This video comes out just about a week before I present my final project in my university. We are making a cargo trike and we designed the suspension and tilting mechanism inspired with your videos. You helped us A LOT so THANKS!
I love making project that work and sharing the knowledge as clearly as I can. This comment makes me super proud of my work and it's super inspiring. Thank you for that. Success with your project! Cheers!
@@paradiselost9946 The last versión of the trike was more than enough for the prototype we are making and it allows for improvement, thank you for worrying though
Thank you so much for the inspiring words! I do want to reach the point where it's so good that it's my main vehicle but after that I'll share other projects that I think will also be interesting;) Cheers!
Pedro, thank you so very much for your transparent review of your tilting cargo trike design. You did a very thorough job, and have earned the respect of your viewers! I look forward to seeing your design solutions and improvements in upcoming videos! Keep up the excellent work!
If you make the pulley on your cable steering elliptical or 'oval' as they are called for chainrings you will get less sensitive steering around the straight line, while keeping your small turning radius as only used at low speeds...
@@markifi Ummm... no... no you dont. :) The geometry works out such that chain tension with one chainring circular and other side elliptical remains the same. ;)
@@pedro-neves Exactly. :) Glad you 'see' and like the idea. 'See' as in realise there aren't any chain, belt, wire, etc tension or changing length issues... (for others reading this) It should make tadpoles, recumbents, velos, etc way less twitchy/safer, without having to turn the handlebars right around 2-3 times for tight=low speed turns.
Thank you so much! Indeed I am not sure if there is sufficient Ackerman but I think there is because in all kind of turns there is no scrubbing of the wheels. Cheers!
I'm surprised you didn't use steel for your axle as your first choice. The weight is very small but the fatigue performance much better. I suspect the real reason the axle broke was the cornering on one wheel which I would expect to greatly increase the axle load. I've had a leaning trike in design for the last 20 years or so, I just haven't found time to actually make it. I picked down hill front hubs with 20mm axle, which I plan to be steel tube. I early reonned ball joints would not allow enough lean so I had intended to use trunnion pivots for lean with king pins for steering. Your trike works, well done, I think it is great.
Ya, steel would have been much better. I think I chose aluminium because it was my first part being made in a lathe and aluninium just sounded easier... Trunnion pivots - I'm always learning here, thanks! Thank you for the kind words;)
Great work! Thanks for sharing not only your success, but a failures too. It makes your solutions more understandable. According to the front wheel axle I'd use steel. It won't demand to raise axle diameter and, probably, allows you to keep the front knuckle unchanged.
Thank you so much! Indeed, there's a lot of knowledge in the process (mistakes). I'm happy to read that this is vallued. I will definitely use steel next time. I need to change the knuckle anyway because I think I'll improve the steering by reducing the kingpin inclination. Cheers!
Thank you so much for taking us all along on the process of designing, iterating and building this wonderful trike. Also it's great that you've done most of the work in what looks like the back yard of your flat. It shows that you don't need an expensive workshop to make beautiful and innovative contraptions.
"the next one i will show, will not have any fundamental flaw". famous last words of many :) if that happens, please don't keep your word, people often enjoy the process, no matter the end result. otherwise we might not get even that!
Thank you so much! Maybe it will have the "final" and then the "final 2" and the "final 3";) In any case, I will keep sharing my projects. I loving doing that. Cheers!
Nice video! I was quite sad to see the completed trike thinking there would be no more trike build videos, then it broke and you're going to improve it again! I can't wait for the next one :)
Thank you so much! That's super inspiring to do more;) I do want to reach a "product worthy" design version of the trike. But I think I will continue to do videos and I hope they will be of increasingly interesting projects. E.g. I would love to start designing and building an electric mid-drive with gearbox. Cheers!
I love this project . Great job! My suggestions: For the Axle bore out your part and use a central 8.8 steel bolt. It should be plenty strong and you simplified the Design. From a manufacturing standpoint avoid the sharp corner between different radiuu next time. Putting a slight radius around the circumference will reduce shearing stress at this point immensely . Keep on inspiring!
Thank you! I'm having all this trouble designing the axle because I love these Lefty hubs;) Definitely need to reduce the sharpness of the transitions! Keep on inspiring you too!
What an awesome trike build! Yes you should absolutely switch the material of the axles to steel. Aluminum never has an infinite fatigue life, whereas steel can. So under repeated loads, like you would expect in an axle, the aluminum will always eventually fail. Even if you increase the diameter where it joins into the knuckle, it will still eventually fail. In an axle that has that large of a diameter you could likely make it out of hollow steel without losing too much strength compared to solid steel. So you could save a little bit of weight there. But there is probably math you should do before you start hollowing out the axles lol. Also I would suggest making the knuckle out of steel as well. It will receive the force from the axle and also eventually fail, if it is made from aluminum.
I love this series. I wanted to build my own after seeing other prototypes on TH-cam but I lack the skills. I would have loved one of these to take my children for rides when they were young. I did pull them in a trailer which they loved but this would have been so much better. Good luck with the remaining objectives.
Thank you so much! Indeed riding a self-made vehicle is super rewarding. And it sounds like you had a lot of fun with your kids and the trailer as well;) Nice to read about it;) Cheers!
Axles should be mounted on standard M16 or something like that screw. This is such a simple part and important component - it should be easly replacable and made of hardened steel - just like a solid bolt.
Unfortunately, to mitigate tilting problem you need much more than swapping the ball joint. This effect will simply appear at bit greater angles, but the inner wheel will still bear most of the weight in the turn. Instead you have to rework linkage for change in camber angle through the suspension travel just like you fixed toe angle change due to change in travel. That will solve third problem as well. And - maybe even more importantly - decouple suspension, adding second damper.
Thank you for the tips! Indeed, I intend to have a bigger inclination limit but I will keep the strain on the inner wheel. But I think that's alright. Cheers!
Have you had any thoughts about doing the rear wheels in the same way? I'm keen to try a small electric car using motorcycle wheels (small ones, like off a 80cc motorcross bike). I think this is the future of transport.
Hi Pedro, as always thanks for posting and being a source of inspiration. I'm trying to finish the front suspension, I also have a problem with the ball joints limiting the tilting. But i dont know how bad is it until i can ride it. Still have to do the steering and some other things,this video couldn't come up at a better time. I feel indebted to you since i got so much from your channel.
Thank you. Indeed, I think there is a possibility to add more range by shaping the wishbone. Though, being a tilting system, I think it may still not be enough. I'm thinking of using the same type of ball joint that I used on the frame side oriented vertically and use spacers to have more steering angle. Cheers!
Thank you! The inside wheel does turn more complying with the Ackerman geometries. This is accomplished with the position where the steering arm fasten to the bracket. Cheers!
I love the bike you made! Could you show us how does the front suspension works? Like with more weight on it. The offroad videos were a bit shaky 😁, maybe a stationary suspension compression test? I come from the mtb world and our roads need a good suspension.
Thank you! Absolutely. I want to do tests with cargo but I will redesign and rebuild first. I'm also considering buying an action camera to improve the onboard videos. Cheers!
Beautiful work💪. Sure someone will pedant "aluminium is proper" but in this context, that's just the way it is. It's a big frame. Weight is king. Unless it's an axle 😜 ...Titanium's nice 😉 Only tiny thing to suggest that you're not already doing: maybe put a gaiter on the steering cable exit to reduce water ingress long term. VBrake rubber gaiters might work....
Thank you! Hehe, yes, I know how controversial it can get the "steel vs aluminium" discussion. But 32 kg vs 50 kg does settle it for me. And the fact that the high and motorcycles and cars are made of aluminium. Unless it's an axle;) Totally agreed! Good tip on the rubber protections for the cables, thanks!
Well done on the improvements.. It performs very well. Some small refinements coming. A small radius where the axle was turned down to form the stub, will help stop a crack forming even in steel. (Remember the DC10 aircraft dropping their engines? This was the cause of their bolts failing.)
Nice update! I've been using 20mm steel axles on my trike, welded to 3mm steel plate as base of the spindle. The axel is working well, colud probably be quite a bit thinner, hollow or both, but I would say it's a good idea to leave alu for the axles. I'm not sure you saw my construction of spindle on reddit, but it might be part of the solution to get the kingpin angle steeper by putting the lower balljoint below the discbrake and further out. Maybe even get also the upper balljoint above the disc might be a good idea to make it even steeper. I guess there is no real need for the self stabelizing functions this angle provides on a tiliting vehicle. My dream would be to have "umbrella" shaped wheels though to be able to make this line vertical, but harder to find such wheels. Regarding the turning radius, I have the same problem that I would like to make it quite a bit thighter. I', also having the same problem that the steering angle of the inner wheel is still to small when the steering bar aligns with the 2 turning points of the spindle. I don't have a good idea how to make this better but I don't think that you're idea of moving the joint of the steering arm forward will help much. Imagine that the steeringbar just consists of 1 piece going from one spindle directly to the other. Then you'll still have about the same max angle of the when when the steeringbar and the 2 turning points of the spindle aligns.
Hey, thank you so much for sharing those design thoughts. Super interesting! I did not see your design in Reddit. Would you like to publish in this forum? www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/. I believe you sent me an email with pictures of your build right? That was cool! But in Reddit I think it's easier to discuss. Cheers!
cant... the way the swingarms move means those pivots change distance depending on where in the travel they are. its going to be constantly varying from toe in to toe out...
Thank you for the suggestion! I haven't made that because with the tilting mechanism it makes it hard to connect both like that because there's the frame in the middle.
@@paradiselost9946 hmm, I didn't think about that. My main concern to connecting both wheels to each other was the frame being in the middle when tilting.
This is very impressive progress. I really like your steering geometry improvements and I’m excited to see the next generation. I do have a couple ideas to improve your knuckle and spindle parts. Where there is a change in cross section on the spindle, you should add a radius or fillet if possible. This is especially important where the reaction caused by the wheel is high, at the joint with the knuckle. I like your idea to keep the larger diameter spindle rather than turning it down to a smaller diameter. If you do this, you could simply increase the bore size of the knuckle where the spindle is inserted. The spindle diameter may exceed the thickness of the knuckle, but this is okay. When you insert the spindle into the knuckle, it will protrude on both sides and can be welded in. The advantage to doing this you would have a lot of welding length for a strong connection. Another alternative would be making the knuckle and spindle in one piece. If you have access to a milling machine this can be done easily with a boring head. If not, a four jaw lathe chuck can be used, especially if you have a live center to support the spindle. Best of luck with further development. I can’t wait to see more on this.
Thank you so much! 1) Absolutely. Changing the radius like I did is just wrong. 2) I agree. I do have a completely different knuckle design in mind because I'll change the ball joints to increase the amount of lean and also to decrease the kingpin angle so I'll have an axle diameter > 12 mm. 3) Right, I only welded on one side but if I have welded on the other it would have been much better... 4) A knuckle and spindle in one piece does sound like an awesome part! Though splitting makes it easier to make (less nice though). Again, thank you for the suggestions and kind words;) Cheers!
Scherpe overgang in de as kan ook een probleem zijn. Als ik jou was zou ik de buitendiameter van de as 22mm maken (of wat de grootste diameter is), de as van een geschikte staal soort maken en hol maken.
you've invented a new sport ..... mountain triking. I think it will catch on eventually. That is one very challenging design problem you have going there where tilting and steering interact and end of travel comes into play. Great effort. Great crash. Great job shrugging it off and I can't wait to see what you come up with next video.
Trikes are already a popular (if not the only reasonable) option for paraplegic MTBers. My recommendation is to have a look at what Bowhead make. Crazy expensive, yes, but not that much more than top of the range legacy E-MTB are
Thanks! Indeed I have considered changing the shape o f the lower arm but I think it will not be enough. I'm considering doing a study to find how much tilt is needed before going into my next design.
steel axles would be great except galvanic corrosion, I don´t know if there is space for coating to separate them from contact, so consider, btw. best trike I saw anyone made, because yours is tilting, I love it, enjoy it
Thank you! And good point, I considered changing the shape of the arms to have more tilting range but I still think it will not be enough so I'm considering changing the type of connection to alow more range. Cheers!
Waaw, that is nice ! Just one advice before I finish your awesome (as usual) video, in order not to forget. I am not a professional TIG welder (not yet I hope) but it appears quite obvious that you should have less tungsten stick length out, unless you waste much on gas flow. Even on inner corner you might be able to have less stick out. And it is recommended not to move your torch immediately after your weld, to let both your weld and your tungsten under argon protection against oxydation. But my be it is not so relevant when welding aluminium, i am just recommending what I learnt;
Fantastic to see the evolution. You certainly have more experience than me, however since a few failures I've developed a nagging fear of metal fatigue in aluminum. I'd probably want to consider steel. But, then we have the potential for galvanic corrosion. There's no way that joint won't have an electrical connection as well as electrolyte (road salt etc.). So I'd be interested in hearing what you think. I'm starting my builds with a bike trailer (non tilting 😂) but would like to someday build a recumbent trike ❤
Thank you so much! This vehicle weighs 32 kg compared to my last one made of steel at almost 50 kg. This is a big difference for seeming the same vehicle. Most modern motorcycles are made of aluminium and more and more cars chassis are being made of aluminium so I think aluminium is definitely better if you're doing it right. I'm not claiming that I'm doing it right but I want to be working to one day have the best vehicle possible and I think that's with aluminium and not steel. Cheers!
1. Aluminum is fine for the axles. Just make the connection at the same size as the larger hub bearing. Taper the axle as well. There’s a reason Canondale does this. 2. You’re wanting to produce a cargo bike, not just a tricycle, so make sure you’re doing the tests with varying cargo loads. How does the front suspension perform when it’s at a higher pressure to account for a payload? How will the vehicle handle when it is calibrated for a payload but is currently empty? Can this performance be improved by using a lock out in one of the travel modes (loaded vs unloaded).
Hi, I agree that the axles can be made out of aluminium with a better design. Though, I think I'll make them out of steel next time to compensate for design errors. Regarding the tests with loads - totally agree. Cheers!
Failure is the best part of anything you create and operate. What aluminum alloy did you utilize for the axles? The engineer in me is confident aluminum can be used with minimal challenges. The realist in me says move to steel, and spend the saved time modeling the geometry. I would still increase the diameter as much as is practical. I should have some free time this weekend. I'll download your drawing and see what kind of solutions I can produce.
Absolutely. One learns so much with failure. I don't even know what aluminium alloy I used. It was whatever the workshop where I rented the Lathe had (they also sell material). The next one will be made will all the considerations for sure. And probably steel to reduce risk. Sounds good on working with the drawing! If you want to share stuff and discuss and suggest creating a thread on this sub that I created (for this type of occasion): www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/. Cheers!
Go for steel on the axles, also pretension with enough torque to ensure increased fatigue. My guesstimate is that the aluminium axles failed due to fatigue rather than actual stress
Great progress. It is good to see the performance improvements. One thing I was wondering about your testing, how is it with a cargo load? I don't have the time right now, but I am very interested in using your design in my own build. Thank you for putting out your work for others to use.
Thank you! I was going to make the box for cargo to test it but the axle broke so now I'll redesign and build again and then do the tests with cargo. Cheers!
YT just recommended this to me and I'm glad I'm here! Your design reminds me a bit of the design Johansson (part of Pierer NewMobility now) uses on its Oscar S and Oscar M cargo bikes. They also have a double wishbone design with a single damper between both sides. When the damper, and especially it's rebound, is set up properly, the Oscar M (which I have) is *very* stable going fast. Going downhill, I've reached speeds of 50-60kph with it! It's also capable to do some limited offroading. I've taken my Oscar M to places no cargo bike has ever been before (and probably never will again, lol). Johansson has some videos of the handling online, if you're interested. If you're interested and are still looking for some inspiration for your design, I could also film some video of the Oscar M suspension at work (I have some action cameras that should provide good footage). Also, in a video about different kinds of steering for recumbent trikes (non cargo), Utah Trikes also mentioned the Ackermann geometry. My Azub recumbent trike also turns the corner inner wheel more than the outer wheel and it feels very stable. I can also provide footage/images of how they've done their steering. It's basically a parallelogram steering as well using rods as linkage. I already subscribed just now. I'm very interested in what you do next and how you solve the outstanding problems! If you're looking for a new project soon, I'd be very interested in how you'd approach the build of a recumbent trike with suspension ;D
Oh, thank you so much! The Oscar trike sure look cool! Before even going to the front, I like how they mounted the drive unit with simple brackets instead of a more complicated wrap around. The wheels are super cool! I like the simplicity of the tubing. And finally the tilting mechanism looks great. I will watch a few more of their videos. I haven't seen how much the vehicle can lean. Do you know? And is it enough to you? Furthermore, if you like to share some videos of details that would be lovely. In this case, I would suggest posting here: www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/. I created this sub due to this very reason ;). Again, thank you for your kind words. And so nice that you also had the idea of offroading with cargo vehicles;) Cheers!
@@pedro-neves The Oscar has bump stops made out of rubber that limit the leaning. The advantage is, that you don't have a hard limit that might unsettle the bike but it kinda softly stops you from leaning more. I actually took out a spacer nut because the lean wasn't enough for me and it's still stable ;) I'll try and set up a few videos showcasing the suspension. It'll take a few days though because it takes some time to get the right lighting outside for a proper quality video. I'll post the video on the subreddit when I've had the chance ;)
Some trikes have a locking mechanism to prevent the bike from leaning when going slowly or when parked. Have you found need for this type of mechanism?
Good catch! When I welded the tube, I melted some of it so the cup stays a bit out. But the whole headset keeps it in place so it's working even though with poor construction wuality. Cheers!
I think this would be a great Kickstarter project for tinkerers. You could provide backers with a more detailled build guide and the custom parts (e.g. CNC aluminum parts) and get a small profit for the time you invested into the development
Absolutely! I want to reach a design and build that it's so good that it becomes my main vehicle. Then I will try to monetize this project a bit by selling components and maybe the drawings as well. Cheers!
Regarding axles, have a look at a video on my channel, "replacing the bearings on a 8freight cargo bike bootsowen" (search) the bike is a 2 wheel cargo bike with single sided axles front and rear. the axles are steel into aluminium and are 12mm tapering to 10mm, much smaller than yours. I only have one front wheel so the loading is effectively doubled in my bikes axle compared to yours. Regarding where your axle broke in service: where you go from one turned diameter to another in your axle design it is important to have a radius and not a sharp step in the turning, as stresses will tend to be much higher, but putting a radius in will lessen the point stresses in the material.
Oh, I didn't know you have a channel. Super cool stuff there! And that cargo bike is so interesting. I never saw these before. You're absolutely on the changes of radius. I always mind these on my 3D prints but first lathe project and I forgot something fundamental. Well, next time I'll do a better design and it will probably made of steel.
Re the 30 degrees angle of the ball joint. Would a simple fix be to modify the bottom control arm with a bend before it attaches. so that when it fits onto the stub axle , it’s closer to a 90 degree? I’m also wondering about the angle of the steering rods (tie rods). I wonder what would happen if they are closer to 90 degrees to the frame? Hard to explain without a drawing.
I agree with you that I would be able to increase the lean by changing the shape of the lower arm. Though, I still think that not enough. It's a great point that I may have to change the connections of the steering rods!
Thank you! You have a good point - In my opinion, how others can benefit is by learning the bits of lessons that I share. Just like I watch many videos from other creators and take many lessons. Also, I'm sharing the drawings. Hundreds of hours of work on those. Someone interested in making a build can get started from those drawings and getting it done faster and easier. Do you have other suggestions? Cheers;)
Thanks for sharing your project with everyone. At 14:14 .. I noticed your damaged left thumb. Something that everyone should learn about this. When you hit your finger like this .. stop what you are doing .. and with the other hand .. wrap around the damaged area .. with pressure and at the same time .. begin to hyperventilate .. which increases the oxygen in your blood and improves circulation. You want to breathe fast until you notice that you are feeling dizzy .. then slow down your breathing .. to maintain the dizziness .. and keep pressure on your finger .. until the pain greatly subsides. Then you can let go .. and while there may be some redness and tenderness .. there will usually be no blackened fingernail. Remember .. we are told to elevate a damage limb to keep the tissues from swelling. The swelling has the effect of drowning your damaged cells as they release fluid .. slowing oxygen transfer. By applying pressure directly on the damage area .. you keep the tissues from blowing up and capillaries from releasing blood. In a very few minutes of breathing fresh oxygen .. your cells will have a chance to repair. If you have broken a bone .. it will take a while to mend .. but the tissues around the bone will be in much better shape. I learned this from a doctor .. and have experienced it several times .. others too. ALL the BEST!!
Hello and thank you so much! It's very kind of you to notice that my thumb got hurt and share all that precious advice. I got hurt by doing something quite stupid - holding something millimeters from where I'm hammering very hard. I hope I never do this again but if I do I'll keep your advice in mind. Cheers! All the best to you!
@@pedro-neves I have worked in the hospital ER and on an ambulance .. but never was trained to do what I shared with you. In 1980 I learned this from a visiting doctor .. didn't know what to think about it .. but decided to try it out next time I got hurt like that .. I was amazed. 🙂
@@MerwinARTist, thank you for your service! And yes, many times, one learns randomly in life some very important things that jobs don't teach. The school of life;)
I previously mentioned my doubts about the cable steering, but I'm no glad to hear that it seems to work that well! Did you ever retension it during your tests now?
The problem that I had with tension was the cables slipping (in the main head tube they are pressed with bolts) so I used washers with a rough surface instead of smooth and tightened the bolts hard and never had to tension again.
On the bush trail, the vehicle seems difficult to control. It seems to want to spear off the path. The tilting will steer it as well as the steering mechanism. A standard bike when titling doesn’t need much actual steering. Most is done by the tilt. Do you think the rider will get used to this, or is your steering too sensitive. I like the variable steering idea from the other guy!
Great points! Indeed there's not much steering in a bike. Though, I think that a cargo bike will have more steering than a bike because the vehicle being long it needs more steering to react. There is still one geometry aspect that I will consider in my next build - rake. I think I can make it more stable by plating with it. Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Would you be interested in putting a datalogger on a standard bike, and measure the lean, speed and steering angle on it? I went for a ride today and looked at how much the steering wheel moves. Not much. I'd love to see figures (surely some PHD student has done this?). Not sure if it's your interest. Ultimately, if a leaner is going to work like a normal bike, it has to tilt like a normal bike, and speed, lean and steering angle are the parameters. And perhaps a 'fly by wire' system, is the best way to make this work. Complex, but fun? Yes? No? Thoughts?
@@andrewmclean1239 Andrew, I thought of this idea before and I think it makes a lot of sense. As a control, probably best to test with a bike and a cargo bike and compare speed, turn and lean as you said. I'll look for some papers about it but if I can't find it may be a good project for me to share:).
@ that would be something else! If there is anything I can help with let me know. I’d try the elliptical idea first but imagine building the cybertruck steering for tadpoles!!
Actually steel and aluminium have very similar strength to weight ratio. So either can be built low weight. Steel is much more resistant to fatigue fractures.
Describe a turn not as an angle but as a radius. There are 90º turns that are sharp and 90º turns that are not sharp. The critical question is the radius of the turn.
Thank you! Correct! What's the point of being 90 degree if I make it wide... Thank you for correcting me on this. And for taking the trouble to do it. In return, I will state it correctly next time;) Cheers!
One feature of a bicycle is the ability to traverse an obstacle like a sidewalk stone by lifting the front wheel, swiftly (without descending from the bike - as well as driving down stairs). It seems to me a major drawback of cargo- and tricycle designs to loose that feature as sometimes obstacles can be overlooked (like a pothole filled with water in pouring rain conditions)...
Hi, I had this suggestion before and I still consider it given that when I increase the tilt, the steering struts ball bearings may not be sufficient anymore. Cheers!
Definitely make your new axles out of steel so they will last longer than a small test ride for a few days. Also you commented on the aluminum frame being better even though everyone else knows that steel is more durable, you said it was just better to be aluminum. Because weight is somehow a major factor on a cargo trike? That makes no sense. If you want your frame to be more durable and your axle axles to be more durable make them out of welded chromoly steel. It does not tear nearly as easily as aluminum. Mini race applications do use aluminum for frames and chassis, but not when durability is desired and weight is a minor concern. That's when everyone switches to steel or something better and far more expensive.
Hi, indeed saying that an aluminium frame is better than steel in absolute terms is a bit too absolute. But, here are my arguments: - 32 kg vs 50 for "apparently" the same functional frame - Most modern motorcycle frames are made of aluminium. And they are durable. I don't think BMW is wrong in making their frames of aluminium. - More and more car chassis are made of aluminium because they become more worried about mass and efficiency. I think that the best frame is made of aluminium. I don't claim that my frame is the best but if I'm trying to make the best, it should be made of aluminium. The axles should definitely not be made of aluminium;) Either steel or titanium the nest ones. Cheers!
Always make axles out of steel. Aluminium has a very limited fatigue life. If you don't overstress steel, it should last forever. Same with cranks, crank-shafts, etc.
Let me first say i’m a big fan of your videos, but that whole jiga thing is a major issue for me! As someone who is currently building a business myself i’m a big fighter for keeping money inside your local community. Why not build a relationship with a local machine shop?! A quick google search should give give you plenty of options! Also it’s more sustainable not only for the environment! You’re directly undermining your local economy. No wonder prices are higher than ever! You can change this! Imo everyone should quit Amazon temu and all that other BS! Take a look around your local area! Everything is already around you!
Hi, and thank you for being a fan of the videos. In respect to Jiga, let me promise that I only recommend a product or service that I think is great. With Jiga you can choose local suppliers, that's one of the advantages. And it's a marketplace for machine shops to find customers. I even have a friend that saw the video and asked how to become a supplier in Jiga as a way to get more customers.
@ If he is your friend why didn’t he make the parts?! And why aren’t you promoting him?! Was it cheaper to take the deal with the big corporate online Plattform?! Ask your supplier friend how high the fee is, he is charged be be on that Plattform, competing with garbage companies that violate human rights. Ever wonder how stuff from China can be so cheap?!
You have to get other people to ride it because the more You ride it the better you get at riding it and the more difficult it might be for someone that never sat on it.
This video comes out just about a week before I present my final project in my university. We are making a cargo trike and we designed the suspension and tilting mechanism inspired with your videos. You helped us A LOT so THANKS!
soooo... you basically copied a flawed design without analysing the issues, and engineering proper solutions?
yaaaay! education!
@paradiselost9946 You win the non-sequiter of the day trophy 🏆 congratulations.
Just like a pizza-cutter, all edge, no point.
@@johnosullivan675 if you are going to be all intellectual, like... at least get the latin correct.
_non sequitur_
I love making project that work and sharing the knowledge as clearly as I can. This comment makes me super proud of my work and it's super inspiring. Thank you for that.
Success with your project! Cheers!
@@paradiselost9946 The last versión of the trike was more than enough for the prototype we are making and it allows for improvement, thank you for worrying though
100% go with steel for any 'small size peak load' parts, axles being at the top of the list!
Axles are indeed on top of that list;)
I am sorry that the design isn't finished... but not sorry that there are going to be more videos! I love this. Keep up the fantastic work!
Thank you so much for the inspiring words! I do want to reach the point where it's so good that it's my main vehicle but after that I'll share other projects that I think will also be interesting;)
Cheers!
I would agree making the axles out of steel.
What a magnificent development. Thanks.
Thank you! I also agree with the steel axles;) Cheers!
Pedro, thank you so very much for your transparent review of your tilting cargo trike design. You did a very thorough job, and have earned the respect of your viewers! I look forward to seeing your design solutions and improvements in upcoming videos! Keep up the excellent work!
Thank yo so much for such kind and inspiring words;)
If you make the pulley on your cable steering elliptical or 'oval' as they are called for chainrings you will get less sensitive steering around the straight line, while keeping your small turning radius as only used at low speeds...
you introduce a new problem with keeping all the cables taught
Aah, what an interesting suggestion. Variable ratio steering. This is increasingly done in vehicles with steer-by-wire.
Cheers!
@@markifi Ummm... no... no you dont. :)
The geometry works out such that chain tension with one chainring circular and other side elliptical remains the same. ;)
@@pedro-neves Exactly. :)
Glad you 'see' and like the idea.
'See' as in realise there aren't any chain, belt, wire, etc tension or changing length issues... (for others reading this)
It should make tadpoles, recumbents, velos, etc way less twitchy/safer, without having to turn the handlebars right around 2-3 times for tight=low speed turns.
@@RayleneCawood yes I do appreciate the idea, thank you!
14:51 Steel is a much more durable material for the axle and since it's such a small component it shouldn't affect the weight much. 😊
Absolutely. I think the next one will be made either in steel or titanium.
Visually it looks like there is insufficient Ackerman angle. Love your trike and your videos on the builds. Best luck.
Seconding this
Thank you so much! Indeed I am not sure if there is sufficient Ackerman but I think there is because in all kind of turns there is no scrubbing of the wheels.
Cheers!
Do you have any caster in front suspension?
@@bosenswe yes, 10 deg.
I'm surprised you didn't use steel for your axle as your first choice. The weight is very small but the fatigue performance much better. I suspect the real reason the axle broke was the cornering on one wheel which I would expect to greatly increase the axle load.
I've had a leaning trike in design for the last 20 years or so, I just haven't found time to actually make it. I picked down hill front hubs with 20mm axle, which I plan to be steel tube. I early reonned ball joints would not allow enough lean so I had intended to use trunnion pivots for lean with king pins for steering.
Your trike works, well done, I think it is great.
Ya, steel would have been much better. I think I chose aluminium because it was my first part being made in a lathe and aluninium just sounded easier...
Trunnion pivots - I'm always learning here, thanks!
Thank you for the kind words;)
Great work! Thanks for sharing not only your success, but a failures too. It makes your solutions more understandable.
According to the front wheel axle I'd use steel. It won't demand to raise axle diameter and, probably, allows you to keep the front knuckle unchanged.
Thank you so much! Indeed, there's a lot of knowledge in the process (mistakes). I'm happy to read that this is vallued.
I will definitely use steel next time.
I need to change the knuckle anyway because I think I'll improve the steering by reducing the kingpin inclination.
Cheers!
Thank you so much for taking us all along on the process of designing, iterating and building this wonderful trike. Also it's great that you've done most of the work in what looks like the back yard of your flat. It shows that you don't need an expensive workshop to make beautiful and innovative contraptions.
Thank you so much for following and sharing kind words! Indeed, I'm a backyard builder;) Will is stronger than tools!;)
"the next one i will show, will not have any fundamental flaw". famous last words of many :) if that happens, please don't keep your word, people often enjoy the process, no matter the end result. otherwise we might not get even that!
Thank you so much! Maybe it will have the "final" and then the "final 2" and the "final 3";)
In any case, I will keep sharing my projects. I loving doing that.
Cheers!
Nice video! I was quite sad to see the completed trike thinking there would be no more trike build videos, then it broke and you're going to improve it again! I can't wait for the next one :)
Thank you so much! That's super inspiring to do more;) I do want to reach a "product worthy" design version of the trike. But I think I will continue to do videos and I hope they will be of increasingly interesting projects. E.g. I would love to start designing and building an electric mid-drive with gearbox.
Cheers!
Excellent work! Very cool design. I think that type of bike would be great for bike delivery especially in winter conditions.
Thank you! I agree! I'll definitely try to make a good cargo bay for it.
Cheers!
12mm (M grade 8.8 or 10.8, not sure) bolts are used for front axles on my offroad gokart, they take massive impacts without issue.
Ya, I think that steel would hold even at 12 mm.
I love this project . Great job! My suggestions:
For the Axle bore out your part and use a central 8.8 steel bolt. It should be plenty strong and you simplified the Design. From a manufacturing standpoint avoid the sharp corner between different radiuu next time. Putting a slight radius around the circumference will reduce shearing stress at this point immensely .
Keep on inspiring!
Thank you!
I'm having all this trouble designing the axle because I love these Lefty hubs;)
Definitely need to reduce the sharpness of the transitions!
Keep on inspiring you too!
What an awesome trike build! Yes you should absolutely switch the material of the axles to steel. Aluminum never has an infinite fatigue life, whereas steel can. So under repeated loads, like you would expect in an axle, the aluminum will always eventually fail. Even if you increase the diameter where it joins into the knuckle, it will still eventually fail. In an axle that has that large of a diameter you could likely make it out of hollow steel without losing too much strength compared to solid steel. So you could save a little bit of weight there. But there is probably math you should do before you start hollowing out the axles lol. Also I would suggest making the knuckle out of steel as well. It will receive the force from the axle and also eventually fail, if it is made from aluminum.
Thank you so much!
I'll make the next axle out of steel for sure! The knuckle I'm still not sure as it will be totally redesigned.
Cheers!
Weer heerlijk om naar te kijken. Ik vind jouw open source benadering fantastisch
Bedankt!
More brilliant work, this is starting to look super clean and I'm excited to start my own!
Thank you so much and good luck with your build!
Steel axles most definitely. Aluminium fatigues very easily. I'm amazed at how well the trike handles the off road stuff.
@@Alan_Hans__ absolutely, steel it is next time;) and ya, off-road it handles very well. Feels safer than a bike even.
Great design, i hope this will become popular !
Thank you!
I love this series. I wanted to build my own after seeing other prototypes on TH-cam but I lack the skills. I would have loved one of these to take my children for rides when they were young. I did pull them in a trailer which they loved but this would have been so much better. Good luck with the remaining objectives.
Thank you so much! Indeed riding a self-made vehicle is super rewarding. And it sounds like you had a lot of fun with your kids and the trailer as well;) Nice to read about it;)
Cheers!
You made such an incredible job Pedro! I'm so impressed!
Thank yo so much! That's very kind;)
Axles should be mounted on standard M16 or something like that screw. This is such a simple part and important component - it should be easly replacable and made of hardened steel - just like a solid bolt.
Absolutely. Scratching aluminium as material for for axles;)
A steel axle sounds like a good idea. It won’t add much weight.
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, to mitigate tilting problem you need much more than swapping the ball joint. This effect will simply appear at bit greater angles, but the inner wheel will still bear most of the weight in the turn.
Instead you have to rework linkage for change in camber angle through the suspension travel just like you fixed toe angle change due to change in travel. That will solve third problem as well. And - maybe even more importantly - decouple suspension, adding second damper.
Thank you for the tips! Indeed, I intend to have a bigger inclination limit but I will keep the strain on the inner wheel. But I think that's alright.
Cheers!
Have you had any thoughts about doing the rear wheels in the same way? I'm keen to try a small electric car using motorcycle wheels (small ones, like off a 80cc motorcross bike). I think this is the future of transport.
Ya, the only difference in the rear wheels is that you have to consider traction. So, you'll need a different hub design.
Hi Pedro, as always thanks for posting and being a source of inspiration. I'm trying to finish the front suspension, I also have a problem with the ball joints limiting the tilting. But i dont know how bad is it until i can ride it. Still have to do the steering and some other things,this video couldn't come up at a better time. I feel indebted to you since i got so much from your channel.
Thank you so much for watching and writing such kind words;) I'm happy that the videos are helpful!
If you cut and weld an angle in the borrom arms you would gain clearance for the ball joint. Common on offrod quads I think.
Thank you. Indeed, I think there is a possibility to add more range by shaping the wishbone. Though, being a tilting system, I think it may still not be enough. I'm thinking of using the same type of ball joint that I used on the frame side oriented vertically and use spacers to have more steering angle.
Cheers!
I think it's amazing. The only improvement I could think of would be making the inside turning wheel turn at a sharper angle than the outside wheel.
Thank you! The inside wheel does turn more complying with the Ackerman geometries. This is accomplished with the position where the steering arm fasten to the bracket.
Cheers!
I love the bike you made!
Could you show us how does the front suspension works? Like with more weight on it. The offroad videos were a bit shaky 😁, maybe a stationary suspension compression test? I come from the mtb world and our roads need a good suspension.
Thank you!
Absolutely. I want to do tests with cargo but I will redesign and rebuild first. I'm also considering buying an action camera to improve the onboard videos.
Cheers!
What a fantastic Journey. Great Series so far!
Thank you so much for the inspiring comment;)
Beautiful work💪. Sure someone will pedant "aluminium is proper" but in this context, that's just the way it is. It's a big frame. Weight is king. Unless it's an axle 😜 ...Titanium's nice 😉
Only tiny thing to suggest that you're not already doing: maybe put a gaiter on the steering cable exit to reduce water ingress long term. VBrake rubber gaiters might work....
Thank you! Hehe, yes, I know how controversial it can get the "steel vs aluminium" discussion. But 32 kg vs 50 kg does settle it for me. And the fact that the high and motorcycles and cars are made of aluminium.
Unless it's an axle;) Totally agreed!
Good tip on the rubber protections for the cables, thanks!
Expect Aluminum to fail when stressed.
Also expect failure at sharp transitions. Use at least .050" radius.
Absolutely. Two mistakes - aluminium axle and sharp transitions.
Thanks!
Well done on the improvements.. It performs very well. Some small refinements coming. A small radius where the axle was turned down to form the stub, will help stop a crack forming even in steel. (Remember the DC10 aircraft dropping their engines? This was the cause of their bolts failing.)
Thank you! I cannot belive I built it like that. But I would expect aircraft engineers to know better;)
Nice update!
I've been using 20mm steel axles on my trike, welded to 3mm steel plate as base of the spindle. The axel is working well, colud probably be quite a bit thinner, hollow or both, but I would say it's a good idea to leave alu for the axles.
I'm not sure you saw my construction of spindle on reddit, but it might be part of the solution to get the kingpin angle steeper by putting the lower balljoint below the discbrake and further out. Maybe even get also the upper balljoint above the disc might be a good idea to make it even steeper. I guess there is no real need for the self stabelizing functions this angle provides on a tiliting vehicle. My dream would be to have "umbrella" shaped wheels though to be able to make this line vertical, but harder to find such wheels.
Regarding the turning radius, I have the same problem that I would like to make it quite a bit thighter. I', also having the same problem that the steering angle of the inner wheel is still to small when the steering bar aligns with the 2 turning points of the spindle. I don't have a good idea how to make this better but I don't think that you're idea of moving the joint of the steering arm forward will help much. Imagine that the steeringbar just consists of 1 piece going from one spindle directly to the other. Then you'll still have about the same max angle of the when when the steeringbar and the 2 turning points of the spindle aligns.
Hey, thank you so much for sharing those design thoughts. Super interesting! I did not see your design in Reddit. Would you like to publish in this forum? www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/.
I believe you sent me an email with pictures of your build right? That was cool! But in Reddit I think it's easier to discuss.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Yes. you're right, had not shared those pics on reddit but now I have.
Hope it could give you some inspiration.
@@linus-IO nice thanks! I already put some questions;) hehe, love these discussions.
I haven't look at the design yet but I would make the axle from steel.
The aluminium axle is quite an obvious mistake indeed. Steel it is! Or maybe titanium ;)
Mijn suggestie zou zijn om voor de assen een hogere kwaliteit aluminium te gebruiken ter voorkoming van corrosie tussen de onderdelen
Ah, goed bedacht. Aluminium reageert op staal...
Brilliant. I hope to see this out on the road.
Thank you! Me too;)
I would suggest using a single tie-rod to connect both wheels to each other and a second one to connect the wheels to the steering yoke
cant... the way the swingarms move means those pivots change distance depending on where in the travel they are. its going to be constantly varying from toe in to toe out...
Thank you for the suggestion! I haven't made that because with the tilting mechanism it makes it hard to connect both like that because there's the frame in the middle.
@@paradiselost9946 hmm, I didn't think about that. My main concern to connecting both wheels to each other was the frame being in the middle when tilting.
This is very impressive progress. I really like your steering geometry improvements and I’m excited to see the next generation.
I do have a couple ideas to improve your knuckle and spindle parts.
Where there is a change in cross section on the spindle, you should add a radius or fillet if possible. This is especially important where the reaction caused by the wheel is high, at the joint with the knuckle.
I like your idea to keep the larger diameter spindle rather than turning it down to a smaller diameter. If you do this, you could simply increase the bore size of the knuckle where the spindle is inserted. The spindle diameter may exceed the thickness of the knuckle, but this is okay.
When you insert the spindle into the knuckle, it will protrude on both sides and can be welded in. The advantage to doing this you would have a lot of welding length for a strong connection.
Another alternative would be making the knuckle and spindle in one piece. If you have access to a milling machine this can be done easily with a boring head. If not, a four jaw lathe chuck can be used, especially if you have a live center to support the spindle.
Best of luck with further development. I can’t wait to see more on this.
Thank you so much!
1) Absolutely. Changing the radius like I did is just wrong.
2) I agree. I do have a completely different knuckle design in mind because I'll change the ball joints to increase the amount of lean and also to decrease the kingpin angle so I'll have an axle diameter > 12 mm.
3) Right, I only welded on one side but if I have welded on the other it would have been much better...
4) A knuckle and spindle in one piece does sound like an awesome part! Though splitting makes it easier to make (less nice though).
Again, thank you for the suggestions and kind words;)
Cheers!
Scherpe overgang in de as kan ook een probleem zijn.
Als ik jou was zou ik de buitendiameter van de as 22mm maken (of wat de grootste diameter is), de as van een geschikte staal soort maken en hol maken.
I think that's absolutely what I'll do - steel, hollow, smooth transitions. Thanks!
you've invented a new sport ..... mountain triking. I think it will catch on eventually. That is one very challenging design problem you have going there where tilting and steering interact and end of travel comes into play. Great effort. Great crash. Great job shrugging it off and I can't wait to see what you come up with next video.
Trikes are already a popular (if not the only reasonable) option for paraplegic MTBers. My recommendation is to have a look at what Bowhead make. Crazy expensive, yes, but not that much more than top of the range legacy E-MTB are
@@feedbackzaloop Bowhead are incredible! I hope mine will be half as good as those one day.
Thanks Brian! I hope I invented, at least, a cargo vehicle to support on MTB riding;)
Cheers!
Yes , steel for axle. 12mm minimum. Bigger depending on the load you want to carry
Cheers
Absolutely. I'll do steel next time for sure.
Cheers;)
To fix point 1 just add a bend in the lower control arm. So that the ball joint can travel further
Thanks! Indeed I have considered changing the shape o f the lower arm but I think it will not be enough. I'm considering doing a study to find how much tilt is needed before going into my next design.
ALU axles were a brave choice in the first place! DIN10 axles though methinks ;)
Yes, brave is the nice way to put it;)
Steel axles , a small compromise. I think your machine is brilliant and I would definitely buy one if I could
Thank you so much!
Fui direto a "Riding" e Fantastica construção e dinâmica, Pedro!!! Abração! Antonio
Viva Antonio! Riding também é a minha parte preferida:) Abraço!
steel axles would be great except galvanic corrosion, I don´t know if there is space for coating to separate them from contact, so consider, btw. best trike I saw anyone made, because yours is tilting, I love it, enjoy it
Thank you so much! Indeed, I have to consider corrosion. Maybe stainless.
Cheers!
Awesome project!
I think you could make bent arms (U-shape) so the ball joints meet the knuckles at more open angle.
Thank you! And good point, I considered changing the shape of the arms to have more tilting range but I still think it will not be enough so I'm considering changing the type of connection to alow more range.
Cheers!
Waaw, that is nice !
Just one advice before I finish your awesome (as usual) video, in order not to forget. I am not a professional TIG welder (not yet I hope) but it appears quite obvious that you should have less tungsten stick length out, unless you waste much on gas flow. Even on inner corner you might be able to have less stick out. And it is recommended not to move your torch immediately after your weld, to let both your weld and your tungsten under argon protection against oxydation. But my be it is not so relevant when welding aluminium, i am just recommending what I learnt;
I love this kind of advice! I can't imagine how many little things I've learned on YT comments such as yours. Thank you so much!
Fantastic to see the evolution. You certainly have more experience than me, however since a few failures I've developed a nagging fear of metal fatigue in aluminum. I'd probably want to consider steel. But, then we have the potential for galvanic corrosion. There's no way that joint won't have an electrical connection as well as electrolyte (road salt etc.). So I'd be interested in hearing what you think. I'm starting my builds with a bike trailer (non tilting 😂) but would like to someday build a recumbent trike ❤
Thank you so much!
This vehicle weighs 32 kg compared to my last one made of steel at almost 50 kg. This is a big difference for seeming the same vehicle.
Most modern motorcycles are made of aluminium and more and more cars chassis are being made of aluminium so I think aluminium is definitely better if you're doing it right. I'm not claiming that I'm doing it right but I want to be working to one day have the best vehicle possible and I think that's with aluminium and not steel.
Cheers!
1. Aluminum is fine for the axles. Just make the connection at the same size as the larger hub bearing. Taper the axle as well. There’s a reason Canondale does this.
2. You’re wanting to produce a cargo bike, not just a tricycle, so make sure you’re doing the tests with varying cargo loads. How does the front suspension perform when it’s at a higher pressure to account for a payload? How will the vehicle handle when it is calibrated for a payload but is currently empty? Can this performance be improved by using a lock out in one of the travel modes (loaded vs unloaded).
Hi, I agree that the axles can be made out of aluminium with a better design. Though, I think I'll make them out of steel next time to compensate for design errors.
Regarding the tests with loads - totally agree.
Cheers!
Failure is the best part of anything you create and operate. What aluminum alloy did you utilize for the axles? The engineer in me is confident aluminum can be used with minimal challenges. The realist in me says move to steel, and spend the saved time modeling the geometry. I would still increase the diameter as much as is practical.
I should have some free time this weekend. I'll download your drawing and see what kind of solutions I can produce.
Absolutely. One learns so much with failure. I don't even know what aluminium alloy I used. It was whatever the workshop where I rented the Lathe had (they also sell material). The next one will be made will all the considerations for sure. And probably steel to reduce risk.
Sounds good on working with the drawing! If you want to share stuff and discuss and suggest creating a thread on this sub that I created (for this type of occasion): www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/.
Cheers!
Go for steel on the axles, also pretension with enough torque to ensure increased fatigue. My guesstimate is that the aluminium axles failed due to fatigue rather than actual stress
Absolutely! I won't use aluminium for axles again. Cheers!
Great work ! Thanks a lot for sharing :)
Thank you! You are welcome;)
Great progress. It is good to see the performance improvements. One thing I was wondering about your testing, how is it with a cargo load?
I don't have the time right now, but I am very interested in using your design in my own build. Thank you for putting out your work for others to use.
Thank you! I was going to make the box for cargo to test it but the axle broke so now I'll redesign and build again and then do the tests with cargo. Cheers!
YT just recommended this to me and I'm glad I'm here!
Your design reminds me a bit of the design Johansson (part of Pierer NewMobility now) uses on its Oscar S and Oscar M cargo bikes. They also have a double wishbone design with a single damper between both sides.
When the damper, and especially it's rebound, is set up properly, the Oscar M (which I have) is *very* stable going fast. Going downhill, I've reached speeds of 50-60kph with it!
It's also capable to do some limited offroading. I've taken my Oscar M to places no cargo bike has ever been before (and probably never will again, lol).
Johansson has some videos of the handling online, if you're interested.
If you're interested and are still looking for some inspiration for your design, I could also film some video of the Oscar M suspension at work (I have some action cameras that should provide good footage).
Also, in a video about different kinds of steering for recumbent trikes (non cargo), Utah Trikes also mentioned the Ackermann geometry. My Azub recumbent trike also turns the corner inner wheel more than the outer wheel and it feels very stable. I can also provide footage/images of how they've done their steering. It's basically a parallelogram steering as well using rods as linkage.
I already subscribed just now. I'm very interested in what you do next and how you solve the outstanding problems!
If you're looking for a new project soon, I'd be very interested in how you'd approach the build of a recumbent trike with suspension ;D
Oh, thank you so much!
The Oscar trike sure look cool! Before even going to the front, I like how they mounted the drive unit with simple brackets instead of a more complicated wrap around.
The wheels are super cool!
I like the simplicity of the tubing.
And finally the tilting mechanism looks great. I will watch a few more of their videos.
I haven't seen how much the vehicle can lean. Do you know? And is it enough to you?
Furthermore, if you like to share some videos of details that would be lovely. In this case, I would suggest posting here: www.reddit.com/r/VehicleEngineering/. I created this sub due to this very reason ;).
Again, thank you for your kind words. And so nice that you also had the idea of offroading with cargo vehicles;)
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves The Oscar has bump stops made out of rubber that limit the leaning. The advantage is, that you don't have a hard limit that might unsettle the bike but it kinda softly stops you from leaning more. I actually took out a spacer nut because the lean wasn't enough for me and it's still stable ;)
I'll try and set up a few videos showcasing the suspension. It'll take a few days though because it takes some time to get the right lighting outside for a proper quality video. I'll post the video on the subreddit when I've had the chance ;)
@@wullxz that's good information, thank you! No pressure on the videos. If you ever feel like doing it, I'd love to watch, of course;)
Awesome video like usual!! Are these M8/M10 ball joints? I've been looking for one for a while, wuold you be able to tell me where you got it? Thanks!
Thank you so much! The wishbones frame side ball joints are M12. I got them from Amazon: www.amazon.nl/-/en/gp/product/B0BB94X5PQ/?th=1.
Cheers!
Some trikes have a locking mechanism to prevent the bike from leaning when going slowly or when parked. Have you found need for this type of mechanism?
Está brutal Pedro!
Obrigado!
Lots of streets in Amsterdam feel like offroad riding.
Hehe, true;)
At 7:05 the headset doesn't seem to sit in the frame properly?
Anyways, cool project and videos, thanks!
Good catch! When I welded the tube, I melted some of it so the cup stays a bit out. But the whole headset keeps it in place so it's working even though with poor construction wuality.
Cheers!
I think this would be a great Kickstarter project for tinkerers. You could provide backers with a more detailled build guide and the custom parts (e.g. CNC aluminum parts) and get a small profit for the time you invested into the development
Absolutely! I want to reach a design and build that it's so good that it becomes my main vehicle. Then I will try to monetize this project a bit by selling components and maybe the drawings as well.
Cheers!
Regarding axles, have a look at a video on my channel, "replacing the bearings on a 8freight cargo bike bootsowen" (search) the bike is a 2 wheel cargo bike with single sided axles front and rear. the axles are steel into aluminium and are 12mm tapering to 10mm, much smaller than yours. I only have one front wheel so the loading is effectively doubled in my bikes axle compared to yours. Regarding where your axle broke in service: where you go from one turned diameter to another in your axle design it is important to have a radius and not a sharp step in the turning, as stresses will tend to be much higher, but putting a radius in will lessen the point stresses in the material.
Oh, I didn't know you have a channel. Super cool stuff there! And that cargo bike is so interesting. I never saw these before.
You're absolutely on the changes of radius. I always mind these on my 3D prints but first lathe project and I forgot something fundamental. Well, next time I'll do a better design and it will probably made of steel.
Re the 30 degrees angle of the ball joint. Would a simple fix be to modify the bottom control arm with a bend before it attaches. so that when it fits onto the stub axle , it’s closer to a 90 degree?
I’m also wondering about the angle of the steering rods (tie rods). I wonder what would happen if they are closer to 90 degrees to the frame? Hard to explain without a drawing.
I agree with you that I would be able to increase the lean by changing the shape of the lower arm. Though, I still think that not enough. It's a great point that I may have to change the connections of the steering rods!
Very good improvement have you think how could other benifit from your work in there DiY trike
Thank you! You have a good point - In my opinion, how others can benefit is by learning the bits of lessons that I share. Just like I watch many videos from other creators and take many lessons.
Also, I'm sharing the drawings. Hundreds of hours of work on those. Someone interested in making a build can get started from those drawings and getting it done faster and easier.
Do you have other suggestions?
Cheers;)
Great stuff!
Thank you!
Lets hope the tadpole trike designed aptera has adopted some of your designs
Thanks for sharing your project with everyone. At 14:14 .. I noticed your damaged left thumb. Something that everyone should learn about this. When you hit your finger like this .. stop what you are doing .. and with the other hand .. wrap around the damaged area .. with pressure and at the same time .. begin to hyperventilate .. which increases the oxygen in your blood and improves circulation. You want to breathe fast until you notice that you are feeling dizzy .. then slow down your breathing .. to maintain the dizziness .. and keep pressure on your finger .. until the pain greatly subsides. Then you can let go .. and while there may be some redness and tenderness .. there will usually be no blackened fingernail. Remember .. we are told to elevate a damage limb to keep the tissues from swelling. The swelling has the effect of drowning your damaged cells as they release fluid .. slowing oxygen transfer. By applying pressure directly on the damage area .. you keep the tissues from blowing up and capillaries from releasing blood. In a very few minutes of breathing fresh oxygen .. your cells will have a chance to repair. If you have broken a bone .. it will take a while to mend .. but the tissues around the bone will be in much better shape. I learned this from a doctor .. and have experienced it several times .. others too. ALL the BEST!!
Hello and thank you so much! It's very kind of you to notice that my thumb got hurt and share all that precious advice. I got hurt by doing something quite stupid - holding something millimeters from where I'm hammering very hard. I hope I never do this again but if I do I'll keep your advice in mind.
Cheers! All the best to you!
@@pedro-neves I have worked in the hospital ER and on an ambulance .. but never was trained to do what I shared with you. In 1980 I learned this from a visiting doctor .. didn't know what to think about it .. but decided to try it out next time I got hurt like that .. I was amazed. 🙂
@@MerwinARTist, thank you for your service! And yes, many times, one learns randomly in life some very important things that jobs don't teach. The school of life;)
wooo
I previously mentioned my doubts about the cable steering, but I'm no glad to hear that it seems to work that well! Did you ever retension it during your tests now?
The problem that I had with tension was the cables slipping (in the main head tube they are pressed with bolts) so I used washers with a rough surface instead of smooth and tightened the bolts hard and never had to tension again.
@@pedro-neves Thanks a lot for documenting all your findings!
@@feudiable my pleasure! Thank you for inspiring with your kind words.
Very good project but one thing if add some basket
Thank you! I will add a basket for sure;)
Cheers!
On the bush trail, the vehicle seems difficult to control. It seems to want to spear off the path. The tilting will steer it as well as the steering mechanism. A standard bike when titling doesn’t need much actual steering. Most is done by the tilt. Do you think the rider will get used to this, or is your steering too sensitive. I like the variable steering idea from the other guy!
Great points! Indeed there's not much steering in a bike. Though, I think that a cargo bike will have more steering than a bike because the vehicle being long it needs more steering to react. There is still one geometry aspect that I will consider in my next build - rake. I think I can make it more stable by plating with it.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves Would you be interested in putting a datalogger on a standard bike, and measure the lean, speed and steering angle on it? I went for a ride today and looked at how much the steering wheel moves. Not much. I'd love to see figures (surely some PHD student has done this?). Not sure if it's your interest. Ultimately, if a leaner is going to work like a normal bike, it has to tilt like a normal bike, and speed, lean and steering angle are the parameters. And perhaps a 'fly by wire' system, is the best way to make this work. Complex, but fun? Yes? No? Thoughts?
@@andrewmclean1239 Andrew, I thought of this idea before and I think it makes a lot of sense. As a control, probably best to test with a bike and a cargo bike and compare speed, turn and lean as you said. I'll look for some papers about it but if I can't find it may be a good project for me to share:).
@ that would be something else! If there is anything I can help with let me know. I’d try the elliptical idea first but imagine building the cybertruck steering for tadpoles!!
@ hehe, then we'd have an excuse to call it cyber trike ;)
Muito legal o seu projeto!
Desenvolvi no Brasil um triciclo elétrico com cabine, estilo velomobile chamado treeciclo elétrico.
Obrigado! Se tiver um link para o seu projeto, por favor partilhe!
Actually steel and aluminium have very similar strength to weight ratio. So either can be built low weight. Steel is much more resistant to fatigue fractures.
Axle should be made of steel for sure!
Go with steel axles. But then you have a problem with steel + aluminum where the axle ties into the triangular part. So make both out of steel.
Thanks for the tip! Ya, indeed changing the axle to steel creates more considerations such as corrosion and joining steel with aluminium.
Absolutely steel axels and a high grade alloy steel.
Agree;)
Díd you think using lefty hubs in front wheels?
That's what I'm using. They're great!
Describe a turn not as an angle but as a radius. There are 90º turns that are sharp and 90º turns that are not sharp. The critical question is the radius of the turn.
Thank you! Correct! What's the point of being 90 degree if I make it wide... Thank you for correcting me on this. And for taking the trouble to do it. In return, I will state it correctly next time;)
Cheers!
Bad Obsession Motorsport has good explanation of that. In project binky
Oh, nice channel, thanks!
Best not to change the diameter of the axis without rounding ( stress concentration)
Right! That was a mistake too! I always think of that when 3D printing but for some reason, on my first lathe project, I forgot;(
Cheers!
The steering seems very soft, easily crazy. Maybe install a damping system on this steering
Ya, I considered a damping system before. I found it a bit complicated due to the tilting mechanism but I agree that it may be a good idea!
You may not need to go to steel.. 7000 series aluminum might be enough to solve your strength problem along with increasing that diameter.
I agree with you. Mostly on the "may" part;) I think I'll just go to steel to be sure;)
Cheers!
@ keep up the amazing work! I’m cheering for you.
@@ucdwino thank you so much!
One feature of a bicycle is the ability to traverse an obstacle like a sidewalk stone by lifting the front wheel, swiftly (without descending from the bike - as well as driving down stairs).
It seems to me a major drawback of cargo- and tricycle designs to loose that feature as sometimes obstacles can be overlooked (like a pothole filled with water in pouring rain conditions)...
Hi, I agree but I think this argument can go both sides - In a trike, if you hit a sidewalk or pothole, you will probably not fall off.
Cheers!
How much did the parts cost with Jiga?
Cheers
Hi, this is actually visible when I show the screen and talking about Jiga - 244 USD for those 3 parts.
Cheers!
machtig mooi project
Bedankt!
What if you use cables instead of struts between the steering axle and the wheels?
Hi, I had this suggestion before and I still consider it given that when I increase the tilt, the steering struts ball bearings may not be sufficient anymore.
Cheers!
Definitely make your new axles out of steel so they will last longer than a small test ride for a few days. Also you commented on the aluminum frame being better even though everyone else knows that steel is more durable, you said it was just better to be aluminum. Because weight is somehow a major factor on a cargo trike? That makes no sense. If you want your frame to be more durable and your axle axles to be more durable make them out of welded chromoly steel. It does not tear nearly as easily as aluminum. Mini race applications do use aluminum for frames and chassis, but not when durability is desired and weight is a minor concern. That's when everyone switches to steel or something better and far more expensive.
I do love and appreciate your project trike! And the wealth of valuable information you are sharing with all of us! Keep going!
@@SK-wf9pu thank you so much for the inspiring words;)
Hi, indeed saying that an aluminium frame is better than steel in absolute terms is a bit too absolute. But, here are my arguments:
- 32 kg vs 50 for "apparently" the same functional frame
- Most modern motorcycle frames are made of aluminium. And they are durable. I don't think BMW is wrong in making their frames of aluminium.
- More and more car chassis are made of aluminium because they become more worried about mass and efficiency.
I think that the best frame is made of aluminium. I don't claim that my frame is the best but if I'm trying to make the best, it should be made of aluminium.
The axles should definitely not be made of aluminium;) Either steel or titanium the nest ones.
Cheers!
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Always make axles out of steel. Aluminium has a very limited fatigue life. If you don't overstress steel, it should last forever. Same with cranks, crank-shafts, etc.
Absolutely. I'll make the next axles out of steel!
Now you are facing the same problem trike scooter manufacturers face with the max tilting angle
Yes, it's a big one. I'll work on it to try to improve it.
13:05 "Eh Car***!" 😅
que trike legal hein
Obrigado!
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Let me first say i’m a big fan of your videos, but that whole jiga thing is a major issue for me! As someone who is currently building a business myself i’m a big fighter for keeping money inside your local community. Why not build a relationship with a local machine shop?! A quick google search should give give you plenty of options! Also it’s more sustainable not only for the environment! You’re directly undermining your local economy. No wonder prices are higher than ever! You can change this! Imo everyone should quit Amazon temu and all that other BS! Take a look around your local area! Everything is already around you!
Hi, and thank you for being a fan of the videos. In respect to Jiga, let me promise that I only recommend a product or service that I think is great. With Jiga you can choose local suppliers, that's one of the advantages. And it's a marketplace for machine shops to find customers. I even have a friend that saw the video and asked how to become a supplier in Jiga as a way to get more customers.
@ If he is your friend why didn’t he make the parts?! And why aren’t you promoting him?! Was it cheaper to take the deal with the big corporate online Plattform?! Ask your supplier friend how high the fee is, he is charged be be on that Plattform, competing with garbage companies that violate human rights. Ever wonder how stuff from China can be so cheap?!
You have to get other people to ride it because the more You ride it the better you get at riding it and the more difficult it might be for someone that never sat on it.