The idea of Viðarr as a "keeper of balance" is an interesting one, particularly with the suggestion that his name reads as "wide ruler" - that could imply that his "domain" is, well, everywhere, which satisfies one idea of ruling widely. Man, I have thoughts, all over the place. Thanks for getting the wheels turning!
It could be a (very altered) version of the story of Kali and Shiva. Kali being Fenrir punishing the Gods for their duplicitousness but going to far. Thor being Shiva that sacrifices himself to stop Kali. And Viðarr being the vengeance/shame affecting Kali when she see her husband under her feet. Viðarr is silent like Shiva is silent when trampled by Kali (because Kali is so powerful and in a frenzy, no god can oppose her in any way).
i came here to say that! like the idea that he's a "spacial" deity. my favorite thing i've read (albeit it from a wiki page on him) supporting that is how his stance in the classic depictions of him are standing wide-legged, with his arms (or sword) in a vertical position, sort of symbolizing his domain. it's flimsy but i like how it clicks in my mind. i worship him intimately so i love researching and finding new ideas about him, considering there isn't much out there. there's also the belief that he's a nature god because of the cyclical life and death going on in his mythology (starting the pantheon anew with the other remaining gods after ragnarok). as well as his oath of silence- what are the parameters of that i wonder, because he talks i think in two separate myths? anyways. so many fun things to thing about!
@@alzwell160 I have an interesting linguistic thought about him as well; it would be tough to figure out when veneration of Viðarr came into its relative peak during the Viking Age, but if it lined up roughly with the periods where Norse mercenaries were active as the Varangian Guard, it might have roots in the Eastern Roman Empire. The ERE was a fair sight more multicultural than its western counterpart, with cultural and linguistic influences from a wide area. The titles "wazir" and "vizier" refer to governmental ministers, advisors, and administrators - individuals who have *broad* authority to ensure things work as intended as a sort of "power behind the throne." This role sounds applicable to Viðarr to some degree, and his name bears a bit of resemblance to those titles - maybe as a bit of cultural exchange and "Norse-ification" of the title, "Odin' s vizier" became known simply as Viðarr. Of course, this is TOTALLY just speculation on my part. I'm not a linguist or a historian or an anthropologist, but from a cursory glance the idea seems to maybe have legs. If so, Viðarr would arguably also be a testament to the relationship between those cultures - not as a "found" or "taken" deity, but as a title that evolved into the name we know him by today.
One youtube video and a read in wiki. Vidar also does the trials of Thor being second strongest only to Thor. And he has or Odin talkes with him. Last that i know of except his mother being mentioned to help Thor and Loke when getting Thors hammer back. At the last party when Loke enda up offending everyone almost until Thor gets mad and Loke leaves. But for Loke to get entrence in the first place, Vidarr reminded Odin of the bloodbrothers oath they took long again. One more intresting thing Vidarr is mention 2 times on the guest list. One writer said he was the god Janus in the roman paganisem and Visnhu from the hinduisem. ❤ Much good stuff.. 💙
I personally don't see the gods as a conglomerate- for me they each are entirely separate beings! im very familiar with his mythos including where he talks and him being second to thor! he's a very interesting deity and i wish there were more myths around him, especially since he's one of the survivors of ragnarok. you'd think a few more of his myths might've been preserved because of that! lol @@JulianFlling
My personal head canon about the mistletoe thing is that Mistletoe is so harmless that Baldur's mother overlooked it, believing in her arrogance that Mistletoe could never harm her son. But Mistletoe is very nice to look at, and so I can absolutely see ancient warriors tying sprigs of it to their spears instead of feathers or pelts. Instead of the spear being "made of mistletoe", maybe it was simply baring a few sprigs of it near the spearhead as a decoration. Baldur was protected from all the conventional things that could kill him, but something the Aesir perceived as being harmless wound up killing him in an unconventional way.
makes sense! another idea, it coulda been coated in juice from the berries or other liquefied version such as the magic used in forging when people would add things to the quench
Was anyone else first introduced to Vidarr via Genndy Tartakovsky's Primal? Long story short, Vidarr was the name of the 6th episode of season 2, wherein the main trio, Spear, Fang and Mira, are pursued by a viking chieftain and his eldest son, who are seeking vengeance after the massacre of their village that Spear and Fang are responsible for.
While Viðar is clearly seen as a distinct person in Snorri's Edda, I personally I think "Viðar" started as another name for Týr. Týr's name can be traced back to ancient references to an Indo-European god of the sky and sunlight. In Norse myth he both cares for and protects against the wolf, but weirdly it is Viðar who slays The Wolf at ragnarok, would make more sense for it to be Týr. In Grímnismál verse 39, when referencing Skoll and Hati, it starts by saying that Skoll hunts [the Sun] into "varna viðar", or the wood's protection (viðar here translating to "wood's"). Might well be a reference to the phenomenon refered to in Scandinavia as a sunwolf, which kinda looks like jaws of light closing on the Sun as it sets (into the protection of the woods). I suspect the name Viðar might be related to this and came to refer to the man of the forest that protects against the wolves. Could also explain why there is no mention of Týr's hall/home in Grímnismál, because Viðar's overgrown woodland is already mentioned. I'm probably forgetting some things there, but that's at least parts of my reasoning for why I think Viðar was originally another name for Týr, and Týr is actually a protector of the Sun. There's also some archeological evidence that hints at this, related to a place in Norway called Tysnes (Týr's, uh, I honestly can't translate nes. Tounge of land into the water, maybe?), currently the name of an island, but used to be just a part of the island which had the actual name (that translates to) Njord's Law-Area. The whole island seems to have been very important to followers of Týr, but I've already halfway forgotten most of the important details there. 😅
I've thought about that too, you know. There are these kinds of medallions that were very common in the migration period, they're called bracteates, and some of them seem to represent Tyr fighting two wolves. Often they have two dots above Tyr's hands that could represent the sun and the moon. I theorized that Vidarr could be the son of Tyr, perhaps avenging after he's defeated by Fenrir, who's probably related to garmr.
I have the strange feeling that Hodr had more responsibility than we know. Baldr is associated with light/brightness and Hodr is blind. Maybe these two characteristics have relevance in their dynamics. I'll keep the idea that Baldr's brightness is the reason why Hodr is blind and that Loki took advantage on that.
Perhaps it is meant to convey that we often get killed by things in the dark. Since the god of light was killed by one who lives in eternal darkness, or blindness in this case.
To me the morale of Tyr and Fenrir is how vengeance can "harm" justice, then Vitharr and Fenrir is how honour will always triumph over blind vengeance but Vali is a warning of blind honour and loyalty
One variation I found somewhere described Vidarr as the "God of the wide wastes" and that he spent more time just wandering alone then he did with his fellow gods. Those wastes were implied to be the arctic tundras and Vidarr was also described as second only to Thor in terms of strength but since it had never been put to test it might have been they were equal and Thors belt was the deciding factor. For a good and humorous take on Norse myth I can recommend looking up the "Valhalla" comics by Peter Madsen, they are pretty fun and covers some interesting bits as well as a appearance from Vidarr.
So glad this exists. It’s about time these two got the mentioning that they deserve ❤ Edit: also, I screamed when the name Fergus was mentioned, that’s my brothers name
I have always liked the idea of Vidarr being a god destined for basically one great and noble goal at a huge cost. A lot of the other gods get long, winding tales about their various trials, tribulations, and as much nuance that you can expect in the skimpy amount of altered material available. Vidarr, on the other hand, is largely a uni-tasker who is sometimes mentioned as a background character until his battle with Fenrir. He is the god that stops the rampaging rage-beast and avenges Odin. I imagine him silent and stoic if for no other reason the gravity of his purpose. Standoffish and singular in company and mind with the weight that he will essentially end Ragnarok with a huge feet of heroic bravery and strength, but that his glory will come at the price of his father's life and the very earth as it is known. An immense and cumbersome boot affixed to his foot and leg fashioned of thick well worn leather and some sort of mythical iron, the joints groaning as makes his long plodding and silent contemplative walks as he waits to be called upon to avenge his father and help lead a strange rebirthed new world that will literally form from the ashes.
Sounds like Hodr got the raw end of the stick regardless of the telling. Either he was fighting for a woman's right to choose who she loved (and a major underdog as he wasn't a god) or was blind and literally tricked into killing a beloved sibling.
I already imagine Ocean being spiritual by having two open books, one in each hand, yelling slurs and curses at long dead chronicle writers like Snorri and Saxo! Even if it isn't the case - I just wanna thank you! I truly enjoy listening to you retelling these old stories! When I was a child, MANY moons ago, I was told that Loki made an arrow out of the Mistletoe and then helped Höður use a bow, point, shoot, and kill Baldr. It's very interesting that there is such a similar story from old Celtic stories...
Vali is mentioned to have flowers grow where his arrows fall, this coupled with the fact that he kills Hodr, a god that seems to preside over darkness, that Vali is a god of the sun.
Raised Catholic - no longer practicing, consider myself an atheist but on a good day agnostic. Whatever the case, one thing I'm absolutely sure about is that this channel is awesome! Thanks, Ocean!
It always felt wrong to me that Hodr was blamed with the way the story was explained. That there might be missing pieces or different versions makes way more sense
My point is following order blindly is something only bad people does. The fact initially Hodr is hesitant make things worse because it means he knew he was doing something wrong.
Mistletoe is a parasite that attaches itself to trees, it’s possible that Bauldr as a god of light, spring and summer, was worshipped through an idol , specifically a tree such as a oak or yew, both strong and seemingly invincible.
You packed so much into this one, including turning a ton of stuff about Hodr, the idea of revenge, and Ragnarok on its head, which as a Lokean I have to answer for *all the time*. Having more background and some more sources to draw from always helps. Excellent video, as always, and a fantastic question about Vidarr to leave on, gonna give that one some thought for sure....
The idea of revenge must be understood in the contest of Norse society of the time. It is "revenge" as we understand it (fueled by rage, hate, etc.) or has it a deeper social motivation? If we contextualize revenge as "altruistic punishment" intended in reducing the gains of the adversary and make his profit motives moot, maybe revenge is not so bad in the long run. The mean is not the goal.
Thanks to Ocean I can now only picture Vidarr wearing a single Timbs boot which honestly sounds right for him lmao. Also thank you for calling out how Vikings really fumbled Harald Fairhair so much wasted opportunities with so many characters.
Reminds me of an old cartoon, the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Billy calls an exterminator on a giant spider, a cowboy-looking guy; walk in, walks back out saying he's going to need the "big boot," steps back into his truck, and comes back out wearing one huge cowboy boot.
@@konahrikb1578 omg thank you for making this reference and reminding me of that episode that is the greatest comparison I’ve ever heard for mythology 😂😂
I love your introductory puns. They way you put them up and deliver them sincere and earnest (most of the time completely serious even, this here was the first time that I recall you chuckling at the end) is just marvellous.
Viðarr could also be the replacement for Tyr. As a god responsible for justice, it would also give more motivation behind the vengeance. Fenrir removed Tyr from his place as high god by eating his hand. Viðarr would be a son of Tyr who takes his place as judge. But that's all speculation
Viðar might also be another name for Týr. It might be a reference to the wood ("varna viðar" literally protective forest) that protects the Sun from the wolf.
I don't remeber where I read it, but I saw Vidar being described as the god of space. He is known as the wide ruler, had the other gods make room at a table for Loki (how he did it silently is impressive), and of course creating space by ripping open Fenrir.
Ocean, this video truly validates you as a god of the pun! Well, they are always good. I've gotten to watch the TH-cam shorts of Ragnor and loved them! I liked that they show a lot of the humor, and intelligence the real vikings had. 👍💙🥰✌
This got me thinking about how revenge seems to be an equally powerful cycle as gifting. Snorri's creation of Ragnarok may be the Christian perception of the dangers of this cycle and is implying the need for Christian forgiveness. Would wergild, if perceived as a gift, count as a way they ended the cycle of vengeance?
Often the cycle of vengeance would be settled with a gift in the form of a judgement. In Njal’s saga this happens several times, and the same pieces of silver go back and forth between two families trying to end the cycle.
Also, just noticed, looks like you'll be coming up on 100k subscribers soon. I think TH-cam gives you a medal or whatever for that, in all seriousness.
Victor's iron arm shoe makes me think that it's based off of someone who was born with a significantly shorter leg than the other and had a shoemake specifically to even out their gate
I've always seen Fenrir as a personification of a loss of control. His hunger and anger and thirst for revenge destroying him, making him consume everything in his path. And so, the thing that defeats him is maybe an opposite of sorts. Like that peace you gain after years of trauma. Maybe he represents that?
Man...I need to get a suit This video was amazing buddy! As always you are one of the best orators I know of, and your choice of subject is particularly interesting I've always wanted to learn more about Vali.
Good job. I have seen som few youtube videos about vidarr&vali and things i have read mostly online. Vidar also does the trials of Thor being second strongest only to Thor. And he has or Odin talkes with him. Last that i know of except his mother being mentioned to help Thor and Loke when getting Thors hammer back. At the last party when Loke enda up offending everyone almost until Thor gets mad and Loke leaves. But for Loke to get entrence in the first place, Vidarr reminded Odin of the bloodbrothers oath they took long again. One more intresting thing Vidarr is mention 2 times on the guest list. One writer said he was the god Janus in the roman paganisem and Visnhu from the hinduisem. ❤ Much good stuff.. 💙
Taput ni so much for this one. I was very glad to hear the alternate version of Loki's involvement in Baldr's death, and there was a lot in this one. Plus you made me laugh, so a constellation of stars.
Ocean. Never. Disappoints.🤟 Great video opens up alot of questions and views I have never thought to consider. I always recommend your channel to people that want to learn about norse myths and beliefs. Thank you for all the work you do!
Great video, it's fascinating when a myth is told by two different sources because it tells us a lot about the relevance of the story and how it differed from place to place. To a certain extent this makes it a lot more interesting and open for interpretation, and i also find it amusing to speculate the motivations of the very people who wrote the sources. Concerning vidar, there's a Christian cross in England that possibly depicts him between the jaws of Fenrir, and the motive is intriguingly similar to representations of Tyr in migration period bracteates wich depict him fighting a wolf while simultaneously getting his hand bit. Perhaps there's a connection to be made between Vidar and the Fenrir/Tyr story complex.
I am deeply impressed by your knowledge and cross references. It is very rare that someone can tell me something abouth norse mythology I haven't heard of, but you Sir, you accomplish that feat every time.
Yay! New video! I've been working my way through your vids and am enjoing them greatly. I'm hoping to be able to catch one of your live streams at some point.
My interpretation of Baldr’s death and resurrection is that the Norse liked poetry and music and all pretty things, but there was no place for them in a world of warriors, but his resurrection implies they hoped one day there would be
It's more accurate to say that they did love those things, and evidence abounds for this, but that later Christians painted them as unrefined and simple killers.
Vidarr is also a representation of the imperishable force of nature, personification of the primeval forest, and the embodiment of regeneration, resurrection and renewal.
Ever thought I’d doing a video on the new god of war ragnarok game and the the way they represented the gods? I know they didn’t follow with some of the legends but the way they depicted against the mythology would be interesting to have your view on. You did a video on Thor which was really interesting. Be good to hear your view on the games sif, thrud, Odin, heimdall etc 👍🏻
Great video! I never liked Baldr. He reminds me of a brother of mine and the idea that Nanna wanted to be with someone else and then ended up stuck with Baldr in Hel is heartbreaking. As for the one iron shoe, I always thought his non-iron shoe is the one that all of the spare leather scraps went to in attempt to make it strong enough to match the iron one.
Off topic: I have very little knowledge about the Norse pantheon. But I am sensitive to gold. The gold(?) hammer you are wearing, which is especially striking against the dark background, immediately induced a contemplative state. My thoughts proceeded like this: (1) Hammer is a massive driving force. (2) Time is implicit in a massive driving force, (3) Space is implicit in a massive driving force. (4) Causal relations are implicit in a massive driving force. (5) Hammer can be appreciated as a symbol of cosmic manifestation.
My thoughts on maybe why Hodr gets the blame: Wouldn't he have known Loki's MO in general? He didn't question this being of conflict and balance about throwing a weapon at someone. Loki's just doing what Loki does as his role, Hodr more stepped outside it maybe? Maybe he had reasons to ignore that Loki could be up to something? Reasons not to question? Perhaps he had jealousy in some way like the Celtic story. As someone with disabilities i can understand how a disabled member of a group could have some bitterness towards an invulnerable highly loved member. I feel like mistletoe could have been incorporated into a spear design in some way if not a direct mistletoe to spear. I like other thoughts i saw in the comments too!
So most of the stories we have are riddled with useful information that occasionally gets overshadowed by the more fantastic parts. As in the oddly specific details that tie in with some poetic allusions. If we reverse engineer it by the reality to lore, mistletoe parasitizes on a certain hardwood tree, the Oak. And you can only tell that it is there during the season when the sun does not appear for long periods of time. A certain Æsa is usually connected to the Oak tree, who has a son that disappeared in the season the mistletoe appears. The Oak’s son dies by mistletoe as the World goes cold. Odin’s son dies by mistletoe and the World goes cold.
I’ve always seen a link to mistletoe meaning it’s name missile toe Could it mean that Balder the sun dies It’s a bit like Achilles with his ankle being the weak point So let me start again what I mean is Balder had a contest where the gods had to guess who he was in a foot competition So we have to my mind Two links to feet When it comes to Balder The sun starts to increase in light compared to darkness once it moves out of Pisces into Arie The part of the body in astrology is the foot This is where I see the link Achilles dies and balder dies and there’s a link with the sun in Pisces And Balder dies from a Missile and it maybe landed in his Toe ? And he has beautiful feet apparently Part of the cycle and the birth of the sunshine now greater than the dark Of course I’m not saying Achilles is the equivalent to Balder but I believe there are similar tales of the foot aspect in other mythology’s aswell if I remember rightly I’d be interested if you have ever thought of this perhaps If you think it’s stupid please let me know and i will walk 🦶🏼 🦶🏼 away from this idea
The word mistletoe doesn't have anything to do with toes or feet, though. If you look into its etymology, you'll find, that the Old Norse word for it was mistilteinn, with mistil being a word of unkown origin (we unfortunately don't know it's true meaning) and teinn meaning twig. Interetingly, there's even debate about whether it was a mistletoe at all with which Baldr was killed. Not only did teinn mean twig in Old Norse. It was also a kenning for sword. And back in the day weapons were often given names (think of Thor's hammer being called Mjölnir and so on). Some theories suggest, that Baldr might actually have been killed with a sword called Mistil. Which kinda makes sense, as a flimsy piece of mistletoe can hardly stab anyone to death? Many of these stories surely have deep symbolic and metaphorical meanings, though, and it's always interesting to dig into them.
@@Allegory_of_Wolves thanks for your reply Yea I’ve heard of the sword story before I know that mistletoe was not always called that but I just mention Is funny how it sounds like missilery toe It would be great if we really new what all the norse story’s truly ment But hay they are great as they are to
As someone with both really nice long hair and depression I can attest that not touching your hair for an extended period of time and then putting in a solid hour or two into brushing and washing it your hair will look mighty fine, worthy of a king one might say.
@@NBDYSPCL so there’s only six mentioned. Vidarr and Vali, Mod and Magni, and then Baldr and Hodr. But its probably not meant to be an exhaustive list.
I've heard that Viðarr was also a god of the forests? Is there any evidence to support that? Also, there's not enough media depicting the aftermath of Ragnarok. So much potential there.
I wasnt able to find that info. I’d be interested in knowing where you heard it. Sometimes there’s something to it, sometimes its a common misunderstanding.
@@OceanKeltoi So I couldn't remember where I'd heard it, so I did a bit of digging and found it in the Grímnismál 17 of the Poetic Edda, though it only seems to say that he lives there and isn't necessarily a god of forests.
It's not the translation that's usually given, but Viðar could also translate to "wood's", in other words the singular possessive form of the word wood. Could be related.
I would like to point out the similarities between the story of hoðr and baldr and the story of cain and abel. How I see it, it would make sense for christians to change the story so that Loki resembles the devil. If Loki being the culprit is just a late implementation by christians that would explain why the blame doesn't fall on him later.
I will admit, the idea of not maintaining my beauty will be difficult to keep ... buuuuut sacrifices must be made. And I suppose a few bodies to add wouldn't hurt 😈
Could you leave your captioned comments up just a *little* longer? After watching it like 10 times, neither my wife nor I can read the one right around 10:45. Great video though. Thank you. 🙏
@@OceanKeltoi A tip I’m certain will come in handy if I ever watch any videos on a machine with a keyboard. Unfortunately not as useful when streaming to a TV from a phone as I typically do, but thanks again. 👍
I personally find it interesting that Baldur, who has the kenning of the Fair One, is killed by a blind man, Hodr, who by definition is the only who does not see him in such a light, only for both of them to then rise again and see each other as companions around a game table, and in the Danish version it's all over a girl. That's a situation that I have definitely seen before. Was Hodr's death at the hands of Vali really vengeance, or the act necessary to gain a new perspective, one which grants a clearer vision of events for everyone? Likewise, Vidarr's killing of Fenrir could seen as bringing a sense of peace through the elimination of a threat that's been hanging over everyone for poor behavior. Tyr, god of justice, lost his hand over the way Fenrir was treated, after all. Once you clear out all the "wolves" who make things uncomfortable, everyone can sit down together again.
between these two and forseti, its really really baffling they weren’t included in Gow Ragnarok. with their themes of vengeance, violence, fatherhood and sons. these guys seem like a no brainer, almost like they were written for the series.
You've mentioned hodr was blamed for killing balder when he shouldn't have been but maby odin knew that when your blind you have third sight so maby hodr knew what he was doing to odin and he got punished
Convinced Ocean writes the script for his videos relatively quickly and it's the puns that takes the time.
Ocean the King of Pun's
I second this theory
Thirded
Are the trolls in Peter Jackson’s Lord of the rings trilogy accurate with the trolls in the original Norse mythology?
don't know, I always skip the intro
The idea of Viðarr as a "keeper of balance" is an interesting one, particularly with the suggestion that his name reads as "wide ruler" - that could imply that his "domain" is, well, everywhere, which satisfies one idea of ruling widely.
Man, I have thoughts, all over the place. Thanks for getting the wheels turning!
It could be a (very altered) version of the story of Kali and Shiva.
Kali being Fenrir punishing the Gods for their duplicitousness but going to far.
Thor being Shiva that sacrifices himself to stop Kali.
And Viðarr being the vengeance/shame affecting Kali when she see her husband under her feet.
Viðarr is silent like Shiva is silent when trampled by Kali (because Kali is so powerful and in a frenzy, no god can oppose her in any way).
i came here to say that! like the idea that he's a "spacial" deity. my favorite thing i've read (albeit it from a wiki page on him) supporting that is how his stance in the classic depictions of him are standing wide-legged, with his arms (or sword) in a vertical position, sort of symbolizing his domain. it's flimsy but i like how it clicks in my mind.
i worship him intimately so i love researching and finding new ideas about him, considering there isn't much out there. there's also the belief that he's a nature god because of the cyclical life and death going on in his mythology (starting the pantheon anew with the other remaining gods after ragnarok).
as well as his oath of silence- what are the parameters of that i wonder, because he talks i think in two separate myths? anyways. so many fun things to thing about!
@@alzwell160 I have an interesting linguistic thought about him as well; it would be tough to figure out when veneration of Viðarr came into its relative peak during the Viking Age, but if it lined up roughly with the periods where Norse mercenaries were active as the Varangian Guard, it might have roots in the Eastern Roman Empire.
The ERE was a fair sight more multicultural than its western counterpart, with cultural and linguistic influences from a wide area. The titles "wazir" and "vizier" refer to governmental ministers, advisors, and administrators - individuals who have *broad* authority to ensure things work as intended as a sort of "power behind the throne." This role sounds applicable to Viðarr to some degree, and his name bears a bit of resemblance to those titles - maybe as a bit of cultural exchange and "Norse-ification" of the title, "Odin' s vizier" became known simply as Viðarr.
Of course, this is TOTALLY just speculation on my part. I'm not a linguist or a historian or an anthropologist, but from a cursory glance the idea seems to maybe have legs. If so, Viðarr would arguably also be a testament to the relationship between those cultures - not as a "found" or "taken" deity, but as a title that evolved into the name we know him by today.
One youtube video and a read in wiki. Vidar also does the trials of Thor being second strongest only to Thor. And he has or Odin talkes with him. Last that i know of except his mother being mentioned to help Thor and Loke when getting Thors hammer back. At the last party when Loke enda up offending everyone almost until Thor gets mad and Loke leaves. But for Loke to get entrence in the first place, Vidarr reminded Odin of the bloodbrothers oath they took long again. One more intresting thing Vidarr is mention 2 times on the guest list. One writer said he was the god Janus in the roman paganisem and Visnhu from the hinduisem. ❤ Much good stuff.. 💙
I personally don't see the gods as a conglomerate- for me they each are entirely separate beings! im very familiar with his mythos including where he talks and him being second to thor! he's a very interesting deity and i wish there were more myths around him, especially since he's one of the survivors of ragnarok. you'd think a few more of his myths might've been preserved because of that! lol @@JulianFlling
My personal head canon about the mistletoe thing is that Mistletoe is so harmless that Baldur's mother overlooked it, believing in her arrogance that Mistletoe could never harm her son.
But Mistletoe is very nice to look at, and so I can absolutely see ancient warriors tying sprigs of it to their spears instead of feathers or pelts.
Instead of the spear being "made of mistletoe", maybe it was simply baring a few sprigs of it near the spearhead as a decoration.
Baldur was protected from all the conventional things that could kill him, but something the Aesir perceived as being harmless wound up killing him in an unconventional way.
makes sense! another idea, it coulda been coated in juice from the berries or other liquefied version such as the magic used in forging when people would add things to the quench
The story does offer some practical advice: If you're handed a weapon, check it yourself before engaging in any games with it.
Was anyone else first introduced to Vidarr via Genndy Tartakovsky's Primal? Long story short, Vidarr was the name of the 6th episode of season 2, wherein the main trio, Spear, Fang and Mira, are pursued by a viking chieftain and his eldest son, who are seeking vengeance after the massacre of their village that Spear and Fang are responsible for.
No I knew him beforehand but it was really cool to see him, or rather a mortal with his name, in primal.
While Viðar is clearly seen as a distinct person in Snorri's Edda, I personally I think "Viðar" started as another name for Týr. Týr's name can be traced back to ancient references to an Indo-European god of the sky and sunlight. In Norse myth he both cares for and protects against the wolf, but weirdly it is Viðar who slays The Wolf at ragnarok, would make more sense for it to be Týr. In Grímnismál verse 39, when referencing Skoll and Hati, it starts by saying that Skoll hunts [the Sun] into "varna viðar", or the wood's protection (viðar here translating to "wood's"). Might well be a reference to the phenomenon refered to in Scandinavia as a sunwolf, which kinda looks like jaws of light closing on the Sun as it sets (into the protection of the woods). I suspect the name Viðar might be related to this and came to refer to the man of the forest that protects against the wolves. Could also explain why there is no mention of Týr's hall/home in Grímnismál, because Viðar's overgrown woodland is already mentioned.
I'm probably forgetting some things there, but that's at least parts of my reasoning for why I think Viðar was originally another name for Týr, and Týr is actually a protector of the Sun. There's also some archeological evidence that hints at this, related to a place in Norway called Tysnes (Týr's, uh, I honestly can't translate nes. Tounge of land into the water, maybe?), currently the name of an island, but used to be just a part of the island which had the actual name (that translates to) Njord's Law-Area. The whole island seems to have been very important to followers of Týr, but I've already halfway forgotten most of the important details there. 😅
I've thought about that too, you know. There are these kinds of medallions that were very common in the migration period, they're called bracteates, and some of them seem to represent Tyr fighting two wolves. Often they have two dots above Tyr's hands that could represent the sun and the moon. I theorized that Vidarr could be the son of Tyr, perhaps avenging after he's defeated by Fenrir, who's probably related to garmr.
Yes, place names ending with -näs refers to a strip of land with water on both sides (like a tounge), a thin peninsula.
I have the strange feeling that Hodr had more responsibility than we know. Baldr is associated with light/brightness and Hodr is blind. Maybe these two characteristics have relevance in their dynamics. I'll keep the idea that Baldr's brightness is the reason why Hodr is blind and that Loki took advantage on that.
Perhaps it is meant to convey that we often get killed by things in the dark. Since the god of light was killed by one who lives in eternal darkness, or blindness in this case.
To me the morale of Tyr and Fenrir is how vengeance can "harm" justice, then Vitharr and Fenrir is how honour will always triumph over blind vengeance but Vali is a warning of blind honour and loyalty
One variation I found somewhere described Vidarr as the "God of the wide wastes" and that he spent more time just wandering alone then he did with his fellow gods. Those wastes were implied to be the arctic tundras and Vidarr was also described as second only to Thor in terms of strength but since it had never been put to test it might have been they were equal and Thors belt was the deciding factor.
For a good and humorous take on Norse myth I can recommend looking up the "Valhalla" comics by Peter Madsen, they are pretty fun and covers some interesting bits as well as a appearance from Vidarr.
So glad this exists. It’s about time these two got the mentioning that they deserve ❤
Edit: also, I screamed when the name Fergus was mentioned, that’s my brothers name
I have always liked the idea of Vidarr being a god destined for basically one great and noble goal at a huge cost. A lot of the other gods get long, winding tales about their various trials, tribulations, and as much nuance that you can expect in the skimpy amount of altered material available. Vidarr, on the other hand, is largely a uni-tasker who is sometimes mentioned as a background character until his battle with Fenrir. He is the god that stops the rampaging rage-beast and avenges Odin. I imagine him silent and stoic if for no other reason the gravity of his purpose. Standoffish and singular in company and mind with the weight that he will essentially end Ragnarok with a huge feet of heroic bravery and strength, but that his glory will come at the price of his father's life and the very earth as it is known. An immense and cumbersome boot affixed to his foot and leg fashioned of thick well worn leather and some sort of mythical iron, the joints groaning as makes his long plodding and silent contemplative walks as he waits to be called upon to avenge his father and help lead a strange rebirthed new world that will literally form from the ashes.
I see you are dropping Loki lore
how are you able to use emojis on youtube comment section?
@@bhasma7811 channel membership :)
@@ragingwitch8875 hows dat work? :o
@@bhasma7811 click the join button by the subscribe one
@@ragingwitch8875 ooo ok ty
Sounds like Hodr got the raw end of the stick regardless of the telling. Either he was fighting for a woman's right to choose who she loved (and a major underdog as he wasn't a god) or was blind and literally tricked into killing a beloved sibling.
I already imagine Ocean being spiritual by having two open books, one in each hand, yelling slurs and curses at long dead chronicle writers like Snorri and Saxo!
Even if it isn't the case - I just wanna thank you!
I truly enjoy listening to you retelling these old stories!
When I was a child, MANY moons ago, I was told that Loki made an arrow out of the Mistletoe and then helped Höður use a bow, point, shoot, and kill Baldr.
It's very interesting that there is such a similar story from old Celtic stories...
It's just good to know that none of your puns are Loki. 😄
I really love the comments about Vidarr's single boot. Little details like this in myth are so fascinating.
Vali is mentioned to have flowers grow where his arrows fall, this coupled with the fact that he kills Hodr, a god that seems to preside over darkness, that Vali is a god of the sun.
Raised Catholic - no longer practicing, consider myself an atheist but on a good day agnostic. Whatever the case, one thing I'm absolutely sure about is that this channel is awesome! Thanks, Ocean!
Came for the puns, stayed for the education...
I dig the moose antlers on Vidarr. Putting horns or antlers on aything automatically makes it cooler!
Agreed. Moose antlers on everything.
It always felt wrong to me that Hodr was blamed with the way the story was explained. That there might be missing pieces or different versions makes way more sense
It was always a little strange to me too. Discovering Saxo’s version was very interesting.
My point is following order blindly is something only bad people does.
The fact initially Hodr is hesitant make things worse because it means he knew he was doing something wrong.
There’s a theory Baldr’s death was somehow planned by Odin and I kinda like this
Mistletoe is a parasite that attaches itself to trees, it’s possible that Bauldr as a god of light, spring and summer, was worshipped through an idol , specifically a tree such as a oak or yew, both strong and seemingly invincible.
You packed so much into this one, including turning a ton of stuff about Hodr, the idea of revenge, and Ragnarok on its head, which as a Lokean I have to answer for *all the time*. Having more background and some more sources to draw from always helps. Excellent video, as always, and a fantastic question about Vidarr to leave on, gonna give that one some thought for sure....
Lokeans should be interested in my last three or so vids and some of the upcoming ones. There’s a slow burn happening.
@@OceanKeltoi I'm seeing that as I catch up on the past few videos, yes... 👀
The idea of revenge must be understood in the contest of Norse society of the time.
It is "revenge" as we understand it (fueled by rage, hate, etc.) or has it a deeper social motivation?
If we contextualize revenge as "altruistic punishment" intended in reducing the gains of the adversary and make his profit motives moot, maybe revenge is not so bad in the long run.
The mean is not the goal.
Helsa!
Brother I've been screaming about incomplete information on myths for 34 years now!🤣 Keep keep up the good work!
Lmao Vidarr rockin the Tim’s🤣
This is a very Vali-able video on the topic. It video should be shown Vidarr and wide. Thanks Ocean.
Thanks to Ocean I can now only picture Vidarr wearing a single Timbs boot which honestly sounds right for him lmao. Also thank you for calling out how Vikings really fumbled Harald Fairhair so much wasted opportunities with so many characters.
Reminds me of an old cartoon, the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy. Billy calls an exterminator on a giant spider, a cowboy-looking guy; walk in, walks back out saying he's going to need the "big boot," steps back into his truck, and comes back out wearing one huge cowboy boot.
@@konahrikb1578 omg thank you for making this reference and reminding me of that episode that is the greatest comparison I’ve ever heard for mythology 😂😂
@@livetowin8100 In the words of one of my favorite Bill Nighy characters, "I'm a treasure trove of useless information and I *love* to share."
I love your introductory puns. They way you put them up and deliver them sincere and earnest (most of the time completely serious even, this here was the first time that I recall you chuckling at the end) is just marvellous.
Viðarr could also be the replacement for Tyr. As a god responsible for justice, it would also give more motivation behind the vengeance. Fenrir removed Tyr from his place as high god by eating his hand. Viðarr would be a son of Tyr who takes his place as judge.
But that's all speculation
Viðar might also be another name for Týr. It might be a reference to the wood ("varna viðar" literally protective forest) that protects the Sun from the wolf.
Thumbs up at the pun is my ritual, let it never be broken lest some deity with thumbs comes and vengefully breaks mine.
i love how the past couple thumbnails have been metal af 🤘
I have insomnia and your videos help me sleep, which sucks because they’re really interesting.
I don't know if that should be taken with a grain of salt, sugar or paprika
I was just telling my brother about the tale of Vidar and Fenrir last night, It's one of my favorite stories
I don't remeber where I read it, but I saw Vidar being described as the god of space. He is known as the wide ruler, had the other gods make room at a table for Loki (how he did it silently is impressive), and of course creating space by ripping open Fenrir.
Ocean, this video truly validates you as a god of the pun! Well, they are always good. I've gotten to watch the TH-cam shorts of Ragnor and loved them! I liked that they show a lot of the humor, and intelligence the real vikings had. 👍💙🥰✌
I guess, in the end, Vidar will be forever waiting for that other shoe to drop.
This got me thinking about how revenge seems to be an equally powerful cycle as gifting. Snorri's creation of Ragnarok may be the Christian perception of the dangers of this cycle and is implying the need for Christian forgiveness. Would wergild, if perceived as a gift, count as a way they ended the cycle of vengeance?
Often the cycle of vengeance would be settled with a gift in the form of a judgement. In Njal’s saga this happens several times, and the same pieces of silver go back and forth between two families trying to end the cycle.
Also, just noticed, looks like you'll be coming up on 100k subscribers soon. I think TH-cam gives you a medal or whatever for that, in all seriousness.
Yeah. Working toward that silver play button
@@OceanKeltoi yep that's what it is
Victor's iron arm shoe makes me think that it's based off of someone who was born with a significantly shorter leg than the other and had a shoemake specifically to even out their gate
I've always seen Fenrir as a personification of a loss of control. His hunger and anger and thirst for revenge destroying him, making him consume everything in his path. And so, the thing that defeats him is maybe an opposite of sorts. Like that peace you gain after years of trauma. Maybe he represents that?
Man...I need to get a suit
This video was amazing buddy! As always you are one of the best orators I know of, and your choice of subject is particularly interesting I've always wanted to learn more about Vali.
Good job. I have seen som few youtube videos about vidarr&vali and things i have read mostly online. Vidar also does the trials of Thor being second strongest only to Thor. And he has or Odin talkes with him. Last that i know of except his mother being mentioned to help Thor and Loke when getting Thors hammer back. At the last party when Loke enda up offending everyone almost until Thor gets mad and Loke leaves. But for Loke to get entrence in the first place, Vidarr reminded Odin of the bloodbrothers oath they took long again. One more intresting thing Vidarr is mention 2 times on the guest list. One writer said he was the god Janus in the roman paganisem and Visnhu from the hinduisem. ❤ Much good stuff.. 💙
"I can personally attest that this works..." is that a Bald-faced (headed) lie?
Taput ni so much for this one. I was very glad to hear the alternate version of Loki's involvement in Baldr's death, and there was a lot in this one. Plus you made me laugh, so a constellation of stars.
Ocean the King of Pun's
Ocean. Never. Disappoints.🤟 Great video opens up alot of questions and views I have never thought to consider. I always recommend your channel to people that want to learn about norse myths and beliefs. Thank you for all the work you do!
Great video, it's fascinating when a myth is told by two different sources because it tells us a lot about the relevance of the story and how it differed from place to place. To a certain extent this makes it a lot more interesting and open for interpretation, and i also find it amusing to speculate the motivations of the very people who wrote the sources.
Concerning vidar, there's a Christian cross in England that possibly depicts him between the jaws of Fenrir, and the motive is intriguingly similar to representations of Tyr in migration period bracteates wich depict him fighting a wolf while simultaneously getting his hand bit. Perhaps there's a connection to be made between Vidar and the Fenrir/Tyr story complex.
Its interesting because that cross actually depicts him killing what appears to he Jormungandr. Its probably Vidarr but its hard to be sure.
@@OceanKeltoi well I guess it's open for interpretation :P looks like a two headed snake with wolf heads.
I am deeply impressed by your knowledge and cross references.
It is very rare that someone can tell me something abouth norse mythology I haven't heard of, but you Sir, you accomplish that feat every time.
Great video! Thanks for your work!
The Pun at the beginning sold me on the channel. Subbed and liked.
Great video and info. As always!
Vidar with one Timb was when I broke down laughing
Yay! New video! I've been working my way through your vids and am enjoing them greatly. I'm hoping to be able to catch one of your live streams at some point.
My interpretation of Baldr’s death and resurrection is that the Norse liked poetry and music and all pretty things, but there was no place for them in a world of warriors, but his resurrection implies they hoped one day there would be
It's more accurate to say that they did love those things, and evidence abounds for this, but that later Christians painted them as unrefined and simple killers.
@@ScottJB yeah, Christians are known to look down on everyone else and every other religion, throughout the history.
I suggest doing the early drops more, it's nice to have a little info to start the day. Also, you crack me up, the jokes in this video are gold.
I never get tired of listening to your puns 😂😂
Another amazing video! I love all the details and work you put into it.
I wish we had more sagas that survived the passage of time
Vidarr is also a representation of the imperishable force of nature, personification of the primeval forest, and the embodiment of regeneration, resurrection and renewal.
In the death of the light. Only creation will bring vengeance.
Ever thought I’d doing a video on the new god of war ragnarok game and the the way they represented the gods? I know they didn’t follow with some of the legends but the way they depicted against the mythology would be interesting to have your view on. You did a video on Thor which was really interesting. Be good to hear your view on the games sif, thrud, Odin, heimdall etc 👍🏻
Vidarr, I wonder if his silence is an oath? And his act of vengeance is more akin to protection.
In some stories I read I do think Vidarr is described as being able to talk but refuses, so I suppose that he does have an oath.
Aye a treat for work today
Great video! I never liked Baldr. He reminds me of a brother of mine and the idea that Nanna wanted to be with someone else and then ended up stuck with Baldr in Hel is heartbreaking. As for the one iron shoe, I always thought his non-iron shoe is the one that all of the spare leather scraps went to in attempt to make it strong enough to match the iron one.
Huh, that would make sense actually, interesting thought.
Love the new video keep up the good work. Thank you for your efforts!
Off topic: I have very little knowledge about the Norse pantheon. But I am sensitive to gold. The gold(?) hammer you are wearing, which is especially striking against the dark background, immediately induced a contemplative state. My thoughts proceeded like this: (1) Hammer is a massive driving force. (2) Time is implicit in a massive driving force, (3) Space is implicit in a massive driving force. (4) Causal relations are implicit in a massive driving force. (5) Hammer can be appreciated as a symbol of cosmic manifestation.
I don't even like puns but I love it here
One of my favourite videos!! :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@OceanKeltoi YOOOOOO!!! HE REPLIED!!!! LOL
Keep up the great work! :)
Wait for it, wait for it...alright alright
Thank you for the hair care routine
I try to gift my wisdom whenever possible
My thoughts on maybe why Hodr gets the blame: Wouldn't he have known Loki's MO in general? He didn't question this being of conflict and balance about throwing a weapon at someone. Loki's just doing what Loki does as his role, Hodr more stepped outside it maybe? Maybe he had reasons to ignore that Loki could be up to something? Reasons not to question? Perhaps he had jealousy in some way like the Celtic story. As someone with disabilities i can understand how a disabled member of a group could have some bitterness towards an invulnerable highly loved member. I feel like mistletoe could have been incorporated into a spear design in some way if not a direct mistletoe to spear. I like other thoughts i saw in the comments too!
Always love the puns at the beginning of your videos! :D
I have a 2 inch wide mistletoe branch that is very wood like from a huge downed oak tree. Id definitely say you could sharpen it and kill with it.
So most of the stories we have are riddled with useful information that occasionally gets overshadowed by the more fantastic parts. As in the oddly specific details that tie in with some poetic allusions.
If we reverse engineer it by the reality to lore, mistletoe parasitizes on a certain hardwood tree, the Oak. And you can only tell that it is there during the season when the sun does not appear for long periods of time. A certain Æsa is usually connected to the Oak tree, who has a son that disappeared in the season the mistletoe appears.
The Oak’s son dies by mistletoe as the World goes cold. Odin’s son dies by mistletoe and the World goes cold.
The elil story sounds like Greek Artemis & Apollo, Orion story too
I’ve always seen a link to mistletoe meaning it’s name missile toe
Could it mean that Balder the sun dies
It’s a bit like Achilles with his ankle being the weak point
So let me start again what I mean is Balder had a contest where the gods had to guess who he was in a foot competition
So we have to my mind Two links to feet When it comes to Balder
The sun starts to increase in light compared to darkness once it moves out of Pisces into Arie
The part of the body in astrology is the foot
This is where I see the link Achilles dies and balder dies and there’s a link with the sun in Pisces
And Balder dies from a Missile and it maybe landed in his Toe ? And he has beautiful feet apparently
Part of the cycle and the birth of the sunshine now greater than the dark
Of course I’m not saying Achilles is the equivalent to Balder but I believe there are similar tales of the foot aspect in other mythology’s aswell if I remember rightly
I’d be interested if you have ever thought of this perhaps
If you think it’s stupid please let me know and i will walk 🦶🏼 🦶🏼 away from this idea
The word mistletoe doesn't have anything to do with toes or feet, though. If you look into its etymology, you'll find, that the Old Norse word for it was mistilteinn, with mistil being a word of unkown origin (we unfortunately don't know it's true meaning) and teinn meaning twig.
Interetingly, there's even debate about whether it was a mistletoe at all with which Baldr was killed. Not only did teinn mean twig in Old Norse. It was also a kenning for sword. And back in the day weapons were often given names (think of Thor's hammer being called Mjölnir and so on). Some theories suggest, that Baldr might actually have been killed with a sword called Mistil. Which kinda makes sense, as a flimsy piece of mistletoe can hardly stab anyone to death? Many of these stories surely have deep symbolic and metaphorical meanings, though, and it's always interesting to dig into them.
@@Allegory_of_Wolves thanks for your reply
Yea I’ve heard of the sword story before
I know that mistletoe was not always called that but I just mention Is funny how it sounds like missilery toe
It would be great if we really new what all the norse story’s truly ment
But hay they are great as they are to
As someone with both really nice long hair and depression I can attest that not touching your hair for an extended period of time and then putting in a solid hour or two into brushing and washing it your hair will look mighty fine, worthy of a king one might say.
The "young gods" that survive Ragnarok always fascinated me. Vidar, Vali, Modi, Magni, Freya, Frigg, Hod, -Loki- , Hel, Thrud and I believe Baldur comes back?
Loki is killed when he and Heimdallr kill each other.
@@OceanKeltoi Ah my bad not sure where I got that from, list amended!
@@NBDYSPCL so there’s only six mentioned. Vidarr and Vali, Mod and Magni, and then Baldr and Hodr. But its probably not meant to be an exhaustive list.
@@OceanKeltoi clearly when I might have thought I'd read enough I _Vidar_ more reading to do.
Tyr's fight with Garm doesn't make sense.
Could be just added to kill him off.
I needed to audibly groan this morning. Thanks you for solving that problem.
I’ve got your back
Viđarr and his God tier timb
Mistletoe can be sharpened and made into a spear. I see it often.
Need to cover Ullr!
Your beard is nice, god jul!
I've heard that Viðarr was also a god of the forests? Is there any evidence to support that?
Also, there's not enough media depicting the aftermath of Ragnarok. So much potential there.
I wasnt able to find that info. I’d be interested in knowing where you heard it. Sometimes there’s something to it, sometimes its a common misunderstanding.
@@OceanKeltoi So I couldn't remember where I'd heard it, so I did a bit of digging and found it in the Grímnismál 17 of the Poetic Edda, though it only seems to say that he lives there and isn't necessarily a god of forests.
It's not the translation that's usually given, but Viðar could also translate to "wood's", in other words the singular possessive form of the word wood. Could be related.
Thought the pun would be Valiable
Every intro joke you do is better than the last dude
I would like to point out the similarities between the story of hoðr and baldr and the story of cain and abel. How I see it, it would make sense for christians to change the story so that Loki resembles the devil. If Loki being the culprit is just a late implementation by christians that would explain why the blame doesn't fall on him later.
I will admit, the idea of not maintaining my beauty will be difficult to keep ... buuuuut sacrifices must be made. And I suppose a few bodies to add wouldn't hurt 😈
Could you leave your captioned comments up just a *little* longer? After watching it like 10 times, neither my wife nor I can read the one right around 10:45. Great video though. Thank you. 🙏
You can cycle through frame by frame with the ., buttons
@@OceanKeltoi A tip I’m certain will come in handy if I ever watch any videos on a machine with a keyboard. Unfortunately not as useful when streaming to a TV from a phone as I typically do, but thanks again. 👍
Could you make a video of your thoughts of Patrik Robinson recpnstructions of Thor and Odin?
I personally, think they look great
I personally find it interesting that Baldur, who has the kenning of the Fair One, is killed by a blind man, Hodr, who by definition is the only who does not see him in such a light, only for both of them to then rise again and see each other as companions around a game table, and in the Danish version it's all over a girl. That's a situation that I have definitely seen before.
Was Hodr's death at the hands of Vali really vengeance, or the act necessary to gain a new perspective, one which grants a clearer vision of events for everyone?
Likewise, Vidarr's killing of Fenrir could seen as bringing a sense of peace through the elimination of a threat that's been hanging over everyone for poor behavior. Tyr, god of justice, lost his hand over the way Fenrir was treated, after all. Once you clear out all the "wolves" who make things uncomfortable, everyone can sit down together again.
I’m Harald Finehair and I’m worth it😂😂
I am curious where do the gods go when they die?
between these two and forseti, its really really baffling they weren’t included in Gow Ragnarok. with their themes of vengeance, violence, fatherhood and sons. these guys seem like a no brainer, almost like they were written for the series.
Vidar is silence Vali is darkness.
Isn't Vidarr also a kind of forest god? I might've mixed something up tho
Oh, and I have one question. How to combine meditation with norse paganism?
I wish the norse wrote their stuff down UGGHHH! I love history, but hate it too
You've mentioned hodr was blamed for killing balder when he shouldn't have been but maby odin knew that when your blind you have third sight so maby hodr knew what he was doing to odin and he got punished
Can you do a video about the seven gods that survived Ragnarok?
11:14 - Norse themes? Incoherence Shouting as a Spiritual Practice? Ocean is the Dragonborn! All hail Ocean! Hail the Dragonborn! 😂