'Running to the sound of pain' is what the Army's been doing since its birth, or are people only happy when the Army runs towards pains that are comfortable to them?
Andy, I appreciate your viewpoint. You have delved deeply into the scriptures and have grasped the practical side of walking the walk. I miss you, buddy. Blessings.
It is sad that this is becoming a common issue amongst Christians of all denominations. On the outside looking in, I’m very appreciative of these perspectives. Praying for this unsettling issues.
I so wish you'd had an appointment outside of the US before you finished as an Officer, Andy. One of the things that this episode highlights - so very clearly - is the deep political polarization that is such a part of American society, and finds expression even within the Church, and the Army. (for clarity, I love America, and it's people. I've been a regular visitor for over 30 years, and have many family members and friends in the US. My comments are not anti-American, but just a pointer towards the fact that the political and social tension is somewhat unique) The conversation comes across here as viewed entirely through a particular culturally conservative prism which doesn't particularly travel well internationally, and is not especially reflective of the global movement. I'd like to have heard some more about the nature of the smear campaign, which has been wilfully engineered, most likely with the help of some Salvationists. It's been damaging in all kinds of ways. The demonisation of the ISJC has been disappointing, too. (I'm not suggesting you have done that, but there are plenty of folks who have)
Agree, as a Salvationist, made me cringe in parts. Honestly amazed at how much of an issue to the USA this has become, I honestly can't understand what the issue is. Shame the ISJC have taken Let's talk about racism off the website for now. Don't see what the problem is with this resource and feel disturbed that so many people do...
Very good points. For the most part, I was shaking my head in agreement and cringing at the same time. As a person who has been an officer for 18 years and 23 more to go before retirement, I have asked myself if the Army will be around when I retire. We will continue to preach the Word and meet human needs without discrimination. In my opinion, that also goes for the other side as well.
Great and informative episode on the Salvation Army going woke! I have a question, who has the right to voice what the Salvation Army stands for and believes? The people as a whole or it’s leaders?
That's a really good question. By people, do you mean the public, ie. donors? Or Salvationists, the people who are members or regular attendees of the church, as well as volunteers?
I think leaders generally have that role. Still, officers are soldiers first and we all have signed the articles of war/soldiers' covenant. I think that covenant is what connects us. I wrote this article on that subject - andymilleriii.com/articles/on-changing-the-army
There needs to be a deeper theological/political view scrutiny of those placed in leadership as it makes or breaks what happens in the Territories. My entire 27 years with the USS has been enlightening. Comm. Phil Needham started up Corps in the South with Hispanic, Korean, and other leaders in charge and they blossomed in the 90s. Then in the 2000s with a leadership change, importing someone from another country unaware of the South's changes or history, implemented a rigid anti-minority, English only, type structure for the South. It was a disaster as more than a dozen minority Corps were shut down, and many minority Soldiers left TSA. The loss of these members was overlooked as other things seemed to be the priority. I think this woke issue is 'opinion of TSA focused', one to appease the indoctrinated youth, and not Biblically focused. Andy said it, 80% (or more) are conservative in TSA as 'conservative' morals and values pair up better with the holiness of God (and most minorities are as well). Trying to appease people who embrace the world's woke ideology will never bring any good fruit as it is a loopy philosophical condemnation of a certain race (something we are born with and cannot change), and they strongly condemn not just 'whites', but all Christians, conservatives, and anyone not of their rigid mindset. These folks are like Saul, and not Paul. I know because I read a lot of what they produce, comment on, and as we see now, you give an inch and a mile is taken. They know TSA is mostly Biblical, white in the US, and a real light and contender in supporting the poor, and socially outcast, and we cannot forget that many want to see us crash & burn. Even fake 'conservatives' like Bill O'Riley attacked us in the past so we will never please all, but we must please our Lord Jesus Christ doing what we do for love without discrimination.
Interesting idea...would TSA ever divide? My thought is that process has begun as there's been a fracture. The different pieces of that fracture end up in different places and a divide means broken off pieces go to same spot. (Would The Volunteers of America be an appropriate example of this?) Now I see officers and soldiers leaving but going to different places. Seems a divide may be a better option to whithering away. Interesting show.
Great podcast. One thing I would add to the conversation is that while many in the USA are conservative, I have been told by Salvationists in Europe and Australia that the Army is very progressive and support same sex marriage and are lax on the authority of Scripture.
It’s too bad you are labeling an honest attempt to encourage our people to examine themselves on the issue of racism as “woke” ideology. Have I personally participated in any racist behavior? Have I been culturally insensitive? If so, confess and repent. Simple. The Army in my country (Canada) is mostly white and there are very few people of colour in it. Why is that? Is it wrong to ask if our leadership structures are missing something when in a diverse country we are anything but diverse? Asking questions, having a dialogue, and challenging each other is good and shows signs of health. I also note that you failed to read the letter put out by National HQ about this. You also are talking about us not to us - meaning why aren’t you talking about this with one of the leaders? Did you invite someone from HQ to the podcast to talk about it? I’m not sure you represented us (as one of us?) as well as you could have. Perhaps you could do another show and have on one of the leaders from HQ?
@@RobReardon Thanks for speaking up. I feel like I've been exposed to a whole sub SA world I had no idea existed. Mindsets are quite different here in Europe - in general. All pretty crazy...
I have a feeling if this honest attempt to encourage your people to examine themselves on the issue of racism hadn't come in the middle of a tidal wave of critical race theory in government, social media, education, and business that it wouldn't be labelled as woke ideology. However, given that this attempt has indeed come during a mass "all white people are born racist and will be racist all their lives" as per Robin DiAngelo and Ibram X Kendi books, I think the concern over the effect on donations and membership if the organization begins berating the majority of its members for their racism is a legitimate concern. I'm not trying to imply the attempt to combat racism isn't sincere. I'm saying the potential APPEARANCE of this being a cynical attempt to virtue signal in order to head off any critical race theory twitter mobs is something to consider. I realize since you put woke as "woke" you are probably one of those people who deny that wokism exists, but maybe you can put aside your personal opinions and acknowledge that even if you think wokism is fake news, there are millions of people who are concerned about it and do see it as a problem in society and your organization could suffer in major ways if it simply blows those concerns off.
Funnily enough, nowhere in the material were the terms “woke” or “critical race theory” was ever used. At the same time, the Salvation Army has been predominantly influenced by British white leadership worldwide. It is only recently that local populations have been leading locally. Racism has been a part of the history of the Salvation Army. For instance, in the US Central Territory, there have only been two divisional commanders who were black in the over 125 years they have existed. That’s not exactly diverse.
@Irie Man Yes. The Salvation Army was started in Great Britain in 1865. The ranks, military structure, music, bands, etc., is predominantly British and has been. There has been virtually no change. There have been no non-white Generals of The Salvation Army since its foundation. The vast majority have been white British males.
Thanks for the conversation! Praying! 🙏
I stopped giving as soon as it came out. I dont give to anything since..
Great conversation. "Run to the sound of the pain". Thank you for the dialogue. Revival and Accountability. Praying for us all.
'Running to the sound of pain' is what the Army's been doing since its birth, or are people only happy when the Army runs towards pains that are comfortable to them?
Andy, I appreciate your viewpoint. You have delved deeply into the scriptures and have grasped the practical side of walking the walk. I miss you, buddy. Blessings.
It's so awful if one of the most humanitarian Christian assistance non profit organization, has gone woke. Sad Day if true.
I'm White and will keep my Green money Thank You Very Much.
Thank you for sharing and teaching. Great insight and I particularly like your comments about giving to the local Salvation Army.
It is sad that this is becoming a common issue amongst Christians of all denominations. On the outside looking in, I’m very appreciative of these perspectives. Praying for this unsettling issues.
I so wish you'd had an appointment outside of the US before you finished as an Officer, Andy.
One of the things that this episode highlights - so very clearly - is the deep political polarization that is such a part of American society, and finds expression even within the Church, and the Army.
(for clarity, I love America, and it's people. I've been a regular visitor for over 30 years, and have many family members and friends in the US. My comments are not anti-American, but just a pointer towards the fact that the political and social tension is somewhat unique)
The conversation comes across here as viewed entirely through a particular culturally conservative prism which doesn't particularly travel well internationally, and is not especially reflective of the global movement.
I'd like to have heard some more about the nature of the smear campaign, which has been wilfully engineered, most likely with the help of some Salvationists. It's been damaging in all kinds of ways.
The demonisation of the ISJC has been disappointing, too. (I'm not suggesting you have done that, but there are plenty of folks who have)
Couldn't have said it any better Johnny Laird
Agree, as a Salvationist, made me cringe in parts. Honestly amazed at how much of an issue to the USA this has become, I honestly can't understand what the issue is. Shame the ISJC have taken Let's talk about racism off the website for now. Don't see what the problem is with this resource and feel disturbed that so many people do...
Also, two white men talking about the 'woke agenda' is pretty interesting...
Very good points. For the most part, I was shaking my head in agreement and cringing at the same time. As a person who has been an officer for 18 years and 23 more to go before retirement, I have asked myself if the Army will be around when I retire. We will continue to preach the Word and meet human needs without discrimination. In my opinion, that also goes for the other side as well.
Being woke is a good thing. it's a crying shame that lesser people cannot comprehend that.
Great and informative episode on the Salvation Army going woke! I have a question, who has the right to voice what the Salvation Army stands for and believes? The people as a whole or it’s leaders?
That's a really good question. By people, do you mean the public, ie. donors? Or Salvationists, the people who are members or regular attendees of the church, as well as volunteers?
I think leaders generally have that role. Still, officers are soldiers first and we all have signed the articles of war/soldiers' covenant. I think that covenant is what connects us. I wrote this article on that subject - andymilleriii.com/articles/on-changing-the-army
@@Amybirks_pem Though accountable to the donors, I am referring to those who call the Salvation Army their church.
@@andymilleriii thanks!
There needs to be a deeper theological/political view scrutiny of those placed in leadership as it makes or breaks what happens in the Territories. My entire 27 years with the USS has been enlightening. Comm. Phil Needham started up Corps in the South with Hispanic, Korean, and other leaders in charge and they blossomed in the 90s. Then in the 2000s with a leadership change, importing someone from another country unaware of the South's changes or history, implemented a rigid anti-minority, English only, type structure for the South. It was a disaster as more than a dozen minority Corps were shut down, and many minority Soldiers left TSA. The loss of these members was overlooked as other things seemed to be the priority. I think this woke issue is 'opinion of TSA focused', one to appease the indoctrinated youth, and not Biblically focused. Andy said it, 80% (or more) are conservative in TSA as 'conservative' morals and values pair up better with the holiness of God (and most minorities are as well). Trying to appease people who embrace the world's woke ideology will never bring any good fruit as it is a loopy philosophical condemnation of a certain race (something we are born with and cannot change), and they strongly condemn not just 'whites', but all Christians, conservatives, and anyone not of their rigid mindset. These folks are like Saul, and not Paul. I know because I read a lot of what they produce, comment on, and as we see now, you give an inch and a mile is taken. They know TSA is mostly Biblical, white in the US, and a real light and contender in supporting the poor, and socially outcast, and we cannot forget that many want to see us crash & burn. Even fake 'conservatives' like Bill O'Riley attacked us in the past so we will never please all, but we must please our Lord Jesus Christ doing what we do for love without discrimination.
They have been for years..
No more!
Interesting idea...would TSA ever divide?
My thought is that process has begun as there's been a fracture. The different pieces of that fracture end up in different places and a divide means broken off pieces go to same spot. (Would The Volunteers of America be an appropriate example of this?) Now I see officers and soldiers leaving but going to different places.
Seems a divide may be a better option to whithering away.
Interesting show.
American Rescue Workers would be a good comparison as well.
Great podcast. One thing I would add to the conversation is that while many in the USA are conservative, I have been told by Salvationists in Europe and Australia that the Army is very progressive and support same sex marriage and are lax on the authority of Scripture.
I believe that is true. I guessed 80% in the USA are conservative, I have heard that it's more like 50% in the locations you mention.
Appreciated this
Would you all condemn Christ for being "woke"?
Definately got greedy
They use the poor
I don't see the links. Am I not looking in the correct place?
Sorry, you can find them here - andymilleriii.com/articles/has-the-salvation-army-gone-woke
It’s too bad you are labeling an honest attempt to encourage our people to examine themselves on the issue of racism as “woke” ideology. Have I personally participated in any racist behavior? Have I been culturally insensitive? If so, confess and repent. Simple. The Army in my country (Canada) is mostly white and there are very few people of colour in it. Why is that? Is it wrong to ask if our leadership structures are missing something when in a diverse country we are anything but diverse? Asking questions, having a dialogue, and challenging each other is good and shows signs of health.
I also note that you failed to read the letter put out by National HQ about this. You also are talking about us not to us - meaning why aren’t you talking about this with one of the leaders? Did you invite someone from HQ to the podcast to talk about it? I’m not sure you represented us (as one of us?) as well as you could have. Perhaps you could do another show and have on one of the leaders from HQ?
This is really an offensive podcast/video aimed, in my opinion, as personal platform promotion and little else.
@@RobReardon Thanks for speaking up. I feel like I've been exposed to a whole sub SA world I had no idea existed. Mindsets are quite different here in Europe - in general. All pretty crazy...
I have a feeling if this honest attempt to encourage your people to examine themselves on the issue of racism hadn't come in the middle of a tidal wave of critical race theory in government, social media, education, and business that it wouldn't be labelled as woke ideology. However, given that this attempt has indeed come during a mass "all white people are born racist and will be racist all their lives" as per Robin DiAngelo and Ibram X Kendi books, I think the concern over the effect on donations and membership if the organization begins berating the majority of its members for their racism is a legitimate concern.
I'm not trying to imply the attempt to combat racism isn't sincere. I'm saying the potential APPEARANCE of this being a cynical attempt to virtue signal in order to head off any critical race theory twitter mobs is something to consider.
I realize since you put woke as "woke" you are probably one of those people who deny that wokism exists, but maybe you can put aside your personal opinions and acknowledge that even if you think wokism is fake news, there are millions of people who are concerned about it and do see it as a problem in society and your organization could suffer in major ways if it simply blows those concerns off.
I am very sympathetic to The Salvation Army's position on the ISSUE that fomented this episode. May God bless The Salvation Army!
Funnily enough, nowhere in the material were the terms “woke” or “critical race theory” was ever used. At the same time, the Salvation Army has been predominantly influenced by British white leadership worldwide. It is only recently that local populations have been leading locally. Racism has been a part of the history of the Salvation Army. For instance, in the US Central Territory, there have only been two divisional commanders who were black in the over 125 years they have existed. That’s not exactly diverse.
@Irie Man Yes. The Salvation Army was started in Great Britain in 1865. The ranks, military structure, music, bands, etc., is predominantly British and has been. There has been virtually no change. There have been no non-white Generals of The Salvation Army since its foundation. The vast majority have been white British males.