This video was edited by SefWhiter on TH-cam! Please let me know any critiques, praises, or suggestions you have for the editing in this video so that we can make the next one better!
the edit is really good there were no moments where i thought that it was bad or that something was off,he did a really good job and you should thank him (btw i really love your videos)
You know, I love Generations, but every now and then when play it again I realize how they kind of took a hold your hand type deal with timing your inputs, as at worst you just might have to take a different path. It doesn't have consequences like in Unleash where if you mash the wrong input, or mash at the wrong time you'll be greeted with spikes to make you want to rethink your life's decisions and restart again to do better.
W video, im glad someone understands why debates and arguements happen in the first place, if sega learn from there mistakes we wouldnt be here clashing heads on what idea is good or bad for the franchise, this vid was well thought out so more power to you
When Forces came out, it did have a few good ideas. It wasn’t a great game and Classic Sonic is almost the Big the Cat of that game, but it wasn’t really as bad as people made it out to be. Regardless, we were coming out of a period of years of only that Sonic Boom abomination. Quite frankly I was just happy to see that we were rid of that Sonic Boom garbage and the never ending brainless comedic act that plagued Sonic Colours and Sonic Lost World. My stance on it was, that I was gonna try to enjoy it as best as I could (and I actually did) and that I would forgive it for being an average game, if it was a step towards something good. And it was a step towards Frontiers, whether the neckbeards admit it or not.
Hard disagree. Hot take, but Sonic community is amazing and is what keeps Sonic alive. So many passionate fan games and projects! The criticisms are just a sign about how much people care. If it weren't for the rants, Movie sonic would be looking like a rejected Star Wars alien right now and wouldn't have lasted passed the firs movie. So no, the fact that Sonic Team has repeatedly disappointed fans to the point that there are civil wars within the fanbase is completely their fault.
@@DJack276 I don’t entirely disagree with you, but how many times do the Chris Chans and Sammy Sonic Fans of the community overshadow the Christian Whiteheads and ChaosX’s of the community? And yes, I agree that sometimes fan outcry can achieve great things, but most of the time it’s divided. Some people want sonic to keep going with the boost, some want the adventure formula, some want other things entirely. And most of the time these people go around attacking other fans, crapping on their excitement, while others want to silence criticism. Hell! There are already people who are moaning about Sonic X Shadow Generations over a couple of cutscenes and a couple of transitionary areas in the new content. And hot take: movie sonic still looks like ass. And the reason it was changed was because it was so bad it shocked the general public, not just sonic fans. Like I remember YongYea having a video on that particularly disastrous reveal and I’m fairly certain he’s not a sonic fan.
@@DJack276Nah the Sonic Community BEEN ruined itself, way before Forces. There was a time when Great games we had got called terrible on release just because it wasn’t the next SA2. Then there was a switch up and now they’re “underrated.” The community makes it so hard to get across what’s good for the franchise.
Finally somebody said it. This game divided the fandom so much and bred every debate we have about classic sonic, recycled content, quill length, writing, momentum, automaton, etc.
Seriously, if I had to name every divisive topic that started mainly because of Forces: - Amy's characterization - Tails' characterization - Sonic's characterization - Classic Sonic's design and purpose - Reused assets - Level Design - Stage ranking system - Boost gameplay - Nostalgia Pandering - Green Hill Zone's presence - The agency/lack of agency of Sonic's friends without him - Humans vs Anthros - The existence of wisps - Animations - Stage Length - Sonic being "cheesy" - Powerscaling Infinite compared to older villains - Dash panels - Quill length - Momentum - Classic Sonic's music The game traumatized everyone.
@@galanga21890 A villain that requires reading a prequel comic, playing DLC and looking up a Ian Flynn QnA in order to get the full context/backstory of.
For me, the Sonic Forces trailers became increasingly concerning when they kept showing the same footage over and over and over and over again. The town plaza in destruction, green hill with giant robots, sonic posing after jumping. For me that was a red flag that they weren't confident in showing anything else of the game, aside from a Classic Sonic gameplay short and gameplay of the final Shadow level.
@@thedredayshow9246 lol chill on the community now - actually nvm you are right but what I’m tryna say is the Sonic fanbase ruined itself. And while Sonic personally fell off for me as a gaming franchise I do love the comics, movies and shows it has
Regarding radical highway looking like a straight line if you look closely you can see black doom flying around in the background and there’s a scene later that has you flinging gun robots into black doom who is shielding so I think the whole radical highway section is a boss chase rather than a actual level which would explain the straight lines
Give that editor a medal for using 5 second clips of all games which makes the video interactive by making me think "Huh would I judge that game just by seeing that?" Brilliant editing, I love stuff like that
Something I feel is worth pointing out specifically is that linear doesn't mean bad. Unleashed has pretty good level design with fun daytime levels and the split pathway options are very, very limited in that game. Generations does a slightly, SLIGHTLY better job with split pathways but still generally amounts to its levels being bendy straws. Even SA2's speed levels were generally pretty linear, and yet that game has a legendary status amongst the Sonic community. What's more important isn't how linear the level design is, but how engaging it manages to be. In Unleashed and Generations for example, there's a genuine challenge in timing your movements to efficiently deal with upcoming hazards quickly and efficiently, the thrill comes from how quickly you can finish the levels, not how many different paths you can take from point A to point B. Or to put it another way: The thrill is in mastering the level to the point you can speedrun it and best your own best times, or those of your friends or even an online leaderboard. The problem with Forces isn't that the stages are too linear, it's that they're too short and unengaging. They rely too much on basic platforming and don't contain the same reflex based challenges that were present in Unleashed and Generations. Colors is kinda smack dab in the middle, occasionally relying too much on basic platforming but still never quite entirely forgetting what makes boost stages fun to begin with.
Forces didn't break the fans, the fans were already so broken by then that they couldn't accept a game that was relatively better than the games right before (LW & Boom) unless that game was going to be perfect. You can blame Sega's marketing all you want, but at the end of the day nothing that happened with Forces was generally all the different from any other Sonic game we pretend is flawless. The fans just weren't mature enough or aware enough of the franchise's fraught history with game development to understanding of any of it. It's the same reason why even when Sonic makes banger content (Frontiers, Prime, the movies, etc) the fans WILL tear it apart even if deep down they enjoy what they saw. No one hates Sonic more than the fans that "love" him.
What fascinates me most about the reused cyberspace levels was the Adventure 2 ones like Green Forest and Sky Rail. See, I don't think they were being lazy with those ones. I think they were TESTING if Adventure-ish level design could still work, if people could even play Green Forest nowadays and enjoy it. Because apparently that was a question that needed answering.
I think aside from feeling soulless thanks to Green Hill everywhere, they even played better, with less jank. I could see Adventure 2 remake that plays better than the original. Well, aside from the odd limitation of not being able to homing attack offscreen targets resulting in difficulties with propeller springs from Sky Rail, but that's just a minor issue.
Ey that is me thanks Matt I’m glad that you gave me a shout out I’m a big fan and I’m about to join the sonic TH-cam community and become a sonic tuber because you guys inspire me but something else I do think that Sonic team can make good level design again because of update 2&3 with the spindash and the adventure level design and momentum physics but something else I wanna see is a new hedgehog engine what surpasses hedgehog engine 1
Kinda what it is sonic unleashed and generations had strong water effects what causes the games to drop frames and the hedgehog engine 1 had also strong lightning for the PS3 and Xbox 360 maybe it was Sonic team fault for not optimizing the engine but those 2 games had better boost physics what send enemies flying and the boost was faster so I would like to the next sonic game to capture more of those original games or surpass it and give the open world more of a Sonic GT feel with the levels
I'm curious if Shadow Generations will have the spin dash at launch. It was released late last year for Frontiers and this game has had to be in development for at least 2 years. I could see it being added later after launch.
I’m just glad we are getting more Shadow and Generations content. Also if it’s good or bad. I’m happy that the community will make more fan games a few months after it releases.
I can't say Forces was the cause of that divide. That's the same divide you'll see in any fan community. Plus, Sonic lost the trust of fans waaaaay before Forces.
Id say what frustrates me more really. Is the fact that no one that no one bring up specifically, is that the Final Horizon cyberspace stages are actually much more expansive and better designed, than the stages prior to that update so I expect the stage quality to be on par with the Horizon stages at best and at worst they won’t be as sophisticated as Generations stages. So Im 🤞confident that they’ll be better than Forces and Frontiers pre-horizon cyberspace stages since Kishimoto has taken the feedback to heart, so he’ll bring that new design philosophy to this campaign too.
Tbh when I played forces in 2017, I thought what we got was fine, my main issue was that it felt way too short, I wasn't necessarily "burned" by it That's probably why I'm not as critical of these trailers even if it did end up being forces quality, and the fact I'm the least observant person on planet earth
Sonic Forces did not ruin the community. We did. It's just a game on a disk. WE were the ones who decided to become aggressive, obsessive, elitist, overprotective, etc. WE decided to send this fanbase into a nosedive, casting shame on "classic" Sonic (the original Sonic who made the series famous), denying the legitimacy of anything not Japanese for some reason, spending several years arguing about trivial nothings like quill length and muzzle curve, permitting and even encouraging degenerate behavior, spreading misinformation/slander about Takashi Iizuka, Morio Kishimoto, and Jun Senoue, all while generally mistreating any fans or devs involved with the 2010's games, just as the classic elitists did with the 2000's decades ago. Forces was just a mediocre video game. Not even as bad as Shadow or 2006. The fanbase has no one to blame but themselves.
@@vividcolorandrichaudio6134you can say you love pancakes but some maroon comes in like "so you hate waffles???" Anyways I agree with your comment, it's a video game, love it or hate it but taking it seriously in anyway is your own prerogative, and honestly I find it quite funny and sad in a way
@@Modiecus literally, sonic adventure 2 is just a straight line in almost all of it's speed type level design, the only reason people would like it is because of it's reputation after a RE-RELEASE on gamecube.
I had a similar thought about the bad level design thing But tbf in the Pre release of Forces people rationalised the level design hard So I believe both sides of the argument hold Validity
You're definitely right here. I found some enjoyment out of Sonic Forces and Frontiers, so I'm not too worried about the Shadow level design in Sonic X Shadow Generations, but I understand the concerns despite the little amount of gameplay we've seen. I'm not that guy to say "oh, Sonictubers are back at it again being negative" because I just get nothing out of saying that. When having discussions, I try to keep it as civil and respectful as possible, and maybe put aside my personal bias when needed. Great video, Matt! I hope you're enjoying talking about Sonic again.
@@dreamsdeep1076 'some enjoyment' is probably the most backhanded compliment you can give to a game and you're out here acting like the man is defending the game with his life.
I found plenty of enjoyment out of the Cyberspace levels. Finding the many ways I can speedrun the level even faster has became an addiction all on it's own. Forces, I mean, what speedrunning? Level design is so bloody limited.
@@LoliconSamalik i always enjoyed speedrunning Forces. Actually, there are cool skips on many of the levels(I just saw a few skips from an Egg Gate speedrun) Besides, I have always loved Forces. I played it for 350 to 400 hours. No, I wont change my mind on ForceLevels. The classic sonic Levels are the only one that has actual level design. Doesn't mean there isn't any cool skips you can pull off in the Avatar and Modern Sonic levels. However, I still think its mediocre(along with Frontiers, and most of Unleashed!) Btw, I made it too the top 100 on many of the levels(on the rankings, for Xbox)
Sonic forces discussion was basically the seed of toxic positivity. I wasn’t a fan until after the release of forces and mania, and looking at comments and discussions are just draining. I’ve experienced toxic positivity once and it’s not fun even looking at this stuff just puts me down. I feel like people aren’t cautious enough and take things at face value, frontiers is so evident of that, despite being received as good(even I think it’s great)the issues from the start are still there, the game looks exactly the same with no real changes. I don’t think being positive is bad but there’s a certain point where we just hype/gas up something instead of looking closely even if it’s 5 seconds. This is another great video talking about how discussion have devolved in the community and hopefully one day we can all agree to disagree or not act so hostile.
I remember i preordered sonic forces and sold it back pre-owned the same day. Something about it immediately felt awful within the first hour of gameplay. The fact that it left this much of an impact on everyone who played it is crazy.
I agree, Sonic Forces really was the last nail in the coffin for many fans after being disappointed by Sonic Boom and Lost World. And it was a pretty big nail at that. Rn I am cautiously optimistic about Sonic x Shadow Generations because Frontiers was decent and I had a lot of fun with it.
Remember When people hyped up Colors Ultimate: *literal moment before disaster*, lol. If there ever was a root for all Sonic's problems it would be Forces, as most problems people see in recent sonic games literally originated there, showing us sega is either too stubborn, or too deaf when hearing the general sonic community's disdain for Forces. Which is interesting because when people openly stated there dislike for 06 they were quick to change direction, or how Unleashed gameplay mechanics never showed there face since Generations.
Tbh i'm not worried about the shadow portion because forces was the only boost game with bad level design. Frontiers' original stages (e.g. 4-2 and 4-4) felt like they were trying to be adventure stages and not boost stages which is why I class cyberspace as trying to be like SA1/SA2 than boost since the stages taken from SA2 and put into Frontiers feel better to play than the gens/unleashed stages put into Frontiers. The whole gimmick for Forces' levels were that you "didn't have to worry about complex game controls" hence why they were basically on auto-pilot. So I believe Shadow gens will have better level design as there is more examples of the boost formula having well designed stages than badly designed ones
I'm pretty excited for Sonic X Shadow Generations regardless of what we saw in the trailer. But yeah, Forces really did fuck a lot of Sonic fans up. It's quite crazy that Sonic Team ever released a game like that. But I'm kinda happy that Sonic Team has been learning from it in one way or another.
That's the thing though, they HAVEN'T learned. Even after Forces, we still ended up with unpolished garbage like Colors Ultimate, Sonic Origins, Frontiers. Even Superstars, a game that I liked over all of the previous ones I listed, still ended up being half-baked and heavily flawed. Sega cannot learn. They are incapable of learning. They spent 20, almost 30 years doing the exact same song and dance, entire decades of falling into the same bad habits over and over and over and OVER AGAIN. It's baffling how anyone even has any faith in them left, it's an outright abusive relationship.
I had forgotten that the Sonic Cycle was so *crazy*. I always seem to be on the other side of the Sonic Forces debate. That weird side that shouldn't even exist. And yet I remember a little of what was on my mind leading up to Sonic Force's release: my reactions to "Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric." I had enjoyed Sonic Lost World's twists while my friend was baffled by it; whereas, the Wii U game of Sonic Boom was so confusing an un-fun. It was called a repeat of Sonic 06's exact faults of rushing a poorly optimized game to market. Just like you mentioned, I was burned by Sonic Boom; no wonder that Sonic Forces seemed like a breath of fresh air in comparison. I could listen to the hype and understand that the Sonic Cycle would continue as normal. I didn't have to have a good Sonic game to enjoy a Sonic game. (Maybe I was the target demographic? That's kinda weird. I'm old. ) Even back then, people were defending Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. I still don't understand it, but maybe that's just a part of the Sonic Cycle that I don't comprehend?
The fact that we won’t truly know what we’ll get until the game releases is exactly why people are saying don’t judge based off of 5 seconds. This mostly seems like a problem with the trailers themselves. The trailers will always try to make a game or any product look better than it really is so you can buy it.
I feel like because of the "Shitting on Sonic is cool" era, Sonic will just be one of those franchises and communities that'll be excessively laughed at, dogpiled on, and slandered no matter what for till the end of time. And this is coming from
Personally, im keeping an open mind for the shadow portion. I definitely get cyberspace vibes, but i want to reserve my judgment until the next full trailer or when the game comes out. So im currently sat in between "could be alright" or "could be awful" crowd. It's definitely fair for people to judge games from trailers. For example, the Silent Hill 2 remake trailer didn't impress me that much considering its a remake. Something just felt missing? And I dont play Silent Hill games. I typically find it better to watch a sonic trailer and then discuss it with a group of friends. It's a way healthier conversation.
Love that mindset you have with the friends. That's a really good idea, instead of taking our opinions to strangers with different mindsets we should do it with those that care to have a conversation
Completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not nearly around as much as I used to be for Sonic stuff but now I just take it all with a grain of salt and try not to get too riled up about it because it's going to be whatever they decide to put it out as. Also, awesome editing. Enjoy the video as always. Have a nice day everyone.
Honestly feel like people are way too harsh on cyberspace Its just a small break from the main game with is exploring the starfall islands Yes it repeats level design and appearence But i dont care its not the main focus of the game for me its like saying that sonic 3 sucks because the blue ball stages suck
As someone whose been through it... Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations only restored about a fifth of the trust that 06 lost. And then Sonic Boom and Lost World took over half of that back away. This bickering has been going on a loooooooooong time. And Forces re-enforced it to a horrible degree.
I’m an Adventure Era guy, and seeing that they were daring enough to bring back Black Doom piques my interest. Generations and Unleashed are great; Gens, prior to Mania, being the last game I played through keeping up with the series.
Most important thing is criticism and how many people, not just the Sonic community, don’t understand it well. They think it’s an attack on the beloved art or subject they love and they go crazy. I think judging this game before release is how we get interested. It’s the same with movies, shows, music etc. any art of any kind can be judged by the little bit we have. I don’t care if people love a sonic game or hate one, as long as what they say adds merit. It adds a reason to either enjoy or a reason to be concerned. Me personally I kinda don’t care about the game I didn’t like frontiers so I have to just hope it’s not that when the game comes out
I won’t lie, these days, I just watch Sonic trailers, and have no opinion until it comes out. Because I learned a long time ago it’s just not worth it anymore to get excited or upset at trailers in general anymore. But I understand what you’re talking about, as the Forces trailer at the time got me pumped for it, only to play the game and be disappointed in the end. My personal opinion of course as I don’t agree with everything you said, but there were stuff I do agree it, and I respect opinions from both sides of the argument. In other words, this was a well thought out video.
The defensiveness over pre-release criticism bothers me so much because I was there when Forces was coming out. I thought it looked bad from the very beginning. Of course, tons of people got mad about it. I've seen this same pattern over and over for years, and it's the same every single time. There will always be some childish defense, there will always be a way to move the goal posts further. It sucks. Of course I want the games to be good, but when all they show is bad, why would I get attached to an imaginary version of the game that hypothetically will be good? That's not what the developers actually showed me.
Sonic fanbase is so divided Sega is not interested in outsourcing those style of Sonic games to translate in other projects. Sonic can really split these gameplay mechanics into spin offs really. With the reception that is Sonic Frontiers just sends me concern for how much they are gonna take that into fruition like for example the visuals being too realistic and not belonging in Sonic is an opinion I don’t agree and was happy to see Sonic take that next level leap in the franchise overall.
I'm not worried about the game because of a 5 seconds clip of gameplay, I'm worried about the game because the level design director thingy (forgot his name sorry) is the same one who was working on Sonic forces and it was his idea to make Sonic an unstoppable bullet with very linear level disign.... THIS, is what I'm worried about
True, but he also worked on many great games before then. The only issue with him would whether his philosophy he had there was JUST what he wanted for Forces, or if it's what he thinks Sonic should always be going forward. But he's done great stuff in the past.
@@OMR3333 jyunpei ootsu? Regardless I believe level designers typically create levels based on what the character controller can handle. Sonic in forces can barely turn at full speed, has no drift and every time he jumps he's basically locked on a path. I would imagine that would force level designers to make linear levels to compensate.
I honestly didn’t think Sonic Forces gameplay had anything especially wrong with it. It did have a few frustrating elements here and there, but otherwise it just felt like a lesser version of Sonic Generations. My gripe with Sonic Forces was with its story, especially with Infinite who could have been an excellent villain and final boss, but turns out he’s just another one of Eggman’s lackeys who lost his shit because Shadow called him weak. Tails was characterized completely wrong. The Tails I know would never cower before Chaos 0, especially after his arc in Adventure 1 and 2. Sonic didn’t even appear distressed after 6 months of apparent torture, and classic Sonic had no business even being there. Instead of the custom avatar shit, couldn’t they add additional playable characters like Tails, Knuckles and Shadow? They didn’t even incorporate the chaos emeralds into the story. I miss Adventure style stories in Sonic games. Give me a good story, with real stakes on the line, and I won’t care if the gameplay isn’t a masterpiece as long as it’s enjoyably playable.
@@bowtiefries or just the general handling of sonic :3 He's SO hard to control in comparison to idk knuckles, tails and amy were all better than him in the last sonic game that was released - sonic superstars or somethin like that. xD Frontiers was a good attempt but i found the world and story empty and boring tbh
To be fair, Lost World is by no means a bad game; not buggy, fun to play, great soundtrack and visually pleasing, it's all around a solid game. But people hate it anyway, so Sonic Team decides to bring back Nostalgia Bait the broken physics hog because people loved Generations where he also happened to be so they put 2 and 2 together and got W, they're not right, far from it, but whenever they do make a good game Unleashed, Lost World, 3D Blast, people pan it while singing praises for the bad ones like Sonic Heroes, or hyping up the bad features like 2D Sonic in 3D Sonic's games. You can deny that last part, but when Forces was announced everyone was preaching "ClAsSiC sOnIc Is BaCk!" as they did with Generations. They hate it now, but they'll probably do the same again next time SEGA does it.
I played the lost world last year and I thought it was okay. Better than forces but I am not a big fan of the level design. When you’re playing as a character as fast as sonic in such tuber level design it gets disoriented
i'm gonna be honest Forces shouldn't have even BEEN bad, everything was going in it's favour like the Boost gameplay already perfected with Generations, Sonic Mania being one of the greatest and well received Sonic games released alongside Forces, the *seemingly* darker storyline (from what we've gathered at the time), and basically everyone coming together to get hyped it's shocking that the game turned out the way it did
I think that's why so many Sonic fans seem to basically consider it the worst one in spirit. The game was Sonic Team trying to play it safe, but it still turned out like it did. It was Sonic Team aiming for the floor and MISSING. It's kind of hard to have much faith in the developer manning a platformer franchise when they can't even make 2D platforming not feel bad.
Love how Forces was too bad to a point where people worry about games having similar level design to it based off like 5 seconds. And then people get in fights over it
I want more grounded and creative level designs, like the ones in unleashed, stages being linear is kinda hard coded into sonic, but they could still feel organic,alive, have side paths, secrets, or hell, even a reason for you to stop and admire the scenery
I think we have to give chance for sxsg because sega and sonic team want to make that franchise bigger then ever bigger then sonic frontiers and they just need focus on level design
Lol 06 ruined the community and fandom before forces was even thought of, sonic fans are too varied and polarizing in the west and that's never going too change, I love sonic but I despise the sonic fandom
TBH I thought Frontiers level design was mid, but the final horizion stages gave me a lot of optimism that the team knows how to make good levels that aren't running on a straight line. Now if they know how to make proper quest progression... (seriously, why was it that you could go the entire DLC without even touching cyberspace even once?) fortunately, Generations has a minimal hub so that won't be an issue. There probably are two looming issue with Shadow, though, in lieu of it being an extra campaign instead of a new standalone release 1. level reuse is probably inevitable unless they think it's so expansive that they will charge $70 for a remaster. Honestly I expect them to throw $60 at it a la Bowser's Fury and that will be the usual gamer debate on $$$, but the main point is that Generations isn't a long game to begin with based around re-using levels and I doubt Shadow will be more than 3 hours at most. As Frontiers showed, the level design can still be fun even if cheap, but I know that's going to be a grinding point. looks vs fun (hell, it's a debate happening in several communities), and there will be no right answer nor winner TBH. 2. Thrill may not be quite as high as Frontiers for obvious reasons. It does seem like we'll get a bit of it given the Biolizard sneak peek and even that cool warpy effect with Black Doom, but TBH a lot of Frontiers was carried by its boss battle spectacle. That was going to be hard to do even with a full release, and this is once again an add-on campaign. If the levels aren't pristine then we're probably going to head to more of the same of the usual sonic debates. Sonic's definitely been like this for even longer than Forces, but I agree Forces was a breaking point in the community.
I like where you're coming from here. I guess we just gotta hope Sega can make things better in the future so we don't gotta go through all this discourse every time.
Same thing Happened with Frontiers. We got 5 Minutes of actual final Product Gameplay. Everyone was worried. We were convinced it was an “Early Build” and snappy edited Trailers sold the game in the end Despite the actual Final Product Lacking So Much!
Did forces taint the series, yes, however, fans (as usual) are overreacting with the 5 seconds of gameplay we got of the shadow portion. There was a literal split pathway in the part we saw.
For a second I thought the title said _Frontiers_ instead of Forces, and I was very confused because I thought most people liked Frontiers lol. This makes _much_ more sense. XD
Fun fact. Before you joined. Forces actually had 2 sides. The side you were talking about is the defense squad. But most of us went against them. I think sam procrastination is the leader of that lol
Actually the shitty defense squad felt stronger. I was getting a lot of shit over it. But they all went silent and switched sides after that disappointing game released. 😂
No, the old saying goes "where there's smoke, they pinch back" As for my interpretation of the issue, five seconds isn't enough to form a definitive opinion. However, that isn't to say that you can't at least form a small one. As for me, I'll be skipping the game about Shadow from Sonic X because the past two remasters that were made to capitalise on the movie were of subpar quality.
I don't own Twitter or any social media so I like what I like, but I love channels like you Matt that give me an inside scoop of what's going on. I agree that we should all respect each others opinions because whether the outcome is good or bad one is going to happen.
A nintendo partner showcase is supposedly coming next week. If a new Sonadow Gens trailer is there then it's absolutely gonna be judgement day for the say of the level design of Shadow's section
I hope it's more like cyberspace than gens/unleashed, I actually felt like I was playing a 3D platformer instead of a reaction game, at least in the original stages like 4-4.
@Sonic171K i also perfer the opposite i actually did not like sonic frontiers level design because it didnt feel that fun to play with sonic's physics. i just didnt care as much cause i know the game was more focused on open world
I can say as an older fan, that older Sonic games made quite a few of us very hesitant to trust Sonic games. The two big ones for me were '06 and Unleashed. It's blasphemy to the more modern group of fans, but I considered Unleashed to be one of the worst Sonic games I ever played. Even now I probably wouldn't play it if I was given it for free.
Imo another argument that could be made is that the trailer is literally made INTENTIONALLY to showcase the game. The editors of the trailer SPECIFICALLY grabbed those particular clips because they thought they represented the product best therefore any criticisms or concerns are completely valid.
You are incredibly tame in comparison to some certain sonic tubers i saw vidoes of. Some apparently threw a big fuss about the graphics being the same and the shadows being slightly off. Like really? Out of all the things they could have said this was their concern? at least you gave us valid concerns! Unlike them who gave us concerns that is essentially non existent 🤣
My biggest issue with Cyberspace that could theoretically affect this(Other relevant issues do not look to be in here) is that certain actions in the air were for some reason capped to only being usable once without getting to the ground to refresh. That just sucked, I actually hope that if it comes down to it, we are closer to Forces than Cyberspace in that regard. And really, what is the worst that can happen? It being bad? Then the only major change is that they tripled the price on Gens and our day is not really ruined. 10:18 *Looks at what happened last time. And the time before, actually* Yeah, I'd rather not go into this. All to be said is that I'm not trusting the community at this stage.
Remember going through all this back in 06? That one gave Sega PTSD. I think that it was that fear of doing anything new that ultimately led up to Forces.
Forces has a special place in my heart since it was my first Sonic game but I do agree with you, it has hurt the franchise real bad and Sonic Team is just lacking in gameplay
Liked this video man, I'm in total concordance with the points that you gave in this topic. I think that yeah, it's to soon to criticize a product if the provider didn't even told you anything about it besides it's a chips bag (being the chips bag the gameplay of shadow portion in SxS generations (like only have boost formula)) and it's also correct not trusting him 'cause all the products that the promised you to be good end up being deplorable.
I was right about this for a long ass time. Forces practically destroyed any little bit of 'civil' discussion that could ever be had in the community. It got folks to turn on games like Colors, pinning blame on it for 'everything that went wrong' and for causing the dreaded META ERA (still a stupid name btw), things that weren't actually Colors' fault. Fans felt like it was their fucking duty to meticulously pick apart every single thing about the current state of Sonic, whilst gassing up what they *personally preferred* as 'the objective gold standard'. Their intense paranoia about 'things looking bad' ended up causing them to act like jaded 60yos who think they know so much better then the struggling devs who literally had to fight for extra time on their last 3D outing. It bred nothing but hostility, people got harassed over stupid shit like the blue rat's HAIR LENGTH. Onlookers on Twitter were very much right to take the piss out of people fighting over this, cuz it WAS stupid. You weren't allowed to like Classic Sonic, or the Wisps, or hell sometimes just Boost games in general without some miserable fuckwad coming in and spewing about how those things had 'done so much damage to the series'. It didn't help that some people just chose to follow the word of youtubers and influencers like it was fucking gospel, leading to even more discourse online that felt like a fucking joke. Remember 'Santiago', anyone? 'Kino Broshima'? The moment I stopped taking discussion seriously and just left it behind for good was when people were unironically going '06 was actually pretty good looking back' either out of nostalgia or because of 'what it could've been', and that was when I felt that any sort of discussion in this fandom could not be saved. I personally don't care if folks are nostalgic for that game now or are tired of the same old IGN jokes that only get brought up by the fans now, like the game if you want, but it earned its scorn for good reason. People trying to assemble this narrative that the game that was absolutely slammed by everyone on the planet is now 'a hidden gem' only made me think about how we got here in the first place, and it was all because of a very boring, bland, yet objectively *harmless* game that people decided to paint as their personal bogeyman for years. It's only going to get worse because of how long the paranoia has festered. I bet you, roles will reverse and people will start fighting over wanting stuff from the 2010s back. It's going to keep looping forever, and the only smart thing left that you can do for the sake of your sanity is to not talk.
It's really like this nowadays, I can't even look at trailers without at least feeling cynical towards it. I've lacked faith in Sega awhile back probably Lost world. So my views are so low that when I saw the trailer all I was thinking about was "Will this be fun?" because we've lost the people who could make gens stages, and while update 3 for frontiers was better it's nowhere close to well made and expansive levels from unleashed or gens. I'm too broken as a person to trust companies like sega or pokemon until the game is playable because forces taught me better than to trust the "promise" of an renaissance of the adventure days story and gameplay.
Unpopular opinion forces level design is better than what most people think but based on age. One member of my family is 5 and loves sonic forces above sonic adventure 2 and even frontiers and unleashed. And why? Because they can do nearly all levels and still unlock new stuff for avatar and has way more replayability with unlocking items. However I do agree for adults it is super easy. So maybe sonic games should adjust difficulty level which changes actual level design.
Placing Forces above sa2 is rather normal, after all nothing in Forces is as bad as the mech shooting or treasure hunting gameplay and they make up more than 2/3rds of sa2.
@snakey888 In terms of my kids. They actually can't stand mech they can't beat most of them. However they can beat most Emerald search levels except later ones where they get lost and hit max timer. But my personal favorite of 3D is probably Adventure or Fronteirs. I don't think forces is a bad as people say. Because I think it hit that age demographic of 6-11 perfect.
I actually do remember the entire promotion and release cycle for Sonic Forces, as I was 16, almost 17, when we got the Sonic 25th anniversary party/live stream in 2016. Oh boy, was it magical, in both good and bad ways. I've been playing Sonic games for over a decade at this point, so after seeing the lovely Sonic Mania trailer that I absolutely lost my shit over, because I was a die hard Classic fan, the Sonic Forces teaser did initially get me excited for the game. Then, as more and more footage got released, the game just started looking worse and worse. Today, and even upon the games release, I find it to be painfully average. Not the worst Sonic game. You know, it's not like Shadow or Sonic 06 or Secret Rings. But it is also nowhere near the fun of games like the Classic games, Colors, Generations and even Unleashed. I was 18 years old when Sonic Forces was released. It really sucked too, because I was literally just off the heels, or close to it, of playing Super Mario Odyssey which I got for my birthday, and that game was 100 times more fun and engaging to play. I can't really complain too much though, as I did buy Sonic Forces with my own allowance money. So there's that.
Can I say something about myself and my evolving thoughts on video games? The older I get, the more I started to appreciate game design: the hub worlds, the levels, the courses and the characters’ mechanics. I’m not gonna act like I know them, but I appreciate them more than I do the game’s scripts, dialogues and exposition!
There was one argument thread I happened to be in where some people were expressing worry that the level design in Shadow Generations didn't look good and looked like Forces, and then one person came in and told them that there wasn't a basis for that yet because we didn't see enough. And then I replied to him with my two cents that I personally didn't think it looked bad nor necessarily good, that I just simply haven't seen enough yet to judge it at all and that I myself didn't agree with the people saying it was bad. It could be good, it could be bad, I don't know because we haven't been shown enough yet but I have no reason to hate what we've seen. And yet...apparently that wasn't enough for him, because he started chewing me out for not saying that it DEFINITITELY looked really good, he said that yes we HAD seen enough to determine that the level design was going to be great and that I was wrong and stupid for even suggesting that the possibility of it being mid could still be on the table. Me not being able to make a conclusion good or bad yet wasn't enough for him, I had to already decide it was good based just on what little we've seen, and if I didn't then I was just another of "these stupid toxic Sonic fans that everyone's sick of." Bro, I'm not even a Sonic fan lol, I'm a semi-outsider Mario fan who in the past few years has gotten into playing and enjoying Sonic games, both ones people like and dislike, and I had the most milk-toast fence-sitter take that wasn't even negative and yet that wasn't enough to satisfy his toxic positivity.
I am not too big a stickler on "level design being intercut or amazing" as long as I can have fun it's not gonna bother me. "Straight lines" can be fun and hell lots of sonic games also for the most part have "straight lines" but theres no complaints for those games. Also its probably me but I dont mind straight lines because I always wanted a sonic game where you just keep boosting for a long time. It's why in forces luminous forest is one of my fav stages because you have that 1 long hallway at the start that you can just boost and blast through at full speed.
After played through most the Cyberspace stages from Update 3, I’m willing to see what this current iteration of Sonic Team comes up with, even if I’m approaching with caution. The level design may have been with the spin dash in mind, but they do seem to be experimenting with alternative paths and shortcuts through skillful play (you can even see one in the snippet of footage). For now regardless of we each feel, all we can do is wait and see what develops.
@@sirsonic1832 NGL I was kinda worried when I saw VGC gameplay footage but I new it was already better than forces and cyberspace I think he judged a bit to soon when he saw fadel footage even I saw that VGC sucked I really broke the community with my opinion can’t wait how controversial I will be when my TH-cam channel is ready
@drfirebone1-936 People really took the wrong fears about sonic forces' level design: The problem was not the hallways, the problem was the length of the levels, the amount of automated segments and the lack of dynamic paths you could use to gain shortcuts to optimize your route.
the truth of the matter is people just want to bitch about something, anything. enjoyment is subjective, show people 5 3 second clips of the original super mario, no matter what you say it's pure speculation, pre release trailers aren't reliable as a source and neither are the whiny fanboys crying because some neckbeard redditor says "ACKTUALLY these frames are subpar so all game bad" give me a fucking break, people need to quit whining, if it's bad it's bad if it's good it's good quit imagining some bullshit trust for a company that doesn't give a shit about you, toxic positivity, toxic negativity, it's a TOXICITY problem, not a game problem, both sides are wrong is the game good, is it bad? neither, and it won't be either way so put down the flame war goggles and chill watch people play the game before buying it ffs IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO AVOID BAD GAMES
The Sonic fanbase has been getting out of hands lately. Have they?! They just gripe about things that hasn't been out yet. They can't except those to there opinions. And they can't seem to think what they want in an Sonic game.
Take it from someone who’s been a Sonic fan for about two decades now. Just like what you like. You don’t need the validation of your favorite TH-camr to like/dislike something. Life is too short. Just enjoy what makes you happy
*Sonic X Shadow Generations Footage is revealed* So are you gonna admit that ya’ll are so traumatized by Forces, the concept of a straight line scares you?
I get Forces has problems and there’s a shit ton of missed potential, but so did 06 and everyone went soft on it as of recent despite ST’s actual incompetence. It’s only fair to lose trust on Sega themselves than Sonic Team’s with the amount of shit they had to deal with. No, Hedgehog Engine 2 is better No, The Boost Formula isn’t fundamentally flawed And No, Linearity wasn’t the problem with the Boost Games.
Even the title of this video is bullshit. How is it Forces Fault for breaking the community? The Sonic Fanbase was broken LONG before this game, which everyone dogged on before release. I remember hearing about the “Linearity Complaints” during it’s wake over the course of 2017. And Forces wasn’t the first case of having negative PR before release, Shadow the Hedgehog was the only other time it’s happened. This fanbase was already broken, but no, EVERYONE singled out Forces (despite its actual problems), and gave us “Generic Frontiers” and it’s direction. I don’t hate Frontiers tbf, but if this direction proves to be successful, fine. But if SXS does even better and surpasses Frontiers, I genuinely hope the Open Zone format is ditched.
![[LIVE] BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) - DRIP | 두시탈출 컬투쇼](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UG05pxLGwzc/mqdefault.jpg)
This video was edited by SefWhiter on TH-cam!
Please let me know any critiques, praises, or suggestions you have for the editing in this video so that we can make the next one better!
I noticed a change in editing style he did a good job
the edit is really good there were no moments where i thought that it was bad or that something was off,he did a really good job and you should thank him (btw i really love your videos)
You know, I love Generations, but every now and then when play it again I realize how they kind of took a hold your hand type deal with timing your inputs, as at worst you just might have to take a different path. It doesn't have consequences like in Unleash where if you mash the wrong input, or mash at the wrong time you'll be greeted with spikes to make you want to rethink your life's decisions and restart again to do better.
Aw thanks 🙏 @@pyskotaze
W video, im glad someone understands why debates and arguements happen in the first place, if sega learn from there mistakes we wouldnt be here clashing heads on what idea is good or bad for the franchise, this vid was well thought out so more power to you
The Sonic community ruined the Sonic community, Sonic Forces just didn't help.
When Forces came out, it did have a few good ideas. It wasn’t a great game and Classic Sonic is almost the Big the Cat of that game, but it wasn’t really as bad as people made it out to be. Regardless, we were coming out of a period of years of only that Sonic Boom abomination. Quite frankly I was just happy to see that we were rid of that Sonic Boom garbage and the never ending brainless comedic act that plagued Sonic Colours and Sonic Lost World. My stance on it was, that I was gonna try to enjoy it as best as I could (and I actually did) and that I would forgive it for being an average game, if it was a step towards something good. And it was a step towards Frontiers, whether the neckbeards admit it or not.
Hard disagree. Hot take, but Sonic community is amazing and is what keeps Sonic alive. So many passionate fan games and projects! The criticisms are just a sign about how much people care. If it weren't for the rants, Movie sonic would be looking like a rejected Star Wars alien right now and wouldn't have lasted passed the firs movie. So no, the fact that Sonic Team has repeatedly disappointed fans to the point that there are civil wars within the fanbase is completely their fault.
@@DJack276 I don’t entirely disagree with you, but how many times do the Chris Chans and Sammy Sonic Fans of the community overshadow the Christian Whiteheads and ChaosX’s of the community? And yes, I agree that sometimes fan outcry can achieve great things, but most of the time it’s divided. Some people want sonic to keep going with the boost, some want the adventure formula, some want other things entirely. And most of the time these people go around attacking other fans, crapping on their excitement, while others want to silence criticism. Hell! There are already people who are moaning about Sonic X Shadow Generations over a couple of cutscenes and a couple of transitionary areas in the new content. And hot take: movie sonic still looks like ass. And the reason it was changed was because it was so bad it shocked the general public, not just sonic fans. Like I remember YongYea having a video on that particularly disastrous reveal and I’m fairly certain he’s not a sonic fan.
@@DJack276Nah the Sonic Community BEEN ruined itself, way before Forces. There was a time when Great games we had got called terrible on release just because it wasn’t the next SA2. Then there was a switch up and now they’re “underrated.” The community makes it so hard to get across what’s good for the franchise.
@@Hynotamaplease don’t put Sammy sonic and Chris Chan into the same sentence
I swear, the Sonic community acts like the fanbase wasn't completely divided LONG before Forces came out. 🙄
I mean A lot of us still weren’t connected to the “community “ at large online, we just were fans of Sonic Games.
Because it wasn't?
@@JoseGregorioValeroVillarroel *because it was?
it was but not like how it is now. This is a new level of divided
Finally somebody said it. This game divided the fandom so much and bred every debate we have about classic sonic, recycled content, quill length, writing, momentum, automaton, etc.
Seriously, if I had to name every divisive topic that started mainly because of Forces:
- Amy's characterization
- Tails' characterization
- Sonic's characterization
- Classic Sonic's design and purpose
- Reused assets
- Level Design
- Stage ranking system
- Boost gameplay
- Nostalgia Pandering
- Green Hill Zone's presence
- The agency/lack of agency of Sonic's friends without him
- Humans vs Anthros
- The existence of wisps
- Animations
- Stage Length
- Sonic being "cheesy"
- Powerscaling Infinite compared to older villains
- Dash panels
- Quill length
- Momentum
- Classic Sonic's music
The game traumatized everyone.
@@somepenguin508 and to top it all of it wasted a potentially great new villain imo
@@galanga21890 A villain that requires reading a prequel comic, playing DLC and looking up a Ian Flynn QnA in order to get the full context/backstory of.
… I thought everyone hated this game tf you talking about
@@RYH141 you haven't been around the right circles then. The game has 'mixed' reviews for a reason.
For me, the Sonic Forces trailers became increasingly concerning when they kept showing the same footage over and over and over and over again. The town plaza in destruction, green hill with giant robots, sonic posing after jumping. For me that was a red flag that they weren't confident in showing anything else of the game, aside from a Classic Sonic gameplay short and gameplay of the final Shadow level.
The sonic community destroyed their own fanbase … everyone seems to still have ptsd from forces
PTSD over a damn game. This community is both hilarious and pathetic.
@@thedredayshow9246 lol chill on the community now - actually nvm you are right but what I’m tryna say is the Sonic fanbase ruined itself. And while Sonic personally fell off for me as a gaming franchise I do love the comics, movies and shows it has
Honestly yeah sonic forces sucked a$$. But at least I've gotten over it
@@johnsonsharon81 yea sonic forces had so much potential man Sega really a troll for that 😂 it’s kinda funny when you look back at it
Regarding radical highway looking like a straight line if you look closely you can see black doom flying around in the background and there’s a scene later that has you flinging gun robots into black doom who is shielding so I think the whole radical highway section is a boss chase rather than a actual level which would explain the straight lines
Give that editor a medal for using 5 second clips of all games which makes the video interactive by making me think "Huh would I judge that game just by seeing that?"
Brilliant editing, I love stuff like that
Something I feel is worth pointing out specifically is that linear doesn't mean bad. Unleashed has pretty good level design with fun daytime levels and the split pathway options are very, very limited in that game. Generations does a slightly, SLIGHTLY better job with split pathways but still generally amounts to its levels being bendy straws. Even SA2's speed levels were generally pretty linear, and yet that game has a legendary status amongst the Sonic community. What's more important isn't how linear the level design is, but how engaging it manages to be. In Unleashed and Generations for example, there's a genuine challenge in timing your movements to efficiently deal with upcoming hazards quickly and efficiently, the thrill comes from how quickly you can finish the levels, not how many different paths you can take from point A to point B. Or to put it another way: The thrill is in mastering the level to the point you can speedrun it and best your own best times, or those of your friends or even an online leaderboard.
The problem with Forces isn't that the stages are too linear, it's that they're too short and unengaging. They rely too much on basic platforming and don't contain the same reflex based challenges that were present in Unleashed and Generations. Colors is kinda smack dab in the middle, occasionally relying too much on basic platforming but still never quite entirely forgetting what makes boost stages fun to begin with.
Forces didn't break the fans, the fans were already so broken by then that they couldn't accept a game that was relatively better than the games right before (LW & Boom) unless that game was going to be perfect. You can blame Sega's marketing all you want, but at the end of the day nothing that happened with Forces was generally all the different from any other Sonic game we pretend is flawless. The fans just weren't mature enough or aware enough of the franchise's fraught history with game development to understanding of any of it. It's the same reason why even when Sonic makes banger content (Frontiers, Prime, the movies, etc) the fans WILL tear it apart even if deep down they enjoy what they saw. No one hates Sonic more than the fans that "love" him.
What fascinates me most about the reused cyberspace levels was the Adventure 2 ones like Green Forest and Sky Rail. See, I don't think they were being lazy with those ones. I think they were TESTING if Adventure-ish level design could still work, if people could even play Green Forest nowadays and enjoy it. Because apparently that was a question that needed answering.
That's true.
Those were the best stages honestly. With a few from the more modern games.
What I've kind of been preaching since Frontiers released.
Guess how well that went.
I think aside from feeling soulless thanks to Green Hill everywhere, they even played better, with less jank. I could see Adventure 2 remake that plays better than the original. Well, aside from the odd limitation of not being able to homing attack offscreen targets resulting in difficulties with propeller springs from Sky Rail, but that's just a minor issue.
Sky rail and Green Forest were both more enjoyable than the original imo
Sonic fans have been divided since the series start, and it’s never gonna change
Ey that is me thanks Matt I’m glad that you gave me a shout out I’m a big fan and I’m about to join the sonic TH-cam community and become a sonic tuber because you guys inspire me but something else I do think that Sonic team can make good level design again because of update 2&3 with the spindash and the adventure level design and momentum physics but something else I wanna see is a new hedgehog engine what surpasses hedgehog engine 1
The hedgehog engine 2 already is better than 1
I think there's a bit of a misconception about the hedgehog engine here... It's just about the lighting, not the graphics per se or art style.
@@wut940 Yes! Some people thinks that the hedgehog engine is for the psyshics/the engine, but it is like you said, just the lighting
Kinda what it is sonic unleashed and generations had strong water effects what causes the games to drop frames and the hedgehog engine 1 had also strong lightning for the PS3 and Xbox 360 maybe it was Sonic team fault for not optimizing the engine but those 2 games had better boost physics what send enemies flying and the boost was faster so I would like to the next sonic game to capture more of those original games or surpass it and give the open world more of a Sonic GT feel with the levels
I'm curious if Shadow Generations will have the spin dash at launch. It was released late last year for Frontiers and this game has had to be in development for at least 2 years. I could see it being added later after launch.
Dude… you realize the sonic community has been ruined before forces even came out, it’s always like this
Forces was straw that broke the camel's back
@@KudoRedfox thought it was sonic boom
@@evantheblackknight8546it was actually Sonic 06
@@KudoRedfox
No, it was 06. And it wasn't just the Sonic Community either.
Sonic fans see any sort of linearity and scream “forces level design” like bruh really
I’m just glad we are getting more Shadow and Generations content.
Also if it’s good or bad. I’m happy that the community will make more fan games a few months after it releases.
I can't say Forces was the cause of that divide. That's the same divide you'll see in any fan community. Plus, Sonic lost the trust of fans waaaaay before Forces.
Id say what frustrates me more really. Is the fact that no one that no one bring up specifically, is that the Final Horizon cyberspace stages are actually much more expansive and better designed, than the stages prior to that update so I expect the stage quality to be on par with the Horizon stages at best and at worst they won’t be as sophisticated as Generations stages.
So Im 🤞confident that they’ll be better than Forces and Frontiers pre-horizon cyberspace stages since Kishimoto has taken the feedback to heart, so he’ll bring that new design philosophy to this campaign too.
Is Kishimoto even involved with this game?
@@SchlagageulNo
Tbh when I played forces in 2017, I thought what we got was fine, my main issue was that it felt way too short, I wasn't necessarily "burned" by it
That's probably why I'm not as critical of these trailers even if it did end up being forces quality,
and the fact I'm the least observant person on planet earth
Sonic Forces did not ruin the community. We did.
It's just a game on a disk. WE were the ones who decided to become aggressive, obsessive, elitist, overprotective, etc. WE decided to send this fanbase into a nosedive, casting shame on "classic" Sonic (the original Sonic who made the series famous), denying the legitimacy of anything not Japanese for some reason, spending several years arguing about trivial nothings like quill length and muzzle curve, permitting and even encouraging degenerate behavior, spreading misinformation/slander about Takashi Iizuka, Morio Kishimoto, and Jun Senoue, all while generally mistreating any fans or devs involved with the 2010's games, just as the classic elitists did with the 2000's decades ago.
Forces was just a mediocre video game. Not even as bad as Shadow or 2006. The fanbase has no one to blame but themselves.
@@jskywalker58
"we" as a general term, obviously.
@@vividcolorandrichaudio6134you can say you love pancakes but some maroon comes in like "so you hate waffles???"
Anyways I agree with your comment, it's a video game, love it or hate it but taking it seriously in anyway is your own prerogative, and honestly I find it quite funny and sad in a way
Something about this got me thinking. If they did remake Sa2 in modern graphics. People would say it looks like Sonic Forces level design.
And if they show open world part of it, they will say it looks like Frontier. Mostly.
But the movement would be different changing the design philosophy
Which would circle back to forces
@@Modiecus literally, sonic adventure 2 is just a straight line in almost all of it's speed type level design, the only reason people would like it is because of it's reputation after a RE-RELEASE on gamecube.
@@Sir_GrimReaper Hold up, Sa2 level design is complementary to the physics. Forces physics suck.
I had a similar thought about the bad level design thing But tbf in the Pre release of Forces people rationalised the level design hard
So I believe both sides of the argument hold Validity
You're definitely right here. I found some enjoyment out of Sonic Forces and Frontiers, so I'm not too worried about the Shadow level design in Sonic X Shadow Generations, but I understand the concerns despite the little amount of gameplay we've seen. I'm not that guy to say "oh, Sonictubers are back at it again being negative" because I just get nothing out of saying that. When having discussions, I try to keep it as civil and respectful as possible, and maybe put aside my personal bias when needed. Great video, Matt! I hope you're enjoying talking about Sonic again.
Great you like automation
@@dreamsdeep1076 'some enjoyment' is probably the most backhanded compliment you can give to a game and you're out here acting like the man is defending the game with his life.
I found plenty of enjoyment out of the Cyberspace levels. Finding the many ways I can speedrun the level even faster has became an addiction all on it's own.
Forces, I mean, what speedrunning? Level design is so bloody limited.
@@dreamsdeep1076Me when I hate people having a different opinion than me
@@LoliconSamalik i always enjoyed speedrunning Forces.
Actually, there are cool skips on many of the levels(I just saw a few skips from an Egg Gate speedrun)
Besides, I have always loved Forces. I played it for 350 to 400 hours.
No, I wont change my mind on ForceLevels. The classic sonic Levels are the only one that has actual level design. Doesn't mean there isn't any cool skips you can pull off in the Avatar and Modern Sonic levels.
However, I still think its mediocre(along with Frontiers, and most of Unleashed!)
Btw, I made it too the top 100 on many of the levels(on the rankings, for Xbox)
Sonic forces discussion was basically the seed of toxic positivity. I wasn’t a fan until after the release of forces and mania, and looking at comments and discussions are just draining. I’ve experienced toxic positivity once and it’s not fun even looking at this stuff just puts me down. I feel like people aren’t cautious enough and take things at face value, frontiers is so evident of that, despite being received as good(even I think it’s great)the issues from the start are still there, the game looks exactly the same with no real changes. I don’t think being positive is bad but there’s a certain point where we just hype/gas up something instead of looking closely even if it’s 5 seconds. This is another great video talking about how discussion have devolved in the community and hopefully one day we can all agree to disagree or not act so hostile.
I remember i preordered sonic forces and sold it back pre-owned the same day. Something about it immediately felt awful within the first hour of gameplay. The fact that it left this much of an impact on everyone who played it is crazy.
The Sonic Community is the reason why the Sonic Community is shit.
That isn’t the fault of a video game.
The games since 98 being bad is not helping either.
@@grandewill9967 matter of opinion. Most games since then weren’t objectively bad.
"Most": Rush, Colors and Generations.@@Bornagainvillain
@@grandewill9967you skipping over gens,heroes,unleashed,colors doesnt mean sonic never had any good 3d games either
Unleashed is one of the worst 3d platformers ever. Colors is mediocre and Generations is at best decent.@@alptugraakan7490
And when the world needed him most, he vanished
I agree, Sonic Forces really was the last nail in the coffin for many fans after being disappointed by Sonic Boom and Lost World. And it was a pretty big nail at that. Rn I am cautiously optimistic about Sonic x Shadow Generations because Frontiers was decent and I had a lot of fun with it.
@@jskywalker58it could have been better if Sega hadn't fucked it up
The sonic community ruined the sonic community before it was even a community
Remember When people hyped up Colors Ultimate: *literal moment before disaster*, lol. If there ever was a root for all Sonic's problems it would be Forces, as most problems people see in recent sonic games literally originated there, showing us sega is either too stubborn, or too deaf when hearing the general sonic community's disdain for Forces. Which is interesting because when people openly stated there dislike for 06 they were quick to change direction, or how Unleashed gameplay mechanics never showed there face since Generations.
No. These people will forget but thenproceed to call anyone who brought it up a "toxic fan who hate everything Sonic" anyway.
Sega and Sonic team has a long history of siding with their critics (IGN, Gamespot, Meta Critic, etc.) not their fans
Tbh i'm not worried about the shadow portion because forces was the only boost game with bad level design. Frontiers' original stages (e.g. 4-2 and 4-4) felt like they were trying to be adventure stages and not boost stages which is why I class cyberspace as trying to be like SA1/SA2 than boost since the stages taken from SA2 and put into Frontiers feel better to play than the gens/unleashed stages put into Frontiers. The whole gimmick for Forces' levels were that you "didn't have to worry about complex game controls" hence why they were basically on auto-pilot. So I believe Shadow gens will have better level design as there is more examples of the boost formula having well designed stages than badly designed ones
same, i'm mainly worried about how the game will control after the colors ultimate catastrophe
I played the hell outta1 & 2 and didnt even realize they were homages besides the vehicles lol
@@ADuckInBlackDon’t need to worry about that. This remaster is being made by sonic team and not being outsourced like colours ultimate.
And then there are Final Horizon Cyberspace stages which are among the best stages in the series. They are what give me hope.
@@Gnidelyeah MOST of the level design engage me a lot so I hope those can be put in their mind as well
I'm pretty excited for Sonic X Shadow Generations regardless of what we saw in the trailer. But yeah, Forces really did fuck a lot of Sonic fans up. It's quite crazy that Sonic Team ever released a game like that. But I'm kinda happy that Sonic Team has been learning from it in one way or another.
This is why I hate Forces
That's the thing though, they HAVEN'T learned. Even after Forces, we still ended up with unpolished garbage like Colors Ultimate, Sonic Origins, Frontiers. Even Superstars, a game that I liked over all of the previous ones I listed, still ended up being half-baked and heavily flawed.
Sega cannot learn. They are incapable of learning. They spent 20, almost 30 years doing the exact same song and dance, entire decades of falling into the same bad habits over and over and over and OVER AGAIN. It's baffling how anyone even has any faith in them left, it's an outright abusive relationship.
@@felixdaniels37Frontiers was goated tho
Dude sonic team rarely learns anything this is the franchise with boom 06 and forces
@kit_ts6087 it's the most average game I've ever played sure by sonic standards that's rare but don't act like it's a good game just because it works
I had forgotten that the Sonic Cycle was so *crazy*.
I always seem to be on the other side of the Sonic Forces debate. That weird side that shouldn't even exist. And yet I remember a little of what was on my mind leading up to Sonic Force's release: my reactions to "Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric." I had enjoyed Sonic Lost World's twists while my friend was baffled by it; whereas, the Wii U game of Sonic Boom was so confusing an un-fun. It was called a repeat of Sonic 06's exact faults of rushing a poorly optimized game to market.
Just like you mentioned, I was burned by Sonic Boom; no wonder that Sonic Forces seemed like a breath of fresh air in comparison. I could listen to the hype and understand that the Sonic Cycle would continue as normal. I didn't have to have a good Sonic game to enjoy a Sonic game. (Maybe I was the target demographic? That's kinda weird. I'm old. )
Even back then, people were defending Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric. I still don't understand it, but maybe that's just a part of the Sonic Cycle that I don't comprehend?
The fact that we won’t truly know what we’ll get until the game releases is exactly why people are saying don’t judge based off of 5 seconds. This mostly seems like a problem with the trailers themselves. The trailers will always try to make a game or any product look better than it really is so you can buy it.
No matter what, Sonic Fans will always find something to complain about.
Its insane,even with good games these people cant just shut up and let people enjoy it.
@@MuriloAraújo-j2x I know! They will always try to nitpick something even if it’s from a good game
@@alexc8726 they are like the cinema sins of Gaming.
Then why Sega keeps giving us?
@@MuriloAraújo-j2xidk the fanbase was pretty calm when mania came out.
I feel like because of the "Shitting on Sonic is cool" era, Sonic will just be one of those franchises and communities that'll be excessively laughed at, dogpiled on, and slandered no matter what for till the end of time. And this is coming from
Personally, im keeping an open mind for the shadow portion. I definitely get cyberspace vibes, but i want to reserve my judgment until the next full trailer or when the game comes out. So im currently sat in between "could be alright" or "could be awful" crowd.
It's definitely fair for people to judge games from trailers. For example, the Silent Hill 2 remake trailer didn't impress me that much considering its a remake. Something just felt missing? And I dont play Silent Hill games.
I typically find it better to watch a sonic trailer and then discuss it with a group of friends. It's a way healthier conversation.
Love that mindset you have with the friends. That's a really good idea, instead of taking our opinions to strangers with different mindsets we should do it with those that care to have a conversation
Completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not nearly around as much as I used to be for Sonic stuff but now I just take it all with a grain of salt and try not to get too riled up about it because it's going to be whatever they decide to put it out as.
Also, awesome editing. Enjoy the video as always. Have a nice day everyone.
Honestly feel like people are way too harsh on cyberspace
Its just a small break from the main game with is exploring the starfall islands
Yes it repeats level design and appearence
But i dont care its not the main focus of the game for me its like saying that sonic 3 sucks because the blue ball stages suck
The problem is, the main game isn't really any better.
This community was ruined before forces
As someone whose been through it...
Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations only restored about a fifth of the trust that 06 lost. And then Sonic Boom and Lost World took over half of that back away.
This bickering has been going on a loooooooooong time. And Forces re-enforced it to a horrible degree.
I’m an Adventure Era guy, and seeing that they were daring enough to bring back Black Doom piques my interest.
Generations and Unleashed are great; Gens, prior to Mania, being the last game I played through keeping up with the series.
Most important thing is criticism and how many people, not just the Sonic community, don’t understand it well. They think it’s an attack on the beloved art or subject they love and they go crazy. I think judging this game before release is how we get interested. It’s the same with movies, shows, music etc. any art of any kind can be judged by the little bit we have. I don’t care if people love a sonic game or hate one, as long as what they say adds merit. It adds a reason to either enjoy or a reason to be concerned. Me personally I kinda don’t care about the game I didn’t like frontiers so I have to just hope it’s not that when the game comes out
I won’t lie, these days, I just watch Sonic trailers, and have no opinion until it comes out. Because I learned a long time ago it’s just not worth it anymore to get excited or upset at trailers in general anymore.
But I understand what you’re talking about, as the Forces trailer at the time got me pumped for it, only to play the game and be disappointed in the end. My personal opinion of course as I don’t agree with everything you said, but there were stuff I do agree it, and I respect opinions from both sides of the argument. In other words, this was a well thought out video.
The defensiveness over pre-release criticism bothers me so much because I was there when Forces was coming out. I thought it looked bad from the very beginning. Of course, tons of people got mad about it. I've seen this same pattern over and over for years, and it's the same every single time. There will always be some childish defense, there will always be a way to move the goal posts further. It sucks.
Of course I want the games to be good, but when all they show is bad, why would I get attached to an imaginary version of the game that hypothetically will be good? That's not what the developers actually showed me.
Sonic fans these days love potential.
Sonic fanbase is so divided Sega is not interested in outsourcing those style of Sonic games to translate in other projects. Sonic can really split these gameplay mechanics into spin offs really. With the reception that is Sonic Frontiers just sends me concern for how much they are gonna take that into fruition like for example the visuals being too realistic and not belonging in Sonic is an opinion I don’t agree and was happy to see Sonic take that next level leap in the franchise overall.
I'm not worried about the game because of a 5 seconds clip of gameplay, I'm worried about the game because the level design director thingy (forgot his name sorry) is the same one who was working on Sonic forces and it was his idea to make Sonic an unstoppable bullet with very linear level disign.... THIS, is what I'm worried about
True, but he also worked on many great games before then. The only issue with him would whether his philosophy he had there was JUST what he wanted for Forces, or if it's what he thinks Sonic should always be going forward. But he's done great stuff in the past.
@@legoboy7107 I really want this game to knock it out of the park, I'm so tired of the "7/10"
@@OMR3333 jyunpei ootsu? Regardless I believe level designers typically create levels based on what the character controller can handle. Sonic in forces can barely turn at full speed, has no drift and every time he jumps he's basically locked on a path.
I would imagine that would force level designers to make linear levels to compensate.
I honestly didn’t think Sonic Forces gameplay had anything especially wrong with it. It did have a few frustrating elements here and there, but otherwise it just felt like a lesser version of Sonic Generations.
My gripe with Sonic Forces was with its story, especially with Infinite who could have been an excellent villain and final boss, but turns out he’s just another one of Eggman’s lackeys who lost his shit because Shadow called him weak. Tails was characterized completely wrong. The Tails I know would never cower before Chaos 0, especially after his arc in Adventure 1 and 2. Sonic didn’t even appear distressed after 6 months of apparent torture, and classic Sonic had no business even being there. Instead of the custom avatar shit, couldn’t they add additional playable characters like Tails, Knuckles and Shadow? They didn’t even incorporate the chaos emeralds into the story.
I miss Adventure style stories in Sonic games. Give me a good story, with real stakes on the line, and I won’t care if the gameplay isn’t a masterpiece as long as it’s enjoyably playable.
Shadow is playable in the DLC in Forces.
I don't understand why it's so difficult to just MAKE A GOOD SONIC GAME.
I want a remake of Sonic Adventures and Adventures 2 personally xD
Would it kill them to make f*cking curves or slopes better again?
@@bowtiefries or just the general handling of sonic :3 He's SO hard to control in comparison to idk knuckles, tails and amy were all better than him in the last sonic game that was released - sonic superstars or somethin like that. xD
Frontiers was a good attempt but i found the world and story empty and boring tbh
To be fair, Lost World is by no means a bad game; not buggy, fun to play, great soundtrack and visually pleasing, it's all around a solid game.
But people hate it anyway, so Sonic Team decides to bring back Nostalgia Bait the broken physics hog because people loved Generations where he also happened to be so they put 2 and 2 together and got W, they're not right, far from it, but whenever they do make a good game Unleashed, Lost World, 3D Blast, people pan it while singing praises for the bad ones like Sonic Heroes, or hyping up the bad features like 2D Sonic in 3D Sonic's games.
You can deny that last part, but when Forces was announced everyone was preaching "ClAsSiC sOnIc Is BaCk!" as they did with Generations. They hate it now, but they'll probably do the same again next time SEGA does it.
@@DekkarJrAll characters in superstars control exactly the same, except for each character’s air action.
I played the lost world last year and I thought it was okay. Better than forces but I am not a big fan of the level design. When you’re playing as a character as fast as sonic in such tuber level design it gets disoriented
i'm gonna be honest Forces shouldn't have even BEEN bad, everything was going in it's favour like the Boost gameplay already perfected with Generations, Sonic Mania being one of the greatest and well received Sonic games released alongside Forces, the *seemingly* darker storyline (from what we've gathered at the time), and basically everyone coming together to get hyped
it's shocking that the game turned out the way it did
its like having the recipe and ingredients being put out for you but you still manage to somehow mess up
I think that's why so many Sonic fans seem to basically consider it the worst one in spirit. The game was Sonic Team trying to play it safe, but it still turned out like it did. It was Sonic Team aiming for the floor and MISSING. It's kind of hard to have much faith in the developer manning a platformer franchise when they can't even make 2D platforming not feel bad.
Don’t worry Sega will always find a way to screw things up for a sonic game.
Please understand that SANIC is canon.
Love how Forces was too bad to a point where people worry about games having similar level design to it based off like 5 seconds. And then people get in fights over it
I want more grounded and creative level designs, like the ones in unleashed, stages being linear is kinda hard coded into sonic, but they could still feel organic,alive, have side paths, secrets, or hell, even a reason for you to stop and admire the scenery
I think we have to give chance for sxsg because sega and sonic team want to make that franchise bigger then ever bigger then sonic frontiers and they just need focus on level design
Lol 06 ruined the community and fandom before forces was even thought of, sonic fans are too varied and polarizing in the west and that's never going too change, I love sonic but I despise the sonic fandom
TBH I thought Frontiers level design was mid, but the final horizion stages gave me a lot of optimism that the team knows how to make good levels that aren't running on a straight line. Now if they know how to make proper quest progression... (seriously, why was it that you could go the entire DLC without even touching cyberspace even once?) fortunately, Generations has a minimal hub so that won't be an issue.
There probably are two looming issue with Shadow, though, in lieu of it being an extra campaign instead of a new standalone release
1. level reuse is probably inevitable unless they think it's so expansive that they will charge $70 for a remaster. Honestly I expect them to throw $60 at it a la Bowser's Fury and that will be the usual gamer debate on $$$, but the main point is that Generations isn't a long game to begin with based around re-using levels and I doubt Shadow will be more than 3 hours at most. As Frontiers showed, the level design can still be fun even if cheap, but I know that's going to be a grinding point. looks vs fun (hell, it's a debate happening in several communities), and there will be no right answer nor winner TBH.
2. Thrill may not be quite as high as Frontiers for obvious reasons. It does seem like we'll get a bit of it given the Biolizard sneak peek and even that cool warpy effect with Black Doom, but TBH a lot of Frontiers was carried by its boss battle spectacle. That was going to be hard to do even with a full release, and this is once again an add-on campaign. If the levels aren't pristine then we're probably going to head to more of the same of the usual sonic debates.
Sonic's definitely been like this for even longer than Forces, but I agree Forces was a breaking point in the community.
I like where you're coming from here. I guess we just gotta hope Sega can make things better in the future so we don't gotta go through all this discourse every time.
SefWhiter's editing really makes the video feel very fresh, I'm a big fan lol
Same thing Happened with Frontiers. We got 5 Minutes of actual final Product Gameplay. Everyone was worried. We were convinced it was an “Early Build” and snappy edited Trailers sold the game in the end Despite the actual Final Product Lacking So Much!
Did forces taint the series, yes, however, fans (as usual) are overreacting with the 5 seconds of gameplay we got of the shadow portion. There was a literal split pathway in the part we saw.
For a second I thought the title said _Frontiers_ instead of Forces, and I was very confused because I thought most people liked Frontiers lol. This makes _much_ more sense. XD
Fun fact. Before you joined. Forces actually had 2 sides. The side you were talking about is the defense squad. But most of us went against them. I think sam procrastination is the leader of that lol
The Goat, he's the reason I'm so big on Sonic. Heck why I played Frontiers
Actually the shitty defense squad felt stronger. I was getting a lot of shit over it. But they all went silent and switched sides after that disappointing game released. 😂
No, the old saying goes "where there's smoke, they pinch back"
As for my interpretation of the issue, five seconds isn't enough to form a definitive opinion. However, that isn't to say that you can't at least form a small one. As for me, I'll be skipping the game about Shadow from Sonic X because the past two remasters that were made to capitalise on the movie were of subpar quality.
I don't own Twitter or any social media so I like what I like, but I love channels like you Matt that give me an inside scoop of what's going on. I agree that we should all respect each others opinions because whether the outcome is good or bad one is going to happen.
A nintendo partner showcase is supposedly coming next week. If a new Sonadow Gens trailer is there then it's absolutely gonna be judgement day for the say of the level design of Shadow's section
I hope it's more like cyberspace than gens/unleashed, I actually felt like I was playing a 3D platformer instead of a reaction game, at least in the original stages like 4-4.
As long as it's not like Forces to some extent, then we're good
I prefer the opposite. I hated Frontiers as a whole.
@Sonic171K i also perfer the opposite i actually did not like sonic frontiers level design because it didnt feel that fun to play with sonic's physics. i just didnt care as much cause i know the game was more focused on open world
Meanwhile cyberspace levels that are lifted straight from gens/unleashed be like:
I can say as an older fan, that older Sonic games made quite a few of us very hesitant to trust Sonic games. The two big ones for me were '06 and Unleashed. It's blasphemy to the more modern group of fans, but I considered Unleashed to be one of the worst Sonic games I ever played. Even now I probably wouldn't play it if I was given it for free.
That was one of the most boring experiences I've ever had playing a video game
Did you play the Wii version?
Imo another argument that could be made is that the trailer is literally made INTENTIONALLY to showcase the game. The editors of the trailer SPECIFICALLY grabbed those particular clips because they thought they represented the product best therefore any criticisms or concerns are completely valid.
You are incredibly tame in comparison to some certain sonic tubers i saw vidoes of. Some apparently threw a big fuss about the graphics being the same and the shadows being slightly off. Like really? Out of all the things they could have said this was their concern? at least you gave us valid concerns! Unlike them who gave us concerns that is essentially non existent 🤣
My biggest issue with Cyberspace that could theoretically affect this(Other relevant issues do not look to be in here) is that certain actions in the air were for some reason capped to only being usable once without getting to the ground to refresh. That just sucked, I actually hope that if it comes down to it, we are closer to Forces than Cyberspace in that regard.
And really, what is the worst that can happen? It being bad? Then the only major change is that they tripled the price on Gens and our day is not really ruined.
10:18 *Looks at what happened last time. And the time before, actually* Yeah, I'd rather not go into this. All to be said is that I'm not trusting the community at this stage.
I’m just going to be real here, the sonic community ruined themselves.
Good talk, Matt. Forces did give people trailer PTSD. Frontiers' really proved this point.
Remember going through all this back in 06? That one gave Sega PTSD. I think that it was that fear of doing anything new that ultimately led up to Forces.
Forces has a special place in my heart since it was my first Sonic game but I do agree with you, it has hurt the franchise real bad and Sonic Team is just lacking in gameplay
Hot take, but I believe you can show something that looks amazing in five seconds. Heck, you can show something amazing in a screenshot.
Liked this video man, I'm in total concordance with the points that you gave in this topic.
I think that yeah, it's to soon to criticize a product if the provider didn't even told you anything about it besides it's a chips bag (being the chips bag the gameplay of shadow portion in SxS generations (like only have boost formula)) and it's also correct not trusting him 'cause all the products that the promised you to be good end up being deplorable.
And that, when we need to say the chips are awful we tell him
6:46 this is why all the original stages in cyberspace are way better it’s because they were made with frontiers controls in mind
I was right about this for a long ass time.
Forces practically destroyed any little bit of 'civil' discussion that could ever be had in the community. It got folks to turn on games like Colors, pinning blame on it for 'everything that went wrong' and for causing the dreaded META ERA (still a stupid name btw), things that weren't actually Colors' fault. Fans felt like it was their fucking duty to meticulously pick apart every single thing about the current state of Sonic, whilst gassing up what they *personally preferred* as 'the objective gold standard'. Their intense paranoia about 'things looking bad' ended up causing them to act like jaded 60yos who think they know so much better then the struggling devs who literally had to fight for extra time on their last 3D outing. It bred nothing but hostility, people got harassed over stupid shit like the blue rat's HAIR LENGTH.
Onlookers on Twitter were very much right to take the piss out of people fighting over this, cuz it WAS stupid. You weren't allowed to like Classic Sonic, or the Wisps, or hell sometimes just Boost games in general without some miserable fuckwad coming in and spewing about how those things had 'done so much damage to the series'. It didn't help that some people just chose to follow the word of youtubers and influencers like it was fucking gospel, leading to even more discourse online that felt like a fucking joke. Remember 'Santiago', anyone? 'Kino Broshima'?
The moment I stopped taking discussion seriously and just left it behind for good was when people were unironically going '06 was actually pretty good looking back' either out of nostalgia or because of 'what it could've been', and that was when I felt that any sort of discussion in this fandom could not be saved. I personally don't care if folks are nostalgic for that game now or are tired of the same old IGN jokes that only get brought up by the fans now, like the game if you want, but it earned its scorn for good reason. People trying to assemble this narrative that the game that was absolutely slammed by everyone on the planet is now 'a hidden gem' only made me think about how we got here in the first place, and it was all because of a very boring, bland, yet objectively *harmless* game that people decided to paint as their personal bogeyman for years. It's only going to get worse because of how long the paranoia has festered. I bet you, roles will reverse and people will start fighting over wanting stuff from the 2010s back. It's going to keep looping forever, and the only smart thing left that you can do for the sake of your sanity is to not talk.
Idk i love both colors and forces and think they are way more similar than the average Sonic fan is willing to admit
It's really like this nowadays, I can't even look at trailers without at least feeling cynical towards it. I've lacked faith in Sega awhile back probably Lost world. So my views are so low that when I saw the trailer all I was thinking about was "Will this be fun?" because we've lost the people who could make gens stages, and while update 3 for frontiers was better it's nowhere close to well made and expansive levels from unleashed or gens. I'm too broken as a person to trust companies like sega or pokemon until the game is playable because forces taught me better than to trust the "promise" of an renaissance of the adventure days story and gameplay.
Unpopular opinion forces level design is better than what most people think but based on age. One member of my family is 5 and loves sonic forces above sonic adventure 2 and even frontiers and unleashed. And why? Because they can do nearly all levels and still unlock new stuff for avatar and has way more replayability with unlocking items. However I do agree for adults it is super easy. So maybe sonic games should adjust difficulty level which changes actual level design.
Placing Forces above sa2 is rather normal, after all nothing in Forces is as bad as the mech shooting or treasure hunting gameplay and they make up more than 2/3rds of sa2.
@snakey888
In terms of my kids. They actually can't stand mech they can't beat most of them. However they can beat most Emerald search levels except later ones where they get lost and hit max timer. But my personal favorite of 3D is probably Adventure or Fronteirs. I don't think forces is a bad as people say. Because I think it hit that age demographic of 6-11 perfect.
how is he gaining subs yet he hasnt uploaded in 4 months
Sad. SEGA has no one to blame but themselves for the hole they've dug themselves into.
I actually do remember the entire promotion and release cycle for Sonic Forces, as I was 16, almost 17, when we got the Sonic 25th anniversary party/live stream in 2016. Oh boy, was it magical, in both good and bad ways. I've been playing Sonic games for over a decade at this point, so after seeing the lovely Sonic Mania trailer that I absolutely lost my shit over, because I was a die hard Classic fan, the Sonic Forces teaser did initially get me excited for the game.
Then, as more and more footage got released, the game just started looking worse and worse. Today, and even upon the games release, I find it to be painfully average. Not the worst Sonic game. You know, it's not like Shadow or Sonic 06 or Secret Rings. But it is also nowhere near the fun of games like the Classic games, Colors, Generations and even Unleashed.
I was 18 years old when Sonic Forces was released. It really sucked too, because I was literally just off the heels, or close to it, of playing Super Mario Odyssey which I got for my birthday, and that game was 100 times more fun and engaging to play. I can't really complain too much though, as I did buy Sonic Forces with my own allowance money. So there's that.
hey, shadow is a perfectly fine game. It's just a bit stupid plot wise and the missions can suck at time
Can I say something about myself and my evolving thoughts on video games? The older I get, the more I started to appreciate game design: the hub worlds, the levels, the courses and the characters’ mechanics. I’m not gonna act like I know them, but I appreciate them more than I do the game’s scripts, dialogues and exposition!
A scar for life as they say…
There was one argument thread I happened to be in where some people were expressing worry that the level design in Shadow Generations didn't look good and looked like Forces, and then one person came in and told them that there wasn't a basis for that yet because we didn't see enough. And then I replied to him with my two cents that I personally didn't think it looked bad nor necessarily good, that I just simply haven't seen enough yet to judge it at all and that I myself didn't agree with the people saying it was bad. It could be good, it could be bad, I don't know because we haven't been shown enough yet but I have no reason to hate what we've seen.
And yet...apparently that wasn't enough for him, because he started chewing me out for not saying that it DEFINITITELY looked really good, he said that yes we HAD seen enough to determine that the level design was going to be great and that I was wrong and stupid for even suggesting that the possibility of it being mid could still be on the table. Me not being able to make a conclusion good or bad yet wasn't enough for him, I had to already decide it was good based just on what little we've seen, and if I didn't then I was just another of "these stupid toxic Sonic fans that everyone's sick of." Bro, I'm not even a Sonic fan lol, I'm a semi-outsider Mario fan who in the past few years has gotten into playing and enjoying Sonic games, both ones people like and dislike, and I had the most milk-toast fence-sitter take that wasn't even negative and yet that wasn't enough to satisfy his toxic positivity.
I am not too big a stickler on "level design being intercut or amazing" as long as I can have fun it's not gonna bother me. "Straight lines" can be fun and hell lots of sonic games also for the most part have "straight lines" but theres no complaints for those games. Also its probably me but I dont mind straight lines because I always wanted a sonic game where you just keep boosting for a long time. It's why in forces luminous forest is one of my fav stages because you have that 1 long hallway at the start that you can just boost and blast through at full speed.
Ah yes you love when you get little input in game. Dash like a manic. No wonder forces appeal to you
@@dreamsdeep1076I still remember that interview 😂
After played through most the Cyberspace stages from Update 3, I’m willing to see what this current iteration of Sonic Team comes up with, even if I’m approaching with caution. The level design may have been with the spin dash in mind, but they do seem to be experimenting with alternative paths and shortcuts through skillful play (you can even see one in the snippet of footage). For now regardless of we each feel, all we can do is wait and see what develops.
We STILL talking about Sonic Forces?
We all know Sonic takes the occasional dive in quality only to rise up again. Look at 2006.
At least we've shut up about Rise of Lyric. Maybe because almost nobody played that game thanks to Wii U exclusivity.
When did it rise again? two average games?
As someone that loved the Adventure series, Generations and Frontiers I am more than excited for more Shadow.
Looks like we are here again
Lmao its hilarious how this was literally bros last video
Fr this dude can’t keep forces out of his mouth can’t believe he legit thinks shadow gens looks like forces lmao
@@sirsonic1832 NGL I was kinda worried when I saw VGC gameplay footage but I new it was already better than forces and cyberspace I think he judged a bit to soon when he saw fadel footage even I saw that VGC sucked I really broke the community with my opinion can’t wait how controversial I will be when my TH-cam channel is ready
@drfirebone1-936 People really took the wrong fears about sonic forces' level design: The problem was not the hallways, the problem was the length of the levels, the amount of automated segments and the lack of dynamic paths you could use to gain shortcuts to optimize your route.
the games since forces have been ok, y'all are babies
Ngl after your twitter meltdown about iTS juSt LiKE FoRCes i kinda hope you dont come back if im being deadass
Crying bc he isn't excited😂
Can't handle an opinion?
Sonic fans when somebody has a differing opinion from them:
For me, I actually like Forces, so I don’t mind the level design all that much.
the truth of the matter is people just want to bitch about something, anything.
enjoyment is subjective, show people 5 3 second clips of the original super mario, no matter what you say it's pure speculation, pre release trailers aren't reliable as a source and neither are the whiny fanboys crying because some neckbeard redditor says "ACKTUALLY these frames are subpar so all game bad"
give me a fucking break, people need to quit whining, if it's bad it's bad if it's good it's good quit imagining some bullshit trust for a company that doesn't give a shit about you, toxic positivity, toxic negativity, it's a TOXICITY problem, not a game problem, both sides are wrong
is the game good, is it bad?
neither, and it won't be either way so put down the flame war goggles and chill watch people play the game before buying it ffs IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO AVOID BAD GAMES
Imo. SEGA's involvement with Sonic is the embodiment of "We can do it, we just don't know how"
All agressiveness is justified against this gargabe game
The Sonic fanbase has been getting out of hands lately. Have they?! They just gripe about things that hasn't been out yet. They can't except those to there opinions. And they can't seem to think what they want in an Sonic game.
we been saying what we want since the 90s.
Take it from someone who’s been a Sonic fan for about two decades now. Just like what you like. You don’t need the validation of your favorite TH-camr to like/dislike something. Life is too short. Just enjoy what makes you happy
After kingdom valley id say 85% of sonic fans are onboard with this game. 3:10 This is exactly what happened at least to most people
*Sonic X Shadow Generations Footage is revealed*
So are you gonna admit that ya’ll are so traumatized by Forces, the concept of a straight line scares you?
I get Forces has problems and there’s a shit ton of missed potential, but so did 06 and everyone went soft on it as of recent despite ST’s actual incompetence.
It’s only fair to lose trust on Sega themselves than Sonic Team’s with the amount of shit they had to deal with.
No, Hedgehog Engine 2 is better
No, The Boost Formula isn’t fundamentally flawed
And No, Linearity wasn’t the problem with the Boost Games.
Even the title of this video is bullshit.
How is it Forces Fault for breaking the community? The Sonic Fanbase was broken LONG before this game, which everyone dogged on before release. I remember hearing about the “Linearity Complaints” during it’s wake over the course of 2017. And Forces wasn’t the first case of having negative PR before release, Shadow the Hedgehog was the only other time it’s happened.
This fanbase was already broken, but no, EVERYONE singled out Forces (despite its actual problems), and gave us “Generic Frontiers” and it’s direction.
I don’t hate Frontiers tbf, but if this direction proves to be successful, fine. But if SXS does even better and surpasses Frontiers, I genuinely hope the Open Zone format is ditched.
@@gameman5804
Shadow's portion has open zone in his hubworld. They're not ditching it.
@@magical_pixie_horse7346
I was more talking about the kind of gameplay loop Frontiers had.
I'm definitely skeptical of the gameplay of Shadow, but I think the story and boss fights are gonna be pretty fire.