Part Two: The Not-At-All-Sad History of Libertarian Sea Nations | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part Two: The Not-At-All-Sad History of Libertarian Sea Nations | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined again by David Bell to continue to discuss the history of Libertarian Boat Cities.
Original Air Date: December 3, 2021
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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In Bioshock, one of the survivors actually spells out "The thing all these people who came to Rapture to become titans chose to ignore is that someone still has to scrub the toilets."
I love Bioshock!
Btw: in Atlas Shrugged, John Galt deals with the problem of who will scrub the toilets by inventing free energy generation and robots capable of doing all manual labor. If you need to break the laws of physics to make your stupid story make sense, then it is a dumb idea.
He also had basically infinite natural resources and a community of cut-throat corporate execs who lived in perfect harmony and freely shared all their resources.
That book is wish-fulfillment fantasy in so many ways.
Imo the best part of how BioShock really nails how these Objectivist types really operate is how when Fontain Futuristics started doing a bit better than Ryan Industries, rather than sticking to his free market principles Andrew Ryan seized Fontain's company in a hostile takeover and effectively nationalized it.
@@Healermain15sharing resources is actually communism.
I used to work with a dude who was into seasteading. Shockingly, he was also opposed to BLM and worried about declining birthrates among white people.
did he keep a set of skull calipers in his car?
@@PostingCringeOnMain I don't recall that it ever came up, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Aaaaaannnnnd this is why I call Burning Man, Sunburning White Suburban Man. For extra credit, looks up the proto-Nazi movements in Germany like the Wandervogel movement and their obsessions with food purity. Keep in mind they were kind of mixed up between biology and genetics and things like that so some of them genuinely thought if you ate the wrong stuff you might end up "less white". If you had sex with a nonwhite person then even if you went on to marry a white person, your kids would come out partially non-white...
BLM supports terrorism against Israel so your friend was right to oppose them.
I was about to ask which BLM, but then I realized that it is definitely both.
I stand with Dave in "I am an adult that enjoys lunchables because I never got them as a kid" solidarity ✊
I did get them as a kid, will still eat three Pizza Lunchables for breakfast because I'm 32 and can eat whatever the hell I want.
Lipitor thanks you for your future patronage.
@@SteinarrBattlefist i feel like libertarians could learn a lot from you
I stand in solidarity with Dave declaring dolphins as the most fuckable non-human animal
Adult lunchables are a thing, Oscar Meyer and Hillshire Farms both got 'em and while they're spendy (get them on sale) they're a shitload better than the garbage quality that Lunchables themselves are. I feel like Lunchable ingredients are even more garbage now than they were just a decade or so ago, but I may just be an old man yelling at clouds.
If they were actually serious they'd go look for people who already lived on the water. There's houseboat communities, for example. In Portland there's also a bunch of homeless people who live on the Columbia and Willamette rivers. Worldwide there's plenty of people in developing countries who have entire communities on rafts or boats. Studying how they do things and giving them the resources to actually make homes the best they know how would be a good place to start.
Also entire cultures/groups of people in the pacific who live their entire lives on the ocean 🤷🏼♀️
Even just the folk in the USA who do it for retirement. I have a couple friends who started with a lakeboat for a couple summers, then transitioned to a bigger boat full time, winter in FL summer in ME, then sold their landside house and sailed the Great Loop, and now live full time on the boat in FL, moving up and down the eastern seaboard so the professional musician can tour. Next winter they aren't taking their personal craft to Europe, but my friend is booked to play for a musical cruise from England to Ireland to Norway. They're not rich, but they seem very happy with their lives and all the people they get to meet and the sense of community and people helping people that develops. Someone with a few million in crypto money could quite easily set themselves up for a very relaxed and comfortable existence with a nice boat and the ability to go when and where you wanted.
@@SesshyLover777 I've never heard of that, but it sounds really cool, do you have any examples?
Plus, yocould learn todoit petty cost effective and safe too. Cause that people know the tricks, why cant humble enough pope spearhead that :(
it could help too probably as maybe future stuff.
The whole point of things like Burning Man etc is to not mix with the hoi-polloi. Actual poor people are not at all welcome.
Here's my thing about the Satoshi- the dudebros were quick to complain about over-regulation, but to my mind they were complaining about a pretty reasonable amount of regulation.
Dude- we're gonna buy a ship and we'd like to anchor in Panama and stay there.
Panama- cool, park right over there just one thing, you can't dump your shit there. Gonna have to go out into international water once a month for that.
Dude- but we were hoping to de-register the ship as a ship, if we need to sail it we can't do that.
Panama- Yes, and? Why wouldn't you want your ship to be registered as a ship. They don't sell insurance for 'floating fire hazard'
Insurer- They're totally right about that.
Dude- You're oppressing us!
[Seriously, go read about this debacle. I can't even begin to explain the part where turns out Ehwartowski(sp) was hoping to change over the ship's engines without putting it in drydock, just like while it was moored at the site.]
Yeah, we register cars ecause they can be dang dangerous, i mean its logical , you wnt to do that with bigger boats.
@@marocat4749we register cars mostly so we can tax them to pay for the extremely expensive infrastructure they rely on, as far as I know. We license drivers cause cars are dangerous
Robert hits the nail so hard on the head about libertarian ideology in this one. I think a lot of us followed the same process of personal politics, starting as libertarians until realizing that it’s mostly just people trying to reinvent company towns
Good. Let the private sector replace the government. As long as it’s not Disney.
@@Attmay You just said "As long as it's not Disney" without realizing Disney is the ideal end goal of all capitalists. Even if you get rid of Disney, it wont be long until a company as shitty as them takes their place: because surprise, most capitalists will build a monopoly the instant they know they can get away with it.
This quote floored me: I knew 'investing' was a code word for 'we are going to be spending money on this'."
Just... what... is there some type of investment that does not require spending money or other resources?
Tenochtitlan is evidence that something superficially like seasteading is not just viable, but good enough to build a civilization on. The Mexica, and later Aztec, expanded the city massively over the lake with floating mats that formed their own unique ecological biome, farmed crops on this artificial land (making them the inventors of hydroponics a thousand years before any Europeans thought of it), and generally made the concept of a floating city into a reality.
Unfortunately, "superficially" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Lake Texcoco is a lake, not an ocean. You can't grow crops on the ocean the way they did. You couldn't drink the water of the lake because of all the waste dumped in it, so the city's water needs were met with massive aqueducts from very much landbound fresh water sources. They weren't a floating civilization so much as they were a creatively coastal one. And, of course, the city was administered by a government with a monopoly on force, ruled over by an emperor who their religion claimed to be divine, and became the center of an empire exactly as violent as the one which eventually destroyed them. Seasteaders have the physical shape of an idea which works, but literally zero of the details are borne out in reality.
In other words... Libertarians.
We’ve known for centuries/millennia that “seasteading” is totally viable. Land reclamation has been used almost as long as civilization has existed, and there are communities in places like Southeast Asia who spend the vast majority of their lives living in the water.
The fallacy is imagining that living on the ocean somehow allows you to exist separate from and unfettered by the rest of humankind
@@robertkarnick1286 Yep, and those communities (much like Tenochtitlan) have spent thousands of years perfecting their techniques, learning best practices for living in an objectively dangerous place, and are both willing and ideologically able to countenance dependence upon others in a unified community. Libertarians just want to be fhe monarchs of a kingdom of one where all the labor is done by serfs they never have to see. Because they are all slavers at heart.
Civilizations destroyed by yt statists only make yt statists even more dangerous.
I love that Libertarians think that "seasteading" - a concept based on homesteading - is going to free them from government. They don't seem to realize that the last time people homesteaded, we ended up with the US government.
Also: I just heard the real-life story of a whale who attacked a ship which inspired the novel "Moby Dick". How are these Libertarian crypto-bros going to deal with their floating city being attacked by a whale?
sue the whale for violating the NAP
A whale attacking a 500 ton wooden sailing vessel is a bit more worrisome than a whale attacking a 100,000 ton steel cruise ship.
Or a colony of elephant seals deciding that the floating nerd haven is prime real estate.
Or pirates. Gathering a bunch of resources, putting them in one place, but not raising an army just seems like foreign aid to Somalia or w/e with extra steps
@@glarnboudin4462 That would be hilarious. I mean, even sea lions and fur seals would be a problem for these jokers.
I was not expecting to be reminded of Mr. Hands when I clicked on this episode...
What exactly is the plan to prevent lightning supposed to be? Are they like, building a really big cannon to shoot into the sky hoping they hit Zeus?
A DAO that uses advanced blockchain AI technology to decentralise electrical charges in cloud formations, preventing them from minting lightning strikes.
By putting "libertarian" in the title, youtube algos are throwing me ads from patriot labelled doom prepper dipsh*ts.
I think the internet will soon be useless.
It's pretty useless already.
"Kids love unregulated wildfires" from the last ep made me think of my trip to woodstock 99 and seeing half the place burning while trying to take a picture. Now it gets a shoutout for being the WWII of festivals. Way more memorable, but for all the wrong reasons. 😂
It's not taxes, it's a communally funded eating and cooking space that you can further fund through rental. IT'S NOT TAXES. 😩
That's just taxes with extra steps!
Instead of charging you taxes, we'll just take a little bit off the top of what you make so that we can afford to keep running! It's not taxes!
It says a lot about these people that it takes them decades of failed fundraising projects before they even touch water to figure out any of the actual, real challenges of building on water and conclude "Wow, it's actually harder than it is in my headcanon."
Also says a lot about them that they're willing to burn billions on a boat to save... how much in taxes exactly? Their millions or billions aren't enough for them, because even 10 cents in taxes would be too much because PRINCIPLE. Meanwhile, people are fully capable of happiness on 1500€ a month. So the conclusion is: Those millionaires *choose* to be unhappy and deranged.
Yeah, when feasable way would be,listen to the people who did that , ther are communities and iniginous and who do that, and did that . And probaby figured out a fair bit of kinks.
As always liberterians trying to reinvent the wheel instead trying to look up if anyone did do it and stay basic first?! And want to not make it functional but be "inventive and know better" . Its pretty cool,if it werent for the trying to reinvent the wheel mindset.
And not thinking, how the hell do youmake an ok society there.
There is no virtue in poverty, but you can have so much money that it become a poison.
I imagine these smooth sea-stead designs as looking like cigarette yellow Super Nintendos in just a few years on the ocean.
I think they're just making them look like giant fiberglass sail boats.
I’m glad I’m not the only person who remembers and appreciated Seaquest DSV. 🐬 Mark Hamill also had a weird role as a blind alien. 👽
I am so heartened by Robert's consistent pro-cetacean personhood positions. It's great.
Perhaps a "teal alert"? 9:44
Dolphin sex was the wildest part of Bioshock.
David saying he is getting Lunchables delivered has the same energy as those people who went into Mar 15 2020 thinking "Two weeks to flatten the curve"
The open was weird because some of those sequels really were the best. Aliens, Star Trek 2, Empire Strikes Back, Back To the Future 2, Terminator 2, all arguably the high water marks for their given franchises.
Evans throwing ALIENS in was worth a flogging, yes.
Matrix Reloaded kicks all sorts of bottom, too.
don't forget Shrek 2.
I also think they tried to sort of walk away from the caricature and that's why they kept the Ferengi. I don't know it worked exactly but I can say that they seem less like obviously antisemitic caricatures than say the goblins from Harry Potter at least to me as a kid.
For the amount of money thats went into "the freedom ship" they coulda just bought an aircraft carrier
An aircraft carrier is the real Freedom Ship anyway
29:55 Absolutely unbelievable to hear a Gleaming The Cube reference
I just got 50% more in love with this podcast due to the Cory Doctorow reference.
Why is this the only place I hear about Mr. Hands anymore and why do I have to keep remembering it
I hereby colonize this episode in the name of quiply.
don't make me send the mercenaries to your rusty, abandoned sea platform
@@bln8285 You wouldn't dare. I'll sue you! I'll sue you in private court! Then you'll be sorry!
If you agree, of course.
Don't worry, David. Even the kids know that touch screen controls in cars is just a bad idea.
Yeah, I'm pretty young and even I want analog controls on the giant machine which will kill me and several bystanders if the controls mis-input
Here's the thing touchscreens are awesome at: Drawing, writing, typing, and other things which you can alter and edit in a freeform way
Here's the thing analog controls are awesome at: Being very reliable at *not failing or ever having a mis-input*
@@cogsworther1639 yeah, you need to look at a touch screen to use it, which is obviously problematic to do while guiding a ton or two of steel and plastic down the road. I like being able to operate my radio by feel alone.
"C'mon, man... Just skateboard to Rock music..."
Put that on a T-shirt.
I seriously paused the video when he said that and just sat there and thought about being a teenager and riding my skateboard while listening to rock music for eight hours straight every day. Happiest I ever have been.
I am a bit butthurt that you did a twoparter on sea nations and completely shunned the one done off the shores of my glorious country of Pasta and Bunga Bunga parties that ended up with an amphibious assault by carabinieri. Still love you.
I'm a bit disappointed you didn't talk about the Republic of Rose Island, an attempt at seasteading in the Adriatic sea off the coast of Italy from 1968 to 1969. Or maybe you did and I just missed it because all of these stories are basically the same thing.
90% sure that dolphin consent is the motivating factor for building AIs that can communicate with animals
Of course you'd bring up giraffes and dolphins. Quite possibly the most rapey animals on land and sea. At that point you don't have to worry about consent because they aren't asking!
I'm having flashbacks to when I volunteered at a zoo as a teen, and one of the male kestrels fell in love with my hand. Definitely non-consensual on my part, but he was enthused!
A dolphin can definitely consent, but actually fucking one is a real bad idea because their cocks are the size of a 2-litre pop bottle and fully prehensile
I didn't know Giraffes were such monsters.
Where is the dolphins horror movie for real :O
God, SeaQuest. I miss that ridiculous show so much.
Listening to this episode and Robert’s comments about engineers made me cackle out loud to my cats. It also reminded me of the original version of “The Mosquito Coast.” I really need to read that book again.
It's hilarious how many libertarians made their fortunes off the government. "The government needs to spend way less money.....after they pay me."
Relieving urban overcrowding by turning old cruise ships and aircraft carriers into floating apartment complexes actually isn't a terrible idea. I'd want them to be stationary and subject to the laws and oversight of the city they were part of, instead of autonomous libertarian enclaves, but if you could figure out a way to safely and efficiently get commuters on and off the ship every day, and have reliable utilities on the ship, it could really help the housing crisis in a lot of places.
The housing crisis isn't really because there isn't space, though, it's because of lot of market fuckery done by people who want to profit. More investment in affordable housing on the local government level, different zoning laws, more and stricter regulations targeting those who leave homes empty either to manipulate prices or as barely-used vacation homes, better public transit, etc would all address the problems better than ships - which are notoriously hard to maintain - converted into apartment blocks.
I'm surprised neither Robert nor his guest references the many boat peoples that still exist in the Indo-Pacific. They basically are seasteaders, even if they do hug the shore more closely.
The main thing about an "Exclusive Economic Zone" isn't that you can tax, etc., what happens, it's more that that country has exclusive rights to resources in that area, mainly fishing and oil. I believe but I'm not certain oceangoing traffic can pass through though? I know you need permission to enter what is called "territorial waters," which only radiates out 3 miles (the distance you could fire a cannonball at the time the rules were devised).
Launch loops are cool. It's not a sling shot, more a mass driver. Imagine a 100km long track that accelerates your rocket to orbital speed so that instead of hitting the ground it goes into orbit
I feel like "mass driver" is intentionally ambiguous. Is there a reason not to use the term rail gun or maglev launch rail?
It's even weirder than that, and sort of hard to describe. It's not a 'track' per se so much as a sheath around a very fast moving cable. The momentum embodied within the moving cable is what keeps the sheath airborne as the rotor (cable) transfers energy to sheath via its magnetic bearings.
It's a cool idea . . . Of course, if it fails catastrophically it'll tear huge chunks of itself apart.
Seaquest mentioned. Popping bottles.
I know it's just an amusing name but I can't help but picture sentences like "Colin's chin sailed off..." as a sentient piece of someone's face just fucking off to do its own thing. Which is a bit or an ironic mutation for a libertarian.
How can you hate Quark??? He's so great
12:33 To your guest's comment about Giraffes being the most fuckable animal, if you've ever seen the clip of the giraffe licking the fence post you would know that orally at least he's onto something
It's like they all are being represented by Barry Zuckerkorn alongside the Bluths.
One note: French polynesia is not its own country, it's just France.
Omg SeaQuest was my life ahaha
The inhabitants of the cruise ship could cook food on their mining rigs!
I tend to stick with the rules of
-Can communicate
-Is an adult example of the species
-Both parties are able to express and comprehend enthusiastic consent or lack thereof ( if the animal WON'T STOP doing the fuck on you, they don't understand no, thus still sexual assault even if the human rolls with it. This is true in the opposite direction as well, where a human intent on doing an animal ignores all signs of distress because the animal didn't bite or run away. Still abuse because lack of enthusiastic consent. )
Then again I'm in the monster lover community so we have long discussions about this sort of thing XD
I do know there are people who take to the sea for good. Such as Women on Waves, an organization thst helps people get access to healthcare such as birthcontrol and abortions when they live in countries that deem it illegal
Joe could have used the 250,000 paperbacks as land. I'm sure you could grow weed on pulp 😂
Doctor: Jeez, there's this guy with a new STD that came into the clinic today. It was some kind of slow-acting regional hemorrhagic fever, but spread through sex. Like, how does that even happen?
Doctor's PoliSci roommate: ... So you remember last week, when I told you there was a utopian sea-steading community floating by and you should get ready?
What this really is like is when Cartman got off the bus in Mogadishu
They tried to invent college dormitories on water and called themselves pioneers. What losers
If you're unable to see the need to occasionally abandon your prototype seastead to live in a place called Phucket as foreshadowing, you just don't understand story structure.
lmfao
Kinda sucks to think how much money gets thrown at projects like this when they could just, like, donate to charities that are actually doing measurable good. Or even, just pay their taxes and enjoy the benefits of living in a developed nation. I guarantee paying your taxes is gonna be cheaper and easier than buying a cruise ship.
You're always better off trying to fix what you already have than throwing it all away and starting over from scratch. It works for planets, countries, houses and everything else. No matter how bad a government is, you have a better chance changing that government than creating a new country and thinking you'll turn a barren land into a utopia.
seaquest kinda is tng underwater and gained its own identity. So,ok gene eing librterian, saquest is frothe most prt in te genre of star trek?! i think? in the sea. which makes thatweird .in comparison.
Did robert read the series aout that fighting citiesfor recources. Which in te books, clear dystopia.
Dang, the seasteading event sounds amazing and responsible.
Libertarianism: it cannot fail, it has only failed
Woodstock '99 was part 3
No one remembers the previous one in 1994 that was no better or worse than any other festival and was quite good with a killer line up for the time.
@@miguelvelez7221 Woodstock '94 was a big deal for the careers of both Green Day and Primus.
@@lostinthemasses Thing is, my recollection was that there was a good feeling for 1994, with a lot of coverage.
Was it a nostalgia gimmick? Too a large degree, yes. But it delivered on the Woodstock name at least in it being a showcase of a generation's music up to that point.
Where with '99 I don't remember much coverage, and what there was before the fires and riot, wasn't all that enthusiastic.
@@miguelvelez7221 Both were pay-per-view but MTV broadcasted many of the bands live so it got way more coverage. I know bc I watched it live on MTV LOL. '99 was almost entirely PPV and I don't remember much of what MTV broadcast.
Ohhh... the idea of floating cities outside of cities seems like *such* a good idea. I'm honestly surprised that hasn't been proposed over here in Australia. It might *have* to be, considering how badly climate change is nuking our entire interior... take a ferry over to the floating half of Brisbane. That's kinda fucking awesome.
Because it's even more expensive than normal cities.
Wait is "Ultimate Rush" just the inspiration for "Premium Rush"?
EDIT: Listened for one more minute and the answer is "legally* "No".
1:33:06 here is the thing, it is all about I I I get mine and fuck you, I have to work with a libertarian and the few times I have tried to talk to him about that it always boils down to all that matters is what I get and everyone else can die for all I care. He hates any social programs that help people, calls every homeless person he sees lazy or scammers, and I have to just deal with it on every work trip we go on.
Going to opine on the Ferengi for a bit.
I personally believe that the Jewish comparisons are overblown because like your guest said, whenever you have a greed-driven race or class in a sci-fi or fantasy setting, the Jewish comparisons are inevitable because bigots believe that Jewish are inherently greedy. It's not unlike how you can't talk about the perils of how banking affects the economy because bigots use "banker" as a dogwhistle for Jewish people, causing this razor-thin rhetorical line between socialist and fascist ideology. It's really hard to say "There is a class of people who have a stranglehold on the economy and culture and it is killing us," without someone else adding "...and they're the JEWS!" if even inside their own heads, no matter how true the original statement is.
Also, originally the Ferengi were supposed to have gigantic dongs which definitely not a Jewish caricature. Also, goddammit, Roddenberry...
Anyway, they kind of stuck around because I do feel like they wanted to make a greed-based foil for the Federation who literally abolished money, but no one really took them seriously because for all of its real life destructiveness, greed is fundamentally silly and degrading for the person who experiences it, and so greed-based villains tend to become jokes after a while because of that. It probably says more about our own society in how we don't see greed as an existential threat as opposed to some other negative traits of humanity.
31:57
I think in a discussion about human-dolphin sex, It maybe isn't the people that would need to go to consent training
For a moment I thought Robert was about to say that DS9 was "one of [his] least favorite" star treks and i was ready to unsubscribe
Oh, it's designed like burning man huh? Hmmmm.....
If the mr hands horse was a human it would've been called grooming and drugging a depend.
All of these people sound like the sea word.
So, we have an A and B option. A option is to move industry into space, space, where more literally pops into existence every day.
Or option B keep it all here on Earth.
*Please stop idealizing Burning Man!* it's very top-down, very pay-to-play, even the remoteness of the location is expressly to exclude those who don't have a lot of money or have friends with a lot of money. Burning Man bans selling (except for water I think) and there are a lot of bans, they have a DMV ("Department of Mutant Vehicles" lol) and so on. Burning Man has had murders, sexual predators, etc and would have descended into utter chaos and bloodshed if it had not become the friendly dictatorship it is now.
DunningKruger is not a thing.
Libertarian sea cities are a terrible idea.
On a related note, anyone wanna join my communist sky city?
More bashing of any non-communist non-leftist non-statist ideology. Downvoted and flagged.
Wahhhh wahhhhhh
Giraffes. Ten feet of throat.