Its a year later, but yeah, the Vigormortis would *have* to ignore Outsiders and Minions for it to be consistent with one, other neighbor abilities, and two, to prevent the luck of the draw from saying "Oops, you can't use half of your demon special ability."
This was one of the most beautiful evil games I have ever seen but tbh it mostly seemed very lucky since Chiz didn't really coordinate with his minions much (on claiming mutant almost making Simon seem evil or even on the vote on final day). I'd have loved it had everything that happened been part of "The Plan" from the get go.
Thinking about it from this game, I think it'd be an interesting house rule to jinx cerenovus wit evil twin: "You may make someone mad that they 'are the good twin/ have an evil twin'." Although it might just be one of those things that sound interesting on paper but don't make for interesting gameplay.
I guess you could technically do that by having the Cere point at Evil Twin to imply the "good twin" (for how it actually would run in-person), but then it really just turns the game into "Is this Cerenovus or Evil Twin?" and the only way it really works is when they stick to choosing good twin for madness every night. Also, there's a huge issue with doing that: who does the Cere-mad player say is the Evil Twin? Just about every choice they make will deny it. If the person doesn't deny it because they're good (to save them from madness break), then that makes two people that guaranteed know either Cerenovus is in play or the person claiming good twin is evil. It's not going to spread much misinformation because one of those two is allowed to privately explain what's going on without saying they know the other person is Cere-mad. I agree with you that I don't know for sure if it'd be interesting, but it feels like it'd be more likely to out Cerenovus (and not spread misinformation) more than anything else.
I think Daddy Ben has been running Vigormortis correctly. Daddy Ben just probably forgot since the last vigormortis game. I remember an NRB episode which the Vigormortis poisoning is crucial to the evil team play.
Ben has been choosing the closest Town neighbor to poison, even though the alamanac says it's the choice of the ST, which direction. I think his way may be better - less overpowered perhaps, but I will stick to the almanac for now. If both neighbors are equal distance, then of course it's up to the ST.
@@darbyl3872 I would not say it is overpowered since the job of the story teller is to make the game as even as possible the longer it goes. If anything, it helps the ST balance the game easier.
@@darbyl3872 Characters should be played as intended, or you're going to run into the dangerous territory of players misunderstanding how the game works and not being able to solve it, having false impressions of characters (or the game itself), or worse, spreading their false rules to other players to perpetuate the previous two issues. There's a reason STs will clarify things like jinxes or how they run madness at the start of a game. Everyone needs an even playing field so they're on the same page and can play a fair game. It's understandable to make a mistake and correct it vaguely or say you'll clarify after the game. It's understandable to say "For this game, I would run the character this way." as Ben did (while acknowledging he now understands it). However, you can't just go around saying "I'll run it this way because I like it more." The players aren't your playthings to play the game you think is best. Yes, you're the deciding factor on rules, but you're supposed to be making the game more fair and fun for everyone. Nerfing a Demon because you think it's overpowered (spoiler: it isn't) isn't fair to your players. You aren't respecting the players' time and you aren't respecting the designer of the game.
I came up with the W̶o̶r̶s̶t̶ best character and I Just had to get it out somewhere. Illusionist (Minion) The demon thinks they are a good character. Every night* you choose who the demon kills. You keep your ability if you die. [The Demon is good][+1 Minion][+1 Outsider]
Pros: 1. Good team effectively has -2 useful characters. 2. The demon won’t show as evil to characters such as the seamstress or the bounty hunter. 3. Story teller can tell the demon “drunk” information. Cons: 1. The demon may realize that they are the demon and advocate for their death. 2. The evil team most likely won’t ever learn what type of demon they have. 3. If the Illusionist is ever poisoned/drunk the demon will learn what they are.
You have a good point, I hadn’t realized how many similarities this has to the Leech. Yeah it’s basically identical function wise the more I think about it. Ah well.
I agree that this probably comes from the same core idea as Lleech (i.e., what if the demon thinks they're good), but there are enough differences that it would play a fair bit differently. Being able to die makes a big difference, and losing a Minion does too. Then there are also a bunch of minor interaction differences, like that Illusionist!Demon triggers Fortune Teller and droisoning them prevents a kill. Not to mention they keep their Demon ability! I think it could be fun to try this out, I bet it would fit into very different kinds of scripts than Lleech.
I’m all for elaborate plans, but I think that many days of “real” information didn’t do the rest of the good team any favors. It’s a team game, and it was becoming harder to figure it out for everyone by the day. Great game, excellent plays, rough information sharing.
Is Avery trying to claim they came up with the term Double dong? because i watched the game when it was first used, and Avery laughted their head off when someone else said the term Double Dong. and has used it since because they liked the term, However they did NOT say the term first.
I’m not gonna lie to you, I thought that I was the person to come up with “when you bong a gong you get the dong” but if that’s not true then I’m apologize. Memories bad sometimes hahaha
I don't get Chiz's logic of killing Ekin because of a clockmaker 2. If there is a real clockmaker with a 2, he would have just eliminated a demon candidate.
I know it's kinda boring, but why on earth would you not just artist solve the twins situation immediately? There is literally no downside other than evil claiming twins, which you would still execute one of them.
Simply put, No Dashii and Vortox. You don't necessarily know if your info is reliable, and in a situation as volatile as the Evil Twin, taking that kind of a risk could lead to an early loss. Not to mention, just because you are the Artist doesn't mean the others believe you are. It could be a bluff.
Old comment but if I remember correctly I was having a hard time getting people to believe me around this time. My social reads weren’t social reading, all my solves were falling apart, I was just having a rough go getting trusted. So I wanted to put in a fail safe
This channel needs a serious reboot. I don't want to see this inane app. We bought hardcopies of BoC to enjoy real life interaction. How about making this channel useful to those people?
If you've got a spare few thousand bills lying around, I'd happily accept your donation to film some in-person games. In the meantime, I'd recommend just not watching content that doesn't interest you. You're welcome to stick around of course, and we'd love to have you, but I reckon you'll just be frustrated by all the inane, useless videos we'll inevitably be making.
@@mikesmith1678 "Dictate your rules"? Hardly. Since releasing the game and migrating to the app, viewership of this channel has decreased quite a bit. If the app was their main focus then why work to release the hard copy of the game at all? Early on they made amazing videos (that certainly didn't cause thousands) of in-person experiences with the game. It was a driving force behind many of us backing the game. My comment was nothing more than a reflection of this.
@@DakotaAvery23 ah, it’s linked with online contingencies then! But also, I guess it’s 12 and not, say, 11 or 13, because a two Outsiders set up is considered more interesting? What about irl games?:)
Another illustration of the First Rule of Clocktower: The true world is likely to be a very unlikely world. (Because evil has agency.)
..and the agency's name is Ben
@@TimlagorThe PinkerBen Agency
I see what happened here. These guys are so experienced that you have to swap the demon around like 4 times just to throw them off lol
This is peak S&V. I love it.
Mad game. One word from malashan changed the game. If you didn't ask rez's specific role, good probably wins
This is the perfect accompaniment for making dinner right now!
10:12 Hey you got a shoutout too
@@davethefish5 I forgot I watched this one live until I heard my name 🤣
"wow that's really long"
"chiz, can you just put that away and focus on the game, please?"
rofl perfect comedic timing 1:37:10
Its a year later, but yeah, the Vigormortis would *have* to ignore Outsiders and Minions for it to be consistent with one, other neighbor abilities, and two, to prevent the luck of the draw from saying "Oops, you can't use half of your demon special ability."
This was one of the most beautiful evil games I have ever seen but tbh it mostly seemed very lucky since Chiz didn't really coordinate with his minions much (on claiming mutant almost making Simon seem evil or even on the vote on final day). I'd have loved it had everything that happened been part of "The Plan" from the get go.
just finished watching the ‘drunk and disorderly’ game to see a new upload, so happy..
Thinking about it from this game, I think it'd be an interesting house rule to jinx cerenovus wit evil twin: "You may make someone mad that they 'are the good twin/ have an evil twin'."
Although it might just be one of those things that sound interesting on paper but don't make for interesting gameplay.
I guess you could technically do that by having the Cere point at Evil Twin to imply the "good twin" (for how it actually would run in-person), but then it really just turns the game into "Is this Cerenovus or Evil Twin?" and the only way it really works is when they stick to choosing good twin for madness every night.
Also, there's a huge issue with doing that: who does the Cere-mad player say is the Evil Twin? Just about every choice they make will deny it. If the person doesn't deny it because they're good (to save them from madness break), then that makes two people that guaranteed know either Cerenovus is in play or the person claiming good twin is evil. It's not going to spread much misinformation because one of those two is allowed to privately explain what's going on without saying they know the other person is Cere-mad.
I agree with you that I don't know for sure if it'd be interesting, but it feels like it'd be more likely to out Cerenovus (and not spread misinformation) more than anything else.
buddy I hope you know about the Harpy now
I think Daddy Ben has been running Vigormortis correctly. Daddy Ben just probably forgot since the last vigormortis game. I remember an NRB episode which the Vigormortis poisoning is crucial to the evil team play.
Ben has been choosing the closest Town neighbor to poison, even though the alamanac says it's the choice of the ST, which direction. I think his way may be better - less overpowered perhaps, but I will stick to the almanac for now. If both neighbors are equal distance, then of course it's up to the ST.
@@darbyl3872 I would not say it is overpowered since the job of the story teller is to make the game as even as possible the longer it goes. If anything, it helps the ST balance the game easier.
@@darbyl3872 Characters should be played as intended, or you're going to run into the dangerous territory of players misunderstanding how the game works and not being able to solve it, having false impressions of characters (or the game itself), or worse, spreading their false rules to other players to perpetuate the previous two issues.
There's a reason STs will clarify things like jinxes or how they run madness at the start of a game. Everyone needs an even playing field so they're on the same page and can play a fair game. It's understandable to make a mistake and correct it vaguely or say you'll clarify after the game. It's understandable to say "For this game, I would run the character this way." as Ben did (while acknowledging he now understands it). However, you can't just go around saying "I'll run it this way because I like it more."
The players aren't your playthings to play the game you think is best. Yes, you're the deciding factor on rules, but you're supposed to be making the game more fair and fun for everyone. Nerfing a Demon because you think it's overpowered (spoiler: it isn't) isn't fair to your players. You aren't respecting the players' time and you aren't respecting the designer of the game.
Avery, you only have bad soul reads that involve Jacqui.
most peop would stop you at "Avery, you only have bad"
@@DakotaAvery23 I was about to call out those fighting words, but then I noticed the username.
@@johanmilde just because Avery is being mean to herself doesn’t mean they aren’t fighting words
@@emmacone-roddy762 If these self-fighting words continue, they are bound to escalate until we end up with a spectacular Dakota vs Avery grudge match.
@Kota Holliday I blame your CT mum and 250 spices.
I came up with the W̶o̶r̶s̶t̶ best character and I Just had to get it out somewhere.
Illusionist (Minion)
The demon thinks they are a good character. Every night* you choose who the demon kills. You keep your ability if you die. [The Demon is good][+1 Minion][+1 Outsider]
Pros:
1. Good team effectively has -2 useful characters.
2. The demon won’t show as evil to characters such as the seamstress or the bounty hunter.
3. Story teller can tell the demon “drunk” information.
Cons:
1. The demon may realize that they are the demon and advocate for their death.
2. The evil team most likely won’t ever learn what type of demon they have.
3. If the Illusionist is ever poisoned/drunk the demon will learn what they are.
You have a good point, I hadn’t realized how many similarities this has to the Leech. Yeah it’s basically identical function wise the more I think about it. Ah well.
I agree that this probably comes from the same core idea as Lleech (i.e., what if the demon thinks they're good), but there are enough differences that it would play a fair bit differently. Being able to die makes a big difference, and losing a Minion does too. Then there are also a bunch of minor interaction differences, like that Illusionist!Demon triggers Fortune Teller and droisoning them prevents a kill. Not to mention they keep their Demon ability! I think it could be fun to try this out, I bet it would fit into very different kinds of scripts than Lleech.
I wonder how many games would result in the minion accidentally having the demon kill themselves, since the minion doesn't know who the demon is
@@skruffytiger2002 They would! The minions always learn the demon at the start of every game (unless poppy grower). Doesn’t matter the demon does not!
DADDY BEN!
Exquisite s&v.
I’m all for elaborate plans, but I think that many days of “real” information didn’t do the rest of the good team any favors. It’s a team game, and it was becoming harder to figure it out for everyone by the day. Great game, excellent plays, rough information sharing.
Is Avery trying to claim they came up with the term Double dong? because i watched the game when it was first used, and Avery laughted their head off when someone else said the term Double Dong. and has used it since because they liked the term, However they did NOT say the term first.
I’m not gonna lie to you, I thought that I was the person to come up with “when you bong a gong you get the dong” but if that’s not true then I’m apologize. Memories bad sometimes hahaha
I don't get Chiz's logic of killing Ekin because of a clockmaker 2. If there is a real clockmaker with a 2, he would have just eliminated a demon candidate.
Everyone bailing on Avery while he's trying to explain himself was chefskiss
I use she/her pronouns ❤
37:20
LoL
I know it's kinda boring, but why on earth would you not just artist solve the twins situation immediately? There is literally no downside other than evil claiming twins, which you would still execute one of them.
Simply put, No Dashii and Vortox. You don't necessarily know if your info is reliable, and in a situation as volatile as the Evil Twin, taking that kind of a risk could lead to an early loss. Not to mention, just because you are the Artist doesn't mean the others believe you are. It could be a bluff.
@@TheKatti5000 well not really. Use the question, and then solve if you've been poisoned or vortox later.
Old comment but if I remember correctly I was having a hard time getting people to believe me around this time. My social reads weren’t social reading, all my solves were falling apart, I was just having a rough go getting trusted. So I wanted to put in a fail safe
Daddy ben!!!!!❤
This channel needs a serious reboot. I don't want to see this inane app. We bought hardcopies of BoC to enjoy real life interaction. How about making this channel useful to those people?
Any suggestions? im sure tpi would be willing to listen to your ideas
If you've got a spare few thousand bills lying around, I'd happily accept your donation to film some in-person games. In the meantime, I'd recommend just not watching content that doesn't interest you. You're welcome to stick around of course, and we'd love to have you, but I reckon you'll just be frustrated by all the inane, useless videos we'll inevitably be making.
@@mikesmith1678 Pot meet kettle. lol
@@mikesmith1678 "Dictate your rules"? Hardly. Since releasing the game and migrating to the app, viewership of this channel has decreased quite a bit. If the app was their main focus then why work to release the hard copy of the game at all? Early on they made amazing videos (that certainly didn't cause thousands) of in-person experiences with the game. It was a driving force behind many of us backing the game. My comment was nothing more than a reflection of this.
Don't mix up your opinion for the general opinion :)
Is there a particular reason why most of these official stream games are in the 12 player range? Is that player count considered the sweet spot?
That is generally considered the sweet spot for online games due to over talking
@@DakotaAvery23 ah, it’s linked with online contingencies then! But also, I guess it’s 12 and not, say, 11 or 13, because a two Outsiders set up is considered more interesting?
What about irl games?:)
@@arthursimsa9005 irl games normally go up to 15, and then five travelers on top. It depends on the setting and how many are in your group