Ballistics Gel Test: Are 6.5mm cartridges sufficient for big game?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ต.ค. 2021
- I have hunted many animals with the 6.5 Creedmoor and 6.5 PRC. In this video, I dive into whether or not they are suitable cartridges for hunting game larger than deer.
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I know it's a completely anecdotal, but I shot a fairly small/medium sized deer at about 15 yards with a 12 gauge slug. He ran about 50-70 yards and then collapsed. When my dad and I were field dressing him (my first deer at 12), he did not have a heart and most of his lungs were blown up. It's pretty amazing what an animal can do on addrenaline alone.
That's one of the most impressive stories I've heard in a while!
Probably didn’t have an exit wound though
@@JTTTTT850 I don't think it did. I think the rib on the other side was cracked, but no exit.
7mm mag. May have only penetrated 1/4" more, but on game it thumps harder than all the other cartriges mentioned by a big margin. I have a .300 rcm which is the parent case to the 6.5 prc and it is a nice cartridge for all game in the lower 48.
DRT requires a hit/distruption in the central nervous system. If both lungs and heart is penetrated all that is keeping the animal alive is the oxygen in the muscles and brain. After that its dead. But It can run far...
Or mechanical damage, shoot the shoulders and it cant move the legs etc etc.
Blue Wildebeest are some of the toughest African game, that's why we call them the poor man's buffalo. We shot one on a hunt in September with a 30.06, 180gr, perfect shot placement, and it still ran for close to a mile- so you might not have had much different results with a bigger caliber. Just got a 6.5 Creedmoor myself, and very keen to start testing it in the bush. Thanks for the great video!
Deer>
Give us some feedback on the 6.5 creed on the Africa game. Bullet type and size, shoulder shot vs tradional behind the shoulder, animal size.
@@Savoy6thisisbulldog Sure, my Creedmoor has been in the field with me a bunch of times now, and it's done very well in the thick bush. I started with the Hornady ELD-X 143gr, which I decided was better for longer distances on the plains. But I moved over to a heavier bullet for the bush, where your average shooting distance is 80 yards. Currently I'm using Sellier & Bellot 156gr, and it's done tremendously well. I've always preferred shooting behind the shoulder, it's a lot less damage and meat loss. The Creedmoor does quite a bit of damage at such a short distance, and there's a decent amount of fragmentation, but all the shots I've taken have gone through the animal. The game I've taken down have been mostly smaller game: warthog, impala and blesbuck, blesbuck being the biggest (70kg, or 150 pounds roughly). Headshots and spine shots have worked particularly well. I do have an acquaintance who took a shoulder shot on a Blue Wildebeest with a Creedmoor, the bullet didn't penetrate through the bone, and the shot wasn't fatal. So on bigger game your shot placement is much more important. Hope this helps.
From what I've understood, sectional density and bullet construction are the biggest factors in penetration. And sometimes optimal shot placement is based on what bullet you are using. You don't necessarily want to take a shoulder shot with a rapid expansion bullet on an animal with a heavy bone structure. That would be a behind the shoulder for a double lung hit.
I know that in Sweden the 6,5 x 55 SE or 6,5 Swedish has been used for Moose hunting for over a hundred years so I think good shot placement is truly the deciding factor. Flinching with a 300 win mag would probably, in most situations, be worse than a good 6,5 shot, the exception being obviously elephants and big dangerous African game. That’s my two cents
I totally agree! 6.5 Swede and the 6.5-264 Norma are fantastic hunting cartridges. High BC projectiles retain energy, drift less, High SD for deep penetration (with the correct bullet selection) lighter recoiling, and accurate. I prefer all copper projectiles as I know there is little chance of having a bullet failure even if presented a very close shot and it will retain damn near all its weight, I know the copper ballistic tip/hollow point is going to do its job. Cup and core, soft points, and even some modern A frame and bonded bullets do fail or lose a significant amount of bullet weight leading to poor outcomes.
It's funny how the good old .308 performs more than decent in any scenario.
And the 308 ammo is widely available, what is not to like?
The 308 is like the 7x57 7x64 8x57is 30.06 9,3x62 they are all old but Gold they are all Medium Caliber not to small not to Heavy they Work as they Should they are Workhorses that doesnt fail you / the Gunmakers only give you New Calibers to sell you New Guns but the New Ones normally doesnt do a better Job than the good Old Ones
Why are the 6.5x55 7x57 / 7x64/ 8x57 / 8x64 / 9.3x62 for the Metric or 270 Win 308 / 30.06 for the American Calibers around since 100 years and more cause they Do the Job and they Do it excellent on all Game on the Planet and with modern Bullets and Powders they Do it better than ever before
The 6.5 Creedmoor with high Bc bullet bla bla bla you can put High Bc bullets on every of the good old ones too not exklusiv on the New Cartridges... i allways laugh about such arguments for New Cartridges... 😀
More proof that the eldx bullets not the best for deep penetration .
@@rodneyhickman825 yes when you want Penetration go with Nosler Partition or Accubond / Barnes TTSX / Swift AFrame / Peregrine VLR4 (excellent Bullets as Alternative for Barnes TTSX they are from South Africa) and so on
@@rodneyhickman825 yeah ELDX is a soft bullet made to expand properly at low velocites (long range).
I would think that they are TO soft for large animals and expand to fast at close ranges, if i shoot a moose i want both lungs penetrated and preferably passthrough, if not they will be able to run for miles before dying, instead of couple yards.
That is normal for a bluewildebeest. They are called the poor man's buffalo. They said they are born ill but with every shot they receive they get stronger. From SA
Their will to live sounds amazing. Over here in BC mountain goat has the same reputation, if you don't hit them right the first time especially you can have a rodeo on your hands.
Goed om ander SAners hier te sien!
Theuns' description is spot on. They really don't like dying.
From shooting deer with 12ga, 20ga, .270, .308, 6.5 creedmoor, and numerous. .50cal muzzle loader load variations from .44mag to .45cal sabot loads, shot placement has been key with everything!
I reload for about 30 different calibers and try to develop a "do everything" load staying within the capability of the cartridge. Most of my loads end up with Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX/TTSX. And blue wildebeest are tough so don't be too hard on yourself. That same shot with a TSX and you would have found that bull in 200 yards. Exit wounds become critical on these tougher antelope in my experience.
This was a great series of tests. Super impressive and very helpful. I think your conclusion is dead on; within the normal deer calibers, bullet choice and shot placement are more important than than caliber choice.
That’s super interesting. I definitely wasn’t expecting such similar results out of such different bullets.
I've taken a lot of game over the years, ever since I was of legal age to hunt(14 for Archery, 16 for firearm in my state back then). I've always sort of laughed off the idea of people trying to buy a rifle/cartridge in the effort of ensuring they "drop em in their tracks". Short of a perfectly placed head shot or a spine shot, you can't really guarantee that no matter the cartridge in my experience. These animals are incredibly resilient and they're all different. I've talked to a lot of people on that quest for either a new rifle or new bullet that will "drop em", in my experience it's a never ending quest.
I had to hunt with a shotgun for many years as well, both 20ga and 12ga & with both rifled slugs and sabots, prior to my county becoming a rifle-eligible county. When you see a whitetail take a 1oz slug to the heart & lungs at 20 yards and still run 100 yards, you sort of get a new perspective when they can take all that energy and keep running on adrenaline, and when you field dress them you see the utter devastation and wonder how the hell it's possible. And then on the flip side of that, I've seen deer hit at 200 yards with a 95 grain .243 bullet drop instantly, with far less internal damage caused compared to a much heavier shotgun slug. That bullet will be moving a hell of a lot faster than the 1oz slug, even with the range difference, but in terms of energy on target, the slug wins hands down when you compare those two specific cases.
These days, I whitetail hunt pretty exclusively with .308, due to the land I hunt and the ranges I can shoot at. My rifles tend to prefer hunting bullets in the 165 grain weight range over 150 grainers. I've also moved away from lead bullets and use Barnes TTSX pretty exclusively these days. The accuracy, weight retention and penetration has all been superb.
Coming from a shotgun only country, smoothbores with slugs not accurate enough, yet buckshot was quite efective on deer, Ups, you had to sneak within 35 Yds, That was long before screw in chokes, I extended my range when I got a 30-30 barrel and had it turned to fit my 12 Ga barrel
👍👍👍
Hornady SST 150 in my .308 blows up quick and jellies internals.👍
That kid is cool, steady as a rock.
I like your mature ethical approach and fact based assessments
Over the years of doing a lot of depredation work on hogs and deer, I've found that frontal mass width is just as important (if not more) as sectional density. Yes most of the 6.5s have great BC and SD, but I've yet to see any of them produce the amount of one stop shots as the 30 calibers such as 308s, 30-06, 300 win, etc. Don't get me wrong.... I love the 6.5 Creedmoor (and even the 6.5 Grendel) on the bench. I even prefer the 6.5 Creedmoor for long range hunting (500+ yards) over the 300 win mag (on deer size game only) simply because it's much easier on the shoulder (unless you run a brake). However, as a general rule I just prefer the larger bleed hole of the larger diameter bullets in the field on medium to large game.
Chad Mcswain I agree. When you change distances and game size, some serious consideration needs to go to bullet design that can reach the internals, then hemorrhage them with a wound channel that can do this quickly and ethically. My experience is the same, although the smaller calibers work, the 30 calibers to this best.
I've been running copper for 30 yrs. They go in the caliber your using and exit twice that diameter with tremendous hydro shock in between. I have two holes pouring blood and I've not lost an animal. If you are doing depredation use a soft point, and even the 6.5 will slam them to the ground as they blow up, dropping all the energy immediately. They are cheaper as well. Good luck and as hansetx says "keep making those bacon pancakes"!
That’s why 7mm rem mag is perfect
Lonestarboars talks on this. He mentions next to .308 for hog, the 7.62x39 does the job inside his atypical stalking ranges. Better than 6.5grendel and 6.8spc. For pistol and PCC’s I was surprised to hear .45 at closer ranges for dispatching hog. .45 obviously has less penetration than 9mm but greater surface area
I like 20mm for light work
It made my week seeing your boy make that hit! Super exiting!
I love the 6.5 prc. It does it all and with minimal recoil. Deer, hogs, elk, black bear, moose, and more! Ive seen too many vids of the prc absolutely light it up to think its too small to do the job. Compound that with its flat trajectory, its a winner! It penetrated the most on your test as-well! Total package imo.
I hunt elk with 6.5 prc and I've shot many over 400 yards. It requires a follow up shot. Other than that, it's a great flat shooting round.
@@iblongshia everyone has their opinions. Personally, I disagree. But, nothing can be too dead. Best of luck to you!
@@iblongshia If your shot placement's on target and you needed a follow up shot, you're using the wrong bullet for the distance.
@@TechieTard I switched to 6.5 prc for fun, just because I wanted to but I found out that shots past 400 yards (even with good shot placement) doesn't have enough knock down power. I've since gone back to my 300wm or 300 ultramag for further shot's.
The PRC is a great round imo but the ELD-X is a poorly designed bullet for big game. I would have zero issues elk or moose hunting if I was running 140 grain Partitions, Accubonds, or TTSXs.
Praying for your channel to get bigger, this is some seriously good well articulated content!
So long as some lacking-integrity punks from Sportsman's Warehouse stop plagiarizing his work.
One of the most helpful things I found is if my estimated distance has my bullet hitting at over 2500 ft./s I use a monolithic bullet but if it’s below 2500 ft./s i use a lead core bullet.
Great video. Love seeing you family and son taking shots and harvesting the game. As fas as what you said about some animals will just run farther, I have had a small white tail buck run over a 100 yard after shooting it at 80 yards with a 7mm mag. Also had a 7’2” black bear only go 40 yds after being shot with a 6.5cr. You never know how you animal will react
I love ballistic gel test. They are a no bs assessment on which one is superior regarding bullet construction. Thank you for the information you are sharing!!!
Great test!
With your Mossberg Patriot, please do a test with a $10 limbsaver barrel tuner with various 308 ammo?
I enjoy your videos and your ability to have a valid opinion without being a know-it-all. I feel that the 6.5CM is a great cartridge for deer sized game with very little recoil. That being said; my favorite saying about hunting rifles go like this:
"The caliber of the Person pulling the trigger is way more important than the the caliber of the bore."
Meaning, once you decide on a cartridge size, you still need to choose the correct bullet, take the right shot, and be somewhat skilled about anatomy.
Hey Jim, I'm a relatively new viewer (1 week) and first time commenter. I like your style a lot and am now subscribed. I've done most of my rifle hunting with a 270 and barnes bullets. I completely agree with your take on bullet construction and penetration. I will add that the barnes bullet doesn't either damage capes as a benefit compared to a fragmenting bullet. I have killed 30+ deer, pronghorn and elk now with that combo and never once have I wished that I used a fragmenting bullet so that more energy was expended in the animal. I do understand the drive to use the most accurate bullet possible so that you can stretch your range. I do think that for hunting applications, it's important to have boundaries and can appreciate that you will go deer and down with your eld-x in the 6.5. I think that's sensible. I don't think the vast majority of your long range viewers will share that sensible boundary. The more you can do to promote that logic, the better for hunters and the quarry we chase. Thank you for the great work! Also, despite being a 270 fan, I think it's tragic the 6.8 Western didn't win in cartridge wars. I will be trying that chambering in 2022 and don't see how it will be anything other than improvement. I also share your affinity for the 7 SAUM on paper. These chamberings along with a future 7mm PRC are likely the future. Sorry for the long post, I'll keep my future remarks more concise.
Nice video! Thanks for all your hard work putting together this information.
Love the experimentation and process... It does reveal some interesting points (pun intended) with regards to projectile profile + construction and speed vs. penetration in the cartridges you selected. I'd like the additional test added to this (same process) for example/comparison using .375 H&H... like a plain jane, yet typically good/accurate/reliable loading in Federal factory load of 300gr. power-shock soft-points. As we know... perhaps one of the most versatile allrounders for safari and heavier game without the requirements/need for more complex bullet constructions. I use the .375 H&H for just about everything here in Alaska. Have always been a fan of the 300gr. Nosler Partition. Sometimes here the hunter is doing the hunting... sometimes the hunter is stalked and the hunted. Also be of comparison interest to use a stiff load in a muzzleloader or 12 ga 3" Black Magic Bren. slug in same experiment.
The ELD-X is one of those rapidly expanding bullets that dump every foot pound in the game. This is good, but often doesn't leave a blood trail if the target doesn't drop. I am a fair chase WT guide in SC and see over 50 deer a year shot by hunters. I firmly believe that penetration coupled with proper shot placement is paramount. Look for a bullet that exits yet still expands. I have good results with the Barnes TSX line.
I switched to copper because the ELD-X was to harsh on the meat... Barnes TTSX and Sako's Powerhead Blade is awesome
Love your videos! Always super informative.
New to the channel and glad to be here - sincere presentation, with field-real frames of reference.
Was expecting more conclusive results. Speaks volumes to bullet selection. If you ever did a re-test of this I’d love to see the same caliber and bullet with varying grain weights to test the theory of high sectional density= better penetration. As always, love the videos.
I’ve saw a few elk flattened with a .308 Barnes copper bullet. Those copper bullets are great for big animals
Interesting results. Very informative. Did not expect. Great stuff
Crazy. I was shopping for a rifle the other day and it was my first time seeing 6.5 Creedmoor. I'd never heard of it so I've been asking around and then I see one of your shorts which leads me to this video and bam, I have some info, you have another subscriber!
When you gutted and skinned the wildebeest did you examine the penetration?? That would’ve been helpful to know in that scenario since he ran 3/4 mile
@@sha6mm nonetheless he went straight to doing penetration tests on gel without examining the penetration on the actual animal that caused his suspicion
7mm is too fast to run cup and core bullets, they just end up fragmenting or overexpanding. Faster dosent mean more penetration if the bullet construction dosen't hold up. Bonded or copper bullets will resist overexpansion and give much better penetration.
@@sha6mm ELD-Xs are rebranded target bullets. They’re crap.
@@borkwoof696 Those ELD-Xs blow up (on me) like a varmint bullet. I flat out won't use them on anything bigger than a coyote and never on anything I intend to eat. Great paper punchers though. Game animals are not made of gel and actual recovered bullets tell the real story. It's to bad those ELD-X bullets aren't bonded.
@@doghousedon1 yup, I suppose they’re ok at longer distances and lower velocities but a) should you/do you really hunt at those distances and b) why not use a bullet that also works for the more likely close range shots.
I would live to see that same test with 7mag vs 7mm-08
I'm real surprised at the results of all of these different calibers. I would never have suspected this. Thanks for running these tests. God bless you and your family.
Understanding sectional density will help a ton with this exact issue. 2 totally different cartridges can have similar penetration if their sectional densities are the same. Also, the same cartridge can have poor penetration on the light weight grain vs great penetration on the heavy weight grain. Always good to understand this when choosing a weight grain.
Seems the 7mm is dumping a whole lot more energy in the same wound channel without wasting it in over-penetration.
Agreed
I also agree. Also, what’s your terminal energy with 6.5’s at 400 versus 7mm mag. In case of lesser shot placement always better to error on side of energy. In addition, lower terminal energy may lead to greater chance of bullet deflection from shoulder or rib. Might look like good shot at entrance but, where is it bouncing around in chest cavity?
????? Over penetration? That's exactly what you want when you hunt. Animals haven't read about energy transfer.
Over penetration?! A good bullet dumps energy and penetrates clear through creating a wound channel and a good blood trail. Think Partitions and the tougher A-Frames.
have you never shot an animal? there is no such thing as "over penetration", two holes are better than one
I would’ve been curious to see how a 30-06 would’ve stacked up against these cartridges
It's all shot placement. Plenty of professional cull hunters in Africa hunt just about every plains game with 5.56.
@@MrMalicious5
Correct but culling is all about headshots. If you shoot body shots on a cull you will lose money as you lose carcass weight. I wont shoot an Eland on the shoulder with a 223Rem but it would work for headshots.
I have culled a bunch of animals with my 22-250 because it's flat shooting, low recoiling and economic to shoot. I won't hunt bigger animals with a 22-250 etc. as I have seen them fail on body shots too many times.
Shot placement is always key but the bullet has to be tough and travel fast enough to penetrate deep enough to kill.
On a ballistics aspect a 6.5 PRC carries more energy from the 160-200yd mark and onward, under that distance the 30-06 has more energy. Has more to do with the BC than anything and having a larger bullet in the 30-06 would pose an argument that the actual energy isn’t the best medium to measure lethality. Would definitely be a good comparison video
@@BartTheSpartan is that still true with a 30-06 nosler or barnes vortex bullet with a ballistic tip? I have 180gr balistic tip nosler rounds that shoot 2750fps, or a 168gr that shoots 2900fps?
@@MrMalicious5 That is so crazy! I would never have thought that
I just got a Weatherby Vanguard 6.5 creedmore love that rifle. It’s not loud , the Recoil very manageable that makes me a better shooter. I put a Vortex Viper HS 4-16x44 because of all your testing. Thank you for your work great channel. Most of all I trust your research that it’s not for the manufactures and sponsorship it for us. 👍👏
I love the approach to this. Great job. I have a 6.5 creedmore and just got back from Wyoming antelope hunting. For those guys, with the high wind and longer shots i had to take, it was perfect. I don't know if i would use it in an elk but on white tail and smaller, it is just right.
Dude I like your video's!
Like many have said, the Wildebeest is a real tough animal in SA and shot placement is the most important thing on them. If you shoot too far back or too low....... you going to walk allot!
The ELD-x is a great bullet and I used them for a long time an all game from Springbok, Wildebeest and Eland.
I must add, I shoot a 30-06 and use 200g bullets which help, but have shot a big Eland with a 6.5 x 55 using 142gr ELD-x, so it can be done.
I hope you enjoyed your hunt in SA. It was great seeing your boy making good shots. For Bluewildebeest you should use a premium bonded bullet when shooting shoulder shots. I like 165gr Nosler Accubonds from my 30-06 when I hunt them.
We have a saying in South Africa:"A Blue Wildebees is an animal that looks like it's dying but it becomes more alive the more times you shoot it." They are tough buggers that need a good bullet in a solid cartridge.
In Germany we have the Saying what is better then a Bulletdiameter it is a bigger Bulletdiameter 😜 30.06 8x57is 8x68s 9.3x62 9.3x64 with Nosler Accubond or Partition or Barnes TTSX / Swift AFrame or when you want something from SA go with Peregrine VLR4 that are good Choices for Bigger Game
@@lenzadlberger
😂😂 That's the truth!
“Poor mans Buffalo”
It becomes more alive the more times you shoot it. 🍺🤣👍
Super informative! Not only do we get ballistics gel tests, we also get real world performance!
Such a great channel- geez man, thank you!
6.5(264)has always had exceptional penetrating abilities from the 6.5x55 to the 6.5-06,264 winchester and rem mags the 6.5-06 ironically sets between 25-06 and 270 but will smoke both.
When woods hunting I have my 45-70 or 30-30, medium range I use my 7mm-08 and my long range hunting is done with my 300 Weatherby Magnum. I have no intention of purchasing other rifles because it's the newest fad. No matter what calibers you choose to hunt with, match your bullet type with the proper velocities you plan to load. Matching proper caliber, with proper bullets and velocities for the yardage is a must.
Very cool test! Interesting outcome thanks for doing the work. I'm currently in the market for a new rifle for an Idaho elk and mule deer hunt. I'm stuck between the 7mm rem mag and the 6.5 prc.
That's a great demonstration. I use Barnes TTSX in my 250 Savage for less than 400 lbs. I have some Winchester Deer Season XP Copper in 308 that I may try on black bear this year.
Great review. Curious to see the new 6.8 western performance.
Great vid, the solution for you is a standard bonded bullet! I’d use a accubond or something similar. The 160gr in the 7mm rem mag is amazing on Sambar deer here in aus which get huge. When you’re taking hard quartering shots that penetration is really needed. It usually retains 60-75% weight even after going a long way through a big animal which is tough on projectiles
Agree 100%. That is why they reccomend accubond bullets for big game like elk
I love your channel I swear you make some of your videos just for me
Excellent video and easy to watch! Good shout out to the TTSX. I run the 200gr with about 67g of RL22 in my .300 win and they’re an awesome bullet in my opinion. Great weight retention and amazing penetration.
You have an excellent channel. Bullet design and target distance play a role in ballistic performance. If you were to look at the performance of the loads you tested at the distances you are likely to take game, you might see bigger differences in performance. I am truly curious to see what the 6.5 Creedmoor versus a 7mm Rem Mag looks like at 200-300 yards. Again, your channel content is fantastic, keep the comparisons and honest reviews coming!
It’s true that the vast majority of gel tests we see are at short range. That leaves a big knowledge gap as to what really happens at longer hunting ranges. Nearly all modern hunting bullets look good at short range. But what really happens passed 200 meters?
@@simondenis9511 just load down the powder charge to lower the velocity. There has been tests done like this on TH-cam. Results are less dramatic wound channels.
@@wcndguy5302 Just downloading the velocity might hide other factors. At 200 yards vs 15 yards the angle of incidence would differ and that would have an impact on bullet stability and the likelyhood of tumbling. The spin imparted on the bullet also differs, the bullet leaving the barrel at a higher velocity would have greater spin than the bullet leaving at a lower velocity.
@@gavinreid1649 I think those factors probably wouldn’t matter much at all. Major driving force is velocity.
@@wcndguy5302 I disagree, both the angle of incidence and the rate of spin will affect the likelyhood of the bullet tumbling.
Jim, I'm no ballistics expert, but could the reason for similar depth of penetration be due to the expansion of the projectile from hitting the one inch board? Does the board cause similar expansion of all projectiles? Would shooting only the ballistics gel be a better test for depth of penetration?
I’m curious about this too. The pictures of the first bullets looked correctly expanded. I’m sure he did it this way so he didn’t need like 10 blocks to catch bullets. Interesting test nonetheless.
Great video! I’d love to see the penetration differences in those same calibers with the Barnes triple shock bullets - ttsx or whatever. Thank you!
Totally fascinating... wow!! Great test!
Though I have no way to quantity the energy expended watching the gel block there was definitely a difference in how far it jumped... and the energy it used to move.
Perhaps containing the gel to remove this variable if you are just testing for penetration?
Nice visual btw
Is penetration the issue or is it the amount of energy that bullet is able to deliver into the target. The amount force that a round can effectively deliver into a target will determine how fast an animal drops much more then how much it can penetrate and is much more important factor to consider for ethical hunting, in my opinion
Good point, notice how the pallet was more disturbed with the 308 and 7mm? Could've been shot placement, but I feel like it had more to do with energy
Hence why (this is to support your argument) that airsoft fields use joules to limit guns by velocity and projectile weight.
It's both... Ideally you want energy transfer to destroy vital organs plus penetration to get through the front shoulder and produce a good blood trail via exit wound. Barnes TTSX and Hornady GMX accomplish this and are ideal for Big Moose and Bull Elk. For little deer, expansion bullets like SST or Interlock or Nosler BT work fine. I would not use expansion bullets on Big moose and elk for fear of not adequately penetrating the shoulder. The middle ground are the bonded bullets like Accubond and Interbond. They Expand reliably and penetrate adequately.
@Paul Energy numbers are nothing more than a simple quantification of the energy potential of the projectile, with more energy there is more potential to cause tissue damage depending on what the projectile does within the animal. Frangible bullets that fracture in the lung cavity are very lethal, but if they can't get past a large bone to deliver this effect to the vitals it's a fail. I agree that frangible target bullets are not wise choices for hunting. However light game like whitetail deer that do not have massive shoulder bones in front of vitals can definitely be taken reliably with rapid expansion style hunting bullets such as SST, Nosler BT, and the like (but staying within published max and min velocity limits)... provided you can place the round in the vital zone. I wouldn't use these on big moose and elk... no way! For the big bruins you want something that will go right through both shoulders and leave a good enough mess in between... My favorite is Barnes TTSX (staying above published min. velocity limits). On little deer, the Barnes TTSX passes through with plenty of retained weight and energy but they deliver sufficient enough damage anyways because they expand so reliably... You will get runners on some lung shots but they will leave blood trail so Barnes is versatile for pretty much anything large or small. The reason for going with something like SST on deer is that they are inexpensive and very accurate so you can shoot lots at the range with your SST loads without breaking the bank. IMHO. I wish the bonded bullets like the Hornady Interbond and Nosler Accubond weren't so darn pricey and hard to find... they are sweet... and sort of like in between the performance characteristics of a Hornady SST and a Barnes TTSX. So many great choices... can't with till the supply chain recovers and we can find them on the shelves again. Cheers.
@Paul Energy can kill and is what causes tissue damage. there are many examples of energy doing so. And I’m not referring to ammo the brakes apart when it enters an animal that kind of projectile wouldn’t be effective at delivering energy at all. An effective round should be able to stay together, dump a large amount of energy into the target, and still be able to penetrate deep enough to either pass through or making to the opposite side of a target.
Tests like this improve the ethics of hunting. Thanks for doing it.
I have two deer rifles one is 7mm mag one is 6.5cm. I shoot those interlock bullets the same ones you tested. I will say from quite a bit of experience on Michigan white tails they run with the 6.5 they don’t run with the 7mm. Of course shot placement matters in that very much. Just thought I’d share. I was very excited when you pulled those two rounds out being that’s what I use. Keep up the good work.
Interesting video and a well thought out test. Years back we loaded a 165gr BT Interlock in a .308 carbine, an '06, a .308 Norma and a .300 Win Mag, then went out as a family for a few seasons and took as many local whitetail and mulie bucks as we could. We also do our own meat processing so get a good idea of the tissue damage. While there was "some" difference in terminal performance, it absolutely wasn't as much as any of us expected. Nowadays I usually hunt with a 6.5 Swede - the grandfather of the 6.5CM I suppose, but it's loaded with monometal bullets.
I think bullet design/construction and velocity are absolutely more important than a specific cartridge. Bullets that work best in something like a 6.5 CM are very likely to be different than the one that works best in a 6.5-300 Wby.
Yes, but some cartridges can generate more velocity even with the same caliber/bullet design.
Great video! So much more content to explore with this topic.👍
Best change I’ve ever made was changing to Barnes TTSX!! Awesome bullets. Use 180s for my 308, 70s in my daughters AR 223.
Interesting test but I'm wondering what effect the dry wood has on the expansion of the bullets?
Did all the bullets in these tests expand as they would in an animal?
Very smart man! Only person I saw call out the obvious. 6.5s have deeper penetration due to it's surface area on contact being thinner. so if the bullet was a solid, non expanding, it would have gone through both gels, at least I know the 6.5 prc would have, I've seen it. Expanding bullets dump all of there energy the second the bullets punctures the first surface it punctures. The guy doesn't know much about ballistics and bullet design.
Could you do one on 300 prc vs 300wm and wsm? I would really like to see the difference there
That would be a good one. I would love to see that also!
I'd like to see 300 weatherby in that mix also
Might as well throw 30-06 and 308 in there also battle of the 30 cals
Don’t forget 300 RUM, SAUM, Nosler, Norma, Savage, H&H….🤷♂️
Win mag and short mag have to be close
Luv these gell tests, very interesting, I'm sure that the faster cals would have had bigger wound channels tho .......I'm a fan of the bonded ammo like speer hot-cor, would luv to see more gell tests 👍🇦🇺 .....thanks for your vids
Great test! I have had excellent results with the GMX bullets out of my 6.5 CM out to 300 yards. Have taken several whitetails between 200 - 300 yards and have not had any of them tote it off more than 5 yards. I have also had good results with the ELD-X bullets, but IMO the GMX will penetrate through the shoulder better with devastating performance to the vitals.
I think it would be interesting to see some of the results of using a heavier bullet with a hotter load in the 6.5 prc on big game. I know that there have been a lot of people who have been able to push the 156 grain EOL bullet from berger at over 3,000 fps in the 6.5prc
The 150gr. LR Accubond could give a few more inches in the 6.5 PRC!
That’s why I’ve steered away from the 6.5 prc. The factory bullet choice is eldx or eldm only and I don’t handload. I think with a nosler, swift, or Barnes bullet that prc would be an elk sized game hammer out to around 500 yards.
There’s getting to be more factory options
Nosler makes a 142gr Trophy Grade 6.5 PRC. They work great but I still the Hornady Eldx is better.
@@LaXStuD9191 the eldx might group better. But the nosler accubond LR bullets are just a better than the ELDX for hunting. The ELDX just turns to powder on impact. And Ive taken enough bluewildebeest to know that you dont use a bullet that preforms like the ELDX on them
@@francoisbuys8783 for Handloaders go with Swift AFrame, Nosler Partition or Accubond, Barnes TTSX, Peregrine VLR4 or for Bushhunting VRG3
Fact, 6.5PRC out performs a 7mag past 200yds (same bullet weight), and delivers over 1500 ftlbs at 500yds. More than enough for elk if you shoot them right 🤔
Nice shots
Keep up the work little one
I would love to see the same test with a .243 and a 30.06.
Thank you for your excellent video's. God Bless you and your family.
I’ve mentioned this on your channel several times before. Cup and core are not the most ideal bullets for hunting.
IMO, big game should be hunted with Partitions, A-Frames or monolithics (pick your brand, I like Barnes LRXs).
What advise did you get from you PH in Africa?
the Federal terminal ascent and swift sirocco are good choices as well. lead up front with a heavier tapered jacket, and a solid copper base.
@@jonathanrogers9961 - I completely agree.
@@jonathanrogers9961 also Peregrine VLR4 there are many good Solid Bullets out there i hunt with Nosler Partition and Accubond, Barnes TTSX and Peregrine VLR4
@@lenzadlberger will have to look into the peregrine. Not a fan of accubond for big game. Among solids lehigh and hammer also come to mind
@@jonathanrogers9961 the Accubonds i use for the Time in the Year when we go for Meat Hunting Wildboar Piglets or for Fellow Deer / Roe Deer and Buck
So from 10 up to 60kg for this they work great for Bigger i use Nosler Partition Barnes TTSX or Peregrine VLR4
my 308 works great with Barnes ttsx and the Accubond / my 7x57R with Nosler Partition and Barnes TTSX and in my 8x57is and 8x68s i go with the Peregrine or Partition espacially in the 8x68s you need Hard Bullets all thin Jackets nearly explode in it and so does the Target... 200grains at 3000 ft/s is no Joke 😜
I wish you had concluded with 6.5 Grendel. Since the penetration was close to the same with all of the variety of muzzle energy levels, I'm curious how the Grendel would fare in relation to the Creedmoor.
Well, it has ligher bullets at lower velocities.. You might get penetration but only because it move to slow to expand properly.
Its NO replacement for creedmoor or 308, they are TWICE the gunpowder. With copper bullets (say a 100 grain) you will get full penetration on most animals if you have a 20" barrel.. But thats mostly the design of copper bullets.
@@jmkhenka spoken like someone that doesn't know much about grendel terminal ballistics. 123g hunting rounds expand reliably out of an 18 inch barrel out to 400y with most hunting loads.
And if the quantity of powder mattered that much, the 7mm mag would have more penetration. This test showed that the increased penetration from all that extra energy was minimal. So again, I'd like to see how it fares for myself, rather than assuming things based on numbers on a chart.
@@OneLocalStudent there is sufficient videos on the Grendel. It's no replacement for a larger round. I have one, would never bring it for hunting (if swedish laws allowed it, wich it doesnt. It lacks 500J of energy @100 meters) what i normalt would use a 308 for, or a 6.5x55.
@@jmkhenka Grendel is 35gr and Creedmoor is 52gr case capacity so no not even close. 70gr would be double the capacity of 6.5 Grendel.
@@jmkhenka and i just watched a gel test of a 120gr Hornady GMX at 2550fps penetrate 27” in Gel with a bigger wound channel than these because it’s a superior bullet construction.
You're right on about the penetration being equal with the same bullet design in different calibers. I've seen nearly equal penetration with Winchester's Deer Season XP in 7-mag, 350 Legend, 7.62x39, and .223. All of them often don't exit a deer at 100 yards and are basically a glorified varmint round (they still work though). With the copper bullets, I've gone to hunting deer with my 223 and get pass-throughs at 200 yards.
I love the fact that you are not all biased I own a few guns chambered the same with different set up meaning AR vs bolt...I personally think that can change pressure and should be noted. Like I said awesome job keep up the good work!👍
The deeper it penetrates, the slower energy is delivered. Penetration is kind of one variable on a complex equation. Great video thanks you.
Used Remington core-loct for a few years because they were cheap, I could always find them and liked the performance but then got sucked into the Eldx hype of high BC hunting ammo and I ended up picking lead out of my food along with cutting away a lot more bloodshot meat. I just switched to Barnes ttsx this year, finally listening to guys in their late 50's who've been advising me to make the change for about 5 years. I guess next I'll have to start Reloading like they've been on me to start doing too. I'm sure the TTSX and GMX are on par. I think moving toward these premium bullets will keep me from eating lead, make better use of the game I harvest and hopefully help the animal expire faster.l
Should definitely get into reloading, it saves money and you can make custom and more accurate loads. Personally I have only had bad experiences with the ttsx's that I have tried in multiple calibers but others swear by them. If you want a good high BC hunting bullet that wont blow lots of lead into the meat then look at the accubonds, fed fusion, swift scirocco 2's or any good bonded bullet.
A good, usually cheaper bullet by Speer used to be the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Haven't loaded any in years, may not still make them? The FBI rifle load used this bullet at one time. A 62 grain bullet with the initials stamped on the rear of the bullet. I still have few boxes left. I tested these and through 2 to 3 inches of wood it held its weight and shape like a large caliber bonded bullet. Which actually surprised me considering 5.56 usually doesn't perform like that.
i,ve watched lots of stuff on the ELD-X fragmenting. and was surprised how some seem to think that's a good thing. they like that that improves their chances of hitting vitals. absolutely insane logic.
I appreciate your videos!
I just came across your channel and thought I recognized some of the areas, turns out you are in Southern Utah! Cool!
I'll stick with basic 180gr SP .308 for elk-ish sized game, thanks.
I've seen a few channels say that the ELD-X bullets aren't good on larger than deer sized game. It seems Nosler Partition is a preferred bullet for bigger game. That said I have no experience with anything bigger than deer; but I WAS really interested in getting a 6.5prc to double as a Midwest deer and western hunting rifle (muley, pronghorn, elk.)
What is the difference with interlock and ELD-X
@@Dino2GunZ Pretty sure they are almost identical. The ELDX just has a different shape and ballistic tip for a higher BC.
@@Nick-sx6jm okay thanks for the reply I appreciate it I'm not a hunter I don't know too much about the hunting rounds
You are right on the money. Next to shot placement bullet construction is very important.
This was great! More please!
Cole seems unimpressed by his great marksmanship. Handled it well 👏
Haha. Yeah, he really gets in the zone. Took him a minute to get excited.
Looks pretty reserved in nature. Those are the sorts of rifleman that get the job done because placing a shot isn't influenced by testosterone and adrenaline and messed up judgement.
If you want a good penetrating bullet for the 6.5 Creedmoor, try the 127 gr Barnes LRX
My son took a great 6x6 bull elk last year using the 127 Barnes LRX in 6.5 Creed. Granted it was only 110 yards. But we have come to like that bullet for his Creed. I use Nosler 130 AB in my 6.5 PRC and it has always been "no tracking required".
You are making such a valid point with any type hunting bullet. Bullet construction, penetration, and shot placement (not in that order) is key when taking a bullet hunting. This is why Nosler Partitions were developed. Barnes and others are also great choices. Shot placement is so key when hunting and cannot be stressed enough. You are also correct, those that say that any one caliber, bullet, or shot placement is a guarantee that a one shot drop on an animal is going to happen is just plain lying to themselves and others. It doesn't always happen even when all the stars align on a kill shot. Great video! Keep up the good work!
I would be curious how the penetration of the bullets compare at different distances. For example test at 50, 100, 150, 200 yards etc. My thought is bullets slow down quickly once they have more than just air for resistance which means once they impact they're probably on a similar playing field if they all have similar energy at point of impact. At 50 yards I would think all of the bullets are probably still carrying most of their effective energy. If that distance before contact is stretched out, will the larger calibers penetrate deeper due to carrying more effective energy over a longer distance with only air/gravity as the resistance factor?
Sectional Density used to be the determining factor in penetration on game. For years hunters picked heavy for caliber bullets at modest velocities and relied on momentum and Sectional Density to drive bullets deep. The 160 gr round nose in the 6.5x55 Swede is a known moose killer in this configuration. The 220 gr round nose in the 06 was taken all over Africa and Asia with good success. The advent of higher velocity cartridges makes deep penetration difficult. As velocity increases, so does expansion. As expansion increases, so does shock trauma, but at the expense of penetration. For heavy game using high velocity cartridges and loads, bullet selection becomes crucial. Monolithic expanding bullets like the Barnes TSX and Hornady GMX, and partitioned bullets like the Nosler Partition and Swift Aframe have a good reputation for handling big game with magnum rifle velocity and still exhibiting good penetration. But still to this day, large caliber non-expanding round nose slugs with excellent Sectional Densities at moderate velocity are preferred for the largest and toughest game.
I’m interested that your opinion has changed on 6.5 PRC. I feel like it would be alright for elk. They don’t have super thick skin like bear, bison or wildebeest
Great test. Very interesting.
I read one of WDM Bell's book on African hunting elephants (and other game) using a 7mm Mauser. He used nothing but 'solids' (FMJ) and stated the long of beam (no pencil point) semi rounded head ammo stayed true on its course through the head of an elephant best of all designs. He stated velocites 2200-2400 fps, about 170-180 grains were his choice. He used 303 British and sometimes a 318. He killed a ton of plains game with a 6.5 of some sort. He was a fantastic shot way beyond the pale of normal people though, and his bullet placement was exact.
African game isn’t bullet proof but seems more tenacious than our whitetail
A nosler partition, swift A frame or Barnes TSX would be my pick before a ELD-X
Facts
I agree. Bullet design is more important. From many different TH-cam channels testing ELD-X bullets, the general conclusion is the perform like match bullets. Smaller wound channels and greater chance of breaking apart. Can’t argue with the Nosler Partition.
So the 6.5 creedmoor is just fine for hunting. 🤷 turns out hunting is actually about shot placement and not so much the size of the cartridge.
Bullet construction too. And not shooting too large of an animal for the given caliber. Even the PRC was severely underpowered for that wildebeest. You missed half the point of the video.
@@JTTTTT850 I bet a 375 hh to the guts might not have ended well either. Keep shooting till they are down. After the first shot need to keep sending lead with any caliber game combo. If they are on their feet they have a chance to keep going. I saw my dad put a 300 wby hornady bullet into a cow elks chest but a little far back but still caught at least one lung at around 200 and she ran approximately 1/2 a mile to 3/4 of a mile before we found her still breathing. She required a 2nd shot to finish her. Biggest point being I don’t believe hornady projectiles on game are all they are hyped up to be.
I love your channel. Thank you for saving me hundreds of hours of research. I've just committed to purchasing a Fierce Edge CT 6.5 PRC for elk hunting. Your ballistics test into jell indicated that the bullet makes a Tremendous Difference in penetration. What PRC round would you recommend to improve the odds of NOT needing a second shot to take down the animal?
You should really try out the 6.5-300 wby. I personally own one that I got as my “1” big game gun. It would be really cool to see a test on it.
When the 6.5 creedmoore started getting popular , lots of my friends bought into the hype . I seen more wounded animals that year than ever before . You dont try long range hunting with a target caliber . They were trying to take down elk and deer at 600-800 yards .
The 6.5x55 Swede has been used for generations to take Moose, Brown bear and deer sized animals in Europe. It’s not the caliber it’s the bullet construction.
@@Peter-od7op Works just fine if you know the limits of your round...95% of all hunters have no business shooting more than 400 yards. 6.5 will take elk just fine out to that point. Anything farther just get a 6.5 PRC.
I would use a premium bullet for bigger game especially in the smaller 6.5's. There's a reason the Nosler Partition is still such a strong seller and a 140 gr in your Creedmoor would have been perfect. Swift, Woodleigh, Norma and others make great premium slugs as well. I'm also in the camp of having to be careful of the mono metal bullets at long range where they won't open up as well as a good lead design but they are fantastic is the impact speed is high still. Thanks for the video.
So here's my take. I have been watching your channel for some time and I understand that you are a seasoned marksman and assume hunter too. With regards to bullet choice - I have taken a Bleshbuck (same as the second buck in this video) ranged at 270 meters (practically the same distance) with 140 Berger VLD Hunt. The buck dumped all of its blood in less than 20 metes/yards and fell over because it now had an extra orifice through the heart. This was the perfect shot and bullet combo as the Berger bullets are designed to expand very quickly and obliterate this target as it bursts open after just 3 inches of penetration, and what's left is the shank that cuts through to the other side. That's their "Dead Right There" philosophy, and it could be argued as the ideal, because it results in minimal carcass damage (however it could also go very wrong too) A year after that the Hornady ELDX took to the market with huge success, and I had similar results, with the exception that the ELDX held together a bit more and this resulted in more often knocking down animals, because it would disable both front legs, and causing more meat/muscle damage. Or if its not a fatal shot it seemed like an animal would be able to run further, as its would mostly have flesh wounds, and maybe a broken leg bone or rib. Where the bergers generally would cause more catastrophic damage in the body cavity. So back to the beginning statement - a Wildebeast has really odd anatomy compared to other African and even Northern Hemisphere game, and is know for often catching out hunters with shot placements that just misses the mark by a bit. So when just missing the mark with a bullet like ELDX that retains its mass well, compared to the almost frangible nature of Berger its not uncommon to see an animal that is disabled but not down or still able to keep up with its herd. Or maybe like you say, this is just my anecdotal experience. One thing I firmly believe, is every hunt has its own experiences that could cause you to re-evaluate all your previous experiences.
Learning the penetration difference between what I would consider a standard bullet and a copper bullet was definitely unexpected. Good information and something to keep in mind when buying your cartridges. Penetration is important and you don’t want to over penetrate. Went through both blocks of gel? That’s really something else …