Changing the Oil Matters: Oil Sample Analysis on a defender P400
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- In this video I review the results of my recent oil analysis on the initial 7,000 mile service on my P400 Defender 110 (in severe weather conditions). The sample sent in was taken at 17,000 miles and the oil had been in for 7,000 miles. According to the data, it shows that there are upper level results for silicon and titanium; the silicon is likely to come from dust particles in the air (though an oil analysis company have informed another JLR owner that high silicon may be a function of gasket materials used in the build -- this may be the case, but given my engine has 17,000 miles on it, I would have expected the silicon levels to have dropped by now -- especially over the work mine has done).
Nevertheless, the results of the oil analysis show that the viscosity and condition of the oil are already (after 7,000 miles) beginning to drop to where their performance is sub-optimal. In addition, a friend has noted that "it is clear that Castrol are supplementing the phosphorus-based anti-wear additives (i.e. ZDDP) with boron and titanium-based anti-wear additives additives, and using molybdenum-based anti-oxidants to achieve the demanding ACEA C5 classification. ZDDP is a fantastic anti-wear and anti-oxidant (its original purpose) but leaves phosphorus deposits on catalytic converters and particulate filters, leading to clogging." My thanks to Cameron Wood (www.shoulder2shoulderoverland.co.uk) for his input here.
Beyond worries of carbon suspension (soot), it seems clear that there are other issues at play here which identify that the recommended service interval of 21,000 miles is excessive and that the oil should be changed earlier. In harsh working conditions, JLR openly admit that their service interval should be nearer 5,000 miles; and these conditions include dusty, hot, or cold environments -- much like the conditions we get in Southern Alberta, and in many other countries in the world.
I recommend an oil change at 5,000 miles as well, as the degradation of the oil is obvious at 7,000 miles and I believe that running the oils for longer durations will likely increase wear of critical components (like timing chain guides and bearings) likely engendering premature component failure -- a belief borne out by the data shown in the analysis.
That said, I am not an oil expert -- so I bow to greater knowledge, but caution that oil is cheap and engines are not. Feel free to comment below with useful and engaging debate; "It's a pretender not a defender" or "solid axles rule OK" comments will be deleted -- just sayin'.
The intro and outro are from: EEAAEA
Performed by: VVibeTrix (Johanna Ahola-Launonen, Maarit Laihonen, Matti Häyry, Mikaela Mansikkala, Satu Haiko)
Music: Matti Häyry
Lyrics: Matti Häyry
Arrangement: Matti Häyry, Mikaela Mansikkala, Lacce Väyrynen
Recording: Matti Häyry, Lacce Väyrynen
Studio engineering: Matti Häyry, Lacce Väyrynen
Producer: Lacce Väyrynen
Executive producer: Matti Häyry
Mastering: Kesthouse
With Permission from: (c) Matti Häyry and Polite Bystander Productions 2019
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Thanks for the video and the time it took you! Very informative... I'm happy to see Finn every time you post a video, worrying that you will follow through with your threats to get a Disco 5!
Haha! I may be headed to Ontario this week to look at another one! I just have to push the dealership on price. I’m glad you’re enjoying the channel and content, though!
I agree with all said here, as a 2023 defender owner.
If you’re wanting to keep yours a while, you should consider halving all the service internals at a minimum. Good luck with yours, and enjoy!
Nice video!
Thank you! The long-drain oil mentality is pernicious, and it’s not until you start looking into it carefully that you see how problematic it is.
Excellent and very informative Steve.Ever since i purchased my first car (Fiesta Pop,997cc!) in 83' and on which i skinned my teeth as a amateur mechanic i have held 3 beliefs which are as relevant on my D300 Defender as i did on my Pop---1/"Run" your engine it for at least 2000 miles--it will have a significant impact on its reliability over its lifetime. 2/Never rev it hard until it's at operating temp. 3/Change oil and filters(Air/Oil) every 5-6000 miles. I call this common-sense and there,like yours many reports to support this. In my opinion it really is the heart of the engine and is vital to its longevity.
If you push JLR enough, they will tell you that their ‘extreme climate’ service intervals (where weather is dusty, or temps exceed +35° or -20°) are 5,000 miles. Given the life that some Land Rovers lead, this means that JLR’s official line is that 5,000 is enough. Sure, under certain circumstances, 10,000 or 20,000 may be fine - but that’s the ideal.
After 4 years, JLR don’t have to worry about the results of long drain oils; they just sell bits for broken engines to customers who complain that their engines have workout too quickly. But you and me do (assuming we’re the owners). Accordingly, I’ll keep swapping my oils every 5,000 miles or so and forget my worries about saving $300 on a service that year.
Like you, I have the same ideas about engine management; I also leave my engine to idle for a few minutes after a long push so that it can settle down after being worked.
Agree with most of what you say, oil and filter are cheap and easily done, lifeblood of the engine, my old Defender gets changed every 6000 miles, letting the engine warm through is also very important. Running in new engines is a grey area now, they've found on large 4 stroke bikes that they develop more power if not run in, the reason seems to be that modern oil is so good that things don't bed in properly if treated too gently, Yamaha (think it was Yamaha) actually put low grade oil in new bikes to aid the break in period now.
@@andicog I can’t say anything about bikes, as I’ve no experience there - but oil is cheap and engines aren’t!
@@shedlock2000 Agreed. I suppose for some people it's the labour cost to get it changed that stings, I do all my own maintenence and as you say, oil is cheap.
As said, many of us who love our land rover defender's wether the old ones or the 2020 we usually change the oil and filter at 5k or less and use good oil and filter. Like you I'm not a fan of these big service intervals. If your not a person who does his own servicing it's also too long with checking things whilst under there and catching a developing problem early. Great video mate !
Would be really interesting to test some oil from a 21k recommend change.
Agreed. I’m hoping one of the crows will have theirs done at a dealer and get a sample sent off.
Oil is cheap; engines are expensive!
Another excellent video entertaining and educational keep them coming
Thanks! 😊
Great video, thanks for the info Steve
You bet!
Thanks for that.
Very interesting.
This new "fad" by the car manufacturers for extending oil service intervals has me puzzled.
Yes, certainly the new oils are far superior to what was available 20-30 years ago - no doubt whatsoever.
However, new purchase prices for anything halfway decent (including JLR products) have gone through the roof. Major repair costs are bonkers.
Does anyone actually rebuild engines top to bottom anymore? Why can't parts suppliers give us OEM parts at a reasonable cost so we do not have to resort to Chinese (or other lower quality) rubbish?
There are lots of garages specializing in jiffy lubes and/or jiffy routine maintenance so why the push by manufactures to extend these intervals so drastically?
Seems counter intuitive to me.
The other annoying trend is making the simple act of changing oil so difficult.
Why wouldn't the sharp minds at JLR not make the new Defender service friendly for the owner?
All these belly plates are certainly justifiable and useful, by why not a quick release affair for the plate directly below the sump?
An owner should be able to access that sump plug quickly and simply without having to faff about for half an hour and then risk losing half the fasteners.
I totally agree with your attitude toward regular maintenance!
Especially with a vehicle like a Defender.
Seems car makers today are just amping up the "Planned Obsolescence" doctrine as far as it can be pushed.
Both shameful and wasteful in my opinion!
I do agree with the wastefulness - but there’s a certain kind of arrogance in owners too: where once the maintenance of a vehicle was a matter of pride, it’s now become something to ignore. I was suggesting to someone that longer drain services would not affect his ownership, but those of the next owner (understanding that the issues associated with long drain oil do not affect the engine within the warranty period but afterwards - usually when the first owner has moved it on). And their response was to say ‘very good then’ - which I took as to mean that individual didn’t care because their protocol wouldn’t affect them. Sadly, that long drain change will now result in premature engine wear and associated failures for the next owner.
This isn’t an issue directly caused by JLR (nor engine design), but by the behaviours of lazy and inconsiderate owners. The pride in owning and maintaining a complex vehicle has now gone - part of the difficulty is that people don’t care.
@@shedlock2000 Very good points. And I totally agree with you. The poor chap who buys a second hand motor doesn't know what he's letting himself in for these days. Pride of ownership is becoming a thing of the past, sadly.
@@badfinger61 Agreed. It’s sad to see the way people treat their vehicles and without thought of the next owner. There generally no consideration given to future owners and the disposition towards maintenance is only for the imminent: what’s the least I can do to maintain warranty.
I did an oil analysis on a Defender with around 25,000 miles on the clock, many years ago. This was a diesel naturally aspirated 110 Hi Cap pickup. It was about three years old at the time and I did the analysis the oil had been in the sump for 5000 miles, which was 1000 miles short of the maximum recommended service interval.
The results came back with comments about excessive iron, copper and I forget what other horrors. It really frightened me until I came to my senses. To cut a long story short, the old LR Diesel engines blacked the oil as soon as the engine was re-started after an oil change; that is just the way they are. I persisted with 5000 mile oil change intervals for another 20 years before the engine failed and it didn't fail due to a lubrication wear issue. It failed due to a broken piston.
Oil analysis are only really useful if done regularly within service intervals, basically to find any sudden change in contamination either due to the oil itself failing or due to some engine component failing.
Otherwise don't take any notice of one-off oil analysis results. You'll sleep better at night.
Oil analyses don’t worry me because I change my oils frequently enough that the results are never problematic. However, the results are indicative! The various contaminates that float around the engine do show wear (and what kinds of things are wearing). They can identify oncoming failures, but they also indicate what kinds of wear is happening.
Blacking the oil is well known in a diesel, but it’s not normally something that happens in petrol engines. My 3.5 and 3.9 V8s would have similar coloured oil after 5,000 miles as before. That’s not the case on newer vehicles because of EGR designs. But this is also indicative! If the oil is becoming black due to EGR, then the oil is picking up something from the exhaust gas that it wouldn’t normally. What is that? Well, spot, heat, and other stuff. What happens to that stuff? Well, it is suspended in the oil and reduces its efficacy. Why does it reduce efficacy? Well, because if an oil has suspended particulates, it becomes abrasive, and with enough abrasiveness and a long enough exposure time, it will wear bearings and other softer materials decreasing engine life and generating greater engine wear. Physics, so they say, is physics!
@@shedlock2000
Particles in the oil only become a problem under two scenarios.
1. That the size approximates the film depth of the oil in bearings.
2. Where the shear number of particles overwhelm the dispersant properties of the lubricant and therefore start clumping together to produce sludge and deposits.
There is another issue with long drain intervals which are either excessively long or the oil used is not of sufficient performance quality, and that is loss of shear strength and viscosity, which tends to happen very suddenly. This causes a sudden and severe [temporary] increase in oil consumption but if run that way for longer than an hour or two, severe engine wear as well.
Most long drain synthetic oils these days are limited by contamination volume. Not by particles or indeed particulates that cause the oil to 'look dirty', but by fuel dilution.
Interesting. How do they manage differently the particulate?
@@shedlock2000
The oil filter's job is to remove particles that are of a potentially harmful size, no matter whether of carbon, metal or indeed sealer or plastic. Therefore it is ultimately the shear number of particles that will eventually overwhelm either the filtration capacity or, if very small, the capacity of the oil's dispersants and detergents to keep them in harmless suspension rather than deposit or clump together to thicken the oil.
@@shedlock2000
Ah! I see what you are asking now. Oils differ greatly in their capacity to keep the engine clean. A dirty looking oil is actually doing its job well compared to an inferior oil that would look clean but leave deposits in the sump, around the valve gear and in the piston rings.
The way they differ is in the base oil, for the potential to stay in grade longer and in more extreme duty cycles, but also in the additive package that determines film strength, foaming, and the absorption capability and capacity. This is important in very light oils but not as much more as most people would expect in relation to film depth/strength as long as the two viscosity numbers are very close. The closer they are, the less the viscosity alters between being very cold and very hot. Therefore a 0W/20 is basically a '20' when hot and varies little when cold. A5w/20 even less so but more as the ambient temperature drops way below zero. But I digress. I'm guessing that a 0W/20 is specified for Canada but a 5W/20 OK for your Summer and UK all round use.
Engines generally last longer than ever before even despite ever-longer service intervals and higher power and torque from less swept volume. I had a business acquaintance back twenty years ago that ran Audi Allroad diesel cars, driving all around UK and Ireland for an average of over 70,000 miles annually. He ran them on 20,000 mile service intervals and for 200,000 miles each before trading. Never had an engine issue but several had signs of tired transmissions at 200,000 hard driven miles. He then went to BMW 7 series twin turbo diesels, again living out of a suitcase and had similar experience. Always changed at around three years of age and had excellent trade in prices from main dealers who apparently took little account of the massive mileage. The cars were always immaculate because they very seldom carried a passenger.
He certainly didn't analyse the oil.
I am sure he never had dramas, but the next owners likely did! When maintaining these sorts of service intervals, the damage done is rarely seen by the first owner - mostly because of your first point: newer designed engines do last longer because build qualities and materials are better. However, all that has a limit; ask the people who have to replace their timing chains or transmissions due to long-drain service protocols!
@@shedlock2000
Timing chains do not wear as a result of long service intervals. They wear and fail due to being designed for a finite life [even if the oil was changed weekly] or poor design and engineering. Example of the latter was the 2.0 diesel BMW engine that had mismatched pitch between the sprockets and chain rollers, almost guaranteeing failed chains before 70,000 miles.
99% of cars nowadays are scrapped before their engines are worn out as long as the engines are serviced at least as often as the manufacturer specifies. Long gone are the days of 3000 mile oil changes and 60,000 mile major rebuilds of the engine.
I changed the oil on my 2020 Defender (P400) about 2 weeks ago and just got the results. The oil had 12000 miles on it and the car has 33000 miles on it. My Iron was 61, silicon was 24, titanium was 4, calcium was 1742, and TBN was 2.1. I'm using LiquiMoly (special tech LR). I will be doing shorter intervals for sure. Clearly something isn't quite right with the engines. I changed my air filter at the last oil change also.
Thanks for the feedback, Nathan! What colour was it when you changed it? How did it smell?
The figures you’ve shared seem excessive to me - especially the silicon and iron. Did you throw LiquidMoly in this time or at the beginning? I’ve heard a lot about their product - does it pass muster with the warranty requirements?
I agree. Something is definitely not right. Its entirely possible that JLR have decided that major engine failure due to long drain oil is likely going to not be their problem, and have sort of waved their hands at the results they’re getting back. They must clearly have had the same kind of results we have had from their tests, so ignoring the figures can only suggest they don’t care (in the same way that they didn’t care about the L322 front diff debacle or the ZF transmission issues). Not a good sign if things to come, methinks.
It smelled fine. It wasn't too dark either. It did smell and feel like it was time to change it though. I will not be going as long any more. I will probably do 7000 on my next one and keep reducing the interval if the numbers stay high. Maybe an oil filter change at 3500. The car came with the Castrol. I did the first change at 21000 (per the manual, oops) and that's when I went to the LiquiMoly. The LiquiMoly I'm using is the LR designated oil. I researched and found there may be 2 specs of oil listed. I think the workshop manual says the LiquiMoly spec is ok, but the owners manual doesn't list it. I told the dealership I was using it and they seemed impressed I was using LiquiMoly so I guess I should be safe. I'm guessing my next change will be in about 6 months or less, and I'll test it again then and report back. Just because the warranty expires, I don't think that will get them out of trouble if these results are this common of a problem.
I’ve heard good things about LiquidMoly, but I know very little about it. What made you make the switch? I’m interested to learn that there’s a difference between the two manuals.
It might be worth checking in 5,000 miles to see what condition it’s in. If it’s good, you can then try 7,000.
JLR haven’t been great at honouring warranty issues. The 2.0ltr diesel is still blowing up left right and centre (even in the new defenders), the TD6 cranks are not warrantied past the warranty period even though it’s a known issue (same is true of the D5 windshields), and so on. I don’t foresee a major issue with the straight sixes, but the oil issue will clearly reduce the life of the engine.
@@shedlock2000 ultimately it's easy to get. The Castrol in LR spec was only available from the dealership and they no longer sell it. I like LiquiMoly and heard good things about the oil. And its available in what is an LR spec.
@@not_the_stig Ahhh! Yes, good point. It’s not easy to find where I am, sadly. I know there’s a Fuchs equivalent too, but that’s unobtanium in Canada. I have heard that Mobil 1 meets the specs, but there are so many Mobil 1 varieties I’m not sure which it is, as none of them show the JLR (or European) or standards on the label!
The LR recommended service intervals are halved if my Classic Defender is used in hot and dusty conditions. I service every six months which usually comes before distance travelled. Do you change your air filter at oil changes? There is an argument around that an airfilter is more efficient with a bit of dust in it than a fresh filter...can't vouch for this.
Its fairly obvious that a slightly dust coated air filter is more efficient than a new filter at filtering. It is important to ensure that air filters are seated and sealed correctly.
I always change the air filters at service time. I used to also change the fuel filters - but these are often in the pumps now and are unchangeable (which is annoying and a waste).
I’ve mentioned above in a few places that extreme service conditions would reduce the service interval for JLR. Once upon a time, they used to have special oils and filters for extreme climates (early range rovers in Canada were supplied with yellow power steering fluid which was specially formulated to reduce the water contamination and be less viscous in colder weathers). The new iGuides don’t mention this, but you’re right, and any Land Rover in climates which regularly exceed +35 or -20°c are delineated as being in extreme climate conditions.
I’m not familiar with the discourse on slightly dusty filters being more efficient - there’s probably something in it, but I can’t say for sure. I swap mine out mostly because I open the box to see if there’s anything there that shouldn’t be - then when I’m in there, I swap the filter because it saves me a job another time.
Thanks so much for posting. It really makes me wonder what the analysis would be on Ronin (my P400) without the air intake. I live in a generally year-round dusty environment and am just curious what the difference would be.
I’m not sure. After I recorded this video, I was contacted by a guy who had his tested after the first 5,000 miles. His silicon levels were three times mine, and the analysis company suggested this was a function of sealants used in the build of the engine. They suggested that the silicon content would reduce over time as the silicon heated up and burned off (essentially).
My analysis team said that there is little silicon used in engine builds now and that the contamination is a function of dust and sand particles. I’ll do another analysis on the next 5,000 and tell you what are the results. If my team are right, the silicon content would be the same (or worse, as it’s summer here now); if my friend’s are right, then the Si figures will be lower.
Also the oil filter ,I don't think can last for 21,000 miles.
I don’t either! I suspect it would cease to function properly before that time.
My dad as 110 P250 diesel version. How many miles is suggested by manufacturer and how many would you suggest? I'm bit worried about Land Rover dealership service, if they really change the oil. They have mostly rich customers who don't really care about these things.
Those are fair concerns. In my experience of JLR dealerships, they don’t do a very good job in most cases. I imagine that they’d change the oil, though, because it’s easy and can be checked simply - but that doesn’t mean they would (see my video on the 43 faults for evidence of JLR shenanigans!)
In a D250, I’d change the oil every 5,000 miles. Diesel oil is cleaner now, but the soot/dilution issue is still a concern. You can go shorter, but don’t go longer. Oil changes are easy, so there’s no difficulty in doing them regularly.
For the P300/400, the service interval is 21,000 miles. I’m not actually sure what it is for diesels - less I imagine, but I don’t know by how many. Regardless of their recommended interval, I’d cut it down to 5,000 miles.
I'm not sure if this is relevant, but our 2015 RR Sport , 3 litre diesel, always asks for an oil change every 6000 miles or so. LR always say they can't understand it, as it's supposed to be a year or 16,000 miles. We just do it with a local LR Specialist. Worth it for £170.
Is the oil being contaminated by fuel and raising on the electronic dipstick, triggering a service indicator?
As it happens I'm changing the oil and filter on a six cylinder, six litre turbo-intercooler engine today. It takes 18litres of premium diesel oil which costs me £31.50 [bought in 200 litre barrels] plus two large filters, another £30. All plus VAT. Point being that I see £170 for an oil change every 6000 miles and think 'WOW, that's expensive!' Not being facetious or anything, the last sentence of yours just tickled me pink.
@@hedydd2 Hi Huw, thank you for your reply, I'm not sure whether the oil is getting contaminated, I'm not
mechanically minded, so, I get my local 4x4 garage to do it. Other than servicing the car has been super reliable and I kinda think of it as Karma...lol.
@@adkc19
They make lovely vehicles and if you have a good one it will be just a pleasure to own and drive.
The JLR recommended Castrol Edge Profesaional is monty money, Huw! Even bought direct from Castrol it’s expensive! Some Mobil 1 oils meet and exceed JLR’s recommended specifications (and is half the price), but I can’t seem to find which one it is over here - so while mine’s in warranty, it’ll have JLR oil!
Agreed, @andy c. £170 isn’t all the money when you think about it!
JLR’s extreme service interval is 5,000-6,000. It may have been programmed for that rather than the regular interval. I’m not sure how it’s done, but it’s likely the reason.
Just wondering what are you thoughts as to extended service intervals for low mileage vehicles, I am in the UK and average about 6k annually so follow the 2 year service program. It appears from reading the comments I would be better changing my Poland filters annually.
Hi David,
You do have low mileage! Once upon a time, I would have recommended that you change the oil once a year because of condensation capture (mineral oils didn’t do well with condensation). With the newer synthetic oils that’s much less of an issue.
Assuming you’re right at 6,000 miles per year, you’d probably be able to push it to two years (given the temperate climate, lack of dust, newer engine design, and high-grade Castrol synthetic oils used), because your only issue would be condensation from short journeys. I’d prefer 18 months because I’d really struggle (myself) to take it past 10,000 miles without dropping the oil, but the reality is the oil would likely be ok with a 12,000 mile drop.
Hi do you believe in an oil drop when the run in period is over i.e 1000 miles ??? after all the initial wear is over
Hi Jon,
I don’t believe this is necessary on modern engines. The thinking behind the early drop was because older engines had less refined tolerances and would ‘bed-in’ (which means that parts in transition fits would wear away a bit). This bedding-in process would generate large amounts of metallic contaminates (as I’ve mentioned above in my reply to @Huw); these contaminates, if left in circulation, would damage the engine and thus needed removal.
Once the engine had run 1000 miles or so, the bedding in would be complete and there would not be any further contamination. However, modern engines have much better machining tolerances and materials, so they don’t really bed-in. Accordingly, there’s fewer contaminates in the oil to cause damage and you’re safe to run it for longer.
The above being said, it’s still not wise to thrash or rev hard a new engine.
@@shedlock2000 I am a great believer of correct running in procedure etc etc and the regular oil change regime as you said "oil is far cheaper than
a new engine".
Agreed!
My ex employer got a 2004 Mondeo to drive from his house to the office every day. Never serviced it in may be 10 years, had repairs carried out ,as an when it needed. The oil and filters did 75,000.. not saying it's right tho..🤔
I know a few stories like that, and I’ve seen the rocker covers of such engines! There’re photos on the t’interwebs you should take a look at. Also, older engines like Mondeo’s were much more forgiving as their build roller exes were less right and their oil ways were bigger (such that, even with baked-on oil, oil could still pass); oil ways are now much smaller and are more prone to clogging up causing timing chain and rocker bearing issues.
Do you have a recommendation for the ZF in the defender?
Do you mean do I have a service recommendation? Yes, ZF recommend servicing the box every 75,000miles. I do mine every 75,000km (see below). I did that on my rangy and on my LR3 (though they were both 6 speeds).
The 8 speed ZFs have a similar design and the service is done in the same way: the pan is also the filter, that is swapped out and new fluid is installed. If you’re lucky, there’s a place near you that can push fluid through. Otherwise, you’ll end up with old oil in the torque converter and cooler that you can’t drain by hand. Because I swap my transmission oil every 75,000km (due to having no transmission shop here with a pump), I reduce the amount of dirty oil in my transmission more frequently (though some will remain in the system, the fresh filter helps reduce its effect on the new oil).
While I thought this informative, it was incredibly painful to endure a 21 minute video to glean the 2 minutes of real content
Thanks for your feedback, Jeffrey. I have always been very unhappy with videos that miss out important information by cutting them to make them short. I try not to do that. On my later videos I have added contents so that viewers can more rapidly move sections if they want to.