S-Cinetone better than S-Log 3? Truth is...
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A real-world faceoff to help you decide which Sony Picture Profile you should shoot your next project on. The result might shock you. 🤷🏽♂️
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 intro
00:28 Sony profile dilemma
2:33 in camera settings
3:29 Sony white paper
4:51 inside resolve
5:55 the showdown
11:00 1-hour webinar
11:23 the showdown continued
20:56 pros and cons
24:16 use cases
25:18 Final verdict
TEAM
Video: @theqazman
Edit/Graphics: @scott_the_dreamer
Sound Design/Mix: Aadil Dar
ABOUT ME
I'm Waqas Qazi, founder and senior colorist at Qazi & Co. I have worked with PRIME VIDEO, ADIDAS, TOYOTA, VIZIO, etc. My mission is to share industry secrets by making fun, easy-to-follow, practical videos on all things color grading.
My Work: waqasqazi.com/
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#scinetone #slog3 #davinciresolve - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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Let's get one thing right. This is a Mac vs. PC debate so there are no winners here.
But if you want to hear a professional colorist who earns his living by grading and teaching it then listen up.
FACTS 👇🏾
Slog 3 is the undisputed champion between the two if you're not shooting in low light.
When compared to Arri, Red, Panasonic, it's the WORST log profile when you're shooting in low light.
And if you wanna know the WHY behind my claims then watch the video.
Much love. ❤
I've yielded great results with both profiles. S-Cinetone I mainly use in low light. I swear it's almost too easy to get an awesome picture with it. Slog3 I usually use outside during the day. The shadow falloff and highlight rolloff is just unbeatable IMO.
You have a link to your work? Would like to see slog 3 footage with Cine tone how they look together in a cohesive film
Thank you Waqas for your smart analysis, it's very instructive and so well explained and presented
thanks for that, really helpful. appreciate the videos man.
Great video. More like with with log profiles etc
Thanks for this awesome comparison. For my little B-camera which is a Sony RX100VII I use HLG-2 as my standard profile. Seems to be quite decent even with being 8bit only. But probably, I should try out some less bended curve for even better results.
Thanx for comparison!
I shoot weddings. Recently switch to slog3. I can’t control lights 90% of the time. I use lights to help with exposure.But i got better results with log footage using phantom luts (maybe sounds like ad). I try to expose to 52-54ire on skin with monitoring lut on screen (not baked, baked looks super weird). When i expose on skin overall exposure looks good. Maybe i wrong, but it looks much better then before with cinetone.
I have no noise issues with slog3 on the sony zv-e1 when using the base ISOs and exposing correctly. It gives me the best noise performance out of all the profiles because I have more room to overexpose without clipping the highlights. After normalizing everything in post the image is fantastic. The only weak point really is the codec compression. I also feel that exposing just under the point of clipping is quite practical for run and gun situations. Just use the zebras and make sure you are not clipping and worry about fixing the exposure in post. Also the A7IV used here has a dual gain ISO circuit. Switching to the second circuit would have given much better results under the same lighting conditions.
Killer video as always!
awesome...u r the best♥
Great video but i want to see how to retain crashed highlights in s-cinetone. This is fenomenal usefull tip if it is possibile !!! Thanks Waqas for your videos! Very informative!
I was on the fence about this for a while, I definitely appreciate you breaking down the differences. I feel a lot better about choosing to keep things quick and easy and using S-cinetone for quick turnaround work.
@theqazman great video!
is shooting in S-log3 using the S-cinetone gamut a possibility to squeeze out more dynamic range but creating a Lut from LUTCalc?
Great Video. slog-3 here on A7S3...I know that sometimes S-cinetone would give me a better result (especially when trying to move fast in edit!) - but I am honestly loving the learning curve that comes with grading slog-3. Learning about film is a side thing for me (new passion), and I like that the picture profile challenges my technical abilities - but still offers great potential creatively. I like that I'm the weakest link, not my camera. Cheers
Thank you so much for this video !
I just bought a Sony A7RV and was debating between Cinetone and Slog3 …, now I know 😜💪🙏🙏🙏
Great explanation!
23:08 First of all: thanks man you probably the best TH-cam channel for Color grading 🙌🏼 BUT in this video I heavily have to disagree with one fundamental thing: Gamma is not creating noise!! So there is absolutely no way S-Log3 has more noise than S-Cinetone. Why you have more noise here is cause you didn’t exposed S-Log right. I really recommend everyone who is using S-Log 3 to watch detailed videos about how to expose it properly. Than you’ll have a super clean image. Also the Color correction is super easy. For Davinci users use Color Transformation Tool, for other programs simply use Color correction LUTs like Leeming LUT.
You have to ask yourself the question what is the better profile for your own use:
- you want more flexibility in Color grading = definitely use S-Log 3
- Color grading is not the priority for your project = make your life easier and use S-Cinetone
Hope it helps some of you ✌🏼 Feel free to share your thoughts about my advice!
But how can I expose right if I physically don't have enough light to do so? If you just raise the ISO, that's where more noise is created
Surprisingly, with all the buzz around this real-world faceoff, I haven't seen anyone discussing the HLG profile from Sony. It's a revelation that might shock many videographers. 🤷🏽♂ What are your thoughts?
Definitely worth investigating. Thanks for the suggestion.
I agree. I started off with an A7iii and randomly tried HLG because S-Log wasn't great in that camera and I was surprised how good it looked!
Each profile has its place! Good job on the comparison. I had to change the slog profile to get the colors and curve right on my a7s2 …. It doesn’t have cinetone but I wish it did.
I’ll be getting a74 soon I hope. So it was gr8 to see this video and show all this cause I’ll be using a similar style of talking head.
Thanx qaz! Another banger as per usual!
Thanks man, this is helpful. I'd love to see a workflow process from you for D-Log on the Ronin 4D.
👉An excellent comparison of the two most frequently used profiles. I like working in the SLOG 3 profile. More features despite more actions. Cinetone is better suited for small grading corrections and serves as a quick solution in basic color correction.
Hi Waqas, have you watched Past Lives? I really liked it, especially the scenes in New York. I'd appreciate it a lot if you can do tutorial on the look!
The noise issue on S-Log was from improper exposure. S-Log needs to be +2 and you were doing -1, that's from Sony and Gerald Undone did a video about why it's important.
no, in this case camera compression kill it. Slog much more picky to compression than any other more contrast curve, ideally must be uncompressed as RAW.
This
😂
@@scott_the_dreamer 😂😂😂
@@AABB-px8lc Wrong. Raw will allow for more color depth and shadow information but it will require more noise reduction. If the scene allows for it there is no advantage to under-exposing by -1 stops like Qazi has done here. Even over-exposing by 1 stop is enough to get much better noise performance on Slog3.
This isn't exclusive to Sony, every single gamma profile from every manufacture will display less noise by over-exposing and bringing down in post, but with proper cinema cameras this is mostly unnecessary. Especially with any Arri or Venice camera no DP is over-exposing by the 'Gerald recommended' +1.66 stops, hence Qazi's comment above. But for us plebs using small mirrorless cameras you will always get better results by using ETTR, provided you're not losing the highlight information you need.
S Cinetone is nice, I've used it for fast turnaround stuff. The dynamic range on S-Log3 is unmatched though. I shoot at +1.7 and never had a problem with noise. Phantom LUTS are amazing and Gamut's Gamut Boost LUT is the icing on the cake.
Thank you for the comparison. Am impressed with what S cinetone can do... please do a canon edition
super helpful! thanks :)
I think that making a personal setup of the Slog3 parameters in camera, can reduce the workflow in post. There's a lot of parameters you can manage in camera. And simply applying the Davinci YRGB Color Managed and marking the original footage as Sony Slog3, the starting point can be similar to the S-Cinetone, with a wider margin to operate.
The thing is that the configuration of the Picture Profile has a massive amount of controls that are very difficult to tune.
I agree, I've been using S-LOG 3 for a lot of my projects and undeniably dynamic range is the best from these prosumer cameras. I've witnessed the best and worst out of this profile and I agree that lowlight is its biggest weakness. If you compare it though with a prosumer cinema camera such as the BMPCC 4k/6k you get the similar problem which is lowlight issues. At the end of the day as colorist we still have the power to decide creatively how we can max out the material we have. I love how you provided the pros and cons of each one and how experience and time really matters in correcting LOG footages.
It's interesting to see what we can max out from these prosumer sony camera's. Seeing this gave me a little hope to still keep my Sony camera as my backup and hopefully keep up with my creative needs.
I like both, S-Cinetone and SLOG-3... each one has specific purpose. About NOISE in SLOG-3 you're exposing wrong, that why its noisy. Thanks for sharing! Kind regards.
how?
@@Originoutfittersshould expose to the right (over expose) to bring down exposure in post killing the noise.
Hello Qazi thankx for the information that You Provide on this channel...Can you please do one more S-cinetone VS Hlg thank you my friend keep it up...
Just tested it (with controlled lights) and the S-cine basically looks green when you try to white balance it for the most realistic look at 3900k (without the axis correction) when using 2700k lights, if you set the WB higher than 5000k and less than 2900k becomes normalized but's pretty weird behavior comparing to slog3 who keeps the colors beautiful throughout the WB range.
Very good video - how to save missexposed s-log3. Unfortunately A7IV have no CineEI for proper exposure.
An interesting perspective- we aren’t huge fans of the look of cinetone and how it replicates the colors we want to see. It also really is tough to use in harsh light and if you under expose the contrast is so baked in. Slog gives us more flexibility in a shot that’s under or slightly over exposed. We grade everything with a LUT and adjustments after in premiere pro. Usually we stick to the fx3 or fx6’s base ISO and never have noise issues. Maybe our workflow is good enough not have errors, even with students shooting with our cameras, but cinetone gave us far more issues. Also seemed to look very digital compared to slog 3.
I know exactly what you mean when you say s cinetone looks digital. Using a glimmer glass filter kinda helps to take off that digital edge, for me at least.
Hi Waqas..! First of all, thanks for your highly informative videos!
May I put a question here...? I don´t know if it is necessary to transform the XAVC Files before loading them to Resolve or not.
Is it just load and run or do I need a transcode prog first to get the proper results? Thanks
Load and run. I don't recommend transcoding them. Sony did a great job with compression to quality.
I agree with everything in this video 😆 Slog 3 was/is so great to learn correction/grading on. It pushes my skin tones yellow sometimes but I do a custom white balance for it indoors with my Godox 60W. I noticed I my grade style goes towards what S-Cinetone sorta does anyway. I generally might change exposure, contrast and saturation depending on what I’m doing with S-cinetone. My first time using Resolve I saw how S-Cinetone had me perfectly on the skin tone line without needing to adjust it. Sony really knocked it out the park with S-cinetone.
A video about how to use a color palettes to grade please 🙏🏾
real information and no fluff. the real qazman!
My man. 💪🏾
Amazing content! Have you ever done something similar to this looking at Canon Log versus other Canon picture profiles?
No but I'm open to it.
@@theqazmanpleaaaaase do it! 🙏
Hey, great video, for S-cinetone clips, what do you set your colour management settings on davinci? I edit on a mac, i use Davinci yRGB for colour science and Rec-709A for timeline and output colour space and in preferences I turned on use mac colour display profile for users, but when I import S-cinetone clips they look like they have slightly more contrast than the originals, I think it's a setting that I've not set properly since the recent update. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks
Great video. In Davinci, what should I configure when applying CST (or color management) for s-cinetone?
I was wondering the same
SAME HERE
Thx for video! Tell me please, is there reason to convert 8-bit rec 709 to davinci wide gamut color space and and color grade in it?
Thank you for this very informative video. Have you tried S log 3 with S Cinetone color profile? That is how I shoot everything I do. Very easy to grade and has great dynamic range. I would be really interested to know what you think. Thank you!
hey qazi, could make a video where you teach us how to color grade s.cinetone ?
Best comparison feat. Colour grading in one video on the planet.
SLOG-3 i use for much larger project where i want that extra bit of control of my image. But for fast turn arounds and even tutorials i make on another youtube channel - S-Cinetone. Ive already shaped, added, subtracted, colored light the way i want it as i shot it, all i have to do is apply my tutorial lut i made for myself because its always in the same place and bam, done, all i have to do is cut/edit and im done. My only issue with S-cinetone is the base ISO for it is so low, i always have to increase my ISO...but S-Cinetone taught me to never be afraid to go away from your Base ISO because....i actually get no noise after my final grade. Its very clean. To your point, S-cinetone is NOT R.709. The color space is slightly wider. Youll also notice the shadows are slightly lifted. You still have to "correct" the image in post but in resolve? Its like 1 node. Maybe 2. Thats it. I just love how fast you can work with S-Cinetone.
I also worked with Arri Log C3 footage and it’s just so much better than Slog 3. Arri‘s Log feels so much more flexible and organic to work with
Nooo wayyyy
@@RafalGendarz What?
Omg!!!! I don’t believe it!!!😮😮😮😮
That was an eye opener. Cheers man. Maybe you could have overexposed it to counter the noise. But still just shows me SLOG3 is so overrated. Care to check out HLG3 at some point?
What about when mixing footage with say a drone and a Sony A7Sii, would it maybe be easier to match if Sony A7iv filmed in slog3?
Hello! Please tell me, I work in DaVinci on a MacBook Air m1, footage on SanDisk ExtreamPro (S-Log3). The computer is clearly not enough power, it becomes more and more difficult to mount. Should I upgrade to McBook Pro M2 Max? Does this make sense? I live in travel, so there is no way to buy a desktop computer.
Just one question, how would I set up my In Vs Out CST for S-cinetone if im grading in davinci wide gamut?
Newbie here, I've been shooting videos in HLG3 on my A7III, should I switch to S-LOG3? I've heard HLG3 was better but now I'm not sure
What CST in and out were you using for s-cinetone? Were you transforming from rec709 to Davinci wide gamut? Thanks!
Same question here!
Thank you my man, I love shooting in s cinetone and i am a slog3 shooter for years now. But i find it so much harder to get a clean image, the yellow, green tint in skintones is so f annoying dont know what sony is doing. S cinetone is very forgiving profile with skintones. Honestly I am a "get it as right as you can in cam" guy. I love using a color chart, set my WB correct and just get everything streamlined for postpro. Would be interesting to see the difference with proRes Raw from an Atomos recorder. Thank you for the great video.
You said it. I'm with you. Also; prores raw diff will be hard to see after TH-cam's horrible compression.
The problem with S-cinetone is that it doesn't do well with uncontrolled artificial light in terms of color and white balance gets way off. During the day it works perfect with again having a strange reaction if you try to change white balance drastically, seems it doesn't do much, it's weird.
And in daylight conditions becomes very very close to slog3 with phantom luts without any grading (which is a plus).
honestly im not trying to become a colorist so S-cinetone is awesome for me to save a lot of unnecessary work that i feel hinders my creative work flow and allows me to do more of what i love and less color grading
Relatable
How would s cinetone compare to vlog based on these criterias you've listed or even vlog vs slog maybe?
I see your watch. You must be a watch fan as that is quite new! Congrats.
Haha. Thank you. Big watch guy. What do you have?
I always want the most data and flexibility in my capture - S-Log3 for the win - I do not find the extra step to convert to non-Log colorspace is not really a big deal and worth the extra dynamic range!
love it !
I shoot mostly nightlife, DJs, Clubs, Promo videos so lowlight and I couldn't agree more... I shoot with FX3 and did both S-log3 (Cine EI 800/12800 ISO based) and S-cinetone to test it out, Overexposed it +1.7-2, did the proper color grading but honestly I get good footage with S-cinetone, just as S-log3 but less work. Also I do all my editing with premiere pro so maybe I could do better with DaVinci I just haven't made the transitioning to DaVinci yet. I like S-log3 daytime for commercials and modeling videos when I wanna tweak the colors, but for low light I just go with S-cinetone and a good prime lens (F1.4 or F1.8 aperture)
Probably a dumb question but I’m a rookie, which gamma should I input in the CST node for converting the cinetone? searching on the list I only find SLOG, thanks for the help!
it doesn't exist because you don't have to convert anything. it's a rec 709 with a different gamut.
for slog3 , often over exposed , 1.3-1.7, then bring it down in post. I have never used S-Cinetone. How do we expose that?
The Editing for some of the last videos are sick
Ik bro. My team is insane!
Using s cinetone just obliges you to expose property your shots. It won't allow you to recover as much blown out details as if shot with slog 3. Just keep that in mind.
My A7S III has dual native ISO which is 12800 top and only in S-log. I mean, 12800 is super clean and I really need that much ISO. Overexpose +1.7 produces almost zero noise. Going up to 25 000 ISO works as well and, yeah, you need noise reduction for superb quality. But still using s-log to make your camera see better than your eyes... For sure, I will accept so much post-prod stuff and all the cons of s-log. There is no choice for me.
I use them both.
Can you do a comparison between S scinetone and no picture profile?
A Question Both Were shot at 8 Bit or 10 Bit??
great video! but how to set DaVinci for Cinetone?
wondered the same thing...
the color noise in slog3 is terrible. big blocks of random colors everywhere.
Slog weaking part is in camera compression, you lose too many info with typical hybrid camera 100-200mb 4k like a7IV, that is reason it have noise in dark area in this example. Any EOTF close to rec709 is better, even CINEGAMMA.
i have a problem with skin tones in s-cinetone and i dont know why! the skin tones are kinda yellowish! in 95% of time and i dont know why!!
does anyone else has this problem?
i can fix that with hue vs hue, but is there any solution to fix that in camera?
I‘ll go with A - SLOG3 and B - S-Cinetone
What color space transform are you supposed to use for S-Cinetone in Davinci?
I’ve used S-Cinetone a bit and S-Log3 more. I was having trouble with highlights in S-Cinetone, they feel blown out even if technically they aren’t but, I think it’s a color space transform issue and not necessarily the S-Cinetone. I’ve used S-Log 3 with a CST workflow the most because the CST gets me a solid base to move forward from and the highlights don’t feel blow out unless I want them to.
Another note on S-Log3, I know a lot of people use Sgamut3.Cine and according to Sony themselves Sgamut3 provides a larger color space than .Cine.
In my experience Sgamut3 doesn’t crush the blacks as much, provides a little better color in my opinion and the highlights are the same if not better than Sgamut3.Cine.
I think the main thing with S-Log3 is to always use a color checker card in the particular light you’re filming in to get the best color reproduction. The one thing I’m not the biggest fan of with Slog3 is it make reds feel nuclear compared to other colors and with that it makes oranges more red than orange so ya.
I work with Slog3 because it’s more familiar and flexible but, I agree S-Cinetone is magical, I just think I need to figure out what CST needs to be used on it and I’ll start using it more, don’t know what to classify the input footage as, rec709, dcip3, sRGB, etc.
My CST always uses Davinci Wide Gamut/Intermediate for the timeline space.
You don’t really need a CST for S-Cinetone since it’s meant to be a (better) alternative to REC709. So shooting, (maybe live-streaming), editing, delivering all in S-Cinetone. Some grading can be done but it’s not a must like for Slog3.
@@theowlfromduolingo7982 wouldn’t it be necessary though? If S-Cinetone has more latitude than rec709 then it would be restricted in rec709 from the get go right? Or is Scinetone captured with more latitude and the camera is converting it to rec709 before dropping onto the pc?
@@XVIIsionsProductions I don't think there's a need for a CST. You can see in the curves that are shown in the video that the clipping point for S-Cinetone is much higher than Rec.709 which means that, depending on how you shot, the highlights may appear to be blown out, but they are recoverable (to the Rec.709 luminance). Harv Audio/Video has a great video about exposing S-Cinetone, I'd recommend checking it out
@@PhillipRPeck thank you I appreciate it
So what you mean is S-log3/S-Gamut3.Cine with H.264 10bit 422 240Mbps to 600Mbps or H.265 10bit 420 is not enough data rate, not good compressed video format for serious grading, right? That's why you've mentioned FX9, Shooting RAW, probably means ProRes RAW or HQ.
thxxx
wont you get cleaner results with slog 3 if you over expose and then bring it down in post.? Of course scinetone has cleaner shadow cause of the noise reduction but slog will be better in dynamic scenes
What if you created a camera profile combining S-Log3 gamma with S-Cinetone gamut? Maybe you'd get more accurate colors with the increased dynamic range.
It will break easily. S-Cinetone is still in rec709 color space so the Slog3 advantage of having high dynamic range will be hampered by using a limited gamut. While Slog3 is not as accurate as S-Cinetone, it is still accurate. Qazi is just exaggerating regarding accuracy. So many legit DOPs already tested this with color charts and reading the scopes, and it is indeed accurate, just not as accurate as Cinetone because when they created Cinetone, they based it on Venice but it is still rec709 so you will be severely limited if you used it in tandem with Slog3
Very informative video! Thanks for the tests!
My two cents:
Important to note that this test relates to the A7IV. A7SIII has a different sensor and lower base ISO, so results may vary...
Any log footage that is under exposed is bound to have more noise than rec.709 profiles of the same camera, especially when under exposing.
In cases where you have controlled lighting there is not much risk of loosing highlight detail, so I would think of exposing more to the right. I bet even Arri has lots of noise when under exposing.
For me the dynamic range advantage and flexibility of S-Log3 is my number 1 reason for choosing it
I usualy shoot with S-Cinetone... i changed for no reason to S-Log3 in my last project... and i will go back to S-C now...
It looks like he does a CST for S Cine tone. Maybe to Davinci Intermediate?
Can you create a color grading tutorial that replicates the style of Japanese movies like 《Little Forest》 please?
Man, you could have made this video earlier, I'm struggling with S-Log all the time :)
Great video, in many situations it will save time and improve the quality, because instead of 15 minutes I sometimes spend 30-40, and the effect will never be like yours.
Let's make it cear. It was S-log with no color profile (rec709 color space?) VS rec709 gamma with S-cinetone?
Great video.... Thank you! I've been waiting for this for so long and I didn't knew it haha. I cover a lots of events like dinners and brand debut for products and have been very cumbersome grade them on SL3. Green/blue always complicate to reproduce quite real, always an extra twick. So I started tu use SC and was for me faster and easier to get more accurate results (I know I have to practice a lot to get that result in any color profile, yet I'm just been honest to myself and my workflow where I have only 2h to edit a final banger video event of 40-60s) To sum up, I am now working with a friend who is a premier guy so I usually cook some nuts to give him a base or the total look and SC it iOS more versatile.
So my experience with SC it quite good and I am using it more and more often. Nevertheless my fear is to loose practice and criteria with s-log3 on when I have to use it or get faster result when client/project demand that profile. I also have the doubt how much worth record in SL with a H264/H265 codec which is very compress already (FX3 / 30 and A74 + users)... But don't kill me guys I probably break the ice on this topic no much people talk about and just follow the benchmark.
Thank you Qazy, this was a needed video :)
People fly blind. They watch a benchmark video and decide to name their next born after the bruh or sis who made the video. 😂😂😂
Reading these comments are my fav part. If all these people woke up one day from their spell we'll have a real competition. 😂
On freaking point... Totally... hahaha@@theqazman
Why underexpose S log3 by 1 stop when you should be overexposing by 2 stops. You were basically underexposed by 3 stops which is why you had noise when you brought it back up. No?
the noise comparison is not correct, the sony a74 in the s-cinetone profile has the second native iso at 500, the slog3 should be exposed to iso 3200 to be fair, the rest of the information is very useful, thank you!
Shot A IS SLOG 3
slog3 just for video creators with experience, and the results are much better than SCinetone.
Nice comparison, never liked slog3 for these reasons too, it would be nice to see a comparison between s-cinetone and HLG3 which has always been my preferred profile for Sony cameras
Can you do color grade brake down on The Creator
Choose the right profile for the job.
3:18 Little correction, actually the first base iso for S-Cinetone on the A7IV is 125 and not 150
I realized when I watched it. Misspoke.
Love the video @theqazman . And you right 100%. I use s cine. for events and quick shooting. But i shoot real estate a lot. And the dynamic range is the key. So i use S Log and i try s cine but the difference between high. and shadows sometime u lost a data. And the noise in S log u have to learn how to properly expose sometime 0 noise sometimes a lot. But there is davinci to help out. THX for video i like to see more for sony S log grade.
Me too. In real estate, you just need every last drop of dynamic range you can get. By the time you set up a few node trees, you can compensate for the speed difference.
sir video footage free download please website sharing
when i watched this video on my phone, i could easily tell the B is cinetone, but viewing on my desktop with benQ monitor it was hard to tell which is cinetone
A - SLOG3 and B - S-Cinetone
it's pretty funny how everybody preferes cinetone on lowlights when cinetone preferes a much lower iso then say itu709(800) or Slog-3
S Cinetone is my guess
b is slog3?