@@Crecganford I don't like to give suggestions because I don't know enough to know what to suggest, but I did want to leave a comment for the algorithm. I didn't know I wanted to hear this story until I watched it.
Hǫðr is blind because he is symbolic of winter overtaking the summer (killing of Baldr), his blindness is the darkness of winter. The weeping being necessary for his return is the same reason we say "April showers bring May flowers". Mistletoe is parasitic and the only plant left with leaves on the trees when the rest fall in winter, seemingly "killing" Baldr. To the PIE reconstruction, I think the Horse Twins fighting for the hand of the Dawn Goddess is another good suggestion. Great video!
What did Odin whisper in the dead Baldr's ear? "How dare you up and die on me and leave me alone with these a**holes!? You were the only sane, tolerable person around here!"
The Baldr myth is quite similar to the Achilles myth. Both are almost invincible, except in one small way overlooked by their mothers, who make a great effort to protect them from all harm. Both are killed through a projectile that takes advantage of their small point of weakness. This suggests a very old Indo-European myth is behind both stories, thousands upon thousands of years old.
Also a bit similar to Siegfried, who bathed in dragons blood and became invincible except for a small spot where a leaf had covered his skin while he bathed
The mother's armor theme seems to have a real anchor in reality. Maybe that is why these myths are so popular. The mother thinks of almost everything to protect the child growing up. The mother teaches the child about cliffs, poison plants, dangerous water, venomous animals, witches and more. But mothers are fallible. They will miss something. Eventually you grow up and there is nothing more a mother can do to protect you. You will have a weakness and you will never know what it is. If you act like you are invincible, someone will find your weakness. That is a great lesson for a warrior. I think it implies you need to work as a team. The lone wolf eventually gets killed. Another warrrior-inspiring message is that If you think, ask around, and travel far enough, you can always reach something that let's you win even against godlike adversaries.
Might be a bit late here, but mistletoe does grow as a tree some places, I have a male and female tree here on my property in the south of Norway :) Their stems are 15-20 cm thick and they are straight as an arrow 10 meters up. Most of the time it will grow as a parasite on another tree but it is possible to find it as an independent tree, so I think Snorre knew what it was and had proper descriptions even if it doesn't grow in Iceland. However, the plant itself has barbs on the leaves and it is poisonous and has always been considered "magical" around here so it's not strange that it is used in this story.
@@Crecganford The modern Norwegian name is "misteltein", however in my half sleep I mixed it up with "kristtorn", or holly in English which is similar and grows here but "misteltein" only grows around the Oslofjord. So my mistake, I mixed it up and you had it right in the first place that the misteltein is a bush, not common in Norway and is not suitable for an arrow 🤣 Thank you for the videos btw, I enjoy the historic comparisons of the different legends and how they wonder across cultures, languages and geography while still retaining it's roots. Edit: thinking a bit more on this, kristtorn (christ thorn), or holly in english is really a better candidate. Perhaps Snorre suffered from the same confusion as I since they both have dark green leaves and are poisonous. The kristtorn will look like a parasitic bush in many cases but as stated above it can also grow independent, something the mistletoe can not do. Now I wonder what kristtorn was called in old norse :)
I have noticed not many people know about the iranian version of this: Fridun (triton) has three sons, out of whom, Tur (dark[ness]) kills his brother Iraj (from whom we get the word Iran/Aryan). Interestingly Hodor is blind while Tur is dark.
Interesting the conflict between Baldur and Hodr in that other version of story has Trojan war written all over it. With Baldur's invulnerability being very reminisce of Achilles along with him being a demi god and not full god. Him being an older god adopted into Norse pantheon also make sense in that it has always been odd that Baldur was older then Thor.
Baldr is cognate to Old English Bældor, Irish Beal and Babylonian Baal. He is an Indo-European god. All the gods i listed except Baldr are attested gods of fire like Agni in Hinduism. The Irish Beltaine and the Anglo-Saxon Bældæg are both fire festivals that centred around fire and the spring, most likely there was an Indo-European connection between spring and fire. Baldr is an attested god of light and shining, which are characteristics of fire, and fire gods such as Agni in the Vedas. Baldr's sad demise may be the Norse understanding of fire, which is lit and causes joy, just as Agni is written about in Hidnuism, and is beloved by the gods, perhaps because fire carried the gods' offerings up to them, as the Hindus believe of Agni. Fire, however, once extinguished, leaves darkness and cold, and ends a ritual to the gods. The original death of Baldr myth was probably more along the lines of a tale reflecting on fire. Fire is lit and everybody loves it, looks at it, plays around it, it gives heat and light, scares off animals, you put offerings into the bale and the smoke travels it upwards to heaven. But its sad that the flame must always be extinguished, leaving the people cold, blind and in danger of wild animals, and leaving the gods without offering. This was the Indo-European mindset surrounding fire, in my humble opinion from studying Germamic myth, Celtic festivals and Vedic literature. Imagine that the Norse who lived in cold, windy Scandinavia would have developed much deeper feelings for fire than on the warmer mainland or even on the lower British isles. Whatever takes the flame away from man, such as a trickster god, must be tortured for it, as Loki was, and all the gods would weep, upset without offering. Baldr was most likely a fire god to the Norse as well as the Anglo-Saxons and probably mainland Germans. His sad demise is surely a tale reflective of the extinguishing of fire.
@@heraclito3114 I hear he was also a fire god. It could be a similar case to how Ishtar is Semitic but influenced by an equal Indo-European goddess akin to Eostre and Uśas, Her Semitic name being Inanna. Baal being associated with fire might be Indo-European influence but i think it's too similar to Germanic Bældor and Irish Beal, so on so forth
Loved this explanation and comparison to the death of Osiris. Great perspective! If only we could know the original names of these two deities. Höðr Blíndi in OldNorse is literally 'Blind Hatred' (unguided rage) which points to a later layer handed to us in the myth. Depictions of divine twins are known from the Sutton Hoo helmet, the Gallehús horns amongst others. Maybe just like the Dioskouroi they resemble echos of the myth you described?
@@Crecganford Thank you and good luck! And... Freyja/Nerthus may be the PIE goddess from the north that deserves a broader perspective. You have a rare position to go deeper. You are appreciated highly!
Could you do a video on Frigg and why some people think Frigg and Freya are the same goddess? Edit: Your reconstruction reminds me of Slavic mythology, where there's a fight between the sky-god Perun and the water-god Veles.
I like this idea, although there are some who say that these were made up by Christian's trying to convert Slavs. I'm not convinced, and thank you for sharing this thought.
Once again, your reconstruction of PIE mythology is unsurpassed. Your contributions are so important to those of us seeking a deeper understanding of the spiritual cosmology of indigenous European religion; to find communion with our ancestors and the gods.
Hodr is totally chthonic. You can probably link him to the blind herdsman of the underworld in Finnish mythology. In fact, I believe there is one Finnic legend in which the two blind field hands of Luho are both called "Jumi." That would relate to the Baltic word for twin, and by extension, Vedic "Yama."
Is there any connection between the very difficult to obtain mistletoe/thistle-reed used to kill Baldr and the very difficult to craft spear that was used to kill the Welsh solar hero god Llew Llaw Gyffes?
Interesting, I think they come from different motifs, the mistletoe is due to myth-dispersal, but the spear is an old motif we see in stories of warriors achieving difficult things, and is possibly more associated with Odin. But I would need to speak to my expert on the Mabinogion to validate this thought.
I figured it was a longshot, but I didn't know how difficult Höðr's weapon was to obtain, nor did I make the connection with Baldr as a solar hero/sky god until I saw this video and it prompted my curiosity.
Hødr means "darkness", and is supposedly related to the word "hate". The reason for the stories of Snorri and Saxo being so different was probably because they had very different views. Snorri obviously viewed Baldr as a kind of pagan Jesus, while Saxo, who loved when pagan gods suffered misfortune, considered Hødr a hero for killing Baldr.
Two observations: as I understand it , the word “mistletoe” essentially derives from OE and means “poo stick.” Between that & the parasitic nature of the plant, there’s an element ritual defiling going on here, I think. The second observation is more of a question, really: is there any connection between Baldr (the bright one) and Heimdalr, who is called the White God, who is killed by Loki at Ragnarok? They seem to me to be parallels - the cthonic god kills the bright shining god, bringing on a world-consuming winter. And again, if I remember correctly, Baldr & Hodr are among the gods who survive Ragnarok. So that sets up the possibility of a cyclical story of the perpetual death & rebirth of summer. Which ties directly into your interpretation of this myth as being about agriculture.
Your work on our ancient histories is very much appreciated you have no idea. Otherwise it’s near impossible to get the history of our peoples without reading years of content. Thanks 🙏
So Baldr was like a male Persephone. LOL that poor dwarf serf. Thank you for the explanation of this myth. Was always confused by this story & thought it made ZERO sense. I mean, Loki had to pretend to be another giantess to trick the gods..? Are they that dumb? Who's the one who keeps record of ALL the beings in the cosmos? LOL. & I thought it was really unfair on Hodr, but now that I know he's the embodiment of blind rage/ hate/ jealousy & the darkness of winter, it all makes sense.
Ive another theory to pose. On Christmas we always hang a mistletoe above the threshold of the home any two people caught under the mistletoe together is supposed to kiss the other person. Thus I'm going to go out on a "limb" here and say that it is love that killed baldur. All meant as a joke but then love used wrong killed him.... just a thought lol pierced him through but the easiest way to defeat someone especially a god or an immortal is to destroy they're will to live by killing they're want for love on the deepest levels. Just went through a breakup that had me dieing forgot my name and birthday even before i got away. Now im not sure ill ever fully recover but when I hear the story of baldur the only thing I can think is that he died from that giantess's fake love. Which loki or not was intentionally done not meant as a simple joke... thats just an excuse loki uses to get a slap on the wrist for punishment. But anyhow its just a thought. Perhaps the world may never know...
Is there any relation between the the Nanna described in these stories and the Mesopotamian Nanna/ Sin? (I know the genders are different, but moon deities are more often female.)
A great question, and right now I would have to say I'm not sure there is a connection, apart from a similar name. But I will look into this more with time as there is obviously a lot of history going on with "proto-Balder" and "proto-Hodr", and this still needs to be uncovered.
I've been interested in Norse/Germanic mythology for some time but soon found out that it is hugely complicated and difficult to piece together and ultimately difficult to understand. So with that in mind you can imagine how much easier it is for me to get my head around the stories listening to your narrative opposed to reading the translations of the Edda's.
Your recreation of Baldr reminds me of Zeus. Because you described Baldr as the sky father known as the bright one and Zeus’ name does mean bright or sky. Makes me wonder if the two are linked or if it is just a coincidence.
Yes, there would be some similarity Zeus was a more supreme god, a Sky Father figure maxed out, where Baldr was a god of the sky, not a father figure, but responsible for weather. And so Zeus contains many of the properties of Baldr, but Baldr only has a few of that of Zeus.
Another good video. I wouldn't agree that Jesus and Balder are not similar myths. The mistletoe is associated with a sword, but I would steer more toward the Sword of Destiny, Fragarach, being the same symbolic piercer as the spear of destiny that pierced the side of Jesus. Fragarach being the sword of Mannanan Mac Lir who was considered a trickster god and a ruler of the underworld. Which also brings up Uranus castrated by his son with a golden sickle just as the Druids cut the mistletoe from the oak. The spear/sword/mistletoe piercing the physical body to symbolize the end of the physical and rebirth, spiritual rebirth. Could have agricultural basis as it is not far from a Cain and Able type myth. And Balder being the symbol of the birth and death of crops being killed by his brother the one who represents the free herder, hunter gatherer. Symbolizes the acceptance of agriculture and the demonizing of the shephards and nomads. Not a far stretch to read the myth of Cain and then associate that with the Caananites who did sacrifice their sons. Like Tammuz and Jesus all the world weeps for the sacrificial lamb or bull, all except one who represents Satan, or Loki disguised as a giantess. I would consider Odin's blindness in one eye to be relative to his son being blind. In that Odin had to sacrifice his one eye to see into the "other", spiritual, Real, world. He could see into both worlds, this world and the heavenly world. Hodr being blind may have meant he was not cognizant of this world, but was a seer, Tiresias type, who saw into the spiritual world.
Thank you for sharing the germanic version near the end of the video. Why is there so little germanic mythology online (compared to norse)? I keep looking for the germanic version of Baldr and Hodr, but I only get the modern norse versions.
I would really like to see u write a comprehensive encyclopedia styled book of all these stories and explaining it the way u do. I like the videos also, but I mean a reference like book that maybe goes into even deeper detail that pos u don't have time for in a video. I'd buy it. Or have u already written something by chance?
I am currently in negotiations for writing a book exactly about this, and so if an agreement is reached it probably won't be out until 2025, but it will be well worth the wiat.
Hrm. The way you render this at the end of the story very much reminds me of the tale of Persephone and Hades. There are many muddled details, but the pining after a woman by a god of the underworld, the agricultural nature of the deity that is brought into the underworld by their endeavors, and the lamentation and attempt to bring them back to the world of the living are all quite similar. Should you be correct about the idea that this is a reflection of Neolithic Farmer religion, perhaps the same story has developed into both these tales. (And on a related note, perhaps Loki is included in this story as the architect of Baldur's demise specifically because the lord of the underworld *had* to be the one who is the perpetrator and it had to be a man because that's how it was in the original; thus, Hel would be ruled out, and given it could not be Odin, Loki was the only logical alternative in a version of the story that did not have Hodr filling that particular role.)
I did touch on this in the video, but maybe not clearly enough. Loki "(normally) never did anything evil, but managed to get others to do the evil, that was his way; but also in some versions it was just Hodr doing the killing without Loki, and in others it may have been Loki. But these versions of the myth have disappeared, and we can only make these assumptions based on what Snorri Sturluson has written.
Ohhh! It clicked for me when the Weeping question was finally asked! He's the winter god, the cyclical one that has to die each year in order to come back with the spring! I remember these types of gods from my Pagan days. The weeping has something to do with rain important to planting (end of summer/beginning of spring?) Thank you for a great video!
so in the bible we have the light and dark, we have two brothers, we the flood, and there are probably more. is there a figure in mythology that Moses can be paired with? thanks much - loved the way you covered this story. 🌷🌱
There is creation too, which aligns to the Indo-European stories, but we don't have figures that are aligned so well to Moses. Odin was there at creation, the flood, for Baldr, and for the end of the world, so you could argue that he holds that position, and that position is one that could also be aligned to Manu, the first priest of Indo-European tradition, a primordial being who came to Earth after he created it.
Bit of a Norse mythology fan. Also a big MCU fan. Which is why my Walker Hound is named Loki. Thanks very much for these videos. They are helping fill in details on belief, religion, and cultural change.
@@Crecganford Me too. I read the Larousse mythologies as a kid, and the Norse mythology spoke to me in a way the others didn’t. I’m totally fascinated by our extinct non-Sapiens relatives too. I’d love to know what Neanderthals, Denisovans, Naledi etc. had in the way of myths, and how they might connect to the myths we know. Unfortunately myths don’t fossilize. Sigh.
Today i discovered Your channel.. really nice how You speak abut our history, myths and others historical facts.. I hope one day You will explore and present a Slavic mythology to others. We (I speak as Slavic ethnic) have a really beautiful history and myths off our Pantheon with many Gods that You can compare with Celtic, Germanic and Viking myths and beliefs. Hope You will find your time to explore this part of European history ... Thanks in advance
Thank you for watching the video, and yes, one day I will talk about Slavic mythology. I want to be accurate and so am taking my time pulling things together, but it will come one day.
I'm not an expert on etymology, but looking at my reference material I cannot see an etymological link, but that doesn't mean their origins aren't the same. We just lack the clues about the Slavic gods to understand if they align to sky god and underworld god.
Nice video Jon! The view about the waepon that killed Balder was new for me, so thank you for sharing. There are some other myths with the same motive. The Ossetians have myths about the Narts, who are demigods. Here we have the sungod Soslan who is killed because the trickster Syrdon asks the other Narts to throw objects to Soslan. Sounds very familiar, doesn't it? Then we have the Irish story about the death of Fergus. The King Aillil knew his wife Medb slept with Fergus. While hunting king Aillil said to the blind Lugaid he was aiming at a deer, and so he killed Fergus. Well, there is some analoge with Christ. Christ was wouned be a spear of a blind Roman soldier Longinus. Christ was betrayed by Judas (cf. Loki). Ofcourse blind soldiers can 't serve in the army so maybe to be blind means to be ignorant. Maybe Hodur was not really blind as well but was ignorant and did not know what he was doing. After Ragnarok he returns with Balder, and Hodur can see because now he understands the faith of the gods ...
Thor Heyerdahl believed the Ir/Os/Alans/Ossetians (all names for the same people) were the source of much of Norse mythology, because of many cultural and mythological similarities. He was ridiculed by his peers, but I have to wonder. They even had a capital named "Asoigard" at one point, when they lived on the steppes southeast of the Tanais/Tanakvisl/Don, besides a tendency to believe their royalty were divine. Maybe the late version of Odin was indeed an Ossetian warlord who moved to Scandinavia after some kind of spat in the homeland.
@@jytte-hilden I wish I had the time to go into a detailed reply. But I will tackle this in a future video. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
I always wonder about the almost villain of the stories. Poor ol Hodr. We know even less about his character. In the first rendition of the story in your video, he unwittingly kills his bro, then in the second, it was him who was beloved and nearly Baldr who was the villain trying to force Nanna into a relationship she was not interested in. With BOTH those versions being kinder to his character, was he really so much of a villain as shown in the last? Is there more information on his character else where? I know NOTHING about Norse mythology, so I really don't know apart from asking here and doing a google search. Thank you for such a fascinating channel with wonderful material that I have never heard of before or had a chance to wonder about, until now.
We really need to dig into the Neolithic gods these characters probably represent, and one day I will do that. And so alas, I have to leave you in wonder for a little longer...
the beloved John or 'Joses ' = Balder the rejected James or 'Jacov ' = Hodr They are the sons of Zebedeus ; 'who dwells with God' or is closest to the Sun. Jakob ; 'pretender, challenger, Yemo ? ' is the nickname of Andrew, Andreas, Drusus (= Hodur ? ) Esau the king is the twin-brother of Yacub the priest, Manus-Yemo = Melchi-Zadok. Zebedeus = Mercury, the Messenger = the gold- or treasure-bearer = Balthasar/ Belsassar Junias (from Juno = Youth) = Mars = the sword- or weapon-bearer = Gerardus / Mesech Andronicus = Venus / Lucifer = the light- bearer = Caspar/ Sadrach = Samuel. King or Prince and Priest = Michael & Samael, ' boanerges ' or ' walkures ' or 'twin-urges' or ' 'Demi-urg' aka the guides or 2 witnesses of heaven ( earth & heaven, thunder & lightning). De-meter (an expression of Gaia) is the twin-mother, in OT ; Rebekah , in NT ; Salome. It compares to the greek mythology 1) Hermes (the messenger), 2) Appolos (the destroyer) 3) Pan (revivor, life-givng spirit of nature), thrice great or Hermis trismegistis. Other names for the Twin are Castor & Pollux (heraldic figures bearing rods or torches) Ufus (bold or beardless, the youngster) & Rufus (bright red-head) Pontus (dark surrounding seas) & Eather (bright surrounding atmosphere) Hermogenis & Hymenaeus Barn-abbas & Silas (the 'compaignions' of messenger/apostle Paul) also Gemini, Thomas and Didymus (names for the 'twins'). Zebulon (dweller) & Naphtali (burning flame} Potiphar (standing general) & Joseph (= Panneoh, the Pan-alike), both serving Pharaoh. Moses & Aaron (NT ; Jair ) Perez & Zerah Machlon & Ghiljon (father Eliezer) Phineas & Hophni (sons of Eli) Mordechai & Haman Malik & Sadiq, wicked zealot & vigilant pious, upholder & accusor
The is the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, but there are other Eddas based on the original manuscripts as the Prose Edda tends to be an amalgamation of these.
As Crawford has pointed out Frigg didn’t have mistletoe swear an oath because it was too young to worry about. It’s because in Norse society you had to be of a certain age for Oaths to be valid. This loophole is used in several Norse accounts for people to get around oaths. It would be nice if you were a bit more detailed, sometimes it’s like listening to a Wikipedia page.
you said about the link between Baldur and Osiris. Wouldn"t that make Hodr the same as the god of darkness Set? i would like to see comparisons between the 2 mythologys
Also seen as Cain and Abel. I am sure that some deep thinker remoulded everything available in First and Second Century Rome into what now is Christianity. The Mythos is inescapable.
The Norwegian rune poem connects the Birch rune to Loki saying: 'Loki was fortunate in his deceit', while Haevateinn is attested as a weapon made by Loki and kept in Hel's domain. This suggests that Mistilltein once was a birch dart with a different name.
Thanks for you add Turkish language. İ wanna know about is there a First night after marriage in your culture. Because i saw a dream about it didnt found anywhere.
I’ve been told that the gods and their stories were from Greece and were taken to Vikings by the people who survived Troy. Also that Snorrie Sturluson also claims this? Is this true.
Mistletoe: brings up a question I have been attempting to answer for over 50 years. I call it "12+1" - sacred trees + mistletoe - disciples + Jesus - Disciples + Buddha - Knights + Artur - Adityas + Surya - Jewels + gold breast plate - it goes on and on. Best I can conjure is there are 12 months (full moons) + 1 full moon. If you become interested, check it out.
@@ryanorionwotanson4568 No, in astrology, the sun is a planet. The +1 in the zodiac is Cetus. The deal is their are 13 full moons every month, only 12 months - hmmm
The intent of Loki to reign means to P his runes. mist his mark, and the immature aspect of mistletoe. chore lee? stop the rain. the air is one in all, yet we are one below who think we are one above. The symbolic meaning of letters LE? All lie for one vision mind body and soul. we preserve the intent of Loki to dead ball, ball dead no air desire... the LE aspect is the phantom identity which thinks it exists independent of everything else and claims possession without any sense of free share fresh air cannot be possessed. Sorry, and i really appreciate you sharing this content.
The love triangle is the key, there are two opposing gods of luminous darkness who dispute a woman, one god will end up spearing his opposite, killing each other cyclically, the woman will be shared, in times of darkness she will live with the god of the underworld and in bright times she will live with the solar hero, this corresponds to the only myth versioned by cultures of Indo-European origin, in reality the two opposing gods are one and the goddess is one, these are divided into four, the only god spears himself and sacrifices himself
The combined stories to me bear some resemblance to the Welsh story of Llew Llaw Gyfes who can only be slain by his rival Gronw Pebr in a very specific way which the latter is able to achieve through the advice and treachery of another.
I was wondering how you think the reconstructed story relates to the Hades and Persephone myth. Since both have an agricultural basis and the attempted rescue by a parent deity.
What do you think about the potential connections to mahabharata? Baldr is the "bright" or "white" god in keeping with a spring solar dying and rising aspect, meanwhile pandu "pale" takes the role of the father of the pandavas, who seem in a way to be humanized gods, a position i would expect a sun god to take in a story written when solar worship was more important, meanwhile hođr the blind god who seems associated with battle seems connected to dhritarashtra, the born blind king who fights for the kingdom in what would have been a massive unheard of war, meanwhile vidura is taking the position of the wise sage, and vidur, the silent god, is the one odin tells his secrets and presumably wisdom to. Thoughts?
I forgot also vidars mother is an outsider giantess and viduras mother is a 'servant' making her non related and the two brothers in mahabharata have different mothers potentially conntecting to the non related nature in one of the norse stories
Lovely video, you present our history great! Would love to hear Mor sources mentioned for all your arguments, but that is properly not something that would benefit your subscriber count. But would love to hear where you found the stories from the near East, would love to read more :) Thanks for a nice video 👍
It's always interesting to me how myths change over time, sometimes using the same characters and symbols to explain or refer to very different ideas. The flip side of this can also be seen when we get stories explaining or remembering history using all or almost all different characters with similar frameworks. I wonder if, when we find this in myth and lore, are we seeing two different versions of the same older myth whose meaning has been lost to the successive generations through time and distance. I suppose so as this is a big part of the study of PIE. The problem I'm having now in describing this idea is that I know I have noticed this before, but I can't think of the examples I want to use. Perhaps the flood stories are an example. In some, we get it as mainly being about a god, usually the head god, punishing humanity for wickedness or disobedience. In others, it often starts similarly, but ends up mainly describing the creation of humanity. The stories are similar, but the first type focuses primarily on the god who causes the flood and why they did it. The other type focuses mainly on the saving of the good things of the world and the creation of future humanity. The Abrahamic version of the myth differs from most because the same God that caused the flood also saved the progenitors of the future. This is in contrast to most other flood myths where a second, usually lower, god is the savior. This idea I think is what you are expressing in the Baldr and Hodr myths. One features several just-so stories, where the other seems more like history. Did I understand this right? What do you think made them go different ways with what seems to have been the same basic story?
Hi, and yes I'm sure this type of evolution and development of stories has happened like this. And the reason is cultural overlap, and it is one of the reasons I'm going to make a video on "Finding the Old Gods" (I've put a post to it in my Patreon). This I hope will show the way some of these cultural changes came to be, and why stories/pantheons of gods, developed
I wonder what you think of theory that Baldr was an export of Ba'al by the Phoenicians. There's a lot of linguistic and archaeological evidence that the Phoenicians traded with North-Germanic tribes (e.g root-based morphology, lexicon of sea-faring/trade/war semantic fields which differs from other PIE languages, etc).
Christianity is an evolution of an evolution of an evolution of a religion. It took concepts so far as to almost be unrecognisable from its source, and the disappearance of gods, especially the female gods, and god’s wife (which I have made a video about), is one of the things that suffered in this evolution. I hope that helps, and thank you for watching.
It never had them. Christianity is the religion of (the teachings of) Christ. He emphasized that there was one God for all people, and all were of equal value to him, and you served him by serving each other. Oh and that ritual and purity were unimportant, things of man not God. It was very radically different from anything else at the time.
@@Crecganford maybe the Mistletoe has something to do with its seasonal appearance or ripening around Mid-Winter? I'm not sure about that I'm just surmising.
@@Crecganford yes so like you said in the video the tale must be from much older times in Europe and was imported or well known in Iceland. As you also say Snori Sturlisson didn't appear to know what Mistletoe was either, yet it remains in the story. The story also seems to allude to the figure of Lo'Ki as being a much later addition, possibly as a Christain equivalent to the Devil or Serpent figure replacing an earlier Cthonic underworld figure that would be clearly Neolithic in origin rather than Indo-European.
@@Crecganford and Hodr being blind relates to his Cthonic attributes as a figure from the Underworld the Light blinds him. The SunKing is sacrificed by the Underworld Lord Of Darkness so the Sun can be reborn and it could be that mistletoe makes its appearance also at this time relating mistletoe as the weapon used to kill the SunKing by the Underworld Lord Of Darkness. Saturnalia celebrates this Solar ritual but they worship the Lord of Darkness, Saturn on December 25th. I have also heard that the Druids held mistletoe as sacred and there was only a very limited and special time it could be harvested. If this time was around Mid-Winter then we have all the elements of a solar worship of the Sun's annual cycle of death and renewal. Just are we worshipping the newly reborn Sun or are we worshipping his executioner the Lord of Chaos, Roman Saturn and his feast of Saturnalia. If this is so then the religion is being very deceitful and false in what it portrays as doctrine.
I'm interested in how many gods and goddesses might have been in the earliest myths. Greek and Norse pantheons seem to have chosen fixed limited numbers, but those characters were developed from much earlier ones. With deities being amalgamated and split into more than one over time, would we be looking at a huge number of 'original deities' based on nature spirits perhaps, or just a few, like say, a sun/sky god, an earth/fertility goddess, a weather/storm god, and a war god?
@@Crecganford A comparison of the structures of the earliest known pantheons would be great. But I don't know whether pantheons were always a thing. In animism it's just spirits of everything, and in some early 'religions' there seems to be just a few simplistic personifications of natural phenomena (storms, sun etc), so pantheons seem to be a later construct to make deities more interesting for storytelling. A comparison showing either that there was a 'first common pantheon' concept, or that there was great disparity between the first pantheons would be very interesting to me.
"For instance, I would mention the scourging, the crowning with thorns, and the clothing in a purple robe, which show Jesus as the archaic sacrificed king. This is further emphasized by the Barabbas episode (the name means "son of the father") which leads to the sacrificed king." [Psyche & Symbol, Carl Jung, 1958, Ch. 4 :Transformation Symbolism In The Mass, Sec. II. The Psychological Meaning of Sacrifice; d) The Archetype of Sacrifice]
Psychologically the case is clear, since the dogmatic figure of Christ is so sublime and spotless that everything else turns dark beside it. It is, in fact, so one-sidedly perfect that it demands a psychic complement to restore the balance. This inevitable opposition led very early to the doctrine of the two sons of God, of whom the Elder was called Satanaël. [Psyche and Symbol, Carl Jung, 1958, Ch. 1: Aion, Sec. V: Christ, a Symbol of the Self, p.40]
Auto captions are hysterical, especially on the names. Christians would be the very best ones to know whether Balder or any god is Christ-like. Balder is. Plot points can turn to the opposite. I don't see what a reed or a thistle has to do with agriculture, but thistle does make me think of Sleeping Beauty pricking her finger on a thorn. Jealousy, Beauty, Betrayal, unfairly condemned to Death, the whole world crying, those are the important parts of the story.
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Are there any very old gods you would like to discover more about?
Yes?
@@the_mowron Marvelous to know!
@@Crecganford I don't like to give suggestions because I don't know enough to know what to suggest, but I did want to leave a comment for the algorithm.
I didn't know I wanted to hear this story until I watched it.
@@the_mowron Well, if there is anything you're interested in which you think I could help with, just let me know :)
What do we know about heindallr?
Hǫðr is blind because he is symbolic of winter overtaking the summer (killing of Baldr), his blindness is the darkness of winter. The weeping being necessary for his return is the same reason we say "April showers bring May flowers". Mistletoe is parasitic and the only plant left with leaves on the trees when the rest fall in winter, seemingly "killing" Baldr.
To the PIE reconstruction, I think the Horse Twins fighting for the hand of the Dawn Goddess is another good suggestion. Great video!
What did Odin whisper in the dead Baldr's ear? "How dare you up and die on me and leave me alone with these a**holes!? You were the only sane, tolerable person around here!"
The Baldr myth is quite similar to the Achilles myth. Both are almost invincible, except in one small way overlooked by their mothers, who make a great effort to protect them from all harm. Both are killed through a projectile that takes advantage of their small point of weakness. This suggests a very old Indo-European myth is behind both stories, thousands upon thousands of years old.
Yes! Exactly, a motif that persists in many IE myths. Thanks for watching and commenting :)
Yes.. and a beautiful woman.. Nanna is Helena?
Also a bit similar to Siegfried, who bathed in dragons blood and became invincible except for a small spot where a leaf had covered his skin while he bathed
@@ellerose9164 This similarity struck me as well. And Hagen is as much a trickster as Loki.
The mother's armor theme seems to have a real anchor in reality. Maybe that is why these myths are so popular.
The mother thinks of almost everything to protect the child growing up. The mother teaches the child about cliffs, poison plants, dangerous water, venomous animals, witches and more. But mothers are fallible. They will miss something.
Eventually you grow up and there is nothing more a mother can do to protect you. You will have a weakness and you will never know what it is. If you act like you are invincible, someone will find your weakness. That is a great lesson for a warrior. I think it implies you need to work as a team. The lone wolf eventually gets killed.
Another warrrior-inspiring message is that If you think, ask around, and travel far enough, you can always reach something that let's you win even against godlike adversaries.
Might be a bit late here, but mistletoe does grow as a tree some places, I have a male and female tree here on my property in the south of Norway :)
Their stems are 15-20 cm thick and they are straight as an arrow 10 meters up.
Most of the time it will grow as a parasite on another tree but it is possible to find it as an independent tree, so I think Snorre knew what it was and had proper descriptions even if it doesn't grow in Iceland.
However, the plant itself has barbs on the leaves and it is poisonous and has always been considered "magical" around here so it's not strange that it is used in this story.
Now I wasn't aware of that, and I will look into this, thank you. Is the plant actually referred to as Mistletoe in Norwegian?
@@Crecganford The modern Norwegian name is "misteltein", however in my half sleep I mixed it up with "kristtorn", or holly in English which is similar and grows here but "misteltein" only grows around the Oslofjord. So my mistake, I mixed it up and you had it right in the first place that the misteltein is a bush, not common in Norway and is not suitable for an arrow 🤣
Thank you for the videos btw, I enjoy the historic comparisons of the different legends and how they wonder across cultures, languages and geography while still retaining it's roots.
Edit: thinking a bit more on this, kristtorn (christ thorn), or holly in english is really a better candidate. Perhaps Snorre suffered from the same confusion as I since they both have dark green leaves and are poisonous. The kristtorn will look like a parasitic bush in many cases but as stated above it can also grow independent, something the mistletoe can not do. Now I wonder what kristtorn was called in old norse :)
I have noticed not many people know about the iranian version of this:
Fridun (triton) has three sons, out of whom, Tur (dark[ness]) kills his brother Iraj (from whom we get the word Iran/Aryan). Interestingly Hodor is blind while Tur is dark.
Thank you for taking the time to share
Interesting the conflict between Baldur and Hodr in that other version of story has Trojan war written all over it. With Baldur's invulnerability being very reminisce of Achilles along with him being a demi god and not full god.
Him being an older god adopted into Norse pantheon also make sense in that it has always been odd that Baldur was older then Thor.
Yes, there is definitely parallelism going on with Baldur and Achilles, signs on an earlier myth evolving.
Baldr is cognate to Old English Bældor, Irish Beal and Babylonian Baal. He is an Indo-European god. All the gods i listed except Baldr are attested gods of fire like Agni in Hinduism. The Irish Beltaine and the Anglo-Saxon Bældæg are both fire festivals that centred around fire and the spring, most likely there was an Indo-European connection between spring and fire.
Baldr is an attested god of light and shining, which are characteristics of fire, and fire gods such as Agni in the Vedas. Baldr's sad demise may be the Norse understanding of fire, which is lit and causes joy, just as Agni is written about in Hidnuism, and is beloved by the gods, perhaps because fire carried the gods' offerings up to them, as the Hindus believe of Agni. Fire, however, once extinguished, leaves darkness and cold, and ends a ritual to the gods. The original death of Baldr myth was probably more along the lines of a tale reflecting on fire.
Fire is lit and everybody loves it, looks at it, plays around it, it gives heat and light, scares off animals, you put offerings into the bale and the smoke travels it upwards to heaven. But its sad that the flame must always be extinguished, leaving the people cold, blind and in danger of wild animals, and leaving the gods without offering. This was the Indo-European mindset surrounding fire, in my humble opinion from studying Germamic myth, Celtic festivals and Vedic literature.
Imagine that the Norse who lived in cold, windy Scandinavia would have developed much deeper feelings for fire than on the warmer mainland or even on the lower British isles. Whatever takes the flame away from man, such as a trickster god, must be tortured for it, as Loki was, and all the gods would weep, upset without offering.
Baldr was most likely a fire god to the Norse as well as the Anglo-Saxons and probably mainland Germans. His sad demise is surely a tale reflective of the extinguishing of fire.
Baal is Semitic and not indoeuropean and he i a storm god.
@@heraclito3114 I hear he was also a fire god. It could be a similar case to how Ishtar is Semitic but influenced by an equal Indo-European goddess akin to Eostre and Uśas, Her Semitic name being Inanna. Baal being associated with fire might be Indo-European influence but i think it's too similar to Germanic Bældor and Irish Beal, so on so forth
Baal is not Semitic
@@mayadot7604 baal is semitic
Loved this explanation and comparison to the death of Osiris. Great perspective! If only we could know the original names of these two deities. Höðr Blíndi in OldNorse is literally 'Blind Hatred' (unguided rage) which points to a later layer handed to us in the myth. Depictions of divine twins are known from the Sutton Hoo helmet, the Gallehús horns amongst others. Maybe just like the Dioskouroi they resemble echos of the myth you described?
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to write such a great comment. It is appreciated.
@@Crecganford Thank you and good luck! And... Freyja/Nerthus may be the PIE goddess from the north that deserves a broader perspective. You have a rare position to go deeper. You are appreciated highly!
When you said Subscribe to delay Ragnarøk.....
It had me howling 🤣
Thanks again for an amazing video... Subbed already 🤍
Well, we can hope it will! :) And thank you for your support
Could you do a video on Frigg and why some people think Frigg and Freya are the same goddess?
Edit: Your reconstruction reminds me of Slavic mythology, where there's a fight between the sky-god Perun and the water-god Veles.
Yes, and yes… that another good suggestion. Thank you
Just so you know they definitely aren’t the same. Freyja is the dawn Goddess.
That's simply Facebook spreads that misinformation ever Friday.
Baldwr and Hothar reminds me of the slavic tale of the battle between veles and perun.
Hodr and Baldr could also be related to Czerhnobolg and Bielobog?
I like this idea, although there are some who say that these were made up by Christian's trying to convert Slavs. I'm not convinced, and thank you for sharing this thought.
The Most Balanced Power contains necessary measurements of all magical miracles.
First a dwarf is killed, then a giantess. Both anomalies, small and large.
I hadn't considered that, great observation :) Thank you!
Once again, your reconstruction of PIE mythology is unsurpassed. Your contributions are so important to those of us seeking a deeper understanding of the spiritual cosmology of indigenous European religion; to find communion with our ancestors and the gods.
Thank you, those are very kind words
@@Crecganford "He didn't answer. Fish-heads can't talk."
Hodr is totally chthonic. You can probably link him to the blind herdsman of the underworld in Finnish mythology. In fact, I believe there is one Finnic legend in which the two blind field hands of Luho are both called "Jumi." That would relate to the Baltic word for twin, and by extension, Vedic "Yama."
Nope, Jumi has no relation Yama or anything. Comparative mythology and research on Uralic religion is totally garbage atm.
Is there any connection between the very difficult to obtain mistletoe/thistle-reed used to kill Baldr and the very difficult to craft spear that was used to kill the Welsh solar hero god Llew Llaw Gyffes?
Interesting, I think they come from different motifs, the mistletoe is due to myth-dispersal, but the spear is an old motif we see in stories of warriors achieving difficult things, and is possibly more associated with Odin. But I would need to speak to my expert on the Mabinogion to validate this thought.
I figured it was a longshot, but I didn't know how difficult Höðr's weapon was to obtain, nor did I make the connection with Baldr as a solar hero/sky god until I saw this video and it prompted my curiosity.
Hødr means "darkness", and is supposedly related to the word "hate". The reason for the stories of Snorri and Saxo being so different was probably because they had very different views. Snorri obviously viewed Baldr as a kind of pagan Jesus, while Saxo, who loved when pagan gods suffered misfortune, considered Hødr a hero for killing Baldr.
Yes, he was definately the opposite of Baldr. A motif found in many myths.
Two observations: as I understand it , the word “mistletoe” essentially derives from OE and means “poo stick.” Between that & the parasitic nature of the plant, there’s an element ritual defiling going on here, I think. The second observation is more of a question, really: is there any connection between Baldr (the bright one) and Heimdalr, who is called the White God, who is killed by Loki at Ragnarok? They seem to me to be parallels - the cthonic god kills the bright shining god, bringing on a world-consuming winter. And again, if I remember correctly, Baldr & Hodr are among the gods who survive Ragnarok. So that sets up the possibility of a cyclical story of the perpetual death & rebirth of summer. Which ties directly into your interpretation of this myth as being about agriculture.
Your work on our ancient histories is very much appreciated you have no idea.
Otherwise it’s near impossible to get the history of our peoples without reading years of content.
Thanks 🙏
I do feel I have been reading years! Thank you for watching and your comment
Am I the only one who thinks of Innana (and Dumuzi) every time Baldr's wife is mentioned?
That’s interesting, I will have a think about that. Thanks for the comment!
Every time I hear about Thor in old Norse mythology he comes off as a psychopath. The Marvel Thor is nothing like the original.
This is very true.
Very cool! Then again, I enjoy all of your videos. 🤷♀️ As for what I'd like to learn? All of it! LOL!
So Baldr was like a male Persephone.
LOL that poor dwarf serf.
Thank you for the explanation of this myth. Was always confused by this story & thought it made ZERO sense. I mean, Loki had to pretend to be another giantess to trick the gods..? Are they that dumb? Who's the one who keeps record of ALL the beings in the cosmos? LOL. & I thought it was really unfair on Hodr, but now that I know he's the embodiment of blind rage/ hate/ jealousy & the darkness of winter, it all makes sense.
Ive another theory to pose. On Christmas we always hang a mistletoe above the threshold of the home any two people caught under the mistletoe together is supposed to kiss the other person. Thus I'm going to go out on a "limb" here and say that it is love that killed baldur. All meant as a joke but then love used wrong killed him.... just a thought lol pierced him through but the easiest way to defeat someone especially a god or an immortal is to destroy they're will to live by killing they're want for love on the deepest levels. Just went through a breakup that had me dieing forgot my name and birthday even before i got away. Now im not sure ill ever fully recover but when I hear the story of baldur the only thing I can think is that he died from that giantess's fake love. Which loki or not was intentionally done not meant as a simple joke... thats just an excuse loki uses to get a slap on the wrist for punishment. But anyhow its just a thought. Perhaps the world may never know...
Uther, Hathor, Arthur? King Arthur? And isn't there a Hathor in Egyptian mythology?
What if Hodr was blind, meaning ignorance?
Rather than physically blind? Interesting... I'll have a ponder of that. That caught my brain unawares! Thank you.
I am tickled by a PIE scholar hard no-ing the christification of Baldur.
Is there any relation between the the Nanna described in these stories and the Mesopotamian Nanna/ Sin? (I know the genders are different, but moon deities are more often female.)
A great question, and right now I would have to say I'm not sure there is a connection, apart from a similar name. But I will look into this more with time as there is obviously a lot of history going on with "proto-Balder" and "proto-Hodr", and this still needs to be uncovered.
I'm continously impressed in the quality of your videos! Both in presentation and content! They are incredibly interesting
I've been interested in Norse/Germanic mythology for some time but soon found out that it is hugely complicated and difficult to piece together and ultimately difficult to understand. So with that in mind you can imagine how much easier it is for me to get my head around the stories listening to your narrative opposed to reading the translations of the Edda's.
The GOAT drops another banger!
Maybe it means he was blind to the danger of the mistletoe.
Wouldn't want Ragnarok to come too soon!
Ing was first among the East Danes.
Your recreation of Baldr reminds me of Zeus. Because you described Baldr as the sky father known as the bright one and Zeus’ name does mean bright or sky. Makes me wonder if the two are linked or if it is just a coincidence.
Yes, there would be some similarity Zeus was a more supreme god, a Sky Father figure maxed out, where Baldr was a god of the sky, not a father figure, but responsible for weather. And so Zeus contains many of the properties of Baldr, but Baldr only has a few of that of Zeus.
Another good video. I wouldn't agree that Jesus and Balder are not similar myths. The mistletoe is associated with a sword, but I would steer more toward the Sword of Destiny, Fragarach, being the same symbolic piercer as the spear of destiny that pierced the side of Jesus. Fragarach being the sword of Mannanan Mac Lir who was considered a trickster god and a ruler of the underworld. Which also brings up Uranus castrated by his son with a golden sickle just as the Druids cut the mistletoe from the oak.
The spear/sword/mistletoe piercing the physical body to symbolize the end of the physical and rebirth, spiritual rebirth.
Could have agricultural basis as it is not far from a Cain and Able type myth. And Balder being the symbol of the birth and death of crops being killed by his brother the one who represents the free herder, hunter gatherer. Symbolizes the acceptance of agriculture and the demonizing of the shephards and nomads. Not a far stretch to read the myth of Cain and then associate that with the Caananites who did sacrifice their sons.
Like Tammuz and Jesus all the world weeps for the sacrificial lamb or bull, all except one who represents Satan, or Loki disguised as a giantess.
I would consider Odin's blindness in one eye to be relative to his son being blind. In that Odin had to sacrifice his one eye to see into the "other", spiritual, Real, world. He could see into both worlds, this world and the heavenly world. Hodr being blind may have meant he was not cognizant of this world, but was a seer, Tiresias type, who saw into the spiritual world.
I would like your analysis on king skjold from saxo gramaticus. Love your work
Thank you for watching, and I'll put that on my To Do list as no one has suggested that before. Thank you.
Nanna, Nana, INNANA the One of Mesopotamia? Now that's ONE HELL OF A STORY.
Yes, I will talk about Inanna one day, and the similarity of the names hasn’t escaped me, even though an etymological link is strenuous at best.
Thank you for sharing the germanic version near the end of the video. Why is there so little germanic mythology online (compared to norse)? I keep looking for the germanic version of Baldr and Hodr, but I only get the modern norse versions.
Because most “Nordic” experts on TH-cam aren’t…
I would really like to see u write a comprehensive encyclopedia styled book of all these stories and explaining it the way u do. I like the videos also, but I mean a reference like book that maybe goes into even deeper detail that pos u don't have time for in a video. I'd buy it. Or have u already written something by chance?
I am currently in negotiations for writing a book exactly about this, and so if an agreement is reached it probably won't be out until 2025, but it will be well worth the wiat.
Baldaeg Wodening.
Hrm. The way you render this at the end of the story very much reminds me of the tale of Persephone and Hades. There are many muddled details, but the pining after a woman by a god of the underworld, the agricultural nature of the deity that is brought into the underworld by their endeavors, and the lamentation and attempt to bring them back to the world of the living are all quite similar.
Should you be correct about the idea that this is a reflection of Neolithic Farmer religion, perhaps the same story has developed into both these tales. (And on a related note, perhaps Loki is included in this story as the architect of Baldur's demise specifically because the lord of the underworld *had* to be the one who is the perpetrator and it had to be a man because that's how it was in the original; thus, Hel would be ruled out, and given it could not be Odin, Loki was the only logical alternative in a version of the story that did not have Hodr filling that particular role.)
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment, it is appreciated.
feel like an idiot, but besides being cthnonic with Hodr, why didn't Loki kill Baldur himself?
feel free to do the hour for that question.
I did touch on this in the video, but maybe not clearly enough. Loki "(normally) never did anything evil, but managed to get others to do the evil, that was his way; but also in some versions it was just Hodr doing the killing without Loki, and in others it may have been Loki. But these versions of the myth have disappeared, and we can only make these assumptions based on what Snorri Sturluson has written.
holy smoke - i just realized, the myth of one brother killing another is also in the Torah in B’rashis/in the beginning, where Cain kills Abel. 🥀
It is, and I will talk about it one day as there are things that are similar but also different.
Ohhh! It clicked for me when the Weeping question was finally asked! He's the winter god, the cyclical one that has to die each year in order to come back with the spring! I remember these types of gods from my Pagan days. The weeping has something to do with rain important to planting (end of summer/beginning of spring?)
Thank you for a great video!
so in the bible we have the light and dark, we have two brothers, we the flood, and there are probably more.
is there a figure in mythology that Moses can be paired with?
thanks much - loved the way you covered this story. 🌷🌱
There is creation too, which aligns to the Indo-European stories, but we don't have figures that are aligned so well to Moses. Odin was there at creation, the flood, for Baldr, and for the end of the world, so you could argue that he holds that position, and that position is one that could also be aligned to Manu, the first priest of Indo-European tradition, a primordial being who came to Earth after he created it.
Is Baldr the equivalent of Apollo?
I wouldn't say they are equivalents, however there are some overlap in some of their attributes.
Bit of a Norse mythology fan. Also a big MCU fan. Which is why my Walker Hound is named Loki.
Thanks very much for these videos. They are helping fill in details on belief, religion, and cultural change.
And thank you for watching. I have ignored the Nordic myths for a little while, but I will return as they are my favorite of all myths.
@@Crecganford
Me too. I read the Larousse mythologies as a kid, and the Norse mythology spoke to me in a way the others didn’t.
I’m totally fascinated by our extinct non-Sapiens relatives too. I’d love to know what Neanderthals, Denisovans, Naledi etc. had in the way of myths, and how they might connect to the myths we know. Unfortunately myths don’t fossilize. Sigh.
Today i discovered Your channel.. really nice how You speak abut our history, myths and others historical facts.. I hope one day You will explore and present a Slavic mythology to others. We (I speak as Slavic ethnic) have a really beautiful history and myths off our Pantheon with many Gods that You can compare with Celtic, Germanic and Viking myths and beliefs. Hope You will find your time to explore this part of European history ... Thanks in advance
Thank you for watching the video, and yes, one day I will talk about Slavic mythology. I want to be accurate and so am taking my time pulling things together, but it will come one day.
Would you say that the Slavic God Chernobog and his brother Belobog come from the same PIE root as the Germanic Balder and Hoddr?
I'm not an expert on etymology, but looking at my reference material I cannot see an etymological link, but that doesn't mean their origins aren't the same. We just lack the clues about the Slavic gods to understand if they align to sky god and underworld god.
Yes. This was my thought too.
Is a cup of Whiskey acceptable?
Absolutely! I do enjoy a glass or two myself every now and then :)
Baldr og Høđr
Nice video Jon! The view about the waepon that killed Balder was new for me, so thank you for sharing. There are some other myths with the same motive. The Ossetians have myths about the Narts, who are demigods. Here we have the sungod Soslan who is killed because the trickster Syrdon asks the other Narts to throw objects to Soslan. Sounds very familiar, doesn't it? Then we have the Irish story about the death of Fergus. The King Aillil knew his wife Medb slept with Fergus. While hunting king Aillil said to the blind Lugaid he was aiming at a deer, and so he killed Fergus.
Well, there is some analoge with Christ. Christ was wouned be a spear of a blind Roman soldier Longinus. Christ was betrayed by Judas (cf. Loki). Ofcourse blind soldiers can 't serve in the army so maybe to be blind means to be ignorant. Maybe Hodur was not really blind as well but was ignorant and did not know what he was doing. After Ragnarok he returns with Balder, and Hodur can see because now he understands the faith of the gods ...
Thank you for watching, and such a great comment :) Very interesting
Thor Heyerdahl believed the Ir/Os/Alans/Ossetians (all names for the same people) were the source of much of Norse mythology, because of many cultural and mythological similarities. He was ridiculed by his peers, but I have to wonder. They even had a capital named "Asoigard" at one point, when they lived on the steppes southeast of the Tanais/Tanakvisl/Don, besides a tendency to believe their royalty were divine. Maybe the late version of Odin was indeed an Ossetian warlord who moved to Scandinavia after some kind of spat in the homeland.
@@jytte-hilden I wish I had the time to go into a detailed reply. But I will tackle this in a future video. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment
Balder’s story has always made me thing of Dumuzid/Tammuz spouse of Inanna/Ishtar.
I always wonder about the almost villain of the stories. Poor ol Hodr. We know even less about his character. In the first rendition of the story in your video, he unwittingly kills his bro, then in the second, it was him who was beloved and nearly Baldr who was the villain trying to force Nanna into a relationship she was not interested in. With BOTH those versions being kinder to his character, was he really so much of a villain as shown in the last? Is there more information on his character else where?
I know NOTHING about Norse mythology, so I really don't know apart from asking here and doing a google search.
Thank you for such a fascinating channel with wonderful material that I have never heard of before or had a chance to wonder about, until now.
You had more to say than Wiki, so I will have to be left to wonder about it all.
We really need to dig into the Neolithic gods these characters probably represent, and one day I will do that. And so alas, I have to leave you in wonder for a little longer...
💔
There are some truly heart breaking stories in the Eddas.
So you think they would have been the Norse equivalent of the Slavic Chernobog and Belobog and of the Roman Dieus Pater and Dis Pater?
That isn’t the first time the observation against the Slavic gods has been made, it certainly is worth consideration.
@@Crecganford The trick is discovering if they're related via a common preceding myth or just convergent cultural evolution.
the beloved John or 'Joses ' = Balder
the rejected James or 'Jacov ' = Hodr
They are the sons of Zebedeus ; 'who dwells with God' or is closest to the Sun. Jakob ;
'pretender, challenger, Yemo ? ' is the nickname of Andrew, Andreas, Drusus (= Hodur ? )
Esau the king is the twin-brother of Yacub the priest, Manus-Yemo = Melchi-Zadok.
Zebedeus = Mercury, the Messenger = the gold- or treasure-bearer = Balthasar/ Belsassar
Junias (from Juno = Youth) = Mars = the sword- or weapon-bearer = Gerardus / Mesech
Andronicus = Venus / Lucifer = the light- bearer = Caspar/ Sadrach = Samuel.
King or Prince and Priest = Michael & Samael, ' boanerges ' or ' walkures ' or 'twin-urges' or ' 'Demi-urg' aka the guides or 2 witnesses of heaven ( earth & heaven, thunder & lightning).
De-meter (an expression of Gaia) is the twin-mother, in OT ; Rebekah , in NT ; Salome.
It compares to the greek mythology 1) Hermes (the messenger), 2) Appolos (the destroyer) 3) Pan (revivor, life-givng spirit of nature), thrice great or Hermis trismegistis. Other names for the Twin are
Castor & Pollux (heraldic figures bearing rods or torches)
Ufus (bold or beardless, the youngster) & Rufus (bright red-head)
Pontus (dark surrounding seas) & Eather (bright surrounding atmosphere)
Hermogenis & Hymenaeus
Barn-abbas & Silas (the 'compaignions' of messenger/apostle Paul)
also Gemini, Thomas and Didymus (names for the 'twins').
Zebulon (dweller) & Naphtali (burning flame}
Potiphar (standing general) & Joseph (= Panneoh, the Pan-alike), both serving Pharaoh. Moses & Aaron (NT ; Jair )
Perez & Zerah
Machlon & Ghiljon (father Eliezer)
Phineas & Hophni (sons of Eli)
Mordechai & Haman
Malik & Sadiq, wicked zealot & vigilant pious, upholder & accusor
What are the titles of the old and new norse eddas ?
The is the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, but there are other Eddas based on the original manuscripts as the Prose Edda tends to be an amalgamation of these.
As Crawford has pointed out Frigg didn’t have mistletoe swear an oath because it was too young to worry about. It’s because in Norse society you had to be of a certain age for Oaths to be valid. This loophole is used in several Norse accounts for people to get around oaths. It would be nice if you were a bit more detailed, sometimes it’s like listening to a Wikipedia page.
you said about the link between Baldur and Osiris. Wouldn"t that make Hodr the same as the god of darkness Set? i would like to see comparisons between the 2 mythologys
Yes, almost certainly, and I do want make a video on that.
Also seen as Cain and Abel.
I am sure that some deep thinker remoulded everything available in First and Second Century Rome into what now is Christianity. The Mythos is inescapable.
The Norwegian rune poem connects the Birch rune to Loki saying: 'Loki was fortunate in his deceit', while Haevateinn is attested as a weapon made by Loki and kept in Hel's domain. This suggests that Mistilltein once was a birch dart with a different name.
Thanks for you add Turkish language. İ wanna know about is there a First night after marriage in your culture. Because i saw a dream about it didnt found anywhere.
I first read about this in the introduction to Norse Mythology in the back of EdithHamilton's Mythology.
I’ve been told that the gods and their stories were from Greece and were taken to Vikings by the people who survived Troy. Also that Snorrie Sturluson also claims this? Is this true.
That is what Sturluson wrote but was based on a common myth of the time.
Mistletoe: brings up a question I have been attempting to answer for over 50 years. I call it "12+1" - sacred trees + mistletoe - disciples + Jesus - Disciples + Buddha - Knights + Artur - Adityas + Surya - Jewels + gold breast plate - it goes on and on. Best I can conjure is there are 12 months (full moons) + 1 full moon. If you become interested, check it out.
The sun and the zodiac you mean... That's what it is, Astro theology.
@@ryanorionwotanson4568 No, in astrology, the sun is a planet. The +1 in the zodiac is Cetus. The deal is their are 13 full moons every month, only 12 months - hmmm
The intent of Loki to reign means to P his runes. mist his mark, and the immature aspect of mistletoe. chore lee? stop the rain. the air is one in all, yet we are one below who think we are one above. The symbolic meaning of letters LE? All lie for one vision mind body and soul. we preserve the intent of Loki to dead ball, ball dead no air desire... the LE aspect is the phantom identity which thinks it exists independent of everything else and claims possession without any sense of free share fresh air cannot be possessed. Sorry, and i really appreciate you sharing this content.
The love triangle is the key, there are two opposing gods of luminous darkness who dispute a woman, one god will end up spearing his opposite, killing each other cyclically, the woman will be shared, in times of darkness she will live with the god of the underworld and in bright times she will live with the solar hero, this corresponds to the only myth versioned by cultures of Indo-European origin, in reality the two opposing gods are one and the goddess is one, these are divided into four, the only god spears himself and sacrifices himself
The combined stories to me bear some resemblance to the Welsh story of Llew Llaw Gyfes who can only be slain by his rival Gronw Pebr in a very specific way which the latter is able to achieve through the advice and treachery of another.
Boulder was my Patron when I was pagan today Boulder teaches me kindness at least the edda version. Saxo grammaticus version is pretty hardcore
I was wondering how you think the reconstructed story relates to the Hades and Persephone myth. Since both have an agricultural basis and the attempted rescue by a parent deity.
I think it is very much related, maybe from an earlier more original source. There is just too much "coincidence" for it to be anything else.
29:34 i wonder if Hodr has any association with plagues and Vali yhe ending of that, in a reading that takes rain and drought into account.
I've often wondered could Nanna really be Inanna.
Yes, I have wondered this, and will look into this one day soon.
@@Crecganford The similarities are more than coincidental. Different branches of the same "Golden Bough".
I am an Australian and I have no real idea what mistletoe is. Or oak, beech, ash, etc.
I really enjoy your videos. My interest is the cthonic gods who are important enough to be added to succeeding pantheons.
Wow, just discovered this channel and love it. Thank you!
Thank you!
Wow thanks. That is very interesting. SPECIALLY The Indo Germanian Gods Video
Thank you for your kind words, and for warching
First time I have ever hit the stupid bell. Feel special
That’s the first time anyone has told me they have, it is meant to make a real difference. Thank you.
@@Crecganford well, you mentioned it helps you with the almighty algorithm and I felt that your work is worth getting sucked into the matrix 😉
What was Baldr's sword name?
Thanks!
Thank you so much for your support, I'm pleased you liked it.
Thanks!
I’m sorry, I have only just seen this. Thank you so much for your support, it is very much appreciated.
What do you think about the potential connections to mahabharata? Baldr is the "bright" or "white" god in keeping with a spring solar dying and rising aspect, meanwhile pandu "pale" takes the role of the father of the pandavas, who seem in a way to be humanized gods, a position i would expect a sun god to take in a story written when solar worship was more important, meanwhile hođr the blind god who seems associated with battle seems connected to dhritarashtra, the born blind king who fights for the kingdom in what would have been a massive unheard of war, meanwhile vidura is taking the position of the wise sage, and vidur, the silent god, is the one odin tells his secrets and presumably wisdom to. Thoughts?
I forgot also vidars mother is an outsider giantess and viduras mother is a 'servant' making her non related and the two brothers in mahabharata have different mothers potentially conntecting to the non related nature in one of the norse stories
Is there a link between this agricultural tale of dualism and zoroastrianism?
That's an interesting question, and one I will start to answer in a video in four weeks time :)
Lovely video, you present our history great! Would love to hear Mor sources mentioned for all your arguments, but that is properly not something that would benefit your subscriber count. But would love to hear where you found the stories from the near East, would love to read more :) Thanks for a nice video 👍
Thank you, I will try and do something
It's always interesting to me how myths change over time, sometimes using the same characters and symbols to explain or refer to very different ideas. The flip side of this can also be seen when we get stories explaining or remembering history using all or almost all different characters with similar frameworks. I wonder if, when we find this in myth and lore, are we seeing two different versions of the same older myth whose meaning has been lost to the successive generations through time and distance. I suppose so as this is a big part of the study of PIE.
The problem I'm having now in describing this idea is that I know I have noticed this before, but I can't think of the examples I want to use. Perhaps the flood stories are an example. In some, we get it as mainly being about a god, usually the head god, punishing humanity for wickedness or disobedience. In others, it often starts similarly, but ends up mainly describing the creation of humanity. The stories are similar, but the first type focuses primarily on the god who causes the flood and why they did it. The other type focuses mainly on the saving of the good things of the world and the creation of future humanity. The Abrahamic version of the myth differs from most because the same God that caused the flood also saved the progenitors of the future. This is in contrast to most other flood myths where a second, usually lower, god is the savior.
This idea I think is what you are expressing in the Baldr and Hodr myths. One features several just-so stories, where the other seems more like history.
Did I understand this right? What do you think made them go different ways with what seems to have been the same basic story?
Hi, and yes I'm sure this type of evolution and development of stories has happened like this. And the reason is cultural overlap, and it is one of the reasons I'm going to make a video on "Finding the Old Gods" (I've put a post to it in my Patreon). This I hope will show the way some of these cultural changes came to be, and why stories/pantheons of gods, developed
I just found a new channel. Very good video, ty.
Thank you so much for watching, and your kind words.
This was the best video I found on Baldur. Thank you!
Thank you, I appreciate your kind words.
Excellent!
I wonder what you think of theory that Baldr was an export of Ba'al by the Phoenicians. There's a lot of linguistic and archaeological evidence that the Phoenicians traded with North-Germanic tribes (e.g root-based morphology, lexicon of sea-faring/trade/war semantic fields which differs from other PIE languages, etc).
I would say there is some merit in saying they had influence in the diffusion of the story.
Some people say Jesus was a twin; love all the connective information. How did the Christians lose the female god's? It seems imbalanced
Christianity is an evolution of an evolution of an evolution of a religion. It took concepts so far as to almost be unrecognisable from its source, and the disappearance of gods, especially the female gods, and god’s wife (which I have made a video about), is one of the things that suffered in this evolution. I hope that helps, and thank you for watching.
It never had them. Christianity is the religion of (the teachings of) Christ. He emphasized that there was one God for all people, and all were of equal value to him, and you served him by serving each other. Oh and that ritual and purity were unimportant, things of man not God. It was very radically different from anything else at the time.
Late to the party on this one but these are gems!
Thank you!
Is it a tale of the Sun? Baldr takes three days to die just like the Sun from December 22-24th.
It could have some relation to this, it is hard to know its very origins, but I am still researching and I will present what ever I find :)
@@Crecganford maybe the Mistletoe has something to do with its seasonal appearance or ripening around Mid-Winter? I'm not sure about that I'm just surmising.
@@3rdeye671 All ideas are welcome, although we're still left with the problem that mistletoe didn't grow in Iceland.
@@Crecganford yes so like you said in the video the tale must be from much older times in Europe and was imported or well known in Iceland. As you also say Snori Sturlisson didn't appear to know what Mistletoe was either, yet it remains in the story.
The story also seems to allude to the figure of Lo'Ki as being a much later addition, possibly as a Christain equivalent to the Devil or Serpent figure replacing an earlier Cthonic underworld figure that would be clearly Neolithic in origin rather than Indo-European.
@@Crecganford and Hodr being blind relates to his Cthonic attributes as a figure from the Underworld the Light blinds him.
The SunKing is sacrificed by the Underworld Lord Of Darkness so the Sun can be reborn and it could be that mistletoe makes its appearance also at this time relating mistletoe as the weapon used to kill the SunKing by the Underworld Lord Of Darkness.
Saturnalia celebrates this Solar ritual but they worship the Lord of Darkness, Saturn on December 25th. I have also heard that the Druids held mistletoe as sacred and there was only a very limited and special time it could be harvested. If this time was around Mid-Winter then we have all the elements of a solar worship of the Sun's annual cycle of death and renewal. Just are we worshipping the newly reborn Sun or are we worshipping his executioner the Lord of Chaos, Roman Saturn and his feast of Saturnalia. If this is so then the religion is being very deceitful and false in what it portrays as doctrine.
I'm interested in how many gods and goddesses might have been in the earliest myths. Greek and Norse pantheons seem to have chosen fixed limited numbers, but those characters were developed from much earlier ones. With deities being amalgamated and split into more than one over time, would we be looking at a huge number of 'original deities' based on nature spirits perhaps, or just a few, like say, a sun/sky god, an earth/fertility goddess, a weather/storm god, and a war god?
So you would like to see something on the structure of pantheons from different belief systems?
@@Crecganford A comparison of the structures of the earliest known pantheons would be great. But I don't know whether pantheons were always a thing. In animism it's just spirits of everything, and in some early 'religions' there seems to be just a few simplistic personifications of natural phenomena (storms, sun etc), so pantheons seem to be a later construct to make deities more interesting for storytelling. A comparison showing either that there was a 'first common pantheon' concept, or that there was great disparity between the first pantheons would be very interesting to me.
HODOR! HODOR! HODOR!
Hold the door!
Høðer - [h3:ðer] is as close as I can come with a non phonetic keyboard…
"For instance, I would mention the scourging, the crowning with thorns, and the clothing in a purple robe, which show Jesus as the archaic sacrificed king. This is further emphasized by the Barabbas episode (the name means "son of the father") which leads to the sacrificed king."
[Psyche & Symbol, Carl Jung, 1958, Ch. 4 :Transformation Symbolism In The Mass, Sec. II. The Psychological Meaning of Sacrifice; d) The Archetype of Sacrifice]
Psychologically the case is clear, since the dogmatic figure of Christ is so sublime and spotless that everything else turns dark beside it. It is, in fact, so one-sidedly perfect that it demands a psychic complement to restore the balance. This inevitable opposition led very early to the doctrine of the two sons of God, of whom the Elder was called Satanaël.
[Psyche and Symbol, Carl Jung, 1958, Ch. 1: Aion, Sec. V: Christ, a Symbol of the Self, p.40]
Auto captions are hysterical, especially on the names. Christians would be the very best ones to know whether Balder or any god is Christ-like. Balder is. Plot points can turn to the opposite. I don't see what a reed or a thistle has to do with agriculture, but thistle does make me think of Sleeping Beauty pricking her finger on a thorn. Jealousy, Beauty, Betrayal, unfairly condemned to Death, the whole world crying, those are the important parts of the story.