the shitty thing about hello fresh and other boxed services like this is the amount of plastic packaging that gets shipped with every small order, so not only are we paying huge costs in oil usage for shipping small packages all over the world, but we're also paying for all the plastic packaging that'll end up in the trash that then will most likely compound the plastic contamination issues in our oceans.
My general impression is the other FGC characters are more rewarding. Terry is probably the most stable, having better speed, good moves, good combos and a really potent comeback mechanic. Kazuya is very swingy. Rather slow and bad neutral, but it doesn't matter when he just needs to hit once to win. Even Ryu is more rewarding despite being slower.
I mained Ken like, 3 years ago. When I lost a close set to someone falling out of shoryuken I decided from that point on that I was dropping him, I had never felt so salty in my life. His millions of different inconsistencies on top of SDI being added counterplay made me realize the character was going to drop off given time. It really wasn't until I started playing a lot of other characters that I realized Ken just has A LOT of issues in general. Most pointed out in this video. Sure he can absolutely destroy stocks but only if you give him the right situation to do so, AND if his moves actually work. These days I main Terry and I've had way more fun, success, and way less stress. Because I get to have good neutral AND punish game. And far less headaches because he's way more consistent. I don't really want to encourage other people to drop Ken, cause he can still be really sick. But just know that choosing Ken also means you're choosing a life of extreme highs and lows.
I've lost more than one tournament game due to my opponent falling out of Shoryuken. It's not so much inconsistent options and matchups that made me drop the character, but the fact that he doesn't even work correctly. Funny enough, they actually BUFFED the consistency of shoryuken at some point I believe and it's STILL inconsistent. I firmly believe that Ryu and Ken were both bottom 5 or so when the game launched, but that's a different story.
Damn I'm a ken main lol, give my thoughts after I watch. Damn, pretty good video, people rarely get stuff right about the shotos, even top players but most of this was accurate. Personally I think Ryu's better and I have him and Terry as secondaries but Ken's playstyle will always click with me the most.
Yeah I always thought ken was better (probably biased lol) but I'm realizing that Ryu is probably the better of the two thanks to having a better neutral. Still love playing ken and won't be dropping him anytime soon
@@perpetuallyconfused09 Yeah, he was actually originally my worst character. I picked him up cuz I had fond memories playing at an arcade at a ice cream parlor as a kid, so I thought I'd give him a try. Learning him was tough but I found the grind fun and now he's my comfort pick.
One thing that Ken still has over Ryu is shield pressure. All the mixups with his combos and crazy kicks mixed with the shield damage of the axe kick means you're getting a lot of shield pokes, shield breaks, or premature drop shields. If you're really good at utilizing the mixups, even someone who knows the matchup will have trouble staying safe under Ken's shield pressure.
This is not what the video is about but that ‘crouch dash’ thing kazyua can do is called a wave dash. It's the definite trait of the Mishima archetype along with the EWGF and is where the name of the technique in smash originated from.
Right. It always was strange to me that Smash wavedash was named after the technique from other fighting games where dash is canceled with a crouch. It looks like a wave moving over water when done multiple times. I always thought tri-dash made more sense for borrowing a name from other games for the Smash wavedash. Smash wavedash doesn't look like a wave to me and performing it feels like a tri-dash.
@@SalamanderLights When you perform the Smash wavedash with perfect timing, the jump-up part of the technique becomes unseeable and so the technique looks about the same as a Tekken wavedash, especially when you do it in the same direction rather than alternating left and right. The landing frames of a dodge towards the ground looks a lot like a crouch. MvC tri-dashes on the other hand, even though they have roughly the same input, tend to always have their jump part visible. At least, that has always been my perception of them.
Basically, Ken got heavily power crept by the addition of Terry and Kazuya, and not getting buffed when Ryu was, making him a character that isn’t bad, but outclassed on so many aspects by the other FGC characters and even some other more grounded centric characters
Before premiere: I don't know much about Ken, but I assume it's mostly because Ken got gradually outclassed thanks to further patches. Ryu has the better Hadouken for zoning and neutral, Terry has the better mobility and burst options, and Kazuya just presses one input and wins. Also, he takes a considerable amount of mental energy to play well, since your reaction and punish game have to be absolutely on point for what few openings you get with him, especially against zoners who I assume to be his worst matchups. There's also the frustration that comes from his Shoryuken being notoriously inconsistent, and well, that's his main way of taking stocks without reads or conditioning. It's kinda hard to play a character who needs to dig deep for a good hit, has a strong kill move that's unreliable to just fully connect, and has really tough competition for the role of "few openings, but explodes off said openings" character.
And despite all this, I still stick to Ken. Yes, shoryuken can fail at crucial moments. Yes, zoners are a brutally difficult matchup. And yes, there are probably better characters for damage per combo. But despite all that, I'll still stick to Ken. That feeling you get when you get a good read or DI mixup and take a stock super early is incredibly satisfying and I will ride that high till the end of time if I have to.
@@equinox-XVI The good news is that Ken might be more fun in double battles than Ryu, because in double battles things are more unpredictable and Kens speed makes it easier for him to adapt.
Crazy thing is Ken was one of my most wanted characters when Smash Ultimate was revealed. Then when he got announced I got super hyped! I was convinced he would be one of my mains for sure! Then the game came out and I sucked with him... so I vowed to practice and get good with him. But instead I constantly forget he's even in the game. Especially as the DLC fighters started rolling out and I was naturally better at playing as most of them than I am with Ken
Just here to complain. I both love and hate kens tatsu so much. I like how it can go through (select) projectiles and is his main burst option, especially because he can Kara cancel into it. But what annoys me to no end, is how if a character has a fast enough jab, in early to mid percents, they can just jab and act before Ken can after tatsu ends. Which makes absolutely no sense because this move is kens only burst option to close gaps against certain characters just to be punished for hitting your move.
Can you do a video on the difference between mkleo and most of the player base including other pros. Feels like he’s one of the only pros I see actually play this game and make it look like a fighting game. The way he plays with each of his characters is just pure fundamentals of fighting games. You don’t throw out moves unless they are actively advancing your play-state. He often doesn’t even go over the top with waiting for enemies moves because the fastest way to react is if you aren’t in the middle of another action. This all sounds like obvious shit but if you look at tournaments you can even see the top 8 be filled with everyone throwing hail marries. It’s the reason why Leo will stay king, it’s also the reason why everyone will continue to get shit on by Steve. Would be interesting to see an analysis of MKleos gameplay verses other pros who regularly top or win events. Last game it was zero who embodied this playstyle but he did it by using characters with faster moves. Making it so the opponent would always be at a disadvantage if they tried going in as zero did. This is common knowledge in fighting games but I see a lack of it shown in smash and it’s clones. It’s definitely has something to do with some moves being lag less or having little end lag so people thing they are safe even when they whiff it. While yes you can act out faster but you can also get hit during the animation if they have any disjoint or they could take advantage of the game state you put yourself in by throwing out a move.
Honestly, this video just made me think about Ken's position in the the tier list in his home games. I think his worse game was 2nd Impact, but this might be a close 2nd :D
As a primarily shoto main, I can say that terry and kazuya outclass ken and ryu in many ways, including being somewhat easier to play in most mus. The problem is is that there aren't many new shoto players, because everyone who wanted to play them already is. Most of the ryu and ken players I know in top level are the same names typically, but most of the newcomers play terry and kazuya.
@@ara-ara4377 Terry is easy in Smash but not Kazuya. I feel like that's the reason everyone isn't playing him. That and the fact that Steve is insanely free and has a similarly oppressive combo game so you have a bunch of random players on the world stage with him.
Meta be damned, I will never stop playing this character! Ken kicks ass and is still a blast to play three years into this game. Sure, he's got his fair share of bad matchups, but he's got plenty of good ones as well. He may not be solo-viable anymore, but he's still a great character to have in your toolkit. The meta in general has been evolving to where fewer and fewer characters are viable solo-mains anyway. But that's only relevant for tourneys. I mostly just play casual for some good fun, and playing as Ken in Ultimate is still some of the most fun I've ever had with Smash.
Ken used to be considered one of the best fighter characters to play as but he just gets outclassed by Ryu, Terry, and Kazuya these days. Riddles used to main Ken but once Terry (and later Kazuya) came out, he dropped Ken completely getting much better results with those two.
Great work as always! Would love to see Why No One Plays Banjo, as I recently came across one at a tournament and realized I hadn't seen more than a handful since his launch
Fighter characters almost entirely rely on their strength due to (usually) poor physics and recovery, and Ken just can't really compete with the stronger fighters as DLC and Patches have put him further and further behind
I played ken since launch. Terry feels easier for most of the match but I find it easier to get the stock with kens down tilt into his half circle forward roundhouse. I keep switching between ryu ken and Terry
Vendetta vs Goblin at glitch infinite was sort of the swan song of Ken. Vendetta goes down 2-0 as Ken, switches to what was thought at the time the worst pick, Ryu, and wins the set. That's when I knew things in the meta were changing
I was always on Ryu's side. Ken had much better combos, but he falls apart incredibly at higher or awkward percents because his combo game and kill confirms are just predictable. Ryu is more about mind games anyway, and his kill options are a little more flexible. He has crazy ways of catching the opponent, and always excelled on pressure. One slip could very well mean a stock at 60%- which takes about 1-2 combos to get the opponent to.
I always supported Ryu over Ken as well. One of the common arguments people would make to me was "but Ken has crazy shield-break setups dude!". My reply was always "Well, Ryu has a single button that breaks shields WITHOUT a setup".
Like you said, Ken having only two (or three) consistent killing moves is what also makes him (and Ryu) boring to watch usually. Ryu and Ken players only do the same combos over and over and kill with the same moves. Even Terry players tend to do same and thing over and over often. The thing I like about Kazuya is that he has so much variety compared to the other fgc and at least he's fun to watch (Even if challenging to fight).
Terry and especially Kazuya only have more kill options because they are DLC. Ryu and Ken's design balance in Smash Bros. 4 and Ultimate is flawed and needed rebalancing. While most of their mid to heavy normals do more damage on average than most other characters who aren't heavies, and the knockback of most normals is reduced to make some of their normals be able to combo so they have more combo options and opportunities for sizeable damage when they win neutral, at the same time, they have more normals that can't kill at good percentages than some other characters. So that's why they have to rely so much on their quick confirms which lead into their input Shoryukens for optimal lower percentage kills. Ryu and Ken's design is a novelty at best when you also have characters like Luigi and Peach who have higher damage combos, some of which are potentially more deadly but don't suffer the knockback penalty on most of their normals.
Honestly I think that the biggest reason why Shotos/Kazuya/Terry don't see any play is that the players who would be interested in those characters are probably FGC heads, and instead of playing Smash they would rather just go play the game they come from. I know everytime I play Kazuya in Smash, all I can think about is how much I'd rather be playing Tekken.
That's honestly really true. Whenever I play Kazuya in smash, I feel obligated to play Tekken instead. It's easier in my opinion because not everyone is a tryhard in Tekken, unlike Smash.
(Written before watching) I think they buffed Ryu too much which left Ken behind while Ryu just kept getting better and better. Ryu would already be better than Ken because neutral is more important than advantage, and Ryu is better with neutral. But the buffs to damage on Hadoukens for instance, and Ryu's more useful DSmash canceling and Kata Tatsu being an insanely burst kill option. Ken probably needed 1 or 2 good buffs to become good again
Most MU's in this game boil down to who can camp who out harder, so it's reasonable to understand why Ken is seeing so little play. Ryu at least has decent projectiles and functional burst options to fight camp meta.
The problem with ken and ryu will always be their static air movement. They cannot accelerate or slow down in the air at all. You don’t realize how bad it is until you main them, and it’s even worse for ken
@4:12 is partially incorrect. Only a small few of Ken's moves are weaker in damage and / or knockback than Ryu's. Hadouken, Tatsu, fsmash, nair, and / or upair. But besides Hadouken which is generally considerably worse and not part of Ken's forte he can compensate with most of the others in a significant way as they prioritize speed and / or practicality. IMO In Ultimate Ken is a little better than Ryu in most practical situations that come up in high level gameplay due to his better ground speed, pressure and tech chase potential, advantage state, and a few of his best kill options are more reliable. Ryu's much stronger projectile game amounts to little if nothing in neutral against a lot of the best characters in the game who have options to nullify the projectiles and / or move in quickly avoid the projectiles and punish due to how laggy they are. Ryu is a character who needs platforms to truly shine overall and for his projectile game to truly show it's utmost worth, but at the same time those very platforms can also give the opponent a easy way to avoid his projectiles. People mainly don't use Ken as much because Terry is somewhat similar when it comes to his gameplan and while he may not be as fast and can't pressure shield as well he is more vesatile due to his variety of burst options, stronger projectiles, stronger offstage and edgeguarding, heavier so he can survive longer and has incredibly strong comeback potential with GO. Terry's DLC privilege and advantages mostly invalidates Ryu and Ken outside of fringe situations. I say all of this as a Ryu main who prefers Ryu over Ken because of his character and because I find his playstyle more fun. Regardless great vid.
When smash first came out, I was excited to play 3 characters: Pichu, cause i'd never played melee and i like having fun with the "weaker" characters, Isabelle, and Ken. To this day, i still play all three and love each of them very much lol
I see it as this: the fighting game characters draw a specific playstyle and all of them specialize in one thing except Ken. Explosive combos are Kazuya, relative ease of use is Terry, and zoning is Ryu so what does Ken have that would draw anyone.
Ken has the ability to attract people unaware of his lack of specialization, attract those chasing after supposed high-powered high before you play Terry, or people deliberately wanting to go against the other three classical fighters.
I think ken is played for the same reasons bayo and falcon are played funny combos and funnier cheese not saying their anywhere similar but they all want to get a early lead and use their good advantage
LOL I had to laugh at the footage playing in the background while talking about how the differences were traditional. I've played original SF2 Ryu vs Ken a billion times on the SNES and there wasn't a single difference between them yet lol
I main ken. He is very combo heavy, but his combos are a must to be in the ball park with terry, kazuya, and ryu. I still think he is a great character, I think he should cause more guard breaks. His combos are so good when someone tries to shield you, but it surprising that it doesn't break the guard. A 3 hit combo with ryu can break a shield, but can barely do that with a 6 hit combo. Also, utilizing the parry make ken so good as well. His speed and combos punish great when you parry.
If you wana play Ken at a serious level and succeed you have to just be a REALLY good player. You’re choosing to make it hard on yourself when Ryu, Terry, Kaz are all sitting right there. Ken is sweet tho, salute
First Ken's wife leaves him, now this? _Sadge_ (I play Street fighter III lmao so I have some attachment to him even if I play Cloud (from day 1 btw) in this game)
I use Ken Sephiroth and Terry lately Kazuya. Ken with the darker skin tone always been my main since I’ve started playing that true Shoryuken never gets old
Do you think you can do a video on Mario or Corrin? I personally would like to see why (maybe I don't know) everyone plays Mario my main or why no one plays my secondary Corrin.
@@ikaros6633 the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. Not Helping matters is that Nintendo Treehouse didn't do a good job with Localization. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung. As For Smash Corrin, most fans think that Corrin isn't very unique compared to Robin, who now as an inventory System.
As a day one solo Ken main, it’s really sad and unfortunate to watch this video, because you’re 100% correct. If FP2 never existed, then Ken MAYBE would’ve stood a chance in the meta today, but FP2 is very clearly pay2win, and the devs never bothered to fix Ken’s issues with his hitboxes and consistency. Playing Ken will always be fun for me no matter what, because I get to play Street Fighter, Marvel, AND Smash all in one game, but that’s exactly the problem. I have to play Street Fighter, Marvel, AND Smash to even have a chance to win
To be fair, i loved ken and ryu for about 5 minutes. I need a way to turn off the button input special moves. I accidentally perform a special move way to often and cant even use them for fun.
Ken's multi-hit, combo game is actually true for Street Fighter as well, Ken's Hadoken is slower, his Tatsu does multiple hits but doesnt knock down, and Ken's Shoryuken is a 3 hit attack with a fire effect!
The best Street Fighter game Ultimate is simmilar to is Street Fighter 3: Third Strike where the top tiers are Chun-Li (a tactial footsies character) and Yun (Basically the Kazuya of the game with Genei-Jin), with other characters like Ken are still good but not as broken as the top two
I disagreed with two major points, both being that the meta is primarily bait and punish and zoning, the other was something about aerials being primarily more useful then grounded moves. For the latter, it depends on the character ig, but the former straight up just isn't true. I don't know why smashers need to be told this endlessly, but the top tiers do not define the meta or even the people who are winning. The meta in its entirety defines the meta and the meta even rn is determined entirely by a players versatility to do all three as quickly and potently as possible camping, mid-range/zoning and aggressive play with intuition mixed in there. Only time that isn't the case is if the the best character(s) in the game are overwhelmingly better then everyone else which smashers have been wrong on for not just this game, but the previous game too. Only true with brawl and don't forget it you whinners. Anyway. Ken: I feel like he is a product of the "I'd rather win then be the best with this character" mindset with a lot of people in the smash community. Its because he doesn't have a gap closer, because he's not kazuya 0-deathing people and because he can be inconsistent that people do not think he's that good. He's basically what I said about inkling, but a little worse because the ONLY person trying with Ken is Jahzzo and obviously Jahzzos fundies still need work, no offense. Unlike with inkling though, I have no ideas for optimizations, but its possible you just need to know the character inside out and really know what move is good when. He can definitly still be better then ryu, but he'll never be as good or as consistent as terry and kazuya and that is the part I do agree with.
Ken should have been a skin for Ryu and Chun Li added in place lol I know she'd be somewhat close to Sheik but with the FGC playstyle, her projectile, upside down tornado kick, etc she could have worked.
I watch this video up to 6:00 min mark and I was so lost with everything you said. I will never understand the mechanics of fighting games I just like smashing buttons and having fun
Even with the meta change most rushdown characters has still been high tier but many players play a bit more patient these days that's what you saying?
Truthfully, with the buffs and meta of Ryu right now, the only thing Ken has over Ryu is just his speed. Nowadays, even Ken's awesome anti-air SRK can be replicated with Ryu's uair + SRK (although obviously much tougher). Not only that, Ryu has the better nair and uair compared to Ken making him better for air to air conversions. Don't get me wrong though, Ken's speed is still great in cases where Ryu's neutral isn't as effective (ie. MU where fireball isn't too effective). But yeah, Ken's usecase nowadays is very limited to specific use cases.
Crouch dash is a necessity technique for Kazuya which allows him to do some of his key moves. But i didnt know that move was invincible in smash, in tekken its does not even high crush lol
I have seen several Ken players in ultimate. Besides regular smash players use characters with tons of projectiles and just play to zone you, stay as far away from you as possible and take 0 risks, lately this has been getting worse and worse. Ken isn't this kind of character, you need to get close with Ken in order to make serious damage.
@Joshua Suh I don't follow competitive, so this video and your comment are the first I've heard of either of those things lol I didn't even know those were a thing; sounds like fun!
@Joshua Suh I should probably mention that this is the first "competitive" Smash video I've watched in years, apart from all the Minecraft related ones lol. Just stumbled upon it in my recommended
Huh, they didn't give ken his alpha series QCB LP/MP/HP quick forward roll. This was always a good move to get under Highs and overheads so ken can hit his flaming shoryu or start up a combo. They also limited his Hadouken range. Which isn't accurate to the SF games but they did that to him in this game and all the hyper fighting versus games for baffling reasons. His Hadoukens already have less damage, cutting the range made him as useless in the hyper fighting games as old Dan. Pretty crappy version of Ken was implemented in smash. If they input his 3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 2 versions he'd be firmly top tier for sure. Somebody on the smash dev team was sipping Haterade when they decide to incorporate ken in the game. Meanwhile they input the god tier version of Terry which is the one with DP input for rising tackle, unlimited range power wave, and power dunk as standard on top of his burning knuckle and crackshoot this is EX Terry from CvS1 millennium fight 2000. CvS1 Pro, released as an updated version of CvS1, Neuters EX Terry to be worse than his non EX version and a similar neutered Terry appears in CvS2. Terry's original CvS1 EX form and KoF 98 version were the strongest forms of Terry, he only became weaker afterwards.
I feel like this video could be said in one sentence. "Now that kazuya and terry exist, nobody wants to play the shotos because the dlc fighters are just op versions of ken and ryu"
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the shitty thing about hello fresh and other boxed services like this is the amount of plastic packaging that gets shipped with every small order, so not only are we paying huge costs in oil usage for shipping small packages all over the world, but we're also paying for all the plastic packaging that'll end up in the trash that then will most likely compound the plastic contamination issues in our oceans.
You should do a Why no one plays about Little Mac
My general impression is the other FGC characters are more rewarding. Terry is probably the most stable, having better speed, good moves, good combos and a really potent comeback mechanic. Kazuya is very swingy. Rather slow and bad neutral, but it doesn't matter when he just needs to hit once to win. Even Ryu is more rewarding despite being slower.
“Kazuya has bad neutral” is the most wild thing I’ve read today.
@@ekothesilent9456 as long as you respect his electric immunity and throw, he's not gonna be able to play neutral
@@ekothesilent9456 zone him out . The issue is only if you both have close combat characters. 😂
Lmfao at people actually believing Kaz has a bad neutral
@@kailynx2295 Kazuya neutral is oppressive as fuck
I mained Ken like, 3 years ago. When I lost a close set to someone falling out of shoryuken I decided from that point on that I was dropping him, I had never felt so salty in my life. His millions of different inconsistencies on top of SDI being added counterplay made me realize the character was going to drop off given time. It really wasn't until I started playing a lot of other characters that I realized Ken just has A LOT of issues in general. Most pointed out in this video. Sure he can absolutely destroy stocks but only if you give him the right situation to do so, AND if his moves actually work.
These days I main Terry and I've had way more fun, success, and way less stress. Because I get to have good neutral AND punish game. And far less headaches because he's way more consistent.
I don't really want to encourage other people to drop Ken, cause he can still be really sick. But just know that choosing Ken also means you're choosing a life of extreme highs and lows.
😂😝😈😂
@@MetaGamingDojo
...Okay?
@@ados1280 😈😉
@@MetaGamingDojo
Ah I see. Of course. Well I hope you get that sorted out. I know it can be pretty hard. Good talk good talk. 👍
I've lost more than one tournament game due to my opponent falling out of Shoryuken. It's not so much inconsistent options and matchups that made me drop the character, but the fact that he doesn't even work correctly. Funny enough, they actually BUFFED the consistency of shoryuken at some point I believe and it's STILL inconsistent. I firmly believe that Ryu and Ken were both bottom 5 or so when the game launched, but that's a different story.
Damn I'm a ken main lol, give my thoughts after I watch.
Damn, pretty good video, people rarely get stuff right about the shotos, even top players but most of this was accurate. Personally I think Ryu's better and I have him and Terry as secondaries but Ken's playstyle will always click with me the most.
Yeah I always thought ken was better (probably biased lol) but I'm realizing that Ryu is probably the better of the two thanks to having a better neutral. Still love playing ken and won't be dropping him anytime soon
I always like seeing people playing who they want no matter what (I am one of these people bayo for life)
Yeah, Ken player here. Something about his animations and the small differences make him feel better to play than Ryu
@@perpetuallyconfused09 Yeah, he was actually originally my worst character. I picked him up cuz I had fond memories playing at an arcade at a ice cream parlor as a kid, so I thought I'd give him a try. Learning him was tough but I found the grind fun and now he's my comfort pick.
One thing that Ken still has over Ryu is shield pressure. All the mixups with his combos and crazy kicks mixed with the shield damage of the axe kick means you're getting a lot of shield pokes, shield breaks, or premature drop shields. If you're really good at utilizing the mixups, even someone who knows the matchup will have trouble staying safe under Ken's shield pressure.
Powercreep, Terry and Kazuya came and just overtook him. Still a good character tho
This is not what the video is about but that ‘crouch dash’ thing kazyua can do is called a wave dash. It's the definite trait of the Mishima archetype along with the EWGF and is where the name of the technique in smash originated from.
Right. It always was strange to me that Smash wavedash was named after the technique from other fighting games where dash is canceled with a crouch. It looks like a wave moving over water when done multiple times. I always thought tri-dash made more sense for borrowing a name from other games for the Smash wavedash. Smash wavedash doesn't look like a wave to me and performing it feels like a tri-dash.
@@SalamanderLights When you perform the Smash wavedash with perfect timing, the jump-up part of the technique becomes unseeable and so the technique looks about the same as a Tekken wavedash, especially when you do it in the same direction rather than alternating left and right. The landing frames of a dodge towards the ground looks a lot like a crouch.
MvC tri-dashes on the other hand, even though they have roughly the same input, tend to always have their jump part visible. At least, that has always been my perception of them.
Wavedash is just a bunch of crouch dashes chained together, so the way he said it wasn't wrong.
No one cares fucking virgin
wavu wavu
Basically, Ken got heavily power crept by the addition of Terry and Kazuya, and not getting buffed when Ryu was, making him a character that isn’t bad, but outclassed on so many aspects by the other FGC characters and even some other more grounded centric characters
Before premiere: I don't know much about Ken, but I assume it's mostly because Ken got gradually outclassed thanks to further patches. Ryu has the better Hadouken for zoning and neutral, Terry has the better mobility and burst options, and Kazuya just presses one input and wins. Also, he takes a considerable amount of mental energy to play well, since your reaction and punish game have to be absolutely on point for what few openings you get with him, especially against zoners who I assume to be his worst matchups. There's also the frustration that comes from his Shoryuken being notoriously inconsistent, and well, that's his main way of taking stocks without reads or conditioning. It's kinda hard to play a character who needs to dig deep for a good hit, has a strong kill move that's unreliable to just fully connect, and has really tough competition for the role of "few openings, but explodes off said openings" character.
Tbf Ryu is even more unpopular, so he's not the factor here, is more about Terry and Kazuya.
And despite all this, I still stick to Ken.
Yes, shoryuken can fail at crucial moments. Yes, zoners are a brutally difficult matchup. And yes, there are probably better characters for damage per combo. But despite all that, I'll still stick to Ken.
That feeling you get when you get a good read or DI mixup and take a stock super early is incredibly satisfying and I will ride that high till the end of time if I have to.
@@equinox-XVI nice. I main Incineroar and I'm riding the high tide with him too.
(Tho I do co-main Ryu lol
@@equinox-XVI The good news is that Ken might be more fun in double battles than Ryu, because in double battles things are more unpredictable and Kens speed makes it easier for him to adapt.
@@equinox-XVIw
Crazy thing is Ken was one of my most wanted characters when Smash Ultimate was revealed. Then when he got announced I got super hyped! I was convinced he would be one of my mains for sure! Then the game came out and I sucked with him... so I vowed to practice and get good with him. But instead I constantly forget he's even in the game. Especially as the DLC fighters started rolling out and I was naturally better at playing as most of them than I am with Ken
Just here to complain. I both love and hate kens tatsu so much. I like how it can go through (select) projectiles and is his main burst option, especially because he can Kara cancel into it. But what annoys me to no end, is how if a character has a fast enough jab, in early to mid percents, they can just jab and act before Ken can after tatsu ends. Which makes absolutely no sense because this move is kens only burst option to close gaps against certain characters just to be punished for hitting your move.
I miss the old tatsu :(
At certain angles, I (Sheik), just crouch and it goes over me, it’s really unfair
@@firstlast-wg2on That's if you're not hit first.
That's kinda why I stopped playing him too
@@firstlast-wg2on I know I use zero suit and I fall out of ken’s up b so often
Can you do a video on the difference between mkleo and most of the player base including other pros.
Feels like he’s one of the only pros I see actually play this game and make it look like a fighting game. The way he plays with each of his characters is just pure fundamentals of fighting games. You don’t throw out moves unless they are actively advancing your play-state. He often doesn’t even go over the top with waiting for enemies moves because the fastest way to react is if you aren’t in the middle of another action.
This all sounds like obvious shit but if you look at tournaments you can even see the top 8 be filled with everyone throwing hail marries. It’s the reason why Leo will stay king, it’s also the reason why everyone will continue to get shit on by Steve.
Would be interesting to see an analysis of MKleos gameplay verses other pros who regularly top or win events.
Last game it was zero who embodied this playstyle but he did it by using characters with faster moves. Making it so the opponent would always be at a disadvantage if they tried going in as zero did.
This is common knowledge in fighting games but I see a lack of it shown in smash and it’s clones.
It’s definitely has something to do with some moves being lag less or having little end lag so people thing they are safe even when they whiff it. While yes you can act out faster but you can also get hit during the animation if they have any disjoint or they could take advantage of the game state you put yourself in by throwing out a move.
Well said bro
Maybe
What do you by people throwing hail marries? Also what are playstates?
This won’t stop me
Honestly, this video just made me think about Ken's position in the the tier list in his home games. I think his worse game was 2nd Impact, but this might be a close 2nd :D
As a primarily shoto main, I can say that terry and kazuya outclass ken and ryu in many ways, including being somewhat easier to play in most mus. The problem is is that there aren't many new shoto players, because everyone who wanted to play them already is. Most of the ryu and ken players I know in top level are the same names typically, but most of the newcomers play terry and kazuya.
Funny because in their on game kazuya and terry is much more harder to play than ryu and ken
@@ara-ara4377 Terry is easy in Smash but not Kazuya. I feel like that's the reason everyone isn't playing him. That and the fact that Steve is insanely free and has a similarly oppressive combo game so you have a bunch of random players on the world stage with him.
Meta be damned, I will never stop playing this character! Ken kicks ass and is still a blast to play three years into this game. Sure, he's got his fair share of bad matchups, but he's got plenty of good ones as well. He may not be solo-viable anymore, but he's still a great character to have in your toolkit. The meta in general has been evolving to where fewer and fewer characters are viable solo-mains anyway.
But that's only relevant for tourneys. I mostly just play casual for some good fun, and playing as Ken in Ultimate is still some of the most fun I've ever had with Smash.
Hell fucking yeah, Ken main forever
@@isaacyeon6334 Damn right, buddy.
Ken has super good mu's he can beat ROB for free
His good matchups are REAL good.@@kritovall
Ken used to be considered one of the best fighter characters to play as but he just gets outclassed by Ryu, Terry, and Kazuya these days. Riddles used to main Ken but once Terry (and later Kazuya) came out, he dropped Ken completely getting much better results with those two.
He's just Ken.
Dude! I discovered the channel very recently, so happy to see you’re still pumping this stuff out!
Great work as always! Would love to see Why No One Plays Banjo, as I recently came across one at a tournament and realized I hadn't seen more than a handful since his launch
Fighter characters almost entirely rely on their strength due to (usually) poor physics and recovery, and Ken just can't really compete with the stronger fighters as DLC and Patches have put him further and further behind
I played ken since launch. Terry feels easier for most of the match but I find it easier to get the stock with kens down tilt into his half circle forward roundhouse. I keep switching between ryu ken and Terry
Vendetta vs Goblin at glitch infinite was sort of the swan song of Ken.
Vendetta goes down 2-0 as Ken, switches to what was thought at the time the worst pick, Ryu, and wins the set.
That's when I knew things in the meta were changing
Very strange rare case of the “less powerful, faster character” actually being worse
I was always on Ryu's side. Ken had much better combos, but he falls apart incredibly at higher or awkward percents because his combo game and kill confirms are just predictable. Ryu is more about mind games anyway, and his kill options are a little more flexible. He has crazy ways of catching the opponent, and always excelled on pressure. One slip could very well mean a stock at 60%- which takes about 1-2 combos to get the opponent to.
I always supported Ryu over Ken as well. One of the common arguments people would make to me was "but Ken has crazy shield-break setups dude!". My reply was always "Well, Ryu has a single button that breaks shields WITHOUT a setup".
@@thegentlexylophone ... also Ken's shield break setups and punish combos are predictable and easy to escape or nullify lmao
@@SuperDarwinFAN😂😂😂😂 get good boy
Like you said, Ken having only two (or three) consistent killing moves is what also makes him (and Ryu) boring to watch usually. Ryu and Ken players only do the same combos over and over and kill with the same moves. Even Terry players tend to do same and thing over and over often. The thing I like about Kazuya is that he has so much variety compared to the other fgc and at least he's fun to watch (Even if challenging to fight).
Terry and especially Kazuya only have more kill options because they are DLC. Ryu and Ken's design balance in Smash Bros. 4 and Ultimate is flawed and needed rebalancing. While most of their mid to heavy normals do more damage on average than most other characters who aren't heavies, and the knockback of most normals is reduced to make some of their normals be able to combo so they have more combo options and opportunities for sizeable damage when they win neutral, at the same time, they have more normals that can't kill at good percentages than some other characters. So that's why they have to rely so much on their quick confirms which lead into their input Shoryukens for optimal lower percentage kills.
Ryu and Ken's design is a novelty at best when you also have characters like Luigi and Peach who have higher damage combos, some of which are potentially more deadly but don't suffer the knockback penalty on most of their normals.
Honestly I think that the biggest reason why Shotos/Kazuya/Terry don't see any play is that the players who would be interested in those characters are probably FGC heads, and instead of playing Smash they would rather just go play the game they come from. I know everytime I play Kazuya in Smash, all I can think about is how much I'd rather be playing Tekken.
same, i like ken and ryu in smash, but i’d rather actually play sf because they’re so much more fluid in their home series
That's honestly really true. Whenever I play Kazuya in smash, I feel obligated to play Tekken instead. It's easier in my opinion because not everyone is a tryhard in Tekken, unlike Smash.
(Written before watching)
I think they buffed Ryu too much which left Ken behind while Ryu just kept getting better and better. Ryu would already be better than Ken because neutral is more important than advantage, and Ryu is better with neutral. But the buffs to damage on Hadoukens for instance, and Ryu's more useful DSmash canceling and Kata Tatsu being an insanely burst kill option. Ken probably needed 1 or 2 good buffs to become good again
Most MU's in this game boil down to who can camp who out harder, so it's reasonable to understand why Ken is seeing so little play. Ryu at least has decent projectiles and functional burst options to fight camp meta.
The problem with ken and ryu will always be their static air movement. They cannot accelerate or slow down in the air at all. You don’t realize how bad it is until you main them, and it’s even worse for ken
I don't really have that much of a problem. Maybe because I've been implementing slingshot with Ryu, but that's just me. Lol
@4:12 is partially incorrect. Only a small few of Ken's moves are weaker in damage and / or knockback than Ryu's. Hadouken, Tatsu, fsmash, nair, and / or upair. But besides Hadouken which is generally considerably worse and not part of Ken's forte he can compensate with most of the others in a significant way as they prioritize speed and / or practicality.
IMO In Ultimate Ken is a little better than Ryu in most practical situations that come up in high level gameplay due to his better ground speed, pressure and tech chase potential, advantage state, and a few of his best kill options are more reliable. Ryu's much stronger projectile game amounts to little if nothing in neutral against a lot of the best characters in the game who have options to nullify the projectiles and / or move in quickly avoid the projectiles and punish due to how laggy they are. Ryu is a character who needs platforms to truly shine overall and for his projectile game to truly show it's utmost worth, but at the same time those very platforms can also give the opponent a easy way to avoid his projectiles.
People mainly don't use Ken as much because Terry is somewhat similar when it comes to his gameplan and while he may not be as fast and can't pressure shield as well he is more vesatile due to his variety of burst options, stronger projectiles, stronger offstage and edgeguarding, heavier so he can survive longer and has incredibly strong comeback potential with GO. Terry's DLC privilege and advantages mostly invalidates Ryu and Ken outside of fringe situations.
I say all of this as a Ryu main who prefers Ryu over Ken because of his character and because I find his playstyle more fun. Regardless great vid.
W
The summary to every "Why Does NO ONE Play [X Character] Anymore?" video is "Fighter Pass 2 came out."
Sephiroth is the outlier.
When smash first came out, I was excited to play 3 characters: Pichu, cause i'd never played melee and i like having fun with the "weaker" characters, Isabelle, and Ken. To this day, i still play all three and love each of them very much lol
I see it as this: the fighting game characters draw a specific playstyle and all of them specialize in one thing except Ken. Explosive combos are Kazuya, relative ease of use is Terry, and zoning is Ryu so what does Ken have that would draw anyone.
Ken has the ability to attract people unaware of his lack of specialization, attract those chasing after supposed high-powered high before you play Terry, or people deliberately wanting to go against the other three classical fighters.
This is almost definitely just a me thing but ken has always felt the most fast and fluid of the fg characters and that's why i like him so much
Kazuya & Terry happened which are DLC and thus nerfed less.
I think ken is played for the same reasons bayo and falcon are played funny combos and funnier cheese not saying their anywhere similar but they all want to get a early lead and use their good advantage
LOL I had to laugh at the footage playing in the background while talking about how the differences were traditional. I've played original SF2 Ryu vs Ken a billion times on the SNES and there wasn't a single difference between them yet lol
in SF 2 World Warrior,Ken 's kick throw has an extra roll while Ryu simply falls back on his kick throw
This video is the sad truth of why no one rushes any more
More blue blur! Im trying to roll around at the speed of sound. Ssssssssonic!
10:07 That little tantrum looked...weird.
I main ken. He is very combo heavy, but his combos are a must to be in the ball park with terry, kazuya, and ryu. I still think he is a great character, I think he should cause more guard breaks. His combos are so good when someone tries to shield you, but it surprising that it doesn't break the guard. A 3 hit combo with ryu can break a shield, but can barely do that with a 6 hit combo. Also, utilizing the parry make ken so good as well. His speed and combos punish great when you parry.
If you wana play Ken at a serious level and succeed you have to just be a REALLY good player. You’re choosing to make it hard on yourself when Ryu, Terry, Kaz are all sitting right there. Ken is sweet tho, salute
It’s so weird seeing an ad for HelloFresh, since I used to work for them lol!!
First Ken's wife leaves him, now this? _Sadge_ (I play Street fighter III lmao so I have some attachment to him even if I play Cloud (from day 1 btw) in this game)
I always thought of Ken as the Luigi of street fighter overshadowed by his Mario Counterpart aka Ryu.
I use Ken Sephiroth and Terry lately Kazuya. Ken with the darker skin tone always been my main since I’ve started playing that true Shoryuken never gets old
There aren’t many fist fighters I play in SmUsh simply due to reach limitation.
I guess you could say Ken wasn’t… Kenough
I still think the auto face mechanic was a giant nerf to ryu bc it makes back air a lot harder to hit with and that was always one of his best moves
Do you think you can do a video on Mario or Corrin? I personally would like to see why (maybe I don't know) everyone plays Mario my main or why no one plays my secondary Corrin.
People definitely play Mario, there just not a lot of ultra high level ones. Tho I mean Kurama and Wizzy still exist
@@illford don't forget zenyou, ludo, Nao and mistake.
@@ikaros6633 the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. Not Helping matters is that Nintendo Treehouse didn't do a good job with Localization. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.
As For Smash Corrin, most fans think that Corrin isn't very unique compared to Robin, who now as an inventory System.
There aren’t many fist fighters I play in SmUsh simply due to reach.
Is like a bizarro Street Fighter 4, in that game everybody and their mom played Ken, hell that was the game that made the Ken flowchart popular.
So hard to play Ken in an environment where Steve gets to hold up tilt and walk forward… why I switched to Terry lmao
Shoutouts to chains for putting his OWN kazuya ztd LMFAOOO
😎
As a day one solo Ken main, it’s really sad and unfortunate to watch this video, because you’re 100% correct. If FP2 never existed, then Ken MAYBE would’ve stood a chance in the meta today, but FP2 is very clearly pay2win, and the devs never bothered to fix Ken’s issues with his hitboxes and consistency. Playing Ken will always be fun for me no matter what, because I get to play Street Fighter, Marvel, AND Smash all in one game, but that’s exactly the problem. I have to play Street Fighter, Marvel, AND Smash to even have a chance to win
What does the meta look like if you disallow all the DLC characters?
Instead of finding out why about Ken i ended up hearing more about other fighters.
The only thing I fear of Ken is his Shoryuken. All strong hits, and for some reason is unpunishable if you too are in the air.
Love how kazuya is litteraly stepping on terry ! 3:20
To be fair, i loved ken and ryu for about 5 minutes. I need a way to turn off the button input special moves. I accidentally perform a special move way to often and cant even use them for fun.
What's the best way to learn all of a characters kill confirms
I am once again asking for the location of "why no one plays Lucas" video
Ken's multi-hit, combo game is actually true for Street Fighter as well, Ken's Hadoken is slower, his Tatsu does multiple hits but doesnt knock down, and Ken's Shoryuken is a 3 hit attack with a fire effect!
The best Street Fighter game Ultimate is simmilar to is Street Fighter 3: Third Strike where the top tiers are Chun-Li (a tactial footsies character) and Yun (Basically the Kazuya of the game with Genei-Jin), with other characters like Ken are still good but not as broken as the top two
Because people don't want to play Ken in a party game.
true. Real ken players play street fighter
The only exception for this really is if you like both smash bros and street fighter, not just one or the other at this point.
I thought the fact that people stopped playing inkling is wild to me
There was literally a Ken player at summit, and a top player named Vendetta places top 8 consistently in Coinbox with Ken...
titles kinda clickbait, he talks about why less ppl are playing Ken these days. He mentioned Vendetta and said that he switched to Kazuya as his main
Vid starts as 2:12
Hate when you click on a smaller channel and then get blasted by an ad that takes up 20% of the runtime.
He’s just orange Ryu and one of the worst ways to end the base rozter along with Incineroar.
I disagreed with two major points, both being that the meta is primarily bait and punish and zoning, the other was something about aerials being primarily more useful then grounded moves. For the latter, it depends on the character ig, but the former straight up just isn't true. I don't know why smashers need to be told this endlessly, but the top tiers do not define the meta or even the people who are winning. The meta in its entirety defines the meta and the meta even rn is determined entirely by a players versatility to do all three as quickly and potently as possible camping, mid-range/zoning and aggressive play with intuition mixed in there. Only time that isn't the case is if the the best character(s) in the game are overwhelmingly better then everyone else which smashers have been wrong on for not just this game, but the previous game too. Only true with brawl and don't forget it you whinners.
Anyway.
Ken: I feel like he is a product of the "I'd rather win then be the best with this character" mindset with a lot of people in the smash community. Its because he doesn't have a gap closer, because he's not kazuya 0-deathing people and because he can be inconsistent that people do not think he's that good. He's basically what I said about inkling, but a little worse because the ONLY person trying with Ken is Jahzzo and obviously Jahzzos fundies still need work, no offense. Unlike with inkling though, I have no ideas for optimizations, but its possible you just need to know the character inside out and really know what move is good when. He can definitly still be better then ryu, but he'll never be as good or as consistent as terry and kazuya and that is the part I do agree with.
Ken should have been a skin for Ryu and Chun Li added in place lol I know she'd be somewhat close to Sheik but with the FGC playstyle, her projectile, upside down tornado kick, etc she could have worked.
Would love to see a why no one mains MegaMan. He's been my main since smash 3DS.
awesome vid, love the "Mr mishima" joke. I still love the homie Ken. but this video is straight facts
The differences between Ryu and Ken should be how Pit and Dark Pit should be. One more with multi hits and the other with more powerful single hits.
You do realize Ryu and Ken are based off how they play in Street Fighter 2, right?
They play very differently.
Playing Ken is the only time I ever turn on smash meter
Poor guy man. Terry V Ken is what i wanted for so long
I actually forgot Ken was in this game lol
Steve mains broke the spirits of the final Ken mains
I watch this video up to 6:00 min mark and I was so lost with everything you said. I will never understand the mechanics of fighting games I just like smashing buttons and having fun
Even with the meta change most rushdown characters has still been high tier but many players play a bit more patient these days that's what you saying?
Truthfully, with the buffs and meta of Ryu right now, the only thing Ken has over Ryu is just his speed.
Nowadays, even Ken's awesome anti-air SRK can be replicated with Ryu's uair + SRK (although obviously much tougher).
Not only that, Ryu has the better nair and uair compared to Ken making him better for air to air conversions.
Don't get me wrong though, Ken's speed is still great in cases where Ryu's neutral isn't as effective (ie. MU where fireball isn't too effective). But yeah, Ken's usecase nowadays is very limited to specific use cases.
You should talk about Pokémon trainer it’s crazy how hard they fell off in player base after tweak dropped them
Missed a kill move, strong up tilt also kills
Im starting to wonder what characters do people play
It still baffles me that Sakurai gave Kazuya an invincible dash… what was he thinking…
Crouch dash is a necessity technique for Kazuya which allows him to do some of his key moves. But i didnt know that move was invincible in smash, in tekken its does not even high crush lol
The question is. "Has the addition of fighting game characters in smash led you to try fighting games"
Who ever thinks King K Rool is Lowtier they must not been using him well.
People stopped playing with Ken dolls. He's a doll dude
I didn't know sandstorm played ultimate
Got overshadowed by Ryu.
I have seen several Ken players in ultimate. Besides regular smash players use characters with tons of projectiles and just play to zone you, stay as far away from you as possible and take 0 risks, lately this has been getting worse and worse. Ken isn't this kind of character, you need to get close with Ken in order to make serious damage.
Getting serious Core-A-Gaming vibes from this video.
Judging by the title he probably made a risky twitter post that got him canceled
I didn't realize Ryu and Ken had actual differences; I thought they were like Marth and Lucina, almost identical apart from visuals
@Joshua Suh Nope lol. I imagine most people who play Smash Bros have never played Street Fighter
@Joshua Suh I don't follow competitive, so this video and your comment are the first I've heard of either of those things lol
I didn't even know those were a thing; sounds like fun!
@Joshua Suh I should probably mention that this is the first "competitive" Smash video I've watched in years, apart from all the Minecraft related ones lol. Just stumbled upon it in my recommended
Even their most basic of differences are obvious such as the multihitting moves
I'm a Ken main too, Also did you guys know that Terry and Ken are best friends when they both have different personalities.
Everybody else got buffed - Ken didn't
"and we are going to go into why noone plays ken" *shows Terry Gameplay instead*
Huh, they didn't give ken his alpha series QCB LP/MP/HP quick forward roll. This was always a good move to get under Highs and overheads so ken can hit his flaming shoryu or start up a combo. They also limited his Hadouken range. Which isn't accurate to the SF games but they did that to him in this game and all the hyper fighting versus games for baffling reasons. His Hadoukens already have less damage, cutting the range made him as useless in the hyper fighting games as old Dan. Pretty crappy version of Ken was implemented in smash. If they input his 3rd Strike or Street Fighter Alpha 2 versions he'd be firmly top tier for sure. Somebody on the smash dev team was sipping Haterade when they decide to incorporate ken in the game. Meanwhile they input the god tier version of Terry which is the one with DP input for rising tackle, unlimited range power wave, and power dunk as standard on top of his burning knuckle and crackshoot this is EX Terry from CvS1 millennium fight 2000. CvS1 Pro, released as an updated version of CvS1, Neuters EX Terry to be worse than his non EX version and a similar neutered Terry appears in CvS2. Terry's original CvS1 EX form and KoF 98 version were the strongest forms of Terry, he only became weaker afterwards.
Ken with a hat was introduce and overshadow ken
I like Ken, is like ryu but cooler cause of the fire powers or maybe because he is more clean and cooler, I dunno, I just feel like Ken is so godlike
I feel like this video could be said in one sentence. "Now that kazuya and terry exist, nobody wants to play the shotos because the dlc fighters are just op versions of ken and ryu"
That's not exactly true.
I think it's more rare to see Ryu's then Ken's