Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were primarily responsible for the field testing, and drafting of tactical doctrine concerning the usage, deployment and maintenance of numerous pieces of Astartes equipment. From tanks, to dreadnought chassis, to aircraft, to advanced weaponry, and especially to Terminator Armor, the Iron Hands wrote the book on it. If the Mechanicum released a new piece of equipment intended for Astartes use, the Iron Hands were ALWAYS the first to know, and the first to receive a shipment. They would conduct rigorous training exercises, schematic analyses, and the first few combat deployments of everything the Astartes would get, including, arguably most notably, Terminator armor, and soon after these experiences, they would draft tactical doctrines, assess weaknesses accordingly, and report their findings not only to the Mechanicum, but through Ferrus, to other Astartes legions. The Iron Hands were, without a doubt, the Reseach and Development legion. And that is one of the most prominent reasons as to why the traitors feared them to such a degree. There was absolutely nothing the traitors could throw at them that the Iron Hands had not done themselves before. Anything even remotely technologically oriented the traitors could do was literally just taking pages out of Ferrus Manus’s playbook.
Two more clarifications to be made for the general Warhammer community: #1) "Decimate" does NOT mean what most people use it as. It means to reduce some force by 1/10. Perturabo decimated his Legion. The Tyranids did NOT decimate Tyran Prime, they OBLITERATED it. #2) Saturnine terminator armor is NOT named "Saturnine". It's most likely name is actually "Nocturne" pattern as told to us by Vulkan.
I meaaaan… he and his legion did field-test and draft tactical doctrine concerning the vast majority of Space Marine equipment that the Mechanicum manufactured during the crusade. Especially Terminator armor and tanks. So many armored vehicles were sent directly to the Iron Hands for testing, as well as the first-ever shipment of Cataphractii Terminator armor, and Ferrus Manus, based on his findings after rigorous training exercises and several combat deployments, as well as schematic analysis, basically wrote the book on how space marine terminators go to war. If it weren’t for him and the Iron Hands, the famed Deathwing of the 1st legion, the Atramentar of the 8th, even the Justaerin of the 16th, would be leagues behind every other legion’s first company.
The reason Abaddon is the biggest joke in all of the 40k due to the fact he has some of the most offensive, thickest plot armor ON TOP of the retroactive storytelling. There are tons of characters w/ that kind of plot armor and plenty w/ retroactive stories to make them look better but the fact he has both insults the readers/fans intelligence.
I would like to make one point though, a lot of people call abbadon a retcon but there is actually an old art book, forgot which one but I might be able to find a video on it, which mentioned him in a much earlier addition. GW has wanted to work with him for a while. And of-fucking course he has plot armor, so didn’t any primarch! He’s the god damned war master, you think if guilliman was face to face with szahrek he’d actually win? No. Would he survive? Yes. Plot armor. Some of our favorite loyalists have plot armor and even the most badass people like maugan have plot armor because slaanesh would’ve had his ass.
@0rangedrank506 Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. In a galaxy of world ending torpedoes, virtual almost god tier warriors etc plot armour needs to be a thing otherwise everyone of more would be dead after a brief appearance. There’s no way any of those beloved marines like Dante or Logan Grimnar would have survived to their current age. I don’t think it’s insulting to the reader as at the end of the day we’re taking part in a make believe sci-fi setting set tens of thousands of years in the future from now. There needs to be story and character development or it would be boring as hell but if it was realistic in the slightest they’d all be dead.
I dunno about that mate Logan Grimnar has personally taken out a few grey knights on the bridge of their own vessel and also carries a sanctified relic of khorne as his personal weapon. Dante slew the Swarm Lord, the supposedly single most powerful Tyranid Hive Creature and also Skarbrand, the Bloodthirster powerful and enraged enough to put a tiny chink in Khorne's own armour.
I am sorry, Guilleman is a Primarch, he has the resources of HALF the Imperium at his disposal. Abbadon has the actual power of 4 GODS running through him, while having their resources at his disposal. Not saying Abby is a failure, but good lord, to even pretend for a second that Girlieman has access to more power and more resources is a bit ridiculous.
That's cool mate though just note the Imperium is basically the entire galaxy whereas Chaos hold the most sway within the warp rather than reality. Also Guilliman is the Lord Regent meaning his word is law or rather Gospel, whereas there is absolutely no way Abaddon can come close to uniting all of Chaos under one banner due to the nature of the beast.
@@titanwargaming Lord Regent of the most broken, divided and corrupt form of the Imperium doesn't mean much. He cant even control Cawl and that dude is within arm's reach. I am not saying he has not sway nor no power, but to try and make the case that he has access to more resources than Abbadon and that he is a more powerful individual is a stretch. And he doesn't have to really unite Chaos, if Khorne tells Angron, go there and take your legion, Angron will do as he is told. Same thing with the demons. Also dont sell the power of the warp short...we all know how much damage the warp can do to those living in the materium, especially when wielded by very experienced pshykers against regular humans...even against astartes. Personally I think they are about evenly matched, just the various sources of their power coming from different areas.
i just noticed my responses are slightly on the aggressive side. Sorry about that, wasn't intended in that way. I am giving up smoking, so I am a bit more...terse than I normally would be.
Nah mate totally fine, no sweat. Good luck with quitting. I remember doing the same thing so can relate. In the end though it's more than worth it, just got to come out the other side to be able to look back to appreciate how much you overcome.
@@titanwargaming Yeah, I actually am now putting the money in a bank account I would spend for a pack of smokes every time I am tempted. It actually helps to see a reward for giving up :D Also, I am a CSM player so I may be a tad biased :D
I have such mixed feelings about Abaddon. On the one hand I've been a lifelong Chaos fanboy and it's nice to see a Chaos character with his power and accomplishments. On the other hand, he has a similar problem to Archaon in WHFB; when one guy is declared the greatest Chaos champion of all, it doesn't leave a lot of room for anyone else. Abaddon does have a tendency to steal the wins from other Chaos characters, so to speak. He is the only named Chaos character - aside from maybe Fabius Bile - to have actually accomplished anything significant in recent memory. The closest runner-up is probably Magnus, and even he never achieved complete success. Regardless of his level of success or power, Abaddon also just isn't an interesting character to me. He claims to believe Horus was weak and a failure, while dressing like him, acting like him, using his weapon, and still making his Legion wear their mourning black after ten-thousand years. The extent of his personality seems to be his complicated relationship with his dead Primarch, and his hatred of the Imperium. Then again, I haven't read any 40k fiction focused on the guy, so I could be speaking from a place of ignorance. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
@peterlepper5199 Thanks for commenting mate! I think you really hit the nail on the head where you mention their not being much room made for other characters. It's just my opinion, but I feel that if Chaos as a faction had more developed characters the way the Imperium does, who each had their own cool accomplishments and fleshed out stories such as Huron Blackheart, Decimus of the Night Lords, Haarken World Claimer, Kharn etc. then that would accentuate Abaddon's own narrative. For example alone it would be quite easy for a lot of people to claim say Logan Grimnar, Dante or Marneus Calgar are all riven with plot armour and don't make any sense but when you build them into the overarching Imperium narrative alongside other high achievers it gives them all scale.
I feel like with abadon he is just a macguffin. While he has been fleshed out more recently, I feel like the Red Corsair will cause a schism in chaos (which would be dope lore wise) how ever he just feels more like a bad trope from a 1000ft view.
Unlikely, but it depends on what machine spirits actually are. We know that Necron tech makes use of AIs, but much like Tau AI, they are never referred to as machine spirits. Still though, even though they almost certainly don't have machine spirits, it's technically possible for the AI to be infected and taken over by Chaotic scrapcode, though likely it will be more difficult to do than with other species AI since the Necrons have far more experience against Warp shenanigans than any other species, and depending on the Necrons and their tech in question, there might be a C'tan shard controlling the technology and providing an additional buffer against Chaotic interference.
I would assume machine spirit is more like computer programming with a huge set of what if= parameters over true AI. It simulates AI( compared to what we are capable of) due to being much more advanced, but, limited compared to AI. Also it lacks ability to leatn, unlike advanced AI.
@@Gringottone computer chips can easily be installed/ patched into weapons and tie into power armor. Now that doesn't mean it's the same for everything. I think it's moreso a superstitious blanket term to include those items too.
@@shanekelley9042 The concept of a Machine Spirit is akin to the Orc WAAAGH! belief, where the greater the collective faith or belief in a machine, the more likely it is to function optimally. Therefore, it is highly improbable that this entity can be classified as a form of true artificial intelligence. While it may exhibit conditional behaviors, such as if/then/else functions, this does not inherently qualify it as a form of genuine artificial intelligence.
hmm, while I do think that Abaddon being mocked as a failure is mostly a hold over from before the great rift when he had done nothing but fail I wouldn't say its fair to compare him to the Primarchs. Its impressive that he is the most powerful chaos marine but if the Imperium could focus its attention on Chaos as a whole instead of the Necrons, Orks and Tyrranids then he wouldn't stand a chance. Also he only had to blow up one (admittedly incredibly well defended) planet to cause the great rift. Its not like Guilleman or the Lion who have to retake lost territory one system at a time. I
@ShandoGuardian Thanks so much for commenting mate! Just to add a point about causing the great rift, Cawl explained in the Genefather novel that dozens if not hundreds of particular pylon worlds needed to be toppled in order to throw out the resonance between the pylons which kept the rift contained. I know this has been touched on a bit in the past but just think it's good it's being expanded in new lore. There's some notes on it in our recent Genefather video if you're interested here: th-cam.com/video/zG3VRq6wZSk/w-d-xo.html Also you're right I agree with your Primarch comparison completely. I guess what I'm trying to convey is what Abaddon has achieved recently in comparison, especially seeing as he is only one astartes. Roboute found it hard enough to even temporarily unites the fractious departments of the Imperium, imagine trying to unite a bunch of petulant chaos worshippers and daemons long enough to achieve anything?
It doesn't matter whether or not he won 13 times or lost 13 times he's the Roman Reigns of warhammer. No matter how much push GW gives him, he won't be it. warhammer deserves a cleverley written thematically concise villain, not a villain who throws tantrums when he gets beaten by an old human that's why he will always be a failure
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. I do get what you’re saying though I’m sure there’s plenty of others in the community that feel the same about the exploits of Guilliman, Eldrad, Dante and Logan Grimnar for example. Personally I think what sets Abaddon apart from characters such as those is that he has a lack of competition within his faction for cool characters who are at or around his level. If we learnt more about the exploits of kharn the betrayer, Huron black heart, decimus of the night lords etc they would prop up Abaddon’s own achievements and cool factor and give lore fans a bit of variety. Just my opinion.
Bro you used the Archwarhamer art in your intro, it literally has his name on the commissioned piece. I dont think he'd care its just funny Are you a fan of his by chance?
Hi Mate, I didn't realise if I'm totally honest. The artist I have it saved against is Brilliane Feldo. I wouldn't say I'm a fan of his work but in saying that I haven't watched any of his content for probably years now. Just in reference to artists, I list them all in the description of each video by order of the art appearance because I believe they deserve at least that much. Without the artists of the 40k community it would be considerably more difficult to make lore videos look good.
yea Roboute hasnt done enough . like except bringing the Primaris making few new chapters sending new primaris to every chapter out there Becaming the Imperial Regent fighting every Demon primarch out there now the Tyranids . and his not like back for 10.000 years
@peterga3658 @NancyDLaw Hi Guys, thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree with you that Roboute has achieved a lot since he’s been back, my comparison was between both of their most recent crusades, not the achievements of the characters. It’s not easy speaking up for one of the most loathed characters on the setting when it comes to Abaddon and in some ways I agree with what people say about him. The point I think a lot of people miss is that retcons do occur and so state the “new lore” but at the same time I understand turning Abaddon’s failures into triumphs wasn’t a great move by gw. If abaddon had more competition within the chaos faction for powerful, well liked characters then I personally think people would enjoy his lore more. Let’s get more in depth lore on huron, warsmith honsou, decimus the night lords prophet, kharn etc and their stories will intertwine into the chaos faction as a whole giving more understanding and even appreciation of Abaddon’s.
@@jkee9760 he could have only lost battles like 100% and still what he has done since it's return is more . We had so many chapters ready to die out and how many more dead already brought the primaris and the old astartes are now able to go through the upgrade we hadn't seen a change like that since the Astartes creation
@dominictaylor8672 Yeah you could certainly be onto something with that one mate! That's the way, Gap Games are amazing! If you're ever in the mood to support the channel just check out our link to GG in the description.
You’re 100% correct. Neither the Salamanders nor the Raven Guard were ever the most numerous legions. The Salamanders for their self-sacrificial philosophy and way of war, and the Raven Guard because of a gene-plague at first, then Horus forcing them into a frontline role in the last few years of the crusade. About 2/3rds of the Iron Hands were present on Istvaan V, and it took the combined strength of 8 traitor legions, various traitor Mechanicum assets and shitloads of Imperial army to bring them down. Horus was scared shitless of the Iron Hands, and Ferrus Manus, and that’s why the Dropsite Massacre was orchestrated. Horus’s last ditch attempt to take them off the board as soon as possible.
The emperor is dead. The emperor died in the M36 and been the lore since 1995. Since then he is has accented into god hood by the imperial belief in him as a god.
Abaddon sort of sucks because as fan since the 90's, Abaddon was just a fill in for the longest time. He was never "all that". I remember gaming and a discussion was, "which primarch is gonna take over". Maybe if you are new you can go with the whole, "Abaddon did all this stuff and nows it happening!", but if you actually are old enough to have been gaming over those decades in real life.... No, no F'ing way anyone at GW, or anywhere, had any plans for Abaddon. That has all been retconned. And, to be honest, the retcon of Abaddon makes a ton more sense and fixes alot of things, some of us will never view Failaddon as "all-that". I been with you a while now, and was floored when you said you are hoping for 8k subs by Christmas! Like how in the heck are you not bigger? Anyways, good luck. I been more and more into 40k again since I lost my father and had to become my mother's caretaker. Really fighting depression big time and 40k helps....
Thank you for the kind words mate. I’m sorry about your father. If you ever need to have a chat or just spend some time hobbying or gaming to escape it all, feel free to come on over to the discord. It’s very small at the moment but if you reach out I’m sure we can catch up for a game of Darktide or do some hobbying.
@@titanwargaming Yannow, I think I will take you up on that. I love the lore, always have, and love to delve into it. I absolute LOVE the new lore concerning the Lion, he is so much more relatable now.
Good on ya mate, it would be great to see you there. Yeah definitely agree about the Lion and looking forward to see what he gets up to next. I'm not super crash hot on the forest walking thing but I'm really eager to see how he goes about integrating into the unforgiven chapters and how he addresses the feud between the fallen and astartes.
Where the first time in a very long time a primitive world he was a rogue he visited this world of techno barbarian to see the ancient ways of making g and not using 4 it gives a presence in the you through trial crew trial and error for seeing into
Doesn't it need to be at least several centuries into the 42nd millennium if for no other reason than to explain all the Primaris running around with all the old chapters spread across the galaxy?
It was unfortunately retconned so that the events of the first two Dark Imperium books only pushed the timeline forward 12 years and not 112. It pushes the timeline towards the tail end of the 41st millennium but not quite into the 42nd. Personally I suspect that all these galaxy level threats such as the Necrons, Nids and Abaddon are all being worked up into a turn of the millennia 40k event or reset.
You got to Abaddon and dropped the ball. He was is a failure and GW knew it. So they came up with a way to turn all those failed black crusades into some end boss grand plan. That is why he is a failure. Are you new to 40k? Maybe you didn't know this?
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. I get what you’re saying and I remember the old eye of terror campaign back in the day where we could register our results in store or online to determine the winning faction. By the way chaos annihilated the combined forces of “order”. The way I figured it when approaching this video is that, as you say, Abaddon’s failures were retconned and that means that is now the new lore so I won’t pretend it isn’t?
@@titanwargaming Ah good, so you are familiar. I think when mentioning Abaddons "success" it is important to mention it was completely manufactured more than a decade after the fact. This Abaddon is not the original failbaddon. I can fully appreciate how bad ass he must be as of current lore as long as it is given to me with humble clarity.
All I need to know about the bugs is that when the Silent King became aware of them, he ended his exile. Let that sink in, an immortal mechanical machine saw this race, who cares only for consuming living, organic material, and went "yeap, this is a big problem". The bugs shouldn't even bother the Necrons, as they arent living organic material. Yes the Silent King saw in them an existential threat to his kind. So yeah, we have no idea what is coming.
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. Yeah that's a great point. The main reason the Silent King is concerned about the threat the Tyranids pose, besides he wouldn't have any galaxy to rule, is that if the Tyranids erase humanity then the Necrons lose the most ideal hosts to conduct their reverse bio transference into.
Look at it from the Tyranids perspective Adapting to the necrons wouldn't be completely impossible, making individual nids out of worms/bugs/microbes in a mimicry of living metal, that detach when hit by Gauss, making it MUCH less effective But it'd weaken then against other races So since the necrons are mostly asleep, ignore them until AFTER the rest of the galaxy is dead, then turn and eat the necrons, perhaps even adapting to eat necrons specifically at the cost of all else (because everything else is already dead, it won't matter) The Tyranids would also have a galaxy worth of biomass to throw at the already declining necron empire, they can't reproduce, so every loss they can't repair, every world destroyed, is permanent But the nids CAN farm, there is a world that they haven't consumed, but colonised, with their hive fleet acting more like pirates and raiders rather than normal nids Meaning the nids could replace their lost biomass
You know what I am tired I am traveling to for today I have reinvented cryopod technology I don't take I don't care how long it takes I'm moving from this galaxy to Andromeda in the most advanced cloaking text all the way from the Golden age of technology I'm leaving this guy makes I'm leaving this galaxy 13:49
Hah. The thought that Abaddon is in control over the four and not the other way round has to be the biggest misconception out there. You yourself said the four wants to keep the current status quo, not "win". And by keeping Abaddon as a thorn on the side of the Imperium instead of turning him into Horus 2.0 with all the excesses of power is exactly the way to go. So yes, he's incompetent by design. 10,000 years to achieve what a fraction of what the "weak" Horus did in 10 years. How impressive.🥴 As for Ferrus. He suffered the same issue as Horus. Bad writing. We kept getting told how badass they were but no books to elaborate. So thats a fault on BL side and less on the readers.
@W.H.138 You make some great points there mate, let me outline some of my own; Abaddon's strength of will far surpasses his own Primarch father's which is a massive statement in and of itself. The lore states each Chaos God wants Abaddon for themselves as a one up against the others but Abaddon knows this and won't allow his will to be broken giving into any one of them. He knows as soon as he does then he'll become a play thing that the chaos gods will become bored of very quickly. They prefer the chase. Abaddon still has long extended moments where he sits on his throne battling against the promises of false gods just as we experienced with Horus but the difference is Abaddon has endured it for millennia without giving in, Horus gave up in a handful of years, allowing his own plans to be usurped by the pantheon. When it comes to achievements another thing to remember is that Horus had the element of surprise, effectively removing the salamanders, raven guard and iron hands from the playing field as well as the influence of Ferrus Manus completely and Vulkan for the majority. Horus also had the advantage of using shock and awe in the way most didn't realise legions were even able to turn on the imperium as well as daemonic powers in a time where such things were almost completely indefensible against. I of course recognise how this has been turned this way and that over the years to create him into a bit of a Mary Sue compared to his actual achievements and his father's. Lastly, thank you for replying. I really enjoy having conversations about lore. I think by us being able to have conversations like this, it shows how much depth there is to the setting which is a win for everyone as we are able to enjoy it.
@@titanwargaming I can't agree with Abaddon having greater strength of will. I think that is patently false. We need to compare the kind of warp juice the gods pour into both of them. Abaddon has their blessings and protection but not much more, while Horus was given enough warp power to stand toe to toe against tired but prime Emperor, he was so overcharged on warp juice he could mind control Custodes to attack the Emperor. Being Chaos, that kind of power will only come with the appropriate cost, the fact that Horus only lost his mind over this and not devolve into a gibbering chaos spawn is a testament to how tough his mental fortitude was. The same amount of power being poured into Abaddon will outright just make him explode. Saying that Abaddon warding off their temptations vs Horus having to hold it together while possessing the powers of a god being on the same level is just preposterous. While you are right that by the outset of the HH, he had the advantage of surprise, it really did not last very long, the whole heresy lasted 10 years. Abaddon's advantage as of the 40k setting is much much much greater. With the Emperor entombed, the Imperium has only stagnated, causing multiple internal civil wars, Vandire for example. And then there's the external threats. The beast made it all the way to Terra, and Ghaz has stirred shit multiple times with Armageddon. The Necrons are waking up. The Tyranids are here, the Tau, small as they may yet be, is also a growing threat. I'm quite confident that had it been Horus instead of Abaddon in the lead, he would have ended the Imperium during any of these myriad external crisises. Thank the gods it's Abaddon in his place instead.
Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were primarily responsible for the field testing, and drafting of tactical doctrine concerning the usage, deployment and maintenance of numerous pieces of Astartes equipment. From tanks, to dreadnought chassis, to aircraft, to advanced weaponry, and especially to Terminator Armor, the Iron Hands wrote the book on it. If the Mechanicum released a new piece of equipment intended for Astartes use, the Iron Hands were ALWAYS the first to know, and the first to receive a shipment. They would conduct rigorous training exercises, schematic analyses, and the first few combat deployments of everything the Astartes would get, including, arguably most notably, Terminator armor, and soon after these experiences, they would draft tactical doctrines, assess weaknesses accordingly, and report their findings not only to the Mechanicum, but through Ferrus, to other Astartes legions. The Iron Hands were, without a doubt, the Reseach and Development legion. And that is one of the most prominent reasons as to why the traitors feared them to such a degree. There was absolutely nothing the traitors could throw at them that the Iron Hands had not done themselves before. Anything even remotely technologically oriented the traitors could do was literally just taking pages out of Ferrus Manus’s playbook.
Two more clarifications to be made for the general Warhammer community:
#1) "Decimate" does NOT mean what most people use it as. It means to reduce some force by 1/10. Perturabo decimated his Legion. The Tyranids did NOT decimate Tyran Prime, they OBLITERATED it.
#2) Saturnine terminator armor is NOT named "Saturnine". It's most likely name is actually "Nocturne" pattern as told to us by Vulkan.
Every time I watch one of your videos I think: My god this channel is criminally underrated.
Mate that is such an amazing compliment, thanks so much.
I actually like Ferus Manus....because hes a good representation of "i only help those who help themselves "
That's true mate, good call. I do hope we get some narrative exploring his character at some point.
I don't think Ferrus Manus is a real Primarch, he seems like Imperium Propaganda
While I main Admech and Raven Guard, I like the iron hands and I can say to you...eh you're right lol.
I meaaaan… he and his legion did field-test and draft tactical doctrine concerning the vast majority of Space Marine equipment that the Mechanicum manufactured during the crusade. Especially Terminator armor and tanks. So many armored vehicles were sent directly to the Iron Hands for testing, as well as the first-ever shipment of Cataphractii Terminator armor, and Ferrus Manus, based on his findings after rigorous training exercises and several combat deployments, as well as schematic analysis, basically wrote the book on how space marine terminators go to war. If it weren’t for him and the Iron Hands, the famed Deathwing of the 1st legion, the Atramentar of the 8th, even the Justaerin of the 16th, would be leagues behind every other legion’s first company.
The reason Abaddon is the biggest joke in all of the 40k due to the fact he has some of the most offensive, thickest plot armor ON TOP of the retroactive storytelling. There are tons of characters w/ that kind of plot armor and plenty w/ retroactive stories to make them look better but the fact he has both insults the readers/fans intelligence.
I would like to make one point though, a lot of people call abbadon a retcon but there is actually an old art book, forgot which one but I might be able to find a video on it, which mentioned him in a much earlier addition. GW has wanted to work with him for a while. And of-fucking course he has plot armor, so didn’t any primarch! He’s the god damned war master, you think if guilliman was face to face with szahrek he’d actually win? No. Would he survive? Yes. Plot armor. Some of our favorite loyalists have plot armor and even the most badass people like maugan have plot armor because slaanesh would’ve had his ass.
@0rangedrank506 Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. In a galaxy of world ending torpedoes, virtual almost god tier warriors etc plot armour needs to be a thing otherwise everyone of more would be dead after a brief appearance. There’s no way any of those beloved marines like Dante or Logan Grimnar would have survived to their current age. I don’t think it’s insulting to the reader as at the end of the day we’re taking part in a make believe sci-fi setting set tens of thousands of years in the future from now. There needs to be story and character development or it would be boring as hell but if it was realistic in the slightest they’d all be dead.
Sigismon’s (sp)
KILL shot should have taken Abbadon out. Plot armor indeed!
@@titanwargamingyeah but logan and dante and painted as the main antagonist and aren't written as complete jokes
I dunno about that mate Logan Grimnar has personally taken out a few grey knights on the bridge of their own vessel and also carries a sanctified relic of khorne as his personal weapon. Dante slew the Swarm Lord, the supposedly single most powerful Tyranid Hive Creature and also Skarbrand, the Bloodthirster powerful and enraged enough to put a tiny chink in Khorne's own armour.
I am sorry, Guilleman is a Primarch, he has the resources of HALF the Imperium at his disposal. Abbadon has the actual power of 4 GODS running through him, while having their resources at his disposal.
Not saying Abby is a failure, but good lord, to even pretend for a second that Girlieman has access to more power and more resources is a bit ridiculous.
That's cool mate though just note the Imperium is basically the entire galaxy whereas Chaos hold the most sway within the warp rather than reality. Also Guilliman is the Lord Regent meaning his word is law or rather Gospel, whereas there is absolutely no way Abaddon can come close to uniting all of Chaos under one banner due to the nature of the beast.
@@titanwargaming Lord Regent of the most broken, divided and corrupt form of the Imperium doesn't mean much. He cant even control Cawl and that dude is within arm's reach.
I am not saying he has not sway nor no power, but to try and make the case that he has access to more resources than Abbadon and that he is a more powerful individual is a stretch.
And he doesn't have to really unite Chaos, if Khorne tells Angron, go there and take your legion, Angron will do as he is told. Same thing with the demons.
Also dont sell the power of the warp short...we all know how much damage the warp can do to those living in the materium, especially when wielded by very experienced pshykers against regular humans...even against astartes.
Personally I think they are about evenly matched, just the various sources of their power coming from different areas.
i just noticed my responses are slightly on the aggressive side. Sorry about that, wasn't intended in that way. I am giving up smoking, so I am a bit more...terse than I normally would be.
Nah mate totally fine, no sweat. Good luck with quitting. I remember doing the same thing so can relate. In the end though it's more than worth it, just got to come out the other side to be able to look back to appreciate how much you overcome.
@@titanwargaming Yeah, I actually am now putting the money in a bank account I would spend for a pack of smokes every time I am tempted. It actually helps to see a reward for giving up :D
Also, I am a CSM player so I may be a tad biased :D
I have such mixed feelings about Abaddon. On the one hand I've been a lifelong Chaos fanboy and it's nice to see a Chaos character with his power and accomplishments. On the other hand, he has a similar problem to Archaon in WHFB; when one guy is declared the greatest Chaos champion of all, it doesn't leave a lot of room for anyone else. Abaddon does have a tendency to steal the wins from other Chaos characters, so to speak. He is the only named Chaos character - aside from maybe Fabius Bile - to have actually accomplished anything significant in recent memory. The closest runner-up is probably Magnus, and even he never achieved complete success.
Regardless of his level of success or power, Abaddon also just isn't an interesting character to me. He claims to believe Horus was weak and a failure, while dressing like him, acting like him, using his weapon, and still making his Legion wear their mourning black after ten-thousand years. The extent of his personality seems to be his complicated relationship with his dead Primarch, and his hatred of the Imperium.
Then again, I haven't read any 40k fiction focused on the guy, so I could be speaking from a place of ignorance. I'd be happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
@peterlepper5199 Thanks for commenting mate! I think you really hit the nail on the head where you mention their not being much room made for other characters. It's just my opinion, but I feel that if Chaos as a faction had more developed characters the way the Imperium does, who each had their own cool accomplishments and fleshed out stories such as Huron Blackheart, Decimus of the Night Lords, Haarken World Claimer, Kharn etc. then that would accentuate Abaddon's own narrative. For example alone it would be quite easy for a lot of people to claim say Logan Grimnar, Dante or Marneus Calgar are all riven with plot armour and don't make any sense but when you build them into the overarching Imperium narrative alongside other high achievers it gives them all scale.
I feel like with abadon he is just a macguffin. While he has been fleshed out more recently, I feel like the Red Corsair will cause a schism in chaos (which would be dope lore wise) how ever he just feels more like a bad trope from a 1000ft view.
Do Necron machines have machine spirits? If they do, can they be corrupted by Chaos even if the Necron themselves can't?
Unlikely, but it depends on what machine spirits actually are. We know that Necron tech makes use of AIs, but much like Tau AI, they are never referred to as machine spirits. Still though, even though they almost certainly don't have machine spirits, it's technically possible for the AI to be infected and taken over by Chaotic scrapcode, though likely it will be more difficult to do than with other species AI since the Necrons have far more experience against Warp shenanigans than any other species, and depending on the Necrons and their tech in question, there might be a C'tan shard controlling the technology and providing an additional buffer against Chaotic interference.
I would assume machine spirit is more like computer programming with a huge set of what if= parameters over true AI. It simulates AI( compared to what we are capable of) due to being much more advanced, but, limited compared to AI. Also it lacks ability to leatn, unlike advanced AI.
@@shanekelley9042 Considering that there is machine spirit in mechanical creations like guys, there is little to backup your claim.
@@Gringottone computer chips can easily be installed/ patched into weapons and tie into power armor. Now that doesn't mean it's the same for everything. I think it's moreso a superstitious blanket term to include those items too.
@@shanekelley9042 The concept of a Machine Spirit is akin to the Orc WAAAGH! belief, where the greater the collective faith or belief in a machine, the more likely it is to function optimally. Therefore, it is highly improbable that this entity can be classified as a form of true artificial intelligence. While it may exhibit conditional behaviors, such as if/then/else functions, this does not inherently qualify it as a form of genuine artificial intelligence.
Ghost Manus will return!!!
hmm, while I do think that Abaddon being mocked as a failure is mostly a hold over from before the great rift when he had done nothing but fail I wouldn't say its fair to compare him to the Primarchs. Its impressive that he is the most powerful chaos marine but if the Imperium could focus its attention on Chaos as a whole instead of the Necrons, Orks and Tyrranids then he wouldn't stand a chance. Also he only had to blow up one (admittedly incredibly well defended) planet to cause the great rift. Its not like Guilleman or the Lion who have to retake lost territory one system at a time. I
@ShandoGuardian Thanks so much for commenting mate! Just to add a point about causing the great rift, Cawl explained in the Genefather novel that dozens if not hundreds of particular pylon worlds needed to be toppled in order to throw out the resonance between the pylons which kept the rift contained. I know this has been touched on a bit in the past but just think it's good it's being expanded in new lore. There's some notes on it in our recent Genefather video if you're interested here: th-cam.com/video/zG3VRq6wZSk/w-d-xo.html
Also you're right I agree with your Primarch comparison completely. I guess what I'm trying to convey is what Abaddon has achieved recently in comparison, especially seeing as he is only one astartes. Roboute found it hard enough to even temporarily unites the fractious departments of the Imperium, imagine trying to unite a bunch of petulant chaos worshippers and daemons long enough to achieve anything?
It doesn't matter whether or not he won 13 times or lost 13 times he's the Roman Reigns of warhammer. No matter how much push GW gives him, he won't be it. warhammer deserves a cleverley written thematically concise villain, not a villain who throws tantrums when he gets beaten by an old human that's why he will always be a failure
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. I do get what you’re saying though I’m sure there’s plenty of others in the community that feel the same about the exploits of Guilliman, Eldrad, Dante and Logan Grimnar for example. Personally I think what sets Abaddon apart from characters such as those is that he has a lack of competition within his faction for cool characters who are at or around his level. If we learnt more about the exploits of kharn the betrayer, Huron black heart, decimus of the night lords etc they would prop up Abaddon’s own achievements and cool factor and give lore fans a bit of variety. Just my opinion.
Titan Wargaming is the okayest lore channel on TH-cam :)
Thanks mate, you’re the winner of the most mediocre fan award 🙃
@@titanwargaming it’s whst i deserve
Agreed, once the setting gets pushed forward, I'll probably be a bit upset. This is such a great setting, we should nurse it for as long as we can.
Bro you used the Archwarhamer art in your intro, it literally has his name on the commissioned piece.
I dont think he'd care its just funny
Are you a fan of his by chance?
concern trolling
Hi Mate, I didn't realise if I'm totally honest. The artist I have it saved against is Brilliane Feldo. I wouldn't say I'm a fan of his work but in saying that I haven't watched any of his content for probably years now. Just in reference to artists, I list them all in the description of each video by order of the art appearance because I believe they deserve at least that much. Without the artists of the 40k community it would be considerably more difficult to make lore videos look good.
‘ThE UltAmArinES aBSOrbeD the lOsT legions’…
yea Roboute hasnt done enough . like except bringing the Primaris making few new chapters sending new primaris to every chapter out there Becaming the Imperial Regent fighting every Demon primarch out there now the Tyranids . and his not like back for 10.000 years
I agree 💯
@peterga3658 @NancyDLaw Hi Guys, thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree with you that Roboute has achieved a lot since he’s been back, my comparison was between both of their most recent crusades, not the achievements of the characters. It’s not easy speaking up for one of the most loathed characters on the setting when it comes to Abaddon and in some ways I agree with what people say about him. The point I think a lot of people miss is that retcons do occur and so state the “new lore” but at the same time I understand turning Abaddon’s failures into triumphs wasn’t a great move by gw. If abaddon had more competition within the chaos faction for powerful, well liked characters then I personally think people would enjoy his lore more. Let’s get more in depth lore on huron, warsmith honsou, decimus the night lords prophet, kharn etc and their stories will intertwine into the chaos faction as a whole giving more understanding and even appreciation of Abaddon’s.
Also, Gman has received L after L many times. So he is a very humbled character
@@jkee9760 he could have only lost battles like 100% and still what he has done since it's return is more . We had so many chapters ready to die out and how many more dead already brought the primaris and the old astartes are now able to go through the upgrade we hadn't seen a change like that since the Astartes creation
Ferris mannis I believe got killed first because he was hourus's biggest threat and ill have to drop by gap games soon as well
@dominictaylor8672 Yeah you could certainly be onto something with that one mate! That's the way, Gap Games are amazing! If you're ever in the mood to support the channel just check out our link to GG in the description.
You’re 100% correct. Neither the Salamanders nor the Raven Guard were ever the most numerous legions. The Salamanders for their self-sacrificial philosophy and way of war, and the Raven Guard because of a gene-plague at first, then Horus forcing them into a frontline role in the last few years of the crusade. About 2/3rds of the Iron Hands were present on Istvaan V, and it took the combined strength of 8 traitor legions, various traitor Mechanicum assets and shitloads of Imperial army to bring them down. Horus was scared shitless of the Iron Hands, and Ferrus Manus, and that’s why the Dropsite Massacre was orchestrated. Horus’s last ditch attempt to take them off the board as soon as possible.
The emperor is dead. The emperor died in the M36 and been the lore since 1995. Since then he is has accented into god hood by the imperial belief in him as a god.
Abaddon sort of sucks because as fan since the 90's, Abaddon was just a fill in for the longest time. He was never "all that". I remember gaming and a discussion was, "which primarch is gonna take over". Maybe if you are new you can go with the whole, "Abaddon did all this stuff and nows it happening!", but if you actually are old enough to have been gaming over those decades in real life.... No, no F'ing way anyone at GW, or anywhere, had any plans for Abaddon. That has all been retconned. And, to be honest, the retcon of Abaddon makes a ton more sense and fixes alot of things, some of us will never view Failaddon as "all-that".
I been with you a while now, and was floored when you said you are hoping for 8k subs by Christmas! Like how in the heck are you not bigger? Anyways, good luck. I been more and more into 40k again since I lost my father and had to become my mother's caretaker. Really fighting depression big time and 40k helps....
Thank you for the kind words mate. I’m sorry about your father. If you ever need to have a chat or just spend some time hobbying or gaming to escape it all, feel free to come on over to the discord. It’s very small at the moment but if you reach out I’m sure we can catch up for a game of Darktide or do some hobbying.
@@titanwargaming Yannow, I think I will take you up on that. I love the lore, always have, and love to delve into it. I absolute LOVE the new lore concerning the Lion, he is so much more relatable now.
Good on ya mate, it would be great to see you there. Yeah definitely agree about the Lion and looking forward to see what he gets up to next. I'm not super crash hot on the forest walking thing but I'm really eager to see how he goes about integrating into the unforgiven chapters and how he addresses the feud between the fallen and astartes.
ALGORITHM
Thanks mate!
Failbaddon is a bullshit lie and Ferrus is awesome...
You won me as a subscriber.
Thank you mate!
Where the first time in a very long time a primitive world he was a rogue he visited this world of techno barbarian to see the ancient ways of making g and not using 4 it gives a presence in the you through trial crew trial and error for seeing into
Doesn't it need to be at least several centuries into the 42nd millennium if for no other reason than to explain all the Primaris running around with all the old chapters spread across the galaxy?
It was unfortunately retconned so that the events of the first two Dark Imperium books only pushed the timeline forward 12 years and not 112. It pushes the timeline towards the tail end of the 41st millennium but not quite into the 42nd. Personally I suspect that all these galaxy level threats such as the Necrons, Nids and Abaddon are all being worked up into a turn of the millennia 40k event or reset.
@@titanwargaming Personally, I hope not, lol. I think Age of Sigmar has nothing lore wise on old school Fantasy Battle. Don't want the same for 40K.
I feel ya mate
Subbing to make your Xmas wish bro, heres to 10k before Xmas.
Thanks so much mate!
You got to Abaddon and dropped the ball.
He was is a failure and GW knew it. So they came up with a way to turn all those failed black crusades into some end boss grand plan.
That is why he is a failure. Are you new to 40k? Maybe you didn't know this?
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. I get what you’re saying and I remember the old eye of terror campaign back in the day where we could register our results in store or online to determine the winning faction. By the way chaos annihilated the combined forces of “order”. The way I figured it when approaching this video is that, as you say, Abaddon’s failures were retconned and that means that is now the new lore so I won’t pretend it isn’t?
@@titanwargaming Ah good, so you are familiar. I think when mentioning Abaddons "success" it is important to mention it was completely manufactured more than a decade after the fact.
This Abaddon is not the original failbaddon.
I can fully appreciate how bad ass he must be as of current lore as long as it is given to me with humble clarity.
Yeah totally agree mate, thanks for commenting.
Save Ferrus!
@Bedsore If you could choose to bring Ferrus back to 40k in some way would you?
All I need to know about the bugs is that when the Silent King became aware of them, he ended his exile.
Let that sink in, an immortal mechanical machine saw this race, who cares only for consuming living, organic material, and went "yeap, this is a big problem".
The bugs shouldn't even bother the Necrons, as they arent living organic material. Yes the Silent King saw in them an existential threat to his kind. So yeah, we have no idea what is coming.
Hi Mate, thanks for commenting. Yeah that's a great point. The main reason the Silent King is concerned about the threat the Tyranids pose, besides he wouldn't have any galaxy to rule, is that if the Tyranids erase humanity then the Necrons lose the most ideal hosts to conduct their reverse bio transference into.
Look at it from the Tyranids perspective
Adapting to the necrons wouldn't be completely impossible, making individual nids out of worms/bugs/microbes in a mimicry of living metal, that detach when hit by Gauss, making it MUCH less effective
But it'd weaken then against other races
So since the necrons are mostly asleep, ignore them until AFTER the rest of the galaxy is dead, then turn and eat the necrons, perhaps even adapting to eat necrons specifically at the cost of all else (because everything else is already dead, it won't matter)
The Tyranids would also have a galaxy worth of biomass to throw at the already declining necron empire, they can't reproduce, so every loss they can't repair, every world destroyed, is permanent
But the nids CAN farm, there is a world that they haven't consumed, but colonised, with their hive fleet acting more like pirates and raiders rather than normal nids
Meaning the nids could replace their lost biomass
I actually like Abaddon and Lucius.
Me too mate. Love Chaos characters.
No TTS memes references?
Lol not today but that's a really good call mate. Should probably look into that for a video or Short one day.
overdone. unfunny.
You know what I am tired I am traveling to for today I have reinvented cryopod technology I don't take I don't care how long it takes I'm moving from this galaxy to Andromeda in the most advanced cloaking text all the way from the Golden age of technology I'm leaving this guy makes I'm leaving this galaxy 13:49
Hah. The thought that Abaddon is in control over the four and not the other way round has to be the biggest misconception out there. You yourself said the four wants to keep the current status quo, not "win".
And by keeping Abaddon as a thorn on the side of the Imperium instead of turning him into Horus 2.0 with all the excesses of power is exactly the way to go. So yes, he's incompetent by design. 10,000 years to achieve what a fraction of what the "weak" Horus did in 10 years. How impressive.🥴
As for Ferrus. He suffered the same issue as Horus. Bad writing. We kept getting told how badass they were but no books to elaborate. So thats a fault on BL side and less on the readers.
@W.H.138 You make some great points there mate, let me outline some of my own;
Abaddon's strength of will far surpasses his own Primarch father's which is a massive statement in and of itself. The lore states each Chaos God wants Abaddon for themselves as a one up against the others but Abaddon knows this and won't allow his will to be broken giving into any one of them. He knows as soon as he does then he'll become a play thing that the chaos gods will become bored of very quickly. They prefer the chase. Abaddon still has long extended moments where he sits on his throne battling against the promises of false gods just as we experienced with Horus but the difference is Abaddon has endured it for millennia without giving in, Horus gave up in a handful of years, allowing his own plans to be usurped by the pantheon.
When it comes to achievements another thing to remember is that Horus had the element of surprise, effectively removing the salamanders, raven guard and iron hands from the playing field as well as the influence of Ferrus Manus completely and Vulkan for the majority. Horus also had the advantage of using shock and awe in the way most didn't realise legions were even able to turn on the imperium as well as daemonic powers in a time where such things were almost completely indefensible against.
I of course recognise how this has been turned this way and that over the years to create him into a bit of a Mary Sue compared to his actual achievements and his father's.
Lastly, thank you for replying. I really enjoy having conversations about lore. I think by us being able to have conversations like this, it shows how much depth there is to the setting which is a win for everyone as we are able to enjoy it.
@@titanwargaming I can't agree with Abaddon having greater strength of will. I think that is patently false. We need to compare the kind of warp juice the gods pour into both of them. Abaddon has their blessings and protection but not much more, while Horus was given enough warp power to stand toe to toe against tired but prime Emperor, he was so overcharged on warp juice he could mind control Custodes to attack the Emperor. Being Chaos, that kind of power will only come with the appropriate cost, the fact that Horus only lost his mind over this and not devolve into a gibbering chaos spawn is a testament to how tough his mental fortitude was. The same amount of power being poured into Abaddon will outright just make him explode. Saying that Abaddon warding off their temptations vs Horus having to hold it together while possessing the powers of a god being on the same level is just preposterous.
While you are right that by the outset of the HH, he had the advantage of surprise, it really did not last very long, the whole heresy lasted 10 years. Abaddon's advantage as of the 40k setting is much much much greater.
With the Emperor entombed, the Imperium has only stagnated, causing multiple internal civil wars, Vandire for example. And then there's the external threats. The beast made it all the way to Terra, and Ghaz has stirred shit multiple times with Armageddon. The Necrons are waking up. The Tyranids are here, the Tau, small as they may yet be, is also a growing threat. I'm quite confident that had it been Horus instead of Abaddon in the lead, he would have ended the Imperium during any of these myriad external crisises. Thank the gods it's Abaddon in his place instead.
That's all good mate. I appreciate your taking the time to comment and let me know your perspective. Have a good one.
@@titanwargaming same same haha. A civil discourse is always enjoyable, whether we agree or disagree