Tyler seems really fun and entertaining as a person, but I don't like watching the games where he has chat. His backgrounds are distracting and he has the game chat over the bottom of the names, so if I don't know everyones voice, I don't always know who is talking. Also, he doesn't follow the most interesting conversations. We talk to Rope about nothing, while at night, Ed gets to chuckle at a double Fang-Gu jump? The evil team don't trust each other and have confusing info, but we are listening to convos where two good people trade very little info? I wanted him to follow Emma or Pat so many times. 🤣
Coming back to this after it was mentioned on the last weeks stream and this is just such an amazing mind melting script that allows for every horribly wonderful shenanigans to happen.
Hmm who was most responsible for the Evil team winning though? When I go through the list only Nadine and Rope are the ones that seem like candidates. Good never truly dropped the ball, except when tying the vote on Aggie and not outvoting evil on the last Day. Rope was certainly evil's MVP on, tying that vote with Aggie against Nadine. Note that any access Rope had to evil information to tell him who was evil he had to earn. I don't think Kat actually told him anything useful, based on him telling her he was a Politician and going for evil. I am almost certain he used the real Empath's information to deduct that Emma was the Evil Twin when Damien came out as ex-team evil, and then put together what happened. Rope did a great job at reading the board and influencing the votes, not only disrupting world views that had Nadine and Emma as Evil, but also using his ghost vote to tie the vote. Despite working for the evil team, bluffing as empath/drunk maybe poisoned against a real good Empath, Rope was the only evil player except Nadine and perhaps Pat who could vote on this. Since the others were too suspicious. Despite really damaging the good Team as good as he could, most players saw him as possibly good. I think even Jack the real empath had to question whether Rope was the drunk, evil or actually the real empath with Jack being the drunk. Mechanically for Jack, there was no way to tell. That alone was an awesome Play. If we look at team evil, Emma was understandably too passive, as was Pat. Kat did some good plays, but she also dropped the ball when she outed herself as Evil, which made it very hard for team evil to pass information. That put them on the back foot for a few days until the info was passed to Pat. At a time when it became irrelevant since the Snake Charmer stepped in. That leaves Nadine, which is a tough one to call. She as a Snake Charmer was actually able to narrow it down to either Damien and Growlen. She could have gone public with it, but then she was in a twin relationship with the evil twin, Emma. So instead of Aggie vs. Nadine and Damien vs. Emma, it would have been Damien vs. Growlen and Nadine vs. Emma. But it would only have been Damien vs. Growlen if good trusted the good snake charmer, who did not come out on the first day after becoming the good twin. Also, Emma would have been a lot calmer and only needing to fake the snake charmer and not the extra swap. Without Damien’s great play using her confusion, she would have been less suspect. Kat had passed the info on to Pat that Damien was evil and only Damien knew there was no Heretic in play. Information wise, evil would have been back on the rise at that time. So evil could have actually been in a better position without Nadine taking over. Against Nadine's choice to gamble and take over, there is Rope's choice to become evil. While I think it is unclear if Nadine taking over was better for team evil, Rope's choice must certainly saved evil's ass. If he took on the side of good, the evil team would have had no counter to the empath Jack and no ghost vote on Aggie.
Personally I think Kat did alot of heavy lifting for evil even as a night one outed evil, at times being outed evil was even better for her team than if she was just a secret scarlet woman who star passed night 2. I also think that Rope didnt do enough to be considered the *most* important player in evil teams victory, not his fault really he was working for evil pretty much the whole time but the fact that evil werent working with each other most of the game made it really hard to figure out what the "plan" was. Politician is such a wierd role because of how subjective it is
@@EdsonR13 A good question to ask is if team evil would have won, if the Politician had not worked for evil. In general, if the politician puts in a decisive vote for evil, then that is an extremely strong indicator that he is a top contender for MVP for Team Evil. When comparing the Politician to other evil players, it is important to note that he is a good outsider who is choosing to side with evil. Not a minion, demon or turned player. A decisive Vote is not always enough and not the only way to become MPV, but a very strong indicator for a Politician, because his vote does not naturally belong to team Evil.
@@sebastianjohnen9654 I get that but Im not 100% convinced that they couldnt have done it without Rope and I think thats just as important when looking at politician
@@EdsonR13 How? Rope had things figured out when he voted on Aggie. So he does not vote on Aggie. How does Team Evil stop Nadine from being executed? They need at least 3 votes, pat did not seem willing and if Kat votes the chances are high for an extra vote on Nadine. Rope can and will vote on Nadine, so they actually need 4 possibly 5. Even if they survive, they have to do the same the next day, but down the ghost's votes they used and facing possible extra votes. So no evil rise up option. All that without Rope coming out and giving an info dump and thus reducing the number of world views.
Yeah Saint and a Heretic makes a one round winning condition for good. If Saint knows there is a heretic in play they could Nom themselves on first day and be executed and the game is over and they win.
Absolutely true - the trick is the Saint making the leap and trusting that the "Heretic" is telling the truth. ;) Saints have lost games before by deliberately getting themselves executed after falling for an evil player's Heretic bluff. - Evin
This game is fantastic. I have a mechanic question though, and I’ll try and stay spoiler free. At around the 1:40:00 mark, Grolen gets killed in the night after other shenanigans happen. Should that have been a Fang Gu jump, or did the other shenanigans prevent a jump there?
Hey Craig. The Fang Gu jump only happens the first time, otherwise you could potentially end up adding 4 (or in some rare cases, 5 or even 6) extra players to the evil team, which is a little unbalanced. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower I was actually wondering the same thing. So it doesnt matter how a new fang gu is made the jump effect still only happens once per game?
Yep, it's a very rare instance of an ability having an effect even if a role goes out of play. There can only ever be on Fang Gu jump per game, no matter what else happens.
Fisherman info is only helpful when the ST is actively trying to be helpful. Which is a difficult position as they are usually worried about giving the good team to much of an advantage. In this case the fisherman info given to the actual fisherman was actively damaging to the good team, since it killed a good player just to get the actual fisherman info from the pixie. Which made pixie effectively into an outsider, hurting town, rather than a townsfolk.
@@Ellie-rx3jt The Fisherman did not get the info because of the Pixie, they got that info because of the Heretic. In a Heretic game, you actively *need* to get yourself killed.
Emma isn't an Evil Twin, she is an Evil Quadruplet! (Ok fine, she is an Evil Triplet who was drunk and confused her demon for one of the other Triplets.)
Does the Politician ever win with evil? “Most responsible” is a very high bar. I wonder it better might be “most responsible, among players who were never a member of the opposing team.”
The Politician can for sure win with the Evil Team but you're right that it's a very high bar, otherwise it would be a role that would win in most games no matter what. They're *always* going to win with the Good Team if the Good Team wins, and they have a chance with winning with the Evil Team too if the Evil Team wins. For this reason, the Storyteller usually needs to see a little more active engagement from the Politician if they're going to give them the win. One good example I can remember from a live game is a player not claiming Politician all game and on the final day acting like a demon and nominating themselves as a triple bluff. Nearly every good player "saw through" their attempt to throw us off and voted for them. They died, having sucked up all the good votes on the final day, and won with the Evil Team. But this isn't to say that the Politician needs to be *trying* to make Evil win to win with the Evil Team! The Politician started as a joke role to make fun of one of the very early play-testers: Me. I'd had an incredibly bad streak where I'd be on the good team and get to the final day and then somehow talk the Good Team out of a sure victory, just because I was wrong but also very persuasive about who I thought the demon was. The Politician can still win with the Evil Team so long as they were *most responsible* for the Good Team losing, even if they were trying to make the Good Team win. This means that whatever they do, they should do it with passion, conviction, make bold moves, and try to drive the action. Along with all of this, being wrong and still winning is pretty on brand for a Politician. ;)
Depends on the Storteller. I think Rope was certainlly evil´s MVP on this one by a wide margin amoung all players. Had the feeling the Storyteller had not thought about Rope winning before role call and just went with his guts based on Rope not seeming that evil too town square at the end of the game. Seemingly not making any great plays for evil. The Politician is in a tough spot if he wants to be Evil´s MVP. From an evil perspective he starts the game as a possible extra Minion with no bluffs and no evil team info. His only special power is that he registers as good, but he can at any time betray evil and go for a Good win. In contrast there are many evil team players who have powerful powers that can easily net them MVP just by chance even without any strong social or strategic/tactical plays. Poweful ability combined with a strong play and evil team information is almost impossibe to beat. In this game I think Rope played a pefect game for Evil based on his characters abilities and info. His claim as Empath possibly drunk/poisond alone saved Evil´s ass. Then using the fact that he was still somewhat trustworthy he tied the vote on Aggie, when most of team evil could not vote on Aggie. His vote not only made the difference for tying on Aggie, Rope had very obviously checked who Evil was. He could have used his Vote the other way not just losing evil a vote, which needed to replaced but giving one more vote against Nadine meaning evil would have not had enough votes.
the evil twin reads "you and an opposing player know each other" which means they are always paired with a player of the opposite alignment, if the other play no longer has the opposite alignment there is a new twin
I have a hard time watching these US streams compared to the UK ones. I dislike that there are 2 'streamers' and we don't follow the Storyteller around, and it doesn't help that Tyler's sense of humor is an acquired taste, shall we say. It's grating to watch at times. I'd love to follow Edd as an ST solo, or just Daddy Ben!
I’ve never laughed so hard at a game of clock tower than I did at this one.
Came here after watching a VOD of CT BotC saying this is one of the best plays ever. This was fantastic and so entertaining!!
Tyler seems really fun and entertaining as a person, but I don't like watching the games where he has chat. His backgrounds are distracting and he has the game chat over the bottom of the names, so if I don't know everyones voice, I don't always know who is talking. Also, he doesn't follow the most interesting conversations. We talk to Rope about nothing, while at night, Ed gets to chuckle at a double Fang-Gu jump? The evil team don't trust each other and have confusing info, but we are listening to convos where two good people trade very little info? I wanted him to follow Emma or Pat so many times. 🤣
This was a spectacular game so much fun.
Not quite halfway in and this is such a brain-melter.
Coming back to this after it was mentioned on the last weeks stream and this is just such an amazing mind melting script that allows for every horribly wonderful shenanigans to happen.
An hour and three quarters in. Worth the wait. Amazing game!
Oh my word this game! Glorious trainwreck of victory...
i'm glad you saved this one!
Hmm who was most responsible for the Evil team winning though?
When I go through the list only Nadine and Rope are the ones that seem like candidates. Good never truly dropped the ball, except when tying the vote on Aggie and not outvoting evil on the last Day. Rope was certainly evil's MVP on, tying that vote with Aggie against Nadine.
Note that any access Rope had to evil information to tell him who was evil he had to earn. I don't think Kat actually told him anything useful, based on him telling her he was a Politician and going for evil. I am almost certain he used the real Empath's information to deduct that Emma was the Evil Twin when Damien came out as ex-team evil, and then put together what happened.
Rope did a great job at reading the board and influencing the votes, not only disrupting world views that had Nadine and Emma as Evil, but also using his ghost vote to tie the vote.
Despite working for the evil team, bluffing as empath/drunk maybe poisoned against a real good Empath, Rope was the only evil player except Nadine and perhaps Pat who could vote on this. Since the others were too suspicious. Despite really damaging the good Team as good as he could, most players saw him as possibly good. I think even Jack the real empath had to question whether Rope was the drunk, evil or actually the real empath with Jack being the drunk. Mechanically for Jack, there was no way to tell. That alone was an awesome Play.
If we look at team evil, Emma was understandably too passive, as was Pat. Kat did some good plays, but she also dropped the ball when she outed herself as Evil, which made it very hard for team evil to pass information. That put them on the back foot for a few days until the info was passed to Pat. At a time when it became irrelevant since the Snake Charmer stepped in.
That leaves Nadine, which is a tough one to call. She as a Snake Charmer was actually able to narrow it down to either Damien and Growlen. She could have gone public with it, but then she was in a twin relationship with the evil twin, Emma. So instead of Aggie vs. Nadine and Damien vs. Emma, it would have been Damien vs. Growlen and Nadine vs. Emma. But it would only have been Damien vs. Growlen if good trusted the good snake charmer, who did not come out on the first day after becoming the good twin.
Also, Emma would have been a lot calmer and only needing to fake the snake charmer and not the extra swap. Without Damien’s great play using her confusion, she would have been less suspect. Kat had passed the info on to Pat that Damien was evil and only Damien knew there was no Heretic in play. Information wise, evil would have been back on the rise at that time. So evil could have actually been in a better position without Nadine taking over.
Against Nadine's choice to gamble and take over, there is Rope's choice to become evil. While I think it is unclear if Nadine taking over was better for team evil, Rope's choice must certainly saved evil's ass. If he took on the side of good, the evil team would have had no counter to the empath Jack and no ghost vote on Aggie.
Personally I think Kat did alot of heavy lifting for evil even as a night one outed evil, at times being outed evil was even better for her team than if she was just a secret scarlet woman who star passed night 2.
I also think that Rope didnt do enough to be considered the *most* important player in evil teams victory, not his fault really he was working for evil pretty much the whole time but the fact that evil werent working with each other most of the game made it really hard to figure out what the "plan" was. Politician is such a wierd role because of how subjective it is
@@EdsonR13 A good question to ask is if team evil would have won, if the Politician had not worked for evil. In general, if the politician puts in a decisive vote for evil, then that is an extremely strong indicator that he is a top contender for MVP for Team Evil.
When comparing the Politician to other evil players, it is important to note that he is a good outsider who is choosing to side with evil. Not a minion, demon or turned player.
A decisive Vote is not always enough and not the only way to become MPV, but a very strong indicator for a Politician, because his vote does not naturally belong to team Evil.
@@sebastianjohnen9654 I get that but Im not 100% convinced that they couldnt have done it without Rope and I think thats just as important when looking at politician
@@EdsonR13 How? Rope had things figured out when he voted on Aggie. So he does not vote on Aggie. How does Team Evil stop Nadine from being executed? They need at least 3 votes, pat did not seem willing and if Kat votes the chances are high for an extra vote on Nadine. Rope can and will vote on Nadine, so they actually need 4 possibly 5. Even if they survive, they have to do the same the next day, but down the ghost's votes they used and facing possible extra votes. So no evil rise up option.
All that without Rope coming out and giving an info dump and thus reducing the number of world views.
A Fang Gu killing a Heretic has a fun effect if everybody learns that it is a Heretic game.
A brilliant game, the game with this script on twitch last night with Ben as heretic was brilliant too
Yeah Saint and a Heretic makes a one round winning condition for good. If Saint knows there is a heretic in play they could Nom themselves on first day and be executed and the game is over and they win.
Absolutely true - the trick is the Saint making the leap and trusting that the "Heretic" is telling the truth. ;) Saints have lost games before by deliberately getting themselves executed after falling for an evil player's Heretic bluff.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower That sounds about right for sure. Thanks for the reply.
👍👍👍
This game is fantastic. I have a mechanic question though, and I’ll try and stay spoiler free. At around the 1:40:00 mark, Grolen gets killed in the night after other shenanigans happen. Should that have been a Fang Gu jump, or did the other shenanigans prevent a jump there?
Hey Craig. The Fang Gu jump only happens the first time, otherwise you could potentially end up adding 4 (or in some rare cases, 5 or even 6) extra players to the evil team, which is a little unbalanced. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower I was actually wondering the same thing. So it doesnt matter how a new fang gu is made the jump effect still only happens once per game?
Yep, it's a very rare instance of an ability having an effect even if a role goes out of play. There can only ever be on Fang Gu jump per game, no matter what else happens.
One of the greatest games ever played of botc.
Fisherman info often seems to be more entertaining to onlookers than helpful to the players...
Fisherman info is only helpful when the ST is actively trying to be helpful. Which is a difficult position as they are usually worried about giving the good team to much of an advantage. In this case the fisherman info given to the actual fisherman was actively damaging to the good team, since it killed a good player just to get the actual fisherman info from the pixie. Which made pixie effectively into an outsider, hurting town, rather than a townsfolk.
@@Ellie-rx3jt it was damaging because there was a heretic. Heretic means you should kill good
@@truemajority also, the longer the games goes the better info you should get as a fishermen. Doing it night 1, you should get 'eh' info
@@Ellie-rx3jt The Fisherman did not get the info because of the Pixie, they got that info because of the Heretic.
In a Heretic game, you actively *need* to get yourself killed.
Emma isn't an Evil Twin, she is an Evil Quadruplet!
(Ok fine, she is an Evil Triplet who was drunk and confused her demon for one of the other Triplets.)
Does the Politician ever win with evil? “Most responsible” is a very high bar. I wonder it better might be “most responsible, among players who were never a member of the opposing team.”
The Politician can for sure win with the Evil Team but you're right that it's a very high bar, otherwise it would be a role that would win in most games no matter what. They're *always* going to win with the Good Team if the Good Team wins, and they have a chance with winning with the Evil Team too if the Evil Team wins. For this reason, the Storyteller usually needs to see a little more active engagement from the Politician if they're going to give them the win. One good example I can remember from a live game is a player not claiming Politician all game and on the final day acting like a demon and nominating themselves as a triple bluff. Nearly every good player "saw through" their attempt to throw us off and voted for them. They died, having sucked up all the good votes on the final day, and won with the Evil Team.
But this isn't to say that the Politician needs to be *trying* to make Evil win to win with the Evil Team! The Politician started as a joke role to make fun of one of the very early play-testers: Me. I'd had an incredibly bad streak where I'd be on the good team and get to the final day and then somehow talk the Good Team out of a sure victory, just because I was wrong but also very persuasive about who I thought the demon was. The Politician can still win with the Evil Team so long as they were *most responsible* for the Good Team losing, even if they were trying to make the Good Team win. This means that whatever they do, they should do it with passion, conviction, make bold moves, and try to drive the action. Along with all of this, being wrong and still winning is pretty on brand for a Politician. ;)
@@EvinDonohoe Cool. Thanks for the perspective!
@@q-tuber7034 Any time!
Depends on the Storteller. I think Rope was certainlly evil´s MVP on this one by a wide margin amoung all players. Had the feeling the Storyteller had not thought about Rope winning before role call and just went with his guts based on Rope not seeming that evil too town square at the end of the game. Seemingly not making any great plays for evil.
The Politician is in a tough spot if he wants to be Evil´s MVP. From an evil perspective he starts the game as a possible extra Minion with no bluffs and no evil team info. His only special power is that he registers as good, but he can at any time betray evil and go for a Good win.
In contrast there are many evil team players who have powerful powers that can easily net them MVP just by chance even without any strong social or strategic/tactical plays. Poweful ability combined with a strong play and evil team information is almost impossibe to beat.
In this game I think Rope played a pefect game for Evil based on his characters abilities and info. His claim as Empath possibly drunk/poisond alone saved Evil´s ass. Then using the fact that he was still somewhat trustworthy he tied the vote on Aggie, when most of team evil could not vote on Aggie. His vote not only made the difference for tying on Aggie, Rope had very obviously checked who Evil was. He could have used his Vote the other way not just losing evil a vote, which needed to replaced but giving one more vote against Nadine meaning evil would have not had enough votes.
Shouldn't Nadine picking Grolen once she became the Fang Gu have made it jump again?
oh nevermind "the first outsider", my bad
1:39:00 I am not convinced the evil twin would get a new twin. Nadine is still the twin, just not good anymore.
the evil twin reads "you and an opposing player know each other" which means they are always paired with a player of the opposite alignment, if the other play no longer has the opposite alignment there is a new twin
This game is vintage BotC - it gets better with repeated viewings!
I have a hard time watching these US streams compared to the UK ones. I dislike that there are 2 'streamers' and we don't follow the Storyteller around, and it doesn't help that Tyler's sense of humor is an acquired taste, shall we say. It's grating to watch at times. I'd love to follow Edd as an ST solo, or just Daddy Ben!
"Empath"?! Absolute nonsense!! There's no such thing as an "empath", it's just a bluff... Please retract this video at once
What a game 😅😂😂😂😂
a little too insane for my tastes
Beginning so good but the ending so bad. Veteran players played like a dumb.