Honestly where to companies find people like this? How do people like this even pass private pilot checkrides? Mindboggling accident and behavior from both pilots.
I mean SIC shouldn't have been flying the plane, this is completely and fully on the captain and he clearly should not have passed anything as he consistently made very poor decisions during the flight.
pyromcr I failed couple evals in flight school but never failed any checkrides. Only problem I had was not learning at a fast enough pace. So glad I made it and never became like this crew.
@Agent J --I worked for some crooked managers that even put a life insurance on their name on mediocre pilots that could crash later. Hey, they could even skip maintenance so you could crash, and they could collect the insurance. Managers can murder you in USA and other capitalist countries. I was not insured they told me. 2 others were.
Just because he was Asian?? He was Phillipino/American. But he told the Captain to take over many times, and then warned him that he was letting the speed decay. He needed more practice on that lear 35. The captain was bad too by not telling him to start turning to side step to runway one. 5 miles out as required.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC i think best way to see this as captain does not have proper rest, or had a stroke, in that case for some reason sic decided to cover up for captain, and not reporting captain condition in time - was first fatal mistake, second fatal mistake was dropping control(probably panicked) when he understand that landing approach going wrong (he should go around instead, and report for captain condition).
Jared V definitely sounds like something was wrong. This guy was ignoring all kinds of issues. I'm not a pilot, but I've never seen one of these incidents where the pilots ignore or don't try to follow ATC instructions. The captain was Denzel in flight. The plane was nearly upside down when it crashed.
Wow, I agree the SIC must have been doing some major covering up. Of course by his tone and actions he wasn't ready. The Capt of that airship was not mentally or physically able to fly, that crash was catastrophic. Thank God no ground people were killed.
@Despiser Despised Remember this statement when your pregnant wife, sister, friend, whatever, makes it safely to their destination on an airliner 10 years from now because a captain who is a student right now learned from this captain's mistakes. Moron.
@Despiser Despised Lol, what? Educate yourself before commenting, our glorious military spends over 600 billion per year, if anyone is to blame for the circumstances of our "unborn progeny" it's our wasteful national defense budget and all the rich, well connected supported by special interest who line their pockets. These types of reports are crucial to understanding who, what, when, and why the issue occurred and most importantly to do all we can to prevent it
This just fuels more controversy. Nobody understands and respects the fact that millions of lives have been saved thru safety precautions across all fields of work, and transport, but one accident happens ....everyone's pointing fingers, and looking who to sue. It is pathetic. as a people we are pathetic. It is all about how to get more money. "I survived an aircraft collision, but that isn't enough. I want to get rich now because I went thru this" so pathetic.
RIP to the pilots. Captain was careless. Poor read back, did not follow ATC instructions, did not take controls when requested by SIC. Ignored multiple stall warnings. Did not go around. The SIC deserved a better fate.
Read thru the witness statements too. Eerily, After the initial charter landing, the one brother from the Van der Velde group, refused to fly again on that plane with those two pilots flying. They had a hard, scary landing apparently. I'm guessing the SIC did that landing against the rules. After the charity golf outing, the group rented a car and drove back to their return destination, and had told the pilots forget the return flight, you can go back without us. That should tell you something.
Transcript - dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=459847&docketID=60373&mkey=95175 It's not easy to read. It starts with chaos and gets worse from there. How do you think that you're 200 miles from the airport when you're 50 miles from the airport?
Nearly the exact same thing happened to a Lear 35 in New Hampshire in the late 90s. The captain was flying in the right seat with the SIC in the left seat. They never configured the instruments for the approach and never briefed it. They didn't find the plane for 3 years as it crashed in a heavily wooded and mountainous area.
Captain Sounded Arrogant...2nd in command knew he was over his head ..tried handing control over to Captain.....A lot of bad decisions caust them there lives....very Sad...
That was one incompetent captain. Was he even awake?? The SIC was clearly overwhelmed, and radio instructions were merely repeated without being understood. I wonder if they even went over the plan and what they were expected to do. The SIC was the VICTIM here.
@@billyhomeyer7414 No, they both murdered themselves. The F/O had no business flying, he was only supposed to monitor. The captain royally messed up in even more ways.
These are so useful... and humbling. They were both so far behind a very fast aircraft. Only way to catch up would've been to do a missed and regroup. Probably captain's ego, or by that time panic, prevented it. I have to wonder about the captain's real abilities and experience level, and the pressures that might have caused both of them to go beyond their quals. So sad to see them on the surveillance camera, inverted, about to hit, and imagine what they might've been thinking at that moment. A strong lesson for the rest of us.
These pilots were *way* behind the airplane, here. This is one of those cases where all we can do is try to learn something from what happened. I learned two things: 1. If I ever get this far behind the airplane, ask for a vector/hold somewhere where I can get my head back in the game, and 2. I need to have some sort of method of figuring out when I need to ask for 1.
Dusty Rider I learned this the hard way on an instrument checkride. Anytime you feel like it’s happening to fast ask to bail out of it. Don’t think “oh I can get it done”. I tried and it didn’t work out. Now I’ll probably bail out of the approach faster than I should but I won’t let myself get that far behind again.
For those interested I reccomend you go to the NTSB accident docket and look at all the investagative documents. Really interesting and stuff not mentioned in this video animation.
@@Nicholas-f5Not so, it was the 3 passengers who initially chartered the plane who decided to drive back instead of taking a return flight after a rough landing in Philadelphia. They thought the jet was past its prime and didn’t trust it.
nope sic do coverups for captain condition, and in critical moment give up plane control to person, whom condition clearly does not allow to control a plane. it looks like sic was only pilot in condition suited to fly a plane.
All one can say is wow. Thank you NTSB for preparing this video. It was informative, insightful. and educational. Sad for SIC. WTH? to PIC. RIP N452DA. Even as a low time pilot, this violates every core of my IFR and cockpit mgmt training.
No checklists, captain pushing the SIC to fly a demanding approach in windy conditions in very busy airspace and SIC clearly is out of his depth are just two facets of this debacle that frustrates me. Captain exercised terrible judgment during this flight. Captain clearly should not have been in command of any aircraft that flies in busy airspace.
@ Joe Craven I would not even let him fly my paraglider. It was allready clear as fresh water, they couldn't make it, with that, by far to late, right turn. Then he underestimated that high bank left turn in a quite windy condition. They could be still alive, if the captain would not have been to proud to admit, he messed that up and decided to make a go around. A clear winner of the darvin award. Sadly he killed also the innocent SIC.
The negligence of the charter company is another aspect. They didn't include the manufacturer's recommended wind additives for airspeed into their SOP manual. I'm no pilot and sometimes too pedantic but I believe that having this table in the manual would be professional and pragmatic.
encinobalboa The PIC was completely incompetent in every aspect. He had no SA, no filing skills, puts an inexperienced SIC on a short leg into TEB and has him flying one of the hardest approaches out there. And finally, doesn’t take the controls when asked to. As far as I’m concerned, the PIC killed that copilot.
He didn't have GPS and refused SIC's offer to use his iPad. Despite that, he thought Teterboro, New Jersey was somehow HUNDREDS OF MILES from Philadelphia. The only tragedy is that this moron took down an innocent younger pilot in his ignorant arrogance.
Yes exactly should have done torby at 1,500 circled the other one and then proceeded to runway 6 as instructed he did not he was locked in to ILS at runway 6 not 1
They got behind in the flight and couldn't make up for the reduce amount of time they had to the airport. It all looked great on paper and the flight plan changed right of the git go and that started sequence. It's just a bunch of small things that came together. Identify the wrong airport doesn't help, miss the turn, then had to turn too tight. Who's got the controls, etc.
Excerpt from the Pilots wifes testimony : She recalled overhearing a speakerphone conversation between her husband and Mr. Alino on or around March 12, 2017, during which Mr. Alino said he refused to fly with Bill Wickens because Mr. Wickens was very rude and had told him during their last flight, "Alino you have no business flying a jet." Mr. Alino was upset by this and told the captain he was going to call in sick so he would not have to fly with Mr. Wickens. Mr. Alino did call in sick and Mr. Frost called another pilot, Paul Parthus, who traveled to New Jersey to meet Mr. Wickens and operate the scheduled flight.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC I am talking about Mr Alino, everyone in hear is blaming the PIC, yes he deserves the brunt of the blame but if you read into the backround of Mr Alino that guy had issues as well. There was a reason Bill Wickens said that " Mr Alino you have no buisness flying a jet" and he was right!
@@a914freakthe PIC is the one who let Alino fly the jet (which you agree he had no business flying) and then refused to take back controls until the flight was already doomed - and then he ignored the SIC's numerous calls for speed after telling him to monitor speed! The PIC is 100% to blame for this tragic, preventable accident.
I disagree: the SIC was in training, clearly, and was classified SIC 0, and the captain should have been doing pretty much everything. New pilots need training and guidance, and familiarization, and this crash is exactly why.
The SIC was actually much more aware of the situation than the PIC. I appreciate that he took the initiative by handing over the flight controls well before the point at which he was supposed to circle. The PIC didn't accept and was rather misleading than helpful when they needed to circle. SIC called out the airspeed multiple times after PIC accepted his second hand over. The PIC went on and performed a manouvre that doomed them.
i've done this same approach playing on the computer and it's super hard, and it's a damn game where I won't die and still go around 20 times when I try it.... calling that guy a captain is a bit of an overstatement I think.... couldn't read back instructions right, poor communication with SIC, doesn't follow company procedures, didn't take over the flight on approach when the SIC was not confident, didn't make sure all checklists were done, didn't do a pre-flight brief, didn't do an approach brief, didn't ask to be vectored into less congested space to do a brief, didn't call for a missed approach when it was clear they missed, crashed the damn plane...
I've flown this COUNTLESS times. It's barely a circle if you actually begin the "circle" at TORBY. This also doesn't reference the fact that in a tip tank Lear, you circle at flaps 20 and ref +20. These guys were circling at flaps 40 and at ref, so had considerably less stall margin than what is typically recommended. Small stall margin + steeply banked (and likely pulling) turns don't end well......
I am also a pilot and flew out of TEB for years, executing this approach many times. It is actually one of my favorites as it is super easy if you do like Patrick says. Turn at TORBY, head straight for MET LIFE, and put your wing on the 50 yard line to turn final... perfect line up every time and a great view right down the top of the stadium! I don't see how everyone is blaiming the FO... completely CA fault. FO tried numerous times to hand over controls and stated out loud he was not comfortable. CA was behind the game before they left PHL, filing for FL270? Thinking they were hundreds of miles away? WTF
Got a buddy who reviewed the audio for NTSB, said it's even worse to hear than to read. And you can hear their screams as they went down. Only a few select ATC clips have been officially released from this flight and I agree, I would like to hear the entire recording released.
When flying gliders, you are trained to avoid button hook approaches, basically last minute high bank turns to extend the pattern to lose altitude. There are no go-arounds for gliders, so altitude/airspeed management is key. I think preforming a missed approach for RNY 6 would have been a good idea. Prayers for the family.
Thank you for this presentation. you have gone to great lengths to portray a realistic and accurate chronicle of events and I wonder what would have happened if this was a successful landing. Would the airmen involved just chalk it up to a "hiccup" or would they understand the vast departure from normal procedures.
They don't want to discourage pilots for asking for help or vectors when they get 'lost' in this airspace. However I would like to see them get in serious trouble for not initiating a go around before attempting the last turn. I think modern large airliners will automatically report you to company if you attempt these types of maneuvers.
Cross control stalls are still an issue with GA. You get too close to the runway and the wind is pushing you through final forcing you to overcorrect. Instinct is to use rudder and aileron, sometimes in an uncoordinated manner to correct and at low speeds you can get into an uncoordinated stall, even when above stall speed (aerodynamically speaking the top wing stalls because of its higher angle of attack and the aircraft proceeds to roll the opposite direction) which can result in a stall/spin incident which at low altitude can be quite fatal. The FAA has finally mandated stronger unusual attitude recovery trading for Part 121 operators (simulators are now being reprogrammed for FULL STALL scenarios). Older training had us try to maintain altitude in a stall. That has now been revised to say that getting out of the stall is primary, regardless of altitude loss. But since these new rules don’t apply to Part 91/135 operators, not everybody is getting the message. If these guys had been trained correctly there’s a possibility they would’ve known to reduce the AOA, straighten out the aircraft, get it flying again and go around. Cleaning out the seat covers is much preferred to making a smoking hole in the ground. And for background, I have 7 type ratings and 16,000+ hours in the air. And I haven’t lost an airplane or a passenger yet.
Absolutely right on use of the rudder. When my pops taught me to fly he had me use zero rudder on base to teach that point. Blowing the center line he said although not a good base leg is fine , you may continue your same bank angle to center line or go around. If you use rudder in that situation to correct you are a complete fool he said. Of course rudder can be used safely but only after one understands what an accelerated stall is and how the rudder relates to it.
glad no one on the ground was hurt and honestly, glad those two arent flying anymore... who smashes in at 90+ degree of bank on a clear day....? admit you screwed up and ask for vectors to 1 for a visual approach
My guess is the loss of control initiated with airspeed decay due to the failure to increase power during the steep turn. Sounds like they completely forgot how to fly an airplane....wow.
Carlos Pulpo The full report had it down to the wind gusts, and the pilot failure to compute wind additives to the proper airspeed for the plane. So they had it banked over and the wind gusts from the wrong direction took lift away from the wings enough to stall it because they hadn't addded airspeed to compensate.
GNX157 exactly how it happened,it virtually keeled over ,too slow, too high a bank, increasing the stall speed, almost inverted the cockpit hit the ground, beautiful aircraft.Rip, from Maplewood NJ
The captain probably thought he is a professional acro pilot. Im pretty sure, he never tried that trick before. Even in less windy conditions, this last turn would have been a challenge.
You think this is bad, you should read the transcript. The PIC can't hardly get a word out without it being an expletive and the SIC had no business being anywhere near a seat on the flight deck. It is absolutely disgraceful that these guys were allowed to fly and terribly unfortunate that they died.
Sad occurrence. Unfortunately, this "Captain's" dilemma started way back when he thought he was much further from the destination airport than he actually was. This forced him, once he figured it out, (Lack of Situational Awareness) to act a lot faster than he was accustomed to. Oh those chain links of events that seem to inevitably lead to disaster. Sounds simple but he would have been better suited just going "missed" and regrouping his thoughts on that otherwise routine approach. May they both Rest in Peace!!
I know things happen faster in a Lear then what happens in the 172/182 I flew - but jeez. They should have known that it was going to be quick hop if they had any sense of positional awareness. Sounds like they were behind the hole flight and never even got close to catching up. I used to fly out of KMQS which is just west of the MXE VOR for the CAP. Things can get busy even in a small Cessna commo wise when flying on an IFR flight plan around here.
I'd be interested to know the Captain's experience level, time in type, total jet PIC/SIC experience, etc. I fly for a company who is similarly hiring low-time, inexperienced or post-retirement-aged pilots who have no business acting as PIC in Jet Aircraft, charter or otherwise. It's only a matter of time before someone gets killed and the ensuing lawsuits "sink" the company. And while the Captain must be (posthumously) full responsibility for this needless accident, a certain amount of "blame" must be assigned to the D.O., Chief Pilot, and/or Check Airman who signed off on his competency as PIC. (59 year old ATP, 12,000 hours, 5 type ratings, including LR-JET, still flying professionally)
What I was able to find about the Captain: SUNQUEST EXECUTIVE AIR CHARTER LLC ANNUAL PILOT EXPERIENCE SUMMARY Pilot: W. Ramsey Date: 06/24/2016 GENERAL EXPERIENCE Total Time: 6599.8 Multi-Engine: 5462.4 Turbine: 968.4 Turboprop: 1888.8 Pilot-in-Command: 5519.4 Simulated Instrument: 119.1 Actual Instrument: 2190 Night: 2816.4 Cross-Country: 5409.3 Day Landings: thousands Night Landings: thousands NORMAL CATEGORY AIRCRAFT TYPE: Ir-series Total Time: 805.3 Second-in-Command: 805.3 AIRCRAFT TYPE: be-400 Total Time: 163.1 Second-in-Command: 163.1
Xei Another "experienced pilot" that only knew Mild Maneuvering. Then tried Hard GRM and caused a disaster. Mild Maneuvering Maggots crashing all over. Im an Aerobatic CFI.
Rich Grant Congratulations’s for you. A competent pilot doesn’t get into a situation that requires exceptional skill to get out of. Your aerobatics training won’t get you out of a low altitude accelerated stall in a swept wing lear jet.
@@seandunn2062- But my aerobatics training teaches me not to do wild maneuvering at low altitude that I havent proved myself to be very good before. I only do aerobatics at over 3k agl. and depends what kind of maneuver. It is the MIld Maneuvering Maggots that try things they dont know too well. The ones that know acell stalls are not the ones that do them at low alt. WE KNOW BETTER BY EXPERIENCE. I bet that 6,600 hour Lear captain only practice Mild Maneuvering, tried a hard one-Crashed.. Same with other hard maneuvers. Like Turnbacks to Opposite Runway after engine trouble on take off. When I didnt know them I almost got killed on one. the engine had partial power so I stopped the turn and went to a low 300 agle downwind leg. I madly cursed my CFI for not teaching me that maneuver that i needed to know. Made him apologize and shamed him. He maggot fooled me and almost killed me while getting paid well. I dont put up with Crooks. I was a cop. The ones that dont want to practice that are the ones that try them when needed, do them wrong-- and crash. I teach 4 kinds of take off engine fails on initial climb. No accidents in 5k hours teaching. Too many Chicken CFI's teaching only Mild Maneuvering is the root of the LOC Crisis during Hard Maneuvering. Logical. Mild Maneuvering Maggots I call them. F them.
Was waiting for this to come out..... Can always go-around.... Amazing to see pilots ignore checklists and briefings; the lack of preparation for the arrival is frightening.... Not criticizing, just learning. Lucky they didn't kill anyone on the ground 😕 RIP
I honestly think he thought he was returning to Bedford MA, I say this because of this comment "I don't know what the # their thinking we're doin We're # hundreds of miles away man!
Way too many mistakes made on a routine flight with ATC instructions being exactly what you should expect. Makes me wonder if the captain knew his ability was impaired....
Wondering if it was possible to draw blood from the captain's body for toxicology. He was obviously not slurring or anything, but his judgement was SO poor, and that's often the problem with driving/boating/flying while intoxicated--the false sense of confidence.
Not sure how it was performed but apparently the toxicology report officially came back negative. The way the CVR transcript shows the PIC (and to a lesser extent the SIC) being overly concerned with getting their flight over in a rush (apparently not realizing it's already an incredibly short flight as-is) makes me wonder if he was mentally preoccupied with something else in his personal or professional life.
The fact the captains pilots licence was written in crayon on the back of a cigarette packet was the first clue he wasn't qualified to be in any plane!
so he probably believed that a circling maneuver when in minums could begin the turn like a standard traffic pattern, even below. Thinking he is hundred miles away and fly even higher, he definetely lost situational awareness; lack of familiarity with the airport circling approach procedures was his dead sentence.
Don't want to disrespect the dead but this captain should not have been in a cockpit, let alone being the captain. I think, both the pilots would've been unsafe behind the steering wheel of a car too. Shocking level of incompetence.
I hate hearing guys on the radio who sound like this guy. I used to fly with one, as his FO. I saved our lives once he wanted a route that would have been about 10 more minutes than the fuel we had. He kept telling me to relax. I asked ATC for a different clearance. Short flights in the Lear can be dangerous, and should also include a mention of which checklists you might be able to skip or cut short, if necessary, during the preflight crew briefing. This guy was so far behind the airplane it’s shocking! Poor FO must’ve been terrified.
I found this to be very educational. I never got my instrument rating and never flew in that area, but this video brings the factors to those operations to light pretty well. I'm curious if there was a toxicology report done on the captain on this aircraft. Beautiful aircraft, too.
What was the problem with that captain? He got them both killed. Wth? You could tell the FO wasn't sure of himself, why did the capt continually avoid taking the controls when requested to?
What gets me is that the NTSB can make suggestions only. The airlines or governments can do what they want with those suggestions. Maybe they should have more power so when something like this happens, they can put their foot down and say, “No more”!
The FAA regulates, the NTSB suggests, it's an interesting dynamic but unfortunately things only get done when the body count is high enough. I have much respect for the NTSB though, they do an amazing job.
@@nynphose separating diagnosis/recommendation (ntsb) from regulation (faa) ensures that nobody accuses the ntsb of making up new rules just for the sake of exerting authority. during the covid I am constantly amazed that governments take measures trying to safe lives while so many civilians think they are just messing with them for the hell of it
It could be noted that responses like "got it" or "copy" or "okay" are not proper communications protocol that signify acceptance of an ATC clearance. Obviously this captain was a pilot who was not a stickler for proper procedures. When you're a cowboy, sometimes you get bucked off your horse. If that horse happens to be an aircraft, getting bucked off is going involve a lot worse consequence than having to pick yourself up off the ground and getting back in the saddle. And if your're a pilot who prefers flying by the seat of your pants, you ought to save that for your days off when you can jump in your Taylorcraft and shoot touch and goes on your grass strip. Don't do it on your job in the left seat of a Lear in a busy New York terminal area.
Tim E. I’m not making excuses for them,,but if you were in the area THAT DAY, it was so windy, too slow too low too tight a turn gust of wind,,they lost it ,,it damned near welt inverted, I missed it by 15 mins or so,,I was across from the airport shopping, Then left the area, heard it on the radio, saw it on TV. from Maplewood nj
That one is like a short approach 180. This was a low, slow double swerve with steep turns to align. A low slow Double swerve on a Lear?? the maggot captain should be punched for that. That was an accelerated stall practice at 600 agl.
I don't think they had the procedure plates out or programmed into then nav gps. Worse yet looks like it was their first time there combined with no paper or gps map or chart showing the procedure. They also don't seem to of learned not climbing staying low for short flights is much faster.
These guys ever heard of a missed approach???? WTF . The ego of that pic not to admit they were behind the aircraft and go missed, got them both killed. Second-in-command shouldn't have been flying, however he had the responsibility as well to start a missed approach. I'd like to know if they were both current (6hits) with instruments. This should not have happened!
RIP to both pilots. But i'm totally shocked with the attitude of the Cap. The SIC was also inexperienced. "High bank left turn"..he tried to squeeze it in. I was taught if you are still far out, do an S-Turn to re-align the aircraft with the RWY (did this on my first solo). If you are too close, Go around. Never try to squeeze it in....many have gone!
Holy Twilight Zone Batman. What in the world could have been going on in there? When an air crew fails to respond properly more than once or twice like these guys did, can a ATC order them to do anything or ask what is the problem... you guys are screwing up? Is there anything that could have been done to wake these guys up before they crashed? When I say these guys I mean the pilot the copilot tried to hand over the control several times...
I remember that day, I was across from KTEB, at the NEW BALANCE STORE, sure was a win day day, straight down the runway, It happened 15 minutes later, then saw it on TV. from Maplewood NJ
Unbelievable. I'm speechless. The only 'silver lining'to this is they had no passengers & killed no one on the ground. Was this plane a charter / rental flown by hired pilots or ??? Must have been affected by fatigue, drugs or alcohol. I can't fathom otherwise.
Go to the docket and read the witness statements of the group who chartered the plane. They drove back after the outing because the one brother refused to fly on the plane again due to a hard scary landing on the initial flight down to the golf outing, so this could of happened with ppl on board but doubtful this scenario because the drop off was I think Boston, then Teterboro to park. Group told pilots to forget staying around for return flight, we're driving back.
@@GNX157 Gosh GN thx for digging that out of the report - it sure illuminates how / why this happened. My other question is what kind of rich idiots let a million (several?) $$$ plane be handled by such incompetent hands ? Any insights Sir ?
David A And they made several stops that day, & were returning to the roost, , It was a bad day, very windy, they were too slow, too low,,and too steep a turn, wind,,then lost it, darn near inverted, that was the only red LEAR 35, I’d ever seen,, YOY needed to have been in the area that day. from Maplewood NJ
Lear jets are a beast and not forgiving of rapid control at low airspeeds... once out of position like that... the sr should have called missed approach and out. Never try to save a bad approach...
Kobe Wild , were you in No that day? It was so freaking w I n d y , with gusts up to 50 + mph, they were in too TIGHT A TURN GUSTS , THEN LOST IT ,,DARN NEAR INVERTED.. Maplewood nj
Greg Caesar you should have been in the area that day, buy was it very windy, with high gusts,,they were too low, to high a bank angle, which INCREACES THE STALL SPEED, THEN LOST IT , THE NOSE & cockpit hit the ground first data , near inverted, I was in that area that day ACROSS from KTEB, I think there might have gusts near 60mph., but left 10 mins before.from Maplewood NJ
@Galileo7of9 yes, it was under pilot control. this simply means that all actuators respond nominally - the aircraft is behaving as per pilot inputs. you are thinking of "control" in the sense that the plane goes where the pilot wants it to go (i.e. not into the ground!) but it is the pilot's job to combine his intentions with the laws of flight physics to arrive at suitable control inputs.
I have quite literally flown Cessna 152s with my mates and it's been more professional than this. Absolutely mind boggling that pilots of this calibre are given jobs 🙄
It’s all about bank angle. At a 60 degree bank your stall speed increases by 40%. I would say he was close to that trying to not overshoot runway 1. Classic base to final stall. When you run out of altitude,airspeed and ideas all at the same time.
It was like he was trying to right all the mistakes made, in the last 15 seconds of flight. Also seemed as if all his flight training was for nothing, he clearly forgot everything he ever learned. Looks like a suicide more than a controlled landing. yet a terrible loss.
I think this is an accurate guess, judging by later reports (see below for links). The captain tried to make a late and violent course correction to final, through an area that was experiencing up to 30 mph wind gusts, and for which a low-level shear warning advisory had been issued. The steep bank at relatively low speed took him under stall speed, with no height to recover, and there's some indication that the plane almost flipped over before it hit the ground. An account of the NTSB report is here: eu.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2018/02/07/files-detail-last-moments-fatal-2017-teterboro-jet-crash/317380002/ Another report, here, patch.com/new-jersey/wyckoff/nj-man-was-co-pilot-learjet-crashed-teterboro states that "The NTSB found no drugs in either Alino [SIC] or Ramsey [Captain] and the voice recorder does not indicate that anything went wrong with the plane while it was on approach to Teterboro." The captain had at least 15 years' experience and had made thousands of landings. God knows what was going on in that cockpit.
@@innocentoctave You're right, my point is where was his training? Go around, he had to be aware that his flight path was deteriorating and there was no chance for a successful landing. My first 8 hours of flight (40 years ago) consisted of take off, and land in that field, take off, land on that gravel road, take off land in that meadow. Hell, I just wanted to fly, well years later what she taught me saved my life, an off field landing in a field that had previously killed a state trooper years before. If you don't have a plan you don't have a chance. Follow procedure. Stay calm. Keep flying the airplane.
@@seapilot4042 Obviously I'm guessing - nobody will ever know - but my impression is that the PIC was severely impaired by something: probably fatigue. I can't see any other explanation for a series of bad decisions and unexplainable mistakes, such as requesting an altitude that implied a much longer journey and then apparently believing that he was still 'hundreds of miles' away from the destination airport. Command given to the unqualified SIC - why? So the PIC could snatch some shuteye on what should have been an easy flight? The SIC repeatedly trying to return control to the PIC, with no response? By the time he resumes command, it's way too late. Marc Bennett has it right: too steep a bank angle in an attempt to make a very late turn to final raises the stall speed and he stalls. The crash looks like a rookie error: but to me the likeliest explanation is just that the PIC is resuming command in a big hurry and too late.
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Honestly where to companies find people like this? How do people like this even pass private pilot checkrides? Mindboggling accident and behavior from both pilots.
I mean SIC shouldn't have been flying the plane, this is completely and fully on the captain and he clearly should not have passed anything as he consistently made very poor decisions during the flight.
Why would the Captain not take the flight controls if the second in command was clearly asking them to?
pyromcr I failed couple evals in flight school but never failed any checkrides. Only problem I had was not learning at a fast enough pace. So glad I made it and never became like this crew.
I blame the incompetent captain 100%. He never intervened when it should have been clear to him that it was necessary.
@Agent J --I worked for some crooked managers that even put a life insurance on their name on mediocre pilots that could crash later. Hey, they could even skip maintenance so you could crash, and they could collect the insurance. Managers can murder you in USA and other capitalist countries. I was not insured they told me. 2 others were.
Attributable 100% to the Captain. Second pilot should not have been flying. RIP :(
Just because he was Asian?? He was Phillipino/American. But he told the Captain to take over many times, and then warned him that he was letting the speed decay. He needed more practice on that lear 35. The captain was bad too by not telling him to start turning to side step to runway one. 5 miles out as required.
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC i think best way to see this as captain does not have proper rest, or had a stroke, in that case for some reason sic decided to cover up for captain, and not reporting captain condition in time - was first fatal mistake, second fatal mistake was dropping control(probably panicked) when he understand that landing approach going wrong (he should go around instead, and report for captain condition).
was the captain drunk?! how do you not do any checklists or any inflight checks and think you're still safe, his mind had to have been altered.
Jared V definitely sounds like something was wrong. This guy was ignoring all kinds of issues. I'm not a pilot, but I've never seen one of these incidents where the pilots ignore or don't try to follow ATC instructions. The captain was Denzel in flight. The plane was nearly upside down when it crashed.
Wow, I agree the SIC must have been doing some major covering up. Of course by his tone and actions he wasn't ready. The Capt of that airship was not mentally or physically able to fly, that crash was catastrophic. Thank God no ground people were killed.
NTSB, Thank you for making this kind of very informative and well made videos.
@Despiser Despised Remember this statement when your pregnant wife, sister, friend, whatever, makes it safely to their destination on an airliner 10 years from now because a captain who is a student right now learned from this captain's mistakes. Moron.
@Despiser Despised Lol, what? Educate yourself before commenting, our glorious military spends over 600 billion per year, if anyone is to blame for the circumstances of our "unborn progeny" it's our wasteful national defense budget and all the rich, well connected supported by special interest who line their pockets. These types of reports are crucial to understanding who, what, when, and why the issue occurred and most importantly to do all we can to prevent it
This just fuels more controversy. Nobody understands and respects the fact that millions of lives have been saved thru safety precautions across all fields of work, and transport, but one accident happens ....everyone's pointing fingers, and looking who to sue. It is pathetic. as a people we are pathetic. It is all about how to get more money. "I survived an aircraft collision, but that isn't enough. I want to get rich now because I went thru this" so pathetic.
RIP to the pilots. Captain was careless. Poor read back, did not follow ATC instructions, did not take controls when requested by SIC. Ignored multiple stall warnings. Did not go around. The SIC deserved a better fate.
What the hell was going on in that cockpit? As someone else posted, I would like to hear the complete flight on the CVR.
no audio, but transcript available on the docket
Read thru the witness statements too. Eerily, After the initial charter landing, the one brother from the Van der Velde group, refused to fly again on that plane with those two pilots flying. They had a hard, scary landing apparently. I'm guessing the SIC did that landing against the rules. After the charity golf outing, the group rented a car and drove back to their return destination, and had told the pilots forget the return flight, you can go back without us. That should tell you something.
@@GNX157 Wow...good move on their part to stick with their instincts instead of assuming the pilots must be okay.
Transcript - dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=459847&docketID=60373&mkey=95175
It's not easy to read. It starts with chaos and gets worse from there. How do you think that you're 200 miles from the airport when you're 50 miles from the airport?
Christopher Crepon they’re *
Nearly the exact same thing happened to a Lear 35 in New Hampshire in the late 90s. The captain was flying in the right seat with the SIC in the left seat. They never configured the instruments for the approach and never briefed it. They didn't find the plane for 3 years as it crashed in a heavily wooded and mountainous area.
I remember that one.
Captain Sounded Arrogant...2nd in command knew he was over his head ..tried handing control over to Captain.....A lot of bad decisions caust them there lives....very Sad...
That was one incompetent captain. Was he even awake?? The SIC was clearly overwhelmed, and radio instructions were merely repeated without being understood. I wonder if they even went over the plan and what they were expected to do. The SIC was the VICTIM here.
Pilot must have gone to Columbia U
Oh, he was awake: he spent half the flight calling the controller 'dumb' and the other half being dumb.
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co he murdered his copilot, basically
They clearly did not understand wtf they’re doing nor respect teterboro commands?
@@billyhomeyer7414 No, they both murdered themselves. The F/O had no business flying, he was only supposed to monitor. The captain royally messed up in even more ways.
Was the captain on high? Drunk? Having a stroke? Sounds like handing the controls over to one of my kids.
hpygolkyone probably tired and overworked.
Sounds impaired in some way...impossible to know if a medical condition or substance based on this video alone.
Just another LJ idiot.
Only the Russians do that...
th-cam.com/video/y1kPAWVI5UA/w-d-xo.html
No -- toxicology tests were negative. It's in the report.
These are so useful... and humbling.
They were both so far behind a very fast aircraft. Only way to catch up would've been to do a missed and regroup. Probably captain's ego, or by that time panic, prevented it.
I have to wonder about the captain's real abilities and experience level, and the pressures that might have caused both of them to go beyond their quals.
So sad to see them on the surveillance camera, inverted, about to hit, and imagine what they might've been thinking at that moment.
A strong lesson for the rest of us.
I suspect the pilot’s last thought was, “I’ll have another old fashioned.”
These pilots were *way* behind the airplane, here. This is one of those cases where all we can do is try to learn something from what happened. I learned two things: 1. If I ever get this far behind the airplane, ask for a vector/hold somewhere where I can get my head back in the game, and 2. I need to have some sort of method of figuring out when I need to ask for 1.
Dusty Rider I learned this the hard way on an instrument checkride. Anytime you feel like it’s happening to fast ask to bail out of it. Don’t think “oh I can get it done”. I tried and it didn’t work out. Now I’ll probably bail out of the approach faster than I should but I won’t let myself get that far behind again.
Captain was behind more than that...
Saw someone on another video comment "the PIC was so far behind the plane I'm surprised he was in the crash."
For those interested I reccomend you go to the NTSB accident docket and look at all the investagative documents. Really interesting and stuff not mentioned in this video animation.
Like how the crew drove themselves this leg to avoid these pilots.
@@Nicholas-f5Not so, it was the 3 passengers who initially chartered the plane who decided to drive back instead of taking a return flight after a rough landing in Philadelphia. They thought the jet was past its prime and didn’t trust it.
This is simply the captain's fault. No need to bash the sic.
nope sic do coverups for captain condition, and in critical moment give up plane control to person, whom condition clearly does not allow to control a plane. it looks like sic was only pilot in condition suited to fly a plane.
All one can say is wow. Thank you NTSB for preparing this video. It was informative, insightful. and educational. Sad for SIC. WTH? to PIC. RIP N452DA. Even as a low time pilot, this violates every core of my IFR and cockpit mgmt training.
The apparent disregard for their own safety and survival is jaw dropping.
No checklists, captain pushing the SIC to fly a demanding approach in windy conditions in very busy airspace and SIC clearly is out of his depth are just two facets of this debacle that frustrates me. Captain exercised terrible judgment during this flight. Captain clearly should not have been in command of any aircraft that flies in busy airspace.
@ Joe Craven
I would not even let him fly my paraglider. It was allready clear as fresh water, they couldn't make it, with that, by far to late, right turn. Then he underestimated that high bank left turn in a quite windy condition. They could be still alive, if the captain would not have been to proud to admit, he messed that up and decided to make a go around.
A clear winner of the darvin award. Sadly he killed also the innocent SIC.
The negligence of the charter company is another aspect. They didn't include the manufacturer's recommended wind additives for airspeed into their SOP manual. I'm no pilot and sometimes too pedantic but I believe that having this table in the manual would be professional and pragmatic.
RIP pilots but what knuckleheads. Some things you just don't get a do over
What a total mess! Who hired these guys!
Cap. Adam scumbag 135 operators that don’t pay squat are the ones that hire these people
SIC was inexperienced and was following Captain's instruction.
encinobalboa The PIC was completely incompetent in every aspect. He had no SA, no filing skills, puts an inexperienced SIC on a short leg into TEB and has him flying one of the hardest approaches out there. And finally, doesn’t take the controls when asked to. As far as I’m concerned, the PIC killed that copilot.
Sam Walton
@@tripleh4884--that is not a difficult approach, dummy. I flew to TTB many times.
Captain killed himself and his 2nd.
The fact that this guy asked for 27000 FT on such a tiny sector says everything to me...
He didn't have GPS and refused SIC's offer to use his iPad. Despite that, he thought Teterboro, New Jersey was somehow HUNDREDS OF MILES from Philadelphia. The only tragedy is that this moron took down an innocent younger pilot in his ignorant arrogance.
Funny how the captain thought he could save that bad position instead of just flying a go around not cool
Yes exactly should have done torby at 1,500 circled the other one and then proceeded to runway 6 as instructed he did not he was locked in to ILS at runway 6 not 1
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail! Checklists save lives!!
A very well done video. Its power comes from the straightforward letting the facts tell the story. And that last clip gives it a wowhock ending.
Terrifying, sad and scary.
Lets keep learning from these accidents
AMEN to that!
Aviate, navigate, communicate. 0 out of 3.
Nobilangelo Ceramalus not even the most important part, aviate...
Listen to the cockpit responses. They were rushed and incorrect readbacks most of the time. What the heck was going on in there ?
Too much airplane to two too-little pilots.
They got behind in the flight and couldn't make up for the reduce amount of time they had to the airport. It all looked great on paper and the flight plan changed right of the git go and that started sequence. It's just a bunch of small things that came together. Identify the wrong airport doesn't help, miss the turn, then had to turn too tight. Who's got the controls, etc.
Excerpt from the Pilots wifes testimony : She recalled overhearing a speakerphone conversation between her husband and Mr. Alino on or
around March 12, 2017, during which Mr. Alino said he refused to fly with Bill Wickens
because Mr. Wickens was very rude and had told him during their last flight, "Alino you have no
business flying a jet." Mr. Alino was upset by this and told the captain he was going to call in
sick so he would not have to fly with Mr. Wickens. Mr. Alino did call in sick and Mr. Frost
called another pilot, Paul Parthus, who traveled to New Jersey to meet Mr. Wickens and operate
the scheduled flight.
Who are you taking about??
@@feetgoaroundfullflapsC I am talking about Mr Alino, everyone in hear is blaming the PIC, yes he deserves the brunt of the blame but if you read into the backround of Mr Alino that guy had issues as well. There was a reason Bill Wickens said that " Mr Alino you have no buisness flying a jet" and he was right!
@@a914freak Nobody knows who these people are. Are you talking about the PIC? The SIC?
@@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co Jeffery Alino was SIC
@@a914freakthe PIC is the one who let Alino fly the jet (which you agree he had no business flying) and then refused to take back controls until the flight was already doomed - and then he ignored the SIC's numerous calls for speed after telling him to monitor speed! The PIC is 100% to blame for this tragic, preventable accident.
Started bad, ended bad.
God bless them.
Thank you NTSB.
LOTS TO LEARN FROM THIS PREVENTABLE ACCIDENT.
Dont tell me what to do
@@PutsOnSneakers
Do exactly as I say. 🤥🤥🤥🤥
DON'T YOU EVER LIE.
Neither of them belonged in the cockpit.
In fact they were, mentally, running AFTER their aircraft : a typical recipe for disaster.
I feel bad for the second in command, he knew he was over his head. Unfortunately the company he worked for stuck him with this for a trainer.
@@jeepnutnh agreed
I disagree: the SIC was in training, clearly, and was classified SIC 0, and the captain should have been doing pretty much everything. New pilots need training and guidance, and familiarization, and this crash is exactly why.
The SIC was actually much more aware of the situation than the PIC. I appreciate that he took the initiative by handing over the flight controls well before the point at which he was supposed to circle. The PIC didn't accept and was rather misleading than helpful when they needed to circle. SIC called out the airspeed multiple times after PIC accepted his second hand over. The PIC went on and performed a manouvre that doomed them.
At no point did either of these pilots demonstrate that they had any idea what they were doing.
And now they'll never demonstrate that behavior ever again
i've done this same approach playing on the computer and it's super hard, and it's a damn game where I won't die and still go around 20 times when I try it.... calling that guy a captain is a bit of an overstatement I think.... couldn't read back instructions right, poor communication with SIC, doesn't follow company procedures, didn't take over the flight on approach when the SIC was not confident, didn't make sure all checklists were done, didn't do a pre-flight brief, didn't do an approach brief, didn't ask to be vectored into less congested space to do a brief, didn't call for a missed approach when it was clear they missed, crashed the damn plane...
LMFAO -- as a pilot this approach is very easy it's hardly even a circle approach
@@ashleyclore1406 everything's relative I guess... for me this is pretty hard... looks like these pilots thought the same.... :(
I've flown this COUNTLESS times. It's barely a circle if you actually begin the "circle" at TORBY. This also doesn't reference the fact that in a tip tank Lear, you circle at flaps 20 and ref +20. These guys were circling at flaps 40 and at ref, so had considerably less stall margin than what is typically recommended. Small stall margin + steeply banked (and likely pulling) turns don't end well......
I am also a pilot and flew out of TEB for years, executing this approach many times. It is actually one of my favorites as it is super easy if you do like Patrick says. Turn at TORBY, head straight for MET LIFE, and put your wing on the 50 yard line to turn final... perfect line up every time and a great view right down the top of the stadium! I don't see how everyone is blaiming the FO... completely CA fault. FO tried numerous times to hand over controls and stated out loud he was not comfortable. CA was behind the game before they left PHL, filing for FL270? Thinking they were hundreds of miles away? WTF
Jo Ubi
Don’t conflate real world experience with armchair ‘prowess’.
This kind of incompetency puts the entire system in jeopardy
Note that the accident ID is CEN17MA183, not CEN17FA183.
it would be interesting to hear the inflight recording.
ntsb accident docket has transcript
It's available and not pleasant to read.
It would probably be more interesting than we'd want to hear.
Maybe you can request it at the ICAO
Got a buddy who reviewed the audio for NTSB, said it's even worse to hear than to read. And you can hear their screams as they went down. Only a few select ATC clips have been officially released from this flight and I agree, I would like to hear the entire recording released.
When flying gliders, you are trained to avoid button hook approaches, basically last minute high bank turns to extend the pattern to lose altitude. There are no go-arounds for gliders, so altitude/airspeed management is key. I think preforming a missed approach for RNY 6 would have been a good idea. Prayers for the family.
Thank you for this presentation. you have gone to great lengths to portray a realistic and accurate chronicle of events and I wonder what would have happened if this was a successful landing. Would the airmen involved just chalk it up to a "hiccup" or would they understand the vast departure from normal procedures.
They don't want to discourage pilots for asking for help or vectors when they get 'lost' in this airspace. However I would like to see them get in serious trouble for not initiating a go around before attempting the last turn. I think modern large airliners will automatically report you to company if you attempt these types of maneuvers.
I'm afraid they would have "learned" that what they did was OK, and killed a bunch of passengers thenext time.
Dang- so avoidable.
Cross control stalls are still an issue with GA. You get too close to the runway and the wind is pushing you through final forcing you to overcorrect. Instinct is to use rudder and aileron, sometimes in an uncoordinated manner to correct and at low speeds you can get into an uncoordinated stall, even when above stall speed (aerodynamically speaking the top wing stalls because of its higher angle of attack and the aircraft proceeds to roll the opposite direction) which can result in a stall/spin incident which at low altitude can be quite fatal. The FAA has finally mandated stronger unusual attitude recovery trading for Part 121 operators (simulators are now being reprogrammed for FULL STALL scenarios). Older training had us try to maintain altitude in a stall. That has now been revised to say that getting out of the stall is primary, regardless of altitude loss. But since these new rules don’t apply to Part 91/135 operators, not everybody is getting the message. If these guys had been trained correctly there’s a possibility they would’ve known to reduce the AOA, straighten out the aircraft, get it flying again and go around. Cleaning out the seat covers is much preferred to making a smoking hole in the ground.
And for background, I have 7 type ratings and 16,000+ hours in the air. And I haven’t lost an airplane or a passenger yet.
Absolutely right on use of the rudder. When my pops taught me to fly he had me use zero rudder on base to teach that point. Blowing the center line he said although not a good base leg is fine , you may continue your same bank angle to center line or go around. If you use rudder in that situation to correct you are a complete fool he said. Of course rudder can be used safely but only after one understands what an accelerated stall is and how the rudder relates to it.
glad no one on the ground was hurt and honestly, glad those two arent flying anymore... who smashes in at 90+ degree of bank on a clear day....? admit you screwed up and ask for vectors to 1 for a visual approach
1. Steep Turns
2. Low altitude
3. Low airspeed
You CANNOT do all three and any 2 are a slippery slope, apply POWER and declare a go around.
God, what a cluster.
Does anyone else subscribe because of the air crash investigation series?
You mean Air Disasters?
Anthony George it’s called air crash investigation in the UK, so yeah air disasters from where u are
@@zero_meercat8624 Ohh I see. Is the acting any better? Lol jk
Anthony George 😂 not sure mate
My guess is the loss of control initiated with airspeed decay due to the failure to increase power during the steep turn. Sounds like they completely forgot how to fly an airplane....wow.
Carlos Pulpo The full report had it down to the wind gusts, and the pilot failure to compute wind additives to the proper airspeed for the plane. So they had it banked over and the wind gusts from the wrong direction took lift away from the wings enough to stall it because they hadn't addded airspeed to compensate.
GNX157 exactly how it happened,it virtually keeled over ,too slow, too high a bank, increasing the stall speed, almost inverted the cockpit hit the ground, beautiful aircraft.Rip, from Maplewood NJ
The captain probably thought he is a professional acro pilot. Im pretty sure, he never tried that trick before. Even in less windy conditions, this last turn would have been a challenge.
As far as the Captain, my first thought was is he half asleep, later in video wondered if he was having a stroke.
...Had either of these cats commanded a JET before?..
Why not a go around at that point? They were behind every step of the way.
You think this is bad, you should read the transcript. The PIC can't hardly get a word out without it being an expletive and the SIC had no business being anywhere near a seat on the flight deck. It is absolutely disgraceful that these guys were allowed to fly and terribly unfortunate that they died.
Just to think that on my birthday, a single minute before school, a plane crashed. RIP
Sad occurrence. Unfortunately, this "Captain's" dilemma started way back when he thought he was much further from the destination airport than he actually was. This forced him, once he figured it out, (Lack of Situational Awareness) to act a lot faster than he was accustomed to. Oh those chain links of events that seem to inevitably lead to disaster. Sounds simple but he would have been better suited just going "missed" and regrouping his thoughts on that otherwise routine approach. May they both Rest in Peace!!
It was VFR and you could see TTB from the moon. No excuses for been a Maggot like that.
When he departed KPHL, he apparently didn't realize New Jersey was, like, two blocks away...
So very true! Go figure John. That's why GOD made Low Altitude Enroute Charts...or even Sectionals ,for that matter.
I know things happen faster in a Lear then what happens in the 172/182 I flew - but jeez.
They should have known that it was going to be quick hop if they had any sense of positional awareness.
Sounds like they were behind the hole flight and never even got close to catching up.
I used to fly out of KMQS which is just west of the MXE VOR for the CAP. Things can get busy even in a small Cessna commo wise when flying on an IFR flight plan around here.
I'd be interested to know the Captain's experience level, time in type, total jet PIC/SIC experience, etc. I fly for a company who is similarly hiring low-time, inexperienced or post-retirement-aged pilots who have no business acting as PIC in Jet Aircraft, charter or otherwise. It's only a matter of time before someone gets killed and the ensuing lawsuits "sink" the company. And while the Captain must be (posthumously) full responsibility for this needless accident, a certain amount of "blame" must be assigned to the D.O., Chief Pilot, and/or Check Airman who signed off on his competency as PIC. (59 year old ATP, 12,000 hours, 5 type ratings, including LR-JET, still flying professionally)
What I was able to find about the Captain:
SUNQUEST EXECUTIVE AIR CHARTER LLC
ANNUAL PILOT EXPERIENCE SUMMARY
Pilot: W. Ramsey
Date: 06/24/2016
GENERAL EXPERIENCE
Total Time: 6599.8
Multi-Engine: 5462.4
Turbine: 968.4
Turboprop: 1888.8
Pilot-in-Command: 5519.4
Simulated Instrument: 119.1
Actual Instrument: 2190
Night: 2816.4
Cross-Country: 5409.3
Day Landings: thousands
Night Landings: thousands
NORMAL CATEGORY
AIRCRAFT TYPE: Ir-series
Total Time: 805.3
Second-in-Command: 805.3
AIRCRAFT TYPE: be-400
Total Time: 163.1
Second-in-Command: 163.1
Total time doesn’t always equal competence.
Xei Another "experienced pilot" that only knew Mild Maneuvering. Then tried Hard GRM and caused a disaster. Mild Maneuvering Maggots crashing all over. Im an Aerobatic CFI.
Rich Grant Congratulations’s for you. A competent pilot doesn’t get into a situation that requires exceptional skill to get out of. Your aerobatics training won’t get you out of a low altitude accelerated stall in a swept wing lear jet.
@@seandunn2062- But my aerobatics training teaches me not to do wild maneuvering at low altitude that I havent proved myself to be very good before. I only do aerobatics at over 3k agl. and depends what kind of maneuver. It is the MIld Maneuvering Maggots that try things they dont know too well. The ones that know acell stalls are not the ones that do them at low alt. WE KNOW BETTER BY EXPERIENCE. I bet that 6,600 hour Lear captain only practice Mild Maneuvering, tried a hard one-Crashed..
Same with other hard maneuvers. Like Turnbacks to Opposite Runway after engine trouble on take off. When I didnt know them I almost got killed on one. the engine had partial power so I stopped the turn and went to a low 300 agle downwind leg.
I madly cursed my CFI for not teaching me that maneuver that i needed to know. Made him apologize and shamed him. He maggot fooled me and almost killed me while getting paid well. I dont put up with Crooks. I was a cop.
The ones that dont want to practice that are the ones that try them when needed, do them wrong-- and crash. I teach 4 kinds of take off engine fails on initial climb. No accidents in 5k hours teaching. Too many Chicken CFI's teaching only Mild Maneuvering is the root of the LOC Crisis during Hard Maneuvering. Logical. Mild Maneuvering Maggots I call them. F them.
Was waiting for this to come out..... Can always go-around.... Amazing to see pilots ignore checklists and briefings; the lack of preparation for the arrival is frightening.... Not criticizing, just learning. Lucky they didn't kill anyone on the ground 😕 RIP
Why did he file for 27000 feet for an eighty Mile flight?
I honestly think he thought he was returning to Bedford MA, I say this because of this comment "I don't know what the # their thinking we're doin We're # hundreds of miles away man!
My biggest issue with this is the Captains idiocy killed someone else.
Cpt in no way -sounds- impaired or tired but my god what a total clusterfuck of a flight.
This is so sad hard to believe it actually happened. Was the captain busy snorting a line of coke? Sorry it's just so unbelievable how this accoured.
yes but no drugs detected.
Way too many mistakes made on a routine flight with ATC instructions being exactly what you should expect. Makes me wonder if the captain knew his ability was impaired....
Wondering if it was possible to draw blood from the captain's body for toxicology. He was obviously not slurring or anything, but his judgement was SO poor, and that's often the problem with driving/boating/flying while intoxicated--the false sense of confidence.
Not sure how it was performed but apparently the toxicology report officially came back negative. The way the CVR transcript shows the PIC (and to a lesser extent the SIC) being overly concerned with getting their flight over in a rush (apparently not realizing it's already an incredibly short flight as-is) makes me wonder if he was mentally preoccupied with something else in his personal or professional life.
The fact the captains pilots licence was written in crayon on the back of a cigarette packet was the first clue he wasn't qualified to be in any plane!
Oh man couldn't stop laughing for 10 minutes
8 minutes into the flight the Capt is already behind the flights' situation. Went downhill from there.
This is hard to watch and hard to believe the mistakes the PIC made.
he keeps signalling to the captain that he needs a more modest workload and he keeps getting you're doing fine buddy in return.
so he probably believed that a circling maneuver when in minums could begin the turn like a standard traffic pattern, even below. Thinking he is hundred miles away and fly even higher, he definetely lost situational awareness; lack of familiarity with the airport circling approach procedures was his dead sentence.
Honestly, it sounds like he never had situational awareness...
You guys know if your compatriots over at the Chemical Safety Board are going to resume putting out their case study videos soon?
Miss those, Trump cancelled them I think, sadly.
1:35 in and I am already wondering if they bought their licenses and started flying or if they did train.
An airplane is no place to get sloppy. What a shame, hope you're in a better place fellas
Don't want to disrespect the dead but this captain should not have been in a cockpit, let alone being the captain. I think, both the pilots would've been unsafe behind the steering wheel of a car too. Shocking level of incompetence.
I hate hearing guys on the radio who sound like this guy. I used to fly with one, as his FO. I saved our lives once he wanted a route that would have been about 10 more minutes than the fuel we had. He kept telling me to relax. I asked ATC for a different clearance.
Short flights in the Lear can be dangerous, and should also include a mention of which checklists you might be able to skip or cut short, if necessary, during the preflight crew briefing. This guy was so far behind the airplane it’s shocking! Poor FO must’ve been terrified.
I put no blame on the copilot, the copilot was literally forced to pilot the plane.
The Lear was descending but the pilot in command was still in the clouds. The Captain was not fit to fly that mission.
...we're either of them type rated?..
That's a whole lot of Charlie Foxtrot.
captain had to be drunk or on drugs. That was insane everything done wrong
report amazingly said neither were.
Awesome looking jet.
Wow. If you look up "shitshow" in the dictionary, this would be the prime #1 example. Thank you NTSB for an extremely informative and well-done video.
I found this to be very educational. I never got my instrument rating and never flew in that area, but this video brings the factors to those operations to light pretty well. I'm curious if there was a toxicology report done on the captain on this aircraft. Beautiful aircraft, too.
This is Shocking and to even hear the Captain talk like he doesn't Care about what is happening during the flight!!!!!!
What was the problem with that captain? He got them both killed. Wth? You could tell the FO wasn't sure of himself, why did the capt continually avoid taking the controls when requested to?
He was trying to figure out where the heck they were.
The plane looked upside down before crashing. How did they get into that situation?
Arrogance coupled with complacency in my eyes.
Steve Lamberts - with a dose of incompetence and irresponsibility.
And a sprinkle of stupidity to match.
What gets me is that the NTSB can make suggestions only. The airlines or governments can do what they want with those suggestions. Maybe they should have more power so when something like this happens, they can put their foot down and say, “No more”!
Susan Wahl - The NTSB do an excellent job of what they do. The system isn’t broken - don’t mess with it.
The FAA regulates, the NTSB suggests, it's an interesting dynamic but unfortunately things only get done when the body count is high enough. I have much respect for the NTSB though, they do an amazing job.
@@nynphose separating diagnosis/recommendation (ntsb) from regulation (faa) ensures that nobody accuses the ntsb of making up new rules just for the sake of exerting authority.
during the covid I am constantly amazed that governments take measures trying to safe lives while so many civilians think they are just messing with them for the hell of it
I'm really glad I'm not a flight tower controller. You can be the best controller in the world and it won't matter if the captain doesn't listen
It could be noted that responses like "got it" or "copy" or "okay" are not proper communications protocol that signify acceptance of an ATC clearance. Obviously this captain was a pilot who was not a stickler for proper procedures. When you're a cowboy, sometimes you get bucked off your horse. If that horse happens to be an aircraft, getting bucked off is going involve a lot worse consequence than having to pick yourself up off the ground and getting back in the saddle. And if your're a pilot who prefers flying by the seat of your pants, you ought to save that for your days off when you can jump in your Taylorcraft and shoot touch and goes on your grass strip. Don't do it on your job in the left seat of a Lear in a busy New York terminal area.
Tim E. I’m not making excuses for them,,but if you were in the area THAT DAY, it was so windy, too slow too low too tight a turn gust of wind,,they lost it ,,it damned near welt inverted, I missed it by 15 mins or so,,I was across from the airport shopping, Then left the area, heard it on the radio, saw it on TV. from Maplewood nj
Dude wanted to make an Oshkosh approach apparently...
That one is like a short approach 180. This was a low, slow double swerve with steep turns to align. A low slow Double swerve on a Lear?? the maggot captain should be punched for that. That was an accelerated stall practice at 600 agl.
Unbelievable, no SOP, NO CRM, NO SITUATUON AWARENESS
I don't think they had the procedure plates out or programmed into then nav gps. Worse yet looks like it was their first time there combined with no paper or gps map or chart showing the procedure. They also don't seem to of learned not climbing staying low for short flights is much faster.
Nuff said about those two, but... Have I missed something? Why all planes were forced to make that maneuvering instead of just landing on runway 6?
Because the wind favored Rwy 1. We try to land into the wind as much as possible.
These guys ever heard of a missed approach???? WTF . The ego of that pic not to admit they were behind the aircraft and go missed, got them both killed. Second-in-command shouldn't have been flying, however he had the responsibility as well to start a missed approach. I'd like to know if they were both current (6hits) with instruments. This should not have happened!
Did this captain get his pilot's license from the DMV?
RIP to both pilots. But i'm totally shocked with the attitude of the Cap. The SIC was also inexperienced. "High bank left turn"..he tried to squeeze it in. I was taught if you are still far out, do an S-Turn to re-align the aircraft with the RWY (did this on my first solo). If you are too close, Go around. Never try to squeeze it in....many have gone!
rip. maybe you get one mistake, this had many...
Holy Twilight Zone Batman. What in the world could have been going on in there? When an air crew fails to respond properly more than once or twice like these guys did, can a ATC order them to do anything or ask what is the problem... you guys are screwing up? Is there anything that could have been done to wake these guys up before they crashed? When I say these guys I mean the pilot the copilot tried to hand over the control several times...
What were they doing up there? Smoking a joint?
Oddly enough, both were stone cold sober.
Talking about situational awareness...what?
Was the pilot tired? Sad story.
unbelievable. follow directions. it’s so simple
He couldn’t read back the instructions, let alone follow them! I swear I think I used to fly with this guy!
I remember that day, I was across from KTEB, at the NEW BALANCE STORE, sure was a win day day, straight down the runway, It happened 15 minutes later, then saw it on TV. from Maplewood NJ
So u got from Teterboro to Maplewood in 15 mins.???
Unbelievable. I'm speechless. The only 'silver lining'to this is they had no passengers & killed no one on the ground. Was this plane a charter / rental flown by hired pilots or ??? Must have been affected by fatigue, drugs or alcohol. I can't fathom otherwise.
David A yeah, hard to believe the captain wasn’t high or otherwise altered. I just can’t believe anyone would be that incompetent otherwise.
Go to the docket and read the witness statements of the group who chartered the plane. They drove back after the outing because the one brother refused to fly on the plane again due to a hard scary landing on the initial flight down to the golf outing, so this could of happened with ppl on board but doubtful this scenario because the drop off was I think Boston, then Teterboro to park. Group told pilots to forget staying around for return flight, we're driving back.
@@GNX157 Gosh GN thx for digging that out of the report - it sure illuminates how / why this happened. My other question is what kind of rich idiots let a million (several?) $$$ plane be handled by such incompetent hands ? Any insights Sir ?
David A And they made several stops that day, & were returning to the roost, , It was a bad day, very windy, they were too slow, too low,,and too steep a turn, wind,,then lost it, darn near inverted, that was the only red LEAR 35, I’d ever seen,, YOY needed to have been in the area that day. from Maplewood NJ
How did that guy get to be captain? Was he drunk or drugged? He certainly didn't have his head onto the task at hand and seemed distracted.
No preflight check list completed, just turn the key and take off...
Lear jets are a beast and not forgiving of rapid control at low airspeeds...
once out of position like that... the sr should have called missed approach and out. Never try to save a bad approach...
Kobe Wild , were you in No that day? It was so freaking w I n d y , with gusts up to 50 + mph, they were in too TIGHT A TURN GUSTS , THEN LOST IT ,,DARN NEAR INVERTED.. Maplewood nj
So they flew the plane into the ground themselves? What a waste.
Greg Caesar you should have been in the area that day, buy was it very windy, with high gusts,,they were too low, to high a bank angle, which INCREACES THE STALL SPEED, THEN LOST IT , THE NOSE & cockpit hit the ground first data , near inverted, I was in that area that day ACROSS from KTEB, I think there might have gusts near 60mph., but left 10 mins before.from Maplewood NJ
Galileo7of9
Yeahhhhh be quiet.
@Galileo7of9 yes, it was under pilot control. this simply means that all actuators respond nominally - the aircraft is behaving as per pilot inputs. you are thinking of "control" in the sense that the plane goes where the pilot wants it to go (i.e. not into the ground!) but it is the pilot's job to combine his intentions with the laws of flight physics to arrive at suitable control inputs.
You can make a big error only once and this was one of them.
I have quite literally flown Cessna 152s with my mates and it's been more professional than this. Absolutely mind boggling that pilots of this calibre are given jobs 🙄
It’s all about bank angle. At a 60 degree bank your stall speed increases by 40%. I would say he was close to that trying to not overshoot runway 1. Classic base to final stall. When you run out of altitude,airspeed and ideas all at the same time.
It was like he was trying to right all the mistakes made, in the last 15 seconds of flight. Also seemed as if all his flight training was for nothing, he clearly forgot everything he ever learned. Looks like a suicide more than a controlled landing. yet a terrible loss.
I think this is an accurate guess, judging by later reports (see below for links). The captain tried to make a late and violent course correction to final, through an area that was experiencing up to 30 mph wind gusts, and for which a low-level shear warning advisory had been issued. The steep bank at relatively low speed took him under stall speed, with no height to recover, and there's some indication that the plane almost flipped over before it hit the ground.
An account of the NTSB report is here: eu.northjersey.com/story/news/transportation/2018/02/07/files-detail-last-moments-fatal-2017-teterboro-jet-crash/317380002/ Another report, here, patch.com/new-jersey/wyckoff/nj-man-was-co-pilot-learjet-crashed-teterboro
states that "The NTSB found no drugs in either Alino [SIC] or Ramsey [Captain] and the voice recorder does not indicate that anything went wrong with the plane while it was on approach to Teterboro." The captain had at least 15 years' experience and had made thousands of landings. God knows what was going on in that cockpit.
@@innocentoctave You're right, my point is where was his training? Go around, he had to be aware that his flight path was deteriorating and there was no chance for a successful landing. My first 8 hours of flight (40 years ago) consisted of take off, and land in that field, take off, land on that gravel road, take off land in that meadow. Hell, I just wanted to fly, well years later what she taught me saved my life, an off field landing in a field that had previously killed a state trooper years before. If you don't have a plan you don't have a chance. Follow procedure. Stay calm. Keep flying the airplane.
@@seapilot4042 Obviously I'm guessing - nobody will ever know - but my impression is that the PIC was severely impaired by something: probably fatigue. I can't see any other explanation for a series of bad decisions and unexplainable mistakes, such as requesting an altitude that implied a much longer journey and then apparently believing that he was still 'hundreds of miles' away from the destination airport. Command given to the unqualified SIC - why? So the PIC could snatch some shuteye on what should have been an easy flight? The SIC repeatedly trying to return control to the PIC, with no response? By the time he resumes command, it's way too late. Marc Bennett has it right: too steep a bank angle in an attempt to make a very late turn to final raises the stall speed and he stalls. The crash looks like a rookie error: but to me the likeliest explanation is just that the PIC is resuming command in a big hurry and too late.
@@innocentoctave Well stated, I agree. Cheers