Efka: "A certain adult niche activity with a four letter acronym. . ." Me: "LARPing." Efka: ". . . Where people agree to take part in an activity that is generally not desirable. . ." Me, a LARPer: "Yeah definitely LARPing"
Every followup sentence to describe the activity had me go "that also applies to LARPing... although you probably wouldn't explicitly call it 'pleasure' and most certainly wouldn't mean sexual pleasure. Unless that's the kind of LARP you're doing, I guess. ANYWAY--"
Love this format so much! Also, this absolutely reignited my passion for Blood on the Clocktower, so I popped over to their TH-cam channel - in their latest game (testing new scripts) the storyteller STOPPED THE GAME to make sure that someone who they had perceived as getting their feelings hurt, was really in a good spot to continue. Just backed up everything you were saying about the difference in games.
Another cool point is that they gave PDFs and tips/help so people could print and play, and not only left the online version up but eventually hired the guy who made it to work on an app.
Second only to the Gaming Historian's video about the origins of Tetris, this might be my all-time favorite "finally shedding the light on how a Russian thing became a worldwide phenomenon" video
Jumped on youtube for a break. As a graduate student who is studying how to design health promotion board games, I think I can clock this as an hour worked. I don't know what I was expecting, but the thorough research, cogent points, and knowledgeable guests were just absolutely awesome. I love these long-form video essays, Efka. I bet they take a long time to produce, but dang, I'm hooked!
I rarely buy board games anymore, so it is a testament to how good y'all's videos are that I drop everything to watch them. And they only keep getting better!
I think this video helped me figure out why BotC intrigued me when other Mafia-esque games didn't. In BotC everyone has an ability or knowledge that can be used, where the other ones I've encountered can be summed up as "You know nothing and all you can do is hope you help eliminate the right person."
There are iterations of Werewolf with 60ish roles... The problem is Ravensburger published a shitty version of Werewolf and cannibalized every possible profit for developers to improve on it. I play wherewolf, by Christian Zoli, but i am not sure it is published outside of Italy and Italian language.
Yeah, I've never played BotC but I've played the OG Maifa/Werewolf with just villagers and killers a few times in my life and I never found it very fun. It wasn't upsetting or anything, I'm not bothered by the concept of lying or being lied to, never had a group get so into in that people starting being manipulative or cruel to win and I'm not one who cares deeply about winning or losing a game. They were just always boring to me cause there was nothing to do and no real info to act on. If I'm the killer I'm basically just killing people at random hoping not to get singled out and if I'm a villager I honestly find it annoying that I have no real info to work on and am just hoping to get killed so I can be done.
I made my best friend cry when playing this game at Gen Con a few years back and I will never live that down. She is not a fan of social deduction games and I thought we were having fun and I was SO wrong.
I played the resistance on Sat with my husband and four of my former students (I’m a graduate school professor). I ended up having a 30-second hysteria meltdown after playing 5 games in a row without being a spy, and losing to the spies each time, and being wrong about who was a spy every time. I was laughing, but I was also crying, and I forced one of them to show me their card because I couldn’t take not knowing anymore. It was 30 seconds of insanity. One of my students felt the same… but after I stopped freaking out, we played one more time and finally the resistance won. It was… a lot.
@@daniellebackus819 I do genuinely feel so awful from what happened. It was like 11pm after a full day of socializing at the con and I think our brains were not prepared for a social deduction game. It's terrible too because I absolutely love these games but I don't have a great time if people are miserable.
@@olloplays I actually like them, too. But I will think about how I play them in the future… knowing they can mess with people’s heads so much. The game Efka reviewed looks super fun! I love hosting games, so I’m definitely interested in that one.
My recommendation is always Don't Mess With Cthulhu. The thing I enjoy about it in this context is that you don't have to be good at lying, in fact you don't even have to lie, to be able to enjoy the game. Because it's got a mechanic whereby players are hunting for cards (enough good cards wins the game for the good guys, a single bad card wins it for the cultists), if you are bad at lying and revealed early, it's still likely they may have to give control back to you because you have the cards they need. And you have another cultist out there too, who may also find it very useful to know your identity early. It fixes a lot of the issues my regular group at work were having with Resistance. The only downside for us was that it maxed out at 8 and often we'd have just a couple more than that.
This is an example of one of the perverse outcomes of intellectual property law: companies deliberately avoiding citing their inspirations, for fear of giving ammunition if that inspiration sues them.
I'm glad to see you articulate the main difference between Blood and Werewolf - in Blood the focus is on the mechanics and using logic as the main tool to 'solve' the puzzle. In Werewolf, (at least in games I prefer to play) the focus is on the social interaction, and puzzling/metagaming the roles is discouraged (again, this is not the case in every group but I'm speaking of games that I prefer to play/moderate). Yes, this means that Werewolf can be prone to bad social behavior, but the same is true of Blood and any large group game. They are two different experiences - one is about puzzling out roles/using strategies to suss out the situation and the other is more about the social dynamics of a group and using interpersonal skills to 'win' the game. I think Werewolf is more social of the two while Blood is more thinky and puzzley. I love the social experience of Werewolf and I'm not yet sure how I feel about Blood as it was initially pitched to me as Werewolf on steroids, but I don't think that description is accurate. It's a completely different experience. It's fun, but it doesn't scratch the same itch for me as Werewolf does.
I think that's somewhat fair to a certain extent that the games scratch different itches. However, the bad moon rising script in blood on the clocktower plays a lot more similarly to werewolf in that there's less info in the game so players end up relying heavily on social reads to solve it. So maybe you'd like that one the best!
Perhaps (I haven't played that script yet), but the design of the game with so many special roles and imperfect information seems to push the game towards the logic.puzzle territory where the social aspects take a backseat and serve mainly as an element to obsfucate if a player is providing truthful info or not.
@@DanLuxenberg My favorite thing about this game is that both can be true in a lot of scripts. I'm a very social player so I often ignore some of the mechanical info in favor of social reads. I know several of my friends also play this way while others like to world build using info. I'd say most, but not all, custom scripts people design tend to be as you say very puzzley with loads of information roles. But you could design yours to be low info similar to werewolf. Out of the three official scripts Sects and Violets is very info heavy, Bad Moon Rising is famous for almost no info and Trouble Brewing (the intro script) has a good mix of both.
This was a fantastic video. The history section was fascinating enough that I was disappointed when you moved on to talking about Blood on the Clocktower, but then that section finally managed to do what the SU&SD video way back when notably missed for me: explaining why it isn't just Werewolf (and explicitly acknowledging that fundamentally it actually is still just Werewolf). Great work NPI!
This is without question the best video you have made NPI! I REALLY appreciate the historical aspect of this episode and I would LOVE to see more videos like this. I don't know how many games would lend themselves to a history lesson quite this interesting, but if you made more historical content like this I am 100% here for it! Keep up the great work!
I love seeing a bunch of other creators in your Patreon supporters, it really demonstrates how well respected you are in the community and it's no surprise with incredible videos like this one. Also, as someone living in a city ruled by magpies, I'm happy to send photos of them of they are required.
I really love these longer videos that connect games to the greater world. Very enlightening. Thank you. I would have loved some comparisons to Diplomacy; a game wildly held to be a lying simulator but when you talk to the best players they always say that honesty wins games. Though that is what a liar would tell you.
This was a great video, the last time I played Salem I felt a little bit icky after playing it, it got fun parts, but still felt icky. Watching this I think I understand why. Loved the video essay part on Mafia/Werewolf, amazing and really insightful content.
Amazing work! The amount of research that went into this, the interview sections and the set dressing... all that really elevates this video. A very good job well done. Thank you for diving deep into this! It's been a subject of interest for me for a long time and I've never before seen such an in-depth video essay on it. Blood on the Clocktower doesn't seem like the kind of game I'd want to play often, but the Fables and Travellers roles really elevate it to something far beyond other games. The consideration of safety tools in board games (something in longer and greater use in tabletop RPGs) is nice to see.
Practicing psychologists and therapists often have this thing about being private people. I think part of it is due to the practice of the field needing them to appear as like blank slates. So part of that is not wanting their clients/patients to be able to google anything about them under their real name out side of the very basis. There is also a mildly famous therapist who wrote a blog under a pen-name that deleted it all when the New York Times tried to write a puff piece and threatened to use his real name for example.
Amazing work! I absolutely love your long form videos that dive deep into the historical and cultural context of a game. You’ve really created your own niche in this increasingly crowded space of board gaming TH-cam and to me are one of the only must watch channels in it. Once I’m not a broke ass student anymore I’d love to support you on your Patreon. Lots of love from Germany
Great work, very enjoyable and informative. One point that I think should be talked about is how Ravensburger published a bad version of Lupus and stifled the possibility for further development. There were iterations and modifications, but we just didn't get an advanced version of the same game, which has developed underground and has reached a form which is strongly similar to Blood on the Clock Tower, with 60ish roles, scenarios, possibilities for campaigns that take more games where the characters present in the game depends on what happened in the previous one etc etc etc Or at least, that's what I have found in Italy and in Italian, but I am pretty sure you can find something similar in English
I keep getting blown away by this channels content. There are dozens of creators who talk about video games with simular enthusiasm but hardly any that really dive into board games in a simular manner. I loved the Kanban EV video, Sleeping gods and now this one. learning origins and theory and design principle all make a 60 minute plus video just fly by. Keep it up guys!
I don’t know how you always make such incredible videos. I loved the poison scene so much. I’m a monster but it was HILARIOUS. Well done both of you. You have made me want to play this game :)
Wonderful video! Thank you for making all the research! I got my copy and I was worried from some of the reviews I saw in other channels. I am well aware each person will have a different experience and as such games are a hit or miss for each person individually, but hearing the positives as you shared them is encouraging. I look forward to hosting a game night with the large number of people that this game can handle, so it's nice to hear a different side to the experience this game can provide :)
Great content! IMO Social deduction is a practice of honesty rather than lying. If you avoid conflict at all costs, you open up room for dishonest actors to take advantage. That's the premise of the game. For the "good" team to win, they have to be a group of effective communicators that can listen, give benefit of the doubt, discuss evidence, and share information together. That's the best strategy to weed out the mafia. In fact, those who attempt to sensationalize and get angry are either the mafia (doing it to win), or bad players getting caught up in propaganda. So, I think these games are actually a practice of the most important skill for a healthy society: open discourse to find truth despite the imperfect information. Looking at the world today, sounds like we need a lot of that practice. It's totally fine to not like the genre, that's a matter of interest, but to dismiss it as "toxic" or "an opportunity to bully people" is shortsighted.
I agree with everything but your last paragraph which is pretty backwards. Playing it without hesitation is shortsighted. People will do what a game rewards them for doing, and in this case it's a real safety issue. Of course the answer isn't "no powertools", the answer is "use safety equipment". Which would come in the form of content warnings, and behaviour expectations, and safe words. Not kidding. Any time lying is permissible, safe words are potent for keeping things from going wildly off the rails. "Time out" is a good one.
@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice Agreed. I meant the game is not inherently toxic, but puts players under a specific kind of tension (as games should do). Safety warnings are a needed for anything that simulates tension for players.
I think your first paragraph explained why BotC is my favorite gaming experience ever. I like to work as a group, to hear everyone's perspective and compare world views. Thank you for such a huge insight.
My father passed away a month ago. I didn’t know what to do. I joined a local boardgame group and we had such a blast playing this game. I did already do that before watching this awesome video, yet it gives me a great insight into what this game really is. Thank you for the video and I look forward to playing this game many more times (I would also like to give a honourable mention to Werewolves in 1 day. Which doesnt totally fix this problem, but still is a blast to play).
Hey Efka and Elaine, 1st of all, great video. I was meant to get something done before lunchtime, but I could not pause and come back later, I had to watch it all the way through, if that is not a sign of quality, then what is? I mean sure, I love Blood on the Clocktower, and infamous game in a changing room is how I found out about No Pun Included a few years ago, and this year I am going to Tabletop Scotland, so there. I love the extra effort, I learned plenty of stuff I had no idea about, and I also understand why the game I love leaves some people so cold. So keep up the great work. All the best.
Definitely your new masterpiece alongside the Sleeping Gods video. Great dissection and love the focus on inclusive gameplay and keeping in mind that not everyone loves these types of games.
I thumbed up a bunch of comments, but let me just add my voice, amazing video. Love the new look and lighting, not to mention the level of research and time dedicated to this video. This is why I’m a Patreon.
This video is brilliant. One of the most thoughtful, well-researched board game critiques I have ever seen. Seriously, well done. I'll be watching many more of your videos in the future.
So cool getting some insight from Alan Gerding in here! He's got some really cool RPG content on the Tuesday Knight Games channel. Also, fantastic look at these deduction games. I had a lot of fun watching. Thanks!
I'm watching this on the trip back from Stockholm to Gotland and honestly. Bravo. I'll probably have more to say on the discord (if the damage to our home internet cables is fixed by tomorrow) but if not. From someone who studied and trained in this kind of stuff and still watches werewolf style games multiple times a week while painting, this is wonderful.
Thank you so much for these videos, NPI. The deep dive into the history, and implications of these games is fascinating and extremely helpful. As someone who is designing their first game, especially one that includes some social deduction elements that could turn sour, this video has been especially informative, and has me thinking about some changes to the rulebook.
Amazing video, really really amazing. These documentary-style videos go far beyond just a simple review and are always fascinating. Can’t imagine all the work that goes into these videos. Thanks!!
The industry owes you so much for continuing to push and prod the boundaries of board game criticism to grow the audience and deepen engagement. Well done. Funny and smart and deserving of the time.
Amazing work. Please please continue to make more of this type of long form content. This kind of well researched and exquisitely presented content is something that is truly lacking in the board gaming community and in the general community as well. I really can’t say enough how much I enjoyed this. Thanks for making it!
As a long time fan, very impressed as the quality of your journalism continues to improve every year. This is your best review yet. Bravo to NPI for being top of their game. No pun intended.
First off, what an incredible video, kudos to NPI. BotC is a game I will likely never play, because I don't know enough people who are into this kind of experience and have enough free time (and live locally), but it's such an obvious work of passion and it looks like something I would adore, so I have to console myself with experiencing it vicariously, so for that, I thank you. Efka, I did find it funny when you mentioned Ultimate Werewolf not attributing the original creator before going down a huge rabbit hole on the game's creation/creator and trying to imagine them squeezing all of that onto their page! For future editions, I suggest they just link to your video for the best explanation XD
Hey Efka, looking at how you setup your box you could do with watching our video on how to pack away your grimoire ;) The heavy duty spine of the lid should be connected to the back of the box to help provide more stability when using. Also your back of the box is upside down. But, i'm loving this style of content that dives deeper into the story and history. So much here i'd never heard of! and who knew the creator of Mafia is in Boston? i'd love to see them teach the game. How cool would that be?
Thank you for this great video! I've always struggled with understanding how people could enjoy the Mafia/Werewolf games because to me they reward going too "Dark Side". Understanding the background of its development totally explains things (I know a bit too much about the academic background you've cited). You did such a great review and explanation of BotC! I agree that clearly defining the roles, mechanics, and motivations helps make this feel more like a game that could be fun - it's something I'd be more willing to try (found you via Roll for Combat). Much appreciated!
Amazing video! Also led me to Andrew Plotkin’s Wikipedia page, which prompted me to watch the documentary he is in about interactive fiction, then download Frotz on my iPhone and play some Zork, which was published 8 years prior to my birth. Pretty cool way to spend my evening!
Ooh, if you've already found Frotz then I recommend looking up some of Plotkin's games! He has a few award-winning titles. My personal favorite is Spider and Web.
Excellent video, thank you for all the work you put into it. I absolutely cannot stand social deduction games, and yet BOTC is one of my favorite board games. It was very interesting to see not just your take on the game, but how you put your feelings on it into the broader context of social memes and group dynamics.
My main dislike of social deduction games isn't so much that there is emotional manipulation but that often that's the only tool to persuade people. I know you touched on this, but I wanted to separate it from the potential meanness/emotional manipulation in those games. And parsing that out, hopefully, might give people who normally don't like social deduction games (like me) a different way to think about BOTC to see if it might tickle their fancy. To do so, I want to talk about negotiation games. I love negotiation games especially when there's non-binding agreements and opportunities for betrayal. I have such great memories of Diplomacy (and would love to play it again but getting 6/7 people for a day is a little harder now than it was in high school.) In those games, the fun for me is finding those seemingly mutually beneficial deals and even going through with them to some degree or even suggesting actions that wouldn't directly affect me (i.e., attack the ally of someone I am in conflict with). Those alliances that form always have an undertone of impermanence. I try to make sure that I remind the people I engage with that these deals are not binding, even when they deal with me. But to be able to do that, there needs to be bargaining chips (which is why I think Diplomacy works so well. Every piece just having a strength value of 1 makes the board so easily readable even on first plays) I know social deduction games are different from negotiation games. And "bargaining chips" in a social deduction game doesn't seem to be an apt metaphor. But in social deduction games, I would argue, players deal in trust. And they trade in different amounts of information. But without a reason to do so, like gamified elements, it always just ends up being a completely rhetorical battle. And I had a hard time getting people to believe me regardless of whether I was a good 'ne or a bad 'ne. And once that happened, it wasn't really that fun. It felt like I played a game where my actions amounted to nothing even when I hadn't been eliminated. If that's your cup of tea, go for it. I don't want to yuck no one's yums. However, being me, a less socially adept or maybe less willing to engage in more emotionally manipulative strategies, it just didn't float my boat. So for me, when I heard about BOTC, because of how gamified it is, it does appeal to me more than other social deduction games and I hope to get a chance to play it soon enough; a friend of mine got a copy thankfully. From different playthroughs I've seen, there are definitely moments that if it were to happen to me it would suck the fun out of the game, so I don't think it fixes everything. But it does seem to temper my personal criticisms enough to want to try it.
Phenomenal video, NPI and Efka. I've narrated hundreds of Werewolf games for both adults and children and was thrilled to learn so much more about the origins and evolution of this mechanism. Would love to make a one-off donation for the great effort, humour, and economy of language that went into creating this. Please let me know if there's a preferred way to do that!
Fanatastic and entertaining video.Although I am not basically interested in party games, this has me interested to say the least. I even learned some things. Very well done and did loved the cameo roles by Elaine too.
Enjoyed every minute of this well made video, you guys are always insightful and interesting and I don't know why you don't have more subscribers than you do. Thank you for going the extra mile.
Wow - I loved learning the origin-story of this game! Students with unstructured time stuck in rooms? That's literally how I first learned Mafia. Myself and less than a dozen middle schoolers ended up with an unsupervised free period because the rest of our grade was in either choir or band, but the orchestra teacher didn't visit our school as often. No idea who already knew or taught us the game, but we'd use scraps of folded paper drawn from a pile to assign roles. We had so much fun sitting in a circle telling crazy murder stories about everyone who died off and sometimes play acting our deaths (The acting made being the murder victim more fun). Eventually someone must have blabbed or we got too loud and a teacher finally realized a bunch of pre-teens were play acting murder unsupervised... After that we had to go study quietly in the library on our free days, but those first few weeks of storytelling and backstabbing were thoroughly fun.
This was very good. The script was good, the editing and shot quality were great. Thank you for making it. That said, the opening shot has some terrible audio. This is only something I noticed because NPI's video quality has been consistently great, so it stood out.
Excellent video. I'll probably never play BOTC (my desire for social deduction pretty much tops out at The Resistance), but I gladly watched a whole hour of you talking about it!
Thank you so much for having me on the show. I loved every moment of it!
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, sorry people kept calling you an astronaut.
I didn't train all these years to NOT be called an astronaut. I thoroughly deserve it.
@@professorpsych Alen Gerding has always been a **flying** **astronaut**
Efka: "A certain adult niche activity with a four letter acronym. . ."
Me: "LARPing."
Efka: ". . . Where people agree to take part in an activity that is generally not desirable. . ."
Me, a LARPer: "Yeah definitely LARPing"
I had the exact same thought.
Every followup sentence to describe the activity had me go "that also applies to LARPing... although you probably wouldn't explicitly call it 'pleasure' and most certainly wouldn't mean sexual pleasure. Unless that's the kind of LARP you're doing, I guess. ANYWAY--"
Guilty of thinking about the one starting with B
@@luigiscazzari4724 BARPing?
Knew it was larping because ultimate frisbee doesn't fit into four letters
I absolutely love seeing NPI get more ambitious with the topics they cover. Some of the best boardgaming content I've seen!
Agreed. It helps them stand out as well which will likely help them to grow.
Thanks for getting Alan Gerding on here. He was my professor in college and I forgot how enjoyable and informative his classes were.
Love this format so much! Also, this absolutely reignited my passion for Blood on the Clocktower, so I popped over to their TH-cam channel - in their latest game (testing new scripts) the storyteller STOPPED THE GAME to make sure that someone who they had perceived as getting their feelings hurt, was really in a good spot to continue. Just backed up everything you were saying about the difference in games.
Another cool point is that they gave PDFs and tips/help so people could print and play, and not only left the online version up but eventually hired the guy who made it to work on an app.
Second only to the Gaming Historian's video about the origins of Tetris, this might be my all-time favorite "finally shedding the light on how a Russian thing became a worldwide phenomenon" video
Bro is just out here dropping feature length documentaries
Jumped on youtube for a break. As a graduate student who is studying how to design health promotion board games, I think I can clock this as an hour worked. I don't know what I was expecting, but the thorough research, cogent points, and knowledgeable guests were just absolutely awesome. I love these long-form video essays, Efka. I bet they take a long time to produce, but dang, I'm hooked!
I rarely buy board games anymore, so it is a testament to how good y'all's videos are that I drop everything to watch them. And they only keep getting better!
Lovely video!
I've run the game a bunch, but they extra research and details means I'm going to approach this a bit differently moving forward
I think this video helped me figure out why BotC intrigued me when other Mafia-esque games didn't. In BotC everyone has an ability or knowledge that can be used, where the other ones I've encountered can be summed up as "You know nothing and all you can do is hope you help eliminate the right person."
There are iterations of Werewolf with 60ish roles... The problem is Ravensburger published a shitty version of Werewolf and cannibalized every possible profit for developers to improve on it. I play wherewolf, by Christian Zoli, but i am not sure it is published outside of Italy and Italian language.
Yeah, I've never played BotC but I've played the OG Maifa/Werewolf with just villagers and killers a few times in my life and I never found it very fun. It wasn't upsetting or anything, I'm not bothered by the concept of lying or being lied to, never had a group get so into in that people starting being manipulative or cruel to win and I'm not one who cares deeply about winning or losing a game. They were just always boring to me cause there was nothing to do and no real info to act on. If I'm the killer I'm basically just killing people at random hoping not to get singled out and if I'm a villager I honestly find it annoying that I have no real info to work on and am just hoping to get killed so I can be done.
@@stefanopaolini1345capitalism wins again
I made my best friend cry when playing this game at Gen Con a few years back and I will never live that down. She is not a fan of social deduction games and I thought we were having fun and I was SO wrong.
Oh yes, this can happens all the time. It's hard to know if people are having fun when the game is all about lying
I played the resistance on Sat with my husband and four of my former students (I’m a graduate school professor). I ended up having a 30-second hysteria meltdown after playing 5 games in a row without being a spy, and losing to the spies each time, and being wrong about who was a spy every time. I was laughing, but I was also crying, and I forced one of them to show me their card because I couldn’t take not knowing anymore. It was 30 seconds of insanity. One of my students felt the same… but after I stopped freaking out, we played one more time and finally the resistance won. It was… a lot.
@@daniellebackus819 I do genuinely feel so awful from what happened. It was like 11pm after a full day of socializing at the con and I think our brains were not prepared for a social deduction game. It's terrible too because I absolutely love these games but I don't have a great time if people are miserable.
@@olloplays I actually like them, too. But I will think about how I play them in the future… knowing they can mess with people’s heads so much. The game Efka reviewed looks super fun! I love hosting games, so I’m definitely interested in that one.
My recommendation is always Don't Mess With Cthulhu. The thing I enjoy about it in this context is that you don't have to be good at lying, in fact you don't even have to lie, to be able to enjoy the game. Because it's got a mechanic whereby players are hunting for cards (enough good cards wins the game for the good guys, a single bad card wins it for the cultists), if you are bad at lying and revealed early, it's still likely they may have to give control back to you because you have the cards they need. And you have another cultist out there too, who may also find it very useful to know your identity early. It fixes a lot of the issues my regular group at work were having with Resistance. The only downside for us was that it maxed out at 8 and often we'd have just a couple more than that.
These reviews are getting longer and more comprehensive, and I'm entirely here for it!
This is an example of one of the perverse outcomes of intellectual property law: companies deliberately avoiding citing their inspirations, for fear of giving ammunition if that inspiration sues them.
I'm glad to see you articulate the main difference between Blood and Werewolf - in Blood the focus is on the mechanics and using logic as the main tool to 'solve' the puzzle. In Werewolf, (at least in games I prefer to play) the focus is on the social interaction, and puzzling/metagaming the roles is discouraged (again, this is not the case in every group but I'm speaking of games that I prefer to play/moderate). Yes, this means that Werewolf can be prone to bad social behavior, but the same is true of Blood and any large group game. They are two different experiences - one is about puzzling out roles/using strategies to suss out the situation and the other is more about the social dynamics of a group and using interpersonal skills to 'win' the game. I think Werewolf is more social of the two while Blood is more thinky and puzzley. I love the social experience of Werewolf and I'm not yet sure how I feel about Blood as it was initially pitched to me as Werewolf on steroids, but I don't think that description is accurate. It's a completely different experience. It's fun, but it doesn't scratch the same itch for me as Werewolf does.
I think that's somewhat fair to a certain extent that the games scratch different itches.
However, the bad moon rising script in blood on the clocktower plays a lot more similarly to werewolf in that there's less info in the game so players end up relying heavily on social reads to solve it.
So maybe you'd like that one the best!
Perhaps (I haven't played that script yet), but the design of the game with so many special roles and imperfect information seems to push the game towards the logic.puzzle territory where the social aspects take a backseat and serve mainly as an element to obsfucate if a player is providing truthful info or not.
@@DanLuxenberg My favorite thing about this game is that both can be true in a lot of scripts. I'm a very social player so I often ignore some of the mechanical info in favor of social reads.
I know several of my friends also play this way while others like to world build using info.
I'd say most, but not all, custom scripts people design tend to be as you say very puzzley with loads of information roles. But you could design yours to be low info similar to werewolf.
Out of the three official scripts Sects and Violets is very info heavy, Bad Moon Rising is famous for almost no info and Trouble Brewing (the intro script) has a good mix of both.
This was a fantastic video. The history section was fascinating enough that I was disappointed when you moved on to talking about Blood on the Clocktower, but then that section finally managed to do what the SU&SD video way back when notably missed for me: explaining why it isn't just Werewolf (and explicitly acknowledging that fundamentally it actually is still just Werewolf). Great work NPI!
This is without question the best video you have made NPI! I REALLY appreciate the historical aspect of this episode and I would LOVE to see more videos like this. I don't know how many games would lend themselves to a history lesson quite this interesting, but if you made more historical content like this I am 100% here for it! Keep up the great work!
I love seeing a bunch of other creators in your Patreon supporters, it really demonstrates how well respected you are in the community and it's no surprise with incredible videos like this one. Also, as someone living in a city ruled by magpies, I'm happy to send photos of them of they are required.
I really love these longer videos that connect games to the greater world. Very enlightening. Thank you.
I would have loved some comparisons to Diplomacy; a game wildly held to be a lying simulator but when you talk to the best players they always say that honesty wins games.
Though that is what a liar would tell you.
Efka and Elaine, this video was comprehensive and fantastic. Well done. One of the best game-review videos on the internet. Thank you
This was a great video, the last time I played Salem I felt a little bit icky after playing it, it got fun parts, but still felt icky. Watching this I think I understand why.
Loved the video essay part on Mafia/Werewolf, amazing and really insightful content.
Amazing work! The amount of research that went into this, the interview sections and the set dressing... all that really elevates this video. A very good job well done. Thank you for diving deep into this! It's been a subject of interest for me for a long time and I've never before seen such an in-depth video essay on it.
Blood on the Clocktower doesn't seem like the kind of game I'd want to play often, but the Fables and Travellers roles really elevate it to something far beyond other games. The consideration of safety tools in board games (something in longer and greater use in tabletop RPGs) is nice to see.
Practicing psychologists and therapists often have this thing about being private people. I think part of it is due to the practice of the field needing them to appear as like blank slates. So part of that is not wanting their clients/patients to be able to google anything about them under their real name out side of the very basis. There is also a mildly famous therapist who wrote a blog under a pen-name that deleted it all when the New York Times tried to write a puff piece and threatened to use his real name for example.
Thank you for taking the time to create this. Truly incredible work 🙂
This was fantastic. And honestly, your channel is one of the best on TH-cam!
Amazing work! I absolutely love your long form videos that dive deep into the historical and cultural context of a game. You’ve really created your own niche in this increasingly crowded space of board gaming TH-cam and to me are one of the only must watch channels in it. Once I’m not a broke ass student anymore I’d love to support you on your Patreon. Lots of love from Germany
Great work, very enjoyable and informative.
One point that I think should be talked about is how Ravensburger published a bad version of Lupus and stifled the possibility for further development. There were iterations and modifications, but we just didn't get an advanced version of the same game, which has developed underground and has reached a form which is strongly similar to Blood on the Clock Tower, with 60ish roles, scenarios, possibilities for campaigns that take more games where the characters present in the game depends on what happened in the previous one etc etc etc
Or at least, that's what I have found in Italy and in Italian, but I am pretty sure you can find something similar in English
I keep getting blown away by this channels content. There are dozens of creators who talk about video games with simular enthusiasm but hardly any that really dive into board games in a simular manner. I loved the Kanban EV video, Sleeping gods and now this one. learning origins and theory and design principle all make a 60 minute plus video just fly by. Keep it up guys!
what a great video, absolutely appreciate all the care that went into it, love it even more that it has me thinking about safety in games
I don’t know how you always make such incredible videos. I loved the poison scene so much. I’m a monster but it was HILARIOUS. Well done both of you. You have made me want to play this game :)
Thank you Sam, that's very kind of you to say.
Wonderful video! Thank you for making all the research!
I got my copy and I was worried from some of the reviews I saw in other channels.
I am well aware each person will have a different experience and as such games are a hit or miss for each person individually, but hearing the positives as you shared them is encouraging.
I look forward to hosting a game night with the large number of people that this game can handle, so it's nice to hear a different side to the experience this game can provide :)
Great content! IMO Social deduction is a practice of honesty rather than lying. If you avoid conflict at all costs, you open up room for dishonest actors to take advantage. That's the premise of the game. For the "good" team to win, they have to be a group of effective communicators that can listen, give benefit of the doubt, discuss evidence, and share information together. That's the best strategy to weed out the mafia. In fact, those who attempt to sensationalize and get angry are either the mafia (doing it to win), or bad players getting caught up in propaganda.
So, I think these games are actually a practice of the most important skill for a healthy society: open discourse to find truth despite the imperfect information. Looking at the world today, sounds like we need a lot of that practice.
It's totally fine to not like the genre, that's a matter of interest, but to dismiss it as "toxic" or "an opportunity to bully people" is shortsighted.
I agree with everything but your last paragraph which is pretty backwards. Playing it without hesitation is shortsighted. People will do what a game rewards them for doing, and in this case it's a real safety issue. Of course the answer isn't "no powertools", the answer is "use safety equipment". Which would come in the form of content warnings, and behaviour expectations, and safe words. Not kidding. Any time lying is permissible, safe words are potent for keeping things from going wildly off the rails. "Time out" is a good one.
@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice Agreed. I meant the game is not inherently toxic, but puts players under a specific kind of tension (as games should do). Safety warnings are a needed for anything that simulates tension for players.
I think your first paragraph explained why BotC is my favorite gaming experience ever. I like to work as a group, to hear everyone's perspective and compare world views.
Thank you for such a huge insight.
i love these documentary style videos you guys do.
My father passed away a month ago. I didn’t know what to do. I joined a local boardgame group and we had such a blast playing this game. I did already do that before watching this awesome video, yet it gives me a great insight into what this game really is. Thank you for the video and I look forward to playing this game many more times (I would also like to give a honourable mention to Werewolves in 1 day. Which doesnt totally fix this problem, but still is a blast to play).
Hey Efka and Elaine,
1st of all, great video. I was meant to get something done before lunchtime, but I could not pause and come back later, I had to watch it all the way through, if that is not a sign of quality, then what is? I mean sure, I love Blood on the Clocktower, and infamous game in a changing room is how I found out about No Pun Included a few years ago, and this year I am going to Tabletop Scotland, so there.
I love the extra effort, I learned plenty of stuff I had no idea about, and I also understand why the game I love leaves some people so cold.
So keep up the great work. All the best.
Blood on the Clocktower eclipsed any more than 6 players deduction game in my group. Its just too good.
Definitely your new masterpiece alongside the Sleeping Gods video. Great dissection and love the focus on inclusive gameplay and keeping in mind that not everyone loves these types of games.
Oh my gosh, you interviewed Andrew Plotkin! AND he created the Werewolf version?! 🤯
I love it when worlds come together.
I thumbed up a bunch of comments, but let me just add my voice, amazing video. Love the new look and lighting, not to mention the level of research and time dedicated to this video. This is why I’m a Patreon.
This video is brilliant. One of the most thoughtful, well-researched board game critiques I have ever seen. Seriously, well done. I'll be watching many more of your videos in the future.
This video was amazing. I came for a game review and went away with a documentary on a whole genre of games. Amazing. Great work.
So cool getting some insight from Alan Gerding in here! He's got some really cool RPG content on the Tuesday Knight Games channel.
Also, fantastic look at these deduction games. I had a lot of fun watching. Thanks!
This is one of the best board game videos on the internet
I'm watching this on the trip back from Stockholm to Gotland and honestly. Bravo. I'll probably have more to say on the discord (if the damage to our home internet cables is fixed by tomorrow) but if not. From someone who studied and trained in this kind of stuff and still watches werewolf style games multiple times a week while painting, this is wonderful.
Thank you so much for these videos, NPI. The deep dive into the history, and implications of these games is fascinating and extremely helpful. As someone who is designing their first game, especially one that includes some social deduction elements that could turn sour, this video has been especially informative, and has me thinking about some changes to the rulebook.
Amazing video, really really amazing. These documentary-style videos go far beyond just a simple review and are always fascinating. Can’t imagine all the work that goes into these videos. Thanks!!
The industry owes you so much for continuing to push and prod the boundaries of board game criticism to grow the audience and deepen engagement.
Well done. Funny and smart and deserving of the time.
I’m not a huge board game player but this was a delight from beginning to end.
Amazing work. Please please continue to make more of this type of long form content. This kind of well researched and exquisitely presented content is something that is truly lacking in the board gaming community and in the general community as well. I really can’t say enough how much I enjoyed this. Thanks for making it!
As a long time fan, very impressed as the quality of your journalism continues to improve every year. This is your best review yet. Bravo to NPI for being top of their game.
No pun intended.
Some videos I want to like more than once, excellent! I love these longer half documentary/half review vids!
What an absolutely fantastic video! It was very compelling and I was engaged the whole time. Well done!
First off, what an incredible video, kudos to NPI. BotC is a game I will likely never play, because I don't know enough people who are into this kind of experience and have enough free time (and live locally), but it's such an obvious work of passion and it looks like something I would adore, so I have to console myself with experiencing it vicariously, so for that, I thank you.
Efka, I did find it funny when you mentioned Ultimate Werewolf not attributing the original creator before going down a huge rabbit hole on the game's creation/creator and trying to imagine them squeezing all of that onto their page! For future editions, I suggest they just link to your video for the best explanation XD
Non Pun Included has gone a long way to establish themselves as the boardgame doco pros. Props for this level of dedication.
Wow! So much work put into this game and a very well informed conversation. I think this is my favorite NPI video yet.
bloody excellent, the quality of your work just keeps getting better
Truly a great video. Many thanks for making my Saturday morning so enjoyable!
Hey Efka, looking at how you setup your box you could do with watching our video on how to pack away your grimoire ;)
The heavy duty spine of the lid should be connected to the back of the box to help provide more stability when using.
Also your back of the box is upside down.
But, i'm loving this style of content that dives deeper into the story and history. So much here i'd never heard of! and who knew the creator of Mafia is in Boston? i'd love to see them teach the game. How cool would that be?
Omg is that the real Off Meta?
Really?
One of the best NPI to date. I think I would love more content talking about the history of games and their iterations.
Such a fantastic overview of the game! I’m sold on the game and definitely gonna check out the Patreon.
Keep putting out these great deep dives. I absolutely loved the care that went into this.
Thank you for this great video! I've always struggled with understanding how people could enjoy the Mafia/Werewolf games because to me they reward going too "Dark Side". Understanding the background of its development totally explains things (I know a bit too much about the academic background you've cited).
You did such a great review and explanation of BotC! I agree that clearly defining the roles, mechanics, and motivations helps make this feel more like a game that could be fun - it's something I'd be more willing to try (found you via Roll for Combat). Much appreciated!
Great video! I really appreciate more ambitious topics/videos. Fantastic work. Keep it up!
Incredible video! Thanks for making this.
An amazing interesting well documented discussion. Thank you. Learned tons. Well done.
Wow! I was not ready for this video XD
Okay this was an awesome video. Fantastic job!
Amazing video! Also led me to Andrew Plotkin’s Wikipedia page, which prompted me to watch the documentary he is in about interactive fiction, then download Frotz on my iPhone and play some Zork, which was published 8 years prior to my birth. Pretty cool way to spend my evening!
Ooh, if you've already found Frotz then I recommend looking up some of Plotkin's games! He has a few award-winning titles. My personal favorite is Spider and Web.
@@beezany thanks for the recommendations!
Excellent video, thank you for all the work you put into it. I absolutely cannot stand social deduction games, and yet BOTC is one of my favorite board games. It was very interesting to see not just your take on the game, but how you put your feelings on it into the broader context of social memes and group dynamics.
Really well done! Your efforts are greatly appreciated. Saving this to show to my group when my copy finally arrives!
Thank you, you've really poured everything you've got into this one.
One Night Werewolf is played at every bachelor party, wedding, and family event for me. Loved by all. I underrated this game for years!
Awesome video and review , thanks team! informative, varied, funny, keep it up!!!
Wow! That was an amazing video! Thanks so much for the hard work.
The cup of tea sold me. Subscribed.
This was super fun AND interesting! Also, I caved and ordered the bloody game. I partially blame you lol
My main dislike of social deduction games isn't so much that there is emotional manipulation but that often that's the only tool to persuade people. I know you touched on this, but I wanted to separate it from the potential meanness/emotional manipulation in those games. And parsing that out, hopefully, might give people who normally don't like social deduction games (like me) a different way to think about BOTC to see if it might tickle their fancy.
To do so, I want to talk about negotiation games. I love negotiation games especially when there's non-binding agreements and opportunities for betrayal. I have such great memories of Diplomacy (and would love to play it again but getting 6/7 people for a day is a little harder now than it was in high school.) In those games, the fun for me is finding those seemingly mutually beneficial deals and even going through with them to some degree or even suggesting actions that wouldn't directly affect me (i.e., attack the ally of someone I am in conflict with). Those alliances that form always have an undertone of impermanence. I try to make sure that I remind the people I engage with that these deals are not binding, even when they deal with me. But to be able to do that, there needs to be bargaining chips (which is why I think Diplomacy works so well. Every piece just having a strength value of 1 makes the board so easily readable even on first plays)
I know social deduction games are different from negotiation games. And "bargaining chips" in a social deduction game doesn't seem to be an apt metaphor. But in social deduction games, I would argue, players deal in trust. And they trade in different amounts of information. But without a reason to do so, like gamified elements, it always just ends up being a completely rhetorical battle. And I had a hard time getting people to believe me regardless of whether I was a good 'ne or a bad 'ne. And once that happened, it wasn't really that fun. It felt like I played a game where my actions amounted to nothing even when I hadn't been eliminated.
If that's your cup of tea, go for it. I don't want to yuck no one's yums. However, being me, a less socially adept or maybe less willing to engage in more emotionally manipulative strategies, it just didn't float my boat. So for me, when I heard about BOTC, because of how gamified it is, it does appeal to me more than other social deduction games and I hope to get a chance to play it soon enough; a friend of mine got a copy thankfully. From different playthroughs I've seen, there are definitely moments that if it were to happen to me it would suck the fun out of the game, so I don't think it fixes everything. But it does seem to temper my personal criticisms enough to want to try it.
That was a great video, Efka.
How amazing is this content?
Superb, I want more of these 😊
Just found this video and it was amazing, thank you.
increeeeeeedible video, 1 million thank yous!
Phenomenal video, NPI and Efka.
I've narrated hundreds of Werewolf games for both adults and children and was thrilled to learn so much more about the origins and evolution of this mechanism.
Would love to make a one-off donation for the great effort, humour, and economy of language that went into creating this. Please let me know if there's a preferred way to do that!
Thank you so much for offering to contribute to NPI. You can always do so via nopunincluded.com/donate
@@NoPunIncluded Done!
Amazing. Funny, informative and thorough. Love your work ❤️
Wow, what an amazing video. I really enjoyed thanks!
Fanatastic and entertaining video.Although I am not basically interested in party games, this has me interested to say the least. I even learned some things. Very well done and did loved the cameo roles by Elaine too.
When you made your 90s voice, before you said it was your 90s voice, the words "Cowabanga dude!" Formed in my head. Well done.
Enjoyed every minute of this well made video, you guys are always insightful and interesting and I don't know why you don't have more subscribers than you do. Thank you for going the extra mile.
This was absolutely fantastic, and I'm bummed I didn't watch it day of release! Amazing work y'all, thanks for all you do.
I really you going into the history and background of the game and the genre, so that it is more than just about this specific game. Thanks!
"...more pit falls than Pitfall." Is a great line.
Loving the costumes and sets! Also, an excellent deep dive on my favorite genre of games, and with the added bonus of making me question myself XD!
I loved the breakdown of the history of the genre. It helped me empathize with people that do not like the genre and why that may be.
Wow - I loved learning the origin-story of this game! Students with unstructured time stuck in rooms? That's literally how I first learned Mafia. Myself and less than a dozen middle schoolers ended up with an unsupervised free period because the rest of our grade was in either choir or band, but the orchestra teacher didn't visit our school as often.
No idea who already knew or taught us the game, but we'd use scraps of folded paper drawn from a pile to assign roles. We had so much fun sitting in a circle telling crazy murder stories about everyone who died off and sometimes play acting our deaths (The acting made being the murder victim more fun). Eventually someone must have blabbed or we got too loud and a teacher finally realized a bunch of pre-teens were play acting murder unsupervised... After that we had to go study quietly in the library on our free days, but those first few weeks of storytelling and backstabbing were thoroughly fun.
This was very good. The script was good, the editing and shot quality were great. Thank you for making it.
That said, the opening shot has some terrible audio. This is only something I noticed because NPI's video quality has been consistently great, so it stood out.
Does it? Sounds perfectly in line with the rest of it. I wonder if it would be different if you refreshed it? Maybe something glitched out?
First time viewer, this was great.
welcome!
Amazing history and review. Superb!
Excellent video. I'll probably never play BOTC (my desire for social deduction pretty much tops out at The Resistance), but I gladly watched a whole hour of you talking about it!
Great video. Please keep up the good work!
Great video! Excellent content as always!!