Is S-CINETONE really better than SLOG3 in LOW LIGHT? Sony a7IV
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- If you're new to Sony or if you are trying to learn how to shoot in a log profile, you may have heard that Log isn't great for low light. But I wanted to know if that was true, or to what extent it might be true.
#SonyA7IV #slog #scinetone #lowlight
For more in depth explanations on how to expose low light check out these other videos:
Jacques Crafford: • How to EXPOSE SLOG3 Co...
Harv: • How To Expose SLOG3 Wi...
Jason Morris: • AVOID Over Exposing on...
Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
3:27 - Differences between S-Cinetone and SLog
5:09 - Exposing for SLog
10:09 - Side by Side Comparison
11:41 - Best tip for best results
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Thanks for creating this video. It is a lot of help. And you explain it well.
I loved that intro man! I know I'm late to the channel, but keep it up! All this was really helpful
Made the switch from my GH5/S5 in January to the A7IV and I’m stoked to see this kind of content 🤟🏾
Awesome! It's definitely exciting for a change of pace, and the learning curve hasn't been as hard as I thought it would be. I've found the a7iv to be very intuitive.
Killed this one dude! I’ve always struggled with s-log and this was definitely helpful.
Thanks, Ryan! Means a lot!
That cinematic opening. Nice!
Great video bro 🔥🔥🔥 very helpful 🙏🏻 I'm shocked you just have 170 subscribe 🤯 you must have more
Thanks I’m glad it was helpful to you! Just getting started out with the channel. The kind words mean a lot!
Just came across your video and instantly subscribed, liked and hit the bell icon. Absolutely loved this video, we're definitely seeing you climb to a million subs in no time. Keep it coming man! 🔥
Thanks! Means a lot!
well done! thanks for sharing.
Really enjoyed watching my friend! 🔥🔥
Thank you!
@@zachwilkins your welcome
Great content! And also you are so sweet. Thanks Zach
Thanks! Glad it was helpful
Loved the intro. Inspires me to want to film more and have fun with it. Your personal findings are interesting, I was always advised to over expose in slog. The thinking was that by over exposing, enough light is provided for the shadows, providing more scope to manipulate in post. I will have to experiment some more, as not really explored cinetone much.
Thanks for this video ! Definitely depends on the content like you said (and if the editing time is worth a lot of color grading or not), it's good to be comfortable working with either one, thanks for a great video !
Thanks, so true!
great content and very entertaining! love the info. I'm switching from the Canon 90D to this camera.
Awesome, good luck and happy filmmaking!
Nice video, nice tips. Thanks. 👍👍
Thanks, glad you liked it!
Thanks for this bro!
Glad it helps!
Love this !!
Thanks, glad it was helpful!
Zach, that intro was insane!
Thanks! I published it as it's own video with a little more visual effects
Holymoly now I understand!
Basically the base ISO at which the A7IV is driven at are ISO 100 & ISO 400.
Slog3 takes the base ISO that the sensor is driven at and raises it by 3V which has something to do with the gamma curve. I can't explain it technically without making errors.
So ISO 100 in S-Cinetone would be ISO 800 in Slog3. ISO 1600 in S-Cinetone is ISO 12800 in Slog3. Also S-Cinetone seems to match the ISO levels of RAW photos.
So this means that the famous ISO 12800 of the FX3 and A7SIII is basically an ISO 1600 image, which is two stops brighter than the A7IV and as clean as the ISO 100.
This also means to match the ISO 12800 image in photo mode, you'd have to take an ISO 1600 photo in RAW
yooo that intro was hype
Thanks!
You deserve many more subs sir.
Thank you! That’s very kind of you. Maybe some day
thanks for this video man. I am gonna shoot a Higher Project (for me) Witz the A7VI. looking forward
Best of luck!
Bro! Excellent production start to finish 👌🏽💯 Thanks for sharing the tips on SLOG needing 10bit; I’ve been shooting in Cine on my a7iii for about 6 months now and like it, but I’m ready to upgrade it 👍🏽
Thanks man! Cine is still good but I found I got the best results with HLG 2 on the a7iii and a7c. 10 bit is a game changer!
@@zachwilkins Ok thanks for the feed back! I will try HLG 2 out this weekend 👍🏽💯
Great video! In your talking portions (and especially when you do a cut where it zooms in on your face) I see some digital noise or something similar going on under your eyes on the skin and sometimes a little on the forehead. Any idea what might be going on there? I don't think I saw it any of the test shots from your short film portion.
Yeah ironically that's the result of me not practicing what I preached in the video. I got rushed, and probably a little cocky and forgot to check my false color before recording. So what you're seeing is me trying to lower the luminance of my skin because it was a little too hot for my liking. Lol
Great breakdown of the two picture profiles! I also recently sold my GH5 to get the A7iv & A7C.. #sonygang
Nice! No regrets
🎉 ahahah intro is awesome!
I’ve checked twice if you really got so small subs… really your content deserves for 293k not 293… +1 from me - also a user of Sony a7iv. Cheers 🍻
Thanks for the encouragement! 🍻
Just subscribed !!!!
Thanks for the support! You were my 100th sub!
This video lead me to next rabbit hole. How to use false Color with my monitor and slog! Thanks brother.
And thanks for the comment! Best of luck! I've enjoyed the rabbit hole for sure.
Great video 👍🏾…I’m upgrading from Canon M50 to the Sony A7IV. New for me as well. Thanks for your content. Subscribed!
Oh and by the way…that short film was outstanding!
Thanks! Welcome!
For the full frame and APSC stuff, ALWAYS shoot in slog3 10 but. You can apply SLOG3 to S-Cine LUT in post of that’s what floats your boat.
Keep it up man. I started with Slog 3 for Videos but quickly got frustrated. One bg mistake I made was filming in 8bit instead of 10bit on my A7IV. Currently I am doing a lot in S-Cinetone b/c I just don't enjoy color grading that much. At least not yet....But great video and looking forward for more vidz. See you around.
Thanks! S cinetone is great. Took me a while to get used to grading log for sure
Hi there ... what is the max ISO you can use in S-Cinetone without ruining your footage ? Thx !
@@elmono3939 base iso A7iv
Slog3 800 and 3200 ISO
S-Cinetone 125 and 500 ISO
THANKS!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video and very helpful information thank you. Isn't the1st base ISO for the A7IV in SLOG3 at ISO 800? And what picture profile were you shooting in for the most part of this video? (with the blue background)
Yes! Good catch. I must have misspoke when I said 640 because I was visualizing the bars on the numbers. So technically it is 800 and you can see that on other tests people have done. All the talking head stuff with the blue background was in slog3.
@@zachwilkins Sony a7iv has a double native iso in slog3 it's 800 and 3200 use this.
Yep! Thanks.
One question: where did u get the Batman background music?! Lol love it!
Lol thanks! I got it from Epidemic Sound. I float between that and soundstripe but most of this stuff on this channel is epidemic
Nice video! But honestly I want to mention that I currently use the Sony A7III and recommend everyone to shoot in S-Log 2 🙏🏼
I have a bunch of videos on this topic and it’s definitely the best and easiest way to get a good image out of this camera ☺️
Anyways I just ordered the a7iv and I’m really excited about 4:2:2 10 bit footage and of it’s actually worth it 😁
Awesome! I just never could get good results with it and the videos I watched at the time showed lots of color splotching with it because of the 8 bit. So ended up going with HLG 2. Thanks for sharing though! I'm sure there was stuff I wasn't getting right.
Same here with the Sony A6300. S-Log2 is the best. While S-Log3 is totally useless with the 8bit videos.
Can't wait to have the A7 IV!
Same here with the a6600. I couldn't get slog 2 or 3 to look good. Hlg2 was the sauce for me.
10 bit will be great for HSL mask qualifiers. It’s really hard to get a clean selection with 8 bit.
So what is the maximum usable ISO in S-Cinetone I can use without introducing too much noise ?
Would like to see what those two shots - overexposed slog3 + rec709 lut and the “properly” exposed equivalent - look like once evened out to match each other in post. I think the point with overexposure is to then pull everything down a bunch, and many LUTs factor that in
That's in there for a hot second. It was hard to recover in that shot tbh
I love SLOG3 for my Sony FX6
It's great!
Thank you for Video, es ist am Ende auch eine Geschmackssache 😉✌️aber eine Bessere Kontrolle ist wirklich mit Monitor und Die Slog Kontrolle..✅️✌🏼
I'm trying to figure out why you only have 351 subscribers. Great piece in the beginning, though adding a quick "Shot in Cinetone" would help tie it in to the theme of the video. Your comparisons are great and informative. I would have reshot the mistakes instead of captioning the corrections. Not a huge deal but showing those mistakes make sponsors and marketers hesitant send you review materials. However, I know how tough it is when you realize mistakes, days later, in post...same clothes, same lights, same look are a total pain to replicate.
Don't listen to me. You're doing better than I am! Great stuff and I look forward to more.
Thanks just started this year! It’s tough trying to be consistent with everything else going on so yeah going back to reshoot… sometimes good enough just has to be good enough. Even though the perfectionist in me may hate that lol
@@zachwilkins I'm desperately trying to learn that lesson right now. I keep telling myself, "Done is better than perfect." Maybe that's a tattoo idea...
a7iv native second iso in slog3 is 3200, ive tried at night and a lot of noise haha, on the other hand in scinetone there was no noise for same settings, and just to let you know sciniton profile native iso is different from slog3, ye its lower
First time watching you and wow got me there lol
Lol thanks for watching!
😍😍
I know this is kinda of an old video, but I still wanted to point out one thing: If converted to REC709 correctly, the exposure and noise level of both the S-Cinetone and the S-Log3 footage should be almost the same at their base ISO with identical settings. As an example, if you shoot a Scene on the A7IV with SLog3, SutterSpeed 1/60, Aperture at F2.8 at the base ISO of 800 and convert that file using the Color Space Transform in Davinci Resolve, it should look nearly identical to a video of the same scene shot in S-Cincetone with SutterSpeed 1/60, Aperture at F2.8 at the base ISO of 125. I found this to not always be completly true (for S-Cinetone the base ISO seems to be producing images that are about a stop darker than S-Log3 at its base iso, so the equivalant to ISO 800 in SLOG3 would be closer to ISO 200 or 320 in S-Cinetone, not actually 125. But the dynamic range will be larger if exposed at 125). The histograms of the unedited files will look very different and that results in the camra showing an s-log flies as being overexposed, when it is, in fact, not. As for why there appears to be more noise in the S-Log3 Video, that largly comes down to the fact, that the Slog video contains more information in both the shadows as well as the highlights. Those information also include noise, especially at the low end. S-Cinetone on the other hand does not contain as much information and applies a much narrower color space as well as a stronger contrast. This results in there being less visible noise in the S-Cinetone files streight out of camera. But after transforming Slog into the same color space and gammut, as well as applying contrast to the image, the noise levels should be very similar.
For a more in-depth look on how and why that works, i would recommend looking at one of Gerald Undones videos on the topic, i.e. th-cam.com/video/D2iqEDUe1qg/w-d-xo.html or th-cam.com/video/ptJuI1XovaU/w-d-xo.html
Wow thanks for that comment! That clears up a lot! I definitely didn’t understand how much different profiles were affected by their base ISOs
I recently bought the a7iii, sigma 16mm lens and I’m just learning how to use all of these to update my beauty videos.the only light that I have is a ring light and 2 rgb bars. I’m dying lol.
Nice! Watch some lighting technique videos. You can do a lot with a little!
Sub+! Nice video! Came from Lumix S5 which i loved soo much! But somehow Sony a74 got me =)
Welcome! I've not regretted the switch!
Hi Zach! Thanks for the comparison. Maybe you can help me with something, I see you have an external monitor/recorder. I want to know if the a7iv retains face af while filming in 4k internally and using an external monitor. Have you by any chance tested this before?
Hey Matheus! Yes, it's just a monitor but it does retain the eye af. In fact, I have it set to show me the square over the eye on the sony LCD, and I have focus peaking turned on, on my monitor. So I can always know it is working. I've used it both on an external monitor that's connected to the HDMI and also while monitoring on my phone via wireless connection
@@zachwilkins thanks for the reply! I had this doubt for a while, glad you could answer me. Keep up the good work with the channel, cheers!
Looks like a DowntownIndy Shot! That’s where I Live! 🙌🏾
Same! It's a great place!
also been curious… slog3 second iso 12800 and scinetone is 2000 so…. does that mean slog3 is better in lowlight? I really been looking for a video explanation on this because lowlight is very important to me
Great video! I do believe the base ISO is 800 not 640
Thanks! Yes, you are correct. I misspoke. Some people say they find a second one at 3200 as well even though it's not technically a second base ISO according to sony I believe.
so for 7:22 slog3, u recommend bumping up the iso even if it introduces noise? like shown in the vid at 25600 ISO
No I do not recommend that. I was just demonstrating how the two profiles are different.
Informative. What about using HLG-3 in a7iv ?
I used that for the a7iii but I haven’t for the iv
@@zachwilkins ok
I have got a ZVE1 and find S Log 3 noisy, even with a 1.7+ over exposure, compared to S Cinetone. This surprised me as I thought with its higher base ISO it would be better.
I personally found with my A7IV that I don’t like to over expose Slog3 more than 1 stop. I’m like 0-1. I’m still learning as well but this is how I feel about it.
Yeah I agree. That’s pretty much how I do it at this point as well
Did you say you don't over expose for Slog-3? +1.7 seemed very bright. Also are you using Sony Luts?
It depends on the situation as to how I'll expose. I was using just sony's conversion to rec709 lut in this video
To your point about false color…I love false color but have only used it with cameras (like canon c70) that call for exposing log neutrally, right down the middle. But for Sony and needing to overexpose, wouldn’t the IRE numbers your mentioning still need to be overexposed? For example, Gerald said 41 ire is for a gray card. He then mentioned that the gray card should show up in the 50-55 ire though to account for the need to overexpose slog3. I ask this because sometimes when I’m exposing for skin tones, my overall image (fx3 slog3) is not overexposed but my skin tones look good when I set zebras to 60-64 for my Caucasian skin in a darkish interview setup. I guess I’m asking if, when using false color, are you still overexposing? Should I look to expose skin tones the next color up the scale from the typical one. If pink is the correct ire for skin on my particular monitor, do I need to go up a color to the next ire range to account for overexposure? Lol honestly…it’s the only thing I truly dislike about Sony cameras. I hate the exposure guessing game!
Yeah i've never used log for any other cameras before so canon sounds nice in that regard! I haven't used a gray card, but I can tell you I don't overexpose for the skin tones when I talk about those numbers. I don't use the next color up. I just trust what the false color chart is telling me for skin tones. When I've tried to overexpose the skin tones for slog 3 it doesn't look great imo. "Overexposing" is so situational too because of the way the metering works. You could have a dark scene with one backlight that is blown out and the metering will compensate and tell you you're overexposed because it takes the average. So it really just depends on your particular scene which is why this seems to be so complicated and you can't trust the metering lol
👍
ETTR dosnt work if you overexposed with ISO only with Aperture and shutter speed you get ETTR. so u should stay at native iso in PP8 Slog-3 for the Sony a7IV is 800 and 3200 for better image quality, btw great video !!
Awesome info, thanks!
Sonys picture profiles have different native isos ,A7IV S-cinetone have base iso 125 and second base is 500, Slog-3 have first base iso 800 and second 3200.So as You see they also different from A7S3, Anyway general rule is to stay as close as possible to base iso. Base isos have most of dynamic range and least of noise.
Awesome, thanks!
Second iso in slog3 is iso12800 and not 3200
@@divanemedia6233 That's for the a7siii, not the iv
@@zachwilkins oh my bad thats correct. I did read it wrong😅 Was not aware that is was about the a7iv
I would say slog 2 on a7iii is ok to use. Not slog 3 though. But due to 8 bit only basic grading. On a7iv i use slog3, the 10bit 4:2:2 is awesome, but it's not great for run&gun because you need to ETTR constantly
yeah that''s been kinda my experience. The colors just tend to band and get splotchy real quick with the 8 bit. I feel like run and gun with log is just tricky in general lol but I'm still learning
Would love the Sony A74 one day
This is the first time I've upgraded in 3 years, but saving up and getting it was worth it!
@@zachwilkins Going to have to save up myself
What should I set as a beginner and total editing noob?` Especially for family movies
I would do s-cinetone for beginners. It'll give a natural look that still has a good pop of contrast and the right amount of vibrance. Very little color grading.
1st view & comment
Lol congrats! Thanks for watching
Everyone says s cinetone looks amazing with no grade and you can have quick turn arounds, but when I’ve been trying it it was so desaturated ? Like I don’t think I can deliver such a desaturated image to a client. Is this just the a7iv or do people generally add saturation on s cinetone ?
I think it depends on your environment where you are filming and your other settings like white balance and such. I've never really had a problem with saturation, but you can always add some back in quickly in post. You'll have most flexibility if you're shooting in 10 bit. I'm pretty sure s-cinetone is the same regardless of which sony you use.
i hit the thumb button b4 I finished wat ching. different!!
Awesome thanks!
Idk brother, I really hated the highlight roll off of S-Cinetone. When I had the A7iv SLOG was beast even in low light.
Yeah that's why I liked slog better even in low light. Someone was saying pp2 was best for low light on the a7iv but I haven't tried that yet
Hi Zach, thank you for the video! I am always puzzled when people are able to get good footage at ISO 12800, but I have not tested it in a "normal" setting yet.
As a new owner of the A7IV I find it really difficult to find the right settings for low light in my scenario. I film the light beam of flashlights for my work.
This means I need a fixed exposure/ISO so that I can accurate show the differences between brightness modes and even compare several models with each other. The light beams have a brightness of between 0.5 and 25000 lumens and I have to prioritize a realistic end result over ideal noise levels. Most of the surroundings are black or in deep shadows, so noise is visible even at very low ISO and no camera is able show both the brightest and the dimmest lights without the highlights getting completely blown out.
I still have to make more comprehensive tests, but for now I film without a picture profile either with a native lense at F2.8, 1/25 and ISO 1600 (little noise) or 3200 (very noticeable noise, but still okay) or a faster APS-C lense at F1.4 1/25 and ISO 800 which produces about as much noise as the native lense at ISO 1600. I then increase the highlights a bit and decrease the shadows in post, to more accurately show both the concentrated spot in the middle and the less bright spill on the outside parts of the light beam. This keeps noise in the dark areas and the light beam at a minimum.
S-Log-3 gets very close in terms of accurately showing the highlights and it can even deal with up to 12000 lumens at my settings without completely blown out highlights, but the resulting image is way too dark with too much noise. Raising the shadows to a realistic level increases noise to an unbearable level even at ISO 800.
I have created some test footage to compare no profile, PP02, Slog-3 and S-Cinetone in more detail, but I have yet to find the time to analyze it. My use case seems to be so niche that I can't really find any good suggestions for it.
That said, even the result of my current settings is still a huge improvement from my Alpha 6400 which had good results at ISO 400 and really capped at ISO 800.
Hi! That’s definitely a very niche use case. It sounds like with that kind of lighting you will struggle with most cameras to get both the highlights and shadows because those are extreme ends of the spectrum. That being said if I understand you correctly I would definitely use slog 3 and expose for either the highlights or the shadows depending on what you’re going for. (Probably highlights?)
Is it something you can do two takes and expose for both highlights and shadows and then combine them in post? Or maybe even a blue screen and replace with the shadows you want? I would definitely shoot on a full frame lens with an aperture of 1.4 or 1.7
@@zachwilkins I have my eyes on the Sony 20mm F1.8. It should be fast enough so that I can reduce the ISO to 1600 or perhaps even 800 and it is also very wide which is advantageous to show off some of the flashlights with a floodlight beam. The alternative would be the Sony or Sigma 24mm F1.4 which should also work. Since I also use the camera for some private videos, the wider lense would be nicer so in case I want to try my hand at vlogging. Obviously the A7SIII would have been optimal, but since I have to buy the camera and lenses myself and I also have to take photos for my job, I opted for the A7IV and happily saved about 1400€ part of which I invested into a lense.
Unfortunately, I can't combine/overlay several takes. It's a great idea and it would be ideal, but I film these clips outdoors and move the light beam so that I can show how it illuminates different parts and distances of the surroundings. Picture me standing on a field with the forest about 200m away and moving the light beam slowly across the field towards the trees. The whole point is to show the customers what the light of the flashlight is like and the settings have to be at least similar in all of these outdoor clips even for future videos so that they can compare the light output. This means I can't expose for the highlights. If I do so for the brightest setting, most of the other beams won't even be visible to the camera. The difference between 25000 lumens and, say 200, is like day and night
@@MiroAcronymity yeah that'd be awesome! sounds like you know what you're doing
Hi @@zachwilkins, I finally got around to analyzing my test footage. The scenario is as described in the last post: I am standing on a field and targeting the light beam towards the forest. I have tested both the native 28mm lens at F2.8 and the 16mm APS-C lense at F1.4 and checked the noise levels with the demo version of Neat Video Denoiser.
I have tested no picture profile, PP02, PP09 and PP11:
- PP11 and no picture profile produce the same good noise levels (0.6/800 and 1.2/3200), but S-Cinetone is not suitable for my use case because the highlights are more overblown and the shadows are nowhere close to black which leads to more visible noise in the dark areas.
- PP02 produces noticeably less noise, but shows slightly fewer details in the shadows and highlights are noticeably less bright.
- S-Log 3 is completely unusable for me. It produces several times more noise than PP02 and even the dual ISO makes no difference here (PP02: 0.5/800 and 0.9/3200; PP09: 2.1/800 and 2.3/3200). The image is also much, much less bright after applying the neutral Phantom Lut.
Since I crush the shadows a bit to reduce the visible noise, I will likely choose PP02 over filming with no picture profile. However, highlights are less bright than without a picture profile, so I am not sure yet. Filming with the 16mm APS-C at F1.4 produces more noise than filming with the 28mm at 2.8 when choosing the same ISO levels, however ISO 800 (denoiser score of 0.8) with the 16mm produced a brighter image with less noise than the 28mm at ISO 3200 (0.9). The brightness seems to be about equivalent to ISO 4000 with the 28mm so it produces noticeably less noise at the same brightness level. However, the 28mm lens is more desirable for me because it produces a sharper image and I can zoom in at a constant F2.8 to show how far the beam reaches. It looks much better than cropping in in post. In the future, I will use the Sony 20mm F1.8 where I should get exactly the brightness level I want at ISO 800 or perhaps 1600 with very low noise which is fantastic. In post, I increase the highlights and crush the darkest shadows, but also decrease the rest of the shadows so that I can show more of the darker areas of the light beam. This allows me to film at ISO 3200 instead of 6400 to reduce noise.
Edit: I checked in Lumetri Scope and PP11 is overall brighter than no picture profile but it has the same noise levels. It might be the best profile after all if I can achieve the same brightness at a lower ISO. I'll have to check it one more time.
Wow that's very thorough! Thanks for sharing all that! The only thing I'll add is that I would use PP08 for SLog3 rather than PP09. It's easier grade and generally does a better job in my opinion. But for your very specific use case it sounds like you're finding what works for you, and that probably is s-cinetone from the sounds of things!
What is your iso on the footage?
It was 3200 I believe. I may have had to push to 4000
@@zachwilkins that looks clean! I tried 3200iso on slog3 last night and the grain is too obvious in areas where the light is dim and diffused but very clean on areas that are well lit. Also is the noise on ISO 800 the same as 3200?
@@JesAbella That's strange to me you are getting noisy footage at that low of ISO. Not sure about the 800 vs 3200 because I never see any noise at those levels
@@zachwilkins i learned that I have to expose the footage properly on slog3 to prevent that much noise :D
Lesson here is, stop looking for the easy way and learn to use slog3, it's the future. Going forward, most cameras will have higher and higher base iso (talking about the fx30 with base isos of 800 and 2500).
PP2 is the best profile for low light.
I've never used it so I'll have to check it out!
@@zachwilkins it’s my favorite at night and indoors. In daytime outside Slog3 and S-Cinetone.
I've seen a few people talk about it, but I feel like it doesn't get much attention. What makes it different or better at lower lit scenarios?
@@zachwilkins just better shadows and contrast. You don’t have to do much too it. Very cinematic
Awesome video buddy just subscribed, I'm on the same journey as you with the A7IV if you wanna check me out 👊
Dope!