Voidfall and the Contentification of Board Games
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 พ.ย. 2023
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I've enjoyed NPI for years. The fan-made calculator app shown is mine (also a labor of love as I really enjoy this game). Despite it being part of a moment of mild criticism, I was overjoyed to see something I made show up in an NPI video. You folks made my day today. :)
Hey, I used it, it was very helpful and you did a great job.
Awesome to hear, thanks! Also appreciated both the positives and negatives in the video. I've previously described Voidfall as "Complex Scythe in Space" so the points resonated with me and the folks I play with. I will say, I actually love the various modes and content. The ability to play under various circumstances and different groups, and having lots of scenarios to explore, make me feel like I'll get my crowdfunding money's worth. Not every delivered project I backed has given me that feeling. But I appreciate the alternative view. Thanks for what you guys do!@@NoPunIncluded
Well yeah that's kinda the problem. People get excited about a kickstarter, so they drop several hundred bucks in there, so now they feel they need to "get their money's worth" instead of just getting a well designed and well tested game. Crowdfunding was supposed to be about helping projects that wouldn't otherwise happen, you weren't necessarily meant to get your money's worth out of it. Now it's a weird pre-order system where you can go "hey I like this $50 game of yours, here's $200 so make it four times bigger than it needed to be, thanks".
@@pajander Sure I see that too. But I very rarely back a project, and I limit my collection, so I’m glad for the variety. So far, I haven’t seen any evidence that Voidfall in particular is poorly tested. All the modes and content seem to be working well, at least in my estimation.
Very well said, especially since i expect most people that spend 200€ on a boardgame to not be into a limited collection, so it's probably mostly about just feeling that they got their moneys worth, not actually using all of it.
"I think most publishers by now feel the same way about all this extra cruft, they just see it as a necessity to survive in the crowdfunding environment. They need to content-iy their board games. They need to make it so that everyone will like this one game forever... until they buy another one... one week later."
Yes. Thank you.
Most honest comment ever.
Your take on complexity is so refreshing! Fabulously laid out! I am also now wanting to watch the multiverse show of you interacting with your neighbor while walking with your dog, where each new episode is a resulting outcome of the "how are you doing?" question. :) Keep being awesome!
This board game looks like it'll be a great videogame in about 2 years. The icons having rollover text would be just grand, as would skipping the hour of setup.
So Stellaris with extra cardboard?
Well, there's an official "tabletop simulator" version of Voidfall available as a workshop item
Thank you sooooo much for your interlude dedicated to complex games and their criticism!
Great review as always.
Complexity is a strange thing. Do downtime next!
Oh my, I do actually have thoughts and feelings about that.
Yeah tell people to take their turn faster.
@@NoPunIncludedplease share!
And THANK YOU too!!!
@@NoPunIncluded My problem with downtime as a criticism is that downtime is extremely subjective. I'm very tolerant of a lot of downtime if I am wrapped up in the drama anyway. But hey I get it. I know what I design.
Thanks for the review, I can feel the amount of hours spent on the game, learning the rules, making the script for the video and editing it!
You and your team are amazing
this review is a masterpiece of all boardgame reviews, covering exactly what matters the most
I think your point of 'contentification' is well made. Some board games now are so loaded with things to do that it can end up that only a subset of those activities end up being fun to play. But, that can vary based on play group, so realize that not all of a game's content suits any given playgroup. Good review, it contained the information I needed to determine if I want to purchase it. I would not turn down a play of it, if I had the time.
On the Scythe comparison, I've described Voidfall as like piloting your game of Scythe with a Gloomhaven hand of cards. It's not adding much more rule complexity, but it's adding that extra mental complexity of analyzing a large pool of potential action combinations and picking which pairs create the optimal result while still leaving you cards in your hand you want for later turns.
Contentification is an evolution of that ancient practice where a game works well with 3-5 players but they put "1-7 players" on the box. The problem with kickstarter seems to be (I don't partcipate in it so this is an outside perspective) is that in traditional publishing sales are more dependent on word of mouth. Most board gamers buy games because they've played it and want to own it or off a recommendation from a friend or a reviewer. So it is better for a game to be excellent in a single mode/player count etc than to be merely good in a lot of them
Setup time is so important when it comes to games. Some games I'm simply reluctant to play because I don't want to deal with the hassle of setting everything up
100% agreed. I enjoy playing Gloomhaven but I've played it maybe 4 times since it came out because by the time I've spent an hour setting it up I don't even want to play anymore.
@@cowgbaI totally understand that feeling. GH was a real pain in the ass to set up.
We started to use the app (called x-haven helper).
That gets rid of:
- monster cards
- monster abilities cards
- shuffling for monsters
- status tokens
- damage tokens
- initiave tracking
- element tracking
2nd biggest issue was the tiles. I started to keep them sorty by number in an empty shelv.
Now setup takes ~5min
@@cowgba Try Jaws of the Lion, the map book does a LOT of work to keep setup light.
@@cowgba I only have Jaws of the Lion but getting sorting inserts in the box to organise everything reduced the setup time from around 45 minutes to less than 5 minutes. Total game changer!
Soo many games I have set up then needed a break, and then moved on only to pack them up a week after once the dust starts to set in.
I was recommended this video today in youtube, I really like that you are not only focusing on the board game alone, as if it exists in a vacuum. Truly a good channel you have going on, immediately subscribing and looking forward to any new reviews you guys make.
Every video you make is just board gaming perfection. Thanks! This must have been a ton of work, but you really nailed it!
Just a big thank you for your great work! You have mastered the art of capturing the essence of a board game while putting it in a greater context and looking at it from a multitude of perspectives. Your reviews are informative, engaging, thought provoking and funny.
That's why I hit that button a long time ago and would hit it again any time.
Great video. What a relief to see those honest en thorough toughts about this game. !!
I enjoyed my plays of Voidfall. I _really_ appreciate the care taken in the packaging and documentation. Including having a separate detailed manual for how to use the inserts and what pieces go where.
you're one of the few game culture channels that I've hung onto while the others burn themselves out or rent themselves out as freelance marketers. willingness to say things like this is a big reason why. I like NPI the essay channel more than NPI the review channel (but I like both). keep it up!
there is a second channel? What is it called?
I actually liked this game, which was a shock as the week before we played this, we played Trickerion, which is also by Mindclash, and it was 4 hours of mind-numbing tedium. The theme in Voidfall was actually present! I felt it was nowhere near as heavy as advertised, but I come from a background of complex wargames like Star Fleet Battles and Central America, so I find a lot of heavy Euros are rated as heavier than they actually are. We played it in 4 hours, and only 1 of us knew how to play. I would play again, but am still glad I didn't but it!
This is the best board game review, and game review presentation I've seen in years. Extremely informative, great pacing, and FUN. I'll be back for sure!
Fantastic video. Thank you for the insights into the current board game scene which were aptly put but also the critique of the combat system is superb. I suppose because there isn't an intermediary result like lose only some of your ships, the combat doesn't allow for rushing on your decisions. But in my mind, that also gives a different type of tension in the form of "please don't go here, please don't go here, please don't go here". Not the actual combat provides the tension but the possibility of it.
Great video. This is the only boardgaming videos i watch for games i have no intention of buying , but to listen to the tangents 😊. I found that our group will usually play only one mode of a game, once we find a mode that works (usually the mode the game was initially designed for), so i can totally relate to the issue of contentification.
Thanks for sharing your great thoughts and reflections!
This was an incredibly insightful review! Thanks for your hard work on this!
Great review. Thank you for helping me to make better decisions on what I buy rather than the compulsion taking over. I find your views on contentification really interesting and it has made me look at why I buy games, what's important to me and do I really need all this stuff! Thank you. Keep up the great work.
I like it when games are confident in their vision; here is how you play, hope you like it. Don't ask me to try this module or that variant; finding the fun should not be offloaded onto the player, in my humble opinion.
Thanks for bringing up the combat. It's the whole reason I'm lukewarm on this game after a couple of plays.
I’m warming up to your style of reviews. You provide reviews at different depths, and the viewer, like a free diver, can decide if they can commit to go deeper into the darkness to see what is revealed or head back to the surface, hearing what they needed to make a decision. I find myself going into the abyss with you.
I recently released a review on this and came to similar conclusions but did not imagine a world in which this game existed for only one mode. Very interesting angle, I now wonder what it would have looked like if it had. I mention that is this game where just solo I would be buying, but at the same time what an amazing feat it was that these designers were able to accomplish this by adding the doom board. Now you leave me thirsting for a world of game design that did not worry about day one funding...thanks for this perspective.
Such good commentary on games and contentification. SO MUCH FLUFF these days... Thanks for the videos :)
I backed this, my main gripe initially was set up, it takes so long and packing it up. The iconography does get easier after a while to memorize but the book is definitely a go to. I'm currently painting the minis for this as got the galactic box which is enormous pretty much agree with everything u said. I'm happy I own it and will play it more
Great...i love the way the review just launched itself into itself... got me hooked from the first...well done😊
I love your tangents, they're consistently my favorite part of your videos.
A great review of one of my most favourite games. I’ve enjoyed all of the modes with different people at different times. I’m glad they spent the extra effort on building different modes - if it was only good for a group of 3-4 I might have missed out on a lot of fun
Thank you so much for this great review. Even though this isn't my jam (I didn't enjoy Scythe the once I played) I'm glad that there are people that do and also it's great to see the argument of complexity of board games vs what your taste are and trying to differentiate the two.
Absolutely nailed it 👏 Agree with everything said in this video, Voidfall is good, could have been great! Worth pointing out that it also takes a really enormous amount of table space (for a euro).
I really love that tangent and your take on tha "complexity issue"
I just stumbled over your channel while searching for content about Bone Wars.
I have to say, I really like your approach 😊
Thx for the informative insight into the game.
I guess I'll stick around. 👍
Really keen insights, which I hear from few others. Thanks for this.
You did a great job of conveying what this game is. Also agree on content being too much. I think 3 scenarios for each mode would have been generous and what I can reasonably play with most of the factions over years.
I really enjoyed the thrust of the point you make during "The Tangent"; especially the line about how a game has to appear as if it's the perfect game that you'll play forever, until a week for now until a new kickstarter drops that you buy thinking that that will be your True Forever Game.
I do appreciate games adding solo modes to extend accessibility, but I have to wonder how much we need board games to be "Legacy-ized", with a campaign to play through in the base box. Brass Birmingham, Agricola, etc are games you can and should play for the rest of your life and they don't need any of these bells and whistles.
great review - thanks! Your comparison with Scythe was exactly what I needed to evaluate the game for me (nah...) and my group (yeah!)
To be fair. I sold Scythe because I didn't like it solo and much more disliked it competitive. And each new expansion made me question the game more. But I enjoy Voidfall ... except for the setup time.
Entertaining and informative, as always!
"Scythe in space and twice as complicated"
Sold!
I backed this but haven't had the nerve to unpop the cardboard yet... your review has left me with a wee bit more confidence to give it a try. I do love TI4 POK, but after 20 games of that, there is still so much to learn and recall. I'll likely start with the solo versions to get familiar with the iconography before trying it with some friends. Thanks for the insightful review!
I actually really enjoy the combat. Even in competitive, the "complexity" isn't really that bad if you just understand the flow of how it works. I think having a background in tabletop war games helps because they have similar resolution flows. I do think that it actually flows very well with the rest of the game, in that you have hard choices you need to make. If you want to take that sector that has 2 sector defense and a carrier, you need to know what that's going to do before you even start building a fleet to take it on. That's just more of the massive decision space the game gives.
There isn't any complexity in combat. That's not his issue. His issue is that combat works via the machine of salvo resolutions so it's not worth seeing it unfold vs using the calculator. Furthermore, the deterministic nature of said combat eliminates all risk from the attacker meaning the defender is left with nothing anyways so why bother. Contrast with that with scythe where both players are bidding with combat power and cards and where multiple combats can happen in the same turn. With a system like that, both players need to make choices during combat which will actually matter.
@@brandonabrams6885 It's just a different way to approach the combat. By the time you get to attacking you shouldn't even need to run through the steps you already know what the result is gonna be. That means that the actual combat is taking place over multiple turns as players take actions to build up forces. the individual tech also makes a massive difference. I actually like it because combat doesn't have to be "even" or "fair", it's a strategic game where the combat is just a means to an end. Plenty of skirmish games out there where the combat is the focus of the game to scratch that itch for me.
Currently 9 minutes in, and the idea of a euro / engine builder masquerading as more of a grand strategy game reminds me very much of Scythe. Since I love Scythe, I may need to pick this one up! Time to finish watching the review before I consider that more though, lol.
Edit: Ha! Perhaps I should have finished the video before making this comment, since you made the exact same point in the video itself. Great review! I very much agree on the contentification of games (Scythe is another example of it with the Rise of Fenris campaign, despite my love of that campaign), and Voidfall itself looks like a very fun time.
Rise of fenris is designed as mini expansions masked as a campaign to freshen up the game. They force you to find new stratedies instead of using the bland old ones over and over.
Absolutely spot-on tangent. It's a blight!
Great review as ever. Thx!
This "our game does everything" point reminds me how I was selecting games for a weekender yesterday and could not trust the printed on the box player counts.
That was a great 16 minute review, thanks efka
This was a really good review. Great job guys, I´m not sure If I wanna get this game, but it looks so interesting to play
Another thing I think doesn't get talked about much is that complexity is a bit of a value proposition as well. The best games get a lot of strategic depth out of few rules (something like inis comes to mind), but realistically a more complex game is just usually going to offer you more replayability than something simple. For people who can bring stuff to the table frequently enough to wear some games out, then its something worth considering.
Scythe in space but twice as complicated. -woof. Appreciate the video essay! 😆
Very nice content you've created! Keep it up!
I think Voidfall is a really great game! I think you captured the overall concept of the game and summarized it very effectively (without going into rules details). And I also understand and accept the critiques you've made. It's not perfect and it's definitely not a rollicking space conquest if that's what people are looking for. It's a really deep action optimization euro puzzle with a space empire theme/setting. To me it really gives the feeling of managing a nascent space empire where you determine a strategy and tactically execute actions in order to build up your influence while facing potential threats from an alien presence and rival empires. I think it is a complete success at being the type of game the designers intended and is exactly what I expected it to be. Also, appreciate your review and analysis which I think was well thought out and can certainly resonate with. And yes, I watched all the way to the end! Cheers!
I'd been thinking about board game play complexity, I think there's 2 axis, complexity in deciding what to do and complexity in how to do it. Some games that try to make how to do an action easy, but deciding what you need the tough part. Take a deck builder, you just buy a card, but deciding on the cards to buy is the game. Or there's ones like GH that make the task (killing monsters) obvious, but finding the efficient route to do so is the puzzle. And then there's one's like Voidfall that are high on both axis - sandboxy enough deciding what you want to do is tough and then you also have to puzzle out how to do it.
Personally, I like the efficiency/how best to game the system type games, I like those puzzles. But, I know fewer people do and I think I get why: If you play a game where taking an action is simple, just pick the action/lay a tile/buy a card etc you're always getting to do something, even if oops, turns out you picked poorly. You got to play the game. When you play a game where how to do the action is a puzzle, you can get frustrated over and over by the game mechanics preventing you from doing what you want to do. You're stuck doing whatever it is that is allowed left to you. That's when people feel the game played them or the rules constantly got in the way.
“And if you ask me which if these I prefer, the answer is yes. I like board games. Period.”
I do agree on the combat being rough. We played one of the high conflict scenarios and several were flying all over taking over neutral hexes. But when it came to fighting each other...We'd look at the pile of ships we each had, stare at the combat chart for a few min trying to figure it out...then mostly give up and take another action or neutral hex. Like, we can sit here for 10min to figure out this combat to determine if I can get 12pts or I just take this quick action for 10pts. That said, it's too heavy a game to want dice roll combat, the determinism seems important, even for multiplayer. I'm not sure how to keep it both simple and fun. I tend to find pure 'each player loses cubes at equal rate' deterministic combat rather dull and of course upgrades are the big piece that throw wrenches into simple.
Enjoy your review as always mate thanks 😊
Occasionally I get half-frustrated, half-impressed watching No Pun Included videos because I'll have a half-formed thought in my head about board games, then I'll watch a video on this channel and see you saying exactly what I was thinking but in a much more comprehensive and clear way. Anyways, that happened twice in this video, with both the complexity and the too many modes/every game needing to be everything for everyone topics, so hooray.
The whole existential dread of unbounded decisions thing in the middle was one of the top asides in the history of board games
thanks for adding one more item to my list of arguments why to avoid crowdfunding! Great video
Very well done and entertaining.
Great review! I love the game for what it is, and I agree with you're tangent completely.
Hey, most board game channels just review the games, the mechanics, and stuff. You review the industry itself. That's a BIG diferential that you have. Congratulations!
One thing to note for competitive play and House balance - you are limited to a specific pool of Houses for each scenario. So when it comes to 'soundness' I think they've got that covered?
I liked this a lot, great opinions & thoughts !! , keep up the good work ;-)
seems extremely interesting and intriguing!
Nice review, on point
As a design-enthusiast, my head hurts just looking at your table..
Great points about complexity in games. I love complex games, but i don't like it when the massive amount of bits get in the way. The toys take away from the experience for me. I also love it when i can clearly see that a game is just not for me from a review. Keep up the good work!
I agree with most of this. Voidfall at its core is that complicated. I do think learning the iconography is a leap, but it's so well done that by the 2nd cycle, most people know what everything means. I actually think the "Weight" rating on BGG is far too high. The actions themselves are actually not really complex, and super straightforward to perform. The complexity comes in when considering the cascading effects of those actions. I think most big box Lacerda Games, including "The Gallerist" are harder than this, as is Root, which both rank much lower weight wise.
I only say this to say, don't let this video scare you away from the game. While it makes great points, Voidfall at its core is a FANTASTIC 4X game, and competes really well for the price/time allocated. Also, the downtime between turns operates as a great way to decide which actions you would like to do. Once you're a bit more familiar, the game plays in really reasonable times (Maybe 30-45 mins/player, maxing out at 3 hours depending which scenario and galactic events are in play.
I think more importantly, and something that wasn't covered, Mindclash packaged and presented this as more complicated than it is, which, for the consumer is a good thing, but for optics is a bad thing.
Love NPI and this video.
I think it's possible that content heavy board games aren't somehow worse just because they have more stuff, they aren't just "content for the sake of crowdfunding", they deliver a different kind of experience. There's a joy to be found in navigating assets, and exploring and discovering cryptic acorns hidden in the nooks and crannies. It's an incredibly rewarding part of play. ;)
Great review and super hilarious 👍
Whenever I see something designed by Ian, it's like yeah it's my type of game and it guarantee to be some fun of untanglin, great video!
We have it unopened on the shelf still. The conversation goes like this... "Do you want to open Voidfall?" "No, let's play Eclipse"
Great review but I was left wanting to know about the Corruption which I worked out were the flowery counters and are the art focus on the cover !
Great video! I completely agree with you.
Hey, just discovered you and i really like your work and your content, very informative and precise, thank you !
Concerning the game, i'm afraid as great as the game is i will pass, there is no way i could teach those rules to my friends...
And this is one of my main concern with the contentification, you could not expect that all of the players will be as motivated and excited as the owner... it becomes a chore to discover other players game and lead to less meeting... not really what i wanted with board games at first :p
Great game review. Again.
Love it. Thanks!
Trying to decide between Voidfall, Eclipse, and Fractal. When you said it's like Scythe in space weirdly for me that sold me. 🤷♂️
What an excellent video this is! I do love Voidfall and can agree with everything you said. Very much lauched at the Brainy Head. Also: Sinead O´Connor!
Stoked I backed this, and think this is a really fair review. For all the dunking on Eclipse (one of my all-time favorite games) from David Turczi though, I wonder how he feels about the combat system's reception.
Dreams of Contification!
Finally that Review is Baked!
Circumspect and precise. Well done Efka. As for massive tangent... NPI points once again to the truth. I agree with your opinion that content is a challenge that the Artists who build games must overcome so that we can have not just what our Machine overlords deem we should have but maybe what we as true game afficiandos truly deserve.
PS God rest Sinead!
... NPI video chops still Improving!
....Chuck Taylor's are mankind's greatest Shoe ever!!!
(And Hat)
Great review. Couldn't agree more on publishers and designers cramming way too much into games that don't need it, especially when you consider how much more expensive they become as a result. Voidfall looks great, but I'm definitely not interested in dropping $100 on a box that's trying to be 3-4 other games when I could just buy those 3-4 other games. If variety and personal choice is the goal here, I'm getting more of that by playing other games with their own themes, art styles, and mechanics anyway. It's like choosing between purchasing the ingredients you need to make a few nice meals for the week vs. buying a whole farm that could in theory provide all the food you'll need for the rest of your life.
You give me what I can only call intelligent whiplash. Can't wait to play this one 😂
Love your reviews
This was great. The comparison to Scythe got me thinking about the nature of just how good that base game of Scythe is, and then the Rise of Fenris introduced all of these variable elements that made it even better. I have to wonder if Scythe would have been as successful if it had been introduced with all of those variable elements like different ways to get stars. My guess is the initial base game would not have been as successful.
Does Voidfall have some sort of base game? Is there a way to have a basic setup and draft factions or something like that? Or are you always having to choose ahead of time what kind of game you want it to be?
The closest thing is probably the tutorial scenario, since it sets out specific events for each cycle and actually restricts the cards you have available to play each time.
Aside from the afore-mentioned tutorial, the core game has a list of scenarios (10 per player count for competitive) with their own setup and 4 recommended factions to choose from.
There is also an advanced variant intended for experienced players and/or tournament play, where you get the layout of one of those 10 maps, randomize the tech board and bid on 10 factions (the 4 remaining ones are unavailable due to how the game is structured, as their techs are part of the tech board). This adds some extra setup time if done by hand,. but the app can alleviate it by randomizing the tech board itself.
So, in short, there is a base game, but it's not that much shorter than the advanced variant.
I understand what you mean. I personally like a little easier and faster like recent releases Pirates of Maracaibo, Ticket to Ride Legacy, Faraway. But some people love Voidfall a lot.
Thanks for the commentary on modern board games. Lucky for you, it was together with a positive review, so people might spare you 😂.
That said, I agree that it's the (sad?) reality.
Well, it really was a positive review. Thank you for that!😁
Love the Sinead homage (not sure if it was meant that way but still)
If you like the glossary of this you would like dwellings of Eldervale. They have a great glossary too. I’d love to see you review that.
Best review for Voidfall! Agree with all Points
This is a great video. Again, I watch this to see what NPI thinks of Voidfall. I personally quite like Voidfall, it is a great puzzle of trying to do my best. Efka's tangent is super valid though, I have only played my big copy of Voidfall in the competitive mode. I personally do like the deterministic combat even in Competitive, but him pointing out that it makes more sense in coop makes sense to me as well. Coop might be a cool mode, but I haven't tried it yet because there is a lot more rules to it where I find that the competitive mode is just fine (even if I don't attack my opponents). The game is great and super interesting, but Efka did make me think, what if it was only the mode I like? Then I also fall for this going "What if I play the coop mode tomorrow and I love it?" I'm so weak and need help.
Anyone here tried "Lands of Galzyr"?
I have through my years played many a complex games with content enough to take over your entire living space, but in later times have realised that sometimes what I most want and need is some more straightforward ones with low set-up time and complexity.
"Lands of Galzyr" though really encapsulates all I want in a boardgame.
Fast to set-up and tear down, interesting but not too complex rules, and a wealth of gameplay along with replayability.
Would love to see a review for that one, really recommend it!
So pleased I didn't back thhis. I was quite excited till they mentioned the deterministic combat. Shortly after I saw a heavy cardboard playthrough. Half way through the rules explination I said, "no, time to move on".
Here I am now waiting for Arcs and I very pleased with my choice!
Arcs looks intensely good.
So glad they finally made the Aunty Donna Game!
I love this game, and I've never played competitive, only coop and solo. The special coop actions and the need to lift the lowest scoring player up over the void's target score (hello Uprising) make for a good time.