Not even close. She never had eyes on United at anytime on ground. The animation shown, attempts to recreate the setting, but unfortunately 25 years ago, computers and animating just wasn’t yet quite what it has come to be now. So it gives us a dark blurry old animation looking video of a plane following accurately the facts of incident, but it stays in middle frame perfectly at all times. Giving us not a second of confusion to where it could be or if another plane was 100m above it. (FedEx isn’t even included) So TLDR Long story short, this is very very inaccurate if you’re calling it 99% spot on as ATC saw it that night in person.
Mistakes happen, and always will. What's important is how we RESPOND to mistakes. UA1448 made two understandable ones: 1) getting lost in low visibility, and 2) reporting a wrong runway number (4:09). But, they 1) took great pains to report their confusion, and 2) corrected the wrong runway number almost immediately (4:32). Contrast that with the controller who cleared 2998 into the air TWICE despite 1448 reporting their locational uncertainty. It's almost as if the controller figured that if 1448 got a simple runway number wrong, then they couldn't be right about anything else (ie. the nearby takeoff of 1662). There's a military maxim about always listening to the commander in the field, because he has a better picture of the situation on the ground than does than the brass back at HQ. So I think a pilot saying he is hearing takeoff noises is one who should be heeded. After all, the controller admits "I need to know what runway you're on, I can't see anything from the tower" (4:02). Yet despite 1) this lack of visual confirmation (and apparent lack of ground radar), and 2) 1448 reporting they are on an "active runway" (4:45), the controller contradicts 1448 based on faulty understanding of 1448's runway number (4:48) and continues business-as-usual by once again clearing 2998 for takeoff (5:32). Note the unprofessional language: "United doesn't know where the hell he is" (5:45). And the patronizing remark to 2998: "...he's not anywhere near the runway, but you can hold short" (6:00). As if to say, 'go ahead you silly pilot, be stupidly overcautious if you must' showing that the controller still doesn't believe 1448 is on an active runway. Of course that last remark was dead wrong, and would have been catastrophically wrong had 2998's crew not been so vigilant (they received post-incident praise from the NTSB).
Absolutely. The pilots on United 1448 made the right call. Their refusal to follow the repreated instructions from ground control prevented what would have been a horrible accident. It is hard to place blame considering such low visibility parameters as existed that night..
United pilots did a good job when they got lost. Being bullied by the controller they stayed assertive and reiterated that they are on an active runway
The picture is depicting the fog that was occurring that night. As for the recordings being cut short, I'm not sure what you're referring to - except that's the way radios work.
The towers mistake was to have someone with a short fuse be in charge. If the airport can't bother to post signs that are correct that is NOT the visiting pilots problem. That is the airports problem. The lack of professionalism displayed by the Tower in charge person only shows just how bad over her head they were. The second mistake tower made and quite frankly scares the living daylights out of me, is tower had a plane lost in the fog on an active runway. About the only thing tower was doing well is trying to deflect blame from themselves for what reason I couldn't even begin to know. This airport tower personnel in charge put lives at risk and made decisions that could have killed someone.
@AgentMulder3667 Incorrect. UA1448 took a wrong turn down bravo, then provided incorrect positioning to the tower. Both were clueless, listen to how they reference 23R.
In response to the debate over TF Green's parallel runways: The airport did have parallels at the time of the accident. 23L and 23R. Later on 23L was closed and became taxiway victor. So you're all right. Or wrong.
I understand the concept of parallel runways, but in that case there would have to be two of them, in order to be parallel, correct? Based on the airport diagram for T.F. Green airport I just downloaded, there's only one runway 23/5, and one 16/34. What she fails to understand is when he told them they were on 16, that they were on 16, staring at Kilo, which was (then) on the east side of 23/5. What a mess! Bravo to the US Air Pilots. Wonder if one of them was Sully?
That's because there WERE parallel runways at the time. But because of this incident, they turned one of them (23R/5L) into taxiway V. And now, runway 23L/5R is just runway 23/5.
@AgentMulder3667 Incorrect. UA1448 took a wrong turn down bravo, then provided incorrect positioning to the tower. Both were clueless, listen to how the pilot mixed up 23R and 23L whilst making the situation way more stressful.
Wow, she doesn't listen, I heard this once and understood that United 1448 overshot thier taxiway and were on the active...... Get them clear and hold all traffic on that runway, don't lose your cool and disaster averted.
I've read about this event for years. So much so that I had to download the airport diagram to sort it out. The tower responds that "23R is not an active runway", which is where the Tower completely blew it. 23R is the same runway as 23L, because it's only one runway, not parallel runways. What they were on was 16, at the intersection. Like a sitting duck. Her remarks, and attitude, were VERY unprofessional.
the airfield has been changed, regardless there is no way that runway 23R could be the same as runway 23L, if there was only one runway heading 230 degrees it would be called runway 23. if you aren't a pilot you should be careful what you are posting. it doesn't make a lot of sense to act like you know what you are talking about when you clearly have no flight training, ironically you are very confused, as you talk about how confused these pilots and controller were.
03:33 TWR: "United 1448 you shouldn't be anywhere near Kilo, hold your position please, just stop." they did not answer and just continue rolling shortly after, not acceptable at all. the tower's mistake was to not make sure United actually stopped after getting no confirmation at all...
The towers mistake was to have someone with a short fuse be in charge. If the airport can't bother to post signs that are correct that is NOT the visiting pilots problem. That is the airports problem. The lack of professionalism displayed by the Tower in charge person only shows just how bad over her head they were. The second mistake tower made and quite frankly scares the living daylights out of me, is tower had a plane lost in the fog on an active runway. About the only thing tower was doing well is trying to deflect blame from themselves for what reason I couldn't even begin to know. This airport tower personnel in charge put lives at risk and made decisions that could have killed someone.
True, but she potentially made it worse by trying to clear another aircraft when one was on the active runway. They BOTH made mistakes. At least 2998 had some sense and stood down. Whenever there's confusion, it's best to clear it up - ESPECIALLY in aviation.
Theirs was a very common and easy mistake that pilots say most professionals will make at least once when they can't properly read the runway signs in poor visibility. Her mistake was not common or easy, and that's why she got retraining and they didn't.
Mistakes happen. It is incredibly incredibly hard to taxi in heavy fog and this is long before iPads showed your position on taxi charts. They fessed up to their confusion and asked for help immediately when they realized they made a mistake but then faced a controller who wouldn’t listen to them and kept launching airplanes for takeoff in the fog without knowing for certain where all the airplanes on the airport were located. This lead to a near tragedy. Sure, if United doesn’t make the wrong turn none of this happens but mistakes happen and this was nearly made so so much worse. It’s a lesson airlines and ATC worldwide have all heard and studied since it’s a case study in how things go terribly wrong and how one person (in this case the pilots of USAir) can stop the error chain and set it all right again.
.......this is what happens when we HAVE to be all pc and have quota systems where women HAVE to be hired. Women can't work or take orders from other women......it shows in their sniping at each other. The controller is a typical female control freak....I pity the dude that has to come home to that!
It's hard to respect someone when they clear an aircraft for takeoff when there's confusion about another aircraft on an ACTIVE runway. It's understandable that she was pissed that the pilots didn't follow the correct taxi instructions. But that doesn't mean you don't pay attention to what's going on. When there's ANY sort of confusion that seems evident, then you hold all traffic until the confusion has been cleared up.
Mr. Baker...just because she was barking like a drill sergeant, does not mean "she is taking charge." The controller made bad mistakes and did not heed the warning from the United flight crew. In low vis operations, if someone says they're lost, or thinks they are lost, you 'stop the problem;' ie, you don't launch any planes and you send around anyone that my be landing on the affected runway (s). Everything stops until you get a CLEAR understanding of where that aircraft is. If you listen to the audio, the Fedex departure is heard screaming right by the United. This video is a prime example of a controller being a dumbass. The pilot tried to clue her in to the fact that they were lost and that there was a safety issue. I am being 100% objective because I too, am a controller. She could have done a way better job handling this. Kudos to the US Air flight crew that refused to depart and kudos to the United crew for owning up to the fact that they were lost and telling the controller that they were lost. The world's worst air disaster took place in 1977 (Los Rodeos Int'l Airport, Tenerife) under the same conditions (low visibility). This incident came very close to replicating that disaster in 1977.
I love how realistic this video is. You get to see exactly what the ATC lady saw that day out her window!
Not even close.
She never had eyes on United at anytime on ground.
The animation shown, attempts to recreate the setting, but unfortunately 25 years ago, computers and animating just wasn’t yet quite what it has come to be now.
So it gives us a dark blurry old animation looking video of a plane following accurately the facts of incident, but it stays in middle frame perfectly at all times. Giving us not a second of confusion to where it could be or if another plane was 100m above it. (FedEx isn’t even included)
So TLDR Long story short, this is very very inaccurate if you’re calling it 99% spot on as ATC saw it that night in person.
This lady's attitude is an accident waiting to happen.
Five star for the US Air pilots who refused the take off clearance when the situation looked dodgy.
Mistakes happen, and always will. What's important is how we RESPOND to mistakes. UA1448 made two understandable ones: 1) getting lost in low visibility, and 2) reporting a wrong runway number (4:09). But, they 1) took great pains to report their confusion, and 2) corrected the wrong runway number almost immediately (4:32).
Contrast that with the controller who cleared 2998 into the air TWICE despite 1448 reporting their locational uncertainty. It's almost as if the controller figured that if 1448 got a simple runway number wrong, then they couldn't be right about anything else (ie. the nearby takeoff of 1662).
There's a military maxim about always listening to the commander in the field, because he has a better picture of the situation on the ground than does than the brass back at HQ. So I think a pilot saying he is hearing takeoff noises is one who should be heeded. After all, the controller admits "I need to know what runway you're on, I can't see anything from the tower" (4:02). Yet despite 1) this lack of visual confirmation (and apparent lack of ground radar), and 2) 1448 reporting they are on an "active runway" (4:45), the controller contradicts 1448 based on faulty understanding of 1448's runway number (4:48) and continues business-as-usual by once again clearing 2998 for takeoff (5:32).
Note the unprofessional language: "United doesn't know where the hell he is" (5:45). And the patronizing remark to 2998: "...he's not anywhere near the runway, but you can hold short" (6:00). As if to say, 'go ahead you silly pilot, be stupidly overcautious if you must' showing that the controller still doesn't believe 1448 is on an active runway. Of course that last remark was dead wrong, and would have been catastrophically wrong had 2998's crew not been so vigilant (they received post-incident praise from the NTSB).
Wow. Airplanes lost on runways, and she’s clearing planes for takeoff.
Thank god the pilot didnt listen to her
If i had a penny for every pixel in that video, i'd have one penny...
Nice
ha larry us
Absolutely. The pilots on United 1448 made the right call. Their refusal to follow the repreated instructions from ground control prevented what would have been a horrible accident. It is hard to place blame considering such low visibility parameters as existed that night..
Um, you're talking about 2998. 1448 was the one that took the wrong turn and created the mess.
Could have been messy if the pilot had gone on her call. Wise decision indeed
A great lesson in owning up ASAP you think you are not where you should be.
United pilots did a good job when they got lost. Being bullied by the controller they stayed assertive and reiterated that they are on an active runway
the tower was losing it
Why is the recordings cut short & why is the picture so blurry?
The picture is depicting the fog that was occurring that night. As for the recordings being cut short, I'm not sure what you're referring to - except that's the way radios work.
Wow, this isn't 240p, this is 2.4p...
The towers mistake was to have someone with a short fuse be in charge. If the airport can't bother to post signs that are correct that is NOT the visiting pilots problem. That is the airports problem. The lack of professionalism displayed by the Tower in charge person only shows just how bad over her head they were. The second mistake tower made and quite frankly scares the living daylights out of me, is tower had a plane lost in the fog on an active runway. About the only thing tower was doing well is trying to deflect blame from themselves for what reason I couldn't even begin to know. This airport tower personnel in charge put lives at risk and made decisions that could have killed someone.
wow unbelievable attitude holy shit Unreal
@AgentMulder3667 Incorrect. UA1448 took a wrong turn down bravo, then provided incorrect positioning to the tower. Both were clueless, listen to how they reference 23R.
In response to the debate over TF Green's parallel runways:
The airport did have parallels at the time of the accident. 23L and 23R. Later on 23L was closed and became taxiway victor. So you're all right. Or wrong.
You're kind of right. I thought it was 23R/5L that was turned into taxiway victor. Am I right?
I understand the concept of parallel runways, but in that case there would have to be two of them, in order to be parallel, correct? Based on the airport diagram for T.F. Green airport I just downloaded, there's only one runway 23/5, and one 16/34.
What she fails to understand is when he told them they were on 16, that they were on 16, staring at Kilo, which was (then) on the east side of 23/5.
What a mess! Bravo to the US Air Pilots. Wonder if one of them was Sully?
That's because there WERE parallel runways at the time. But because of this incident, they turned one of them (23R/5L) into taxiway V. And now, runway 23L/5R is just runway 23/5.
this isnt the Tower's mistake, the UA pilot overshot the runway, thats what triggered. it
granted her mouth didnt help
@AgentMulder3667 Incorrect. UA1448 took a wrong turn down bravo, then provided incorrect positioning to the tower. Both were clueless, listen to how the pilot mixed up 23R and 23L whilst making the situation way more stressful.
@simpledudeable hey man, visibility was low that day...
Wow, she doesn't listen, I heard this once and understood that United 1448 overshot thier taxiway and were on the active...... Get them clear and hold all traffic on that runway, don't lose your cool and disaster averted.
oh my god...losing cool is the way to ..you know what is next...unbelievable
I've read about this event for years. So much so that I had to download the airport diagram to sort it out. The tower responds that "23R is not an active runway", which is where the Tower completely blew it. 23R is the same runway as 23L, because it's only one runway, not parallel runways. What they were on was 16, at the intersection. Like a sitting duck.
Her remarks, and attitude, were VERY unprofessional.
No, there were parallel runways - at least at the time. They turned 23R/5L into taxiway V after this incident. 23L/5R is now just 23/5.
Is it sad that I find it funny when the controller completely loses her shit?
@damank9 More like as high as the space shuttle
the airfield has been changed, regardless there is no way that runway 23R could be the same as runway 23L, if there was only one runway heading 230 degrees it would be called runway 23. if you aren't a pilot you should be careful what you are posting. it doesn't make a lot of sense to act like you know what you are talking about when you clearly have no flight training, ironically you are very confused, as you talk about how confused these pilots and controller were.
03:33 TWR: "United 1448 you shouldn't be anywhere near Kilo, hold your position please, just stop."
they did not answer and just continue rolling shortly after, not acceptable at all.
the tower's mistake was to not make sure United actually stopped after getting no confirmation at all...
The towers mistake was to have someone with a short fuse be in charge. If the airport can't bother to post signs that are correct that is NOT the visiting pilots problem. That is the airports problem. The lack of professionalism displayed by the Tower in charge person only shows just how bad over her head they were. The second mistake tower made and quite frankly scares the living daylights out of me, is tower had a plane lost in the fog on an active runway. About the only thing tower was doing well is trying to deflect blame from themselves for what reason I couldn't even begin to know. This airport tower personnel in charge put lives at risk and made decisions that could have killed someone.
she was not wrong those pilots made the mistake by missing there turn after being directed to November Tango
True, but she potentially made it worse by trying to clear another aircraft when one was on the active runway. They BOTH made mistakes. At least 2998 had some sense and stood down. Whenever there's confusion, it's best to clear it up - ESPECIALLY in aviation.
Theirs was a very common and easy mistake that pilots say most professionals will make at least once when they can't properly read the runway signs in poor visibility. Her mistake was not common or easy, and that's why she got retraining and they didn't.
Mistakes happen. It is incredibly incredibly hard to taxi in heavy fog and this is long before iPads showed your position on taxi charts. They fessed up to their confusion and asked for help immediately when they realized they made a mistake but then faced a controller who wouldn’t listen to them and kept launching airplanes for takeoff in the fog without knowing for certain where all the airplanes on the airport were located. This lead to a near tragedy. Sure, if United doesn’t make the wrong turn none of this happens but mistakes happen and this was nearly made so so much worse. It’s a lesson airlines and ATC worldwide have all heard and studied since it’s a case study in how things go terribly wrong and how one person (in this case the pilots of USAir) can stop the error chain and set it all right again.
what a shit quality at the end
.......this is what happens when we HAVE to be all pc and have quota systems where women HAVE to be hired. Women can't work or take orders from other women......it shows in their sniping at each other. The controller is a typical female control freak....I pity the dude that has to come home to that!
Women.
I respect her because she was taking charge but she wasn't getting the respect she deserved
It's hard to respect someone when they clear an aircraft for takeoff when there's confusion about another aircraft on an ACTIVE runway. It's understandable that she was pissed that the pilots didn't follow the correct taxi instructions. But that doesn't mean you don't pay attention to what's going on. When there's ANY sort of confusion that seems evident, then you hold all traffic until the confusion has been cleared up.
Mr. Baker...just because she was barking like a drill sergeant, does not mean "she is taking charge." The controller made bad mistakes and did not heed the warning from the United flight crew. In low vis operations, if someone says they're lost, or thinks they are lost, you 'stop the problem;' ie, you don't launch any planes and you send around anyone that my be landing on the affected runway (s). Everything stops until you get a CLEAR understanding of where that aircraft is. If you listen to the audio, the Fedex departure is heard screaming right by the United. This video is a prime example of a controller being a dumbass. The pilot tried to clue her in to the fact that they were lost and that there was a safety issue. I am being 100% objective because I too, am a controller. She could have done a way better job handling this. Kudos to the US Air flight crew that refused to depart and kudos to the United crew for owning up to the fact that they were lost and telling the controller that they were lost. The world's worst air disaster took place in 1977 (Los Rodeos Int'l Airport, Tenerife) under the same conditions (low visibility). This incident came very close to replicating that disaster in 1977.