Games on screen with timestamps for people asking.. 0:00 BDO 0:29 Blue Protocol 1:24 Project BBQ 3:12 Elyon 4:48 Crimson Desert 5:07 Dungeon Fighter Online 5:08 Lineage 2 5:11 Maplestory 5:12 Legends of Mir 2 5:15 Myth of Soma 5:17 Everquest 5:18 Everquest 2 5:20 Star Wars Galaxies 5:23 WoW Classic 5:48 Lost Ark 6:38 Archeage Unchained 10:13 Phantasy Star Online New Genesis 11:03 Aion Cinematic 11:49 Chrono Odyssey 13:17 Tower of Fantasy Anything else is a repeat.
The MMO genre has gone from immersive fantasy worlds where you can lose yourself inside of a grand social experiment to overly complicated slot machines.
@@billklatsch5058 Not really. Immersion requires an emotional investment to the world, its characters and outcomes. That has always been the least important selling point of MMOs. People tend to play MMOs for the sense of belonging or superiority
@@1vaultdweller I agree that it depends, if you play The Witcher or Skyrim your immersion ends in about 100 hours, the world stops spinning when you complete all quests. Now if you play WoW or FFXIV you play for years and see cities being built and destroyed, characters getting older, the story continues. This is also immersion
Couldn't agree more. LITERALLY fucking genius. Best editing decision from kira that I've seen tbh. A brilliant joke without having to make it the entire focus of the video is underappreciated these days.
I am reminded of City of Heroes, a MMO with a Western developer and a Korean publisher, that died because of a clash of business cultures. The outpouring of support from the game's Western fanbase was absolutely tremendous but it was ignored utterly by the publisher who pulled the plug on one of the best communities in gaming history
Yeah it was still profitable and we wanted to buy it. They lied and said they had received no viable offers. I play it still on Homecoming private server.
Yes, indeed. We Korean gamers always say something like 'this twisted game needs to be reset'. We want to change industry, but clueless about how to untie the knot.
@@catzor4795 sadly, it won't. Most often, monetisatiom isn't devs' decision, but publisher's. As long as the publishers are expected by their shareholders to always grow, always make more profit, the monetisation _will_ get worse. The only way out of this vicious cycle is a better economic system, one that doesn't champion greed as a virtue. A system where devs who actually make the games have something to say about how they are monetised would also help, but we're in the gamer space and people will lose their minds if I call that system by its name.
@@Cube-xm6vt honestly, most True Gamers™ I've seen seem to believe the lie that microtransactions keep the industry afloat and devs employed. As for the antisemitism accusation is it aimed at me? Because if so, I'd like to see some evidence. And if not, yeah, it sadly often happens that bigotry sticks with people when they go left. But just by the virtue of their economic beliefs changing, they'll probably start engaging with more content that will explain to them why they're morons for believing that shit. Baby steps.
I once asked my 10 year old Korean student how to get better at some game he was talking about. He answered without even stopping to think "You use money".
@@chriscatama5425 I think that actually helped empathise their point. The formula for getting good at that game was so simple that a 10 year old didn't even need to pause and think. If it's clear to a 10 year old, it's probably clear to 95% of Korean gamers.
It's crazy but it is the norm for Korea, there are TON of manhwas that the whole story is about how a poor person somehow manages to be amazingly OP in a futuristic VR game and they become rich by selling the items in the game market. The stories even imply that most of the top ranking players are people that spend a lot of money for OP items
It's fun to read as a fantasy novel, but it's quite shitty if it's applied to real products. A simple example of something similar would also be open world pvp... It's fun on manga/manhwas/anime but not so much on games.
Just finished reading this new VR MMO webcomic called The Strongest Florist that surprisingly focuses on a brute that gets OP titles quickly with his ambition to build a flower shop. However, other real life MMO manwha like Return to Player, Omniscient Reader and Dungeons & Artifacts do focus on obtaining overpowered items from the in game shop.
The thing is that videogames grant a means to escape from "reality", having a plane field where everybody of any status is equal and can reach equal things. P2W destroyes that aspect
From what I heard the "stamina" system is not only because of milking the players but also a governmental law. Also it allows easily to launch in China without actual monitoring of game time.
When games become a glorified casino, I'm out. That beeing said, I do spend some money on cosmetics ect. like Warframe. But I see what I buy. Screw these gambling mechanics. Oh, and people who think they are "better" than other players just because they opened their wallets are delusional, imo.
Not sure Warframe is a good way to explain your point as I gotten cosmetics for free buy getting the plat by selling items it game. But removing that fact ya Warframe is nice in that regard. Retail WoW would be the worst thing you can do in gaming as there in-game shops, a sub fee and the game itself. Ironically Among Us is the best example of what us from the west want. Just skins + base game, no random elements or power boosts.
Honestly glad I gave up Warframe. They've been letting their old content go to buggy hell in favor of 'new content', which is really just old content packaged up as 'new'. And they just kept adding new grind in on top of old grind (which is just more of the same thing, locked behind more RNG or money), which made it impossible for me to get anyone to stick with the game.
I'm trying to teach this to my six year old right now. It's pretty hard for him to grasp that the free games are the most expensive. I tell him if he wants a paid game, mommy will buy it. If he wants a free game, he ain't getting my password.
i agree with Augusto try phantasy star online 2 and phantasy star online 2-NG is coming out this year and the beta is great its prob one of the best F2P MMORPGS ive played and if you play the PSO2 then when PSO2-NG comes out you can just transfer your char to it
Every Korean MMO looks exactly the same even when they aren't pay 2 win they force you to pay for literally every cosmetic item or else you look like a level 1 noob the whole game because you can't earn any cool cosmetics.
They don't "force" you, if you "need" that cosmetic item it is YOUR problem not theirs, and last time I checked, they are a business and they need to make money to continue giving whining audiences content
@@reinaldofernandez this attitude is exactly why those MMOs are slowly being accepted.A large part of peoples fun is customization and self expression in an online environment. Theres plenty of PROVEN and less scummy ways to earn money in mmos that dont rely on cosmetic lootboxes.
@@Fox_Olive Personally, I’m okay with cosmetics costing money, so long as it is a flat, clearly outlined price for a guaranteed and specific item/thing. I don’t appreciate or enjoy monetary price tags for the “chance” to potentially get a specific item or skin you want. That’s just anti-consumer. You’re allowed to charge whatever price you want for something but you need to be transparent about what that something and price is, so consumers can make informed choices about how they spend their money. That’s like the fundamental cornerstone of Democratic free-market ideology, which even I will admit is often being subverted already in the West- take literally any advertisement or commercial for cars as an example.. most of the time it’s a bunch of HD clips of the vehicle doing glory shots through different terrains, not details about what the car actually has features-wise, what it doesn’t, and for what price. But either way, I’ll still always fight for transactional transparency in products and, for those that don’t offer it, I will vote with my wallet by not buying their shit. There are enough indie buy to play games out there that I can spend my time off from work in to suffice.
@@reinaldofernandez actually they pretty much do force it. as the devs know that making your character look unique is a big thing in mmo (looks are the true end game) and kmmo are notorious at charging $30-$60 on a single outfit, that in some Kmmo are a loot box that you MAY get the outfit that fits your race. yes MMO need money to run, but that is overpriced. And more often than not the cosmetics, or ability to use/wear any cosmetics comes with a big price tag as they do not drop any cosmetics/transmog items in game.
I would like to point out that in Phantasy Star Online 2, you can buy just about every payed for cosmetic with in game currency. Abit allot of it sometimes but grinding that currency isn't that hard either. Oh wait, Phantasy Star Online 2 isnt Korean.
I used to be someone that only played F2P mmos. I eventually noticed I never reached endgame in those games mainly because getting there is as you guessed it pay to play. I finally bit the bullet and got FFXIV. Havent looked at a F2P mmo ever since. I don't have to worry about what content this patch is only for the VIPs or whales. Love having access to all game content man.
Really appreciate how professionally you make these analysis videos. Your objectivity and direct assessment of issues concerning the MMO genre are big reasons why I'll always keep coming back to watch.
Corporate Korean-style MMOs are gaining in popularity but then so are kickstarted indie MMOs that feature none of the gross monetization mechanics/planned progression lag inherent to Korean titles.
@@Feridire Right, I should've clarified more, but Korean developers aren't stupid and if it looks like they're gonna start losing market share to the higher quality indie MMOs they'll likely start switching up their tactics.
@@phillipmitchell2254 Their monetization schemes are way, way more profitable, and as long as they can afford to pump out games with bigger worlds, better graphics, better cinematics, more advertising, people will get hooked, especially kids and young teens. It sucks but it's here to stay. And yeah indie MMOs are tricky, as MMOs require a ton of money and manpower to make and operate. Not usually the strong suits of an indie developer.
@@thatcanadian4460 I mean... you can always opt in later, when or if they prove themselves to be legit and worthwhile. I won't be kickstarting any MMOs since I've seen too many start and fail in the last 10 years, but if one manages to get funding and ends up good, hell yeah I playing it.
I remember getting a lucky pull in lotro and recieving a cool mount. My excitement died a bit when I found a slightly modified version available in the cash shop. If you can just buy everything then nothing means anything.
The thing is that even THAT doesn't really work as a rule, because part of the way some of them keep the money flowing is by continually releasing more and stronger stuff that people can pay for. So you spend countless hours grinding to get the strongest gear, and then they release new content and boom, you're back where you started. Over and over again, you're at the mercy of the developer's balance choices on new content. They can be fair with it and make even, gradual progression, or they can set a power spike that sends you back to the stone ages relative to the people who pay for their gear. Maybe there are some games where you can actually keep up by simply playing the game a lot, but there are some where you either can't or you're looking at not only playing a lot but being in a very hardcore guild(probably with p2w guildmates at that) as well. My point is that even "p2w=play harder and you're ok" is a fallacy. In some games it may work out, but that just means you got lucky with devs; when you accept p2w there is always a risk you'll end up with devs that continually suppress you by releasing power-spiked p2w content and you will NEVER be competitive(except for maybe the 2 weeks before new content patches).
@@mintacgaming8924 People just don't understand that simple tip. DONT BE COMPETITIVE! Case closed, you good to go now. There's no p2w that will bother you if you aren't competitive to begin.
Everyone can have their own opinion, and if someone likes them that's perfectly fine. But, I'm just very glad that you made this video and talked about it honestly and realistically. I'm so tired of the crowd saying "uh you have to play every korean mmo to say if it sucks" or "you're a western s*premacist if you say korean mmo's suck", because whenever I googled the question that's the only forum discussions I found. I tried liking Aion, I played it for months and got attached to my toons, but it's just so ugh. I'm sorry to say it but I hate the game and its stupid scroll mechanic. The artstyle isn't my cup of tea either (anymore; I used to love anime inspired artstyles in games but they start looking the same after a while), though that's of course just my taste, and I dislike the gritty "naturalistic" style of many western games just as much at times.
Dude, agreed. The "gritty" look has only magnified and it needs to be toned down. That and the "plastic heroes with ridiculous proportions," i.e Overwatch. Two extremes that both look terrible imo
Really enjoyed this one, you're bang on about the psychological effects and quite frankly it's disgusting that companies are allowed to do this sort of stuff to incentivize gambling & other activities.
@Hitroman government and churches been into public manipulation since... inception. so does everybody. not gonna wash them dishes? no sex with your wife. not gonna crunch at work? ill make your daily job miserable and so on
@Hitroman Because the US' anti-drug and anti-texting-and-driving campaigns have totally worked out. Yeah, warning people not to do stupid shit on a government level totally works...
@Hitroman Oh without a doubt, especially because their own government latgely coordinated the drug epidemic in the first place. I'm with you on not trusting a government like the US' to properly regulate harmful things in life, but that definitely doesn't mean I'm okay with deliberately predatory game design instilling gambling mentality in young people.
I live in Korea, and I love games, especially well-made games with great storylines, but I noticed that people are usually in different world when we talk about games. Some of them don't even know what Witcher is.
But it started there. Remember when the West banned lootboxes? On the other hand the Genshin (although Chinese based) players think has the best monetization when in fact it's just another gacha devil.
Just an early endorsement, I'm Korean and I agree that Korean MMOs are not well designed for western audiences. Lots of essentially regionally accepted norms that we don't enjoy in the west (I'm in the US)
Thanks man, be interested in your opinion once you've finished the video as a Korean. I sourced a lot of my opinions over the years from speaking to Koreans and (poorly) translated articles. I'd like to know how close I got it
@@KiraTV1 Honestly I think you hit the nail on the head. The general distinction imo is the player base that, as you said, was the focus of the design. I'm also making a game myself, and one of the biggest distinctions in that way I can share is that the average US gamer will say something like "games need to have fewer costumes and transmog to preserve the identity of armor" etc, while a Korean gamer will say "If I play a game that has no purchasable costumes, I have no way to show how much I enjoy and appreciate it" so they almost see it as a NEGATIVE if a game doesn't feature a way for them to "show appreciation" which for Koreans is always money. One thing ill add that you kinda touched on is the player difference too. Koreans generally pride themselves on raw talent or obtained skill, so the concept of "buy to win" is kinda moot as no purchase will hide or fake natural talent, while for westerners we see ANY system that makes something "easier" as a convenience win or in some way pay to win, and therefore almost instantly considered bad. I think Koreans maybe have a healthier acceptance of enjoyment and consumerism when it comes to hobbies. A wow player will profess for hours about how fun wow is but also about how much they hate the cash shop, while in Korea that distinction would be much harder to find. If the game is good and lends itself to skilled gameplay, it almost doesn't matter to Koreans if it's pay to win because it's still good outside of it. (I don't necessarily agree, just saying)
@@XeroXenTruSin meanwhile its against norms to tip (show appreciation) a waiter/waitress in a lot of asian cultures, but in America its basically a standard. Funny how its reversed in that regard.
Yeah that was definitely something I could have added as it's a point I've even been aware of , that the conversation doesn't doesn't really happen in kr about p2w. A lot of westerners also hate the "cutesy" aspect of kr games , elyon being a recent example with the colourful cars driving around being an immersion breaker. There's a lot of facets to this conversation but I'm glad you're on board with what was included as someone who likely has the insight to back it up. Appreciate the feedback mate
Koreans do love their grind aka killing the same mob packs for hours and hours for days on end. This is not something the western player likes (on average) which is why many quit something like BDO cause that is basically the entire pve. Tbh if BDO did not have extensive Lifeskill systems it would proaby be dead by now. Western audience loves dungeons, raids but so far Korean MMOs I've played that offer raids and dungeons are the worst offenders of p2w.
This is the worst part about kr mmos. They are the best looking mmos, but are p2w as fuck. Ashes of creation is looking to be great mechanically, but it looks ugly imo.
Same. Haven't found another one that fells like Rag. Online since I stopped playing in 2007, and I have tried all the major ones like WoW, SWTOR (in the end we wanted Kotor 3, not a MMO) and such
We have seen the pay to win mentality in Eve Online when Korean and Chinese groups came onto the server and since being purchased by Pearl Abyss the attempt to more heavily monetize the game by introducing more cosmetics for the ships and focusing on improving the pvp aspect of the game where anyone not pvping seems to be becoming more of the game mechanics.
i literally was just talking to some one about this a few hours ago, i was curious about why korean culture creates wales in such a stark contrast. a bit bizarre this shows up on my feed that soon after. good shit
Because video games in Korea have far more social status than in the West. Flash was a super star known in households for being the best starcraft player in the world well before LoL caused an esports boom in 2012. Think of games in Korea no different from other ways rich people display their wealth and class. Think cars or other expensive collection hobbies. People spend millions on cars just to display to pelple and it's the same in games. That person with the best gear in the game is essentially the same as a guy will million dollar cars or a guy with watches worth 100k. It's all a flex, the gear score or dps is literally just the money measuring meter. The reason korean mmos are hellishly grindy and impossible to reach anywhere near the levels of the whales is to emphasize the class gaps. 'Those filthy plebians will never come near the power of my account because they are poor.'
@@Sammysapphira that is an interesting take, and I can definitely agree with what you're saying. I've never thought of a game account as an object, and I suppose it ostensibly is. Great point, though. When I think of my competitive game accounts, I share that with other people even if they aren't intimately involved in that community. Makes perfect sense in a society more heavily revolved around video games, purchasing success is as good. Thanks for your input, genuinely thought evoking and I have no disagreement with anything you said.
Korean MMOs tend to be extremely grindy, and Asian MMO's in general usually take monetization to another level... though it seems other game companys from other countries seem to be trying to more closely emulate their monetizing practices as time moves forward. I will say, that if the grind is done correctly, meaning extremely engaging and smooth ability to rotation and pathing, then I tend to like a little grind. If it's extremely repetitive and slow to execute, thats when I have an issue. Edit: Good grind example, for me at least is Black Desert. It's extremely satisfying and for the most part doesn't feel like the traditional grind. Battling huge groups of enemies packed together, using wide reaching skills and abilities, all the while being able to either move quickly or reach far enough it doesn't actually matter. A disappointing example was, for me at least, Genshin Impact. The game starts with so much potential and was really fun... but it slowly devolves as it tries to get you more involved within it's monetization system. It's semi-false "Endgame" literally has you do tooth pulling grind to actually progess. Spending money would alleviate this somewhat (through energy systems and upgrade materials), but even then it would have you slowly gain ranks to at some point render much of that moot as attaining specific ranks alters the game difficulty. This is positive only in that enemies give you better rewards for defeating them, but also means that your characters better be a specific level or else you will have a hellish slog ahead of you to level em up.
I actually glad the game has stamina system. Can you imagine the time we will waste just for "1 more domain"?? Since I've already AR 55 and got nothing to do beside 4 daily mission and probably some domains, I will spend hours into domain to farm artifacts to feed my characters artifact. no working, no pause, just domain.
I remember a BDO fansite that followed the game from alpha and even did an interview with pearl abyss, you could see the dev just accepted that the korean audience sucks and if your game doesn't fit into that mold, it will fail, the fansite dude was also defeated and lost all hope when seeing the changes. That game in alpha was very, very different, only the core combat gameplay was the same, even the p2w costumes was something they didn't want to do but the korean MMO players just wouldn't buy cosmetics that did nothing.
To be honest BDO fanboys are so dumb, no matter how much you criticize Pearl Abyss for doing shaddy business, they will attack you and blame you instead. They are so dumb, they don't realize Pearl Abyss is laughing at them for milking fanboy wallet.
Tf? Why would you not buy a cosmetic just because it doesn't have functionality Its literally a cosmetic, you should wear something because you want to look a certain way Like holy shit 💀
@@AdonisOuranios Because life is different. If you see a nice top or a cool jacket, most people in the west will buy it, if they like the look of it, but since lifestyle in most of the eastern countries tends to be very expensive, they think more than twice, what they need and want to buy. This system translates to games. Something you can play for free most of the people will definetely play there. Then spending money on the game has the same thought progress as above. Since its virtual, you get no value out of something that does nothing besides "looking good ingame", so they attach functionality to it. That way, it will generate value inside the game, because it acutally does something for your gameplay and grind.
@@OlafJorigson and so the skill aspect is diminished since the game is designed to milk these idiots, there are situations in which you can say a certain practice is stupid and inferior, this is one such case, i mean you do get no value out of it either way because if it is pay to win you will be stumped by all the other paying players so it will end up with the same effect as a visual cosmetic with no mechanical effect but it will cost MUCH MUCH more it's pathetic and it is stupid, at this point the korean gaming landscape is nothing but filthy filthy polution, spewing the game desing equivalent of Chromium dust over to other landscapes.
Korea doesn't control the MMO marketplace...I don't know why Kira acts like they do. Korea is a small market for anything, period. The American and European markets dwarf the Korean market and they set the trends, not the other way around.
This made me glad I never fell into that MMO hell that most of my friends fell into. It didn't begin with an MMO, per say, but rather a competitive FPS shooter modeled after CSO. Then after that, the loot boxes happened, then the gachas.
@@PresidentFunnyValentine CSGO is the worst counter striker ever made, the game is made as gambling machine. Sure CSGO skins didn't make different to weapons stats, but the point is that Gaben and Valve cares more to the skins and lootbox and it makes them forget to fix the real issue with CSGO which last for more than 5 years. This is why many CSGO veterans leave the game, even myself i rather play old good CS like CS Source than garbage like CSGO.
Amazing video! I hope for the future we keep watch on these mechanics (like countries slowly banning loot boxes as gambling) and make it NOT be a thing. 100% if companies get to do what they want and if chieldren grow up with f2p games this will be normalized, but things can be done about it.
Yea I just do not Play Korean MMOs and its not just the cash grab...its the damn grind, I dont mind grind but Korean MMOs grinding is like mind numbing and becomes un fun in a sense
If you didn't have to grind, you'd finish all content far too fast, the game wouldn't hold players, and the game would quickly shut down. Grinding is inevitable in the MMO genre. Its the degree to which it is pushed. Originally TERA was fine in this regard. The direction its gone nowadays stops me from playing it because its just endless recycled dungeon grind. Notice the simultaneous lack of good western MMOs.
@@WoonStruck you missed the point lol I said I dont mind the grind but the Korean MMO grinds are terrible...and nothing has been as bad is like BDO and Lineage......
My only experience with Korean MMORPGs was AION, and I'm _soooo_ glad it's in the past. Proud to say they never saw a dime from me 🙄 Edit: wrong. I forgot that Black Desert Online is Korean too, and I can say I've had a much better experience with that game than I had with AION.
Did you play the Gameforge port in the west or the actual game from NCSoft? Because the original game from NC was a masterpiece, and still is largely played in Korea to these days
@@Metalwrath2 well, the fact that we have to be manipulated in order to monetarily support a product we are using - and that wouldn't exist without a customer base - is a problem that we - as the users - cause, and the companies have to face as a hard truth. I agree that creating artificial problems is not the best way to go about this, but then again look at BDO. A game that can be 100% enjoyed just by buying it for 5 quid, or also enjoyed by spending s**tloads of cash in it.
This is the reason Kira why im done with korean mmorpg,they can make the best mmo on the planet,but we all know whats going to happen after 6-12 month (p2win) they starting too lose people and game is dead after 3-4 years!I still playing gw 2 and definitly im gonna play until the ashes of creation comes out!
An interesting case I've experienced is a Korean MMO called Dragon Nest, which eventually converted most of its cash shop-only inventory into shops that can be purchased from with in-came currencies (I don't know if this was just in overseas regions or in Korea also). Tons of things that used to be inaccessible to people playing for free can now be obtained with hard work (including cosmetics which, oddly, now play as big a role in your stats as non-cosmetics... you basically need two sets of armor, weapons, accessories, etc). Of course, that's not to say they didn't double down on cash items which reduce grind, that's a given, but in doing so they also removed the loot box system (dragon eggs) entirely, which I don't think ANYONE who played the game or MMOs in general could have seen coming. I still can't tell what this is indicative of for the game's health but it's pretty interesting at least. :/
Back in the day Lineage 2 was Subscription based and had no pay 2 win at all even being a Korean mmorpg, it was truly a masterpiece of a game before it got destroyed by p2w.
*destroy by p2w* still remember the army of Gold sellers and Multboxing selling adena and gear. If the game dont have cash shop, Player will create it themself. Even WoW is p2w. all top guild use Gold sellers gold cause its help for speedup thier progression and Win the First. Where the Competition matter.
@@user-Cata7sti7ma7 RMT and pure P2W are different things mate, some games has items that can ONLY be acquired through cash shop and no other way, and you are completely diregarding the competency of RMT hunting a company can have. Blizzard is a joke btw
@@jamessunderlandseventh7410 its dont exist any company that succesfully win in any regard against RMT. RMT is a billion profit business and only grow. In addition, the RMT can also allow the purchase of cash shop items at a lower price. taking advantage of the rates change depending on the regions or simple laundry money. Money always brings a significant benefit. There is not a single game with an economy that I do not consider P2W. so personally this is no longer a valid reason not to play a game that you like. the same way I'm not going to commit a not alive because the IRI is Heavy Duty P2W.
@@user-Cata7sti7ma7 How sad, it seems like you never played any game that has/had heavy emphasis in RMT hunting. I was referring to Character/ACC bound Cash shop only items, that are literally only acquired through cash shop and cannot be traded. No game is completely free from RMT, but there is a lot of variance on how effectively and at which scale games/companies reduce them.
Hm...This has opened my eyes to see not just in front of me, but what lies on the other side of the hill. Alright, first off obligatory "been a gamer for over 17 years and am now 32 years of age. My first PC game was on the DOS, I played vanilla Everquest, WoW and 34+ MMO's start to min/max" insert. I never really thought about it, but you're right; there really is a cultural difference at play, not to mention all the behind-the-scenes deals and interactions. This video is extremely well done and I will be sharing this, you've got my sub, for what it is worth.
@@Shayoni ESO is more than cosmetics. ESO+ is legit required if you plan on looting stuff. there are so many mats in the game and the crafting bag is the only place to actually store large amounts.
Yeah I hate when people try to claim eso+ is just optional. Craft bag is an absolute must, especially if you want to craft. Also, dying your armor or outfits you need it too. Eso was good and I have over 1500 hours in it, but haven't touched it in over a year as I can't justify paying monthly for a game that when it dies, I won't be able to play again. Oh and the way they do expansions now is awful. Buy the expansion at AAA price, then you'll eventually need to buy crowns for a dlc, or sub to eso+.
They got to earn money somehow tough and in my opinion, using a monthly subscription is the best way of doing it. I agree that the expansions are overpriced and I agree that the catch with the looting bag is very bad, tough they have to get "some catch" to stuff, so people buy it. Cosmetics are a nice way to earn money, but its not very reliable and very subjective (you don't need cosmetics, so a good bunch won't invest their money for this). I think Josh Strife Hayes explains the problems with MMOs in general pretty well.
@@UnexplainedHoveringSpheroid If you want to hear certain viewpoints on a specific part of the subject, yes, as with all things. MTX for example has been talked about to death, so perhaps someone just wants to skip that and listen to the rest of it, or perhaps you want to hear their viewpoint on a specific part of the subject, or maybe you just want to go back over it for your own POV comments and want to make sure you didn't miss-hear something. Plenty of reasons for timestamps to exist
@@cheken4326 Such impatience. You are also running the risk of taking segments / comments out of their intended context due to the absence of a wider framing / context provided by a video as a whole. You run the risk of misinterpretation when you reduce something into soundbites in such a fashion. Were it a 45 minute video then your statement would seem more valid.
Hi Kira, just popping in to say that I'm happy to see how much your channel has grown. Almost 50K now, you succeeded bro, you will get to 100K in no time. Keep it up! Also nice Abroad in Japan reference 😉
I think we have already moved to the Korean model. Maybe not to the full extent but the F2P mindset has already taken hold. It's been going in that direction for a long time. I quit EQ2 many years ago because it converted over to a F2P model. ESO started as B2P and vowed to never have a cash shop, loot boxes or not use a sub model and look at it now. Even games like WoW that are still sub model are employing some of the same gimmicks simultaneous to the box price + expansions + sub. It's ludicrous and why I'm pretty doubtful we will ever have another great MMO. Maybe AoC but they are already selling cosmetics like crazy and the game isn't even in beta. MMOs are in a sad state and look to be staying that way.
I'm watching a video describing how an internet Cafe works as if its a foreign concept, while being old enough to see the rise and fall of internet cafes in America.
You didn't hear??? It's been back for years now. A dev leaked the source code and now there's a bunch of fan servers. And it's completely free. No subscriptions. No cash shop. And the population is booming. Google City of Heroes Homecoming. There's a topic on the message board that tells you how to install it.
Btw, I loved Ragnarok Online back when they let us beta test it in the West. Once it was subscription only I had to stop playing though since I was just a kid back then, had no income and my parents would never spend money on a game subscription for me :'c
only cucks play official RO server. True RO fans skip that whole subscription thing and play in private servers since 2005. No seriously, their Athena engine is leaked on internet since 2005, making fully custom private server is possible filled with features that official server won't be able to imagine.
@Waldel Martell WoW is buy the game, buy expansions, pay subscription and on top of that has a disgusting cash shop and is p2w tho. (Buying and selling WoW tokens makes more money than you could ever grind in the game)
A lot of Korean MMO's share such a similar art style and draw from the same inspirations that they start to feel generic. I've also noticed that many (not all) tend to lean on the grindier side and opt more for a pay-2-win microtransaction shop rather than charge a monthly subscription. I feel this tends to hurt the overall quality and enjoyment of the core game itself. There are of course exceptions to the rule but this is just my observation.
it makes me laugh every time someone shows some hype for an upcoming KMMO, as if they have forgotten the massive dumpster fire that has been EVERY single KMMO to date. it’s like they’re an abused wife who believes the husband every time he says he’ll change.
@@KiraTV1 horribly outlandish considering they love to complain about the previous titles but act like the new ones are gonna be any different. Good games are fun, bad games aren't. Sometimes you can forgive the bad and still have fun, but if you yourself say you aren't having fun, why would you get excited for the next release?
Korean MMOs: Expensive, more grindy than an actual job, beautiful as hell. I personally like the system that GW2 brought in: Buy 2 Play + entirely cosmetic microtransactions. This way, you have a steady stream of income from shiny outfits without handing anyone an I WIN button for whipping out their credit card.
a lot of people are attracted to them because of the art(2d,3d,animation etc.), my god the art direction on most of these games is awesome to me lol the dream would be a sensible game design team a korean art team and a publisher that doesnt want to suck the life out of you, a game like that would pop off hard imo.
I have to agree, the art direction in these games is always fantastic - even the more 'grounded/realism' ones like Black Desert Online still put all of the western MMO's to shame still in design and visuals. Even TERA, for example, had wonderful animations for the combat systems for the time, and still stands out to me when I look back years later.
yep, the art direction is the only thing that has me even _consider_ ever trying any of these, but I know all too well the game design is often, imo, atrocious (i.e. excessively grindy to encourage spending)
@@shutup1037 FFXIV came out a year before ESO and TERA came out 3 years prior to ESO's release and both looks heaps better. Picking on that one in particular because it's the worse looking western MMO that's come out recently. It's completly potato visuals.
I'd be interested to see a company release an MMORPG with two versions on launch, the F2P (cash shop Korean version) and a Monthly Subscription version (cosmetic shop only). Completely separate and non-transferable servers for essentially the same game. They'd need different base rates and throttling but could be developed the same for the most part.
This kinda already happens. A lot of f2p mmos started as sub only games, but they were failing as sub only so they would switch to f2p p2w within a year. The ones I can think of are, lineage 2, aion, tera, wildstar, and blade and soul. Thiers a ton more i just can't think of them right now.
Just wanted say I’ve only discovered your videos recently, while the topics are somewhat interesting I’ve found myself mainly watching for your nuanced and mature opinion. I feel your objectiveness in your analysis, use of credible sources and ability to offer both sides to an argument is highly refreshing in a sea of title baiting youtubers who either constantly use hyperbole to add drama, or pump out videos with little to no real substance for the views . You are under subscribed IMO! Best of luck to your channel in the future mate.
He said in the beginning not all of these clips are from korean mmos, he uses those videos as filler for his video to not only look on a black screen xD
Yeah lots of people making this comment without reading that , funnily always about blue protocol and ignoring the fact there's also multiple Chinese and western games in here plus more Japanese ones too.
@@KiraTV1 Because it's literally the 2nd MMO you show in a video talking about Korean MMOs. If you can't even be bothered to have appropriate B-Roll why the hell should anyone bother to watch the video.
Korean mmorpg be like: sexy female characters (preferably with minimal clothing) with lighting eyes, and male buff characters with long haircuts and lots of donate
I thought it might have something to do with a lot of the Asian cultures having a thing for flexing having money. Like those stories of Chinese families fighting over who pays the bill but translate this culture of face through money into games. My grandparents aren't Chinese but belong in a generation where self-made rich people tip very generously solely to flex money so my grandpa used to buy expensive things to flex and throw parties to flex and my mom had a boss from about the same age group as them who once tipped every waiter in a restaurant they ate at a big valuable crunchy bill each for merely greeting him.
I actually don't mind the gender lock. It made me stop caring about character creation so much that I got to actually playing the game faster... ...and then realizing your other points are bang on and drop them. Win some, lose some, lol.
@@karsonkammerzell6955 For me character creation is a big part of the game, I create a character I can relate to and that helps me immerse in the game, that's why gender lock is a deal breaker for me specially when the class I wanna playa is some kind of Loli doll furry kawaii sh*t LoL. It's great you don't mind about it I wish I could do it too but I can't. Have a great one bro.
Great video! We all love Korean MMOs but people have to grow up and start getting pissed off at games that try to play mind games and treat us like idiots or seek to take advantage of people with self-control issues.
Sadly even if every person who watched this video never spent a penny on the games , it wouldn't change anything even remotely. It requires a widespread reaction or actual government intervention at this stage on a world wide scale
You should interview "Steve", he is a famous Korean and maplestory youtuber and he makes english content, would be cool to know different perspectives.
x3theAran59? that would be really cool, he is from Malaysia not Korea though, he plays Korean Maplestory and would have some good insights. I would love to see it
@@NabsterHax it's better to have a balanced monetization that both free players & whales can enjoy, like BDO. everyone is satisfied, and the company has enough funds to keep developing the game, resulting in a healthy MMO.
The tittle first made me chuckle. Kira is at ease with speaking his mind after all so no surprise there. But the tittle isn’t just click bait. He then proceeds to explain the whys and the how’s. KiraTV has explained, in my opinion, the logic behind such a daring declaration. I agree that the monetisation in Korean games is extreme in many cases and so common that it’s expected. The games otherwise are generally gorgeous but shallow. It doesn’t make them bad per say, but for myself, it’s not enough. And if spending money is the only way to compete successfully, that’s a quit moment for me. Thank you for this video Kira. Stay safe. 👍
And Aeon it took the same amount of xp to go from level 49 to 50 as it did to go from 1 to 49. I am still psychological traumatised by trying to hit level cap.
Think a lot of these games can be fixed with a small change using BDO as an example, The basics of it would be include the cash shop items in the drops pool for mobs and only have these drops available if you have the Value Pack active creating a monthly sub requirement. Should be easy to manage as it would be database changes.
Bdo will never be good until it adds actual skillful pve content If you want a PvP game play tekken, the copium that bdo players have for the PvP is astonishing for how p2w it is. PvP in mmos are side content that are never meant to be balanced or fair since it's an RPG with player power. Only rarely does an mmo have a truly competitive PvP scene like in old wow wotlk through mop 3v3 or guild wars.
@@Sammysapphira If you enable customizable arena pvp, where everyone has the same possiblities for stats by a point-buy system, its possible to have a competetive, skill based PvP scene, but yes, there are basically none of these.
Pay to win destroys the meritocracy of the game. Even as I get older and can afford to pay to win, I choose not to. It's a betrayal of the purpose of the game - to reward the players who put in the work, in as closed an environment as possible.
Money talks. Why do you think even western AAA devs have turned to scummy lootbox systems and try their hardest to defend these money grabbing mechanics.
@@kyoken8691 not only that, but they want into the eastern market more than they give a shit about western gamers. Eastern gamers have long embraced the shit sandwich of MTX and devs just are trying to convince us to eat it too.
@@JakShadwin that's because Asia is the biggest market of F2P games. CN, JP, KR and SEA easily eclipse profits generated by Western countries since the f2p games is part of the gaming culture here. Western publishers just want a piece of the pie
Aka. You want every culture to change because you're the right one and the enlightened one and need to "open people's eyes". Get off your fucking high horse lol.
@@kyoken8691 there's almost always a massive backlash that results in getting those systems removed, though. money does talk, and westerners still mostly refuse to pay.
You hit the nail on the head man, I'm a long-time fan of eastern mmos, I played them growing up, despite my tolerance to their marketing and E-shop decisions I have to agree, they suck and nothing is changing anytime soon.....unless....
Really excellent summary. Nice to see someone examine this issue without vitriol or pretense. Amazing to see you at 50k after subbing when you around 5k.
the biggest reason korean mmo's end up bad is the simple fact that they just dont seem to get the rpg part of the term mmorpg and compensate for it with cashshop items and other character dooddads to help players make their own stories.
Having Pay to Win or shortcut elements in a game, is no different from using steroids or performance boosting drugs in competition. I will not support this, in any shape or form. Either your game is an even playground for everyone, or it is a waste of time.
Great video, man. I exclusively play korean mmo since early 2000s but have now stop being committed to it (2018). You brought up a lot of good points that I agree. I enjoyed the kmmos I've played though. I don't mind the grindy nature of the game (in fact, I enjoyed it). The deal breaker for me is when the cash shop / loot boxes gets too much. I played less than a handful of titles but I stick to them FOR A LONG TIME. So naturally, I could see the shift of the game ..or rather, the developer's; focus from providing fun in-game contents to just milking the player's wallet with cosmetics and pay to win/progress items. And the trend keep increasing for as long as the game is up (looking at you, Granado Espada). And that is when I'm so done with kmmos.
@KiraTV, I'm interested to know your thoughts on the following points as well. I believe that our generation (1980-1995) saw the rise of MMORPG with the peak of WoW (we were young or young adults when MMORPGs rose). We grew up playing MMORPGs, but our generation is now growing older, they have jobs now and don't have as much time now to play games, but they still want to compete. I feel this shift towards "p2w" or "pay to skip time" is directly targeted to us. The best P2W model that I've seen that no one ever complains about (or I haven't heard of people complaining about it) was Guild Wars 2, and that's because they had an easy to reach capped gear. If someone p2w and wins 2 weeks of progress (getting exotic or ascended on GW2) instead of p2w and wins 2 years worth of progress ( getting mythics on Archeage), it suddenly becomes okay-ish. I also agree that lootboxes should be banned or made 18+ as they are directly targeted to minors.
Yaaaaaas the gamigo love gif lmao. Yeah i don't get that culture. Make the money problem even worse, let's push that in your hobby as well. Feeling not bad enough? Hold my beer. :P
@voltaicbore03 Oh wow, i didn't know! I think in china it is "kinda" the same as in money wise and were you are working. I am not 100% sure but i heared that it's very hard do break out of what your parents were. Like your parents were dish washers therefore thats your place, i hope that makes sense (and that i recall it correctly). It is just strange to me since this payment model costs far more then a sub plus a box prize. But i guess it makes sense, since like you said, the status and that you can basicly burn money with no issue. I hope that it will change over time but i also think that is a bit of western fault as well. Like we are trashing the planet with our waste and the throw away mentality, which came also from the massive economic growth. And you can't really fault other nations then if they want a bite of it too. A bit rambly but i hope you get my point. Thank you for your comment. 😊 Also sorry for that political stuff, it's always hard to get it right and that it makes sense, especially if you are using a different language (english is not my native language). ❤
Duh, they're cash grab 99% of the time. Theres some that shine but as we've seen in the past, they've always turned to "Gimmie da money or you get no fun PEON!"
Honestly, for me the problem with MMO's comes up when you have to buy them first, and then there's still P2W mechanics in them. I can forgive aesthetic payment stuff (like buying skin packs for Titanfall 2) where you can show off some of the more unique designs that the creators worked on. But if I buy a game and then have to also pay for the ability to keep up with everyone else, I'm not going to stay invested in that game unless it has both a really good story and gameplay. I understand in regards to F2P games because the microtransactions are how they make their money. MMO's with a subscription service should strive to make a good story and gameplay so that players will want to keep playing. Growing up where games were just the thing that came in the package, you bought the game so everything for it was right on that PS1, PS2, Xbox or PC disc... has just made it so... detestable to join into the modern games because they're so filled with gambling mechanics that it takes me out of my enjoyment. Yeah, you can ignore them, but when a game goes out of its way to shove its big 'ol lootbox mechanics in your face, it gets really obnoxious and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
5:54 as I wrote earlier somwhere, the most FAIR for us people would be something like DLC, big updates to the game with just customization items. For example You have here Free to play game, if you like the game you can kind of buy the game for 5-0-60$ and you will get all those item shop items that are just cosmetics because the game isn't pay2win in any sorts. Then the developer released a big update to the game which is set as DLC with new playable content maybe class etc, and you can again buy this DLC for 20-40$ and again you get a pakcage of cool armors, mounts that are just cosmetic stuff, some magic effects to the weapons that are also pure cosmetics etc. The bundles of items for buying the game or DLCs is a lot cheaper than buying them separatelly from item shop. That way the game cannot bring us too mutch GRIND because people cannot pay to skin grinding and some people will just leave if the grind is too mutch. So the game should work just like all other single player RPG games, where you can grind but it isn't pain in the a$$, and at the same time you play with other people. Also that is removing lazynes from developers, most of the time they will make one skin and demand 20$ for it, whchi is bullsh*t. So you will ask, if there is no grind, everyone wil do content really fast and when nothing to do will leave the game. So this is the point where the game must be good itself, not just brnging people ot play it just because of getting levels and grinding items, if after getting everything the game have nothing to offer, then the game is bad designed, the mechanics itself are just as simple as boring and everyone leaves. The good combat is the core, the ai to create problems for players to solve in battle is also core of a good combat mechanic, where play skills matters the most. The good amount of possibilties with skills, free resets to try different builds and making really hard content at end game, that will take time to master the game by getting better and better. And giving cool cosmetic stuff when beat an hard Raid or dungeon so when someone wars an cosmetic for beating any end game content, they will know wow this guy is a god in this game, he beat it. Most of mmorpgs aren't very good, people are playing them just because others play them and also they get better loot, but when they get everything, they realize the game don't have anything awesome to offer. If they want to get some money from subscription for example, then I think the best option is cryptomining. You pay 5-10$ per month or while playing the game takes around 20% of your graphic card power for cryptomining, that way you don't pay from your credit card, instead they are using your PC power to pay for the servers, and their workers. So if you don't play game too mutch, then don't pay 5-10$, 20% of your PC will work for them as long as you are playing.
Games on screen with timestamps for people asking..
0:00 BDO
0:29 Blue Protocol
1:24 Project BBQ
3:12 Elyon
4:48 Crimson Desert
5:07 Dungeon Fighter Online
5:08 Lineage 2
5:11 Maplestory
5:12 Legends of Mir 2
5:15 Myth of Soma
5:17 Everquest
5:18 Everquest 2
5:20 Star Wars Galaxies
5:23 WoW Classic
5:48 Lost Ark
6:38 Archeage Unchained
10:13 Phantasy Star Online New Genesis
11:03 Aion Cinematic
11:49 Chrono Odyssey
13:17 Tower of Fantasy
Anything else is a repeat.
because American is low imagination, no action, talk only on TH-cam
Thank you.
Thank God no Ragnarok Online
Id cadangan lmao what are you even talking about
What is the one in 8:45 ?
The MMO genre has gone from immersive fantasy worlds where you can lose yourself inside of a grand social experiment to overly complicated slot machines.
It depends on the MMO. Korean MMOs for sure, but not every MMO is Korean.
Wait, MMOs have always been the least immersive genre in all. If you were looking for immersion you would play single player
@@1vaultdweller Depends on what you understand under immersion.
@@billklatsch5058 Not really. Immersion requires an emotional investment to the world, its characters and outcomes. That has always been the least important selling point of MMOs. People tend to play MMOs for the sense of belonging or superiority
@@1vaultdweller I agree that it depends, if you play The Witcher or Skyrim your immersion ends in about 100 hours, the world stops spinning when you complete all quests. Now if you play WoW or FFXIV you play for years and see cities being built and destroyed, characters getting older, the story continues. This is also immersion
"I really love Korean mmo's" saying that and showing the clip where you were in full masochist outfit is pure genius xD
I was thinking the same thing 😄
Couldn't agree more. LITERALLY fucking genius. Best editing decision from kira that I've seen tbh.
A brilliant joke without having to make it the entire focus of the video is underappreciated these days.
Thanks guys
Early lineage 2 basically if you played solo and didn't bot.
A great summary of sucking mechanisms.
I am reminded of City of Heroes, a MMO with a Western developer and a Korean publisher, that died because of a clash of business cultures. The outpouring of support from the game's Western fanbase was absolutely tremendous but it was ignored utterly by the publisher who pulled the plug on one of the best communities in gaming history
Yeah it was still profitable and we wanted to buy it. They lied and said they had received no viable offers.
I play it still on Homecoming private server.
Yes, indeed. We Korean gamers always say something like 'this twisted game needs to be reset'.
We want to change industry, but clueless about how to untie the knot.
Next generation of young game devs will fix that.
"clueless about how to untie the knot"
stop tightening it
these games only get made like this because they get money
@@catzor4795 sadly, it won't. Most often, monetisatiom isn't devs' decision, but publisher's. As long as the publishers are expected by their shareholders to always grow, always make more profit, the monetisation _will_ get worse. The only way out of this vicious cycle is a better economic system, one that doesn't champion greed as a virtue. A system where devs who actually make the games have something to say about how they are monetised would also help, but we're in the gamer space and people will lose their minds if I call that system by its name.
@@Kickiusz Gamers normally: "HEIL HITLER"
Gamers when they learn about microtransactions: "WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!"
(they still hate jews)
@@Cube-xm6vt honestly, most True Gamers™ I've seen seem to believe the lie that microtransactions keep the industry afloat and devs employed. As for the antisemitism accusation is it aimed at me? Because if so, I'd like to see some evidence.
And if not, yeah, it sadly often happens that bigotry sticks with people when they go left. But just by the virtue of their economic beliefs changing, they'll probably start engaging with more content that will explain to them why they're morons for believing that shit. Baby steps.
I once asked my 10 year old Korean student how to get better at some game he was talking about. He answered without even stopping to think "You use money".
Then everyone stood up and clapped while giving you a promotion 😅
You couldve remove 10 year old and youll get better feedback
@@chriscatama5425 I think that actually helped empathise their point.
The formula for getting good at that game was so simple that a 10 year old didn't even need to pause and think. If it's clear to a 10 year old, it's probably clear to 95% of Korean gamers.
I don't believe you
You are stupid if you think this is not the norm for modern "gamers" @@orange_sauce5951
It's crazy but it is the norm for Korea, there are TON of manhwas that the whole story is about how a poor person somehow manages to be amazingly OP in a futuristic VR game and they become rich by selling the items in the game market. The stories even imply that most of the top ranking players are people that spend a lot of money for OP items
Jesus...
I always say that manhwas have only two genres - VR MMO and drama.
@@feykro222 lol yeah most are those, after that you have people gaining game like abilities in the real world or some kind of isekai
It's fun to read as a fantasy novel, but it's quite shitty if it's applied to real products. A simple example of something similar would also be open world pvp... It's fun on manga/manhwas/anime but not so much on games.
Just finished reading this new VR MMO webcomic called The Strongest Florist that surprisingly focuses on a brute that gets OP titles quickly with his ambition to build a flower shop. However, other real life MMO manwha like Return to Player, Omniscient Reader and Dungeons & Artifacts do focus on obtaining overpowered items from the in game shop.
You used to grind to become an unkillable god now you play slots for it. That's it in a nutshell.
Congrats on the algorithm blessing you. I never watch videos on MMOs and this was just recommended to me.
Nice man , good to hear
The thing is that videogames grant a means to escape from "reality", having a plane field where everybody of any status is equal and can reach equal things. P2W destroyes that aspect
Preach!
Good to know I m not alone!!!
Absolutely! Pay to win is a foreign concept to video games. The only ones who like p2w are the greedy.
Almost gone are the days of being able to get respect ingame by just being good at that game.
Then don't play MMO;s or multiplayer games where you have some rank based system. Just go single or co-op pve .
From what I heard the "stamina" system is not only because of milking the players but also a governmental law. Also it allows easily to launch in China without actual monitoring of game time.
"They suck... but i love and play them."
That explain it all
😄
Much appreciated
Exactly how I feel about MapleStory (Reboot)... I both hate and love it at the same time
Well, he is wearing BDSM suit...
korean mmos are like creampuffs whitout any filling , pretty on outside but empty and bland inside
or woman....
@@kliersheed or men, 99% of humans really.
@@kliersheed That made me laugh xD
@@Schwietz83 nah, the rest are ugly AND empty :P
@@kliersheed how can you say that about something you've never tried
When games become a glorified casino, I'm out. That beeing said, I do spend some money on cosmetics ect. like Warframe. But I see what I buy. Screw these gambling mechanics.
Oh, and people who think they are "better" than other players just because they opened their wallets are delusional, imo.
Not sure Warframe is a good way to explain your point as I gotten cosmetics for free buy getting the plat by selling items it game. But removing that fact ya Warframe is nice in that regard. Retail WoW would be the worst thing you can do in gaming as there in-game shops, a sub fee and the game itself. Ironically Among Us is the best example of what us from the west want. Just skins + base game, no random elements or power boosts.
Tell that to Koreans lmao
But you pay on a good Game thats a different Story anyway.
Warframe is a Game that shouldnt exist because its so fair.
When it comes to predatory gambling mechanics, Kurtzpel comes to mind.
Honestly glad I gave up Warframe. They've been letting their old content go to buggy hell in favor of 'new content', which is really just old content packaged up as 'new'. And they just kept adding new grind in on top of old grind (which is just more of the same thing, locked behind more RNG or money), which made it impossible for me to get anyone to stick with the game.
I'm a simple girl. If something's free to play, I stay away.
The try phantasy star online 2
Yeah you get what you pay for. They're not all bad though.
lol fr
I'm trying to teach this to my six year old right now. It's pretty hard for him to grasp that the free games are the most expensive. I tell him if he wants a paid game, mommy will buy it. If he wants a free game, he ain't getting my password.
i agree with Augusto try phantasy star online 2 and phantasy star online 2-NG is coming out this year and the beta is great its prob one of the best F2P MMORPGS ive played and if you play the PSO2 then when PSO2-NG comes out you can just transfer your char to it
Every Korean MMO looks exactly the same even when they aren't pay 2 win they force you to pay for literally every cosmetic item or else you look like a level 1 noob the whole game because you can't earn any cool cosmetics.
They don't "force" you, if you "need" that cosmetic item it is YOUR problem not theirs, and last time I checked, they are a business and they need to make money to continue giving whining audiences content
@@reinaldofernandez this attitude is exactly why those MMOs are slowly being accepted.A large part of peoples fun is customization and self expression in an online environment. Theres plenty of PROVEN and less scummy ways to earn money in mmos that dont rely on cosmetic lootboxes.
@@Fox_Olive Personally, I’m okay with cosmetics costing money, so long as it is a flat, clearly outlined price for a guaranteed and specific item/thing. I don’t appreciate or enjoy monetary price tags for the “chance” to potentially get a specific item or skin you want. That’s just anti-consumer. You’re allowed to charge whatever price you want for something but you need to be transparent about what that something and price is, so consumers can make informed choices about how they spend their money. That’s like the fundamental cornerstone of Democratic free-market ideology, which even I will admit is often being subverted already in the West- take literally any advertisement or commercial for cars as an example.. most of the time it’s a bunch of HD clips of the vehicle doing glory shots through different terrains, not details about what the car actually has features-wise, what it doesn’t, and for what price. But either way, I’ll still always fight for transactional transparency in products and, for those that don’t offer it, I will vote with my wallet by not buying their shit. There are enough indie buy to play games out there that I can spend my time off from work in to suffice.
@@reinaldofernandez actually they pretty much do force it. as the devs know that making your character look unique is a big thing in mmo (looks are the true end game) and kmmo are notorious at charging $30-$60 on a single outfit, that in some Kmmo are a loot box that you MAY get the outfit that fits your race.
yes MMO need money to run, but that is overpriced. And more often than not the cosmetics, or ability to use/wear any cosmetics comes with a big price tag as they do not drop any cosmetics/transmog items in game.
I would like to point out that in Phantasy Star Online 2, you can buy just about every payed for cosmetic with in game currency. Abit allot of it sometimes but grinding that currency isn't that hard either. Oh wait, Phantasy Star Online 2 isnt Korean.
I used to be someone that only played F2P mmos. I eventually noticed I never reached endgame in those games mainly because getting there is as you guessed it pay to play. I finally bit the bullet and got FFXIV. Havent looked at a F2P mmo ever since. I don't have to worry about what content this patch is only for the VIPs or whales. Love having access to all game content man.
Really appreciate how professionally you make these analysis videos. Your objectivity and direct assessment of issues concerning the MMO genre are big reasons why I'll always keep coming back to watch.
Thanks man that's real nice of you to say
Corporate Korean-style MMOs are gaining in popularity but then so are kickstarted indie MMOs that feature none of the gross monetization mechanics/planned progression lag inherent to Korean titles.
The issue with the indie MMO games is that there really have not been many success stories from crowdfunded MMO's
@@Feridire Right, I should've clarified more, but Korean developers aren't stupid and if it looks like they're gonna start losing market share to the higher quality indie MMOs they'll likely start switching up their tactics.
@@phillipmitchell2254 Their monetization schemes are way, way more profitable, and as long as they can afford to pump out games with bigger worlds, better graphics, better cinematics, more advertising, people will get hooked, especially kids and young teens. It sucks but it's here to stay.
And yeah indie MMOs are tricky, as MMOs require a ton of money and manpower to make and operate. Not usually the strong suits of an indie developer.
Kickstarted MMOs that will never release and just scam you for your money lmao.
@@thatcanadian4460 I mean... you can always opt in later, when or if they prove themselves to be legit and worthwhile. I won't be kickstarting any MMOs since I've seen too many start and fail in the last 10 years, but if one manages to get funding and ends up good, hell yeah I playing it.
I remember getting a lucky pull in lotro and recieving a cool mount. My excitement died a bit when I found a slightly modified version available in the cash shop.
If you can just buy everything then nothing means anything.
So you then bought a bunch of things from the cash shop?
Save the money and play the game is another way to look at it.
@@bl8388 I hate cash shops and never used them except to unlock quest packs. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.
I've learned that you can either spend a lot of money or countless hours of grinding in order to compete with others.
the enlightened way: just don't compete with others. And suddenly we are at SP games. The best of both worlds: 4-player co-op games
I guess this is the reason why I hate games now a days. It takes the skill and fun out of it if you can just purchase the best things.
Or both.
The thing is that even THAT doesn't really work as a rule, because part of the way some of them keep the money flowing is by continually releasing more and stronger stuff that people can pay for. So you spend countless hours grinding to get the strongest gear, and then they release new content and boom, you're back where you started. Over and over again, you're at the mercy of the developer's balance choices on new content. They can be fair with it and make even, gradual progression, or they can set a power spike that sends you back to the stone ages relative to the people who pay for their gear.
Maybe there are some games where you can actually keep up by simply playing the game a lot, but there are some where you either can't or you're looking at not only playing a lot but being in a very hardcore guild(probably with p2w guildmates at that) as well.
My point is that even "p2w=play harder and you're ok" is a fallacy. In some games it may work out, but that just means you got lucky with devs; when you accept p2w there is always a risk you'll end up with devs that continually suppress you by releasing power-spiked p2w content and you will NEVER be competitive(except for maybe the 2 weeks before new content patches).
@@mintacgaming8924 People just don't understand that simple tip. DONT BE COMPETITIVE! Case closed, you good to go now. There's no p2w that will bother you if you aren't competitive to begin.
Everyone can have their own opinion, and if someone likes them that's perfectly fine.
But, I'm just very glad that you made this video and talked about it honestly and realistically.
I'm so tired of the crowd saying "uh you have to play every korean mmo to say if it sucks" or "you're a western s*premacist if you say korean mmo's suck", because whenever I googled the question that's the only forum discussions I found.
I tried liking Aion, I played it for months and got attached to my toons, but it's just so ugh. I'm sorry to say it but I hate the game and its stupid scroll mechanic.
The artstyle isn't my cup of tea either (anymore; I used to love anime inspired artstyles in games but they start looking the same after a while), though that's of course just my taste, and I dislike the gritty "naturalistic" style of many western games just as much at times.
Dude, agreed. The "gritty" look has only magnified and it needs to be toned down. That and the "plastic heroes with ridiculous proportions," i.e Overwatch. Two extremes that both look terrible imo
Really enjoyed this one, you're bang on about the psychological effects and quite frankly it's disgusting that companies are allowed to do this sort of stuff to incentivize gambling & other activities.
Thanks buddy, glad it hit for you
@Hitroman government and churches been into public manipulation since... inception. so does everybody. not gonna wash them dishes? no sex with your wife. not gonna crunch at work? ill make your daily job miserable and so on
@Hitroman Because the US' anti-drug and anti-texting-and-driving campaigns have totally worked out. Yeah, warning people not to do stupid shit on a government level totally works...
@Hitroman Oh without a doubt, especially because their own government latgely coordinated the drug epidemic in the first place. I'm with you on not trusting a government like the US' to properly regulate harmful things in life, but that definitely doesn't mean I'm okay with deliberately predatory game design instilling gambling mentality in young people.
@Hitroman coping cringelord.
I live in Korea, and I love games, especially well-made games with great storylines, but I noticed that people are usually in different world when we talk about games. Some of them don't even know what Witcher is.
As said the most popular in the east is mostly free to play games
@@ianramos905in ither words, they have trash taste
if game they are missing out, if netflix then good for them
This can also be applied to gaming as a whole, not just MMORPG or Korean.
The things gaming companies can get away with nowadays is atrocious.
right
but it is worse there.
But it started there. Remember when the West banned lootboxes? On the other hand the Genshin (although Chinese based) players think has the best monetization when in fact it's just another gacha devil.
Typical "We're all the same." bullshit.
Just an early endorsement, I'm Korean and I agree that Korean MMOs are not well designed for western audiences. Lots of essentially regionally accepted norms that we don't enjoy in the west (I'm in the US)
Thanks man, be interested in your opinion once you've finished the video as a Korean. I sourced a lot of my opinions over the years from speaking to Koreans and (poorly) translated articles. I'd like to know how close I got it
@@KiraTV1 Honestly I think you hit the nail on the head. The general distinction imo is the player base that, as you said, was the focus of the design. I'm also making a game myself, and one of the biggest distinctions in that way I can share is that the average US gamer will say something like "games need to have fewer costumes and transmog to preserve the identity of armor" etc, while a Korean gamer will say "If I play a game that has no purchasable costumes, I have no way to show how much I enjoy and appreciate it" so they almost see it as a NEGATIVE if a game doesn't feature a way for them to "show appreciation" which for Koreans is always money.
One thing ill add that you kinda touched on is the player difference too. Koreans generally pride themselves on raw talent or obtained skill, so the concept of "buy to win" is kinda moot as no purchase will hide or fake natural talent, while for westerners we see ANY system that makes something "easier" as a convenience win or in some way pay to win, and therefore almost instantly considered bad. I think Koreans maybe have a healthier acceptance of enjoyment and consumerism when it comes to hobbies. A wow player will profess for hours about how fun wow is but also about how much they hate the cash shop, while in Korea that distinction would be much harder to find. If the game is good and lends itself to skilled gameplay, it almost doesn't matter to Koreans if it's pay to win because it's still good outside of it. (I don't necessarily agree, just saying)
@@XeroXenTruSin meanwhile its against norms to tip (show appreciation) a waiter/waitress in a lot of asian cultures, but in America its basically a standard. Funny how its reversed in that regard.
Yeah that was definitely something I could have added as it's a point I've even been aware of , that the conversation doesn't doesn't really happen in kr about p2w. A lot of westerners also hate the "cutesy" aspect of kr games , elyon being a recent example with the colourful cars driving around being an immersion breaker. There's a lot of facets to this conversation but I'm glad you're on board with what was included as someone who likely has the insight to back it up.
Appreciate the feedback mate
Koreans do love their grind aka killing the same mob packs for hours and hours for days on end.
This is not something the western player likes (on average) which is why many quit something like BDO cause that is basically the entire pve.
Tbh if BDO did not have extensive Lifeskill systems it would proaby be dead by now.
Western audience loves dungeons, raids but so far Korean MMOs I've played that offer raids and dungeons are the worst offenders of p2w.
It's frustrating. I love the aesthetics but everything else just blows.
This is the worst part about kr mmos. They are the best looking mmos, but are p2w as fuck. Ashes of creation is looking to be great mechanically, but it looks ugly imo.
@@blanahaha Just play FFXIV. Theres literally no reason not to play it except being delusional.
7:56 was not expecting to see natsuki here, lol
:D
Was only listening and went to the keyboard to rewind and check again.
Sudden Natsuki is sudden.
It was just too perfect to not include him
Ragnarok Online is truly the only one that did it for me back in the day.
Same. Haven't found another one that fells like Rag. Online since I stopped playing in 2007, and I have tried all the major ones like WoW, SWTOR (in the end we wanted Kotor 3, not a MMO) and such
Now look at the state of the game
Gacha is everywhere and everything cost real money
@@AC-ut3nk On R. Online? Yeah, I stop playing when they introduced a prime currency; a bunch of old players did too
Back then for me it was mabinogi. It would have been ff11 but my dad did not want to pay a game monthly
@@Smogne
lol 2007 is the same year I quit WoW xD
Have tried many mmos since, nothing got close. MapleStory was prbly my best experience besides WoW.
We have seen the pay to win mentality in Eve Online when Korean and Chinese groups came onto the server and since being purchased by Pearl Abyss the attempt to more heavily monetize the game by introducing more cosmetics for the ships and focusing on improving the pvp aspect of the game where anyone not pvping seems to be becoming more of the game mechanics.
i literally was just talking to some one about this a few hours ago, i was curious about why korean culture creates wales in such a stark contrast. a bit bizarre this shows up on my feed that soon after. good shit
I'm all seeing
@@KiraTV1 So, you can actually answer that old cereal ad? Handy for MMO work indeed.
Because video games in Korea have far more social status than in the West. Flash was a super star known in households for being the best starcraft player in the world well before LoL caused an esports boom in 2012.
Think of games in Korea no different from other ways rich people display their wealth and class. Think cars or other expensive collection hobbies. People spend millions on cars just to display to pelple and it's the same in games. That person with the best gear in the game is essentially the same as a guy will million dollar cars or a guy with watches worth 100k. It's all a flex, the gear score or dps is literally just the money measuring meter.
The reason korean mmos are hellishly grindy and impossible to reach anywhere near the levels of the whales is to emphasize the class gaps. 'Those filthy plebians will never come near the power of my account because they are poor.'
@@Sammysapphira that is an interesting take, and I can definitely agree with what you're saying. I've never thought of a game account as an object, and I suppose it ostensibly is. Great point, though. When I think of my competitive game accounts, I share that with other people even if they aren't intimately involved in that community. Makes perfect sense in a society more heavily revolved around video games, purchasing success is as good.
Thanks for your input, genuinely thought evoking and I have no disagreement with anything you said.
I really liked you incorporated your everyday household items into the beginning of the vid, resourceful and saves on expenditure.
Had to do it
The grinding in Korean MMOs almost destroyed my love of the genre
Tip to avoid them: If they are f2p, don't try them
Korean MMOs tend to be extremely grindy, and Asian MMO's in general usually take monetization to another level... though it seems other game companys from other countries seem to be trying to more closely emulate their monetizing practices as time moves forward.
I will say, that if the grind is done correctly, meaning extremely engaging and smooth ability to rotation and pathing, then I tend to like a little grind. If it's extremely repetitive and slow to execute, thats when I have an issue.
Edit: Good grind example, for me at least is Black Desert. It's extremely satisfying and for the most part doesn't feel like the traditional grind. Battling huge groups of enemies packed together, using wide reaching skills and abilities, all the while being able to either move quickly or reach far enough it doesn't actually matter.
A disappointing example was, for me at least, Genshin Impact. The game starts with so much potential and was really fun... but it slowly devolves as it tries to get you more involved within it's monetization system. It's semi-false "Endgame" literally has you do tooth pulling grind to actually progess. Spending money would alleviate this somewhat (through energy systems and upgrade materials), but even then it would have you slowly gain ranks to at some point render much of that moot as attaining specific ranks alters the game difficulty. This is positive only in that enemies give you better rewards for defeating them, but also means that your characters better be a specific level or else you will have a hellish slog ahead of you to level em up.
I actually glad the game has stamina system. Can you imagine the time we will waste just for "1 more domain"??
Since I've already AR 55 and got nothing to do beside 4 daily mission and probably some domains, I will spend hours into domain to farm artifacts to feed my characters artifact.
no working, no pause, just domain.
got to goo indie but MMORPG's need lots ok money to makes and to continue advancing.
I remember a BDO fansite that followed the game from alpha and even did an interview with pearl abyss, you could see the dev just accepted that the korean audience sucks and if your game doesn't fit into that mold, it will fail, the fansite dude was also defeated and lost all hope when seeing the changes. That game in alpha was very, very different, only the core combat gameplay was the same, even the p2w costumes was something they didn't want to do but the korean MMO players just wouldn't buy cosmetics that did nothing.
To be honest BDO fanboys are so dumb, no matter how much you criticize Pearl Abyss for doing shaddy business, they will attack you and blame you instead. They are so dumb, they don't realize Pearl Abyss is laughing at them for milking fanboy wallet.
Tf? Why would you not buy a cosmetic just because it doesn't have functionality
Its literally a cosmetic, you should wear something because you want to look a certain way
Like holy shit 💀
@@AdonisOuranios Because life is different. If you see a nice top or a cool jacket, most people in the west will buy it, if they like the look of it, but since lifestyle in most of the eastern countries tends to be very expensive, they think more than twice, what they need and want to buy.
This system translates to games. Something you can play for free most of the people will definetely play there. Then spending money on the game has the same thought progress as above. Since its virtual, you get no value out of something that does nothing besides "looking good ingame", so they attach functionality to it. That way, it will generate value inside the game, because it acutally does something for your gameplay and grind.
@@OlafJorigson and so the skill aspect is diminished since the game is designed to milk these idiots, there are situations in which you can say a certain practice is stupid and inferior, this is one such case, i mean you do get no value out of it either way because if it is pay to win you will be stumped by all the other paying players so it will end up with the same effect as a visual cosmetic with no mechanical effect but it will cost MUCH MUCH more it's pathetic and it is stupid, at this point the korean gaming landscape is nothing but filthy filthy polution, spewing the game desing equivalent of Chromium dust over to other landscapes.
I just shifted away of any Korean MMO
good
Korea doesn't control the MMO marketplace...I don't know why Kira acts like they do. Korea is a small market for anything, period. The American and European markets dwarf the Korean market and they set the trends, not the other way around.
i haven't said they were dominating the market, I just said I hate the way they design games, and I will not be playing them anymore.
@@bvbxiong5791 true , even with mmo-s way more liked in korea still it is just 50m people to start with
Sorry how is it I "act like Korea controls the market" ? That's a wild assumption to present.
This made me glad I never fell into that MMO hell that most of my friends fell into.
It didn't begin with an MMO, per say, but rather a competitive FPS shooter modeled after CSO. Then after that, the loot boxes happened, then the gachas.
Gachas existed long before loot boxes in the West.
@@Sammysapphira Sure, but I was mainly talking about my personal experience.
@@PresidentFunnyValentine CSGO is the worst counter striker ever made, the game is made as gambling machine. Sure CSGO skins didn't make different to weapons stats, but the point is that Gaben and Valve cares more to the skins and lootbox and it makes them forget to fix the real issue with CSGO which last for more than 5 years. This is why many CSGO veterans leave the game, even myself i rather play old good CS like CS Source than garbage like CSGO.
Koreans thinking they make good game design or gameplay design choices, that's a funny joke right there.
Amazing video!
I hope for the future we keep watch on these mechanics (like countries slowly banning loot boxes as gambling) and make it NOT be a thing. 100% if companies get to do what they want and if chieldren grow up with f2p games this will be normalized, but things can be done about it.
Yea I just do not Play Korean MMOs and its not just the cash grab...its the damn grind, I dont mind grind but Korean MMOs grinding is like mind numbing and becomes un fun in a sense
If you didn't have to grind, you'd finish all content far too fast, the game wouldn't hold players, and the game would quickly shut down.
Grinding is inevitable in the MMO genre. Its the degree to which it is pushed. Originally TERA was fine in this regard. The direction its gone nowadays stops me from playing it because its just endless recycled dungeon grind.
Notice the simultaneous lack of good western MMOs.
@@WoonStruck you missed the point lol I said I dont mind the grind but the Korean MMO grinds are terrible...and nothing has been as bad is like BDO and Lineage......
My only experience with Korean MMORPGs was AION, and I'm _soooo_ glad it's in the past. Proud to say they never saw a dime from me 🙄
Edit: wrong. I forgot that Black Desert Online is Korean too, and I can say I've had a much better experience with that game than I had with AION.
Oh god this thing was all sorts of awefull...
Did you play the Gameforge port in the west or the actual game from NCSoft?
Because the original game from NC was a masterpiece, and still is largely played in Korea to these days
you are proud that you used a product for free? can you elaborate further on how that makes you proud?
@@babalonmotherofabomination8249 he wasnt manipulated into giving cash to have solutions for artificial problems created by same developers
@@Metalwrath2 well, the fact that we have to be manipulated in order to monetarily support a product we are using - and that wouldn't exist without a customer base - is a problem that we - as the users - cause, and the companies have to face as a hard truth. I agree that creating artificial problems is not the best way to go about this, but then again look at BDO. A game that can be 100% enjoyed just by buying it for 5 quid, or also enjoyed by spending s**tloads of cash in it.
This is the reason Kira why im done with korean mmorpg,they can make the best mmo on the planet,but we all know whats going to happen after 6-12 month (p2win) they starting too lose people and game is dead after 3-4 years!I still playing gw 2 and definitly im gonna play until the ashes of creation comes out!
An interesting case I've experienced is a Korean MMO called Dragon Nest, which eventually converted most of its cash shop-only inventory into shops that can be purchased from with in-came currencies (I don't know if this was just in overseas regions or in Korea also). Tons of things that used to be inaccessible to people playing for free can now be obtained with hard work (including cosmetics which, oddly, now play as big a role in your stats as non-cosmetics... you basically need two sets of armor, weapons, accessories, etc). Of course, that's not to say they didn't double down on cash items which reduce grind, that's a given, but in doing so they also removed the loot box system (dragon eggs) entirely, which I don't think ANYONE who played the game or MMOs in general could have seen coming. I still can't tell what this is indicative of for the game's health but it's pretty interesting at least. :/
Back in the day Lineage 2 was Subscription based and had no pay 2 win at all even being a Korean mmorpg, it was truly a masterpiece of a game before it got destroyed by p2w.
I spent many hours with a good group of friends back in the day, grinding out levels in the original L2. It really was a great game.
*destroy by p2w* still remember the army of Gold sellers and Multboxing selling adena and gear.
If the game dont have cash shop, Player will create it themself.
Even WoW is p2w. all top guild use Gold sellers gold cause its help for speedup thier progression and Win the First. Where the Competition matter.
@@user-Cata7sti7ma7 RMT and pure P2W are different things mate, some games has items that can ONLY be acquired through cash shop and no other way, and you are completely diregarding the competency of RMT hunting a company can have.
Blizzard is a joke btw
@@jamessunderlandseventh7410 its dont exist any company that succesfully win in any regard against RMT. RMT is a billion profit business and only grow.
In addition, the RMT can also allow the purchase of cash shop items at a lower price. taking advantage of the rates change depending on the regions or simple laundry money.
Money always brings a significant benefit. There is not a single game with an economy that I do not consider P2W. so personally this is no longer a valid reason not to play a game that you like.
the same way I'm not going to commit a not alive because the IRI is Heavy Duty P2W.
@@user-Cata7sti7ma7 How sad, it seems like you never played any game that has/had heavy emphasis in RMT hunting.
I was referring to Character/ACC bound Cash shop only items, that are literally only acquired through cash shop and cannot be traded.
No game is completely free from RMT, but there is a lot of variance on how effectively and at which scale games/companies reduce them.
Hm...This has opened my eyes to see not just in front of me, but what lies on the other side of the hill. Alright, first off obligatory "been a gamer for over 17 years and am now 32 years of age. My first PC game was on the DOS, I played vanilla Everquest, WoW and 34+ MMO's start to min/max" insert. I never really thought about it, but you're right; there really is a cultural difference at play, not to mention all the behind-the-scenes deals and interactions. This video is extremely well done and I will be sharing this, you've got my sub, for what it is worth.
ESO already has systems in place that inconvenience you so heavily that you are almost forced to use ESO+.
That's one of the reasons why I quit playing it.
yeah I had to step away from games like ESO and GW2 because I can't be trusted when I can spend money gambling for cosmetics.
@@Shayoni ESO is more than cosmetics.
ESO+ is legit required if you plan on looting stuff. there are so many mats in the game and the crafting bag is the only place to actually store large amounts.
Yeah I hate when people try to claim eso+ is just optional. Craft bag is an absolute must, especially if you want to craft. Also, dying your armor or outfits you need it too. Eso was good and I have over 1500 hours in it, but haven't touched it in over a year as I can't justify paying monthly for a game that when it dies, I won't be able to play again. Oh and the way they do expansions now is awful. Buy the expansion at AAA price, then you'll eventually need to buy crowns for a dlc, or sub to eso+.
They got to earn money somehow tough and in my opinion, using a monthly subscription is the best way of doing it. I agree that the expansions are overpriced and I agree that the catch with the looting bag is very bad, tough they have to get "some catch" to stuff, so people buy it. Cosmetics are a nice way to earn money, but its not very reliable and very subjective (you don't need cosmetics, so a good bunch won't invest their money for this).
I think Josh Strife Hayes explains the problems with MMOs in general pretty well.
0:00 - Intro
1:02 - MMonetization & Cultural Effect
6:30 - Game Design
9:58 - Publishers vs Developers
14:42 - Outro
Does a 15 min video really need timestamps?
@@UnexplainedHoveringSpheroid If you want to hear certain viewpoints on a specific part of the subject, yes, as with all things. MTX for example has been talked about to death, so perhaps someone just wants to skip that and listen to the rest of it, or perhaps you want to hear their viewpoint on a specific part of the subject, or maybe you just want to go back over it for your own POV comments and want to make sure you didn't miss-hear something. Plenty of reasons for timestamps to exist
@@cheken4326 Such impatience. You are also running the risk of taking segments / comments out of their intended context due to the absence of a wider framing / context provided by a video as a whole. You run the risk of misinterpretation when you reduce something into soundbites in such a fashion. Were it a 45 minute video then your statement would seem more valid.
Dude, the gamigo ball gag bit from back when had me dying. I need to go find that vid again
if you find it can you link it? I watched it long time ago, but I also can't find the video.
@Meorin Thanks!
@@Gdach yea I tried posting the link twice but, it wouldn't show up idk
Hi Kira, just popping in to say that I'm happy to see how much your channel has grown. Almost 50K now, you succeeded bro, you will get to 100K in no time. Keep it up! Also nice Abroad in Japan reference 😉
Thanks man , I appreciate that
I think we have already moved to the Korean model. Maybe not to the full extent but the F2P mindset has already taken hold. It's been going in that direction for a long time. I quit EQ2 many years ago because it converted over to a F2P model. ESO started as B2P and vowed to never have a cash shop, loot boxes or not use a sub model and look at it now.
Even games like WoW that are still sub model are employing some of the same gimmicks simultaneous to the box price + expansions + sub. It's ludicrous and why I'm pretty doubtful we will ever have another great MMO. Maybe AoC but they are already selling cosmetics like crazy and the game isn't even in beta. MMOs are in a sad state and look to be staying that way.
North Korea is the most hardcore survival MMO EVER.
Reasons why I don't even check out these games, even though I often love the way they look.
I'm watching a video describing how an internet Cafe works as if its a foreign concept, while being old enough to see the rise and fall of internet cafes in America.
*laughs in city of heroes*
*cries when realizing its now dead so it doesn't count*
You didn't hear??? It's been back for years now. A dev leaked the source code and now there's a bunch of fan servers. And it's completely free. No subscriptions. No cash shop. And the population is booming. Google City of Heroes Homecoming. There's a topic on the message board that tells you how to install it.
@@SquishyProductions omg thank you so much!!! I'll look it up immideately!!
@@wavestrider2160 :D Welcome home!
It's back woo 🙂
@@SquishyProductions you just became RibGribber's hero!
Btw, I loved Ragnarok Online back when they let us beta test it in the West. Once it was subscription only I had to stop playing though since I was just a kid back then, had no income and my parents would never spend money on a game subscription for me :'c
I think I was in highschool back when RO was in beta here. spent a lot of time on that game and then on private servers when I was younger =D
only cucks play official RO server. True RO fans skip that whole subscription thing and play in private servers since 2005.
No seriously, their Athena engine is leaked on internet since 2005, making fully custom private server is possible filled with features that official server won't be able to imagine.
If Western MMO's go p2w, I'll stop playing them all.
Bad news regarding WoW and even Runescape then.
@@RiseInAfterlife
pay 2 win in the west usually means the dumpsterfire has finally reached the gas station.
@Waldel Martell WoW is buy the game, buy expansions, pay subscription and on top of that has a disgusting cash shop and is p2w tho.
(Buying and selling WoW tokens makes more money than you could ever grind in the game)
@@RiseInAfterlife
ouch
@@RiseInAfterlife In OSRS thankfully you still can't skip the unbuyable skills and no cosmetics which is good.
Just the aesthetics of Korean MMOs are enough to put me off tbh
A lot of Korean MMO's share such a similar art style and draw from the same inspirations that they start to feel generic. I've also noticed that many (not all) tend to lean on the grindier side and opt more for a pay-2-win microtransaction shop rather than charge a monthly subscription. I feel this tends to hurt the overall quality and enjoyment of the core game itself. There are of course exceptions to the rule but this is just my observation.
it makes me laugh every time someone shows some hype for an upcoming KMMO, as if they have forgotten the massive dumpster fire that has been EVERY single KMMO to date. it’s like they’re an abused wife who believes the husband every time he says he’ll change.
People like the games and sometimes the games are fun enough to forgive the issues, it's not that outlandish.
@@KiraTV1 horribly outlandish considering they love to complain about the previous titles but act like the new ones are gonna be any different. Good games are fun, bad games aren't. Sometimes you can forgive the bad and still have fun, but if you yourself say you aren't having fun, why would you get excited for the next release?
Korean MMOs: Expensive, more grindy than an actual job, beautiful as hell. I personally like the system that GW2 brought in: Buy 2 Play + entirely cosmetic microtransactions. This way, you have a steady stream of income from shiny outfits without handing anyone an I WIN button for whipping out their credit card.
Is nobody going to bring up the fact that Kira wore a balaclava and a ballgag for this video??? That's dedication right there.
Few people did 😄
That was a clip from another video, from archeage content i guess?
I will never forgive Nexon for killing off Monster Squad...
a lot of people are attracted to them because of the art(2d,3d,animation etc.), my god the art direction on most of these games is awesome to me lol
the dream would be a sensible game design team a korean art team and a publisher that doesnt want to suck the life out of you, a game like that would pop off hard imo.
I have to agree, the art direction in these games is always fantastic - even the more 'grounded/realism' ones like Black Desert Online still put all of the western MMO's to shame still in design and visuals. Even TERA, for example, had wonderful animations for the combat systems for the time, and still stands out to me when I look back years later.
@@BT-ex7ko not hard since most western mmo are like 8-10+ years old games
@@shutup1037 So is BDO. 7 years now.
yep, the art direction is the only thing that has me even _consider_ ever trying any of these, but I know all too well the game design is often, imo, atrocious (i.e. excessively grindy to encourage spending)
@@shutup1037 FFXIV came out a year before ESO and TERA came out 3 years prior to ESO's release and both looks heaps better. Picking on that one in particular because it's the worse looking western MMO that's come out recently. It's completly potato visuals.
I'd be interested to see a company release an MMORPG with two versions on launch, the F2P (cash shop Korean version) and a Monthly Subscription version (cosmetic shop only). Completely separate and non-transferable servers for essentially the same game. They'd need different base rates and throttling but could be developed the same for the most part.
This kinda already happens. A lot of f2p mmos started as sub only games, but they were failing as sub only so they would switch to f2p p2w within a year. The ones I can think of are, lineage 2, aion, tera, wildstar, and blade and soul. Thiers a ton more i just can't think of them right now.
Just wanted say I’ve only discovered your videos recently, while the topics are somewhat interesting I’ve found myself mainly watching for your nuanced and mature opinion. I feel your objectiveness in your analysis, use of credible sources and ability to offer both sides to an argument is highly refreshing in a sea of title baiting youtubers who either constantly use hyperbole to add drama, or pump out videos with little to no real substance for the views . You are under subscribed IMO! Best of luck to your channel in the future mate.
Thats real nice of you to say man, thank you so much. Hopefully the growth will continue and we'll get there one day!
I know it's just back round stuff but Blue Protocol is a Japanese mmo
ah so thats why it doesnt have the usual garbage korean style ? :O
HAH gotteem!!
He said in the beginning not all of these clips are from korean mmos, he uses those videos as filler for his video to not only look on a black screen xD
Yeah lots of people making this comment without reading that , funnily always about blue protocol and ignoring the fact there's also multiple Chinese and western games in here plus more Japanese ones too.
@@KiraTV1 Because it's literally the 2nd MMO you show in a video talking about Korean MMOs. If you can't even be bothered to have appropriate B-Roll why the hell should anyone bother to watch the video.
Everything started when some rich guy got pawned in PVP by some random unemployed guy called NoobMaster69! :)
i seen that name, on black desert online lmaao was it him!!?
@@dwelle89 Avengers endgame reference, any similarity with real people or events is purely coincidental. ;)
After kickstarters worst thing about mmo genre is korean dev or their hunger
Korean mmorpg be like: sexy female characters (preferably with minimal clothing) with lighting eyes, and male buff characters with long haircuts and lots of donate
I thought it might have something to do with a lot of the Asian cultures having a thing for flexing having money. Like those stories of Chinese families fighting over who pays the bill but translate this culture of face through money into games. My grandparents aren't Chinese but belong in a generation where self-made rich people tip very generously solely to flex money so my grandpa used to buy expensive things to flex and throw parties to flex and my mom had a boss from about the same age group as them who once tipped every waiter in a restaurant they ate at a big valuable crunchy bill each for merely greeting him.
P2W, Gender lock, barely no visual progression without cash shop, etc... These are some of the reasons that made me quit Korean MMO's....
I actually don't mind the gender lock. It made me stop caring about character creation so much that I got to actually playing the game faster...
...and then realizing your other points are bang on and drop them.
Win some, lose some, lol.
@@karsonkammerzell6955 For me character creation is a big part of the game, I create a character I can relate to and that helps me immerse in the game, that's why gender lock is a deal breaker for me specially when the class I wanna playa is some kind of Loli doll furry kawaii sh*t LoL. It's great you don't mind about it I wish I could do it too but I can't. Have a great one bro.
Something that I found very disturbing or annoying was cultural: 12 YO girl characters and cute animal races.
I don't see how there's anything wrong with cute animal races
The latter's literally been in WoW since day 1.
0:20 never forget this moment in your glorious career!
What video that was? want to rewatch it now :D
@@rinkairiozuki7245 Same, that looks hilarious
Great video! We all love Korean MMOs but people have to grow up and start getting pissed off at games that try to play mind games and treat us like idiots or seek to take advantage of people with self-control issues.
Sadly even if every person who watched this video never spent a penny on the games , it wouldn't change anything even remotely. It requires a widespread reaction or actual government intervention at this stage on a world wide scale
korean games are so gud on making the their playerbase feel like cattle, prime cattle or unaware cattle.
You should interview "Steve", he is a famous Korean and maplestory youtuber and he makes english content, would be cool to know different perspectives.
x3theAran59? that would be really cool, he is from Malaysia not Korea though, he plays Korean Maplestory and would have some good insights. I would love to see it
@@trainzelda1428 Thanks for the correction! n.n
We had these pc caffes in Brazil back in 2000's, all us youngsters would gather to play either counter strike or tibia. Shame it died
Wow that takes me way back to the story of a brazilian tibia player that murdered another player over some game item
PC cafes might have died but Tibia and counter strike are still alive!
I never play Korean games competitively for this reason
ok, play western theme parks then and collect more stars in your starbook
@@babalonmotherofabomination8249 Every comment you make is so cancerous and garbage.
@@babalonmotherofabomination8249 Is it better to buy the stars than earn them?
@@NabsterHax it's better to have a balanced monetization that both free players & whales can enjoy, like BDO. everyone is satisfied, and the company has enough funds to keep developing the game, resulting in a healthy MMO.
@@DsgSleazy I disagree with your observation, but to each their own.
The tittle first made me chuckle. Kira is at ease with speaking his mind after all so no surprise there. But the tittle isn’t just click bait. He then proceeds to explain the whys and the how’s. KiraTV has explained, in my opinion, the logic behind such a daring declaration. I agree that the monetisation in Korean games is extreme in many cases and so common that it’s expected. The games otherwise are generally gorgeous but shallow. It doesn’t make them bad per say, but for myself, it’s not enough. And if spending money is the only way to compete successfully, that’s a quit moment for me. Thank you for this video Kira. Stay safe. 👍
Glad I found this channel. You're really pumping out quality stuff critiquing the industry.
Thanks man, appreciate that
The ball gag 😂😂
Ragnarok Online was my first MMORPG and I love it
I hear you like grinding.. so we added grinding to your grinding with a side of grind (Looking at you Lineage 1 and 2)
And Aeon it took the same amount of xp to go from level 49 to 50 as it did to go from 1 to 49. I am still psychological traumatised by trying to hit level cap.
Think a lot of these games can be fixed with a small change using BDO as an example, The basics of it would be include the cash shop items in the drops pool for mobs and only have these drops available if you have the Value Pack active creating a monthly sub requirement. Should be easy to manage as it would be database changes.
Bdo will never be good until it adds actual skillful pve content
If you want a PvP game play tekken, the copium that bdo players have for the PvP is astonishing for how p2w it is. PvP in mmos are side content that are never meant to be balanced or fair since it's an RPG with player power.
Only rarely does an mmo have a truly competitive PvP scene like in old wow wotlk through mop 3v3 or guild wars.
@@Sammysapphira If you enable customizable arena pvp, where everyone has the same possiblities for stats by a point-buy system, its possible to have a competetive, skill based PvP scene, but yes, there are basically none of these.
Pay to win destroys the meritocracy of the game. Even as I get older and can afford to pay to win, I choose not to. It's a betrayal of the purpose of the game - to reward the players who put in the work, in as closed an environment as possible.
This revelation is disheartening. I thought we were on our way to open Korean dev eyes and make them take our "culture" into account. 💔
Money talks. Why do you think even western AAA devs have turned to scummy lootbox systems and try their hardest to defend these money grabbing mechanics.
@@kyoken8691 not only that, but they want into the eastern market more than they give a shit about western gamers. Eastern gamers have long embraced the shit sandwich of MTX and devs just are trying to convince us to eat it too.
@@JakShadwin that's because Asia is the biggest market of F2P games. CN, JP, KR and SEA easily eclipse profits generated by Western countries since the f2p games is part of the gaming culture here. Western publishers just want a piece of the pie
Aka. You want every culture to change because you're the right one and the enlightened one and need to "open people's eyes". Get off your fucking high horse lol.
@@kyoken8691 there's almost always a massive backlash that results in getting those systems removed, though. money does talk, and westerners still mostly refuse to pay.
The only Korean MMO I loved was Blade and Soul it was actuallt good the only issues with it tho was the optimization and the P2W
(insert greta thunberg's meme) "How Dare You!"
You hit the nail on the head man, I'm a long-time fan of eastern mmos, I played them growing up, despite my tolerance to their marketing and E-shop decisions I have to agree, they suck and nothing is changing anytime soon.....unless....
Really excellent summary. Nice to see someone examine this issue without vitriol or pretense. Amazing to see you at 50k after subbing when you around 5k.
Thanks a lot man , you're officially an og!
the biggest reason korean mmo's end up bad is the simple fact that they just dont seem to get the rpg part of the term mmorpg and compensate for it with cashshop items and other character dooddads to help players make their own stories.
Facts.
Damn I miss Cryy😔
Me too bro, he had something different than your usual MMO youtuber. I hope he gets back someday
Same😭😭😭
Having Pay to Win or shortcut elements in a game, is no different from using steroids or performance boosting drugs in competition. I will not support this, in any shape or form.
Either your game is an even playground for everyone, or it is a waste of time.
You play the game to play the game. Why would you pay to skip the gameplay?
@@1un4cy Indeed.
Great video, man. I exclusively play korean mmo since early 2000s but have now stop being committed to it (2018). You brought up a lot of good points that I agree.
I enjoyed the kmmos I've played though. I don't mind the grindy nature of the game (in fact, I enjoyed it). The deal breaker for me is when the cash shop / loot boxes gets too much. I played less than a handful of titles but I stick to them FOR A LONG TIME. So naturally, I could see the shift of the game ..or rather, the developer's; focus from providing fun in-game contents to just milking the player's wallet with cosmetics and pay to win/progress items. And the trend keep increasing for as long as the game is up (looking at you, Granado Espada). And that is when I'm so done with kmmos.
@KiraTV, I'm interested to know your thoughts on the following points as well.
I believe that our generation (1980-1995) saw the rise of MMORPG with the peak of WoW (we were young or young adults when MMORPGs rose). We grew up playing MMORPGs, but our generation is now growing older, they have jobs now and don't have as much time now to play games, but they still want to compete. I feel this shift towards "p2w" or "pay to skip time" is directly targeted to us.
The best P2W model that I've seen that no one ever complains about (or I haven't heard of people complaining about it) was Guild Wars 2, and that's because they had an easy to reach capped gear.
If someone p2w and wins 2 weeks of progress (getting exotic or ascended on GW2) instead of p2w and wins 2 years worth of progress ( getting mythics on Archeage), it suddenly becomes okay-ish.
I also agree that lootboxes should be banned or made 18+ as they are directly targeted to minors.
Yaaaaaas the gamigo love gif lmao.
Yeah i don't get that culture. Make the money problem even worse, let's push that in your hobby as well. Feeling not bad enough? Hold my beer. :P
@voltaicbore03 Oh wow, i didn't know! I think in china it is "kinda" the same as in money wise and were you are working. I am not 100% sure but i heared that it's very hard do break out of what your parents were. Like your parents were dish washers therefore thats your place, i hope that makes sense (and that i recall it correctly). It is just strange to me since this payment model costs far more then a sub plus a box prize. But i guess it makes sense, since like you said, the status and that you can basicly burn money with no issue. I hope that it will change over time but i also think that is a bit of western fault as well. Like we are trashing the planet with our waste and the throw away mentality, which came also from the massive economic growth. And you can't really fault other nations then if they want a bite of it too. A bit rambly but i hope you get my point. Thank you for your comment. 😊
Also sorry for that political stuff, it's always hard to get it right and that it makes sense, especially if you are using a different language (english is not my native language). ❤
@voltaicbore03 interesting
and this is why ff 14 does so well, They care about their western audience.
Duh, they're cash grab 99% of the time. Theres some that shine but as we've seen in the past, they've always turned to "Gimmie da money or you get no fun PEON!"
Honestly, for me the problem with MMO's comes up when you have to buy them first, and then there's still P2W mechanics in them. I can forgive aesthetic payment stuff (like buying skin packs for Titanfall 2) where you can show off some of the more unique designs that the creators worked on. But if I buy a game and then have to also pay for the ability to keep up with everyone else, I'm not going to stay invested in that game unless it has both a really good story and gameplay.
I understand in regards to F2P games because the microtransactions are how they make their money. MMO's with a subscription service should strive to make a good story and gameplay so that players will want to keep playing. Growing up where games were just the thing that came in the package, you bought the game so everything for it was right on that PS1, PS2, Xbox or PC disc... has just made it so... detestable to join into the modern games because they're so filled with gambling mechanics that it takes me out of my enjoyment. Yeah, you can ignore them, but when a game goes out of its way to shove its big 'ol lootbox mechanics in your face, it gets really obnoxious and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
5:54 as I wrote earlier somwhere, the most FAIR for us people would be something like DLC, big updates to the game with just customization items.
For example You have here Free to play game, if you like the game you can kind of buy the game for 5-0-60$ and you will get all those item shop items that are just cosmetics because the game isn't pay2win in any sorts.
Then the developer released a big update to the game which is set as DLC with new playable content maybe class etc, and you can again buy this DLC for 20-40$ and again you get a pakcage of cool armors, mounts that are just cosmetic stuff, some magic effects to the weapons that are also pure cosmetics etc.
The bundles of items for buying the game or DLCs is a lot cheaper than buying them separatelly from item shop.
That way the game cannot bring us too mutch GRIND because people cannot pay to skin grinding and some people will just leave if the grind is too mutch.
So the game should work just like all other single player RPG games, where you can grind but it isn't pain in the a$$, and at the same time you play with other people.
Also that is removing lazynes from developers, most of the time they will make one skin and demand 20$ for it, whchi is bullsh*t.
So you will ask, if there is no grind, everyone wil do content really fast and when nothing to do will leave the game.
So this is the point where the game must be good itself, not just brnging people ot play it just because of getting levels and grinding items, if after getting everything the game have nothing to offer, then the game is bad designed, the mechanics itself are just as simple as boring and everyone leaves.
The good combat is the core, the ai to create problems for players to solve in battle is also core of a good combat mechanic, where play skills matters the most. The good amount of possibilties with skills, free resets to try different builds and making really hard content at end game, that will take time to master the game by getting better and better. And giving cool cosmetic stuff when beat an hard Raid or dungeon so when someone wars an cosmetic for beating any end game content, they will know wow this guy is a god in this game, he beat it.
Most of mmorpgs aren't very good, people are playing them just because others play them and also they get better loot, but when they get everything, they realize the game don't have anything awesome to offer.
If they want to get some money from subscription for example, then I think the best option is cryptomining. You pay 5-10$ per month or while playing the game takes around 20% of your graphic card power for cryptomining, that way you don't pay from your credit card, instead they are using your PC power to pay for the servers, and their workers.
So if you don't play game too mutch, then don't pay 5-10$, 20% of your PC will work for them as long as you are playing.