My main issue is with the editing: sometimes words are cut off. I can't always infer in real time what the word was, so I have to skip back. Example: 22:34 "banish"? (Now I know it's Spanish.) Otherwise, an interesting and enjoyable video!
i have gotten my wife that hate learning new games to play pandemic , TTReurope, azul and wingspan LOL, (thats also my go to games if we get friends over) i play ticket to ride with my 6y, but it more for fun to build tracks and she starting to to catch up the get cards to lay tracks thinking :) but think I need to buy TTR first journey to help her more
Good Video. I like the idea of separating Weight from Complexity. Being relatively new to the hobby I have often combined them which usually just makes things more confusing.
Thank you for the compliment and comment! Ya I find 'weight' to be a frustrating reference point, but while it's not perfect, it does provide a 'feeling' of what to expect.
Yes. Patchwork, being rather low weight, is typically described as a fun filler game. When its depth is greater than chess, basically Fischer Random chess turned up to 11.
Wow, great video. For me the “struggle” is trying to experience and enjoy more depth in games while trying not to overwhelm my gaming friends with complexity. Nice writing, keep with this good content.
This may be the best video related to board gaming I have ever seen. Incredible treatment of this super interesting topic. Tremendous writing and analysis!!
Neat video. And yeah it seemed weird that BGG has a “weight” category when it’s really an amalgam of multiple things, or at least depth and complexity. It’s why I struggled to figure out where to put chess on their scale.
Great video, I really appreciate the separation of complexity and depth. Also great job editing the video, it really made a 30+ min video really consumable.
Thank you for the compliment and comment! I was shocked that it was almost 40 minutes long after I was done recording lol, but I'm glad some editing helps!
This is the first BigPasti video I have watched and I was very impressed. I immediately subscribed. The definitions of Complexity, Depth and Weight were spot on and very well thought out. I’m interested to see what other topics he’s covered.
Great video! Well, I haven't played Twilight Imperium or "classic" Dune, but, from my experience: Lvl 0: Snakes and Ladders (not a game, just a nonsensical activity.) Lvl 1: The Game of Life (plays itself, but at least there are some points where players can make simple decisions.) Lvl 2 : Ticket to Ride (this is the point where player's decisions start to matter. There's some simple strategy involved, but the rules are pretty simple and straight forward.) Lvl 3: 7 Wonders (not so deep or complex, but there are different strategies to pursue and the symbols add some complexity.) Lvl 4: Lost Ruins of Arnak (there are more ways to achieve victory than in 7 Wonders and some interesting strategical/tactical choices, but in the end it's not complex to learn and not deep enough to keep more "serious" gamers engaged.) Lvl 5: Agricola (from this point forward I think we're on "gamers games" territory. The deepness on this one is somewhat high, and there's some complexity due to the symbols and hand management/optimization, but it's not that complex after a couple of plays.) (Dune Imperium, Puerto Rico and Brass are also good examples of this level.) Lvl 6: Race for the Galaxy (a pretty deep game due to all the posible card combinations and the variable phase order. It's certainly complex, due to the variety of symbols.) (Pax Pamir and Imperium: Classics/Legends/Horizons are also good examples of this level.) Lvl 7: Pax Renaissance (from this point forward I think we're in "games for weirdos" territory. This game has one of the most complex rulesets I've ever seen and ridiculous amounts of player interaction! All the cards present a wide range of possibilities and the path to victory is pretty darn obscure.) Lvl 8: Root +expansions (learning all that factions, all of which play a completely different game on their own... The most brutal learning curve, but the more rewarding one as time passes! I formed a Root exclusively playing group, that's what it takes to master this thing!) (Gaia Project and Spirit Island are also good examples of this level.) Lvl 9: Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization, with New Leaders and Wonders (so many rules and moving pieces, so many strategies to pursue, so deep and yet a fulfilling experience!) (John Company also fits perfectly in this category.) Lvl 10: High Frontier 4 All (this IS rocket science, literally speaking. So many rules, so brutally complex, specially with the addition all those moules... Insane!) Could you please make a second part of this video, maybe adding some of the games I mentioned? New subscriber, btw.
That was a great analysis. Thanks for defining the terms up front. I'm usually equating depth and complexity. Because being complicated doesn't mean something is complex and vice versa but with your definition up front I can wholeheartedly agree with your point. To explain a bit more. Complexity shoots through the roof if you have emergent board states. While being complicated means just having harder to learn rules. Look at chess and go. Chess is the more complicated game because it has more rules to learn. Go is much more complex because the board state is that much more variable. (Just think about how fast computers were better at chess than humans and how long it took them for go. That's because go is less complicated but more complex.
great analsys. well made video. I agree about 99% you said. I do think that you chose wrong taking Dune for Complexity 10. A lot of your reasoning is that many people play it diferently from one an other. By that logic monopoly would be complex. The rest of your argument IMO just describes the depth of Dune. the complexity is simmilar to Root just one levele higher. I would argue its easier for people that are deep in the hoby to start get into dune then root.
I'm with you on considering Dune with all expansions as the most complex. I have played my fair share of Eklund games, I can just read a lacerda game rulebook out loud for an hour to the misses and we just play. I even spent days solo playing GMT stuff like Mr.President, Labyrinth or the Coin series. But only managed 2 plays of Dune in 2019 with the GF9 basic rules and I am never getting a gaming group like that together again. If GF9 manages to put out some type of solo mode for it in their big box collectors edition they keep teasing, I get one more shot at playing it. Otherwise the game with all expansions will stay in my collection as the only unplayable game out of 600.
this was really well done. I appreciate your insights and agree with a lot of it. I personally enjoy playing Brass Birmingham, Dune Imperium, Spirit Island (I wonder where it would be - 9 or 10?), and Root. Again, very consumable video and I actually watched it all.
Have you found certain mechanics are more complex than others to teach. For example I had a way easier time explaining Cascadia or unknown planet than I did Camel Up. I think maybe it is because one involves a logical sequence of choice vs camel up is having to member which of the 5 things you can do on your turn each time.
applaud your effort to try and measure the game attributes. I do not think you will ever find two people that agree on any of it hehe. but I applaud your effort and explanation.
Dune is quite easy on the rules side, though. And for level 10 complexity I'll stick with High Frontier (which I really don't find painful, it's actually in my top 5 games of all times). Love feudum too.
Excellent and interesting video. But why no Lacerda or Eklund? Most Lacerda and Eklund are way more complex than Dune or Twilight Impérium from my POV.
Well, I created a "Root only" playing group. We've been playing exclusively Root for about a year and a half (60+ plays now). We're not doing board games like "normal people" would, that's for sure! 😂😂😂
Root is cutesy and you can usually convince someone to give it a try as a "normie". Once you break out the Gloomhaven box though, friends ask for something less heavier. Like literally heavier the box is like 10 pounds.
@@monoludico6166 Oh, it would be a **dream come true** to have a "Root only" playing group! I would like to also play the other Root-like games with this group, such as Arcs, Oath, John Company, etc… - but nothing else!!
Wait wait, Secret Hitler(6:24) is rated THAT low? But the metagame goes endlessly deep! wth! I also love the casual dunk on boardgamers at 9:20. Last remark edit: Where would you put Sidereal Confluence on this chart?
There is also a difference between being complicated and complex. I would see being complex and having a lot of depth being the same as opposed to being complicated
Great video. I really enjoyed it. I will comment that I see Root a little differently. Once you I got good at the game I no longer experienced "domino kingslaying". The more experienced players played to setup their win such that once they crossed the OMG threshold they couldn't be stopped. At that level the game becomes more diplomatic in that you are trying to incentivize and empower the factions that can best cripple your next rival. If you've done it right you have enough on the board and in your tableau that you can explode past 30. There are a couple of exceptions like the Eerie who don't explode well. For them you need to steam roll consistently to the point where no one can beat you to 30. I am not a huge fan of Root anymore, but I do think it is unfortunate that people think of it as whack-a-mole. It isn't that way in my experience.
Because there is no game if there are no rules! If you don’t value the rules, might as well play with GI Joes… the rules are the walls in which the game lives.
Dune a 10 in complexity? It's on the same level as Root. Dune Magic Realm is what you should consider as a 10. Incredibly complex (the current rules are 300 pages long and interaction between rules is expected), unintuitive to most players, and incredibly deep game play - one of the characters is even noncorporeal, and that doesn't require any rules changes - just the lack of any move or fight chits. And one game session involved a player killing a dragon and saving a princess by absorbing the dragon, traveling with the Princess to the Chapel, then cancelling the absorption and letting the Knights of the Order kill the dragon. None of that was specifically designed in the rules, but a player realized how to combine various mechanics to do it. Magic Realm is essentially the world's first open world MMORPG. As a board game. Created before PCs were common.
Gloomhaven is really not so complex. The problem is that it leans so much into card game mechanics. Which turns me off personally in a dungeon crawler. And if you not used to card games it seems a little hard to understand. But in general you need only 1 session to learn how to play it and how your character works.
Interesting take! Complexity - seems about right though I think there’s a massive range of games between your four and six and some keyword-soup campaign style board games that fly above Dune (and probably shouldnt be as complex as they are) The definition of depth I’m a little unsure of - it feels partial as it’s taken from the ‘get good’ principle of competitive depth. Not all depth is competitive - some esp in thematic games is depth that allows you to get more out of the game through getting deeper into it in ways other than plain old winning or losing. Depth in terms of constantly finding new strategies to follow and new choices doesn’t always mean that equates to a greater chance of victory but it will mean a deeper experience? Anyhow great stuff regardless :-)
To me, brass depth is about 5 in depth. 9 is way too high. The only strategic choice is that you must choose one of the three sellable industry tiles. Then there are tactical choices but not very deep since they are based on your cards. Compare this to say something like gaia project. Gaia project is a 10/10 in depth.
Played Twilight Emporium once; it felt like I was touching the sun. My hot take, games like that aren't meant to be mastered. I get the basics to run my class and lead a fictional nation for .... 18 hours!?!!
I got into board games somewhat recently and picked up Spirit Island because I like the premise and art. From what I’ve read, it’s a complex and deep game and I’m loving it! Where do you think it would land on this scale? I’m trying to gauge what I would be getting myself into with some of these, like Dune Imperium or Root.
I would be kinda curious to know where you would rank cards games like Arkham horror, any coop cards games or even tcgs... Because the difficulty of those games comes more from the diversity of deckbuilding possibilities than the sheers rules themselves ( even if they are not the easiest of all games at all, but there is way worse)... So, would you consider having to create a deck and the amount of options to do so as an addition of a game's depth ? Or more of an complexity that you need to go through before playing ? And does that make those game lvl 8 or 9 because of how wide they are ? Or pehaps more an lvl 6 - 7 because the ammount you need to know and master to purely play a game is not that high ?
I applaud the effort, this is a deep, and complex topic! I do think you are under-valuing the skill required in bluffing and deduction in games such as Skull, Secret Hitler etc. there is a reason top Poker players win more frequently in a game with such a high luck factor. Also, you didn’t address how complexity can also relate to high-AP-prone games, not just complexity of learning the rules.
Games for the “elderly”? You are joking, correct? Define “elderly”, otherwise,and let me know. I’m 62 (and play games across BGG levels from 1 through 4 regularly). When should I stop playing interesting games and switch to games “suitable” for my age?
I think your complexity scale is more like a scale of how much a gamer a person is for having played a certain game on your list. I think this is fair though I think I would've gone Dune Imperium, Brass, Gloom, Root, TI, Dune. I feel that the asymmetric games are the hardest ones to teach and potentially grasp as you're basically expecting people to have at least a weak handle on how the game needs to be played on a strategic level much more so than any med to heavy euro with standardized rules.
Very good video and a topic that should be discussed more. The only thing I vehemently disagree with is the depth of Twilight Imperium - it's a 7 at best (and closer to 5) and it's way lighter than Gloomhaven - Gloomhaven has a lot of depth, especially if you include the Battle goals. Twilight Imperium got replaced for me by Starcraft the board game that really has a depth of 9.
i like games that cheat in comlexity like Dominion and Betrayal at House on the hill because the have books worth of mechanics but you only learn them a little at a time
As someone who played Advanced Squad Leader and dabbles in A World at War, your levels of complexity and depth are a bit cute. Having said that, this was an excellent video for the casual gamer. No, casual isn’t correct. Some of these games are for more serious gamers, to be sure. Again, good video. There’s an annoying spelling mistake early on but the rest of the video more than makes up for it.
He did say that level ten was as complicated as a game could get without becoming a painful experience. The last time I played World at War my friend and I figured out how to mitigate some of the pain. We took vacation days and he rented a motel room for a few days. We never slept in the room. We just needed a dedicated space for a few days. Another fun game that maybe went beyond reasonable limits was Star Fleet Battles. One on one was fairly tame but running fleet actions with 6 people and managing the simultaneous movement where everything was moving at a different speed was pretty crazy.
Hey Friend, the updated version of the Dune rules are here. They are a big help so enjoy! boardgamegeek.com/filepage/196513/unofficial-revised-dune-rulebook-v23
TI is really not so complex. I think it’s only a problem for people who are not used to read a somewhat longer rule book and to games having a lot of phases. For example for someone coming from tabletop war games (like me) reading 20+ pages and playing games with turns broken down into many different phases it’s really not hard to learn.
@@gianfranco4789Lacerda games (and some of Uwe’s - particularly Feast for Odin) feel much more “indulgent” than particularly complex. They feel like they have no restraint. Think of a mechanic, add it. Never cut anything. Even if not as outright complex as other games, they feel more bloated and unapproachable.
Good video, and entertaining. But how do I say this? The higher levels on this are higher on from an American board gaming perspective. Maybe it has to do with your tastes, but this list would make sense as an American style game complexity list, but you don't even touch complexity from the European perspective. Many people experience the sensation when playing a Vital Lacerda game, being completely drowning in confusion the fist time playing one of his games until the being like 3/4 thourhg and finally understanding what is going on. There aren't battles or races or diplomacy happening, which is sort of what your list focuses on, but these types of games are truly complex.
Both fantastic games! If you don’t have Arnak’s expansions, I heavily recommend them both, or at least the first one. It dramatically improves an already quite good game.
Well... this video is going to blow up, so SO well edited! Solid script as well!
My main issue is with the editing: sometimes words are cut off. I can't always infer in real time what the word was, so I have to skip back. Example: 22:34 "banish"? (Now I know it's Spanish.)
Otherwise, an interesting and enjoyable video!
You did what had to be done.
Certainly, this was really well thought out
😂
Out of nowhere with the Concord burn. Love it!
I can't even play ticket to ride with my family. Not even Quirkle. I've given up trying to play a game with my mom and bro
Dorfromantik
i have gotten my wife that hate learning new games to play pandemic , TTReurope, azul and wingspan LOL, (thats also my go to games if we get friends over)
i play ticket to ride with my 6y, but it more for fun to build tracks and she starting to to catch up the get cards to lay tracks thinking :) but think I need to buy TTR first journey to help her more
Good Video. I like the idea of separating Weight from Complexity. Being relatively new to the hobby I have often combined them which usually just makes things more confusing.
Thank you for the compliment and comment! Ya I find 'weight' to be a frustrating reference point, but while it's not perfect, it does provide a 'feeling' of what to expect.
Yes. Patchwork, being rather low weight, is typically described as a fun filler game. When its depth is greater than chess, basically Fischer Random chess turned up to 11.
There’s a whole level of complexity that you missed. Look at any gmt game. Here I stand , virgin queen, triumph and tragedy to name a few.
Wow, great video. For me the “struggle” is trying to experience and enjoy more depth in games while trying not to overwhelm my gaming friends with complexity. Nice writing, keep with this good content.
That concord joke got me hahahahaha
The "multiple kallax harsh truth" hits really hard dude.
This may be the best video related to board gaming I have ever seen. Incredible treatment of this super interesting topic. Tremendous writing and analysis!!
Neat video. And yeah it seemed weird that BGG has a “weight” category when it’s really an amalgam of multiple things, or at least depth and complexity. It’s why I struggled to figure out where to put chess on their scale.
Basically 8 and above should just be a video game
Great video, I really appreciate the separation of complexity and depth. Also great job editing the video, it really made a 30+ min video really consumable.
Thank you for the compliment and comment! I was shocked that it was almost 40 minutes long after I was done recording lol, but I'm glad some editing helps!
Very nice writing. 🙏🙇
Indeed! Even more than the editing, it was the writing that impressed me about this video.
Excellent job! Thank you for writing a script ahead of time!
This is the first BigPasti video I have watched and I was very impressed. I immediately subscribed.
The definitions of Complexity, Depth and Weight were spot on and very well thought out.
I’m interested to see what other topics he’s covered.
I don't know why but your videos are so entertaining!
Concord took a stray round in a board game video
Cool video. This is helpful as a guide to evaluating depth and complexity
Great video!
Well, I haven't played Twilight Imperium or "classic" Dune, but, from my experience:
Lvl 0: Snakes and Ladders (not a game, just a nonsensical activity.)
Lvl 1: The Game of Life (plays itself, but at least there are some points where players can make simple decisions.)
Lvl 2 : Ticket to Ride (this is the point where player's decisions start to matter. There's some simple strategy involved, but the rules are pretty simple and straight forward.)
Lvl 3: 7 Wonders (not so deep or complex, but there are different strategies to pursue and the symbols add some complexity.)
Lvl 4: Lost Ruins of Arnak (there are more ways to achieve victory than in 7 Wonders and some interesting strategical/tactical choices, but in the end it's not complex to learn and not deep enough to keep more "serious" gamers engaged.)
Lvl 5: Agricola (from this point forward I think we're on "gamers games" territory. The deepness on this one is somewhat high, and there's some complexity due to the symbols and hand management/optimization, but it's not that complex after a couple of plays.) (Dune Imperium, Puerto Rico and Brass are also good examples of this level.)
Lvl 6: Race for the Galaxy (a pretty deep game due to all the posible card combinations and the variable phase order. It's certainly complex, due to the variety of symbols.) (Pax Pamir and Imperium: Classics/Legends/Horizons are also good examples of this level.)
Lvl 7: Pax Renaissance (from this point forward I think we're in "games for weirdos" territory. This game has one of the most complex rulesets I've ever seen and ridiculous amounts of player interaction! All the cards present a wide range of possibilities and the path to victory is pretty darn obscure.)
Lvl 8: Root +expansions (learning all that factions, all of which play a completely different game on their own... The most brutal learning curve, but the more rewarding one as time passes! I formed a Root exclusively playing group, that's what it takes to master this thing!) (Gaia Project and Spirit Island are also good examples of this level.)
Lvl 9: Through the Ages: A New Story of Civilization, with New Leaders and Wonders (so many rules and moving pieces, so many strategies to pursue, so deep and yet a fulfilling experience!) (John Company also fits perfectly in this category.)
Lvl 10: High Frontier 4 All (this IS rocket science, literally speaking. So many rules, so brutally complex, specially with the addition all those moules... Insane!)
Could you please make a second part of this video, maybe adding some of the games I mentioned?
New subscriber, btw.
Congratulations, you nailed a lot concepts that I am seeking to explain! I will write an article about it in portughese and give this as an reference!
it would be funny to add another metric: how many friends out of 10 would agree to play 😂
That was a great analysis. Thanks for defining the terms up front. I'm usually equating depth and complexity. Because being complicated doesn't mean something is complex and vice versa but with your definition up front I can wholeheartedly agree with your point.
To explain a bit more. Complexity shoots through the roof if you have emergent board states. While being complicated means just having harder to learn rules. Look at chess and go. Chess is the more complicated game because it has more rules to learn. Go is much more complex because the board state is that much more variable. (Just think about how fast computers were better at chess than humans and how long it took them for go. That's because go is less complicated but more complex.
Tenet without subtitles? Impossible!
OMG, you are FUNNY! But I can see people missing this because of your deadpan deliveries...
great analsys. well made video. I agree about 99% you said. I do think that you chose wrong taking Dune for Complexity 10. A lot of your reasoning is that many people play it diferently from one an other. By that logic monopoly would be complex. The rest of your argument IMO just describes the depth of Dune. the complexity is simmilar to Root just one levele higher. I would argue its easier for people that are deep in the hoby to start get into dune then root.
Great video!
I'm with you on considering Dune with all expansions as the most complex. I have played my fair share of Eklund games, I can just read a lacerda game rulebook out loud for an hour to the misses and we just play. I even spent days solo playing GMT stuff like Mr.President, Labyrinth or the Coin series.
But only managed 2 plays of Dune in 2019 with the GF9 basic rules and I am never getting a gaming group like that together again.
If GF9 manages to put out some type of solo mode for it in their big box collectors edition they keep teasing, I get one more shot at playing it. Otherwise the game with all expansions will stay in my collection as the only unplayable game out of 600.
this was really well done. I appreciate your insights and agree with a lot of it.
I personally enjoy playing Brass Birmingham, Dune Imperium, Spirit Island (I wonder where it would be - 9 or 10?), and Root.
Again, very consumable video and I actually watched it all.
I'd love to see a graph with more boardgame examples in your scale, and how the average compares to bgg weight
Have you found certain mechanics are more complex than others to teach. For example I had a way easier time explaining Cascadia or unknown planet than I did Camel Up. I think maybe it is because one involves a logical sequence of choice vs camel up is having to member which of the 5 things you can do on your turn each time.
Depends how you sell it and to who. Thematic? Formal Logic? Emotional? Political? Some people grasp somethings easier than others.
Excellent video! Sub'd. Now you just need to go through the BGG top 100 and give them all complexity & depth scores...
That was a really interesting watch. I would be interested to see a list if games which have lowish complexity (
applaud your effort to try and measure the game attributes. I do not think you will ever find two people that agree on any of it hehe. but I applaud your effort and explanation.
Great video. Feudum is enjoyable when you approach it as an open world exploration but has a high level of entry.
Dune is quite easy on the rules side, though.
And for level 10 complexity I'll stick with High Frontier (which I really don't find painful, it's actually in my top 5 games of all times). Love feudum too.
Excellent and interesting video. But why no Lacerda or Eklund? Most Lacerda and Eklund are way more complex than Dune or Twilight Impérium from my POV.
Great vid. What would u rate war of the Ring (with and without Expansions) on depth and complexity?
I'd be curious to hear what your general thoughts are on Splotter and Lacerda games.
9:46 I feel attacked for having unopened games on my Kallex 😂
So dang true my friend. So many options, so little time to play.
Root at level 7 is still at normal person levels? A normal person would have tapped out after catan.
An “ascended” normal person, let’s say. But still not a board game weirdo hahaha
Well, I created a "Root only" playing group. We've been playing exclusively Root for about a year and a half (60+ plays now). We're not doing board games like "normal people" would, that's for sure! 😂😂😂
Root is cutesy and you can usually convince someone to give it a try as a "normie". Once you break out the Gloomhaven box though, friends ask for something less heavier. Like literally heavier the box is like 10 pounds.
@@monoludico6166 Oh, it would be a **dream come true** to have a "Root only" playing group! I would like to also play the other Root-like games with this group, such as Arcs, Oath, John Company, etc… - but nothing else!!
@@FBracht that's exactly what I'm trying to do with that group 😁
Wait wait, Secret Hitler(6:24) is rated THAT low? But the metagame goes endlessly deep! wth!
I also love the casual dunk on boardgamers at 9:20.
Last remark edit: Where would you put Sidereal Confluence on this chart?
9:52 YOU’RE DESCRIBING ME RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!! :-
There is also a difference between being complicated and complex. I would see being complex and having a lot of depth being the same as opposed to being complicated
Great video. I really enjoyed it.
I will comment that I see Root a little differently. Once you I got good at the game I no longer experienced "domino kingslaying". The more experienced players played to setup their win such that once they crossed the OMG threshold they couldn't be stopped. At that level the game becomes more diplomatic in that you are trying to incentivize and empower the factions that can best cripple your next rival. If you've done it right you have enough on the board and in your tableau that you can explode past 30. There are a couple of exceptions like the Eerie who don't explode well. For them you need to steam roll consistently to the point where no one can beat you to 30. I am not a huge fan of Root anymore, but I do think it is unfortunate that people think of it as whack-a-mole. It isn't that way in my experience.
People get so hung up on playing Dune (or other complex games) according to "the rules". Just play ppl. Just play.
No magic the gathering tho eh
Because there is no game if there are no rules! If you don’t value the rules, might as well play with GI Joes… the rules are the walls in which the game lives.
Amazing video! The Concord roast was a nice touch lol
Dune a 10 in complexity? It's on the same level as Root. Dune
Magic Realm is what you should consider as a 10. Incredibly complex (the current rules are 300 pages long and interaction between rules is expected), unintuitive to most players, and incredibly deep game play - one of the characters is even noncorporeal, and that doesn't require any rules changes - just the lack of any move or fight chits.
And one game session involved a player killing a dragon and saving a princess by absorbing the dragon, traveling with the Princess to the Chapel, then cancelling the absorption and letting the Knights of the Order kill the dragon. None of that was specifically designed in the rules, but a player realized how to combine various mechanics to do it.
Magic Realm is essentially the world's first open world MMORPG. As a board game. Created before PCs were common.
Gloomhaven is really not so complex. The problem is that it leans so much into card game mechanics. Which turns me off personally in a dungeon crawler. And if you not used to card games it seems a little hard to understand. But in general you need only 1 session to learn how to play it and how your character works.
Interesting take! Complexity - seems about right though I think there’s a massive range of games between your four and six and some keyword-soup campaign style board games that fly above Dune (and probably shouldnt be as complex as they are)
The definition of depth I’m a little unsure of - it feels partial as it’s taken from the ‘get good’ principle of competitive depth. Not all depth is competitive - some esp in thematic games is depth that allows you to get more out of the game through getting deeper into it in ways other than plain old winning or losing. Depth in terms of constantly finding new strategies to follow and new choices doesn’t always mean that equates to a greater chance of victory but it will mean a deeper experience? Anyhow great stuff regardless :-)
Blood on the clock tower is depth at 9?! I subscribed just so I could unsubscribe?
Insanely good video.
To me, brass depth is about 5 in depth. 9 is way too high. The only strategic choice is that you must choose one of the three sellable industry tiles. Then there are tactical choices but not very deep since they are based on your cards. Compare this to say something like gaia project. Gaia project is a 10/10 in depth.
Played Twilight Emporium once; it felt like I was touching the sun.
My hot take, games like that aren't meant to be mastered. I get the basics to run my class and lead a fictional nation for .... 18 hours!?!!
Really cool and well done! You got a sub from me :)
I see Root I thumb up 👍
I got into board games somewhat recently and picked up Spirit Island because I like the premise and art. From what I’ve read, it’s a complex and deep game and I’m loving it! Where do you think it would land on this scale? I’m trying to gauge what I would be getting myself into with some of these, like Dune Imperium or Root.
Spirit Island is firmly a level 7 game
2:44 What about the Mogul scale??
TIL Classic Dune is our world's equivalent of Paisho.
Truly great games will have a low enough complexity to justify their depth
I would be kinda curious to know where you would rank cards games like Arkham horror, any coop cards games or even tcgs... Because the difficulty of those games comes more from the diversity of deckbuilding possibilities than the sheers rules themselves ( even if they are not the easiest of all games at all, but there is way worse)... So, would you consider having to create a deck and the amount of options to do so as an addition of a game's depth ? Or more of an complexity that you need to go through before playing ?
And does that make those game lvl 8 or 9 because of how wide they are ? Or pehaps more an lvl 6 - 7 because the ammount you need to know and master to purely play a game is not that high ?
I applaud the effort, this is a deep, and complex topic! I do think you are under-valuing the skill required in bluffing and deduction in games such as Skull, Secret Hitler etc. there is a reason top Poker players win more frequently in a game with such a high luck factor. Also, you didn’t address how complexity can also relate to high-AP-prone games, not just complexity of learning the rules.
Would love to hear what you think about the Lacerda games like On Mars.
Them jokes snuck in lol
Games for the “elderly”? You are joking, correct? Define “elderly”, otherwise,and let me know. I’m 62 (and play games across BGG levels from 1 through 4 regularly). When should I stop playing interesting games and switch to games “suitable” for my age?
I think your complexity scale is more like a scale of how much a gamer a person is for having played a certain game on your list. I think this is fair though I think I would've gone Dune Imperium, Brass, Gloom, Root, TI, Dune. I feel that the asymmetric games are the hardest ones to teach and potentially grasp as you're basically expecting people to have at least a weak handle on how the game needs to be played on a strategic level much more so than any med to heavy euro with standardized rules.
Root ❤
isnt resewrching best strats is just candylandiing ur game
Very good video and a topic that should be discussed more. The only thing I vehemently disagree with is the depth of Twilight Imperium - it's a 7 at best (and closer to 5) and it's way lighter than Gloomhaven - Gloomhaven has a lot of depth, especially if you include the Battle goals. Twilight Imperium got replaced for me by Starcraft the board game that really has a depth of 9.
i like games that cheat in comlexity like Dominion and Betrayal at House on the hill because the have books worth of mechanics but you only learn them a little at a time
I think should have been something like raiders of the North Sea between catan and blood on the clockwork.
As someone who played Advanced Squad Leader and dabbles in A World at War, your levels of complexity and depth are a bit cute.
Having said that, this was an excellent video for the casual gamer. No, casual isn’t correct. Some of these games are for more serious gamers, to be sure.
Again, good video. There’s an annoying spelling mistake early on but the rest of the video more than makes up for it.
He did say that level ten was as complicated as a game could get without becoming a painful experience.
The last time I played World at War my friend and I figured out how to mitigate some of the pain. We took vacation days and he rented a motel room for a few days. We never slept in the room. We just needed a dedicated space for a few days.
Another fun game that maybe went beyond reasonable limits was Star Fleet Battles. One on one was fairly tame but running fleet actions with 6 people and managing the simultaneous movement where everything was moving at a different speed was pretty crazy.
@@rontavers9915 Well said…totally agree.
Du you have other 10-10 games?
Great video, although I think something like high frontier 4 all would be higher on my list than Dune. Either way fun watch.
Where can I get a pdf of these improved rules for Dune?
Hey Friend, the updated version of the Dune rules are here. They are a big help so enjoy!
boardgamegeek.com/filepage/196513/unofficial-revised-dune-rulebook-v23
TI is really not so complex. I think it’s only a problem for people who are not used to read a somewhat longer rule book and to games having a lot of phases. For example for someone coming from tabletop war games (like me) reading 20+ pages and playing games with turns broken down into many different phases it’s really not hard to learn.
Out of curiousity, where does Cosmic Encounter belong in this gauge system of yours?
Where's Vital Lacerda's stuff? I"d say level 10...
Lacerda's are no more complex than Dune Imperium imo. At least the ones I've played, Kanban and Gallerist.
@@gianfranco4789Lacerda games (and some of Uwe’s - particularly Feast for Odin) feel much more “indulgent” than particularly complex. They feel like they have no restraint. Think of a mechanic, add it. Never cut anything. Even if not as outright complex as other games, they feel more bloated and unapproachable.
@@gianfranco4789 I guess me being intimidated... 😶
@@FBracht Agreed. I could have not explained it better!
What is the rating for Magic the Gathering?
Were would Tsukuyumi be on this list. I just got it, but I heard from others its really hard like Dune.
TI is a fairly simple game with a small rulebook compared to some eurogames.
Simpler than Kanban or Tiletum to say the least.
Good video, and entertaining. But how do I say this? The higher levels on this are higher on from an American board gaming perspective. Maybe it has to do with your tastes, but this list would make sense as an American style game complexity list, but you don't even touch complexity from the European perspective. Many people experience the sensation when playing a Vital Lacerda game, being completely drowning in confusion the fist time playing one of his games until the being like 3/4 thourhg and finally understanding what is going on. There aren't battles or races or diplomacy happening, which is sort of what your list focuses on, but these types of games are truly complex.
Vital Lacerta would like a word with you.
You got depth and width backwards my boy. The more things you can do the wider a game is. Twilight is the widest game. Has shallow depth as a result.
4:23 What happened to Level 1??
Don't throw shade on target games. I got arnak and root from target
Both fantastic games! If you don’t have Arnak’s expansions, I heavily recommend them both, or at least the first one. It dramatically improves an already quite good game.