they just to Ti 9 and won making them the first two time international champions in the game's history. tl;dr - Loser's bracket is hella good, your logic is nonsense, this is proven by League's 2016 and 2018 worlds and OG's miracle run in Dota 2's Ti 8 and then cementing themselves in Ti 9.
probably one of the easiest videos of all time to come back to and enjoy regardless of how many times ive seen this before. i hope for more historical pieces like this with dom specifically, you 3 interact amazingly its hard to think that dom wasnt even the first choice for this conversation
Quite surprised Caps doesn't at least get a mention in this one. Just look at his performances vs top mid laners and the placement he's had since 2018 in EU and Internationally. He's won every split until Spring 2021, won MSI, been a finalist at worlds two years in a row and was knocked out of Worlds 2020 3-4th after losing to the winners of the tournament.
CLG.EU won a group with Najin Sword in season 2 as well. I do think the Flash Wolves in season 5 is the most impressive of them because it came during the absolute peak of Korean dominance, which was season 4-7.
Season 7 Faker was better, Rookie had a better team behind him and still couldnt get to the finals. Fakers team was so hard inting him every game, and he litterly carried 4 dead players to the finals.
@@M.L.official factually true 100%. Huni was trash, peanut was horrible, and bang wolf was playing the worst they have every played in there history. In season 7, rookie had TheShy who was playing OUT of his mind, and jackielove, who was probably the best ADC that year. But ya untrue...
@@ragex2636 TheShy wasn't that good in 2017 he was strong mechanicly but his synergy with the rest wasn't on point. And in term of ADC Uzi was playing on LPL. Mystic also was better than JKL. The team has high potential but there weren't the best team at all in 2017. LPL was already more competitive than LCK this year.
@@zombie92110 I didnt say they was the best team, but they was WAYYYYY better then SKT was. But Faker still was better then rookie with a worse team. Theshy would have 10-0 huni, JKL would have shit alllllll over bank and wolf.
@@ragex2636 Man you really have no clue what you were watching. For the record, LS thinks Rookie was the best mid laner in the world in 2017, not Faker. Rookie's team was good but you forget how good SKT was in spring and msi and most of summer. Just because they got worse at worlds doesnt mean the team was trash all year. Stop lying and rewriting history.
Monte has such a huge ego. The dude coached a shit NA team 7 years ago, owned a shit NA team 6 years ago, left league for a couple years, and then comes back and expects his thoughts on the game to carry as much weight as someone like Dom. So cringe.
Can we have a version of this conversation for Western only? I would be fascinated to hear the takes for that too. 1 Full season played in West, even if they are imports.
I don't know why, but i really do enjoy those episodes that talk about something else than the MSI tournament. Let's be real, except for the C9 game and the DFM one this tournament was mega boring.
Wolf was awesome and the reason for the SKT comeback vs EDG at Worlds 2017. To think people though Faker and his shockwave was the reason just forgot that Wolf made it happen.
Logevity of marin not so good, but to say he wasnt even that good in season 5 is a big big big understatement. He dominated toplane in all of skt games at worlds that year and they went 15-1 that year which is still best worlds run to date. Dunno why they bring up him on maokai when he played darius, renek and fiora. He won both matchups on darius and renek btw , beating renek as darius and beating darius as renek. But yes he is deffo not on list for GOAT toplaner.
The absolute disrespect that they didn’t even mention caps is ridiculous. That man is a : 2x Rivals champion 6x LEC Champion 1x MSI champion 1x MSI MVP 3x LEC MVP 2x Worlds Finalist (back to back) Like you can’t be serious to not even mention him and not think he’s in contention as being one of the greatest West midlaners is laughable.
Smeb section reminded me of SSW vs SKT 2014 thrash talk, SSW used Smeb as an insult: "I think his confidence is probably in the gutter right now after he got solo-killed in lane by Smeb"
Can we just not ignore the fact, that the Smeb - Score - Mata (and Deft as the ADC) KT Team even failed to get to Worlds in their first year together? What's Scores excuse for that?
Reginald has to be in the conversation. Put some respect on his name. He had the potential to be as good as Rookie but he retired early because Lcs was too easy for him. Biggest what if in LoL history.
No just No. Regi was nowhere near the level of someone like Rookie... even in his Prime he wasn't close. If you had said Bjergsen - fine there is an argument there but Regi.... seriously? Rookie would demolish him.
"Rookie better than Faker in season 6,7 ,8 and parts of 9 " - Thoorin. Hmm, 2016 , Faker had a field day throughout the entire year. Smash spring, MSI, Summer, Worlds. Meanwhile Rookie, had... arguably nothing. China was inferior to KR in all possible ways at that point of time and internationally, Rookie didn't even touch Faker whatsoever. 2017, Rookie didn't do jack shit, while Faker had spring+MSI (AGAIN) while dropping the ball in summer and World's finals when the Malzahar OTP Crown finally decided to lose his spine permanently. (No Rookie to be found) 2018, TheShy 1v9 -ed each world's game while KR was dog shit (noble efforts of KT to do something). Rookie being hard carried by his Top laner who peaked like a motherfucker. Rookie was still very good, but TheShy stole the show entirely. 2019, Faker had spring and MSI (AGAIN ) while Rookie wasn't looking like the best at all. I really do not see where Thoorin is coming from on that one. When 1 of the regions is better overall and smashes the other one at World's/MSI, how do you even bring it up ? Rookie's track record versus Faker internationally is non-existent since Rookie , cannot last long enough or qualify for there. Faker also had 3 awful years in the face of Season 4(arguable), 8 and 10, but not nearly of how many years Rookie has, wasn't even close. If you are gonna judge Faker unable to carry 4 dead bodies to the finish line (for like 213232132132132131231 time in his long career), why don't you put the same ball in Rookie's hands ? Cause he cannot even carry with 2 bad players on his team, let alone 3 or 4.
The thoughts Thorin brings up regarding the downsides for Uzi are literally the same things he said about Faker regarding everybody had to play around him and listen to him and jungle does what he says? You can't use points to defend a player then use the same point to shit talk another player, even if playing devils advocate.
I can recall seasons/games where faker was 2nd or 3rd in team gold but had the highest damage. Faker was/is just something else. He (Faker) was/is also extremely clever, unlike Uzi.
Again. Goat is never just about skill. It should combination of skill, achievement, and influence. In terms of skill, it should be a comparison with the player at their era, instead of directly comparing season 1 player and season 10 player. That is why even tho wolf has better skill and achieve more, is not greater than Madlife.(it is just one example)
Wtf hahah the argument is great but comparing faker legacy to new mid laners today is just too early. Hahahaha like Basketball He is the Jordan he has a bunch of flaws but until someone can do what he did to Skt/T1 he is the GOAT. perks, showmaker, rookie, chovy, clozer, caps, knight, bdd, until i see then having 3 Worlds champion 2x Msi champion. 9x Own Regional (LCK) champion (3x mvp) i will now put them ahead faker. Just my opinion.
Then you did not really listen, they are not judging entirely by trophy case or Smeb will never be considered better than Looper. They are arguing based off of mainly individual performances. That is why Rookie is close in their eyes.
Who can forget Faker shit on Nagne’s Cassiopeia with Riven in the 2015 final. Fly was a decent mid lanes but man 2 hp denying Score that chip was so bittersweet. If Rox or Koo won World’s the run would have been just as beautiful as DRX’s miracle run. Zeka solo’ing Scout 4 consecutive times will be a highlight that will live on from years to come.
In terms of the highest highs I would have included KaKao. That 2014 summer split final was the ultimate 2 man carry job between Rookie and Kakao. Never before have I seen such unique hard carry performances from the jungle. Obviously he has not many other notable accolades, but for high highs he was definitely up there, I would even argue even higher than Dandy, but even shorter of a time period.
Not enough pedigree. He's exceptionally good in LCK. But the one time they went to worlds, they got smack in quarter iirc after smurfing groups. I reckon they would argue that Chovy should have done more in that series
Faker performed when it matters most. how tf some random game in LPL can compare to World SEMI-FINAL. it's for a reason that SKT reached where they were at the time and everyone knew that Faker was the man to beat, not fckin Rookie
My favorite part is if you put Smeb, Score, Faker, Uzi and Mata all on the same team, you're recreating a bunch of hard, defined styles that have already clashed and blown up in the past. Yet, I don't know if I can disagree with the lineup lol
if you replace uzi with the comsensus 2 or 3 adc you have deft its so wild that a team with 4/5 goated players didnt win i still remember always thinking how they managed not to win with that kt lineup tbh that kt team is still on paper the most stacked in history
36:40, This stuck out to me as strange because I know SSG Haru as a young player so I thought there was no way he was playing in OGN in 2012; he was 14 at the time. Dom was referring to H0R0, who later jungled briefly for UOL in the EU LCS, jungler of Xenics Storm in 2012.
I really liked this video. You get who they think the best player in the role is, who had the most influence in the past and who made the role what it is today and who could potentially challenge for the goat title.
Meiko, Ming, Crisp but not picking Wolf.. Fxxkin western just hates T1 players except Faker. No matter what are you talking about, All of koreans comsider Bang as GOAT adc and dosen't admit these shittest stuff like Meiko, Crisp > Wolf Don't distort the truth and history. Western's 'GOAT controversy' isn't worth having public confidence.
I think it goes a lot when IWDominate, a pro player reaching gameplay peaks and understanding of jungle that Monte and Thorin combined cannot get, defending Bengi and saying he is underrated. Bengi was underrated, any solid jungle main who watched him from s3-s5 knew he was the pathing god and the faker enabler. There has never been a better player to enable Faker, that alone is enough to say he was underrated. IWDominate is correct here, which is not surprising, consider he is the only one here who is actually really good at the game.
Can't agree more with Dom here! Bengi's selflessness is extremely valuable and should be counted as his strength. And I'd bet that the reason he didn't play some of those mechanical aggro picks is not that he individually couldn't but because the team (SKT) wasn't comfortable with that playstyle or just simply the team (or coaching staff) thought that helping Faker carry would be much better. When it was needed in the most clutch moments Bengi ALWAYS showed he was one of the best and confidently performed. That's what the game is about! It's not about who can go in practice tool a show better mechanics :D it's about the whole package and performing in the most important moments.
Rookie has made some insanely poor career choices (Leaving KT for IG after winning Champions Summer 2014, taking too long to leave IG, joining V5, etc). His form also dipped hard in 2021 - Faker in that same year was 1 game off of Worlds Finals. Had he stayed at KT, I genuinely think we would have gotten LoL's version of FlaSh vs Jaedong
As to Thorin's question regarding LPL mids in 2017, as someone who watched it closely I'd say Rookie was the best mid. Xiaohu was slightly better in summer and perhaps DoinB was a bit better in spring, but neither of those players maintained their level in both splits whereas Rookie absolutely did. As to overall ranking I'd still have Faker over Rookie that year though.
I agreed with everything, only thing I would add is giving CoreJJ a little shoutout in the support section, I think he's done a lot in his career, is very consistent, and I think makes awesome shot-calls and adapting to any adc's play style he supports.
@@tehawsumninja its already happning slowly but surely his mechanis will be worse and worse for every season he plays in NA. Also by playing in NA his IQ will drop rapidly
@@TheRebornJuker yes but i meant: the three of them included Perkz on this list, so then that shouldnt exclude corejj is my point. We obviously are negating NA-itis and just focusing on their abilities in a bubble
Deft definitely a huge choker. I was super impressed by him back in the day but after 2014/15 I never paid attention to him anymore because I just expected him to not show up when it mattered and he never proved me wrong. He's a guy where the name looks good on the roster you look like a legit team when you have him but you're not.
feels like he lost his killer instinct after coming back from LPL. he looked so good in LPL, where he actually made regular outplays to carry games, the sivir highlight play particularly stands out to me despite being years ago
@@ade1174 He never looked the same since 2015? His two beast years individually were actually 2016 and 2019 (2015 would be third), so there's no way he never looked the same. He was a top 3 adc in the world from 2014-spring 2020 (was #1 in 2016 and arguably 2015 and 2019).
Great episode and great topic. Few points I'd like to make. 1. Thanks for mentioning Meiko for Support. He's been my sleeper pick for best Support for years but being the EDG star player and unable to move has limited his potential. He's an amazing support, has incredible longevity and you can't pin him down as just a tank support engage master because he was also amazing at the ranged supports way back when they were allowed to be good, 2. Not mentioning Caps for mid as a legit pick is a crime. He was back to back World's Final loser which matches Uzi's achievement from a definitively weaker region. Good on giving Perkz his dues but despite Caps' faults he was pivotal in what made those runs and the MSI win possible. Compare Caps' career to Uzi; they're tied in International success already, basically. 3. I don't disagree with Smeb and Score picks but ultimately those choices will never feel as definitive as Faker Mid, Uzi ADC or Mata Support. Top and Jungle haven't had that guy who not only dominates and redefines the role but then also has legitimate longevity and results/eye test of truly GOAT level players like the other three roles do. Jungle has Karsa and Jankos for longevity and GOATesque results but there are elements that hold them back from getting the respect they potentially deserve. Nuguri seems like he'll cement himself as the Top GOAT but we need to see a couple more years of him; The Shy unfortunately seems to be squandering his potential.
This really made me think about what could have been, had the Griffin Core (Chovy, Tarzan, Viper) stayed together. They imo should have been Damwon or atleast made it a 2 horse race. Especially if you consider how much Tarzan and Chovy´s Playstyle compliment each other.
Griffin may be the greatest tragedy in League esports- such a good team with no titles to their name. Imo at their peaks more impressive than Damwon was last summer.
GRF were overrated. They were touted as the most dominant team in LCK... but never actually won anything. They completely collapsed when the Pressure was on. 2018 - 13-5 - In Koreas weakest year; KZX getting stomped by RNG at MSI, GenG going 1-5, Afreeca getting stomped by C9 and KT losing in Qtrs to IG... Griffin lost to KT and then lost to Gen G despite being Heavy favourites in both series. 2019 - 15-3 - got stomped by SKT in spring finals 3-0. 2019 - 13-5 (Same as DWG w/ Nuclear) - got stomped by SKT in summer finals 3-1. They aren't even comparable to DWG in Summer 2020... who were the clear cut best team in LCK and in the world without Question. The only team close to them in LCK was DRX and they stomped them in finals. Griffin in 2019 were not more impressive than DWG in summer 2020. Like what?
@@jamescalder5115 You have to go back and watch Griffin's games to understand how crazy their ascent was. In their rookie split they dominated the regular season (Viper could play ADCs and any other champ bot lane, Chovy was a menace, Tarzan was one of the best jungles in the world) and took KT to 5 games. It was close- the superteam of Korea at their peak almost lost to a bunch of upstart rookies. Admittedly they fell apart in the gauntlet and became another victim of the samsung gauntlet run. Griffin would go long stretches of time looking unstoppable- their issue became that once they suffered a big loss it had a significant mental affect on them and they would play worse for a while after. I would not be surprised if that was in part due to the old-korean starcraftesque atmosphere of their teamhouse.
@@bik7590 I understand their ascent... they were just overrated, people like to pretend that they were stronger back in the day than DWG in summer 2020 when just off eye test they were hugely flawed - DWG were the best team in the world in Summer and it wasn’t close - The meta perfectly suited them, they had the best players in every role and the aggressive but controlled style they played perfectly mixed with the Meta. They had an insane ascent in 2018 but they were hugely flawed as a team and I think people overvalue how good they were as a team, specifically to take away from DWG because; 1.) Chovy was on Griffin. 2.) Because they don’t like DWG. They are labelled as equivalent to DWG in summer 2020 when they were mentally weak, struggled to play from behind, had often bad reads on the Meta (Like Lucian Funnel), ignored strong picks for other teams like Rulers Vayne or tried to overforce plays even if things weren’t working for them... they would also randomly go off the boil and sometimes would look like they were playing on separate pages. Same as Individually they were great but if one part of the team fell behind... the wheels would fall off because they couldn’t cover each other’s weaknesses so they would just bleed out... Griffin against DWG now would potentially be more competitive but not worlds DWG.
Doesn’t Marin also have the highest number of solo kills for a top laner in LCK history and also get worlds MVP? I’m not trying to say that he’s the best. But I don’t think it’s the most egregious contender for best top laner. (especially when it comes to output in a single season)
I think doing what if experiments is nice but the "what if they spoke Korean" goes a bit too far because it changes too much of what potential could have happened. just some of the things you have to consider is how they would develop as a player if they got to move and play in the best league in the world surrounded by the best players, depending on who they end up with how that would complete or just straight up alter their style and gameplay. it just assumes alot about the crop players they would get to play with and how they would work with them.
To reinforce monte's point early about how not all greats win trophies, i thimk a good example would be Carey Price of the Montreal Canadiens, in the NHL. Ever since he joined the league, he has been touted by the media, his teammates and opponents alike as one of the best goaltenders of his generation, if not THE best. Almost every year he is in the top 3 candidates to win the Vezina trophy, awarded to the most impressive goaltender of the regular season, and he has won it on 2 occasions if im not mistaken Yet, the Montreal Canadiens havent made the Stanley cup finals once since the 1990s. Of the entirety of Price's career, they only made semi finals once... while he was sidelined by an injury at the time, and they got swept 4-0 by the philadelphia flyers. Everyone in the hockey scene agrees he should be one of the most decorated players of the last 20 years, and hes got nothing to show for it
Imo G2's choke this split was comparable to Kt. They have arguably the most skilled western players of all time in every position (if we don't account for Perkz lane swap) and were able to convincingly lose 2 times.
I think trying to use the Scottie Pippen angle as an argument against Bengi is a bad move, people forget Scottie was the best SF in the league during that time even independent of Jordan. During the one full year MJ as retired for he still carried that team to the 3rd and only 2 games behind first.
hype episode, several years of competitive League culminates to this episode, each role adds to the fun too - Flame, one of the biggest what-ifs for League players, pretty sad for big fans / top-lane players - For me, I thought whoever won between KT and IG, would win 2018 Worlds. I thought KT should have won. It would have been an awesome finals with KT there if not with IG there also. - Geeze, straight up sounded like DanDy and other players traded their health (smog, mental, etc.) for money in China - s/o to the knight/ShowMaker pick from Monte, also Chovy is a beast at laning though which is insane but that's it for contention - Ruler has extremely "gorgeous" gameplay for standards of each year and truly is an ideal ADC. Probably the best term to explain the lack of attention he gets in comparison (aside not winning as much) would be reserved for 'aficionados for high-level League'. - Deft is my boy, but man, that teleport Jayce in the middle of a team fight from 2015 quarters was rough and represents his shortcomings in a nutshell lol - Dom did a really great explanation about MadLife. The fact that some moments in League can be calculated into simple states [programming logic] (more broadly for sports, trapping someone into something because it's ideal or an immediate thought) is pretty crazy for how much liberty there is for positions on the map (in the sense of a game). Great video, many good years for League 3:01:19 lmfao 3:13:11 yes, but like everyone else, "Please don't."
Bengi is the best "mid-support" of all time. so it can count as a jungler. I also think playing utility ADC is also an important role of a team. So i will defiantly put Pray on the list. So i think Impact, Bengi and Pray can be seen as the best role player of their position of all time. I am also surprise not seeing Clearlove on the list. not a flashy player but is able to survive jungle changes for 7 years and still be dominating.
Dom's defence of Bengi did end up bringing out much better analysis, I appreciate him being willing to go out on a limb for a more entertaining discussion
Bengi won more world titles then any other jungler in the world has won domestic titles....No matter who your midlaner is, that is insane, u dont win world titles with BAD players.
@@ragex2636 I think LWX is bad. literally flips the coin every game. if that team didnt have the exact set of players they had in the other 4 positions, they would not win worlds, but if LWX is replaced by any ADC that got into Quarters that year, they'd still win.
@@kelex1298 yet the facts dont support that, LWX had the highest stats of any ADC during the worlds. So facts say he was the best ADC. And they 100% win worlds even in a 4v5 vs G2, G2 played so bad not even funny. LWX could have afked in base and won that easily.
@@ragex2636 I mean those stats mean very little as the argument thats being stated. LWX was actually a lot better than he currently is. I think hes a little bit better than wolf was for skt but not by a lot. At that time youd 100% not take Kobbe over him. LWX wasnt a world beater at the time and has only gotten worse and we will see who they do decide to import. But back to your point stats to combat his team was the reason he was so far ahead is mind blowing to even try to be an argument point. But with this logic Xiaohu was awful in the past and not looking at what was actually happening in the games would be to much work so we are only taking stats. But now after 5 years he randomly got so much better.
@@itsthekid9815 And im not saying Bengi is the best of all time, but any1 who says hes trash is really a complete moron and a idiot. You dont win 3 world titles if u are trash, NO MATTTER who your team mates are.
Being able to argue with each other while focusing entirely on the points, no tone policing or bullshit dodges, is what makes this trio so goated.
It’s because literally all 3 of them understand how actual discourse works, you don’t have to agree on everything to have an actual civil discussion. I come back and rewatch this episode so often just because these 3 together is just amazing.
@@PvtShiznit yes, still holdup in their new videos
@@ftu2021for sure 😂
Get you someone who defends you like how Dom defends Bengi
I'm not particularly fond of how Thorin used "Faker setting up plays by himself and calling all the shots" against the argument for Bengi as jungler... Then follows this up with how "tons of times Faker wasn't that good" to boost his own argument for Rookie as mid.
@@animorte9790 he's the hater version of a t1 fan
dom is rational and gives credit where it is due even though he calls himself a t1 hater
@@hanbyeol12 Thorin's just a hater in general. He's such a hater that when he started to fall out of favor with people because they realized he only ever has negative things to say, he claimed he has autism and tried to blame it on that 😂
This episode was amazing. Their goat picks were (SPOILERS):
Huni
Dardoch
Bjergsen
Doublelift
Mithy
Don't forget Rekkles
God Tier picks as always
no ryoma? no sneaky? garbage analysis, won't watch.
I saw your comment on reddit lol
Sad no Impact
Uh, Deft won MSI with EDG in 2015.
I don't think it dismisses the criticism of Deft because you already covered a few minutes prior the weight of what winning MSI means, but Thorin *did* say "he never won MSI or Worlds."
I will defend my Alpaca.
Three of the most highly analytical, historically literate and opinionated people that don't get pissy about other people's opinions in the league space. Oh baby the analysis is tasty
Take monte out and I agree
If only we could get LS in here with along with phreak 🤣🤣🤣
Monte is the worst analyst/caster in leagues history what
@@jackmckeown616 he was LS before LS, what do you mean?
@@jackmckeown616 What are you even on about??? Monte literally is one of the goats of analysts/casters. He was literally one of the people who started talking more in depth about korean league and brought that way of playing to the west.
Timestamps:
0:00-33:00 - Best Top ever
33:01-1:34:15 - Best Jng
1:34:16-1:49:22 - Best Mid
1:49:25-2:23:30 - Best Adc and what type of woman would they be :D
2:23:31-2:51:05 - Best support
2:51:10-3:25:02 - Random stuff and questions to Dom
Right as I check the video. Thank you.
Thank you!
Best Mid being the shortest discussion makes a lot of sense.
@@MauriceGucci Mid is easy because Faker exists
Well there is rly only 2 player atm who can be counted As the Best mid ever atm and thats what they were taling about :D although the honorable mentions are interesting As well
@@Zefmor not even two, 2 of them added rookie for the sake of adding, mid lane isnt even a conversation its over
You guys shitting on faker is gross. Your also not taking into account that after a couple years of being the “goat” you now have the world double and triple teaming the man just to take him down. It became beat faker win game meta forever and teams spent all of their resources to do it. So of course trying to 1v5 every game ever your gonna have bad games. Dom your awesome you recognize you other two are trash pandas. Good thing you put mid in the middle because i refuse to watch the rest of this trash now.
As a hardcore LPL fan who actually lives in China, I don’t think they remember 2017 lpl or didn’t watch it. That was the year EDG and RNG really came into their own. Rookie wasn’t even the best in the LPL. Scout and xiaohu played much better overall. That was scouts mvp year and he really showed up big. IG also had Duke fresh off his worlds win with SKT and Baolan in his second year who really popped off that year and finally looked like an insane player just in time for jackeylove to become of age. Rookie was very good, but he’s not far and away the best mid in LPL. There’s probably a stronger argument to be made for scout tbh. 2018 was the year rookie got theshy and jacketlove and Ning and really started showing how much better he was than everyone else. Faker was better than rookie in season 7 no question. Anyone who disagrees probably didn’t watch LPL back then. Uzi was still in his prime and IG wasn’t there yet. Rookie had tons of competition. If you’re going to bring up rookie being on a weaker team than scout and xiaohu then you have to bring up doinb who was really really good back then and had a worse team than rookie.
dont mind thorin
scout should be a candidate for 3rd greatest mid of all time behind faker and rookie IMO
everything thorin said abt meiko playing with iboy and being good for like, 4 years (2017-2021) can be said for scout but even more so. he literally was the hard carry of an edg team as a midlaner with a washed up jungler (clearlove) or a random rookie player and a literal who in toplane+either iboy who was mad inconsistent, jinjao (who) or hope as a fucking giga rookie teenager.
Great video, great arguments, Dom did not hold back.
@@ImTheSpaceman Maybe, problem is I don't think he watched enough pro play, especially KR pre-s8. I get the impression he hasn't watched a ton of domestic KR and mainly saw them at international events back then. He is good at making arguments despite this though and I respect him for throwing his hat in the ring considering
@@jubjub6330 nah bro dom himself said that he watched everything since he was a pro, it was literally his life basically still is
@@Nnothingg- I'm sorry but you simply can't have seen everything regarding pro LoL, there are so many games across the 4 major regions that it's basically a full time job. It's quite literally impossible for him to have watched all of LPL and LCK while he was streaming 12 hours a day. I'm not blaming him either I think there are very very few people if any who studied all major regions across the last 7 years.. It's an absurd amount of games/time spent each week
@@jubjub6330 yes because i for sure meant it quite literally, bro just stop being such an idiot and stop trying so hard to sound smart but say nothing
@@Nnothingg- What did you mean by he watched everything then? I don't believe that he watched even all LPL and LCK playoffs those years
Once again, the number of "what if"s in Worlds 2018 is insane.
what are they
Cat Face bless
@@M.L.official most of the really interesting one's are related to IG's side of the bracket due to both quarter finals ending in what was considered the less likely result by many at the time. What if G2 don't upset RNG who won everything they could've won that year up to that point? That leads to RNG vs either KT, which according to some experts before the quarters would've been the "actual final", or IG, which would've been a repeat of best of 5s from both spring and summer play offs (semi and final respectively) which both ended 3-2 in favour of RNG.
The resulting finals would have been nice from a story line perspective. Both IG and RNG could've been the first LPL team to win worlds (which IG ended up being), RNG could've won everything that year, KT super team could've given 3 all time greats that elusive worlds title (Mata already having one and Ucal hardly qualifying as an all time great) and FNC could've been first EU team to win actual worlds (friendly reminder that S1 was only given the status of worlds retroactively).
Out of these I think RNG vs FNC had the most potential to be an interesting series, given that RNG's solo lanes had been a bit underwhelming and FNC might have had an advantage there, although the mid advantage being less certain considering that Caps looked a off against the other LPL mids at the tournament and who knows whether Xiaohu would've stopped randomly under performing once in finals.
There are even more what-ifs related to the tie breakers (and even further what-ifs if you want to look at tie breakers that would've happened if one match in a group had ended differently (TL vs EDG tie breaker and C9 vs VIT tie breaker being the most likely of these imo) but let's not get into all that.
Interestingly enough, there's not that many imo at least somewhat realistic what-ifs for the other side of the play-off bracket. The most realistic alternate reality for that side is EDG winning vs FNC and then going on to the finals (I don't see either C9 or AF beating FNC or EDG).
TL;DR: one bracket had 3 of the 4 best teams (arguably 3 best teams), among them the 2 biggest favourites (KT & RNG), both of which lose their respective quarter final
what if the shy finishes faster than kt in game 3? would we still talk about the series that much?
@@merobo5066 Well put! I couldn’t have compiled it better myself. Much of the fuckery came from the meta shift heading into playoffs. IG clearly had the best two solo lanes, but the solo lane meta wasn’t as prevalent in groups, hence why FNC won their tiebreaker and ruined the other side of the bracket. The G2 series is probably the most epic one I know, but it’s appalling that just one series ruin RNGs chances who was destined for the golden road and that we get no more series between the more dominant teams. The format is egregious. So many good series to be had with teams that never will be again.
If KT won worlds, Smeb and Score would easily be the goat in respective position while Deft would challenge Uzi and perhaps even overtake him, because the title weighs more than you think in people’s minds
I'm watching this high and I just had to pause the video for 5 minutes trying to remember the name Hojin, the nobody jungler for the 2015 GE Tigers.
I cant seem to forget his name like ever. He got roflstomped all the way to Uranus it's insane lmao. He actually the only player I remember from the 2015 Tigers roster
@@amadeux5471 I dont watch shit tier esports so dont know him and wont remember
Im predicting mid to either be Tommy "Ryoma" Le, the Gold Star King, or Max "Soligo" Soong, the Solo God aka Soligod. This is a tough one for sure
Get out of here man. It's obviously eika. There's a reason he gohomea in the lcs. Man was ruthless
Fenix might be better than both of them
@@jaesingh9408 you guys are all forgetting the one and only Reginald, the Blue card visionary
We all know it is Goldenglue
The NA goat mid that deserves to be in the conversation for best of all time is obviously Pobelter. Just look at his longevity. No team could hold onto his power for very long.
holy fuck when the audio pops back into both ears its like when you finally get that water out and can hear normally
KT is the biggest tragedy of a LOL org ever. 2013 they run into SKT T1 K with Faker and a bad circuit point system. 2014 they mismanage the bullets and trade away Duke and more importantly acquire Nagne/Limit to plague their roster for the next year. Additionally they run into a weirdly red hot NJWS to miss worlds with the KT Arrows. 2015 they get the luck of facing KOO in the QF b/c they decided to lose to the flash wolves. 2016 they get the infamous baron steal by GP ultimate after finally defeating their demon in SKT and lose to the ROX tigers in the final and then get denied worlds by SSG. 2017 the reverse sweep to their rival SKT happens and they get swept by SSG again in the regional finals to miss worlds. Season 8, praise the lord KT is at worlds as the #1 KR team and finally their time has come, only to be met by iG peaking to their highest level in the QF. Really kinda sad the amount of talent on that 2018 roster and deserving players that didn't get that championship.
IG were about as talented if not more though.
@@M.L.official At the time yea iG probably had greater talent (TheShy/Rookie and Jackielove) but the name recognition on that KT team was insane as was kinda discussed in this episode.
They are the Tottenham Hotspur’s of league of legends
yo s/o to Gorilla for all the solo queue games he ruined world wide by locking in MF support in that series
absolute mad lad
I've been a KT fan since season 2 and Dom is absolutely right about how soul crushing it is 😢
So many over the years, let me remind you, 2013 KT Bullets denied b/c of points system/SKT. 2014 KT Arrows denied b/c of NJWS. 2016 the GP baron steal against ROX. 2017 the SKT reverse sweep. 2018 facing iG in the QF at worlds.
I finally had it and switched to DWG since 2019. Its been goood
I was a CJ Entus fan until their relegation, when i decided to become a KT fan because of Score. After KT continously let me down just like CJ did i just kinda quit watching pro LoL religously.
i've always been an skt fan (i just started watching esports when madlife was the best player in the world) and even i felt super bad for kt...
I don't understand how anyone can put Rookie above Faker in 2017. Even if Rookie played more games, 2017 Worlds Faker is the highest peak anyone ever achieved, and will probably never be topped as a peak. He carried through mid in a meta that forced everyone to play through bot while his botlane is underperforming. Not to mention facing the greatest botlane carry of all time on his road to the finals. Replace Faker with Rookie on that team and they'll probably get swept by RNG. Heck they'll probably even lose to Misfits.
Faker season 7 was arguably his best year. He “should’ve” won mvp in spring, had a solid but not mindblowing msi, hard carried skt in summer 2017 especially in the playoffs, and Uber carried at worlds.
True, impact is consistent. Even in NA @ international he maintains. That's noteworthy.
impact is washed and can only play morde
the crazy thing is like they said, everytime he is supposed to get shit on, he either is completely fine or he even turns it and shits on the person who is supposed to crush him
@@ragex2636 When you think about it he's possibly the best international performing player NA has ever had.
@@DjokovicIsOurLordAndSaviour without a doubt, when it comes to international, he always becomes best player on his team
Anyone have the link to the Dopa video Thorin references when talking about Bengi?
th-cam.com/video/KHUVb9nJl9U/w-d-xo.html
One thing people don't bring up in the Faker discussion is how much the game changed around him. Riot has made many changes over the years to remove a player's ability to hard carry 1v9 with a lot of the changes targeting Faker. His unbeatable champions were pretty much nerfed out of pro viability while mid had strength moved to other areas of team play. No other player has had such individual dominance
Good point.
To be fair, today is a different era, korea doesn’t have their Starcraft 2 infrastructure and are so weak, LPL are aggressive and lose to NA as well. Lucky to have Fnatic change their playstyle and thus int to win 2018. You can see this luck clearly by IG losing to Team Liquid MSI.
Wtf verlis plays league? I used to watch your videos like 7 years ago lmao
@@keelwn547 I have had a handful of league videos sprinkled in the channel over the years
I clearly remember that faker was one of the first people in pro play to mechanically string abilities together seamlessly. Such as when ambitions kha evolved in front of faker and he solo killed him. There was probably no one in pro play at that time who thought of punishing that mistake in such a short time frame as people do now.
I love seeing good intelligent arguments. They can attack points, defend and bring people around to at least understand the points being made and still not agree. It doesn't need to be a fight where someone has to "win" but one where a conversation can breath and give new insight and understanding.
New idea for an award, the chovy award. It will be for the player that had to carry the worst teams to a decent spot
This ^^^
the best player that doesnt shot call... never gets any blame for any team he was on even though his original team was stacked...lol
@@mylastaccount8328 nemesis award haha
@@tim251199 he got blamed and flamed into not playing what do u mean LOL.
Poor chovy.. only gets to play with garbage players like on GRF.. and DRX.. oh wait he had Tarzan.. Viper.. Lehends.. Kiera.. deft.. pyosik.. dorran.. just absolute trash who wouldn't get in even an LCS team... NOT
Dom, you have gained my everlasting respect for actually citing Impact for toplane. This guy is one of the guy that is getting the least amount of respect for his credentials in recent years imo, the guy has even more longevity than soaZ, which is saying a lot while maintainng a much higher level of play overall. Love me some top die
Impact has always been one of my favorite players to follow since the sneaky vids back in the day lmao
S7 Quarterfinals Singed vs. Team WE was insane.
FBI OPEN UP
Unfortunately he played so long in the wild card region called NA that people forgot he was a world class player
@@TheRebornJuker is*
I just wanna say, one of the key reasons why Monte is such a good broadcaster imo, is because he knows how to speak loudly without the need to shout. That's all. Great conversation.
Feels like he is casting to a group of friends not someone who has a job casting like the rest
I think Dandy was so good and Kakao was a genius, but both sides of bengi’s argument was interesting, now you convinced me to think Canyon is not the best jungler in the world (yet).
Everybody: Nah, Rookie is not the GOAT, FAKER IS THE GOAT!!!. No, Score is not the best jungler!
Me: Dom just proved his mettle for the fight with the heavyweight champions of historical content creation. Incredibly thought provoking conversation. Thumbs up.
Rookie should show up at world's more than once or twice and MAYBE try to show up at MSI once in his career to even sneeze at Faker.
@@bonesh0ckerz oh he did show up at msi and beat faker in 17 minutes. And rookie plays in a way better region. Korea has had one good team in the last 2 years, which is damwon.
@@joaobrito2653 You mean 1 all-time great team? Because Korea has had plenty of good teams over the past 2 years. 2019 SKT, 2020 DRX, 2019 Griffin just to name a few.
Edit: Ps so we are going to pretend as if SKT didn't return the favor to IG in their 2nd meeting at that year's MSI? Oh yeah, you also obviously have not seen 2013/2017 Faker if you think 2018 TheShy is the greatest pfp LoL pro of all time
@@madarauchiha4329 I said damwon is the only good team Korea has had the past 3 years. The only other one you can argue is skt 2019. Gen g got beat 3-0 at worlds and got always choked in 2020, drx were chokers and griffin choked too. Griffin every time they had a bo5 they would just giga overthink the draft and always went away from what made them good. Seriously, their series against IG in 2019 they made chovy play tanks vs rookie instead of skill matchups and made dog shit sword play skill matchups against the shy, so yeah it was quite impressive they even managed to win 1 game that series. And 2019 skt was good but not great. They were very predictable, which is why they got beat by g2 pretty consistently. G2 beat them twice in the group stage of msi, then beat them in semi finals of msi and worlds. That was generally the fault of Korean teams, just too predictable. Damwon was predictable but they were so good that you knew what they were gonna do and there was still nothing you could do about it. And this year damwon went 6-0 in spring playoffs and Didn’t look too hot at msi, so if they can shit stomp the lck that hard and not even look great internationally that shows how not good the other lck teams are.
@@joaobrito2653 You're mistaking good with great here.
This is truly a masterpiece, the league of legends knowledge between these 3 is absolutely insane and it’s on full display here! Well done again, please more content with these 3 together!
I was kind of sad that Clearlove wasnt mentioned, his domestic success was at very least comparable to Score and he arguably has an edge over Score internationally (MSI win against Faker)
Good point actually
He lost them every worlds appearence
Choked every worlds sadly
This conversation shows that we need loser's bracket at worlds so bad
Nope if your shit you don’t deserve a second chance
@@TheRebornJuker the more games played, the higher chance the better team wins
@@keelwn547 thats why i hate looser brackets it hurts upsets
@@TheRebornJuker What kind of logic is this? Groups placing is already dog shit as it is. 2016 and 2018 is literally the embodiment of how bad it is. A resounding majority considered SKT vs Rox and IG vs KT to be the greatest series of games in worlds AND BOTH OF THEM WASNT PLAYED IN THE FINALS. Who's to say that either Rox or KT could have beaten their opponents the second time they face each other. These teams are so similar in skill level but unfortunately one team had to lose.
Loser's bracket could create upsets yes but team who's better should always win regardless who's their opponent. Just look at Dota 2's OG in Ti 8. They were able to beat the tournament favorites TWICE. When people still doubted their ability and labelled it as luck, they just to Ti 9 and won making them the first two time international champions in the game's history.
tl;dr - Loser's bracket is hella good, your logic is nonsense, this is proven by League's 2016 and 2018 worlds and OG's miracle run in Dota 2's Ti 8 and then cementing themselves in Ti 9.
probably one of the easiest videos of all time to come back to and enjoy regardless of how many times ive seen this before. i hope for more historical pieces like this with dom specifically, you 3 interact amazingly its hard to think that dom wasnt even the first choice for this conversation
Quite surprised Caps doesn't at least get a mention in this one. Just look at his performances vs top mid laners and the placement he's had since 2018 in EU and Internationally. He's won every split until Spring 2021, won MSI, been a finalist at worlds two years in a row and was knocked out of Worlds 2020 3-4th after losing to the winners of the tournament.
Mid is hard because faker and rookie are too dominate
caps was never the best mid in the world. At no point. when he is maybe he can be included
Caps isnt mentioned because hes so far eternally stuck in that like 4th to 6th+ spot not top 2 or 3 spot
@@ThePolarpop yea lmao idk wtf people are watching thinking caps has ever been top 2 or 3
@@M.L.official If Caps wasn't Top 2-3 in 2019 who was?
Fnatic won the group in season 3 with Samsung Ozone.
CLG.EU won a group with Najin Sword in season 2 as well. I do think the Flash Wolves in season 5 is the most impressive of them because it came during the absolute peak of Korean dominance, which was season 4-7.
Season 7 Faker was better, Rookie had a better team behind him and still couldnt get to the finals. Fakers team was so hard inting him every game, and he litterly carried 4 dead players to the finals.
Factually untrue but ok.
@@M.L.official factually true 100%. Huni was trash, peanut was horrible, and bang wolf was playing the worst they have every played in there history. In season 7, rookie had TheShy who was playing OUT of his mind, and jackielove, who was probably the best ADC that year. But ya untrue...
@@ragex2636 TheShy wasn't that good in 2017 he was strong mechanicly but his synergy with the rest wasn't on point. And in term of ADC Uzi was playing on LPL. Mystic also was better than JKL. The team has high potential but there weren't the best team at all in 2017. LPL was already more competitive than LCK this year.
@@zombie92110 I didnt say they was the best team, but they was WAYYYYY better then SKT was. But Faker still was better then rookie with a worse team. Theshy would have 10-0 huni, JKL would have shit alllllll over bank and wolf.
@@ragex2636 Man you really have no clue what you were watching. For the record, LS thinks Rookie was the best mid laner in the world in 2017, not Faker. Rookie's team was good but you forget how good SKT was in spring and msi and most of summer. Just because they got worse at worlds doesnt mean the team was trash all year. Stop lying and rewriting history.
Monte has such a huge ego. The dude coached a shit NA team 7 years ago, owned a shit NA team 6 years ago, left league for a couple years, and then comes back and expects his thoughts on the game to carry as much weight as someone like Dom. So cringe.
Can we have a version of this conversation for Western only? I would be fascinated to hear the takes for that too. 1 Full season played in West, even if they are imports.
Impact is the Jeter of top lane. He was never best in role for any individual year but he has the brand and longevity.
Stop trying to be edgy or different Faker > Rookie but they are the best 2 but Faker is the best. Stop the SKT hate...
I die laughing every time Dom talks about Piglet XDDDDDD
I don't know why, but i really do enjoy those episodes that talk about something else than the MSI tournament. Let's be real, except for the C9 game and the DFM one this tournament was mega boring.
I dont even watch shit esports, after dyrus and the old players are gone,the pros are mostly shit zoomers
Not picking Bang and Wolf makes this list legit. The “they must be the best cuz they won 2 worlds” argument is so dumb.
i think Wolf deserves an honorable mention, not Bang forsure. But I think Wolf was an amazing player
Wolf was awesome and the reason for the SKT comeback vs EDG at Worlds 2017. To think people though Faker and his shockwave was the reason just forgot that Wolf made it happen.
응 뱅 >>> 데프트야 병x아 ㅋㅋㅋ
BANG >>>> DEFT, UZI
Picking Deft and Uzi makes this list fucked.
The “No worlds, but they must be the best cuz they looked insane” argument is so dumb.
@@사요-y3s that is the most ass backwards thing ever.
Logevity of marin not so good, but to say he wasnt even that good in season 5 is a big big big understatement. He dominated toplane in all of skt games at worlds that year and they went 15-1 that year which is still best worlds run to date. Dunno why they bring up him on maokai when he played darius, renek and fiora. He won both matchups on darius and renek btw , beating renek as darius and beating darius as renek. But yes he is deffo not on list for GOAT toplaner.
The absolute disrespect that they didn’t even mention caps is ridiculous. That man is a :
2x Rivals champion
6x LEC Champion
1x MSI champion
1x MSI MVP
3x LEC MVP
2x Worlds Finalist (back to back)
Like you can’t be serious to not even mention him and not think he’s in contention as being one of the greatest West midlaners is laughable.
Smeb section reminded me of SSW vs SKT 2014 thrash talk, SSW used Smeb as an insult:
"I think his confidence is probably in the gutter right now after he got solo-killed in lane by Smeb"
Can we just not ignore the fact, that the Smeb - Score - Mata (and Deft as the ADC) KT Team even failed to get to Worlds in their first year together?
What's Scores excuse for that?
youre forgetting their former world champ midlaner PawN
Reginald has to be in the conversation. Put some respect on his name. He had the potential to be as good as Rookie but he retired early because Lcs was too easy for him. Biggest what if in LoL history.
No just No. Regi was nowhere near the level of someone like Rookie... even in his Prime he wasn't close. If you had said Bjergsen - fine there is an argument there but Regi.... seriously? Rookie would demolish him.
Yikes Reginald isn’t even top 5 best in the Na region. He was so bad that he benched himself
Smh... the joke flew straight overe these peoples head... hahah
"Rookie better than Faker in season 6,7 ,8 and parts of 9 " - Thoorin.
Hmm, 2016 , Faker had a field day throughout the entire year. Smash spring, MSI, Summer, Worlds. Meanwhile Rookie, had... arguably nothing. China was inferior to KR in all possible ways at that point of time and internationally, Rookie didn't even touch Faker whatsoever.
2017, Rookie didn't do jack shit, while Faker had spring+MSI (AGAIN) while dropping the ball in summer and World's finals when the Malzahar OTP Crown finally decided to lose his spine permanently. (No Rookie to be found)
2018, TheShy 1v9 -ed each world's game while KR was dog shit (noble efforts of KT to do something). Rookie being hard carried by his Top laner who peaked like a motherfucker. Rookie was still very good, but TheShy stole the show entirely.
2019, Faker had spring and MSI (AGAIN ) while Rookie wasn't looking like the best at all.
I really do not see where Thoorin is coming from on that one. When 1 of the regions is better overall and smashes the other one at World's/MSI, how do you even bring it up ? Rookie's track record versus Faker internationally is non-existent since Rookie , cannot last long enough or qualify for there. Faker also had 3 awful years in the face of Season 4(arguable), 8 and 10, but not nearly of how many years Rookie has, wasn't even close.
If you are gonna judge Faker unable to carry 4 dead bodies to the finish line (for like 213232132132132131231 time in his long career), why don't you put the same ball in Rookie's hands ? Cause he cannot even carry with 2 bad players on his team, let alone 3 or 4.
Dude should just stick to Counter Strike already
The thoughts Thorin brings up regarding the downsides for Uzi are literally the same things he said about Faker regarding everybody had to play around him and listen to him and jungle does what he says? You can't use points to defend a player then use the same point to shit talk another player, even if playing devils advocate.
I can recall seasons/games where faker was 2nd or 3rd in team gold but had the highest damage. Faker was/is just something else. He (Faker) was/is also extremely clever, unlike Uzi.
Mata played with the goat from each role, Smeb/Score on KT 2018(Dandy on SSW 2014), Faker on T1 2019, Uzi on RNG 2016.
He is still one of the best Supports to ever play Lol.
@@jamescalder5115 Not really. there's non pros that are most likely better. what mainstream says doesnt matter ,just your limited point of view
Again. Goat is never just about skill. It should combination of skill, achievement, and influence. In terms of skill, it should be a comparison with the player at their era, instead of directly comparing season 1 player and season 10 player.
That is why even tho wolf has better skill and achieve more, is not greater than Madlife.(it is just one example)
Wtf hahah the argument is great but comparing faker legacy to new mid laners today is just too early. Hahahaha like Basketball He is the Jordan he has a bunch of flaws but until someone can do what he did to Skt/T1 he is the GOAT. perks, showmaker, rookie, chovy, clozer, caps, knight, bdd, until i see then having 3 Worlds champion 2x Msi champion. 9x Own Regional (LCK) champion (3x mvp) i will now put them ahead faker. Just my opinion.
Then you did not really listen, they are not judging entirely by trophy case or Smeb will never be considered better than Looper. They are arguing based off of mainly individual performances. That is why Rookie is close in their eyes.
Who can forget Faker shit on Nagne’s Cassiopeia with Riven in the 2015 final. Fly was a decent mid lanes but man 2 hp denying Score that chip was so bittersweet. If Rox or Koo won World’s the run would have been just as beautiful as DRX’s miracle run. Zeka solo’ing Scout 4 consecutive times will be a highlight that will live on from years to come.
In terms of the highest highs I would have included KaKao. That 2014 summer split final was the ultimate 2 man carry job between Rookie and Kakao. Never before have I seen such unique hard carry performances from the jungle. Obviously he has not many other notable accolades, but for high highs he was definitely up there, I would even argue even higher than Dandy, but even shorter of a time period.
Yeah esp the fact that they beat the best team in the world at the time, SSB pre worlds patch
I still remember that Noc pick in game 5 and won that LCK
Didn’t start the video yet but it’s Faker. Aight, now I’ll start the video
I thought Clearlove would be on the list, he was so hypied in China at the time
Caps got to a worlds final with Broxah as a jungler. GOAT.
Season 8 Broxah was build different if you compare him from then to now
Tabe got to Worlds finals once, your argument is invalid
@@LiveErrors K
If we're looking at just performance I don't know how Chovy doesn't get in the conversation
On an individual level yeah, I see what you mean.
Not enough pedigree. He's exceptionally good in LCK. But the one time they went to worlds, they got smack in quarter iirc after smurfing groups. I reckon they would argue that Chovy should have done more in that series
He never win anything tbh. No achievements
The best team wins the championship. We are talking about who is individually the best.
@@abzeromusic He got viper, lehends and tarzan but still failed.
How we gonna have a whole 2 hour conversation about the goats and not bring up the true goat of the jg mikeyueng
Has yet to play at Worlds or even trying to make NA relevant. I wish C9 can get this guy and remove Mr flash for scuttle AKA Blaber.
I have watched this video back again a year later and it stood the test of time so well. This is a timeless piece
Faker performed when it matters most. how tf some random game in LPL can compare to World SEMI-FINAL. it's for a reason that SKT reached where they were at the time and everyone knew that Faker was the man to beat, not fckin Rookie
My favorite part is if you put Smeb, Score, Faker, Uzi and Mata all on the same team, you're recreating a bunch of hard, defined styles that have already clashed and blown up in the past. Yet, I don't know if I can disagree with the lineup lol
if you replace uzi with the comsensus 2 or 3 adc you have deft
its so wild that a team with 4/5 goated players didnt win
i still remember always thinking how they managed not to win with that kt lineup
tbh that kt team is still on paper the most stacked in history
GOAT Players from my favorite leagues.
LCK - Faker, ShowMaker, Bengi
LPL - TheShy, Rookie, Knight
LCS - Doublelift, Bjergsen, Sneaky, Impact / Xmithie??
Best mid has to be Faker or Rookie. Anything else is nonsense.
When I heard about KT fans, I thought about Arsenal and Spurs fans..
36:40, This stuck out to me as strange because I know SSG Haru as a young player so I thought there was no way he was playing in OGN in 2012; he was 14 at the time. Dom was referring to H0R0, who later jungled briefly for UOL in the EU LCS, jungler of Xenics Storm in 2012.
he was also on the skt t1 s roster which had easyhoon marin bang and wolf
And now Deft did overtake Uzi. KT fans are crying rn.
Prime Rookie and TheShy hit diffrent
I really liked this video. You get who they think the best player in the role is, who had the most influence in the past and who made the role what it is today and who could potentially challenge for the goat title.
Meiko, Ming, Crisp but not picking Wolf..
Fxxkin western just hates T1 players except Faker.
No matter what are you talking about,
All of koreans comsider Bang as GOAT adc and dosen't admit these shittest stuff like Meiko, Crisp > Wolf
Don't distort the truth and history.
Western's 'GOAT controversy' isn't worth having public confidence.
Bruh only koreans like you 😂 bet you havent watched lpl for once in your life😂
I think it goes a lot when IWDominate, a pro player reaching gameplay peaks and understanding of jungle that Monte and Thorin combined cannot get, defending Bengi and saying he is underrated. Bengi was underrated, any solid jungle main who watched him from s3-s5 knew he was the pathing god and the faker enabler. There has never been a better player to enable Faker, that alone is enough to say he was underrated. IWDominate is correct here, which is not surprising, consider he is the only one here who is actually really good at the game.
poetic
putting jankos and not bengi...
Can't agree more with Dom here! Bengi's selflessness is extremely valuable and should be counted as his strength. And I'd bet that the reason he didn't play some of those mechanical aggro picks is not that he individually couldn't but because the team (SKT) wasn't comfortable with that playstyle or just simply the team (or coaching staff) thought that helping Faker carry would be much better. When it was needed in the most clutch moments Bengi ALWAYS showed he was one of the best and confidently performed. That's what the game is about! It's not about who can go in practice tool a show better mechanics :D it's about the whole package and performing in the most important moments.
Watching this again two years on and the faker/rookie argument has diminished even more. Faker is still up there. Always has been. The GOAT.
Rookie has made some insanely poor career choices (Leaving KT for IG after winning Champions Summer 2014, taking too long to leave IG, joining V5, etc). His form also dipped hard in 2021 - Faker in that same year was 1 game off of Worlds Finals. Had he stayed at KT, I genuinely think we would have gotten LoL's version of FlaSh vs Jaedong
Actually I'm really glad that Dom defended Bengi. Maybe is not the best, but I believe he deserves to be mentioned.
What's crazy is all the best players for each role...one of them still plays at a high, competitive level.
Has Gilius retired yet?
@@ProvencaLeGaulois LUL
@@ProvencaLeGaulois he is no player he is a god
As to Thorin's question regarding LPL mids in 2017, as someone who watched it closely I'd say Rookie was the best mid. Xiaohu was slightly better in summer and perhaps DoinB was a bit better in spring, but neither of those players maintained their level in both splits whereas Rookie absolutely did.
As to overall ranking I'd still have Faker over Rookie that year though.
Everyone would choose Faker this is just in their Agenda to put Rookie in the same Level as Faker
Thorin, check your ego mate. Every time the show starts and I hear shouting it makes me immediately turn it off
god fucking dammit guys i cant laugh like this when they put sex analogy and deft/ruller. people look funny at me.
Top: Perkz
Jg:Perkz
Mid:Perkz,Faker
Adc:Uma Jan,Uzi
Sup:Perkz
The DISRESPECT my boy Xiaohu always gets when people talk about these goat lists is criminal i swear.
Alot of people forgot riot removed thresh’s q flash ability after what madlife did in mid summer all star event( now msi )
I agreed with everything, only thing I would add is giving CoreJJ a little shoutout in the support section, I think he's done a lot in his career, is very consistent, and I think makes awesome shot-calls and adapting to any adc's play style he supports.
He has played in na so he automatically get disqualified. Wild card region players can’t be in the conversation
@@TheRebornJuker i mean, if thats the case Perkz shouldnt be there either lol
@@tehawsumninja its already happning slowly but surely his mechanis will be worse and worse for every season he plays in NA. Also by playing in NA his IQ will drop rapidly
@@TheRebornJuker yes but i meant: the three of them included Perkz on this list, so then that shouldnt exclude corejj is my point. We obviously are negating NA-itis and just focusing on their abilities in a bubble
I would love it if this conversation become series. This is the best 3 hour video ever. Cant remember how many times I've watched it. Love you all.
With deft winning worlds KT now had 4 of 5 GOATs LOL
Deft definitely a huge choker. I was super impressed by him back in the day but after 2014/15 I never paid attention to him anymore because I just expected him to not show up when it mattered and he never proved me wrong. He's a guy where the name looks good on the roster you look like a legit team when you have him but you're not.
Sadly, he peaked during Spring/MSI 2015 and never looked the same since. But his Jinx was sick in his prime.
feels like he lost his killer instinct after coming back from LPL. he looked so good in LPL, where he actually made regular outplays to carry games, the sivir highlight play particularly stands out to me despite being years ago
@@ade1174 He never looked the same since 2015? His two beast years individually were actually 2016 and 2019 (2015 would be third), so there's no way he never looked the same. He was a top 3 adc in the world from 2014-spring 2020 (was #1 in 2016 and arguably 2015 and 2019).
Great episode and great topic. Few points I'd like to make.
1. Thanks for mentioning Meiko for Support. He's been my sleeper pick for best Support for years but being the EDG star player and unable to move has limited his potential. He's an amazing support, has incredible longevity and you can't pin him down as just a tank support engage master because he was also amazing at the ranged supports way back when they were allowed to be good,
2. Not mentioning Caps for mid as a legit pick is a crime. He was back to back World's Final loser which matches Uzi's achievement from a definitively weaker region. Good on giving Perkz his dues but despite Caps' faults he was pivotal in what made those runs and the MSI win possible. Compare Caps' career to Uzi; they're tied in International success already, basically.
3. I don't disagree with Smeb and Score picks but ultimately those choices will never feel as definitive as Faker Mid, Uzi ADC or Mata Support. Top and Jungle haven't had that guy who not only dominates and redefines the role but then also has legitimate longevity and results/eye test of truly GOAT level players like the other three roles do. Jungle has Karsa and Jankos for longevity and GOATesque results but there are elements that hold them back from getting the respect they potentially deserve. Nuguri seems like he'll cement himself as the Top GOAT but we need to see a couple more years of him; The Shy unfortunately seems to be squandering his potential.
for me the difference between smeb and 2 is bigger than between uzi and 2
the only definitive ones are faker and mata in my eyes
The problem with caps is he is just like chovy a godly mechanical midlaner.
This really made me think about what could have been, had the Griffin Core (Chovy, Tarzan, Viper) stayed together. They imo should have been Damwon or atleast made it a 2 horse race. Especially if you consider how much Tarzan and Chovy´s Playstyle compliment each other.
Griffin may be the greatest tragedy in League esports- such a good team with no titles to their name. Imo at their peaks more impressive than Damwon was last summer.
GRF were overrated. They were touted as the most dominant team in LCK... but never actually won anything. They completely collapsed when the Pressure was on.
2018 - 13-5 - In Koreas weakest year; KZX getting stomped by RNG at MSI, GenG going 1-5, Afreeca getting stomped by C9 and KT losing in Qtrs to IG... Griffin lost to KT and then lost to Gen G despite being Heavy favourites in both series.
2019 - 15-3 - got stomped by SKT in spring finals 3-0.
2019 - 13-5 (Same as DWG w/ Nuclear) - got stomped by SKT in summer finals 3-1.
They aren't even comparable to DWG in Summer 2020... who were the clear cut best team in LCK and in the world without Question. The only team close to them in LCK was DRX and they stomped them in finals. Griffin in 2019 were not more impressive than DWG in summer 2020. Like what?
@@jamescalder5115 You have to go back and watch Griffin's games to understand how crazy their ascent was. In their rookie split they dominated the regular season (Viper could play ADCs and any other champ bot lane, Chovy was a menace, Tarzan was one of the best jungles in the world) and took KT to 5 games. It was close- the superteam of Korea at their peak almost lost to a bunch of upstart rookies. Admittedly they fell apart in the gauntlet and became another victim of the samsung gauntlet run. Griffin would go long stretches of time looking unstoppable- their issue became that once they suffered a big loss it had a significant mental affect on them and they would play worse for a while after. I would not be surprised if that was in part due to the old-korean starcraftesque atmosphere of their teamhouse.
@@bik7590 I understand their ascent... they were just overrated, people like to pretend that they were stronger back in the day than DWG in summer 2020 when just off eye test they were hugely flawed - DWG were the best team in the world in Summer and it wasn’t close - The meta perfectly suited them, they had the best players in every role and the aggressive but controlled style they played perfectly mixed with the Meta.
They had an insane ascent in 2018 but they were hugely flawed as a team and I think people overvalue how good they were as a team, specifically to take away from DWG because;
1.) Chovy was on Griffin.
2.) Because they don’t like DWG.
They are labelled as equivalent to DWG in summer 2020 when they were mentally weak, struggled to play from behind, had often bad reads on the Meta (Like Lucian Funnel), ignored strong picks for other teams like Rulers Vayne or tried to overforce plays even if things weren’t working for them... they would also randomly go off the boil and sometimes would look like they were playing on separate pages. Same as Individually they were great but if one part of the team fell behind... the wheels would fall off because they couldn’t cover each other’s weaknesses so they would just bleed out...
Griffin against DWG now would potentially be more competitive but not worlds DWG.
I know soaz and xpeke shouldn't be on the list for best but man was that fnatic team the most fun to watch
True
Doesn’t Marin also have the highest number of solo kills for a top laner in LCK history and also get worlds MVP? I’m not trying to say that he’s the best. But I don’t think it’s the most egregious contender for best top laner. (especially when it comes to output in a single season)
Marin sucked, he had a good worlds in 2015 where there were all those broken champs but he never did anything before or after that worlds.
I cant believe Thorin still doesn't know how to pronounce Uzi:s name...... I die a little on the inside every time he says "UZI-AYE"
It’s just his accent m8
@@TheRebornJuker It's just being stubborn. Very easy to say Uzi's name.
I think doing what if experiments is nice but the "what if they spoke Korean" goes a bit too far because it changes too much of what potential could have happened.
just some of the things you have to consider is how they would develop as a player if they got to move and play in the best league in the world surrounded by the best players, depending on who they end up with how that would complete or just straight up alter their style and gameplay. it just assumes alot about the crop players they would get to play with and how they would work with them.
To reinforce monte's point early about how not all greats win trophies, i thimk a good example would be Carey Price of the Montreal Canadiens, in the NHL.
Ever since he joined the league, he has been touted by the media, his teammates and opponents alike as one of the best goaltenders of his generation, if not THE best. Almost every year he is in the top 3 candidates to win the Vezina trophy, awarded to the most impressive goaltender of the regular season, and he has won it on 2 occasions if im not mistaken
Yet, the Montreal Canadiens havent made the Stanley cup finals once since the 1990s. Of the entirety of Price's career, they only made semi finals once... while he was sidelined by an injury at the time, and they got swept 4-0 by the philadelphia flyers. Everyone in the hockey scene agrees he should be one of the most decorated players of the last 20 years, and hes got nothing to show for it
I am so glad the audio got better It was like getting wiped out by a wave and finally rising to surface
News flash post-Worlds - Deft DID overtake Uzi, so the 2018 KT had 4 of the 5 GoATs 😁
Imo G2's choke this split was comparable to Kt. They have arguably the most skilled western players of all time in every position (if we don't account for Perkz lane swap) and were able to convincingly lose 2 times.
I think trying to use the Scottie Pippen angle as an argument against Bengi is a bad move, people forget Scottie was the best SF in the league during that time even independent of Jordan. During the one full year MJ as retired for he still carried that team to the 3rd and only 2 games behind first.
hype episode, several years of competitive League culminates to this episode, each role adds to the fun too
- Flame, one of the biggest what-ifs for League players, pretty sad for big fans / top-lane players
- For me, I thought whoever won between KT and IG, would win 2018 Worlds. I thought KT should have won. It would have been an awesome finals with KT there if not with IG there also.
- Geeze, straight up sounded like DanDy and other players traded their health (smog, mental, etc.) for money in China
- s/o to the knight/ShowMaker pick from Monte, also Chovy is a beast at laning though which is insane but that's it for contention
- Ruler has extremely "gorgeous" gameplay for standards of each year and truly is an ideal ADC. Probably the best term to explain the lack of attention he gets in comparison (aside not winning as much) would be reserved for 'aficionados for high-level League'.
- Deft is my boy, but man, that teleport Jayce in the middle of a team fight from 2015 quarters was rough and represents his shortcomings in a nutshell lol
- Dom did a really great explanation about MadLife. The fact that some moments in League can be calculated into simple states [programming logic] (more broadly for sports, trapping someone into something because it's ideal or an immediate thought) is pretty crazy for how much liberty there is for positions on the map (in the sense of a game).
Great video, many good years for League
3:01:19 lmfao
3:13:11 yes, but like everyone else, "Please don't."
three brilliant people, amazing episode, thank you for that opportuniy to dive deep down lol memory lane.
oh oh oh i know who smeb got to finals with in s5 it was hojin, at the time it was essentially smeb being a damn god
Bengi is the best "mid-support" of all time. so it can count as a jungler.
I also think playing utility ADC is also an important role of a team. So i will defiantly put Pray on the list.
So i think Impact, Bengi and Pray can be seen as the best role player of their position of all time.
I am also surprise not seeing Clearlove on the list. not a flashy player but is able to survive jungle changes for 7 years and still be dominating.
"pray isn't going to win you games"
wtf monte