the pilot who REFUSED to take off until he was damn sure that the lost airliner was at the gate was the hero in this incident. He put safety ahead of everything and may well have saved hundreds of lives. Hope they gave him a raise, or at least bought him a beer.....
Thank God 2998 refused to take off until the situation was under control. Ive listened to this recording every so often since hearing it in an aviation safety course in 2006. I get choked up about it every time to this day. So many lives could've been lost from a simple mistake and the communication is this video.
1448 knows where it is and knows its on the active runway. Excellent choice by the other pilot to reject takeoff until he knows another plaane is off of it. Bravo to the pilots, not so much the controller.
1448 did not know and they kept mixing up 23L with 23R, 1448 screwed up every second read back once they were getting progressive taxi instructions to the gate.
Everyone? Including the pilot of 2998 who stood up to ATC when told to take off? No. This pilot should be commended for following safe work practices even in the face of authority telling him to do otherwise.
Kudos to United pilots too, while they got lost and were being bullied by the controller, they remained assertive and raised enough commotion for FedEx pilots to notice.
Unspoken, why did the FAA think this Controller was ready and able to do her Job? And why did it take almost killing hundreds in order to find out? Blaming, swearing, "shouldn't be"....the airport and her HEAD were both in the fog.
Maybe this was the first time this happened to her? I agree she lost her head. But unless this kind of incident happened before, there's no way to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not until something like this happens. If they know how, people can do their jobs without a problem. Most of the time there is no problems.
@@chrisgast What was "the first time this happened to her?" fog at PVD or sending an aircraft to a near collision? I disagree, there is a way, training and assessment, to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not. And WHATEVER from the FAA process that got this controller to this point MISSED some very vital clues of behavior that should have been CAUGHT before reaching the point of sending a loaded passenger aircraft on a possible collision. Argumentative. ("everybody just be quite") Not accepting information ("we're on an active runway") (think THAT is called not "listening") Expectations and dismiss information that did not fit that expectation ("you shouldn't be anywhere near kilo") ("you were supposed to...") even when they're TELLING the controller they are NOT Blame ("doesn't no where the hell he is")
The US Airways captain was smart to stay put until the situation was crystal clear ( a lesson harshly learned at Tenerife in 1977). The United crew was giving bad info to the controller following their wrong turn and the propagation of bad info confused everyone. Once he reported that someone just took off of the runway a big red flag should have gone up for everyone. A pilot on the United aircraft then said they were on 23L but the controller missed it (probably thinking 23R) and tried to clear the US Airways plane for takeoff. Again the cooler head of the US Airways pilot prevailed and they waited until they knew it was safe despite the confused controllers mistaken assurance that the runway was clear. That was a very dangerous assumption by a harried controller who even said they could not see the runway. There is plenty of blame to go around primarily for the United crew but the tower controller only made matters worse by not hearing the 23L call by the United pilot. The US Airways pilot is the hero in this case.
To clear a flight for takeoff after you have been told by 1448 that they are on or near the ACTIVE runway is close to attempted murder. This airport has no surveillance of the runway and therefore is based on pilots reporting their position. OK, 1448 took a wrong turn when directed to go taxiway N and crossing 16 then onto T. But they reported their position correctly when they realized their mistake. The controller did not take that into account. That would be like not looking at the radar when someone idents because you think you know where they are anyway. To take a wrong turn on the ground is not uncommon. That is why airports either have ground surveillance or strict rules of reporting where you are. If controllers don't care people will die. And they would have this time if it wasn't for the 2998 who obviously heard the active runway position of 1448. In his mind then either 1448 didn't know where he was or he knew he was on the active runway. Either way he choose to opt for caution and stay put. And maybe he thought that a fellow pilot obviously is better placed to call out position than a controller without visual of the airport.
The controller thought or expected 1448 to be at 23R, when they were actually at 23L. Even 1448 didn't know where they were until they finally admitted it. With it being foggy and 1448 didn't know themselves where they were, how could you expect the controller to know? Yes, since there was confusion, she shouldn't have tried to clear 2998. But she didn't know for certain where 1448 was, and neither did the 1448 crew.
controller is somewhat unprofessional - yes United made a mistake - but the controller - ai yi yi. Fortunately, they've since converted 5L to Taxiway Victor, and reverted to just runway 5. Also, it looks like they're using ASDE-X to hopefully avoid this sort of thing in the future.
Imagine if the UsAir Pilot was as stupid as the tower ATC: "2998 cleared for takeoff runway 5R, fly runway heading" US2998: "Cleared for Takeoff runway 5R" UAL1448: "MA'AM WE ARE ON AN AN ACTIVE RUNWAY" ATC: "1448, that is a closed runwa-" *BOOM*
There is a way, training and assessment, to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not. And WHATEVER from the FAA process that got this controller to this point MISSED some very vital clues of behavior that should have been CAUGHT before reaching the point of sending a loaded passenger aircraft on a possible collision. Argumentative. ("everybody just be quite") Not accepting information ("we're on an active runway") (think THAT is called not "listening") Expectations and dismiss information that did not fit that expectation ("you shouldn't be anywhere near kilo") ("you were supposed to...") even when they're TELLING the controller they are NOT Blame ("doesn't no where the hell he is")
I can tell that the controller is upset because commercial pilots in particular are supposed to be familiar enough with the airport's layout to navigate effectively on the ground. If you lose your bearings, that's what the taxiway signs are for. Look at your layout chart for the airport which you are supposed to have with you in the cockpit. The FedEx pilot was listening carefully to all communications going on, and maintained safe situational awareness.
thank god for heads up piloting man...if I was that pilot awaiting departure I would've done the exact same thing... there are old pilots and there are bold pilots...but not many who are both
The US Airways crew operating Flight 2998 were praised by a US Air spokesperson for their actions of avoiding a near-disaster. An investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board followed and while no fault was assigned to the controller, she was required to undergo retraining before returning to service. The pilots were debriefed by United, received additional training and were returned to service.
if i am not mistaken, two united pilots are both talking to ATC. doesn't this add to confusion, and isn't it usual for just one to communicate with tower?
Yes, it does. However, I think the one pilot (the one handling radio communications) was having trouble getting through to the controller. So, the other one decided to get on the radio.
no having two voices does not add to the confusion. taking a wrong turn, then mixing up 23L with 23R and screwing up every second read back once progressive taxi instructions were given added to the confusion.
1:55 they were on 23L/5R but reported they were on 23R and looking at Kilo. I don't know why it took ATC so long to figure out that none of that information made any sense, and then she cleared other aircraft to takeoff. Then the lost aircraft said "we are on an active runway!", and ATC proceeds to tell them to shut up and again clears the other aircraft to take off. Thankfully the other pilot had the situational awareness to know he'd be barreling into danger and refused the repeated directives to take off.
@@brianlacroix822 United were confused. ATC was reckless. Taking a wrong turn in foggy conditions and being confused is an honest mistake. It shouldn't happen but it will, occasionally. Clearing a plane for take-off when another one just radioed they're on an active runway at the same airport and their location is unclear must never, ever, ever! happen on airport. That's much worse.
you know I think sometimes we need to cut controllers a little more slack because sometimes they are looking outside and not quite sure how they are going to pull this off but at the end of the day they still have a plane full of passengers that they need to put down safely, wait that not right...
In the description you say "the pilots provided incorrect position reports"....they most certainly did not, they told the tower controller exactly where they were. And I'm glad the controller got re trained because the way she acted was very very unprofessional. Praise to the USAir pilot for avoiding a disaster!!
Actually, they did provide incorrect position reports. They said they were on 23R when they were really at 23L, until they finally realized it (they were on 23L). Listen at around 1:30 of the video above.
Taking advantage of occasion, I'm sorry to say IMHO very idea of allowing controllers to operate without sight/ ground radar sounds to me, as insanity. All controller has to rely on, in order to maintain mental situational awareness are reports of movement and position coming from planes. Whole system relies on them knowing where they are, where they are going, reporting and executing all instructions 100% of a time correctly. Problem is,... every pilot in his career do make wrong turn, one time or another, often even in familiar airport and perfect weather condition. How much more likely this is going to happen in unfamiliar airport, when barely anything at all is visible behind the window? In low visibility, once you take a wrong turn, (which will be the case to many medium and older age planes, as well smaller, foreign and so forth) in many cases there is just no way of knowing about mistake till you reach some intersection where there are signs, which as seen on this video, might happen to be just, too little too late. It's a system of blind, leading other blinds AND more often then less of the time, confused, traveling at 140+ knots, on crossing each other pathways... and hoping everything is going to be an OK... On top: calling it all safe. Add amateurish, arrogant, full of her/himself controller (as on this video) to equation, and once again old FAA rule will be confirmed. in order for things to improve, few hundreds of people MUST die. Close calls, common sense, are never enough to offset corporate interest and economic convenience. Only substantial amount of human blood will do. Only blood finds its way to statistics (word FAA loves), to offset it's claim, how statistically "safe" aviation is. After all only 50 or so people died last ten years in big airline crashes. Fact that another 500 or so only last year died in GA's, and another 10,000 (or God himself only knows how many) could have or almost died, simply does not count. We have "very safe" aviation!
The lady in the control tower not only should've been fired, she should be thrown in JAIL for attempted murder and negligence. She was told by the pilot that he was on RWY 23L several times, and she still cleared another plane for takeoff on the same runway. Instead of trying to figure out the problem she had an attitude that could've gotten people killed.
This is why all pilots are required to have all required charts and decimation in the cockpit at all times. The controller did nothing wrong but if the pilots had documentation, there would be no problem at all.
Well, the controller had a bad attitude and didn't keep her cool. If she kept her cool and realized they were lost, then the 1448 pilots would've been the only ones looking like idiots. But she blew up.
That controller should have been fired without question. But i bet that didn't happen in the name of diversity as that seems to trump safety and common sense these days.
@CTFlyer7 I'm a Pilot. The thing is, female air traffic controllers are amazing, you can have a laugh with them. Female pilots, are very bad with communications sometimes, especially if she's attracted to the pilots she's working with. Yerr the women was cocky, may be she needs to get laid or something haha ;)
And you know this from flying a cash register at Tesco, right? Washing out of flight school does not make you a "commercial pilot" any more than wanking to louise minchin on telly makes you a stud.
the pilot who REFUSED to take off until he was damn sure that the lost airliner was at the gate was the hero in this incident. He put safety ahead of everything and may well have saved hundreds of lives. Hope they gave him a raise, or at least bought him a beer.....
Controller: "Flight 2998, you are cleared to commit suicide!"
2998: "Uh.....no thanks."
Thank God 2998 refused to take off until the situation was under control. Ive listened to this recording every so often since hearing it in an aviation safety course in 2006. I get choked up about it every time to this day.
So many lives could've been lost from a simple mistake and the communication is this video.
Textbook situational awareness by the other pilots in 2998.
1448 knows where it is and knows its on the active runway. Excellent choice by the other pilot to reject takeoff until he knows another plaane is off of it.
Bravo to the pilots, not so much the controller.
1448 didn't know initially.
1448 did not know and they kept mixing up 23L with 23R, 1448 screwed up every second read back once they were getting progressive taxi instructions to the gate.
The aircraft that wouldn't move until things were resolved might have prevented another Tenerife!
It DID.
Everyone? Including the pilot of 2998 who stood up to ATC when told to take off? No. This pilot should be commended for following safe work practices even in the face of authority telling him to do otherwise.
ATC isn’t the final authority, per FAA regulations.
God bless the pilot that declined the take-off instruction…twice! He’s my hero!
It wasn’t an instruction. It was a clearance and ATC isn’t the final authority
That ATC needed remedial training ro a new line of business. If she had continued to operate like that, she's going to get someone killed.
She did go through retraining after this
Scary. Kudos to the PIC of US2998, the only one who did something right here.
Kudos to United pilots too, while they got lost and were being bullied by the controller, they remained assertive and raised enough commotion for FedEx pilots to notice.
Unspoken, why did the FAA think this Controller was ready and able to do her Job? And why did it take almost killing hundreds in order to find out? Blaming, swearing, "shouldn't be"....the airport and her HEAD were both in the fog.
Maybe this was the first time this happened to her? I agree she lost her head. But unless this kind of incident happened before, there's no way to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not until something like this happens. If they know how, people can do their jobs without a problem. Most of the time there is no problems.
@@chrisgast What was "the first time this happened to her?" fog at PVD or sending an aircraft to a near collision?
I disagree, there is a way, training and assessment, to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not. And WHATEVER from the FAA process that got this controller to this point MISSED some very vital clues of behavior that should have been CAUGHT before reaching the point of sending a loaded passenger aircraft on a possible collision.
Argumentative. ("everybody just be quite")
Not accepting information ("we're on an active runway") (think THAT is called not "listening")
Expectations and dismiss information that did not fit that expectation ("you shouldn't be anywhere near kilo") ("you were supposed to...") even when they're TELLING the controller they are NOT
Blame ("doesn't no where the hell he is")
The US Airways captain was smart to stay put until the situation was crystal clear ( a lesson harshly learned at Tenerife in 1977). The United crew was giving bad info to the controller following their wrong turn and the propagation of bad info confused everyone. Once he reported that someone just took off of the runway a big red flag should have gone up for everyone. A pilot on the United aircraft then said they were on 23L but the controller missed it (probably thinking 23R) and tried to clear the US Airways plane for takeoff. Again the cooler head of the US Airways pilot prevailed and they waited until they knew it was safe despite the confused controllers mistaken assurance that the runway was clear. That was a very dangerous assumption by a harried controller who even said they could not see the runway.
There is plenty of blame to go around primarily for the United crew but the tower controller only made matters worse by not hearing the 23L call by the United pilot. The US Airways pilot is the hero in this case.
To clear a flight for takeoff after you have been told by 1448 that they are on or near the ACTIVE runway is close to attempted murder. This airport has no surveillance of the runway and therefore is based on pilots reporting their position. OK, 1448 took a wrong turn when directed to go taxiway N and crossing 16 then onto T. But they reported their position correctly when they realized their mistake. The controller did not take that into account. That would be like not looking at the radar when someone idents because you think you know where they are anyway.
To take a wrong turn on the ground is not uncommon. That is why airports either have ground surveillance or strict rules of reporting where you are. If controllers don't care people will die. And they would have this time if it wasn't for the 2998 who obviously heard the active runway position of 1448. In his mind then either 1448 didn't know where he was or he knew he was on the active runway. Either way he choose to opt for caution and stay put. And maybe he thought that a fellow pilot obviously is better placed to call out position than a controller without visual of the airport.
I'm not sure I'd consider that attempted murder. More like involuntary manslaughter.
The controller thought or expected 1448 to be at 23R, when they were actually at 23L. Even 1448 didn't know where they were until they finally admitted it. With it being foggy and 1448 didn't know themselves where they were, how could you expect the controller to know? Yes, since there was confusion, she shouldn't have tried to clear 2998. But she didn't know for certain where 1448 was, and neither did the 1448 crew.
Kudos to flight 2998... Isn't it great when you're awarded at work for NOT doing something?
controller is somewhat unprofessional - yes United made a mistake - but the controller - ai yi yi. Fortunately, they've since converted 5L to Taxiway Victor, and reverted to just runway 5. Also, it looks like they're using ASDE-X to hopefully avoid this sort of thing in the future.
Somewhat?
Imagine if the UsAir Pilot was as stupid as the tower
ATC: "2998 cleared for takeoff runway 5R, fly runway heading"
US2998: "Cleared for Takeoff runway 5R"
UAL1448: "MA'AM WE ARE ON AN AN ACTIVE RUNWAY"
ATC: "1448, that is a closed runwa-"
*BOOM*
The pilot said 23R looking at Kilo. Which is what confused the controller, the pilots should have had the airport diagram.
And so should the controller. They BOTH made mistakes.
They both made mistakes, but the traffic controller was far more unprofessional, she almost set-up a disaster.
There is a way, training and assessment, to tell whether a person is ready to do her job or not. And WHATEVER from the FAA process that got this controller to this point MISSED some very vital clues of behavior that should have been CAUGHT before reaching the point of sending a loaded passenger aircraft on a possible collision.
Argumentative. ("everybody just be quite")
Not accepting information ("we're on an active runway") (think THAT is called not "listening")
Expectations and dismiss information that did not fit that expectation ("you shouldn't be anywhere near kilo") ("you were supposed to...") even when they're TELLING the controller they are NOT
Blame ("doesn't no where the hell he is")
I can tell that the controller is upset because commercial pilots in particular are supposed to be familiar enough with the airport's layout to navigate effectively on the ground. If you lose your bearings, that's what the taxiway signs are for. Look at your layout chart for the airport which you are supposed to have with you in the cockpit. The FedEx pilot was listening carefully to all communications going on, and maintained safe situational awareness.
FedEx almost hit them. 2998 was waiting for 1448 to get to the gate.
thank god for heads up piloting man...if I was that pilot awaiting departure I would've done the exact same thing...
there are old pilots and there are bold pilots...but not many who are both
The US Airways crew operating Flight 2998 were praised by a US Air spokesperson for their actions of avoiding a near-disaster. An investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board followed and while no fault was assigned to the controller, she was required to undergo retraining before returning to service. The pilots were debriefed by United, received additional training and were returned to service.
Hopefully, both the United pilots and the controller will not make the same mistake twice. That could be deadly.
bullshit. the report was never published. stop spreading fake shit.
Part of the issue is that both the pilot and co-pilot kept talking to the controller.
The controller just as added to the problem
She has an attitude problem
if i am not mistaken, two united pilots are both talking to ATC. doesn't this add to confusion, and isn't it usual for just one to communicate with tower?
Yes, it does. However, I think the one pilot (the one handling radio communications) was having trouble getting through to the controller. So, the other one decided to get on the radio.
no having two voices does not add to the confusion. taking a wrong turn, then mixing up 23L with 23R and screwing up every second read back once progressive taxi instructions were given added to the confusion.
1:55 they were on 23L/5R but reported they were on 23R and looking at Kilo. I don't know why it took ATC so long to figure out that none of that information made any sense, and then she cleared other aircraft to takeoff.
Then the lost aircraft said "we are on an active runway!", and ATC proceeds to tell them to shut up and again clears the other aircraft to take off.
Thankfully the other pilot had the situational awareness to know he'd be barreling into danger and refused the repeated directives to take off.
No offense but that ATC was terrible.
the united crew were just as bad.
@@brianlacroix822 United were confused. ATC was reckless.
Taking a wrong turn in foggy conditions and being confused is an honest mistake. It shouldn't happen but it will, occasionally.
Clearing a plane for take-off when another one just radioed they're on an active runway at the same airport and their location is unclear must never, ever, ever! happen on airport. That's much worse.
They have a map of the airport. Fuggin taxiway Kilo was a bit of a hint...
but the pilots said they were on 23r. just a fuckup all around.
This is horrible. You should be able to trust the Tower when its pitch black. So many could have been killed in that crash.
Yes, you should be able to. But these kinds of incidents are why EVERYONE needs situational awareness - not just you or myself.
I don't know about you man, but I try to avoid decimation in my cockpit.
you know I think sometimes we need to cut controllers a little more slack because sometimes they are looking outside and not quite sure how they are going to pull this off but at the end of the day they still have a plane full of passengers that they need to put down safely, wait that not right...
Though she did do wrong clearing the other plane for takeoff knowing another plane saw kilo. Both parties need to know their airport better.
Yep.
1:54 Astronomia starts playing in the background. 2:36 Music gets louder. 2:40 Music stops, phew.
In the description you say "the pilots provided incorrect position reports"....they most certainly did not, they told the tower controller exactly where they were. And I'm glad the controller got re trained because the way she acted was very very unprofessional. Praise to the USAir pilot for avoiding a disaster!!
Actually, they did provide incorrect position reports. They said they were on 23R when they were really at 23L, until they finally realized it (they were on 23L). Listen at around 1:30 of the video above.
Also, she seemed rushed and was sort of stringing words together close to being inaudible. Rushed seemed to be the catchword.
I believe it was a 757 not a T7 involved in this incursion
good god
This is embarrassing.
Taking advantage of occasion, I'm sorry to say IMHO very idea of allowing controllers to operate without sight/ ground radar sounds to me, as insanity. All controller has to rely on, in order to maintain mental situational awareness are reports of movement and position coming from planes. Whole system relies on them knowing where they are, where they are going, reporting and executing all instructions 100% of a time correctly. Problem is,... every pilot in his career do make wrong turn, one time or another, often even in familiar airport and perfect weather condition. How much more likely this is going to happen in unfamiliar airport, when barely anything at all is visible behind the window? In low visibility, once you take a wrong turn, (which will be the case to many medium and older age planes, as well smaller, foreign and so forth) in many cases there is just no way of knowing about mistake till you reach some intersection where there are signs, which as seen on this video, might happen to be just, too little too late. It's a system of blind, leading other blinds AND more often then less of the time, confused, traveling at 140+ knots, on crossing each other pathways... and hoping everything is going to be an OK... On top: calling it all safe. Add amateurish, arrogant, full of her/himself controller (as on this video) to equation, and once again old FAA rule will be confirmed. in order for things to improve, few hundreds of people MUST die. Close calls, common sense, are never enough to offset corporate interest and economic convenience. Only substantial amount of human blood will do. Only blood finds its way to statistics (word FAA loves), to offset it's claim, how statistically "safe" aviation is. After all only 50 or so people died last ten years in big airline crashes. Fact that another 500 or so only last year died in GA's, and another 10,000 (or God himself only knows how many) could have or almost died, simply does not count. We have "very safe" aviation!
everyone involved in this incident should be fired
Even 2998? I don't think so!
@TheDezz16 Yes she sure does
The lady in the control tower not only should've been fired, she should be thrown in JAIL for attempted murder and negligence. She was told by the pilot that he was on RWY 23L several times, and she still cleared another plane for takeoff on the same runway. Instead of trying to figure out the problem she had an attitude that could've gotten people killed.
No, just negligent/involuntary manslaughter.
some of the mose horrific crashes have happened with males flight crews and controllers...whati is with all the sexism?
A man
You're in a muddle; what are you talking about?
@bhava380 Women pilots?! What about the air traffic controller?! Massive mistake and then she gets all cocky too.
This is why all pilots are required to have all required charts and decimation in the cockpit at all times. The controller did nothing wrong but if the pilots had documentation, there would be no problem at all.
Well, the controller had a bad attitude and didn't keep her cool. If she kept her cool and realized they were lost, then the 1448 pilots would've been the only ones looking like idiots. But she blew up.
That controller should have been fired without question. But i bet that didn't happen in the name of diversity as that seems to trump safety and common sense these days.
lol stop boom 1:05
Always the women pilots ey lol
I swear every time there's a female pilot involved....
Just like with men..most female pilots are simply average, some are excellent and some should get a new job at Burger King
@CTFlyer7 I'm a Pilot. The thing is, female air traffic controllers are amazing, you can have a laugh with them. Female pilots, are very bad with communications sometimes, especially if she's attracted to the pilots she's working with. Yerr the women was cocky, may be she needs to get laid or something haha ;)
And you know this from flying a cash register at Tesco, right? Washing out of flight school does not make you a "commercial pilot" any more than wanking to louise minchin on telly makes you a stud.