One Thing You're Doing Wrong | True Your Kestrel & Your DOPE
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2019
- Are you doing this wrong? In this "How To" video, Joel shows you a method for adjusting ballistic coefficient to match drop data at 600 yards and beyond. Do you have a different method of doing this? Leave comments and questions below.
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A buddy of mine recently asked me what it's like to shoot Precision rifles. I told him... it's like golf but for men!
I have to admire, appreciate, & commend you aswell on your effort & work you put in to making this & other great videos....GREAT job & work - hope you keep it up & Thank You Sir fer sharing !!
eric rumpel thanks!
Great video, I just ordered my kestrel as my only way of doing this without one was to walk it out to 1000yds 100 yards at a time and record my dope manually.
Love your channel. I have had a kestrel for a while but am too embarrassed to ask anyone for help figuring it out. Thank you!
shutout8888 thanks for watching!
I have a 5700 elite ask away my fellow shooting enthusiast
great video. congrats from a brazilian fan of you channel.
Great video I used hornady 4 dof and do similar except I adjust the axial form factor. I do this stuff at first light to avoid effects of mirage and I prefer to do it at 1000yards.
Thank you for the great video. Extremely helpful!!
thanks for watching.
Jeeze!! I thought I saw you in public the other day but wasn’t sure! I absolutely saw you!
I'm sorry you had to see that. I try to stay low profile so as to not scare the children and snowflakes.
If you use polygonal rifling in your barrel you NEED to adjust you BC because it doesn’t damage (dig in and deform) the bullet like 5R and button rifling does.
Think I may add a Kestrel to my gear soon. It seems to have the most friendly trueing interface.
Bill Bakopoulos I think it’s a worthwhile purchase.
I can recommend you a suppressor cover from Black Hills Gear. No mirage then 👍
Joel, there is a better way to skin this cat right in the Applied Ballistics software itself. You used the ol' Strelok PRO method of BC (or speed) change truing. That method does work just as you show. But, it can flaw farther down range. There is a better way built right into the AB software. Under the GUN section, AB allows the user to CAL DSF (Calibrate Drop Scale Factor). This allows you to leave the BC and speed untouched.
If you have an exact BC from shooting over an Oehler, a factory known doppler proven G7 (Berger, Hornady) you should never change BC value. The LabRadar gives you the true known muzzle speed. Therefore base data is proven. So, you must leave them alone.
True the predicted elevation in the curve of flight in the software itself. Measure multiple, quality grouped impact elevations above/below the waterline. Take the average, convert it to actual over/under POI in MILS. Then in the AB Kestrel you can adjust CAL DSF right down to .01mil. Once you adjust the actual impact elevation info into the Drop Scale, * Exit, SAVE and it updates the rest of the bullet flight curve data. Measuring center of group to center of waterline then converting to MILS(or minutes) creates finer resolution for tighter software truing. The closer you true to actual point of aim and closer to transonic range, the better. AB tells you what preferred distance to true impacts in the same DSF function too. You can CAL DSF in AB at multiple verified distances. I think allows you to save 10. This method allows you to create your own extremely predictable custom curve.
Steve R. Thank you. I guess I was aware of that feature, but it always seems so complicated. I never shoot past 1200y and haven’t had any trouble hitting targets doing things the way I do them. NOW, that being said, I’m willing to acknowledge there’s a more detailed way. I just question how necessary it is. 😉 thanks for the excellent reminder though that I’m not smart enough for this stuff. LOL
@@PrecisionRifleNetwork I agree with Steve... and you should Cal your MV at 10% less than what your kestrel tells you the distance you should calibrate your MV at (when you hit "MV" and then select "Cal MV")... then I would shoot farther and calibrate DSF so that I have good data allllll the way out.
With the method you're using, Hornady's 4DOF app may be a better option for you because they recommend that you true between like 500 to 800 yards. Their adjustment of the axial form factor is more along the lines of your preference for adjusting your BC number.
But, with AB's recommendations, you can true your gun with very few rounds (confirm zero, look up what the kestrel says to cal mv at, then shoot as close to 10% less of that distance, and see what your elevation truly is, then correct it on the "Cal MV" screen, and save... it'll track all the way out to that distance and likely farther)... the downside is that you need to have enough distance to stretch out to 10% less of the yard line than when your projectile goes transonic to calibrate the MV and actually true your data. Past that, the Cal DSF comes into play, and it's pretty much the same process-- super easy.
By adjusting the BC instead of going by the recommendations of AB, while using the AB software, you'll see deviations in your trajectory that don't seem to make sense, i.e. making hits farther out but slightly being off on the mid-range stuff. If you haven't already checked out the Hornady 4DOF app (it's free)... I would, because with the way you're doing it, I think you'd like it :) Also, Kestrel is now making a Kestrel with the 4DOF programming.
Candi323 thanks. I have been truing, using the method you are suggesting, for years. It’s detailed and works well. I still use that method occasionally. I have found it easier to tweak the BC and I don’t see any strange errors in the firing solution.
This is the exact debate I alluded to in the video. Both methods work.
Using CAL MV/DSF in AB helps true the entire curve but as you stated, you need to measure out around transonic, and how many people have that kind of distance?
“My” method, which is not mine, but is a generally accepted method, is less complicated, and still works quite well. 👍🏻
Candi323 also I have the new Hornady Kestrel in hand and have been playing with it. According to Frank Galli, and others, it’s better and potentially more accurate than AB. Guess we’ll see.
I’ll be comparing the two in a video sometime soon.
@Steve R or @Candi323, My Kestrel is telling me to Cal DSF at 1376 yards for my 20" 6.5 CM at 2816FPS. I don't have access to anything over 800 yards typically and still have to drive 2 hours for 800. Would you suggest using the Cal DSF closer than 1376 in my case? I've been using the method Joel describes for a while now cuz the custom curves don't seem to line up just right, but if I adjust the BC at 800 it gets me a lot closer.
Helpful
Glad it helped
Great vid. Excellent content.
I have not yet invested in a Kestrel because of the variability of wind. Here’s what I mean; I can determine wind (with a Kestrel) at the shooting position. I can guesstimate it at the target & maybe points along the way by looking at leaves, bushes etc. what I have no idea of is what it’s doing 100-400 feet above the canyon floor. Any thoughts?
Please convince me of the need. I am open to getting one and using it. Thanks.
Long Ranger you definitely don’t “need” it. I really only use mine for drop data. Like you said, the major downside of these things is that they only measure wind at your location. We know that all the wind matters, all the way to the target.
You can certainly look at the vegetation, mirage, etc. and then punch numbers into an equation to get your hold, but the Kestrel does all that for you. It’s just a convenience and speed thing. Up to you sir.
Kinda weird when I liked this video. A black line went across my screen that said “Likes limited on this video” and then it quickly disappeared.
Berger lists the BC of the 6.5 caliber 140 grain hybrid as .311 on the big yellow bullet box. The Litz library inside my Kestrel's database also lists the G7 BC of .311. Not sure why the loaded ammo had you used lists the BC at .300. Once you adjusted into the neighborhood of .311 you were right where you wanted to be. Any thoughts? another good video.
gilream BC always changes with speed and distance. That’s just the number I had to use to get my data to line up best.
Can you please do an educational video on Tremor 3, H59, and new Leupold CCH reticles? I want a MK5HD, but reticle choices are holding me back. I'd like a reticle that makes it easy to hold for wind.
man that's a great idea. Unfortunately I only own scopes with H59 reticles. I didn't like the CCH mainly because the windage hashmarks were 5 tenths instead of .2
H59 has 2 tenths marks. I honestly know nothing about the Tremor 3. Never owned one and I have actually never even looked through one in real life. Sorry about that.
Awesome video....my question....I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor out to about 950 yards at my local range. If I am not shooting past that distance and past the supersonic range, do I need to true the rifle at all? Thank you...hopefully not a silly question.
Not a silly question at all. I would true it up at the max distance you have available. A paper target works best, but it can be done on a clean steel target as well. Just paint a horizontal line across the center of that steel and then measure the drop through your reticle, if that makes sense.
Very good video! What caliber, what action?
Bison 78 Defiance Deviant action. 65 Creedmoor.
Say you go out another day and its 30 degrees cooler. Does the Kestrel use the initial atmospheric conditions
when the rifle was zeroed when calculating drop data on a colder day for example?
Paul Watterson if you have it set to do so, it calculates for the current weather conditions. That feature can be turned off, but I’m of the mind that you want the most up-to-date data you can get.
I turn it on when I first get to the range, get drop data, and turn that feature back off. Then I’ll turn it on after the weather warms up. Basically I don’t want the Kestrel to constantly monitor conditions because, what if you leave it in direct sun? All of a sudden it’s giving you drop data for 110 degrees when it’s only 80. Hopefully that makes sense.
@@PrecisionRifleNetwork Ok great info
Hows the Berger ammo performing...looking to get a case of 6.5cm 140 hybrid for a new build and have good brass left over
wow, just now seeing this comment for some reason. Sorry for the delay. The ammo is excellent! Always single digit standard deviation and low double digit extreme spreads. No complaints from me.
Why not use the AB drag for the BC?
Kyle Kelly because it’s not always a perfect solution. They don’t Re-test all the custom drag curves with each new lot of bullets, so the Litz curves are “outdated”. I’m NOT saying they don’t work. I’m just suggesting people true their data with each new lot of ammo just to make sure.
i was out today with my 338 shooting 1000 yards my kestrel said to come up 7.3 mill which was to high it was 6.8 mill so i need to up my bc then to i get it to match
Yes. Change the BC until in lines up or dang close to it.
Hi, how can you adjust the bc if your are using the custom curve applied ballistic ?
Hi. I’m not sure on that. Sorry. Check out the sniper’s hide forum. Kestrel people are on there and can answer your questions.
If using custom drag curve, you can't change that factor. The only option would be to true the MV.
Or just switch to G7 and true that number, which is essentially creating your own drag curve based on your particular lot of bullets shot from your rifle.
DSF might help if you're in the transonic range, but according to Kestrel it's of little to no value inside transonic ranges.
How often do I need to true my bullet velocity?
Winters Guo I do it anytime I make a change in the system. New lot of ammo. Winter temps to summer temps. Suppressor vs. no suppressor. You get the idea.
@@PrecisionRifleNetwork Why don't you use AB's customized B.C.? And if using the customized B.C. do I need to change the velocity for tuning the DOPE?
Winters Guo I use their drag curves as suggested inside of 600y because they are close enough that you won’t notice errors. Past 600y many people have noticed inconsistencies in those drag curves based on a handful of reasons. It’s wise to test the drop for yourself.
Search this topic on Sniper’s Hide. You’ll learn a lot about why it’s a good idea to true it yourself.
Odd thing happened when I liked this video. A black horizontal line appeared across my screen and in it in white font it said Likes limited on this video and then it quickly disappeared
That is strange. But also doesn’t surprise me. TH-cam has all but completely demonetized my channel. Too many times they’ve asked for my feedback, and I told them the truth! 😂
If I adjust my bc to 600 I m good for 1000 ??
Jim Tau not necessarily. You need to test it at each distance and see what it does.
I noticed you are actually giving some improper advice in this video. You use a lateral line and disregard any left to right dispersion. If you test two conditions in the kestrel you will see the error clearly. Set the wind to 10 MPH from the right and compare to a wind at 10 mph from the left... 9 and 3 o'clock. You will find there is both an elevation offset as well as a windage offset. That accounts for aerodynamic jump. The wind drift line is actually angled from about 10 to 4 o'clock. Anywhere along that line would mean your vertical is correct. Using a horizontal line will look like a high impact for a wind from the left, when in actuality it is not. Check it out... you'll see.
sorry I'm correcting a typo here... a wind from the right will impact high... a wind from the left will impact low... not high as I mistakenly stated above.... sorry if that caused confusion.
Thanks. I'm well aware of the jump you're talking about, but it's minimal inside of 600y with a 6.5CM or any faster cartridge. Obviously I had no trouble truing up the kestrel and putting shots exactly where they were supposed to be at 600y. The kestrel is set to account for spin anyway. Making sure the BC matches the data downrange is important and this method, (Frank Galli's) is the best one i've seen. How would you be able to tell the difference between a botched wind call and spin drift by the way? It just doesn't matter that much. Truing still needs to be done in order to customize your ballistic curve in the kestrel. Certainly spin drift IS a thing and it COULD cause a miss if not accounted for, but this video is not about spindrift. Truing the BC number in the kestrel so it matches with real world data...that's it. ***also, because it's hard to tell in text these days...I'm not grumpy at all or fighting with you. Just having a discussion. Thanks for watching.
@@PrecisionRifleNetwork Throw Frank Gallis name around does nothing to gain the high ground. I'm sure he's a nice guy and all but he missed the point as well. Spin drift is not the same thing as aerodynamic jump. Spin drift happens even in the absence of wind. Aerodynamic jump occurs vertically as a result of wind. As I stated earlier, wind drift actually occurs more along a line from 10 to 4 o'clock, but the exact angle depends on the bullet being used and spin rate. At 6 minutes in to your video you show the group is off to the left and about 1/10 mil high... and it should be according to my point. So your "try" data was actually perfect. Using a 10 to 4 line accounts for a botched wind call perfectly... Better than a lateral line. What you need to do to do it perfectly is calculate the exact line angle by comparing a wind from the left as calculated by the kestrel, to the wind from the right. Try it and you will see I'm correct.
I say 10 to 4, but it may well be more like 9:30 to 3:30, that's why you should calculate first. At 600 yards for my 223 running 88 grain ELDMs at 2840 FPS I get 11.5 MOA up with 3.32 MOA for wind from 3 o'clock, but 12.58 MOA up with 4.46 MOA wind for a wind from 9 o'clock.
EI: The line should not be lateral there should be a 1 MOA slope between 3.32 MOA on one side and 4.46 MOA on the other.
BTW, I'm also not trying to be confrontational, just trying to help you out. Your video is close enough for most guys, but I like to be as perfect as I can. The devil is in the details right.