Early on in my flight training, my original CFI was terrific. He was professional and pleasant. Each flight was a challenging and positive experience. Then he got the call from the airlines. My next CFI had the attitude of the captain in this video. An arrogant know-it-all who made me feel tense and apprehensive. I flew one single flight with him. After I landed and secured the airplane, I walked to the FBO and requested another instructor who turned out to be just as terrific as my original CFI. If you're not comfortable with your instructor for any reason, do yourself a favor, make the change.
My dad was certified in a Lear from the mid 1960s until he retired in 1996. I asked him about this crash. He stated that just about any mistake that could be made WAS made in this flight. The Learjet is a wonderful airplane, but it isn't a particularly easy plane to fly, the margin between controlled flight and uncontrolled is very thin.
Always know when to add power, level the wings, and go around. Totally avoidable. The captain was so far behind the plane, I'm surprised he was in the crash.
I wood I want you to do, is go stand in front of the airplane and put your hand on the nose. That’s the last time you’re going to be in front of the airplane tonight
That is terrible. Still gave it a thumbs-up. I have to believe that the captain was somehow impaired that day. Don't think he would made it to his position if this was how he normally performed his duties.
@Richard G doesn't look like we'll ever know, but even though pilots get physicals. On job sites I lost count of guys who were borderline diabetic, non linear stuff: dementia, or what we call "having a bad week:, and age has nothing to do with it. A HS friend passed on his couch at the age of 27 after almost a decade of flying and physicals. No idea what happened.
I'd actually met the SIC a month before the crash. Super nice kid. At the time of the crash, I was working with his instructor at CAE in a Citation 550 simulator. A further year after that, I was working for a cargo company in Texas where he had washed out of training. Its amazing how closely his and my career paralleled each other.
Completely different scenario. The Q400 guy wasn’t concerned about airspace and altitude restrictions or talking on the radio and accepting clearances and complying with instructions or giving briefings and standard calls in a two crew environment or flying an approach profile and landing the aircraft. It’s easy to just throw a plane around in VFR conditions until it crashes. It’s not easy to fly it safely and professionally.
@@Bartonovich52 That's basically my point that while the Q400 kid obviously wouldn't have concern for proper procedures his situational awareness and basic airmanship were still superior to the professional lear jet crew that not only completely lacked SA they lost control of a perfectly controllable airplane. The q400 kid never lost control his crash was intentional
How was his situational awareness better? They held departures at Sea Tac to clear the airspace, it was a beautiful VFR day, and ATC was giving him rather general instructions to stay away from or head toward certain areas which he didn’t really comply with. He didn’t know that his fuel was going to go down as fast as it was, and after he did his barrel roll he said one of his engines was messed up-likely from fuel starvation or over temp/over torque-so the crash may not have been entirely intentional. Yes... it’s impressive that he was able to fly that aircraft... but his best day was still worse than this crew’s worse day. They were wondering whether he could even pull off a straight in visual approach and landing to the AFB.. never mind a speed and altitude and airspace restricted ILS circling approach.
@@Bartonovich52 The kid in the Q400 was flying the plane to the best of his abilities the crew in that lear jet were passengers in their own plane with the illusion of control. If that jet crew displayed any less awareness they would have been asleep that wasn't an accident it was arrogance or complete incompetence.
Flying a plane to the best of your abilities does not equal good situational awareness. It’s precisely why we have minimum training standards for licensed pilots. Moving the controls and physically operating the aircraft is nothing compared to pilot decision making and situational awareness. In spite of all this crew did wrong, there are still a ton of things this crew did right in comparison to the Q400 kid. They were licensed and approved to fly the aircraft. The aircraft was fuelled for the expected flight. The weather was checked-even though it was hours old. The takeoff was done properly without squealing brakes and smoking tires without clearance into the middle of heavy traffic. They filed a flight plan-even though it had the wrong altitude for such a short flight. They stuck to the lateral portion of the filed flight plan or as cleared-only on approach did they screw up vectors and intercepts and profiles and the circling maneuver. The captain realized late in the flight how close he was and that he needed to get the ATIS so he’d be ready for approach and landing. The Q400 kid probably didn’t even know what ATIS was and had no intentions of landing anyways. So, sorry, I still disagree with you.
This video leaves out a lot of cockpit recordings and details and this was discussed in the cockpit recordings. The Captain did not know because he did not have a GPS. The copilot offered to let Captain use his iPad and the Captain declined.
As a 767 Captain with over 13,000 hours it is painful to watch this video seeing so many mistakes made and SOP not being followed. And after reading the Flying Mag article I can't for the life of me figure how these two ended up in an aircraft cockpit! The definition of professional is doing the right thing when no one is watching. Thank God no one else was killed. RIP.
As a completely unqualified person who can't fly and had no medical training, I feel qualified to say that the captain was impaired by drugs and alcohol. I suggest a review of training procedures and hiring practices by the company. I suggest digging up his corpse and charging it with murder.
@@jennydiazvigneault5548 You aren't even qualified to know standard NTSB investigations. They would have looked for that and they didn't mention it because it was not a factor.
@@glennquagmire3258 I would have to agree. Every crash involves a toxicology report done on all of the pilots. Nothing was mentioned in the investigation as a factor.
@@glennquagmire3258 I'm qualified enough to know a flight plan when its filed, and how to follow it. Your flight hours means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as far as I'm concerned. Your NTSB "investigation" into John Kennedy Jr., as well as TWA flt. 800, shows that, at best, your FAA is comprised of criminals.
Oh @ Stratoleft. Lulz... you’re just showing your inexperience. Flight plans in IFR flight are mostly for basic intentions and in case of communication failures. You accept your IFR clearance, and then enroute you ask for or are cleared different things. The type of approach you do is never in the flight plan. Usually only the arrival STAR is... which can be for multiple runways or if the runway changes or you might get recleared a different STAR or put on vectors for an approach. It’s when you are cleared the approach that you have to comply with that clearance provided you’ve accepted it in the form of a readback. So fly heading XXX to intercept the localizer, cleared ILS 6 circling 1 was the clearance he should have complied with. Not in the flight plan whatsofucking ever. Stick to flight simulator.
Someone told me that it was 10% getting it up in the air, 20% keeping it up in the air, and 70% getting the plane back on the ground in one piece. It used to be that most anybody could get a driver's license but only a few could their pilot's license; now it seems like most anybody can do both!
Kinda reminded of UA FLT 173, flight crew kept trying to tell the captain they had fuel problems while he was trying to diagnose another issue. They ran out of fuel over a populated area near a airport.
More common than many realize - last fall a biz jet over ran runway at Greenville SC broke in two - crew fatals, pax serious injuries. Pilot was technically not certificated for that a/c.
9:03 Tower: "You gonna start that turn?" Captain: "Ah... unable. Can we try the approach again please?" Minor impact on your ego, much less of an impact on the ground. Two lives saved by one simple admittance that you screwed up.
i was curious if they could make a left turn around to runway one; i think the copilot would have had to ask the Capt if he can see the runway from his side of the cockpit; .. but he just wasn't comfortable; I feel bad for the young co pilot though
I come back every so often ; i have to with this flight because i get the feeling that flying every plane is a different experience. This is probably the case with a small jet like this one. But it's just a little too big to pull off a Tomcat stunt (fighter jet). I only have Cessna experience which to me is like being inside an angry mosquito
The tox reports came back clean... this was pure, unadulterated, incompetence - from both of them. The SIC had over 450 hours in a Lear and he still couldn't hold a heading or altitude? Whomever checked these two out was also criminally incompetent.
I am in aviation but not a pilot, after watching this and reading quite a few of the comments I think the lack of cockpit communication, and obvious distraction from the left seat was very likely caused by texting. The video reminded me of my vain attempts to navigate and land the Lear in MS Flight Sim in the late 90s after 3 successful Cessna 172 landings.
@Anton Zuykov - The question is then how the hell did he get his pilot's licence and type certification rating (not to mention a job with that company)?
When the known course of the Lear was bringing them to within visual range of two other airports it is shocking to hear such little regard was placed upon their approach.
These guys had no business in that plane. I am a former Naval Aviator, and flew the F-14. I flew a Citation III with a former Air Force F-4 pilot. We always went by every check list, double checked each other, and always determined who was driving and who was backup, before we lit the fires
@Ranger.Infantry No probs, but if what you say was said, wasn't actually said ('turn downwind') then your 'joke' pretty much falls flat. It just becomes 'manufactured'.
My thoughts/question also. Aside from the violation of a bunch of rules, he didn't know how long the flight was going to be from the start. I'd say he made many poor decisions before even launching. The impairment could have been anything from drugs to a massively concerning issue away from the cockpit, based on listening to this. His 2 weeks prior to the accident flight would have been revealing.
@@andytaylor1588 I think it was a suicide mission...the guy had given up. The SIC should have called a mayday and attempted to land the thing himself after knocking the "captain" out somehow.
Wow! just listening to this video only I'm struck by the amount of confusion/uncertainty and lack of situational awareness on the part of this Captain. Anyone know if he was ultimately confirmed as impaired??? My first thought was the guy knew he was impaired and didnt want to assume command. FO seems to know they are in trouble and hand off control to the Captain - but Captain refuses (?!)
This video leaves out a ton of cockpit recordings and details. There was nothing wrong with the Captain. He was just distracted and busy trying to show the copilot how to fly the plane the whole time. The copilot had a very terrible training track record, failed multiple tests and crashed the plane twice on approach in the simulator, basically failed everything and that's why he was only authorized to call out instruments. In the simulator it was noted that he had a hard time just simply maintaining airspeed. Instead of realizing this kid is terrible at flying the plane and taking the controls back, the Captain tried to make him fly it anyways. When the Captain finally took controls, for some reason he still attempted to land on runway 1 even though they were in no position to to do. He stalled it and crashed.
@@SOLDOZER OK - I'll accept your premise. Bottom line - total loss of situational awareness by the captain - - FO seems to know they were in trouble when he suggests handling of command to the captain - captain ignores the FO's request (for reasons you suggest that he was too busy "training" or helping the FO????)
They zigzagged back-and-forth, deviating from the flightpath multiple times, violated airspeed requirements multiple times, ignored altitude instructions, ignored radio frequency instructions, failed to circle properly for approach to runway 1. This flight was doomed from the start. Fortunately, no one else was on the plane.
So much is wrong with how this flight is conducted. It's hard to know where to begin. These pilots had no business flying. No CRM, no company procedures, unqualified FO, unprofessional (possibly incompetent) captain, no proper radio communications. I mean where do you begin?
How could the pilot not realize he was heading down to the ground rapidly, the footage reveals it was a clear day? Not a pilot, but the ATC talks so quickly but I guess if you know what your doing it's easier to comprehend what is being said, but do they talk that fast because they are extremely busy. Kinda seems like the problem with doctors prescriptions, in that the speed-talking increases chances of miscommunication. Just like sloppy hand writing.
@@toddlavigne6441 - Yeah, controllers in the NYC area are extremely busy. And you're correct, as a pilot, you're used to a a stream of information coming rapidly from ATC, and if you're head is in the game and you're not impaired, it's not a problem. I doubt this incompetent PIC ever even glanced at the approach plate for Teterboro before flying into some of the busiest airspace in the world.
Thanks for the info. How can someone who appears to be this incompetent ever get their license/ approval to fly this small jet? Seems as though this accident should never have happened.
@@toddlavigne6441 The SIC made the worst mistake: *he* was flying (whether he "should have been" or not isn't relevant) and *he* confirmed the turn but *failed* to exercise it, which led to the immediate loss of lift due to altitude loss via the abrupt low speed turn; resulting in the stall, roll to inversion; and the final brutal crash.
@@ronwilliams357 He was beyond incompetent. He was not fit to be a captain at all if you simply watched the video. He didn't run any checklist, he gave wrong information to the SIC, and ignored the SIC at times. And you're asking "wHat FAR dId hE vIoLaTe?"
Reminds me of a guy that worked for Skycraft in the 1980s. Won't mention his name but he was a total know-it-all. I could see him doing something like this. How he ever got and kept his job was always beyond me. Some just slip through the cracks.
Jeebus cripes, wtf! No adherence to company policy, not complying with ATC, no situational awareness... no wonder they lawn-darted the Lear. There is no room nor time for that garbage in aviation especially in a high performance jet. Everything happens a lot faster which means you are in serious trouble much faster. Glad they didn't have any passengers or kill anyone on the ground.
I’ve done this approach many times, it can be a can of worms if you don’t brief it. These guys didn’t do any briefings or follow SOP’s do Darwin Award it is.
I used to do this approach when I flew out of TEB, I can’t believe what they must have been seeing. The approach is tight enough even when you make that normal turn but to do it like a mile away is insane
Completely the PIC's fault. This incident clearly demonstrates that there is absolutely no tolerance for not following procedures. That's why it exists...
I've experienced pilots of all hours and experiences that have egos and worse off complacency. An instructor that had complacency and "flight school pressure" ended my flying. Situations become routine and people become lazy. Okay for flight sim and video games. NOT okay for real life. It ends in tragedy or disappointment.
Reading about the incident in Flying magazine it looks like even the captain wasn't qualified to occupy the seat he was in. Both pilots had multiple failed check rides.
@@kewkabe The SIC was rated a 0 out of 4 in his training and crashed multiple times in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments.
I can't imagine not using at minimum a short verbal checklist with another crewmember present. Mindblowing. Checklists are drummed into ANY pilot by the time he/she has soloed their first single engine propeller airplane. I don't get it.
The Captain was not flying the plane, the SIC was. And the SIC had a terrible training record, failed almost everything and crashed twice in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments.
Reading the CVR transcripts of this reminds me a lot of the Air Florida crash in DC. Both captains were about equally as incompetent & had first officers that were frustrated/intimidated by them.
Awful, rest in peace. This went wrong from takeoff to crash. Even though it was complete lack of situational awareness, this was an instant missed approach once the realized they were lined up incorrectly a mile out. Puzzling.
Makes me wonder how many tragic accidents could have been avoided if only the pilot swallowed his pride instead of trying to pull off a miracle to save face. Generally speaking, I think many pilots have huge egos, thinking they are the smartest person in the cockpit, maybe some are, but everybody makes mistakes, these accident videos are proof of that.
While I agree with pretty much all the comments I've read, I'm going to add one more thing. (Forgive me if somebody already said this, and I just didn't see it.) ATC bares some responsibility here too. They are one link in the chain. Ever heard a controller say something like, "Too far left/too low for a safe approach, execute missed approach. Fly heading XXX, Climb and maintain X thousand. Contact Approach, 123.45?" Teterboro Tower is a RADAR facility, and at some point should have told the crew they were no longer in a position to safely circle to runway 1. At the point when the tower controller asked if they were going to start their turn, he should have instead told them to break it off, give them some climb out instructions, and sent them back to approach to try again.
totally makes sense! the controller was probably more interested in other trivial things than landing that jet.ATC people have blood in their hands but they probably were not even in the NTSB investigative radar.
Remember that first day in flight school when you heard "Stay AHEAD of your aircraft? THIS is what happens when you're way behind the curve and have lost almost all SITNESS. Making a turn like that is OK in your 182 on the short final into 27 at Oshkosh...not so much in a Lear.
TakeDeadAim - No, a turn like that in any airplane is not ok on short final. Many stall/spin accidents occur on short final, low & slow, with flaps & gear hanging out, while overshooting the runway center-line. One thing I remember well from early training is my wonderful, old, former military instructor practically yelling at me "NEVER, EVER bank that much on downwind to base or base to final!" While yanking the yoke out of my hands and banking back to the right. I still, thankfully, hear him to this day on many approaches.
A turn like that is what it looked like Jack Roush tried to do when he crashed his jet at OshKosh. The approach looked more like Roush was trying to show-off, lucky outcome.
I'm just a private pilot but the dreadful "flying" here is thankfully very rare. When ATC give a pilot an instruction that has to be complied with unless an emergency is declared. Ignoring the "Captain" for a moment, the SIC had no business to hold that position on that flight if he wasn't capable of completing it to a safe and successful landing. As for the "Captain" ... he had no business to be in charge of that flight .. or any other flight ... the SIC should have had enough experience to take control of the aircraft ... to override the idiot "Captain" ... unbelievable,
For me, this highlights the requirement for a legal obligation upon airlines to pair junior/inexperienced pilots with experienced pilots with an excellent track record.
As a non flyer, it staggers me that ATC rattle off instructions so quickly. In any other environment, if your goal is to be understood, you speak slowly and clearly. Just seems to increase pressure in the cockpit, at the very least it seems unhelpful
There is no way either these two people should have been at the controls of this aircraft, they displayed no airmanship whatsoever, from a retired Captain!
Not a pilot, here (and I'd probably crap myself flying thru any part of NYC airspace) but, it doesn't look complicated, I bet even I could do it. Fly to TORBY, turn right til you see the big stadium, turn left after the big stadium to get a visual on the runway, hand the controls back over to the guy who actually knows what he's doing to put it on the ground. Did I miss something?
some things the FAA/tower can take from this. they failed to follow many instructions. after the 3 rd failed instruction. perhaps tower could have said sir I am declaring a pan pan for you. climb maintain 2,000 feet. and then vector them in very closely and get them back onto the localizer and get them back on the ILS etc . that might have been the only way to avoid this. The problem is approach/departure/Tower is always hella busy . but as Isaid after the 3rd order/instruction. id be worried
I think that may be asking too much of the ATC - that is one hell of a crowded airspace and it's probably all they can do to keep 'em from running into each other. Also, it would be a mistake to judge ATC too narrowly, solely based on the transcriptions to/from the Lear because in the existing wind conditions there were probably many other aircraft having similar difficulties holding to the directed course, altitude, etc. They likely had their hands more than full handling general aviation as it was.
@@chuckschillingvideos Yes. I have personally overlooked situations due to higher volume. It really was a pilot problem. If the transponder was and it probably was then TCAS would help with conflicts. I think I will reserve any statements until I get my eyes on the NTSB report and findings. Thanks for the input.
Uh.... towers don’t declare pan pans. They can just give the punishment vectors and go from there. Tower should have cancelled approach or landing clearance and said to go around
@@Bartonovich52 towers and ATC have declared emergencies for ppl all the time. they do it for VFR only pilots getting stuck in IMC. plus engine issues over the water. nicko's wings is perfect example they declared an emergency for him when he had engine problems
I'm not a pilot, but even if they had managed to land safely at Teterboro, wouldn't there have been enough done and documented to get them both grounded and/or fined?
Was the SIC incapable of flying the jet himself? Thought by the time you were sitting in the cockpit of something like a Learjet that you’d have enough hours to know file/review your flight plan prior to depart, know how to fly your plane, know how follow simple ATC instructions, and know how to land. Just WTF.
SIC had a terrible training record, failing almost everything and had a record crashing planes in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments. Instead of just calling out instruments, Captain bonehead had him flying a real plane which he also almost crashed. When Captain bonehead took over they were way off course and he still tried to bank hard and still land on Runway 1. Only they had no speed, he stalled it and POOF!
WHen I was in the Air Force I caught a ride in a chase place (something like that) for F-15's from the base anyway it was a great flight but the SIC was new and nervous I dont think he ever landed one. Anyway he asked the pilot to take the controls about 1 minute from landing the pilot refused and told him he could do and talked him to landing which he did. But man watching this made me realize how short life is. that plane is a rocket too , taking off and landing
Right now I am sitting at max 1 mile from that runway. I am from the town that overlooks TEB and the sound of those jets is the sound of home. The plane crashed at the DPW in Carlstadt and damaged a factory/warehouse, fortunately with no one killed.Those two fools could have killed many in the towns on the other side of Route 17. I also read that the PIC wasn't cleared to fly the Lear either.
I have no idea how he could have died considering he was at least 50 miles behind the aircraft. Didn’t know how long the flight was since he asked for higher altitude and wondered why they said approach and runways in use. All the while trying to teach and monitor this kid what sounds like basic flight maneuvers. Had no situational awareness on the approach-even just tune up an NDB and watch the needle on the RMI.. you’ll know exactly where you are in relation to it-never mind the moving map I’m sure he had. Not aware of the descent profile. Every good jet pilot knows 1000 feet/3 miles instinctively. Not listening to his SIC who is getting nervous, completely helpless, and wants you to take control. And finally... trying to salvage a bad approach by hot dogging a high performance aircraft rather than fling missed, collecting yourself, rebriefing, and attempting again.
WTF, capt was drunk. I knew I didn't want to watch this thing - avoided clicking it for weeks. How can he say we're doing it when no attempt is made, then both totally forgot about "lawn darts at the end." I've done circling in MD-80s at JFK and can tell you ATC has no patience for this. After 2 years I am going to amend my remarks -- in the wake of a similar L-35 crash at Gilespie, CA -- to say that ATC probably should have told them to go around when they went less than a mile out and still had not started the circling maneuver. They MIGHT have lived if they woke up to what was going on as they never established a stabilized approach and it only got worse throughout what they did.
@@steveburton5825 Leo, that’s exactly what I thought. Must have thought the SIC would carry him through. SIC at best knew he was over his head, and as soon as the PIC touched the stick, boom!
It's amazing how many planes crash because of a stall, almost all of them could have been avoided if they had only watched their airspeed. If I was a pilot, I think that would be my number one obsession.
The problem started when captain thought they were hundreds of miles away and never caught up, then found the true stall speed trying to salvage the approach. Good vid of to much complacency and a true shortage of qualified pilots.
Maybe the problem started when the captain got into the cockpit. Not disagreeing with you. How could he think they were hundreds of miles away when he should’ve known the distance from the get go? Maybe he was being cocky. Being cocky cost 2 lives and damaged families.
@@jugheadjones5458 Cockpit voice recordings left out of this video, this is discussed. The Captain had no GPS, the SIC told him he was wrong and offer Captain the use of his iPad.
THAT WAS A FUCKED UP LANDING AND IT WAS TIME AT 8:38 TO ADMIT THE MISTAKE AND GO AROUND !!! AND TRY THE LANDING AGAIN WITH THE MORE CAPTAIN IN COMMAND AND HEAD IN THE GAME. NO MORE TIME NOW FOR THAT GO AROUND. IN HEAVEN - THESE 2 WILL BE PRACTICING GO-AROUNDS FOR ETERNITY.
And neither bothered with the check list? Then it was inevitable. I drove past there 2 weeks later and while passing the airport, briefly turned my head, taking a quick glance, thinking about what had just happened. It gave me a sickening chill.
No doubt both pilots were staggeringly incompetent. However, the ATC does not come out of this well. At any given point ATC could have slowed down and checked that the PIC was aware of the circle to runway 1 procedure and understood it. It was clear very early on that PIC had no understanding of this procedure. It was also abundantly clear to any observant ATCO that this aircraft was consistently being badly flown, and should have spotted straight away that something was amiss after repeated failures of PIC to read back instructions properly. So while ATC cannot be directly blamed it is a fair assumption that they were a factor in this accident. This flight was crying out for a go around instruction from ATC.
Totally agree! When the SIC failed to read back instructions numerous times, ATC should have stepped in and confirmed the turn. Looks like the man flying the plane was 100% certain he was to line up with runway 6 not 1.
No you're wrong. I'm an FAA controller and that's not how ATC works. They were flying under IFR so they were instrument rated and can accept instrument approach clearances, which they did. If a pilot is not familiar with a procedure they tell ATC they're unfamiliar with it and we give them a different approach. ATC was zero factor in this accident, as the NTSB also concluded.
@@kewkabe of course you would say that you are all in collusion and covering for each other, typical government entities. Those controller have blood in their hands n should have been held accountable.
This is very likely the captain’s fault for not taking controls due to the second in command not capable of this hard left turn at too low an airspeed. Things happen rapidly in jet flight vs a prop plane. This clearly seems to be the captain’s fault.
I think US speakasfastasyoupossiblycan air traffic controllers are partly to blame. No other country speaks as quickly in the air. Air traffic into some British airports is much more congested than in the US, but the controllers speak *carefully* and *slowly* and *precisely* and require properly read-backs...I think such communication leads to better comprehension and better compliance by pilots...and better safer flights than in the US. I have no idea why American controllers all seem to want to speak so quickly in such a safety-critical environment.
I respectfully disagree. I have ferried aircraft from parts of Europe back to the US and European controllers are no better when it comes to instruction.
@@davidwarkentin9848 you may have a *few* examples of less good European controllers, but the US problem is endemic across the US. speakasfastasyoupossiblycan US air traffic control *cannot* be correlated with the safe conduct of flight and it appears to have grown up as a macho thing that only happens in the US. Why hasn't the FAA dealt with this?
I can't speak for European controllers (and your comment is a total generalization anyway, since there are bad European controllers, and bad American controllers as well), but otherwise I totally agree. Some of these NYC Metro controllers seem totally bored of their jobs, disinterested, speak to fast, many have an accent, don't annunciate clearly, speak in a monotone voice, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure this is true to some extent of AT Controllers around the world. There's always great ones, and always bad ones, and everything in between.
Student pilot here (USA). We need recurring training for everyone on freq. Clear enunciation, pace and volume that place emphasis where it belongs go a long way to helping the listener understand. Maintaining a relaxed, friendly demeanour is a Human Factors aspect of comms that also increases the effectiveness of speech. Any trace of negative emotion can trigger an emotional response, which impairs thinking. Training in maintaining relaxation in pressure situations will also reduce risk. There is enormous room to improve.
@Box of Rocks congestion creates great time pressure. they all know the formula and even when the transmission is not perfectly clear, the brain fills in the missing gaps because the formula carries a lot of the meaning. For example: "and the rockets red glare the boms bursting in air gave poroof thrtought hte nifgght that our flafg was stil there" can you sing the tune for those words? If so you got the message even though the expression of it was not perfectly clear. same thing happens with the radio. true, it sounds macho (but only because that is incidentally the culture; they aren't doing it *to be* macho, they do it *because they already are*) , and true, it's unnecessary (it's just a very routine activity; so that tends to create shortcuts), and it sounds like showing off (anytime someone is really good at a high pressure, high status, high visibility job their ego gets involved, even if it's not intentional). So all those things you mention are really happening but not for the reason you suggest. The point is the same though: too fast is counterproductive and the best controllers (like Kennedy Steve in New York) follow the model I suggest: they speak clearly, and not too fast, and sound like they are in a good mood. Having fun at work has been proven to improve productivity and creativity and job satisfaction.
I'm an investigator by profession. I've been up in small planes for professional reasons. When there are not 2 pilots, I mention: "Not to jinx us, but if something incapacitates you, what do I do to keep this thing flying until someone else can help?" Based on this limited "training," even I could recognize the multiple errors. **Now I will be checking the NTSB for mention of the record of the pilot's employer prior to getting on the aircraft.** The full NTSB report is worse than the summary already linked: www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR1902.pdf RIP. But there were errors not just on the flight. Like, when doing pre-employment record checks, if the previous employer does not respond -- you can hire the guy anyway. Period. (Clearly, at minimum the hire should be subject to continuing other methods to verify pilot history). We all make mistakes. But both of these guys had a history... and most of us learn more quickly when we are held accountable. Instead they were passed on to another employer, who didn't particularly seem to care either.
Mind boggled, several calls by SIC for the captain to take the controls not even responded to!?!? They literally did everything wrong right up to impact - truly the mind boggles, how do you attain the experience and skill of flying an executive jet then so severely botch up what was at their level (experience not altitude) essentially a straight forward approach ?!
Early on in my flight training, my original CFI was terrific. He was professional and pleasant. Each flight was a challenging and positive experience. Then he got the call from the airlines. My next CFI had the attitude of the captain in this video. An arrogant know-it-all who made me feel tense and apprehensive. I flew one single flight with him. After I landed and secured the airplane, I walked to the FBO and requested another instructor who turned out to be just as terrific as my original CFI. If you're not comfortable with your instructor for any reason, do yourself a favor, make the change.
John, the words terrific and terrible. The first 5 letters are the same. I suggest you use another word.
Same happened to me
@@aineahmed9963 why are you replying to me?
@@jlockwood65 The United States is very small. We all almost know each other.
@@32SQUID sorry my mistake - sorry I offended u terribly
My dad was certified in a Lear from the mid 1960s until he retired in 1996. I asked him about this crash. He stated that just about any mistake that could be made WAS made in this flight. The Learjet is a wonderful airplane, but it isn't a particularly easy plane to fly, the margin between controlled flight and uncontrolled is very thin.
Always know when to add power, level the wings, and go around. Totally avoidable. The captain was so far behind the plane, I'm surprised he was in the crash.
i know,...right !
A OK Even more bizarre, why do we still not know his name??
I wood I want you to do, is go stand in front of the airplane and put your hand on the nose. That’s the last time you’re going to be in front of the airplane tonight
That is terrible. Still gave it a thumbs-up. I have to believe that the captain was somehow impaired that day. Don't think he would made it to his position if this was how he normally performed his duties.
@Richard G doesn't look like we'll ever know, but even though pilots get physicals. On job sites I lost count of guys who were borderline diabetic, non linear stuff: dementia, or what we call "having a bad week:, and age has nothing to do with it. A HS friend passed on his couch at the age of 27 after almost a decade of flying and physicals. No idea what happened.
I'd actually met the SIC a month before the crash. Super nice kid.
At the time of the crash, I was working with his instructor at CAE in a Citation 550 simulator.
A further year after that, I was working for a cargo company in Texas where he had washed out of training.
Its amazing how closely his and my career paralleled each other.
Both pilots had trouble passing check rides.
One ended up in a crash one did not .
Never seen such an unprofessional captain!, no checklists, no proper radio communications, no CRM. Thanks for the informative video.
CAPTAIN WILL BE DOING THE CHECKLIST FOR ETERNITY NOW AND SAYING SORRY TO HIS CO-PILOT FOR KILLING HIS ASS.
Shoot for all we know he was too busy on his cell phone texting
@@blakjack3053 LOL
idk van zanten from the tenerife disaster was pretty bad
The guy in the stolen Q400 had a better grasp of what he was doing than these guys
Completely different scenario.
The Q400 guy wasn’t concerned about airspace and altitude restrictions or talking on the radio and accepting clearances and complying with instructions or giving briefings and standard calls in a two crew environment or flying an approach profile and landing the aircraft.
It’s easy to just throw a plane around in VFR conditions until it crashes. It’s not easy to fly it safely and professionally.
@@Bartonovich52 That's basically my point that while the Q400 kid obviously wouldn't have concern for proper procedures his situational awareness and basic airmanship were still superior to the professional lear jet crew that not only completely lacked SA they lost control of a perfectly controllable airplane. The q400 kid never lost control his crash was intentional
How was his situational awareness better?
They held departures at Sea Tac to clear the airspace, it was a beautiful VFR day, and ATC was giving him rather general instructions to stay away from or head toward certain areas which he didn’t really comply with.
He didn’t know that his fuel was going to go down as fast as it was, and after he did his barrel roll he said one of his engines was messed up-likely from fuel starvation or over temp/over torque-so the crash may not have been entirely intentional.
Yes... it’s impressive that he was able to fly that aircraft... but his best day was still worse than this crew’s worse day. They were wondering whether he could even pull off a straight in visual approach and landing to the AFB.. never mind a speed and altitude and airspace restricted ILS circling approach.
@@Bartonovich52 The kid in the Q400 was flying the plane to the best of his abilities the crew in that lear jet were passengers in their own plane with the illusion of control. If that jet crew displayed any less awareness they would have been asleep that wasn't an accident it was arrogance or complete incompetence.
Flying a plane to the best of your abilities does not equal good situational awareness. It’s precisely why we have minimum training standards for licensed pilots. Moving the controls and physically operating the aircraft is nothing compared to pilot decision making and situational awareness.
In spite of all this crew did wrong, there are still a ton of things this crew did right in comparison to the Q400 kid.
They were licensed and approved to fly the aircraft.
The aircraft was fuelled for the expected flight.
The weather was checked-even though it was hours old.
The takeoff was done properly without squealing brakes and smoking tires without clearance into the middle of heavy traffic.
They filed a flight plan-even though it had the wrong altitude for such a short flight. They stuck to the lateral portion of the filed flight plan or as cleared-only on approach did they screw up vectors and intercepts and profiles and the circling maneuver.
The captain realized late in the flight how close he was and that he needed to get the ATIS so he’d be ready for approach and landing. The Q400 kid probably didn’t even know what ATIS was and had no intentions of landing anyways.
So, sorry, I still disagree with you.
How can a pilot think they were "hundreds of miles away" on a flight from PHA to TEB?
Exactly
suicide pilot making this look like a mistake
This video leaves out a lot of cockpit recordings and details and this was discussed in the cockpit recordings. The Captain did not know because he did not have a GPS. The copilot offered to let Captain use his iPad and the Captain declined.
drunk?
@@ghostrider-be9ek no. Sober
I feel sorry for the first officer. He knew he was in over his head and asked the captain to take over, but he didn’t. Captain killed both of them.
Pantdino Very true.
He was a second officer who knew he wasn't certified to fly, just observe.
Exactly
Suicide murder?
spot on my friend. The SIC asked the PIC multiple times to take the controls.
As a 767 Captain with over 13,000 hours it is painful to watch this video seeing so many mistakes made and SOP not being followed. And after reading the Flying Mag article I can't for the life of me figure how these two ended up in an aircraft cockpit! The definition of professional is doing the right thing when no one is watching. Thank God no one else was killed. RIP.
As a completely unqualified person who can't fly and had no medical training, I feel qualified to say that the captain was impaired by drugs and alcohol. I suggest a review of training procedures and hiring practices by the company. I suggest digging up his corpse and charging it with murder.
@@jennydiazvigneault5548 You aren't even qualified to know standard NTSB investigations. They would have looked for that and they didn't mention it because it was not a factor.
@@glennquagmire3258 I would have to agree. Every crash involves a toxicology report done on all of the pilots. Nothing was mentioned in the investigation as a factor.
@@glennquagmire3258 I'm qualified enough to know a flight plan when its filed, and how to follow it. Your flight hours means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as far as I'm concerned. Your NTSB "investigation" into John Kennedy Jr., as well as TWA flt. 800, shows that, at best, your FAA is comprised of criminals.
Oh @ Stratoleft. Lulz... you’re just showing your inexperience.
Flight plans in IFR flight are mostly for basic intentions and in case of communication failures.
You accept your IFR clearance, and then enroute you ask for or are cleared different things.
The type of approach you do is never in the flight plan. Usually only the arrival STAR is... which can be for multiple runways or if the runway changes or you might get recleared a different STAR or put on vectors for an approach.
It’s when you are cleared the approach that you have to comply with that clearance provided you’ve accepted it in the form of a readback.
So fly heading XXX to intercept the localizer, cleared ILS 6 circling 1 was the clearance he should have complied with.
Not in the flight plan whatsofucking ever.
Stick to flight simulator.
Controller: cross DANDY at 1500.
Captain: Cross DANDY at 200.
That sounds about right.
Before I pilot my next flight I'm going to take some flying lessons.
Except you are going to need to trust a pilot to teach you to be one.
@@Chevy3278 My doctor was trained by a doctor.
Me too bro
Why? Lessons are a ripoff!
How did either of them become pilots? I mean at least the SIC was acting captain for 45 minutes of his life before he reached retirement
I am reminded of an old saying: Takeoffs are optional, but landings are mandatory. These two should have stayed on the ground.
Someone told me that it was 10% getting it up in the air, 20% keeping it up in the air, and 70% getting the plane back on the ground in one piece. It used to be that most anybody could get a driver's license but only a few could their pilot's license; now it seems like most anybody can do both!
@@janfuger1517 A license is not a guarantee of ability!
The sloppiness and incompetence of these two pilots is astounding. Thankfully, no one else was hurt.
After yelling "Airspeed" 2 or 3 times to no effect, maybe he should have just slammed the throttles forward himself.
Kinda reminded of UA FLT 173, flight crew kept trying to tell the captain they had fuel problems while he was trying to diagnose another issue. They ran out of fuel over a populated area near a airport.
Coulda shoulda......
The SIC had extreme difficultly flying the plane and had no business touching anything.
Where do these people come from and how do they get jobs? Just mindblowing...
More common than many realize - last fall a biz jet over ran runway at Greenville SC broke in two - crew fatals, pax serious injuries. Pilot was technically not certificated for that a/c.
Mutual admiration society is in full force with these two. I hope I don't fly with their equals.
@@andyburk4825 IT was a falcon 50, beautiful aircraft, ignorant crew, however RIP
@@naughtyUphillboy the video of the crash shows it's a lear.....tip tanks.
@@naughtyUphillboy Why rest in peace? Thank goodness they did not kill anyone else.
9:03
Tower: "You gonna start that turn?"
Captain: "Ah... unable. Can we try the approach again please?"
Minor impact on your ego, much less of an impact on the ground. Two lives saved by one simple admittance that you screwed up.
i was curious if they could make a left turn around to runway one; i think the copilot would have had to ask the Capt if he can see the runway from his side of the cockpit; .. but he just wasn't comfortable; I feel bad for the young co pilot though
I come back every so often ; i have to with this flight because i get the feeling that flying every plane is a different experience. This is probably the case with a small jet like this one. But it's just a little too big to pull off a Tomcat stunt (fighter jet). I only have Cessna experience which to me is like being inside an angry mosquito
The SIC knew he had no business flying that aircraft and probably suspected that the "captain" didn't either.
Go around! Jesus. They aren't flying a glider. If sufficient fuel, go someplace easier.
DumbledoreMcCracken No place is “easier” for a momo like this captain. He had a history, apparently.
Too bad the SIC didn't have a qualified TIC.
So many fuckups in soo little time... if there was anything left of that captain, they shouldve pulled a toxicology report
That is quite possibly the exact reason for this incident.
That was my first thought , was this captain impaired or intoxicated? It certainly seems he was
The tox reports came back clean... this was pure, unadulterated, incompetence - from both of them. The SIC had over 450 hours in a Lear and he still couldn't hold a heading or altitude? Whomever checked these two out was also criminally incompetent.
@@steveburton5825 he held a heading just fine. His captain told him conflicting crap. Maybe we should pull a toxicology report on *you*
@@ivanabcdefg9375 You're beyond help if you can't even follow a youtube video...
A lot of confusion in the cockpit, and a captain not qualified as a Lear instructor. Tragic and totally preventable.
I am in aviation but not a pilot, after watching this and reading quite a few of the comments I think the lack of cockpit communication, and obvious distraction from the left seat was very likely caused by texting. The video reminded me of my vain attempts to navigate and land the Lear in MS Flight Sim in the late 90s after 3 successful Cessna 172 landings.
This is such a strange case. It's almost as if the Captain wanted this outcome.
no, he was likely imparied to some degree and thought his shit-hot, last minute antics would save the situation.
@Anton Zuykov - The question is then how the hell did he get his pilot's licence and type certification rating (not to mention a job with that company)?
SkylineToTheSeaAndMe No
@@Sovereign_Citizen_LEO Did he????
Nobby Barnes Pathetic crybaby toddler 😂😂😂
When the known course of the Lear was bringing them to within visual range of two other airports it is shocking to hear such little regard was placed upon their approach.
This appears to be more of suicide and murder on the captains part.
I had this feeling too, watching and listening to this. Like everything was going according to his plan. *shivers*
That's what I thought as well. Just like MH370
@tinwoods Or a very smart one.
These guys had no business in that plane. I am a former Naval Aviator, and flew the F-14. I flew a Citation III with a former Air Force F-4 pilot. We always went by every check list, double checked each other, and always determined who was driving and who was backup, before we lit the fires
Learjet 35 crash in san San Diego this week is eerily similar.
What sort of 'state' was this Cap in? Impaired?
@@alleycatvietnam Good article, thanks for posting that link!
@@alleycatvietnam OMG! These pilots were a disaster. Their records speak for themselves! I encourage everyone to read this article.
@Ranger.Infantry At no stage did ATC give instructions to turn downwind.
@Ranger.Infantry No probs, but if what you say was said, wasn't actually said ('turn downwind') then your 'joke' pretty much falls flat. It just becomes 'manufactured'.
My thoughts/question also. Aside from the violation of a bunch of rules, he didn't know how long the flight was going to be from the start. I'd say he made many poor decisions before even launching. The impairment could have been anything from drugs to a massively concerning issue away from the cockpit, based on listening to this. His 2 weeks prior to the accident flight would have been revealing.
Thats just scary knowing that guy was somehow a licensed pilot.
had to have been intoxicated.
@@andytaylor1588 I think it was a suicide mission...the guy had given up. The SIC should have called a mayday and attempted to land the thing himself after knocking the "captain" out somehow.
I though both of those things as well. What the fuck. So weird. Wish there was analysis as well! Crazy.
not no more is he a licensed pilot
@@ldlink3935 sic had NO control whats so ever with plane 40second before crash plane was all over the place durning the off #6 approach.
Wow! just listening to this video only I'm struck by the amount of confusion/uncertainty and lack of situational awareness on the part of this Captain. Anyone know if he was ultimately confirmed as impaired??? My first thought was the guy knew he was impaired and didnt want to assume command. FO seems to know they are in trouble and hand off control to the Captain - but Captain refuses (?!)
This video leaves out a ton of cockpit recordings and details. There was nothing wrong with the Captain. He was just distracted and busy trying to show the copilot how to fly the plane the whole time. The copilot had a very terrible training track record, failed multiple tests and crashed the plane twice on approach in the simulator, basically failed everything and that's why he was only authorized to call out instruments. In the simulator it was noted that he had a hard time just simply maintaining airspeed. Instead of realizing this kid is terrible at flying the plane and taking the controls back, the Captain tried to make him fly it anyways. When the Captain finally took controls, for some reason he still attempted to land on runway 1 even though they were in no position to to do. He stalled it and crashed.
@@SOLDOZER OK - I'll accept your premise. Bottom line - total loss of situational awareness by the captain - - FO seems to know they were in trouble when he suggests handling of command to the captain - captain ignores the FO's request (for reasons you suggest that he was too busy "training" or helping the FO????)
The most unprofessional flight crew I ever heard of. Lots of lessons to learn from this one.
Haha you wrote this months before that Pakistan flight 8303 - u should look that one up. They werent as arrogant but seemed just as inept
This company must be desperate for pilots.
They zigzagged back-and-forth, deviating from the flightpath multiple times, violated airspeed requirements multiple times, ignored altitude instructions, ignored radio frequency instructions, failed to circle properly for approach to runway 1. This flight was doomed from the start. Fortunately, no one else was on the plane.
So much is wrong with how this flight is conducted. It's hard to know where to begin. These pilots had no business flying. No CRM, no company procedures, unqualified FO, unprofessional (possibly incompetent) captain, no proper radio communications. I mean where do you begin?
How could the pilot not realize he was heading down to the ground rapidly, the footage reveals it was a clear day?
Not a pilot, but the ATC talks so quickly but I guess if you know what your doing it's easier to comprehend what is being said, but do they talk that fast because they are extremely busy. Kinda seems like the problem with doctors prescriptions, in that the speed-talking increases chances of miscommunication. Just like sloppy hand writing.
@@toddlavigne6441 - Yeah, controllers in the NYC area are extremely busy. And you're correct, as a pilot, you're used to a a stream of information coming rapidly from ATC, and if you're head is in the game and you're not impaired, it's not a problem. I doubt this incompetent PIC ever even glanced at the approach plate for Teterboro before flying into some of the busiest airspace in the world.
Thanks for the info. How can someone who appears to be this incompetent
ever get their license/ approval to fly this small jet? Seems as though this accident should never have happened.
@@toddlavigne6441 The SIC made the worst mistake: *he* was flying (whether he "should have been" or not isn't relevant) and *he* confirmed the turn but *failed* to exercise it, which led to the immediate loss of lift due to altitude loss via the abrupt low speed turn; resulting in the stall, roll to inversion; and the final brutal crash.
thanks for the feedback....terrible crash
Jesus! What this captain did is criminal.
He should receive the death penalty! Oh wait......
What FAR did he violate? They were operating under part 91 by the way.
@@ronwilliams357 He was beyond incompetent. He was not fit to be a captain at all if you simply watched the video. He didn't run any checklist, he gave wrong information to the SIC, and ignored the SIC at times. And you're asking "wHat FAR dId hE vIoLaTe?"
Reminds me of a guy that worked for Skycraft in the 1980s. Won't mention his name but he was a total know-it-all. I could see him doing something like this. How he ever got and kept his job was always beyond me. Some just slip through the cracks.
Talk about being miles behind the aircraft. Incredible that they would even be in in such a high performance aircraft.
Jeebus cripes, wtf! No adherence to company policy, not complying with ATC, no situational awareness... no wonder they lawn-darted the Lear. There is no room nor time for that garbage in aviation especially in a high performance jet. Everything happens a lot faster which means you are in serious trouble much faster. Glad they didn't have any passengers or kill anyone on the ground.
Thank God that Captain was not controlling an Airbus A380 or any large commercial aircraft.
For god so loved the world, that he crashed this plane.
a380 wudda been gtfo
At least the big planes have auto land....
@@markh1427 Thank you god for all the plane crashes - Amen - cora madonda massondanda (that's typing in tongues).
@@markh1427 So does the Lear. I'm almost certain this plane can land itself.
I’ve done this approach many times, it can be a can of worms if you don’t brief it. These guys didn’t do any briefings or follow SOP’s do Darwin Award it is.
I used to do this approach when I flew out of TEB, I can’t believe what they must have been seeing. The approach is tight enough even when you make that normal turn but to do it like a mile away is insane
Gregg Re no it’s very doable as long as you make that turn from the fix and fly around the MetLife stadium.
Completely the PIC's fault. This incident clearly demonstrates that there is absolutely no tolerance for not following procedures. That's why it exists...
This is sobering. I've seen the NTSB videos of security camara footage. There are at least 5 angles to the crash... shocking.
No professionalism at all here. I believe the captain must have been super distracted about something not associated with flying that day.
He was checking TH-cam for landing procedures.
he was doing blow in the cockpit
A student pilot who gotten to the point of soloing has more comprehension of flying than these guys did.
I've experienced pilots of all hours and experiences that have egos and worse off complacency. An instructor that had complacency and "flight school pressure" ended my flying. Situations become routine and people become lazy. Okay for flight sim and video games. NOT okay for real life. It ends in tragedy or disappointment.
I just kept asking "why?"
You and me both, buddy.
Reading about the incident in Flying magazine it looks like even the captain wasn't qualified to occupy the seat he was in. Both pilots had multiple failed check rides.
Read the accident report. Both were properly qualified. And you can retake a checkride if you fail.
@@kewkabe The SIC was rated a 0 out of 4 in his training and crashed multiple times in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments.
I can't imagine not using at minimum a short verbal checklist with another crewmember present. Mindblowing. Checklists are drummed into ANY pilot by the time he/she has soloed their first single engine propeller airplane. I don't get it.
it's called a god complex
Wow, it's like the pilot never flew a plane before. He did nothing the controllers asked him to do. How bizarre how bizarre.
The Captain was not flying the plane, the SIC was. And the SIC had a terrible training record, failed almost everything and crashed twice in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments.
Good addition to the airboyd vids.
How did this guy get to be Captain?
Seems he just added a stripe.
@@NetCerpher or two..
Sporty's just sells four-stripe epaulets for $20 a pair.
Reading the CVR transcripts of this reminds me a lot of the Air Florida crash in DC.
Both captains were about equally as incompetent & had first officers that were frustrated/intimidated by them.
Awful, rest in peace. This went wrong from takeoff to crash. Even though it was complete lack of situational awareness, this was an instant missed approach once the realized they were lined up incorrectly a mile out. Puzzling.
Makes me wonder how many tragic accidents could have been avoided if only the pilot swallowed his pride instead of trying to pull off a miracle to save face. Generally speaking, I think many pilots have huge egos, thinking they are the smartest person in the cockpit, maybe some are, but everybody makes mistakes, these accident videos are proof of that.
While I agree with pretty much all the comments I've read, I'm going to add one more thing. (Forgive me if somebody already said this, and I just didn't see it.) ATC bares some responsibility here too. They are one link in the chain. Ever heard a controller say something like, "Too far left/too low for a safe approach, execute missed approach. Fly heading XXX, Climb and maintain X thousand. Contact Approach, 123.45?" Teterboro Tower is a RADAR facility, and at some point should have told the crew they were no longer in a position to safely circle to runway 1. At the point when the tower controller asked if they were going to start their turn, he should have instead told them to break it off, give them some climb out instructions, and sent them back to approach to try again.
totally makes sense! the controller was probably more interested in other trivial things than landing that jet.ATC people have blood in their hands but they probably were not even in the NTSB investigative radar.
Wow, that takes incompetence to another level altogether.
Lesson number one!!! Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. They got behind the airplane and failed to break the error chain. Then they paid for it.
At no point was the Captain ahead of this aircraft. Poor souls. RIP.
Thanks for this. I vote for as many as you can so we can learn from others mistakes.
I am not a pilot but I clearly understood the controller's instructions. This crash should never have occurred.
''We're still over Mexico'' - Captain
Remember that first day in flight school when you heard "Stay AHEAD of your aircraft? THIS is what happens when you're way behind the curve and have lost almost all SITNESS. Making a turn like that is OK in your 182 on the short final into 27 at Oshkosh...not so much in a Lear.
TakeDeadAim - No, a turn like that in any airplane is not ok on short final. Many stall/spin accidents occur on short final, low & slow, with flaps & gear hanging out, while overshooting the runway center-line. One thing I remember well from early training is my wonderful, old, former military instructor practically yelling at me "NEVER, EVER bank that much on downwind to base or base to final!" While yanking the yoke out of my hands and banking back to the right. I still, thankfully, hear him to this day on many approaches.
A turn like that is what it looked like Jack Roush tried to do when he crashed his jet at OshKosh. The approach looked more like Roush was trying to show-off, lucky outcome.
I'm just a private pilot but the dreadful "flying" here is thankfully very rare. When ATC give a pilot an instruction that has to be complied with unless an emergency is declared. Ignoring the "Captain" for a moment, the SIC had no business to hold that position on that flight if he wasn't capable of completing it to a safe and successful landing. As for the "Captain" ... he had no business to be in charge of that flight .. or any other flight ... the SIC should have had enough experience to take control of the aircraft ... to override the idiot "Captain" ... unbelievable,
The SIC was in control of the aircraft for all but the last 15 seconds. And no you don't fight for control when you're in a stall 400 feet AGL.
For me, this highlights the requirement for a legal obligation upon airlines to pair junior/inexperienced pilots with experienced pilots with an excellent track record.
And this exact same accident repeated itself on Dec. 27, 2021...
As a non flyer, it staggers me that ATC rattle off instructions so quickly.
In any other environment, if your goal is to be understood, you speak slowly and clearly.
Just seems to increase pressure in the cockpit, at the very least it seems unhelpful
xackly!
You get used to it as a pilot and can rattle it back just as fast.
This how things are in a busy airspace if you cant handle it dont fly near nyc
Thank you for having the CVR it really adds a lot and I love the narration 🌟 New subscriber here
There is no way either these two people should have been at the controls of this aircraft, they displayed no airmanship whatsoever, from a retired Captain!
In WHAT FUCKING WORLD do you fly an airplane like a Learjet and not recite necessary checklists, unbelievable!
lots of wrong and paid the price... sad.
Not a pilot, here (and I'd probably crap myself flying thru any part of NYC airspace) but, it doesn't look complicated, I bet even I could do it. Fly to TORBY, turn right til you see the big stadium, turn left after the big stadium to get a visual on the runway, hand the controls back over to the guy who actually knows what he's doing to put it on the ground. Did I miss something?
some things the FAA/tower can take from this. they failed to follow many instructions. after the 3 rd failed instruction. perhaps tower could have said sir I am declaring a pan pan for you. climb maintain 2,000 feet. and then vector them in very closely and get them back onto the localizer and get them back on the ILS etc . that might have been the only way to avoid this.
The problem is approach/departure/Tower is always hella busy . but as Isaid after the 3rd order/instruction. id be worried
This X Controller concurs. Well stated..
I think that may be asking too much of the ATC - that is one hell of a crowded airspace and it's probably all they can do to keep 'em from running into each other. Also, it would be a mistake to judge ATC too narrowly, solely based on the transcriptions to/from the Lear because in the existing wind conditions there were probably many other aircraft having similar difficulties holding to the directed course, altitude, etc. They likely had their hands more than full handling general aviation as it was.
@@chuckschillingvideos Yes. I have personally overlooked situations due to higher volume. It really was a pilot problem. If the transponder was and it probably was then TCAS would help with conflicts. I think I will reserve any statements until I get my eyes on the NTSB report and findings. Thanks for the input.
Uh.... towers don’t declare pan pans.
They can just give the punishment vectors and go from there. Tower should have cancelled approach or landing clearance and said to go around
@@Bartonovich52 towers and ATC have declared emergencies for ppl all the time. they do it for VFR only pilots getting stuck in IMC. plus engine issues over the water. nicko's wings is perfect example they declared an emergency for him when he had engine problems
Great video, maps and narration!
Ugh heartbreaking. Never push a bad approach...
Not heart breaking at all. Now if these two idiots had killed other that would be. They won't be around to do that and that is good.
I'm not a pilot, but even if they had managed to land safely at Teterboro, wouldn't there have been enough done and documented to get them both grounded and/or fined?
Nope.
If they landed safely they would not get anything more than a "bonehead" mumbled by ATC.
Can you imagine how messy that cockpit coordination was? That’s sad
Yes.
It was the surveillance video that cemented it.
Not sad. So glad they died and no one else.
@@ohwell2790 Can't use the word glad in any respect. Especially for the SIC... poor bastard.
@@MrFg1980 "cemented it"... that there's funny!
Was the SIC incapable of flying the jet himself? Thought by the time you were sitting in the cockpit of something like a Learjet that you’d have enough hours to know file/review your flight plan prior to depart, know how to fly your plane, know how follow simple ATC instructions, and know how to land. Just WTF.
Yes, he was type rated and proficient. It was company policy to have him only doing monitoring duties but legally he was allowed to fly.
SIC had a terrible training record, failing almost everything and had a record crashing planes in the simulator. That's why he was only authorized to call out instruments. Instead of just calling out instruments, Captain bonehead had him flying a real plane which he also almost crashed. When Captain bonehead took over they were way off course and he still tried to bank hard and still land on Runway 1. Only they had no speed, he stalled it and POOF!
WHen I was in the Air Force I caught a ride in a chase place (something like that) for F-15's from the base anyway it was a great flight but the SIC was new and nervous I dont think he ever landed one. Anyway he asked the pilot to take the controls about 1 minute from landing the pilot refused and told him he could do and talked him to landing which he did.
But man watching this made me realize how short life is. that plane is a rocket too , taking off and landing
Hundreds of miles away????what the hell?
the findings were bs! philly isnt even hundreds of miles from teeter/ proves he was on sumthin
@@333anders6 did they release tox results?
@@notthefather3919 yeah and he WASNT the father
@@333anders6😐
@@notthefather3919 totally sure they did but ive not researched it
Right now I am sitting at max 1 mile from that runway. I am from the town that overlooks TEB and the sound of those jets is the sound of home. The plane crashed at the DPW in Carlstadt and damaged a factory/warehouse, fortunately with no one killed.Those two fools could have killed many in the towns on the other side of Route 17.
I also read that the PIC wasn't cleared to fly the Lear either.
The dude was a SIC-0. Had no business at all doing anything but sitting there.
I have no idea how he could have died considering he was at least 50 miles behind the aircraft.
Didn’t know how long the flight was since he asked for higher altitude and wondered why they said approach and runways in use. All the while trying to teach and monitor this kid what sounds like basic flight maneuvers.
Had no situational awareness on the approach-even just tune up an NDB and watch the needle on the RMI.. you’ll know exactly where you are in relation to it-never mind the moving map I’m sure he had.
Not aware of the descent profile. Every good jet pilot knows 1000 feet/3 miles instinctively.
Not listening to his SIC who is getting nervous, completely helpless, and wants you to take control.
And finally... trying to salvage a bad approach by hot dogging a high performance aircraft rather than fling missed, collecting yourself, rebriefing, and attempting again.
The Actions of a mad man ,He took the second in command with him
WTF, capt was drunk. I knew I didn't want to watch this thing - avoided clicking it for weeks. How can he say we're doing it when no attempt is made, then both totally forgot about "lawn darts at the end." I've done circling in MD-80s at JFK and can tell you ATC has no patience for this. After 2 years I am going to amend my remarks -- in the wake of a similar L-35 crash at Gilespie, CA -- to say that ATC probably should have told them to go around when they went less than a mile out and still had not started the circling maneuver. They MIGHT have lived if they woke up to what was going on as they never established a stabilized approach and it only got worse throughout what they did.
The tox reports came back clean on both of them. They were both doing their best Leo DiCaprio imitation of being a pilot.
geezus christopher, shame on the management. And I place no blame at all on ATC. If anything they were a little too patient with this crew.
Definetily not doing their best.
@@steveburton5825 Leo, that’s exactly what I thought. Must have thought the SIC would carry him through. SIC at best knew he was over his head, and as soon as the PIC touched the stick, boom!
What was left of them to do tox tests ? Be fkn vaporised into mist
It's amazing how many planes crash because of a stall, almost all of them could have been avoided if they had only watched their airspeed. If I was a pilot, I think that would be my number one obsession.
Keeping a close watch on your airspeed would make you a very safe pilot.
You can stall at any airspeed. You clearly have zero experience and just another keyboard pilot.
The problem started when captain thought they were hundreds of miles away and never caught up, then found the true stall speed trying to salvage the approach. Good vid of to much complacency and a true shortage of qualified pilots.
Maybe the problem started when the captain got into the cockpit. Not disagreeing with you. How could he think they were hundreds of miles away when he should’ve known the distance from the get go? Maybe he was being cocky. Being cocky cost 2 lives and damaged families.
@@jugheadjones5458 Cockpit voice recordings left out of this video, this is discussed. The Captain had no GPS, the SIC told him he was wrong and offer Captain the use of his iPad.
THAT WAS A FUCKED UP LANDING AND IT WAS TIME AT 8:38 TO ADMIT THE MISTAKE AND GO AROUND !!! AND TRY THE LANDING AGAIN WITH THE MORE CAPTAIN IN COMMAND AND HEAD IN THE GAME. NO MORE TIME NOW FOR THAT GO AROUND. IN HEAVEN - THESE 2 WILL BE PRACTICING GO-AROUNDS FOR ETERNITY.
Thank God this wasn't a passenger jet flight
This whole time I was thinking it was hard IMC. Looked like a perfect day. What a shame, it’s too bad some lessons are only learned this way.
No checklists? This guy was a cowboy.
And neither bothered with the check list? Then it was inevitable. I drove past there 2 weeks later and while passing the airport, briefly turned my head, taking a quick glance, thinking about what had just happened. It gave me a sickening chill.
No doubt both pilots were staggeringly incompetent. However, the ATC does not come out of this well. At any given point ATC could have slowed down and checked that the PIC was aware of the circle to runway 1 procedure and understood it. It was clear very early on that PIC had no understanding of this procedure. It was also abundantly clear to any observant ATCO that this aircraft was consistently being badly flown, and should have spotted straight away that something was amiss after repeated failures of PIC to read back instructions properly. So while ATC cannot be directly blamed it is a fair assumption that they were a factor in this accident. This flight was crying out for a go around instruction from ATC.
Totally agree! When the SIC failed to read back instructions numerous times, ATC should have stepped in and confirmed the turn. Looks like the man flying the plane was 100% certain he was to line up with runway 6 not 1.
No you're wrong. I'm an FAA controller and that's not how ATC works. They were flying under IFR so they were instrument rated and can accept instrument approach clearances, which they did. If a pilot is not familiar with a procedure they tell ATC they're unfamiliar with it and we give them a different approach. ATC was zero factor in this accident, as the NTSB also concluded.
Agree they are to blame! But who is going to hold them accountable, not the NTBS. That controller has blood in his hands
@@kewkabe of course you would say that you are all in collusion and covering for each other, typical government entities. Those controller have blood in their hands n should have been held accountable.
This is very likely the captain’s fault for not taking controls due to the second in command not capable of this hard left turn at too low an airspeed. Things happen rapidly in jet flight vs a prop plane. This clearly seems to be the captain’s fault.
I'm not even a pilot but these guys were lost in space.
Chilling to listen and see it happen
I think US speakasfastasyoupossiblycan air traffic controllers are partly to blame. No other country speaks as quickly in the air. Air traffic into some British airports is much more congested than in the US, but the controllers speak *carefully* and *slowly* and *precisely* and require properly read-backs...I think such communication leads to better comprehension and better compliance by pilots...and better safer flights than in the US. I have no idea why American controllers all seem to want to speak so quickly in such a safety-critical environment.
I respectfully disagree. I have ferried aircraft from parts of Europe back to the US and European controllers are no better when it comes to instruction.
@@davidwarkentin9848 you may have a *few* examples of less good European controllers, but the US problem is endemic across the US. speakasfastasyoupossiblycan US air traffic control *cannot* be correlated with the safe conduct of flight and it appears to have grown up as a macho thing that only happens in the US. Why hasn't the FAA dealt with this?
I can't speak for European controllers (and your comment is a total generalization anyway, since there are bad European controllers, and bad American controllers as well), but otherwise I totally agree. Some of these NYC Metro controllers seem totally bored of their jobs, disinterested, speak to fast, many have an accent, don't annunciate clearly, speak in a monotone voice, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure this is true to some extent of AT Controllers around the world. There's always great ones, and always bad ones, and everything in between.
Student pilot here (USA). We need recurring training for everyone on freq. Clear enunciation, pace and volume that place emphasis where it belongs go a long way to helping the listener understand. Maintaining a relaxed, friendly demeanour is a Human Factors aspect of comms that also increases the effectiveness of speech. Any trace of negative emotion can trigger an emotional response, which impairs thinking. Training in maintaining relaxation in pressure situations will also reduce risk. There is enormous room to improve.
@Box of Rocks congestion creates great time pressure. they all know the formula and even when the transmission is not perfectly clear, the brain fills in the missing gaps because the formula carries a lot of the meaning.
For example:
"and the rockets red glare the boms bursting in air gave poroof thrtought hte nifgght that our flafg was stil there"
can you sing the tune for those words? If so you got the message even though the expression of it was not perfectly clear. same thing happens with the radio. true, it sounds macho (but only because that is incidentally the culture; they aren't doing it *to be* macho, they do it *because they already are*) , and true, it's unnecessary (it's just a very routine activity; so that tends to create shortcuts), and it sounds like showing off (anytime someone is really good at a high pressure, high status, high visibility job their ego gets involved, even if it's not intentional). So all those things you mention are really happening but not for the reason you suggest. The point is the same though: too fast is counterproductive and the best controllers (like Kennedy Steve in New York) follow the model I suggest: they speak clearly, and not too fast, and sound like they are in a good mood. Having fun at work has been proven to improve productivity and creativity and job satisfaction.
After watching many of these crash videos,,it is clear that living near a airport is dangerous.
Stupid very stupid statement
Truly baffles me. Never were they ahead of the approach.
Let’s all talk as quick as possible and hope everything works out fine.
I'm an investigator by profession. I've been up in small planes for professional reasons. When there are not 2 pilots, I mention: "Not to jinx us, but if something incapacitates you, what do I do to keep this thing flying until someone else can help?" Based on this limited "training," even I could recognize the multiple errors. **Now I will be checking the NTSB for mention of the record of the pilot's employer prior to getting on the aircraft.** The full NTSB report is worse than the summary already linked: www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR1902.pdf
RIP. But there were errors not just on the flight. Like, when doing pre-employment record checks, if the previous employer does not respond -- you can hire the guy anyway. Period. (Clearly, at minimum the hire should be subject to continuing other methods to verify pilot history).
We all make mistakes. But both of these guys had a history... and most of us learn more quickly when we are held accountable. Instead they were passed on to another employer, who didn't particularly seem to care either.
Big difference going to Jets, and happens quickly. Yes PIC was incompetent.
Mind boggled, several calls by SIC for the captain to take the controls not even responded to!?!? They literally did everything wrong right up to impact - truly the mind boggles, how do you attain the experience and skill of flying an executive jet then so severely botch up what was at their level (experience not altitude) essentially a straight forward approach ?!
I think the Capt was on a suicide mission. How could anyone violate so many commands if he wasn't and surely he had flown this route many times.
Captain was not flying the plane. The SIC was.
Just curious. Shouldn't have tower cancelled approach clearance at 9.00. It was obvious that they were too late to circle right. Asking for a friend.
I am surprised the military's flight anomaly detection system did not call for intervention.
Excellent NTSB explanation.
They were civilian, not military.
The video certainly eliminates the need to ask if anyone survived it...
The captain was there in body, but not in mind.