So in that case the V'ger probe the Klingons found in the beginning of the Motion Picture should be called battle of the Reboot Klingons right? because they look total different from the TOS Klingons.
No the the Klingons profected the refracted transporter beam in order to produce duplicates of their warriors. ..... because why wouldn't you develop that tech after finding a indistinguishable Tom Riker transporter twin of Will Riker? Imagine the speed of ship construction and materials surplus.
When I was in the US Army I work in a CASH (Combat Area Support Hospital). You better believe that we had security in and around the medical areas. The doctors and nurses were happy to have that security because it meant that they didn't need to worry about their safety while they were doing their job.
That blast came from DS 9?! That things operational! All kilngons prepare to retreat. Won't won't get another chance at this! We have no choice general Martok our cruisers can't repel photons of that magnitude!
Gowron also had access to something we don't - damage reports from the undestroyed Klingon ships. Just because something is intact doesn't make it battle-worthy.
Absolutely usually any unit that has taken over 20% casualties is considered in need of refit and resupply before fighting again. If you are on the defense you may have no choice, but to have them fight. If however you are on the offense it is very unlikely most commanders would use that unit without resupply/refit, or attachment of additional forces.
Garak: When the Klingons attacked the station Gul Dukat & I were fighting side by side, and at one point he turned his back on me. I must admit that for a moment he made a very tempting target! Odo: You shoot a man in the back? Garak: Well it's the safest way, isn't it? But then I thought "oh no I can't fight all these Klingons by myself, so I let him live! Odo: And now you regret it? Garak: Oh my deer Constable, before this day is over everyone on this station is going to regret it!
Itd changed alot of key points in history. My guess is Garak didn't want to have to fight off all those Klingons alone if the Starfleet guards got taken out is my guess
He kills Dukat and the history of the Alpha Quadrant drastically changes. He even acknowledged his failure to do so was a source of great remorse.... Of course had that happened, the Dominion probably would have found another way "in" to Cardassia.
"Starfleet is everything that Humanity should strive to be" Maybe But section 31 are the wolves that die in the shadows, so that you can have that fantasy.
Well is it worth the price? That some durty their hands and by that the Federation, so that many may live in peace and harmony? A paradise build on good intentions and lies...is it still a paradise?
In Babylon 5, after the Earthforce attack to seize the station, there would almost always be at least one Minbari Sharlin class warcruiser and often several other League warships guarding the station.
Bajor was NOT a part of the Federation at this point, and it was a Bajorian station. That is something that everyone seems to forget. Bajor allowed, asked, the Federation to run and maintain the station, but never gave up ownership. So the Klingons were warring against a Bajorian asset not the Federation...
It's not like Terra from Warhammer 40k that has enough of a defense fleet to rival entire navies and the moon has enough firepower on it to probably reduce the Death Star to molten slag by itself. Though the Sol System is probably one of the most heavily fortified versions of Earth in Science fiction.
I think you make a valid point about the idea of having a picket on guard duty at DS9. I'm certain it was a budget issue why they didn't want to do it. My guess is they said "If we can't show it in this big battle we're paying for, better to have DS9 the lone warrior standing against the horde" approach. Maybe they figured it would cheapen the idea that DS9 its self was the lone beacon of light standing against the odds trope. I never understoond why they docked the Defiant from the very first time they did this (from a writing perspective. I understand the budget angle). They only really say that the ablative armour had failed during the rescue, and that they lost the cloaking device (which isn't likely going to be their tactic in use anyway). Nothing stated about their shield grid or weapons being destroyed. Even if the Defiant had no armour and no shields, you'd think while fighting for your lives, you'd want it's fire power. It'd still be a target if it was docked on the docking ring. The fight in Ops, while dramatic, was kind of lame. Klingons can always fight, oh, except when they can't. For plot reasons. I liked how during the boarding actions, it was the Bajoran personel that seemed to have the most success fighting the Klingons. Waiting behind the pillars and firing as the Klingons walked past. It's a nice touch of continuity re Bajorans being used to fighting intimidating enemies. Using smart tactics to hold them off. And it keeps the Starfleet NPCs ( :) ) looking appropriately useless (minus the main cast).
Kinda off topic, but regarding the translation of Klingon (or not) depending on the circumstances, I always assumed it was due to some complexity within the language that there was no direct translation (in universe, I am not talking about the real world Klingon dictionaries). Similar to the Pilot's language in Farscape, when they spoke simple words the translations worked fine, but as they got more complex words had multiple underlying meanings and emotions that couldn't be correctly translated. It could even vary based on the speaker's body language and tone, which would fit with the Klingon's overall more savage nature. So when Gowron said 'it's a good day to die' it could have underlying meanings that could indicate death to the enemy, a space battle, and convey his thoughts on the enemy being faced, all which the translators couldn't catch. As a bonus, it explains Robert O'Reilly's crazy eyes as being part of the language :)
A little bit like the Dwarf Language in Warhammer Fantasy right?(Same Words with a Ton of different Meanings highly dependent on the Context). I could immagine they dont spoke "standard klingon" but some Dialect, like when i as a Person from north Germany have a hard Time when communicating with someone from austrian country side. But it would be a huge Coinsedince if Gauron and Martok caming from the same Place at the klingon Empire^^
Gimjibar It think it is more like what the characters hear is not what the audience hears. The characters would hear the original words and the translation at the same time.
There's a line or two in some of the Trek "novel cannon" that has Klingons speaking in a "battle language" aboard starships, which becomes a variant dialect where ship crews use shorter words and grammar to save time when they're fighting. Other than the writers/producers using the Klingon language without translations to ramp up various episodes for "dramatic" effect, this could explain why it wasn't translated properly. (TOS novels "The Final Reflection" and "Dwellers in the Crucible" have examples of this if anyone's interested.)
@@Corbomite_Meatballs Come on guys.......it's a common star trek trope, nothing more. As we can see trek has always been full of silliness and inconsistencies since it's inception, especially in the logic department lol.
This remains one of my favourite DS9 episodes for one reason: It shows why you don't attack space stations. Sure, they look all defenseless, just sitting there hanging in space with no real ability to run should shit go down. But the ability to take and dish out damage on those stationary platforms is second to none.
It’s because starfleet means being in a constant state of denial. We’re not a military organization....yes...yes you are a military organization just one who’s primary mission is exploration. NASA is a purely scientific exploratory organization. Starfleet is a military organization complete with the rank structure. Yes this was all due to Roddenberry being the Uber hippy but still.
I agree with your opinion of starfleet. They went pacifist. The butterfly collectors eventually gained enough footing that they outvoted the warship builders. Riker and Picards attitude says it all when they complained about useless combat training. The brains over brawn comments. The silly fools forgot you needed both. To secure peace, prepare for war. Just because no one was out to get them at that time does not mean a new enemy will not pop up. Edit: forgot to add that you NEED a balance of both to travel the big bad universe.
Klingons beaming into the habitat ring and promenade was probably a far better choice than trying to jump ops or engineering. We all saw how attempting to take a vital and manned area resulted in the boarding party's near immediate obliteration. Beaming into the middle of an unsecured nowhere gives the attackers a fighting chance, and an opportunity to thin the ranks of potential reinforcements before assaulting somewhere that actually matters.
Let's face it they would have beamed in bombs, or smoke, or stun grenades.........anything. The lack of transporter weapons in trek is actually hilarious. Hell why even use photon torpedoes? Just beam nukes right beside enemy vessels. It's one more example of military ignorance that has always followed trek. I mean they have matter to energy conversion tech.......they could literally use energy weapon strikes to power their shields lol.
@@MrBottlecapBill Star Fleet Battles actually had a playable race, the Andromedans, that did exactly that. Armor plating that converted kinetic and thermal energy into a form that could be used to power their TR beams and rail guns
To be fair, that weird inconsistency where the translator translated most words and sentences, but oddly didn't on a few words was something that happened in almost ALL Star Trek series and the films too. DS9 wasn't the only guilty offender. The writers obviously did it for dramatic flourish, but it created an odd incongruity.
that's almost as evil as dropping off a boat full of africans into an unsuspecting country like the judeo-slavers of renaissance-age earth. starfleet has standards
13:24; If I remember correctly there is currently a living clone of Kahless so it may not be the first one, because of this anything the 2nd Kahless may say might also be counted as a famous quote. Also since he is a Klingon he is bound to drink lots and lots of blood wine.
Star Trek Table Top, battle of Ops. GM: Dirk son of Damon is hit for a crit and dies... roll up a new character. Player: I have. He’s Tirk, son of Damon. Dirk’s twin brother. GM: Crit, he’s down. Player: crosses out Tirks name. “Then Birk...”
Got some perfect dialogue Someone:"wheres the bloody fleet at" Sisko:"they pulled the fleet to bajor incase they strike there." Boom,next thing you know I'll be sued by cbs for copy right infringement
About your first question about not having ships there. Probably has something to do with Bajor, and the Federation not being able to guarantee Bajor's security if the Dominion attacks. Bajor at least had to put up a front that they were independent to avoid being annihilated in the inevitable Dominion War. Bajor was also testy about other powers having a military presence in their space during the Dominion War, that also helps back up my point. DS9 had to go at it alone, a constant theme of the series I'd suspend disbelief over the Klingons boarding DS9 action scenes. It was supposed to get across an action/adventure dynamic and a wild, this is a real fight, type of feeling and at the time it did that well I was riveted in my seat, that whole episode was good old swashbuckling flamboyance. Also old sayings tend to fit different situations, that's realistic, no fault there (trying to hard to be snarky). I think there was an element of underestimating DS9's capabilities, I know TV budget was the real cause, but I'd like to have seen the Neg'var more in action, it was seen shooting once and did major damage. Federation only sending 6 ships, is something they tend to do, not to really fight but be a deterrent, as it did in this episode. If they had to fight, that doesn't seem like a guaranteed victory
Oh my god. Kahless has said things that perfectly mirror a specific situation in a specific episode? It took me most of my life to figure that out. Thank you. Now I can understand his sayings in tng, ds9, voyager, enterprise and discovery. I'm so happy...
As for the Klingons I am pretty sure they did not beam torpedoes onto the station because they wanted to capture it intact. Why the Starfleet forces did not do this is beyond me though.
i would beam stun grenades over first - followed by troops. if i was defending i would have independently-powered transport inhibitors at key points, so any boarders had to beam into pre-arranged killing-zones, or turn off some inhibitors during the battle to allow transport into kill-zones to make attackers think they had failed and there was now a weakness to exploit - they would be dead before they could realise it was a trap! a few TR-116 rifles might go a long way too...
7:30 as perfect and infallible as the universal translator seems to be it’s no surprise at all that is could interpret when a being is intending to make a particular statement that is better relayed in their native language. This is the same machine after all that perfectly translates complex notions and entirely alien contextual modifiers in real time, I suspect it’s related to the same tech that knows when someone wants to walk through a door or dramatically monologue in front of a door.
a lot of good points here, but the first bit about "starfleet" outfitting a space station but not sending more ships - starfleet is responsible for allocating vessels, but not the condition of the station. if sisko upgraded the defiant with hull armour and other nice toys, do you think he would've asked starfleets permission to upgrade a bajoran station? or would he just do it? as they say, it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, especially if the foresight to prepare for a fight was vindicated by holding the station in a situation where it would've fallen if not for the 'unregistered' upgrades. kinda hard to reprimand someone for a technicality when they are winning...
except that it is stated that starfleet has upgraded the station. of course if we look at this with a modern look on things then it would make sense to send some ships as well, but if instead we look at this with a futuristic perspective then we would realize that stuff is far cheaper than people. the needed things for the upgrade that can't be replicated would be the anti-matter for the torpedoes, which all combined would probably be about as much as much as a single galaxy class ship (based on explosive power from warp core breaches vs. damage done during the battle). the station's retrofit did more to protect it than a single galaxy class ship. this makes the upgrades cheaper than sending a few ships and more effective at protecting the asset, and they did have ships stationed near enough to get there when they were in trouble. given the size of the federation territory and the time it takes to traverse the territory it does mean that they did have ships nearby to protect the station, but not exclusively to protect it as that was too expensive for the threat they predicted.
This battle definitely needs some extra dialogue to make more sense. "The Detapa Council is secure in a shielded room." "Shields around critical areas are intact. The Klingons are bottled up trying to reach them." "The Defiant just pulled a sick barrel roll!" Also, how many Klingons does Sisko take out with his bare hands? Ben is an absolute badass, Worf should be taking note.
The Defiant was probably docked, and protected by the station's shields. Since the Defiant is just a single ship, it would have been suicide for the Defiant to fight without the protection of the station's shields. There are too many Klingon ships that could fire on the Defiant.
Well I think you answered your own question from the start of the video, why wasn't there a fleet stationed at DS9, well they were probably refitting a large percentage of the fleet limiting available ships that could be stationed in fixed positions. Also keep in mind that Starfleet had always kept a large portion of its fleet exploring for perhaps years at a time, and that portion of it's fleet was heavily skewed towards the newer and more modern ships in the fleet, so recalling most of them even at maximum speed would take at least months, but potentially longer for the ones further out (if they decided to recall them immediately).
I liked how it took the Negh'Var firing directly at the shield generators to bring the shields down. I also think a Galaxy class can go toe to toe with anything the Romulins or Klingons have. Just because it has areas used for holodecks, day care centers, and a hair salon doesn't mean it can't take a pounding and still open a big can of whoopass. The federation has the combined technologies of dozens of space-faring species and are all about developing new technology. The Romulins / Remans and Klingons have undoubtedly stolen some tech through espionage and conquest but have nowhere near as much of a knowledge base to draw upon.
At 4:40 when you mention how the civilian populace was locked behind a guarded door and if the powers goes out they’ll be trapped. I experience a real life situation like that. I used to work at a tv station that upgraded their security locks. One night we had a terrible storm which knocked out the power and locked everyone inside lol it was both hilarious and troublesome
For the klingons staying back watching other battles, just to play devil's advocate, it is possible that this is as a result of their culture, believing that it would be dishonourable to the fighting Klingon to come to his aid, and they should instead let him fight his own battle. Terrible tactics for a boarding party, but still a possibility.
Looking at that battle in Ops, it looks like the Federation forgot about the magic of the shotgun, and that the Klingons never heard the phrase “never bring a knife to a gunfight”.
Well there is some logic to bringing a melee in boarding actions. A disrupter might burn threw a view port or weakened part of the hull. Thus blowing everyone in that room into space.
Ironically, there IS a phaser version that's pretty much a phaser shotgun. Though a real one woulda probably worked just fine. Even our best real world one in the world which would've been ANCIENT by their standards properly modified for heavy combat... 1 dude could clear whole areas of Klingons by himself... can just imagine the looks on their faces... it's like that scene in the first Expendables movie where the guy drives all those soldiers down the hall with that drum fed combat shotgun. Just mowing them down.. while the rest just stare.. but their Klingons on the Promenade and your passing sickbay, odo, Quarks and Ops... the shocked WTF looks from the DS9 cast would be priceless though...
Personally the longer I have lived the lest favorably I looking upon the Federation and by extension Star Fleet. Oh, the Federation is probably the most free civilization in the Alpha Quadrant over all. But even within that it has streaks of authoritarianism, techno-phobia, and even a level of forced cultural dilution.
Defending a Starbase is the same as repelling boarders in FTL; get your people to safety, turn off the gravity, and vent the airlocks. Sure the Klingons would send in another wave, probably in pressure suits, but you'll at least get the first bunch and make the next think twice. Like, oh, I don't know...maybe turn the gravity plates up to 11 maybe. Just a thought.
You have made good points about Starfleet before and after the dominion threat / Borg incursions. You see the Federation and Starfleet as having changed dramatically, and I agree. In early TNG, they are naive pacifist explorers embodied by singing Picard, goofball Data, and culture shock Worf. By this point, they have changed into a galactic superpower with an unbreakable will of steel, as embodied by Sisko, level 20 warrior Worf, emotion chip Data, and Jean-Luc “This far, no farther! I will make them *pay*for what they have done!” Picard. I think that Gowron was simply unaware of this culture change. The Starfleet he expected would invite the Klingons to dinner, call a series of committee meetings, and agree to hand over most of the quadrant in the interest of peace and general fairness. What he got instead was 1000 torpedoes in the face and a relief fleet headed in with intent to fight to the bitter end. Perhaps, for Klingons, that even triggered a feeling of respect.
Based on the actions taken by the Klingon fleet that you've described in this video, I think the Klingons probably wanted to keep the station relatively intact so they could claim it for themselves later on.
I think that they beamed in at odd locations because those are the areas the shields went down. Plus the high casualty rate was something they had in Star Fleet Battles, they were high risk and had a high rate of fatalities.
In all fairness, the Episode where Jake and Bashir are trapped on the planet while the Klingons were attacking ( I forgot the episode name), doesn't happen until later. It's possible Bashir just didn't know that's the Klingons view of the sick and wounded.
Honestly, that proverb makes sense when it's just like, "Pyrrhic victories are a bad idea, y'all." Good advice, considerin how much the Klingons are into glorious last stands.
Deep Space 9 is also an important trading outpost. A defensive fleet would intimidate tradingships Bajor relies upon. Equipping the station with hidden weapons is the only viable option.
The reason why it sometimes doesn't translate is the same reason the doors only open when they know someone wants to go through and why communicators immediately message the person without delay, knowing who the sender wanted to communicate with: IT'S MAKE BELIEVE.
@@LoreReloaded You say still not getting, it's my first video. Eveer. And it's not my job to research, or understand beyond what is presented to me when I see a video. If you're implying this is tongue in cheek good on yah, but it's not apparent for a first time viewer. Or I may still not be getting it.
Furthermore, explaining the absence of a picket fleet could have been done away with 4 lines of dialogue "With all these upgrades, shouldn't we at least have a defensive fleet?" "Arming the station is one thing, having a constant Starfleet presence is another. If Bajor wants to maintain autonomy, the fleet must keep its distance." "How much distance?" "In the event of an invasion, we can expect reinforcements in no less than 8 hours, as per treaty guidelines." Bam
Klingons don't seem to be known for taking prisoners. So the escape pod theory seems not likely. There is a huge Klingon fleet outside the station. Any escape pod isn't going very far. They will be caught immediately.
@Lore Reloaded 04:14 That's the way to the docking ring around the promenade, the non-coms were likely disembarking the station. at least according to what I recall from the Beta canon of the DS9 Technical Manual, this is supported by the fact that they appear to be evacuating based on the amount of luggage they are carrying. not to mention if you could remove Noncoms from the station, wouldn't you?
It's highly likely the Defiant didn't see action at the Battle for DS9 vs Klingons. Her damage though not crippling, would have warranted her to be sidelined for an engagement this big. And given how the Klingons like getting up close and personal, the Defiant would have gotten in the way of DS9's firing solutions. When Sisko went weapons free, it was a big cluster eff of phasers and torpedo fire everywhere, she would have risked being hit by friendly fire if deployed. Look at the scene were the Neg'var repositioned to hit the shields with her heavy disruptors, you see stray torpedo and phasers fire whizzing by or they missed the Neg'var.
O'Brien mentioned that nothing had been tested yet, and the station missed a lot of targets. By the time the Dominion attacked, the torpedoes were on point.
just thought I should point out that stations and ships have some sort of manual override for doors similar to a hand crank flash light cant remember which series or episode I saw it in though. Also Klingon tactical retreat makes sense because even if they knock out or weaken the shields unless they destroy the weapons the station would keep firing also the ships enroute could extend shields to defend the station further more the only reason the station was taking the damage it was is because the klingons could focus fire that option goes out the window when the fleet arrives and they are attacked from both sides.
This battle should have had an Odo's 'Omae wa mo shinderu' With like crazy rapid fire needle arms wasting like 50 klingongs. I know I know, he's not one for killing, but this isn't a criminal arrest it's a battle. And the mirror universe showed us, a disrupter could kill him just as easily as any one else.
i feel like launching assault teams at Ops isnt as stupid as you make it out to be. if the klingons wanted to take the fight to the dominion, DS9 offers the perfect staging point. it makes sense to try and take it with minimal damage to the station. controlling ops would essentially give them full control of the station, making it that much easier to separate/wipe out the remaining defenders. theres no need to send a team to engineering if you can lock down down from the bridge.
For the Dominion, just mass target the mouth of the worm hole. Even after it became more stable that it could not have been collapsed, but before they got cardasdia, would be a huge problem for the Dominion to pass. Yeah, sgould have had a huge fleet of ships in the area.
That is how Starfleet has always been they don't even ever have enough ships to protect planet earth of all things and I could never figure out why and what the unlogical reasoning for it was, it just never made any sense what so ever. Now the Klingons and the Romulus always have fleets of ships protecting their home worlds!. Any ways you did a very great job explaining everything and informatively executing everything very well indeed 👌.
After losing the Enterprise to single bird of prey, Starfleet would not want to lose Galaxy classes so easily. Plus, I would think any captain of a Galaxy would be itching for payback.
I love the video as always! Excellent work! Just a bit of feedback: I personally do not like the mini video on the laptop in the picture. Its just too small and doesn't do anything for me. Anyways thanks for your hard work!
I had it because of this time it was already transported visadek without the need to run the shield and it was transported twice to the same place the crowd smisl first landing had the area for species
Ever since first watching this episode I've wondered why the federation didn't have an entire fleet based at DS9, not just a task force, a fleet. DS9 guards the gateway between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants, as well as Bajor, it is close to borders with the Cardassians and Klingons then the badlands and Maquis near by too. Starfleet stations one ship. Really wish the combat was more brutal in these 90's TV series. Tiny Kira Neryes knocking out several Klingon warriors despite being stabbed and all she does is smack them on the back, shes like one punch man.
Shooting on film is expensive, and TV production schedules are an absolute juggernaut, especially in when DS9 was being shot. Reusing footage in the edit suite is sometimes the only way to extend a sequence, so it's not surprising we get the occasional cloned shot/Klingon. Less of it happens now, but as you go further back in time you see more and more reuse to cover for the expense of production, especially on TV.
I don't disagree with any of that. The channel is pased on canon and in universe. I also was just having a bit of fun with it. I was very surprised they did it literally under 60 seconds apart..but still, i get that 'IRL' issues occur.
@@LoreReloaded I know it's a bit of fun, I just feel for all the people behind the scenes a bit. It ain't easy to make any of this stuff, and Canon had to contend week to week with any number of things that needed to happen to make interesting stories. It's not to say I'm not enjoy ingwhat you're making. ;)
There are logical explanation for most things in Star Trek but they do not always get a full point by point telling. For example the reason there was not a fleet of ships at DS9 has to do with a few factors. 1) Starfleet ships at this point in time are primarily (aside form the Defiant) for research/exploration and all traffic through the wormhole had been halted. 2) Even if you ignore that and assign them some fact reason to be in that sector they would risk provoking the Cardassians by placing ships near their border. 3) Bajor is not a member of the Federation. While they have agreed to let Starfleet manage DS9 they have not opened up their borders to a fleet of Starfleet vessels. Several other points have explanations as well that could take a while to get into, like the upgrading of the station having to work around the existing structure of the station itself. Thus certain areas where shielded from transporters while others were not. The shielded areas would then be put to use as shelters for the civilians and VIP's. Also, even while at war with each other both the Klingons and the Federation still abide by certain rules of war, like the use of biogenic weapons.
The defence of the Detapa Council is handled by two disposable Starfleet officers and Garak with Dukat - no Bajoran officers are present, not even the head of station security. The question is, did the Bajorans refuse to directly guard their previous oppressors, or did the Cardassians refuse to have Bajorans guarding their door in case they let the Klingons through in retribution?
They upgraded DS9 not to "Fight" the Dominion, they did it to get to Starfleet standards and arms. Recall all the Cardasian tech issue they had when they moved onto it, constant tech failures and O'Brien started modding till Starfleet granted full overhaul! Did you watch DS9?? Granted some of their writing has hole, just funny your first argument had a major hole itself
Gowron backed off when he did because he wasn't a fool. He had at least seven more cruisers heavily damaged - I say cruisers because Birds of Prey don't seem to be able to withstand one unshielded hit from Federation weapons instead they're instantly turned into a plume of burning plasma - possibly more by hits from the stations weapons. With six fresh Federation ships coming in he knew he'd lose especially as the Federation fleet would certainly quickly target and destroy the Negh'var cutting off the Klingons command and control and reducing the fleet to individual ships fighting battles that they cannot really win. Add in he was aware that if he directly engaged Starfleet cruisers with his fleet he'd be starting a war with the Federation as well as his current war with Cardassia a war he couldn't win as the two powers would certainly ally against him ultimately leading to the destruction of the Klingon Empire Changling Martok knew that which is why he was pushing for the fight to continue as it would weaken the Federation as well in the short to medium term - due to the need to station occupational forces in Klingon space - leaving the Alpha Quadrant wide open for a Dominion invasion.
I've always viewed the Federation as being the technological top dogs of the alpha and beta quadrants (please note I dont have an encyclopedic knowledge of star Trek and its races relative tech levels) with only a hand full of exceptions, and the reason why they've never gone all in on military technological advancement, is because they are scientists, diplomats and explorers first, a military second and have no desire to be seen as a primarily major military power and have such always pulled their punches right up until it's an all or nothing, no holds barred fight to the death. People of greater trek knowledge please do feel free to correct or explain to me the actual canonical reasons, I would appreciate it.
Yeah the Feds are on top when it comes to numbers and tech but are behind in tactics and military structure. In DS9 Weyoun was surprised to find out that the Federation was capable of upgrading their shields in a short amount of time and with limited engagements with the Dominion. In TNG the Romulans were also surprised that not only did the Federation build a cloaking device but added phase tech to it. Something the Romulans still haven't been able to replicate by the time of the Dominion war. That's saying something as the Romulans are the original designers of cloak tech. To further this, if you agree with anything from Voyager, in the close future; at least within 50 years, ablative armor and transphasic torps gives the Federation the ability to take on even the Borg. By this point it's pointless to even consider the other powers even a challenge to the Federation. The problem the Feds have is their passive nature. It's not really explained in lore why they act this way or why they don't have a military. Other than it's part of the negotiations to remove any such force from a member state. Which is odd as the Federation was formed in Lore to be a defensive coalition first and most members were either engaged in a war, soft war or cold war of some type.
Your saying a bit through is correct about the Klingons is correct. at the same time your talking about not just people in those spaces but children. and an honorable Klingon would never harm those that can not defend themselves.
I would argue emptying medbay was a good idea; any battle on the station wasn't going to be long-term and we even see during the conflict that their battle on the station itself lasts only a few minutes and during those few minutes the Klingons only wished to engage warriors; there were no warriors in the medbay, so no Klingons in the medbay.
More ships 'should' have been protecting DS9 after the battle with the Klingon's, however Starfleet were too busy holding the Archanis sector against the Klingon's and were not on hand to defend the station or lay mines during the fall of DS9.
Missed opportunity: As there were always 3 runabouts, assign DS9 a wolf pack of 4 Defiant class ships (USS Defiant + 3 others) Promote Sisko to Commodore. If that's too resource intensive, assign 3 Miranda class refits under a commander each. Sisko remains a captain (maybe promote Worf for coordination purposes), 3 new commanders are added to the recurring cast, and DS9 & Bajor get some Federation picket ships. Imagine the plot behind Sisko & crew dragging 3 "typical" Starfleet ships & crews to battle readiness amidst the Bajorans, Klingons, Maquis, Cardassians and Dominion... Just a thought...
Interesting idea, and I love the Miranda's in their time...but stationing them alone would mean the quick destruction of our beloved Miranda's...they are just underpowered to stand toe to toe with anything but the birds of prey. They would make good support ships for a larger fleet, or even a unit of a single galaxy or nebula class and three mirandas
Let’s get one thing straight....... Disco IS NOT starfleet, Trek, or anything related. It’s greedy network execs trying to cash in just like the new Star Wars fem-flicks. Doomed to failure.
@@simonhartley5444 Season 2 was actually pretty good. If you judged discovery with the same magnifying glass Lore uses in this video you'll see trek has always had problems. Many many problems.
Bill Kennedy and thrusting the lefts narrative down people’s throats is a fantastic way to guarantee failure. They tried it with Star Wars and fail. Star Trek will be next. At the end of season 2 it was bi-sexual this... pan-sexual that. Disgraceful.
If the Klingon twins dying makes me wonder. Is there a Klingon saving private Ryan? Let's call it Saving Private Dral and it can be about someone saving him out of an infirmary.
You mention there were no ships stationed there. It was bajoran space. They had just got out of an occupation. I would suspect that they would not allow a fleet that close to their Homeworld. It shows at the end of the battle that an entire fleet was close enough to beat the Klingon reinforcements. There is the fleet you speak of.
I kind of wondered why no ships around or multiple defiant class. I mean, they gave red squad the valiant 4-5x defiant class could have carried out some chunky salsa production
Going by the battle it took ~20 minutes for the fleet to arrive, I would say it was stationed more towards Cardassia due to the war between them and the Klingons - the fleet was able to respond within 30mins which the station proved it could handle. Comes down to where you think the fleet needs to be more responsive.
Starfleet is notorious for it's refusal to build warships or employ overwhelming military force, even when fighting in actual war. That said, when i play any 4x game i try and do the same and rely on the mix of peacetime forces, strongpoints, technological advancements and fancy manuvering.
In the Star Trek Online lore behind the Klingon player faction, it's revealed that Khales came up with the saying when he saw an old man stubbornly taking a stand against a hurricane, armed with nothing but a sword. As for the Starfleet reinforcements, the two unspecified ships could have been Defiant class. Admittedly, the first Defiant was a prototype, but when it was destroyed, there was a replacement, also Defiant class, to replace it. If that was a Dominion war version of the Galaxy class, then wouldn't any Defiant class ships even remotely ready to fight also be dispatched?
![ค้างคืนโรงเก็บกระสวยอวกาศร้างกลางทะเลทราย [Around The World Ep. 3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E5bWZQhABJE/mqdefault.jpg)
Would the Ops battle be called the Battle of the Binary Klingons?
So in that case the V'ger probe the Klingons found in the beginning of the Motion Picture should be called battle of the Reboot Klingons right? because they look total different from the TOS Klingons.
I thought Binary Klingons were the ones that destroyed Enterprise D?
No the the Klingons profected the refracted transporter beam in order to produce duplicates of their warriors.
..... because why wouldn't you develop that tech after finding a indistinguishable Tom Riker transporter twin of Will Riker? Imagine the speed of ship construction and materials surplus.
When I was in the US Army I work in a CASH (Combat Area Support Hospital). You better believe that we had security in and around the medical areas. The doctors and nurses were happy to have that security because it meant that they didn't need to worry about their safety while they were doing their job.
Oh yeah, reminds me of the show MASH
@@bennygerow which reminds me of the instant mash potatoes called SMASH
no one else has said it so I'm going to say it
Now witness the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station!
*looks at the nearby planet*
...I'm waiting...
frictionRx5 😂😂😂
Fire at will, commander.
That blast came from DS 9?! That things operational! All kilngons prepare to retreat. Won't won't get another chance at this! We have no choice general Martok our cruisers can't repel photons of that magnitude!
Fire when ready commander!
Gowron also had access to something we don't - damage reports from the undestroyed Klingon ships. Just because something is intact doesn't make it battle-worthy.
Thats very true
Absolutely usually any unit that has taken over 20% casualties is considered in need of refit and resupply before fighting again. If you are on the defense you may have no choice, but to have them fight. If however you are on the offense it is very unlikely most commanders would use that unit without resupply/refit, or attachment of additional forces.
I agree that makes a lot of sense
Just for emphasis of this point 1945 USS Franklin AKA how to keep a firestorm of exploding avgas and ammunition floating.
You see, they were emptying their stock of failed Kahless clones.
Of course it makes so much sense! Why didn't I see it before
Divide and conquer. An old but VERY effective strategy.
Damn Garak, look at this wide, open back Dukat presents you... ;D
Seems the safest way to take some actions
Garak: When the Klingons attacked the station Gul Dukat & I were fighting side by side, and at one point he turned his back on me. I must admit that for a moment he made a very tempting target!
Odo: You shoot a man in the back?
Garak: Well it's the safest way, isn't it? But then I thought "oh no I can't fight all these Klingons by myself, so I let him live!
Odo: And now you regret it?
Garak: Oh my deer Constable, before this day is over everyone on this station is going to regret it!
Itd changed alot of key points in history. My guess is Garak didn't want to have to fight off all those Klingons alone if the Starfleet guards got taken out is my guess
Indeed and then grab his phaser and you can easily fight of the Klingons (Choke point, they can only come at you two at a time :D )
He kills Dukat and the history of the Alpha Quadrant drastically changes. He even acknowledged his failure to do so was a source of great remorse.... Of course had that happened, the Dominion probably would have found another way "in" to Cardassia.
"Starfleet is everything that Humanity should strive to be"
Maybe
But section 31 are the wolves that die in the shadows, so that you can have that fantasy.
Well is it worth the price? That some durty their hands and by that the Federation, so that many may live in peace and harmony? A paradise build on good intentions and lies...is it still a paradise?
Until the wolves in the shadows turn on their own
"Someone has to protect people like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong"
@@tallsmile28 Si vis pacem, para bellum translated "If you want peace, prepare for war"
In Babylon 5, after the Earthforce attack to seize the station, there would almost always be at least one Minbari Sharlin class warcruiser and often several other League warships guarding the station.
And a Whitestar. Something that made space sharks look like a Saturn 5.
The Babylon 5 was writing was far far superior to anything Star Trek has produced.
And Babylon 5 was no pushover as stations go for that universe either.
Bajor was NOT a part of the Federation at this point, and it was a Bajorian station. That is something that everyone seems to forget. Bajor allowed, asked, the Federation to run and maintain the station, but never gave up ownership. So the Klingons were warring against a Bajorian asset not the Federation...
They barely defend Earth with any sort of fleet, zero chance they will defend DS9 with a fleet.
It's not like Terra from Warhammer 40k that has enough of a defense fleet to rival entire navies and the moon has enough firepower on it to probably reduce the Death Star to molten slag by itself. Though the Sol System is probably one of the most heavily fortified versions of Earth in Science fiction.
I think you make a valid point about the idea of having a picket on guard duty at DS9. I'm certain it was a budget issue why they didn't want to do it. My guess is they said "If we can't show it in this big battle we're paying for, better to have DS9 the lone warrior standing against the horde" approach. Maybe they figured it would cheapen the idea that DS9 its self was the lone beacon of light standing against the odds trope.
I never understoond why they docked the Defiant from the very first time they did this (from a writing perspective. I understand the budget angle). They only really say that the ablative armour had failed during the rescue, and that they lost the cloaking device (which isn't likely going to be their tactic in use anyway). Nothing stated about their shield grid or weapons being destroyed. Even if the Defiant had no armour and no shields, you'd think while fighting for your lives, you'd want it's fire power. It'd still be a target if it was docked on the docking ring.
The fight in Ops, while dramatic, was kind of lame. Klingons can always fight, oh, except when they can't. For plot reasons. I liked how during the boarding actions, it was the Bajoran personel that seemed to have the most success fighting the Klingons. Waiting behind the pillars and firing as the Klingons walked past. It's a nice touch of continuity re Bajorans being used to fighting intimidating enemies. Using smart tactics to hold them off. And it keeps the Starfleet NPCs ( :) ) looking appropriately useless (minus the main cast).
Klingon Twins was a good movie Danny DeVito really played the part well you could tell he had honour in his heart and soul.
Kinda off topic, but regarding the translation of Klingon (or not) depending on the circumstances, I always assumed it was due to some complexity within the language that there was no direct translation (in universe, I am not talking about the real world Klingon dictionaries). Similar to the Pilot's language in Farscape, when they spoke simple words the translations worked fine, but as they got more complex words had multiple underlying meanings and emotions that couldn't be correctly translated. It could even vary based on the speaker's body language and tone, which would fit with the Klingon's overall more savage nature.
So when Gowron said 'it's a good day to die' it could have underlying meanings that could indicate death to the enemy, a space battle, and convey his thoughts on the enemy being faced, all which the translators couldn't catch. As a bonus, it explains Robert O'Reilly's crazy eyes as being part of the language :)
Many language have words impossible to translate already. And some that directly have no meaning at all.
A little bit like the Dwarf Language in Warhammer Fantasy right?(Same Words with a Ton of different Meanings highly dependent on the Context).
I could immagine they dont spoke "standard klingon" but some Dialect, like when i as a Person from north Germany have a hard Time when communicating with someone from austrian country side. But it would be a huge Coinsedince if Gauron and Martok caming from the same Place at the klingon Empire^^
Gimjibar
It think it is more like what the characters hear is not what the audience hears. The characters would hear the original words and the translation at the same time.
There's a line or two in some of the Trek "novel cannon" that has Klingons speaking in a "battle language" aboard starships, which becomes a variant dialect where ship crews use shorter words and grammar to save time when they're fighting.
Other than the writers/producers using the Klingon language without translations to ramp up various episodes for "dramatic" effect, this could explain why it wasn't translated properly.
(TOS novels "The Final Reflection" and "Dwellers in the Crucible" have examples of this if anyone's interested.)
@@Corbomite_Meatballs Come on guys.......it's a common star trek trope, nothing more. As we can see trek has always been full of silliness and inconsistencies since it's inception, especially in the logic department lol.
This remains one of my favourite DS9 episodes for one reason: It shows why you don't attack space stations. Sure, they look all defenseless, just sitting there hanging in space with no real ability to run should shit go down. But the ability to take and dish out damage on those stationary platforms is second to none.
It’s because starfleet means being in a constant state of denial. We’re not a military organization....yes...yes you are a military organization just one who’s primary mission is exploration. NASA is a purely scientific exploratory organization. Starfleet is a military organization complete with the rank structure. Yes this was all due to Roddenberry being the Uber hippy but still.
Have said this for years! They absolutely are a military organization. Their ships are armed for combat.
If NASA is a purely scientific organization, why are there F-16s with NASA livery? ;)
@@mattnealtaylor4 Because their primary responsibility is aeronautical research across all regimes of flight.
I agree with your opinion of starfleet. They went pacifist. The butterfly collectors eventually gained enough footing that they outvoted the warship builders.
Riker and Picards attitude says it all when they complained about useless combat training. The brains over brawn comments.
The silly fools forgot you needed both. To secure peace, prepare for war. Just because no one was out to get them at that time does not mean a new enemy will not pop up.
Edit: forgot to add that you NEED a balance of both to travel the big bad universe.
icepicjoey
If sheep go long enough without seeing a wolf, they will forget the wolf ever existed.
Well said.
Klingons beaming into the habitat ring and promenade was probably a far better choice than trying to jump ops or engineering. We all saw how attempting to take a vital and manned area resulted in the boarding party's near immediate obliteration. Beaming into the middle of an unsecured nowhere gives the attackers a fighting chance, and an opportunity to thin the ranks of potential reinforcements before assaulting somewhere that actually matters.
Ops also had separate shielding then the rest of the space station
It's just for plot reasons, they literally beam over to the same spots, all standing, not even in positions to shoot......
Let's face it they would have beamed in bombs, or smoke, or stun grenades.........anything. The lack of transporter weapons in trek is actually hilarious. Hell why even use photon torpedoes? Just beam nukes right beside enemy vessels. It's one more example of military ignorance that has always followed trek. I mean they have matter to energy conversion tech.......they could literally use energy weapon strikes to power their shields lol.
@@MrBottlecapBill I think photon weapons are like millions of times more powerful than nuclear, but otherwise yeah, that always bothered me.
@@MrBottlecapBill Star Fleet Battles actually had a playable race, the Andromedans, that did exactly that. Armor plating that converted kinetic and thermal energy into a form that could be used to power their TR beams and rail guns
To be fair, that weird inconsistency where the translator translated most words and sentences, but oddly didn't on a few words was something that happened in almost ALL Star Trek series and the films too. DS9 wasn't the only guilty offender. The writers obviously did it for dramatic flourish, but it created an odd incongruity.
I was thinking what a great storyline it could have been if the federation would have led the Borg to the Dominion. That would have been epic.
that's almost as evil as dropping off a boat full of africans into an unsuspecting country like the judeo-slavers of renaissance-age earth. starfleet has standards
13:24; If I remember correctly there is currently a living clone of Kahless so it may not be the first one, because of this anything the 2nd Kahless may say might also be counted as a famous quote.
Also since he is a Klingon he is bound to drink lots and lots of blood wine.
Star Trek Table Top, battle of Ops.
GM: Dirk son of Damon is hit for a crit and dies... roll up a new character.
Player: I have. He’s Tirk, son of Damon. Dirk’s twin brother.
GM: Crit, he’s down.
Player: crosses out Tirks name. “Then Birk...”
Also sounds like the Call of Cthulu meta of making a character with an unspecified number of siblings.
Got some perfect dialogue
Someone:"wheres the bloody fleet at"
Sisko:"they pulled the fleet to bajor incase they strike there."
Boom,next thing you know I'll be sued by cbs for copy right infringement
owl waifu definitely Miles O’Brien with that phrasing
So sad this wasn't actually in the episode
About your first question about not having ships there. Probably has something to do with Bajor, and the Federation not being able to guarantee Bajor's security if the Dominion attacks. Bajor at least had to put up a front that they were independent to avoid being annihilated in the inevitable Dominion War. Bajor was also testy about other powers having a military presence in their space during the Dominion War, that also helps back up my point. DS9 had to go at it alone, a constant theme of the series
I'd suspend disbelief over the Klingons boarding DS9 action scenes. It was supposed to get across an action/adventure dynamic and a wild, this is a real fight, type of feeling and at the time it did that well I was riveted in my seat, that whole episode was good old swashbuckling flamboyance. Also old sayings tend to fit different situations, that's realistic, no fault there (trying to hard to be snarky).
I think there was an element of underestimating DS9's capabilities, I know TV budget was the real cause, but I'd like to have seen the Neg'var more in action, it was seen shooting once and did major damage. Federation only sending 6 ships, is something they tend to do, not to really fight but be a deterrent, as it did in this episode. If they had to fight, that doesn't seem like a guaranteed victory
Oh my god. Kahless has said things that perfectly mirror a specific situation in a specific episode? It took me most of my life to figure that out. Thank you. Now I can understand his sayings in tng, ds9, voyager, enterprise and discovery. I'm so happy...
Im here for you
As for the Klingons I am pretty sure they did not beam torpedoes onto the station because they wanted to capture it intact. Why the Starfleet forces did not do this is beyond me though.
i would beam stun grenades over first - followed by troops.
if i was defending i would have independently-powered transport inhibitors at key points, so any boarders had to beam into pre-arranged killing-zones, or turn off some inhibitors during the battle to allow transport into kill-zones to make attackers think they had failed and there was now a weakness to exploit - they would be dead before they could realise it was a trap!
a few TR-116 rifles might go a long way too...
Jarrad Scarborough a tactically sound strategy.
Beam wolves or bears onto the bridge of enemy ships/stations. Cheaper than torpedoes and leaves the ship/station intact.
7:30 as perfect and infallible as the universal translator seems to be it’s no surprise at all that is could interpret when a being is intending to make a particular statement that is better relayed in their native language.
This is the same machine after all that perfectly translates complex notions and entirely alien contextual modifiers in real time, I suspect it’s related to the same tech that knows when someone wants to walk through a door or dramatically monologue in front of a door.
Plot processors, they are from the same tech level 5han plot armor.
a lot of good points here, but the first bit about "starfleet" outfitting a space station but not sending more ships - starfleet is responsible for allocating vessels, but not the condition of the station. if sisko upgraded the defiant with hull armour and other nice toys, do you think he would've asked starfleets permission to upgrade a bajoran station? or would he just do it?
as they say, it's easier to get forgiveness than permission, especially if the foresight to prepare for a fight was vindicated by holding the station in a situation where it would've fallen if not for the 'unregistered' upgrades. kinda hard to reprimand someone for a technicality when they are winning...
except that it is stated that starfleet has upgraded the station. of course if we look at this with a modern look on things then it would make sense to send some ships as well, but if instead we look at this with a futuristic perspective then we would realize that stuff is far cheaper than people. the needed things for the upgrade that can't be replicated would be the anti-matter for the torpedoes, which all combined would probably be about as much as much as a single galaxy class ship (based on explosive power from warp core breaches vs. damage done during the battle). the station's retrofit did more to protect it than a single galaxy class ship. this makes the upgrades cheaper than sending a few ships and more effective at protecting the asset, and they did have ships stationed near enough to get there when they were in trouble. given the size of the federation territory and the time it takes to traverse the territory it does mean that they did have ships nearby to protect the station, but not exclusively to protect it as that was too expensive for the threat they predicted.
Sounds like Kahless ran into a Pyrrhic victory situ
This battle definitely needs some extra dialogue to make more sense.
"The Detapa Council is secure in a shielded room."
"Shields around critical areas are intact. The Klingons are bottled up trying to reach them."
"The Defiant just pulled a sick barrel roll!"
Also, how many Klingons does Sisko take out with his bare hands? Ben is an absolute badass, Worf should be taking note.
Picturing Obrian shouting that across ops made me laugh
The Defiant was probably docked, and protected by the station's shields. Since the Defiant is just a single ship, it would have been suicide for the Defiant to fight without the protection of the station's shields. There are too many Klingon ships that could fire on the Defiant.
Deep Space Nine has some of the best space battles in all of Star Trek.
There were some 40 Klingon ships I counted, a mix of cruisers, Birds of Prey and battlecruisers.
How many losses do we count?
Well I think you answered your own question from the start of the video, why wasn't there a fleet stationed at DS9, well they were probably refitting a large percentage of the fleet limiting available ships that could be stationed in fixed positions. Also keep in mind that Starfleet had always kept a large portion of its fleet exploring for perhaps years at a time, and that portion of it's fleet was heavily skewed towards the newer and more modern ships in the fleet, so recalling most of them even at maximum speed would take at least months, but potentially longer for the ones further out (if they decided to recall them immediately).
I liked how it took the Negh'Var firing directly at the shield generators to bring the shields down. I also think a Galaxy class can go toe to toe with anything the Romulins or Klingons have. Just because it has areas used for holodecks, day care centers, and a hair salon doesn't mean it can't take a pounding and still open a big can of whoopass. The federation has the combined technologies of dozens of space-faring species and are all about developing new technology. The Romulins / Remans and Klingons have undoubtedly stolen some tech through espionage and conquest but have nowhere near as much of a knowledge base to draw upon.
At 4:40 when you mention how the civilian populace was locked behind a guarded door and if the powers goes out they’ll be trapped. I experience a real life situation like that. I used to work at a tv station that upgraded their security locks. One night we had a terrible storm which knocked out the power and locked everyone inside lol it was both hilarious and troublesome
DS9: The space mall with firepower
For the klingons staying back watching other battles, just to play devil's advocate, it is possible that this is as a result of their culture, believing that it would be dishonourable to the fighting Klingon to come to his aid, and they should instead let him fight his own battle. Terrible tactics for a boarding party, but still a possibility.
Looking at that battle in Ops, it looks like the Federation forgot about the magic of the shotgun, and that the Klingons never heard the phrase “never bring a knife to a gunfight”.
Well there is some logic to bringing a melee in boarding actions. A disrupter might burn threw a view port or weakened part of the hull. Thus blowing everyone in that room into space.
Ironically, there IS a phaser version that's pretty much a phaser shotgun. Though a real one woulda probably worked just fine. Even our best real world one in the world which would've been ANCIENT by their standards properly modified for heavy combat... 1 dude could clear whole areas of Klingons by himself... can just imagine the looks on their faces... it's like that scene in the first Expendables movie where the guy drives all those soldiers down the hall with that drum fed combat shotgun. Just mowing them down.. while the rest just stare.. but their Klingons on the Promenade and your passing sickbay, odo, Quarks and Ops... the shocked WTF looks from the DS9 cast would be priceless though...
So cool that after so many years we see fresh videos from this guy. Cheers
...huh?
@@LoreReloaded im enjoying your channel. Before i meant to say its nice to see material being made from our old star trek series.
@@shadowrealm8014 ahh gotcha, glad you are enjoying!
The last episode of DS9 was a very emotional, and left long lasting impression on me.
Nice battle breakdown can't wait to see another one
Personally the longer I have lived the lest favorably I looking upon the Federation and by extension Star Fleet. Oh, the Federation is probably the most free civilization in the Alpha Quadrant over all. But even within that it has streaks of authoritarianism, techno-phobia, and even a level of forced cultural dilution.
I just hate how inept the federation is in security and how little they care for the lives of their subordinates or citizens.
Defending a Starbase is the same as repelling boarders in FTL; get your people to safety, turn off the gravity, and vent the airlocks. Sure the Klingons would send in another wave, probably in pressure suits, but you'll at least get the first bunch and make the next think twice. Like, oh, I don't know...maybe turn the gravity plates up to 11 maybe. Just a thought.
You have made good points about Starfleet before and after the dominion threat / Borg incursions. You see the Federation and Starfleet as having changed dramatically, and I agree. In early TNG, they are naive pacifist explorers embodied by singing Picard, goofball Data, and culture shock Worf. By this point, they have changed into a galactic superpower with an unbreakable will of steel, as embodied by Sisko, level 20 warrior Worf, emotion chip Data, and Jean-Luc “This far, no farther! I will make them *pay*for what they have done!” Picard.
I think that Gowron was simply unaware of this culture change. The Starfleet he expected would invite the Klingons to dinner, call a series of committee meetings, and agree to hand over most of the quadrant in the interest of peace and general fairness. What he got instead was 1000 torpedoes in the face and a relief fleet headed in with intent to fight to the bitter end. Perhaps, for Klingons, that even triggered a feeling of respect.
great video. and i find it refreshing someone viewing Starfleet and the Federation through a more balanced perspective.
Based on the actions taken by the Klingon fleet that you've described in this video, I think the Klingons probably wanted to keep the station relatively intact so they could claim it for themselves later on.
I think that they beamed in at odd locations because those are the areas the shields went down. Plus the high casualty rate was something they had in Star Fleet Battles, they were high risk and had a high rate of fatalities.
Most blood is over 90% water.
In all fairness, the Episode where Jake and Bashir are trapped on the planet while the Klingons were attacking ( I forgot the episode name), doesn't happen until later. It's possible Bashir just didn't know that's the Klingons view of the sick and wounded.
ds9 in this episode is the perfect examples of what one of my border starbases look like in stellaris midgame
Honestly, that proverb makes sense when it's just like, "Pyrrhic victories are a bad idea, y'all." Good advice, considerin how much the Klingons are into glorious last stands.
Deep Space 9 is also an important trading outpost. A defensive fleet would intimidate tradingships Bajor relies upon. Equipping the station with hidden weapons is the only viable option.
The reason why it sometimes doesn't translate is the same reason the doors only open when they know someone wants to go through and why communicators immediately message the person without delay, knowing who the sender wanted to communicate with: IT'S MAKE BELIEVE.
You still arent getting the channel :(
@@LoreReloaded You say still not getting, it's my first video. Eveer. And it's not my job to research, or understand beyond what is presented to me when I see a video. If you're implying this is tongue in cheek good on yah, but it's not apparent for a first time viewer. Or I may still not be getting it.
12:25 I think it's save to assume those areas are harder to reach due to extra forcefields and such so they are forced to beam in at other locations.
Furthermore, explaining the absence of a picket fleet could have been done away with 4 lines of dialogue
"With all these upgrades, shouldn't we at least have a defensive fleet?"
"Arming the station is one thing, having a constant Starfleet presence is another. If Bajor wants to maintain autonomy, the fleet must keep its distance."
"How much distance?"
"In the event of an invasion, we can expect reinforcements in no less than 8 hours, as per treaty guidelines."
Bam
Klingons don't seem to be known for taking prisoners. So the escape pod theory seems not likely. There is a huge Klingon fleet outside the station. Any escape pod isn't going very far. They will be caught immediately.
@Lore Reloaded 04:14 That's the way to the docking ring around the promenade, the non-coms were likely disembarking the station. at least according to what I recall from the Beta canon of the DS9 Technical Manual, this is supported by the fact that they appear to be evacuating based on the amount of luggage they are carrying. not to mention if you could remove Noncoms from the station, wouldn't you?
In the episode we see them post a gaurd, put a shield, and those within turn around
It may be accurate and the scene is just confusing..as you state the manual is beta canon so i dont know if we can be sure
It's highly likely the Defiant didn't see action at the Battle for DS9 vs Klingons. Her damage though not crippling, would have warranted her to be sidelined for an engagement this big. And given how the Klingons like getting up close and personal, the Defiant would have gotten in the way of DS9's firing solutions. When Sisko went weapons free, it was a big cluster eff of phasers and torpedo fire everywhere, she would have risked being hit by friendly fire if deployed. Look at the scene were the Neg'var repositioned to hit the shields with her heavy disruptors, you see stray torpedo and phasers fire whizzing by or they missed the Neg'var.
O'Brien mentioned that nothing had been tested yet, and the station missed a lot of targets. By the time the Dominion attacked, the torpedoes were on point.
just thought I should point out that stations and ships have some sort of manual override for doors similar to a hand crank flash light cant remember which series or episode I saw it in though.
Also Klingon tactical retreat makes sense because even if they knock out or weaken the shields unless they destroy the weapons the station would keep firing also the ships enroute could extend shields to defend the station further more the only reason the station was taking the damage it was is because the klingons could focus fire that option goes out the window when the fleet arrives and they are attacked from both sides.
I totally agree with you Lor I always do not understand why the therewere never any ships at the station
This battle should have had an Odo's 'Omae wa mo shinderu' With like crazy rapid fire needle arms wasting like 50 klingongs. I know I know, he's not one for killing, but this isn't a criminal arrest it's a battle. And the mirror universe showed us, a disrupter could kill him just as easily as any one else.
i feel like launching assault teams at Ops isnt as stupid as you make it out to be. if the klingons wanted to take the fight to the dominion, DS9 offers the perfect staging point. it makes sense to try and take it with minimal damage to the station. controlling ops would essentially give them full control of the station, making it that much easier to separate/wipe out the remaining defenders. theres no need to send a team to engineering if you can lock down down from the bridge.
Plus the uss venture could od suacer seperated giving star fleet 7 aditional ships
For the Dominion, just mass target the mouth of the worm hole. Even after it became more stable that it could not have been collapsed, but before they got cardasdia, would be a huge problem for the Dominion to pass. Yeah, sgould have had a huge fleet of ships in the area.
That is how Starfleet has always been they don't even ever have enough ships to protect planet earth of all things and I could never figure out why and what the unlogical reasoning for it was, it just never made any sense what so ever. Now the Klingons and the Romulus always have fleets of ships protecting their home worlds!. Any ways you did a very great job explaining everything and informatively executing everything very well indeed 👌.
Here is one for you. What if the Federation fleet was able to help the USS Enterprise E defeat the Scimitar in the movie Nemesis?
After losing the Enterprise to single bird of prey, Starfleet would not want to lose Galaxy classes so easily. Plus, I would think any captain of a Galaxy would be itching for payback.
Well, that was a very unique circumstance, given the Duras sisters had planted spy equipment in the chief engineer's visor...
I love the video as always! Excellent work!
Just a bit of feedback: I personally do not like the mini video on the laptop in the picture. Its just too small and doesn't do anything for me.
Anyways thanks for your hard work!
I suspect that is to reduce the chances of any copy right strikes.
I had it because of this time it was already transported visadek without the need to run the shield and it was transported twice to the same place the crowd smisl first landing had the area for species
Really enjoying this series.. thank you
It's really quite difficult to write a battle scene in which both sides are actually competent. Especially when you want entertaining TV.
Only thing I can add is even pre war galaxy class ships could fire a volley of 10 torpedo's at a time.
Ever since first watching this episode I've wondered why the federation didn't have an entire fleet based at DS9, not just a task force, a fleet. DS9 guards the gateway between the Alpha and Gamma quadrants, as well as Bajor, it is close to borders with the Cardassians and Klingons then the badlands and Maquis near by too. Starfleet stations one ship.
Really wish the combat was more brutal in these 90's TV series. Tiny Kira Neryes knocking out several Klingon warriors despite being stabbed and all she does is smack them on the back, shes like one punch man.
Shooting on film is expensive, and TV production schedules are an absolute juggernaut, especially in when DS9 was being shot. Reusing footage in the edit suite is sometimes the only way to extend a sequence, so it's not surprising we get the occasional cloned shot/Klingon. Less of it happens now, but as you go further back in time you see more and more reuse to cover for the expense of production, especially on TV.
I don't disagree with any of that. The channel is pased on canon and in universe. I also was just having a bit of fun with it. I was very surprised they did it literally under 60 seconds apart..but still, i get that 'IRL' issues occur.
@@LoreReloaded I know it's a bit of fun, I just feel for all the people behind the scenes a bit. It ain't easy to make any of this stuff, and Canon had to contend week to week with any number of things that needed to happen to make interesting stories. It's not to say I'm not enjoy ingwhat you're making. ;)
@11:28 this entire section reminds me of "then Worf fires his purple space bazooka..."
There are logical explanation for most things in Star Trek but they do not always get a full point by point telling. For example the reason there was not a fleet of ships at DS9 has to do with a few factors. 1) Starfleet ships at this point in time are primarily (aside form the Defiant) for research/exploration and all traffic through the wormhole had been halted. 2) Even if you ignore that and assign them some fact reason to be in that sector they would risk provoking the Cardassians by placing ships near their border. 3) Bajor is not a member of the Federation. While they have agreed to let Starfleet manage DS9 they have not opened up their borders to a fleet of Starfleet vessels. Several other points have explanations as well that could take a while to get into, like the upgrading of the station having to work around the existing structure of the station itself. Thus certain areas where shielded from transporters while others were not. The shielded areas would then be put to use as shelters for the civilians and VIP's. Also, even while at war with each other both the Klingons and the Federation still abide by certain rules of war, like the use of biogenic weapons.
The defence of the Detapa Council is handled by two disposable Starfleet officers and Garak with Dukat - no Bajoran officers are present, not even the head of station security. The question is, did the Bajorans refuse to directly guard their previous oppressors, or did the Cardassians refuse to have Bajorans guarding their door in case they let the Klingons through in retribution?
They upgraded DS9 not to "Fight" the Dominion, they did it to get to Starfleet standards and arms. Recall all the Cardasian tech issue they had when they moved onto it, constant tech failures and O'Brien started modding till Starfleet granted full overhaul! Did you watch DS9?? Granted some of their writing has hole, just funny your first argument had a major hole itself
Gowron backed off when he did because he wasn't a fool. He had at least seven more cruisers heavily damaged - I say cruisers because Birds of Prey don't seem to be able to withstand one unshielded hit from Federation weapons instead they're instantly turned into a plume of burning plasma - possibly more by hits from the stations weapons. With six fresh Federation ships coming in he knew he'd lose especially as the Federation fleet would certainly quickly target and destroy the Negh'var cutting off the Klingons command and control and reducing the fleet to individual ships fighting battles that they cannot really win. Add in he was aware that if he directly engaged Starfleet cruisers with his fleet he'd be starting a war with the Federation as well as his current war with Cardassia a war he couldn't win as the two powers would certainly ally against him ultimately leading to the destruction of the Klingon Empire Changling Martok knew that which is why he was pushing for the fight to continue as it would weaken the Federation as well in the short to medium term - due to the need to station occupational forces in Klingon space - leaving the Alpha Quadrant wide open for a Dominion invasion.
I've always viewed the Federation as being the technological top dogs of the alpha and beta quadrants (please note I dont have an encyclopedic knowledge of star Trek and its races relative tech levels) with only a hand full of exceptions, and the reason why they've never gone all in on military technological advancement, is because they are scientists, diplomats and explorers first, a military second and have no desire to be seen as a primarily major military power and have such always pulled their punches right up until it's an all or nothing, no holds barred fight to the death. People of greater trek knowledge please do feel free to correct or explain to me the actual canonical reasons, I would appreciate it.
Yeah the Feds are on top when it comes to numbers and tech but are behind in tactics and military structure. In DS9 Weyoun was surprised to find out that the Federation was capable of upgrading their shields in a short amount of time and with limited engagements with the Dominion. In TNG the Romulans were also surprised that not only did the Federation build a cloaking device but added phase tech to it. Something the Romulans still haven't been able to replicate by the time of the Dominion war. That's saying something as the Romulans are the original designers of cloak tech. To further this, if you agree with anything from Voyager, in the close future; at least within 50 years, ablative armor and transphasic torps gives the Federation the ability to take on even the Borg. By this point it's pointless to even consider the other powers even a challenge to the Federation.
The problem the Feds have is their passive nature. It's not really explained in lore why they act this way or why they don't have a military. Other than it's part of the negotiations to remove any such force from a member state. Which is odd as the Federation was formed in Lore to be a defensive coalition first and most members were either engaged in a war, soft war or cold war of some type.
Another great video break down bro😎👍👍👍👍
Its amazing how all the enemies were able to destroy Starfleet ships but they couldn't put a dent on DS-9. Talk about plot armor.
Your saying a bit through is correct about the Klingons is correct. at the same time your talking about not just people in those spaces but children. and an honorable Klingon would never harm those that can not defend themselves.
I would argue emptying medbay was a good idea; any battle on the station wasn't going to be long-term and we even see during the conflict that their battle on the station itself lasts only a few minutes and during those few minutes the Klingons only wished to engage warriors; there were no warriors in the medbay, so no Klingons in the medbay.
I think the reason they don't have a picket is because Bajor isn't part of the Federation and won't allow it.
More ships 'should' have been protecting DS9 after the battle with the Klingon's, however Starfleet were too busy holding the Archanis sector against the Klingon's and were not on hand to defend the station or lay mines during the fall of DS9.
a few images of star ships should have made a DS9 defence force look right. have them fighting on the cardassian border, stockfootage would do, lol.
Missed opportunity: As there were always 3 runabouts, assign DS9 a wolf pack of 4 Defiant class ships (USS Defiant + 3 others) Promote Sisko to Commodore. If that's too resource intensive, assign 3 Miranda class refits under a commander each. Sisko remains a captain (maybe promote Worf for coordination purposes), 3 new commanders are added to the recurring cast, and DS9 & Bajor get some Federation picket ships.
Imagine the plot behind Sisko & crew dragging 3 "typical" Starfleet ships & crews to battle readiness amidst the Bajorans, Klingons, Maquis, Cardassians and Dominion...
Just a thought...
Interesting idea, and I love the Miranda's in their time...but stationing them alone would mean the quick destruction of our beloved Miranda's...they are just underpowered to stand toe to toe with anything but the birds of prey. They would make good support ships for a larger fleet, or even a unit of a single galaxy or nebula class and three mirandas
TNG picard, DS9 Sisko and Discovery Pike, are starfleet for me
Let’s get one thing straight....... Disco IS NOT starfleet, Trek, or anything related. It’s greedy network execs trying to cash in just like the new Star Wars fem-flicks. Doomed to failure.
@@simonhartley5444 Season 2 was actually pretty good. If you judged discovery with the same magnifying glass Lore uses in this video you'll see trek has always had problems. Many many problems.
Bill Kennedy and thrusting the lefts narrative down people’s throats is a fantastic way to guarantee failure. They tried it with Star Wars and fail. Star Trek will be next.
At the end of season 2 it was bi-sexual this... pan-sexual that. Disgraceful.
If the Klingon twins dying makes me wonder. Is there a Klingon saving private Ryan? Let's call it Saving Private Dral and it can be about someone saving him out of an infirmary.
You mention there were no ships stationed there. It was bajoran space. They had just got out of an occupation. I would suspect that they would not allow a fleet that close to their Homeworld. It shows at the end of the battle that an entire fleet was close enough to beat the Klingon reinforcements. There is the fleet you speak of.
Next Discovery Short Trek: Epic of the Twin Klingon Ships
I kind of wondered why no ships around or multiple defiant class. I mean, they gave red squad the valiant 4-5x defiant class could have carried out some chunky salsa production
Sorry, bad punctuation.
They didn’t address the pill popping in the episode where the valiant was wrecked.
Seems like Defiant-class production didn't become widespread until 2373, perhaps.
Plot that is the only reason.
Going by the battle it took ~20 minutes for the fleet to arrive, I would say it was stationed more towards Cardassia due to the war between them and the Klingons - the fleet was able to respond within 30mins which the station proved it could handle. Comes down to where you think the fleet needs to be more responsive.
The Klingons attacked the Promenade because they had explicit orders to take the Hot Topic and Cinniabon FOR THE EMPIRE!
They should've gone for Spencer's instead.
Darwin Xavier
Just have a bunch of Klingons flipping thru the black light posters and lava lamps.
@@adamlemus7585 And trying to use the sex toys like weapons.
Janeway embodied this in "Dreadnought". She intended to destroy Voyager (and herself) to save a planet.
Starfleet is notorious for it's refusal to build warships or employ overwhelming military force, even when fighting in actual war.
That said, when i play any 4x game i try and do the same and rely on the mix of peacetime forces, strongpoints, technological advancements and fancy manuvering.
"Around 47"
In the Star Trek Online lore behind the Klingon player faction, it's revealed that Khales came up with the saying when he saw an old man stubbornly taking a stand against a hurricane, armed with nothing but a sword. As for the Starfleet reinforcements, the two unspecified ships could have been Defiant class. Admittedly, the first Defiant was a prototype, but when it was destroyed, there was a replacement, also Defiant class, to replace it. If that was a Dominion war version of the Galaxy class, then wouldn't any Defiant class ships even remotely ready to fight also be dispatched?
In the series there was a Galaxy class, Excelsior and Miranda I could see.
Do you think you will talk about the TR-116 rifle at some point?