@@brianhimmelman420 is someone using those words? I’m not able to comment until I drive it, but accounts from people who have driven the car seem to corroborate that all manual Porsches (unfortunately) have very tall gearing. So is this “game changing”? No idea. Is it a welcome change? Absolutely. Is 8% enough? I’m sure most would sacrifice even more top end speed for even shorter gearing; as is, you can only get two shifts in (to 3rd gear) before you’re breaking speed limits nearly everywhere, and who outside of those with access to the autobahn would ever get anywhere close to the S/T’s 186mph top speed?
Have commented this before, I cannot get over how beautiful your GT3 Touring spec is. That blue with those wheels is simply mesmerizing. As far as the comparison between the two goes, the ST reads as diminishing returns to me. Flywheel and its impact on the driving experience aside, the other weight reductions don't seem worth it to me. You're buying a giant hunk of metal -- no need for that level of obsession. Just be happy you're even able to buy any 911.
George, straight up, you have a fantastic GT3, with a lot of love and attention put into it. Hearing all your reviews of the ST, I'm convinced that you're trying to convince yourself the little extra in the look and driving feel is more than it's really worth. These vehicles are catastrophically expensive, and especially after hearing your discussion with Mark, I feel car prices have gotten out of hand. Rather, be thankful you're in a financial position to accept Porsche's pricing to own one in the first place, without financing - an impossibility for almost everybody. Don't be like those people (especially in California) where the more they have the more they want. You're cool just the way you are with the car you have!
The interior door handle loops are pretty bad. You need two hands to open the door. One to pull the loop and another to push the door open. May look cool, but for daily use, it is very annoying.
I see MM and Porsche, I click! As usual, MM proves that he is the genuine TH-cam authority on all things Porsche including all its nuances! Love both cars, but the S/T is the grail 911!
MotoMan, your knowledge of 911 options is encyclopedic. Regardless of the complicated and costly interior selections you made on your blue car I hope you still get out there and enjoy the drive.
Great comparison Motoman! I will keep my fingers crossed for you to get an ST, especially at sticker. 🙂 I would like to add to minor points: 1. the lower top speed is probably more related to the 8% shorter gearing of the ST rather than the higher Cd, 2. the Porsche depicted in the Volvo ad seems to be a 944.
He has a much better chance of getting struck by lightning while in his bath tub than getting an ST for MSRP. I actually know of one local Porsche dealer that sold a customer an ST at MSRP but it required him giving them his 992 GT3 Touring….. yes, he GAVE them his $250k car in order to get an ST 🤦🏻♂️
But seriously, a car with “Porsche” and a big racing number patch on the door is screaming to live at the track, regardless of how “daily-able” it is. Great video.
I honestly think your car is better, I get that S/T is rarer and all the stuff, but fact that it’s so rare would imo make you drive the car less, because you would feel “like you have to” preserve it since there are only 1963 of these compare to this GT3 Touring is much more “production car” and you can enjoy it all you want and put more miles on it.
If you’re comfortable enough to blithely put miles on a gt3t, you’re probably fine doing so in an s/t. A gt3t is hardly an inexpensive every man’s car.
@@hbullockI see massive difference in 200k vs 300k car, not to mention in case something would happen with gt3t and car would become totaled and you get the money from insurance you can just go out in the market with used or even new cars and buy another touring or just normal GT3 since it’s basically same car woth both options of manual and pdk no problem, there are plenty of them in the market, wanna see you do the same with S/T. It’s also relative to other owners there are plenty of GT3s in general and a lot of people will be babying them, but also a lot of them will be putting a lot of miles on them without hesitation, backroad miles, track miles etc. While with S/T sooo much more people will be babying the car since it’s so rare and limited and they can’t just get another one, so every mile you put on S/T will lose you MUCH more money compare to regular GT3. You can check the same thing with 991.2 GT3 vs 911R. There are plenty of GT3 selling with 100k kms while there is basically zero 911R with that mileage. Imagine being that one dude who drives shit out of your 911R or S/T and you clock 100k on it and you decide to sell it in future… you will have to go drastically down with the price, since you will be most likely the only one who is selling such high mileage limited car, not to mention we are speaking about 300k car which definitely isn’t for general dudes anymore these people who get to buy them are definitely in different league to your average GT3 owner and those people if they go to the market for S/T they don’t care about money anymore and they want pristine car no matter the price, which will nuke the price of your 100k km car even more. So no gt3 isn’t every man’s car, but S/T is in the league of its own and would cost you significantly more to properly enjoy. It’s like comparing base 911 to GT3. You will get away with putting miles on some 992 C or CS or even Turbo much more than GT3 because even more people put miles on them and there are much more base 911s, it’s all relative to number of cars produces and how many miles other owners are putting on them.
@@anmu9038 That’s kind of my point. S/T price (especially with adm or “adm”) added in is very high. If you can afford an S/T, you can “afford” to put miles on it. I’m not saying people will. Most people with big money think of everything in terms of money, so they will tend to want to preserve value, but that’s not the same thing as “needing” to preserve value, if you see what I mean. It’s more a choice for them than a real financial imperative. I guess the reality is most will end up in the hands of collectors and speculators, not drivers, and that will determine their fate, regardless. Thanks for the insightful, polite discussion. Nice to know it still exists on the internet. :)
@@hbullock As you said, sadly most of them will end up in hands of collectors and speculators so there will be hardly any with proper mileage. Also thank you for lovely polite discussion, it is indeed rare thing on internet these days. Have a wonderful day :)
14:21 why I'm not surprised!? ;) You can always give Porsche's Sonderwunsch a call to get the seats. & The steering wheel marker done. ;) Excellent work like always, M.
Let's put a pin in this discussion . . . have some more episodes upcoming on my car that may - or may not - address this point:) That said, for those of you in California, my car will be @ Luftgekühlt's Air|Water event @ OC Fairgrounds in Costa Mesa on April 27.. Come by and say hello . . . air-water.com/
@@MotoManTV it's an old man spec, but he loves it and I'm happy for him.... should have got a leather interior and a moonroof though... at least it's not black inside.
wow nice house man ...how much you get on month ? Magna wheels are exotic and its a must if you want something special ! 1st car i know with magna wheels are Alfa romeo 33 1967...magna is light and special!
Both of these are weekend cars. For a daily or road trip, I'll take a 7 speed C4S specced to the moon with NO sport suspension (PASM is standard on 992), PDCC, Rear Steer, a moonroof, and PCCB, and an extended exclusive manufaktur interior with night vision, 360 cameras, Burmester and all. Great success and congrats on your beautiful car.
Do porsche offer option of different suspension on base and S Carrera??? Didn’t know that. It is sad porsche don’t offer burmester, acc and other great stuff on GT3, not only you can’t get 360 cameras, you can’t even get freaking parking sensor in front lol
@@billnorblat4047 Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Is there really such a difference in ride quality? I guess it’s not that bad like “Sport Suspension” is half way to GT3 harshness right? I mean there is no way I will be specing brand new 911 in next 5-10 years and taking the full depreriation anyway, the best I could do now and still be financially reasonable is used 991.2, but still thank you very much at least I know what to look for in used car in the future if prices of used 992 go down. It would probably be my one car so daily part is pretty important.
@@anmu9038 I would suspect it will be quite hard to find a PDCC+Rear Steer car. It is over $5k option. But plenty will likely have the Sports PASM. I would avoid this configuration unless you're going to track the car regularly. I would personally take a car with standard suspension over Sports PASM for a daily, but it ultimately comes down to preference; you'll have to drive both when you're shopping. The cars that do not have the Sports Suspension will also have 10mm more ride height (suspension travel), making the nose-lift (that most people don't spec cuz it's $3k) less necessary.
@@billnorblat4047 Thank you good sir! I will screenshot this and when I will be ready to pull the trigger on my purchase, I will take this into consideration for sure when test driving, but even though I'm "just" in my late 20s I was always driving comfy sedans so I think I will enjoy "your setup" more, especially when I have no plans to take the car on track or maybe max once a year. I will be honest the cars I consider the most now are some sort of manual 991.1 CS/C4S or manual 718 GTS 4.0 with as much daily spec as possible, because I would really want to experience N/A engines with manual as long as they are still around and I feel like they are not here to stay for much longer. I didn't have much chance to experience N/A since I was still just a poor student when N/A engines were everywhere. Anyway choosing Porsche with all these million option combinations is by itself freaking science. I appreciate your time and advice very much, it will be really useful when the moment comes. Wish you all the best and enjoy whatever lovely car you own atm.
They just to need to make the 992.2 available with a “road pack” where they add rear seats, rear steer delete and softer suspension. Basically 70% of the s/t for a fraction of the price. The gt3 in 992 is too stiff for the road especially on European roads.
This RS color, hood, rear grille, door handles, shifter/transmission, cognac interior (except seats) maybe wheels (though not a big centerlock fan) - on a "mere mortal" Base, S or GTS w/ 18 ways, s-roof, etc. Thank you :)
Now I think that you made a great buy with the GT3 touring. As a long time viewer of the channel I thought you were going to go for a Targa GTS but I was wrong. I was looking at the S/T and thought it is going to be bare bones stock, lightweight model like a T but oh was I wrong. When I saw the price I stopped looking. At least after this episode I know where the price difference comes from.
Thank you for the comparison review. I have two GT3s with wings and PDK. They are sensational cars but feel a bit track focused but still are amazing on the road. I have a Gentian Blue S/T with the Heritage package coming in April, production is already complete, and will be one of my crown jewels. A very special thing about the S/T is the use of the 518 HP GT3 RS engine. That is no small detail to overlook. The variations of Porsche 911s are almost uncountable and your review pointed out the fact that two almost "identical" looking cars are vastly different if you know the specs. Love your channel.
I think we have discussed this topic before in the comments but my thought process here has not changed: One of the best values in the 992 world is the T. Only catch, it is a complete waste to load one up with options. The move is to go with a good standard color (meaning $0.00 extra dollars) like Guards Red and a contrasting color OTHER THAN BLACK on the inside. Maybe an option or two but that is it. The minute you start adding too many options, the price/value equation is lost to a well sorted S.
@@MotoManTV I disagree a bit having owned 2 decently optioned T's. The T is a daily so you do want some of the niceties - standard stereo is a joke so Bose is a must, leather interior is much nicer than the plastic dash, rear axle steering is a performance boost arguably not needed, 360 camera is nice to have as a daily for parking, etc. I did keep the 4-ways on my new one (had buckets previously), but that's a toss up to - the idea is the lightweight/reduced sound deadening and manual - everything else is gravy. Unfortunately black is the only interior you can get on a T.
The bacon strip brake light on the S/T looks terrible. 🥓 Everyone I know prefers the GT3’s horizontal light on the decklid. Let’s hope the 992.2 drops that design. It’s an eyesore. I do like the true door handles over the GT3. Could care less about drag. On the door pulls. You can swap the door handles out in 30 minutes to RS pull loops. Really easy mod. $600+ for the pull loops on Suncoast. You can get red, silver, or black.
As a three time gt3 owner I’m done with Porsche. I’m tired of the special cars I can afford until the markups are added the quickly rising prices for 500 hp cars. I’m done. Used to be able to walk into a dealership and get a gt3 easily. Now the 718 RS Boxster is $225,000. Just stupid. I’m going to buy a loaded Z06 with carbon brakes and drive it till the tires fall off
@@howarda4242 I do also and my opinion is different. The new Z06 has better interior materials sounds better earlier in the power band and has 200 more horsepower. Considering the 992 GT3 is $100,000 more expensive that makes the Z06/Z07 just a much better value period. If you like to waste money then maybe the GT3 is a better choice . They have the same brakes and the Z06 uses the same suspension that Ferrari uses. So again the Z06 is a much better value
Well if its “not made for track days” it really can’t be an “RS” in my eyes. Great content though, I’d stick to your touring for half the price and still buy a 991.1 or 991.2 RS for track use.
@@TheGreekCarGeek hey I track an MX-5 Mazdaspeed Miata, its a full on track car now $26k into her. I sure respect the guys that take $200k + street cars on the track and push them, with the expensive consumables to match. I know several friends who do.
I love your vlogs as they make me feel more normal again because they remind me that there are other saddo’s that anguish over their Porsche Specs as well 😂. Your detailed explanations are exquisite and sooo Porscheofile. Just taken delivery of a Spyder RS and I love the red stitched leather fuse box cover and the Porsche 75 Anniversary floor mats 😳 .. it’s all in the details. Keep doing it 👍
As difficult as it is to get a gt3 touring, it’s way harder to get the st. A trade would be laughed at. With that said, the gt3 touring is more than you ever need for the street. A way more livable and subtle car than the gt3 and especially the rs
The REAL difference is one is made to lower lap times and one is made to increase engagement and, for lack of a better phrase, driver's JOY. You bought the wrong one if you are a driver and the right one if you are a racer. Which one are you, my friend? Actually, it doesn't really matter. Because the ST is essentially un-obtainium, so take yoose take what you can get. Does any TH-cam reviewer own a ST yet? Does anyone REALLY own a ST yet? Best in-depth plunge on these two cars that I've seen. Thx, Motoman! And the ST floor mats are to die for. P.S. Getting rid of RWS is definitely for purity, not for weight. Nothing "pure" about RWS in any iteration. P.P.S. Nothing wrong with crest envy either! lol. A sticker? Seriously. Saved a couple of grams there.
Cool video, thanks. It seems like such a silly, tiny thing but the presence of decent door handles on the ST has me annoyed that they’re not on all current 911s. Those fussy pop-out handles are too clever by half. I’ll wager that no Porsche customer - not ever - after driving a late model 911 on road, declared he/she noticed the performance difference in reduced coefficient of drag. My wish list is that Porsche reverses this, having flush handles on those track spec models that’ll be driven 9/10ths and higher in circumstances where fractions of seconds really matter.
The upsale prices and dealer markups on these aged like fine milk 😂. With prices falling paying 100 over was a really bad deal, when owners are looking at .2 cars with sin in their eyes!
My dealer offered me a 911 ST and i had them for a testdrive. I did not like the agressive flyweehl, may be i am with 53 to old for that and liked it at 20, but at 20 i did not had the money for a new 911. May be this is for older "boys". (I also take my GT3 2-3 times a year to the Nürburgring and my laptime is not the worst)
The ST is a masterpiece but i still preffer the GT3T . it´s a cleaner look and there´s more than enough performance. It may just be me but the idea of getting a special-edition of a special-edition of already what is a special car starts to feel a bit like a money scam. I know they make good business with it and i´m happy for them but seeing a base carrera in my market for around 100k and this one, wich still is the same base car for over 300k..... maybe just be my ranting mind but i think it could back fire eventually. Specially since the idea of owning a +200k car that doesn´t have the "special 20k package" may hurt it´s future value. i don´t know, call me crazy i guess. Love all the GT line from Porsche, best cars to own in so many ways.....period. Love the take on the details between both cars MM, good job.
Used Carrera S is good enough still I think. I mean those with NA engines. Enough power, not too hard suspension. Of course new is is new if too much money available.
ST is a bit chintzy and fussy. Regular Touring or better yet a 991.2 Touring, think the latter is the modern sweet spot. The 992 a bit too big and crossover-y. 991.2 isn't exactly tiny, but perhaps just the right side of the line for perceived bulk. Or if money no object maybe a 991.1 R. Similar concept to the S/T but more minimalist / less overdone.
This was a great video for us Porsche nerds who want the differences between these two unbelievable cars. The next car you spec, you can ask Porsche’s Sonderwunch team to spec for you!
I did on this one and was shot down on my two biggest requests: 1.) Removing the 'P O R S C H E' letters on the taillight and replacing the stock engine cover that has the 'GT3 Touring script' with one that has just the CHMSL and the mesh. Answer to both: 'This is not possible'.
The st has a close ratio gearbox. Something people have been screaming about for years and stupid porsche never listened. Finally. For gods sake. Was it that hard
People who can afford the 911 ST don't even question whether paying $100,000 more than for a GT3 is worth it. The argument that it's not worth it is merely an excuse and jealousy from those who can't afford the 911 ST and own a GT3 instead. It stinks.
What a bizarre exterior spec they produced for this press st. That paint and those wheels and the chrome trim and… when put next to your car it becomes even more obvious. They should have hired you to spec their car.
I'll be keeping my 2018 GT2 RS for the foreseeable future...but I do wish it had a 6 speed. When I retire next year, I may do a project myself to convert the big GT2 to a 6 speed manual (I'm a Principal Aerospace/Computer Engineer on the F35 program so I'm pretty confident I could handle a 911 transmission swap with associated Transmission Control Unit(s) and Engine Control Unit(s) mods).
The ST is an end of line parts bin special and is part of the newer Porsche marketing strategy which is designed to split the market into ever smaller segments. I have owned many Porsche sports cars and they have lost the plot, ever bigger, heavier and less engaging machines. I don't know why people buy the RS or GT3 anymore, most can't drive them to their potential and very few track them hard. Look at the number on the side of the S/T, why? Its pathetic.
@@jeffreykilpatrick3592 no sunroof and no surround view (very sadly given how painful it would be to curb those magnesium wheels!), but not sure about Auto Unlock.
The number and “Porsche” on the exterior makes for a high probability that a dbag owns/drives the car. The S/T has some real advancements (vs the gt3 touring), but it’s difficult to justify the upcharge (unless you’re worth north of $50m and it’s academic). I do get a laugh at portly cars doing the lightweight things….for all their efforts, it’s still on the wrong side of 3,000 lbs. it’s just too big. And do I want one? Sure. But I would do the touring and pocket the difference.
Every time I talk to the Porsche dealers in my area I’m told they can only put my name on a list for those that can purchase the GT or Turbo allocations. Told them all I’ll buy any of these types, been ten years and nothing after stopping in annually. The only way is to purchase existing cars. One must have the stars align and be in good standing with the Porsche God to get an allocation for a GT or Heritage type high end car.
Only the rich can afford these cars know . In order to buy a car like that you need to make crazy money from your job Or have multiple business. That are making you crazy money
The basis behind all the Dave R. Dog and pony show is just that if someone can't responsibly handle debt, then they shouldn't utilize it at all and they need to follow a rigid organized checklist to stay on track. Pretty simple concept, people probably heard it from friends and family plenty before they decided to pay someone to tell them same thing. Avoiding debt and building wealth have nothing to do with a high price tag purchase. It's fully possible to purchase a 911 outright. And given Motoman is living out in California and is stewarding several hangers worth of airplanes, I'm guessing he's doing a ok. Probably got in on the RE/PM game just like Dave R. Then to top it all off Porsche's are holding their values better than ever before. And finally, and this is seemingly lost on car enthusiasts who complain about "losing money on a car", you got to drive it. Buy a high quality burger, no one's complaining about losing a few bucks on the back end of the deal. I'd be more upset buying a CRV new and losing $3k over the first year, then buy a 911 and lose 10k over the first year. Because driving that CRV wouldn't be worth it if it appreciated in value. If the driving experience isn't worth depreciation then it's not the right car, or maybe one isn't an auto enthusiast, but if it is then it is. His talk with Mark at SG touched on that. The rest of D.R's schtick is just padding and community building because if he only had 2 rules he wouldn't sound like an expert. In reality no one goes through life only buying appreciating assets unless you've got the excessive capital to do so. And it's really interesting how much capital is suddenly available from certain groups, for someone taking their *mission* to be public facing and congregating a community to hear their sermon. In reality most people can handle a level of flexibility with their finances without wasting money or getting into trouble with it.
Just buy a stock Carrara the additional money for the higher models is ridiculous. Total rip Cars shouldn’t be an investment. My car goes 1 SECOND faster to 60. So what!
Maintaining all those leathers all over the car takes a lot of time and effort. If you don't do it, they dry and break. Simplify your life by going simple and efficient interior.
The biggest difference is the price tag
The vmax difference is mainly due to the shortened gear ratios on the S/T (final drive is 8% shorter) and not the drag coefficient
🇬🇷🏛️ from another Greek Porsche geek
is 8% a “game changer” ?
@@brianhimmelman420 is someone using those words? I’m not able to comment until I drive it, but accounts from people who have driven the car seem to corroborate that all manual Porsches (unfortunately) have very tall gearing. So is this “game changing”? No idea. Is it a welcome change? Absolutely. Is 8% enough? I’m sure most would sacrifice even more top end speed for even shorter gearing; as is, you can only get two shifts in (to 3rd gear) before you’re breaking speed limits nearly everywhere, and who outside of those with access to the autobahn would ever get anywhere close to the S/T’s 186mph top speed?
Have commented this before, I cannot get over how beautiful your GT3 Touring spec is. That blue with those wheels is simply mesmerizing.
As far as the comparison between the two goes, the ST reads as diminishing returns to me. Flywheel and its impact on the driving experience aside, the other weight reductions don't seem worth it to me. You're buying a giant hunk of metal -- no need for that level of obsession. Just be happy you're even able to buy any 911.
I love how people get so wrapped up into spec, then flip it when it arrives, lol. Sadly most owners arent spec Gods
And even if they were spec Gods, Porsche knows the "God" spec and only dispenses it accordingly. The best stuff is held for limiteds.
I love how you give us the nitty gritty difference between the two cars....well done!
My pleasure!
We feel your pain slumming it in that 911 GT3 Touring with those non-leather lined air vents. 💔 🤗
The struggle is real:)
That shore blue looks sooo good and white wheels 😮
Why aren't more people watching this channel? This channel always delivers the goods and the entertainment.
George, straight up, you have a fantastic GT3, with a lot of love and attention put into it. Hearing all your reviews of the ST, I'm convinced that you're trying to convince yourself the little extra in the look and driving feel is more than it's really worth. These vehicles are catastrophically expensive, and especially after hearing your discussion with Mark, I feel car prices have gotten out of hand. Rather, be thankful you're in a financial position to accept Porsche's pricing to own one in the first place, without financing - an impossibility for almost everybody. Don't be like those people (especially in California) where the more they have the more they want. You're cool just the way you are with the car you have!
The interior door handle loops are pretty bad. You need two hands to open the door. One to pull the loop and another to push the door open. May look cool, but for daily use, it is very annoying.
After speccing many of my own new porsche's, I've learned to go all out. You won't regret any aesthetic option.
Agreed, I pretty much did that in my GTS 4.0 and I regret not getting the leather seatbacks. Not the end of the world on a Cayman.
I see MM and Porsche, I click! As usual, MM proves that he is the genuine TH-cam authority on all things Porsche including all its nuances! Love both cars, but the S/T is the grail 911!
I am decades away from being able to afford a Porsche but I’m here because I love this channel.
MotoMan, your knowledge of 911 options is encyclopedic. Regardless of the complicated and costly interior selections you made on your blue car I hope you still get out there and enjoy the drive.
Great comparison Motoman! I will keep my fingers crossed for you to get an ST, especially at sticker. 🙂 I would like to add to minor points: 1. the lower top speed is probably more related to the 8% shorter gearing of the ST rather than the higher Cd, 2. the Porsche depicted in the Volvo ad seems to be a 944.
He has a much better chance of getting struck by lightning while in his bath tub than getting an ST for MSRP. I actually know of one local Porsche dealer that sold a customer an ST at MSRP but it required him giving them his 992 GT3 Touring….. yes, he GAVE them his $250k car in order to get an ST 🤦🏻♂️
@@jameswillard1STs go 250 over MSRP if you can get one.
@@tamasszabo8824 yes that’s my point, he has pretty much no chance of getting a Porsche dealer to sell him one at MSRP
@@jameswillard1I was just trying to be nice and positive 🙂
But seriously, a car with “Porsche” and a big racing number patch on the door is screaming to live at the track, regardless of how “daily-able” it is. Great video.
I honestly think your car is better, I get that S/T is rarer and all the stuff, but fact that it’s so rare would imo make you drive the car less, because you would feel “like you have to” preserve it since there are only 1963 of these compare to this GT3 Touring is much more “production car” and you can enjoy it all you want and put more miles on it.
If you’re comfortable enough to blithely put miles on a gt3t, you’re probably fine doing so in an s/t. A gt3t is hardly an inexpensive every man’s car.
@@hbullockI see massive difference in 200k vs 300k car, not to mention in case something would happen with gt3t and car would become totaled and you get the money from insurance you can just go out in the market with used or even new cars and buy another touring or just normal GT3 since it’s basically same car woth both options of manual and pdk no problem, there are plenty of them in the market, wanna see you do the same with S/T.
It’s also relative to other owners there are plenty of GT3s in general and a lot of people will be babying them, but also a lot of them will be putting a lot of miles on them without hesitation, backroad miles, track miles etc. While with S/T sooo much more people will be babying the car since it’s so rare and limited and they can’t just get another one, so every mile you put on S/T will lose you MUCH more money compare to regular GT3. You can check the same thing with 991.2 GT3 vs 911R. There are plenty of GT3 selling with 100k kms while there is basically zero 911R with that mileage.
Imagine being that one dude who drives shit out of your 911R or S/T and you clock 100k on it and you decide to sell it in future… you will have to go drastically down with the price, since you will be most likely the only one who is selling such high mileage limited car, not to mention we are speaking about 300k car which definitely isn’t for general dudes anymore these people who get to buy them are definitely in different league to your average GT3 owner and those people if they go to the market for S/T they don’t care about money anymore and they want pristine car no matter the price, which will nuke the price of your 100k km car even more.
So no gt3 isn’t every man’s car, but S/T is in the league of its own and would cost you significantly more to properly enjoy. It’s like comparing base 911 to GT3. You will get away with putting miles on some 992 C or CS or even Turbo much more than GT3 because even more people put miles on them and there are much more base 911s, it’s all relative to number of cars produces and how many miles other owners are putting on them.
@@anmu9038 That’s kind of my point. S/T price (especially with adm or “adm”) added in is very high. If you can afford an S/T, you can “afford” to put miles on it. I’m not saying people will. Most people with big money think of everything in terms of money, so they will tend to want to preserve value, but that’s not the same thing as “needing” to preserve value, if you see what I mean. It’s more a choice for them than a real financial imperative. I guess the reality is most will end up in the hands of collectors and speculators, not drivers, and that will determine their fate, regardless.
Thanks for the insightful, polite discussion. Nice to know it still exists on the internet. :)
@@hbullock As you said, sadly most of them will end up in hands of collectors and speculators so there will be hardly any with proper mileage. Also thank you for lovely polite discussion, it is indeed rare thing on internet these days. Have a wonderful day :)
14:21 why I'm not surprised!? ;)
You can always give Porsche's Sonderwunsch a call to get the seats. & The steering wheel marker done. ;)
Excellent work like always, M.
Let's put a pin in this discussion . . . have some more episodes upcoming on my car that may - or may not - address this point:) That said, for those of you in California, my car will be @ Luftgekühlt's Air|Water event @ OC Fairgrounds in Costa Mesa on April 27.. Come by and say hello . . . air-water.com/
@@MotoManTV oooohh exciting!
Looking forward to those episodes & can't wait to see what you got up your sleeve, M.
Can’t wait to see Roman get into his new Porsche. Roman talks about a bad back. Andre and Nathan will have to lift him out.
I am going to see his car in person for the first time next week . . .
@@MotoManTV it's an old man spec, but he loves it and I'm happy for him.... should have got a leather interior and a moonroof though... at least it's not black inside.
Porsche is the best car manufacturer ever!
Beautiful cars, beautiful house. My new 911 arrives June!
Congrats! Post some pics when she arrives.
I will! Guards Red. Should be a beauty! @@MotoManTV
wow nice house man ...how much you get on month ? Magna wheels are exotic and its a must if you want something special ! 1st car i know with magna wheels are Alfa romeo 33 1967...magna is light and special!
The sound of the door thunk! A good trade if they accept. What color? Shore Blue Metallic as spec'd?
The ST is so beautiful. I would love own one. Enjoy.
I’d wait until the next version of the gt3 touring. My guess is that will get some of this stuff - especially the better sorted suspension tuning
Nice Review. I love your attention to the interior details..
If you want it get it but probably over sticker!! Great review and I like your Blue better than Heritage blue but just my choice!
So which one is the ST again. Dark blue or the other blue one?
The blue one
😁 Hey Motoman.. nice Studebaker in the reflection of the garage windows at 00:23.. 😅 also nice choice on your Porsche ❤
I still miss Kumo 😢
I miss him, too . . . instagram.com/p/CRSLOGdF-8T/
OMG The Lead in and your verdict truly an addict of 911
Both of these are weekend cars. For a daily or road trip, I'll take a 7 speed C4S specced to the moon with NO sport suspension (PASM is standard on 992), PDCC, Rear Steer, a moonroof, and PCCB, and an extended exclusive manufaktur interior with night vision, 360 cameras, Burmester and all.
Great success and congrats on your beautiful car.
Do porsche offer option of different suspension on base and S Carrera??? Didn’t know that. It is sad porsche don’t offer burmester, acc and other great stuff on GT3, not only you can’t get 360 cameras, you can’t even get freaking parking sensor in front lol
@@anmu9038 Yes on the S. The spec to go with is PDCC and Rear Steer, but don't check the"Sports Suspension" box.
@@billnorblat4047 Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Is there really such a difference in ride quality? I guess it’s not that bad like “Sport Suspension” is half way to GT3 harshness right?
I mean there is no way I will be specing brand new 911 in next 5-10 years and taking the full depreriation anyway, the best I could do now and still be financially reasonable is used 991.2, but still thank you very much at least I know what to look for in used car in the future if prices of used 992 go down. It would probably be my one car so daily part is pretty important.
@@anmu9038 I would suspect it will be quite hard to find a PDCC+Rear Steer car. It is over $5k option.
But plenty will likely have the Sports PASM. I would avoid this configuration unless you're going to track the car regularly.
I would personally take a car with standard suspension over Sports PASM for a daily, but it ultimately comes down to preference; you'll have to drive both when you're shopping.
The cars that do not have the Sports Suspension will also have 10mm more ride height (suspension travel), making the nose-lift (that most people don't spec cuz it's $3k) less necessary.
@@billnorblat4047 Thank you good sir! I will screenshot this and when I will be ready to pull the trigger on my purchase, I will take this into consideration for sure when test driving, but even though I'm "just" in my late 20s I was always driving comfy sedans so I think I will enjoy "your setup" more, especially when I have no plans to take the car on track or maybe max once a year.
I will be honest the cars I consider the most now are some sort of manual 991.1 CS/C4S or manual 718 GTS 4.0 with as much daily spec as possible, because I would really want to experience N/A engines with manual as long as they are still around and I feel like they are not here to stay for much longer. I didn't have much chance to experience N/A since I was still just a poor student when N/A engines were everywhere.
Anyway choosing Porsche with all these million option combinations is by itself freaking science. I appreciate your time and advice very much, it will be really useful when the moment comes. Wish you all the best and enjoy whatever lovely car you own atm.
They just to need to make the 992.2 available with a “road pack” where they add rear seats, rear steer delete and softer suspension. Basically 70% of the s/t for a fraction of the price.
The gt3 in 992 is too stiff for the road especially on European roads.
Is the gt3 touring suspension too hard for daily driving? I'm torn between it and the turbo s 😮😮😮
You're asking the wrong person . . . I am a guy that has dailied everything from an RX-7 to a Z3 M to my current GT3 Touring . . .
@@MotoManTV I had a z3 m coupe! Is your gt3 touring a rough ride?
This RS color, hood, rear grille, door handles, shifter/transmission, cognac interior (except seats) maybe wheels (though not a big centerlock fan) - on a "mere mortal" Base, S or GTS w/ 18 ways, s-roof, etc. Thank you :)
Speaking of Singer, if I had the money & pull, i'd take a S/T or GT3 to them for some retro work.
Now I think that you made a great buy with the GT3 touring. As a long time viewer of the channel I thought you were going to go for a Targa GTS but I was wrong. I was looking at the S/T and thought it is going to be bare bones stock, lightweight model like a T but oh was I wrong. When I saw the price I stopped looking. At least after this episode I know where the price difference comes from.
Good guess . . . my second favorite 992
The ST has made me a big Porsche guy. The perfect sports car imo
Thank you for the comparison review. I have two GT3s with wings and PDK. They are sensational cars but feel a bit track focused but still are amazing on the road. I have a Gentian Blue S/T with the Heritage package coming in April, production is already complete, and will be one of my crown jewels. A very special thing about the S/T is the use of the 518 HP GT3 RS engine. That is no small detail to overlook. The variations of Porsche 911s are almost uncountable and your review pointed out the fact that two almost "identical" looking cars are vastly different if you know the specs. Love your channel.
Oh man. Nice collection. May I ask what business you own and run?
No wonder I couldn't get one. Guess I'll have to stick to my Mazda.
Your spec is impeccable. ❤ WOW ❤
Another dilemma, Carrera T or a GT3 (minus another $100k). I am weighing this now with my T.
GT car is usually always the answer. Motorsport derived
@@MW-uy3np Waiting on an allocation...
I think we have discussed this topic before in the comments but my thought process here has not changed: One of the best values in the 992 world is the T. Only catch, it is a complete waste to load one up with options. The move is to go with a good standard color (meaning $0.00 extra dollars) like Guards Red and a contrasting color OTHER THAN BLACK on the inside. Maybe an option or two but that is it. The minute you start adding too many options, the price/value equation is lost to a well sorted S.
@@MotoManTV I disagree a bit having owned 2 decently optioned T's. The T is a daily so you do want some of the niceties - standard stereo is a joke so Bose is a must, leather interior is much nicer than the plastic dash, rear axle steering is a performance boost arguably not needed, 360 camera is nice to have as a daily for parking, etc. I did keep the 4-ways on my new one (had buckets previously), but that's a toss up to - the idea is the lightweight/reduced sound deadening and manual - everything else is gravy. Unfortunately black is the only interior you can get on a T.
why stop there at a T … get a base Cayman lol #racetothebottom
The best OCD demonstration, love it 😊
:)
How did this allocation work out? Waited like other customers, or used journalism to influence the company? Feels like Rolex AD....
The bacon strip brake light on the S/T looks terrible. 🥓
Everyone I know prefers the GT3’s horizontal light on the decklid.
Let’s hope the 992.2 drops that design. It’s an eyesore.
I do like the true door handles over the GT3. Could care less about drag.
On the door pulls. You can swap the door handles out in 30 minutes to RS pull loops. Really easy mod.
$600+ for the pull loops on Suncoast. You can get red, silver, or black.
As a three time gt3 owner I’m done with Porsche. I’m tired of the special cars I can afford until the markups are added the quickly rising prices for 500 hp cars. I’m done. Used to be able to walk into a dealership and get a gt3 easily. Now the 718 RS Boxster is $225,000. Just stupid. I’m going to buy a loaded Z06 with carbon brakes and drive it till the tires fall off
I have both . The Z06 is awesome but it’s NOT a GT3!
@@howarda4242 I do also and my opinion is different. The new Z06 has better interior materials sounds better earlier in the power band and has 200 more horsepower. Considering the 992 GT3 is $100,000 more expensive that makes the Z06/Z07 just a much better value period. If you like to waste money then maybe the GT3 is a better choice . They have the same brakes and the Z06 uses the same suspension that Ferrari uses. So again the Z06 is a much better value
#4... Definitely #4.
I torture myself with these awesome videos.
LoL 😂
These cars are not for typical sub-100k earning guy.
Wow, Captain obvious in tha house ! 👨✈️
*sub $500k
Well if its “not made for track days” it really can’t be an “RS” in my eyes. Great content though, I’d stick to your touring for half the price and still buy a 991.1 or 991.2 RS for track use.
I get the sentiment, but realistically an RS is minimum $175K (991.1) or $220K (991.2)
@@TheGreekCarGeek hey I track an MX-5 Mazdaspeed Miata, its a full on track car now $26k into her. I sure respect the guys that take $200k + street cars on the track and push them, with the expensive consumables to match. I know several friends who do.
I love your vlogs as they make me feel more normal again because they remind me that there are other saddo’s that anguish over their Porsche Specs as well 😂. Your detailed explanations are exquisite and sooo Porscheofile. Just taken delivery of a Spyder RS and I love the red stitched leather fuse box cover and the Porsche 75 Anniversary floor mats 😳 .. it’s all in the details. Keep doing it 👍
Excellent comparison, thanks!
Love them both!
As difficult as it is to get a gt3 touring, it’s way harder to get the st. A trade would be laughed at. With that said, the gt3 touring is more than you ever need for the street. A way more livable and subtle car than the gt3 and especially the rs
The REAL difference is one is made to lower lap times and one is made to increase engagement and, for lack of a better phrase, driver's JOY. You bought the wrong one if you are a driver and the right one if you are a racer. Which one are you, my friend? Actually, it doesn't really matter. Because the ST is essentially un-obtainium, so take yoose take what you can get. Does any TH-cam reviewer own a ST yet? Does anyone REALLY own a ST yet?
Best in-depth plunge on these two cars that I've seen. Thx, Motoman! And the ST floor mats are to die for.
P.S. Getting rid of RWS is definitely for purity, not for weight. Nothing "pure" about RWS in any iteration.
P.P.S. Nothing wrong with crest envy either! lol. A sticker? Seriously. Saved a couple of grams there.
Cool video, thanks. It seems like such a silly, tiny thing but the presence of decent door handles on the ST has me annoyed that they’re not on all current 911s. Those fussy pop-out handles are too clever by half. I’ll wager that no Porsche customer - not ever - after driving a late model 911 on road, declared he/she noticed the performance difference in reduced coefficient of drag. My wish list is that Porsche reverses this, having flush handles on those track spec models that’ll be driven 9/10ths and higher in circumstances where fractions of seconds really matter.
Excellent video……… I’ll have to stick with my racing yellow 991.1. You’re living the dream. ❤️👍
The upsale prices and dealer markups on these aged like fine milk 😂. With prices falling paying 100 over was a really bad deal, when owners are looking at .2 cars with sin in their eyes!
My dealer offered me a 911 ST and i had them for a testdrive. I did not like the agressive flyweehl, may be i am with 53 to old for that and liked it at 20, but at 20 i did not had the money for a new 911. May be this is for older "boys".
(I also take my GT3 2-3 times a year to the Nürburgring and my laptime is not the worst)
The ST is a masterpiece but i still preffer the GT3T . it´s a cleaner look and there´s more than enough performance. It may just be me but the idea of getting a special-edition of a special-edition of already what is a special car starts to feel a bit like a money scam. I know they make good business with it and i´m happy for them but seeing a base carrera in my market for around 100k and this one, wich still is the same base car for over 300k..... maybe just be my ranting mind but i think it could back fire eventually. Specially since the idea of owning a +200k car that doesn´t have the "special 20k package" may hurt it´s future value. i don´t know, call me crazy i guess. Love all the GT line from Porsche, best cars to own in so many ways.....period. Love the take on the details between both cars MM, good job.
Thank you, Javi!
I agree with the wish list!!!
Used Carrera S is good enough still I think. I mean those with NA engines. Enough power, not too hard suspension. Of course new is is new if too much money available.
ST is a bit chintzy and fussy. Regular Touring or better yet a 991.2 Touring, think the latter is the modern sweet spot. The 992 a bit too big and crossover-y. 991.2 isn't exactly tiny, but perhaps just the right side of the line for perceived bulk. Or if money no object maybe a 991.1 R. Similar concept to the S/T but more minimalist / less overdone.
Ok but....is the S/T worth $100k more than the GT3?....I didn't get that answer**
This was a great video for us Porsche nerds who want the differences between these two unbelievable cars. The next car you spec, you can ask Porsche’s Sonderwunch team to spec for you!
I did on this one and was shot down on my two biggest requests:
1.) Removing the 'P O R S C H E' letters on the taillight and replacing the stock engine cover that has the 'GT3 Touring script' with one that has just the CHMSL and the mesh.
Answer to both: 'This is not possible'.
I’d take the 2025 T and invest the remaining $200k, like a true sensible Porsche owner.
Canyon roads, mountain roads….I live in the prairies
I would do the rearl wood and make it classy
I guess since the 911R was the 991.1 GT3RS Touring, makes this the 992R? :)
Logical jump . . .
The st has a close ratio gearbox. Something people have been screaming about for years and stupid porsche never listened. Finally. For gods sake. Was it that hard
People who can afford the 911 ST don't even question whether paying $100,000 more than for a GT3 is worth it. The argument that it's not worth it is merely an excuse and jealousy from those who can't afford the 911 ST and own a GT3 instead.
It stinks.
I feel like this is the type of guy Doug Demuro hates (stitching, leather, etc. porsche owners)
Yeah, but where's the infotainment screen, and how's the radio? Does it kick?😂
My 1997 base carrera 2 3.4 NA no nannies 1200-something kg car has a 0.30 (three point zero) cd. .. just saying 🙂
Perhaps having both is the answer…no??
I would be ok with that solution!!
Το έκανες γύφτικο. Red seat belts/stitching with tan?
What a bizarre exterior spec they produced for this press st. That paint and those wheels and the chrome trim and… when put next to your car it becomes even more obvious. They should have hired you to spec their car.
The difference in top speed is because of the shorter final drive ratio.
Good luck getting an allocation….. winning the lottery has about the same odds.
Porsche forever.
I'll be keeping my 2018 GT2 RS for the foreseeable future...but I do wish it had a 6 speed. When I retire next year, I may do a project myself to convert the big GT2 to a 6 speed manual (I'm a Principal Aerospace/Computer Engineer on the F35 program so I'm pretty confident I could handle a 911 transmission swap with associated Transmission Control Unit(s) and Engine Control Unit(s) mods).
Keep us updated Mr F35
The ST is an end of line parts bin special and is part of the newer Porsche marketing strategy which is designed to split the market into ever smaller segments. I have owned many Porsche sports cars and they have lost the plot, ever bigger, heavier and less engaging machines. I don't know why people buy the RS or GT3 anymore, most can't drive them to their potential and very few track them hard. Look at the number on the side of the S/T, why? Its pathetic.
These ICE Porsches will probably cause some artificial limits on the upcoming electric 918.
The Touring leather design is reminiscent of the basketweave design in the longhood cars.
the more pedantic, the better! keep it going
You can call it what ever you want if it makes you feel better 😭
Motoman, for your next Porsche, get the sunroof.👍🏾
No sunroof option on the GT3 - no Auto Unlock - no surround view - and so on. He doesn’t say if the ST brings these back
@@jeffreykilpatrick3592 no sunroof and no surround view (very sadly given how painful it would be to curb those magnesium wheels!), but not sure about Auto Unlock.
Wish I could . . . That along with the Burmester was not an option.
The number and “Porsche” on the exterior makes for a high probability that a dbag owns/drives the car. The S/T has some real advancements (vs the gt3 touring), but it’s difficult to justify the upcharge (unless you’re worth north of $50m and it’s academic). I do get a laugh at portly cars doing the lightweight things….for all their efforts, it’s still on the wrong side of 3,000 lbs. it’s just too big. And do I want one? Sure. But I would do the touring and pocket the difference.
Every time I talk to the Porsche dealers in my area I’m told they can only put my name on a list for those that can purchase the GT or Turbo allocations.
Told them all I’ll buy any of these types, been ten years and nothing after stopping in annually.
The only way is to purchase existing cars. One must have the stars align and be in good standing with the Porsche God to get an allocation for a GT or Heritage type high end car.
nice car
Porsche need to start go more carbon like ferrari
Sticker. Hahahahaha. Can we first interest you in 2 or 3 Taycan Turbo S we have in our warehouse?
I would take your car over the ST
Only the rich can afford these cars know . In order to buy a car like that you need to make crazy money from your job Or have multiple business. That are making you crazy money
Dude massacred his touring spec.
lightweight flywheel is a game changer
sorry iam only getting eve in the future perhaps a Macan or Taycan
Desirable. Hmm, not living the Dave Ramsey mantra. Perhaps no more preaching Dave Ramsey.
How so? I'd be shocked if he doesn't own that car.
The basis behind all the Dave R. Dog and pony show is just that if someone can't responsibly handle debt, then they shouldn't utilize it at all and they need to follow a rigid organized checklist to stay on track. Pretty simple concept, people probably heard it from friends and family plenty before they decided to pay someone to tell them same thing.
Avoiding debt and building wealth have nothing to do with a high price tag purchase. It's fully possible to purchase a 911 outright. And given Motoman is living out in California and is stewarding several hangers worth of airplanes, I'm guessing he's doing a ok. Probably got in on the RE/PM game just like Dave R. Then to top it all off Porsche's are holding their values better than ever before.
And finally, and this is seemingly lost on car enthusiasts who complain about "losing money on a car", you got to drive it. Buy a high quality burger, no one's complaining about losing a few bucks on the back end of the deal. I'd be more upset buying a CRV new and losing $3k over the first year, then buy a 911 and lose 10k over the first year. Because driving that CRV wouldn't be worth it if it appreciated in value. If the driving experience isn't worth depreciation then it's not the right car, or maybe one isn't an auto enthusiast, but if it is then it is. His talk with Mark at SG touched on that.
The rest of D.R's schtick is just padding and community building because if he only had 2 rules he wouldn't sound like an expert. In reality no one goes through life only buying appreciating assets unless you've got the excessive capital to do so. And it's really interesting how much capital is suddenly available from certain groups, for someone taking their *mission* to be public facing and congregating a community to hear their sermon. In reality most people can handle a level of flexibility with their finances without wasting money or getting into trouble with it.
I personally didn’t like the heritage pack, ordered mine with standard black interior
Just buy a stock Carrara the additional money for the higher models is ridiculous.
Total rip
Cars shouldn’t be an investment.
My car goes 1 SECOND faster to 60. So what!
Need to work on your heel toe
Two works of art ❤️❤️❤️ I love both. 🫶🏼🙏🏼👍🏼💯
Your car is my dream car, the perfect car. I do not know how I would ever be able to afford one.
Maybe you could leave it to me in your will?
Maintaining all those leathers all over the car takes a lot of time and effort. If you don't do it, they dry and break. Simplify your life by going simple and efficient interior.
100k😂