Battle Breakdown : Operation Return - Bad Battle Plans
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I never understood why the fleet just didn’t go around. Like you said it’s three dimensional space. That’s bothered me for years. Probably for storytelling.
Where was the enterprise e ?
Still don’t know why every one think fighter attack is a bad trade, #loreReload can you explain why?
Also not shown in the episode: the 37 Oberth-class starships that exploded upon receipt of the attack plans.
*"breaths heavily out of nose"*
A new record high survival rate!
47 surely?
not to mention, quite a few miranda class types as well.
As having met Professor Oberth as a kid in my home town, a very nice old man, i am slightly offended ;)
"His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
Atleast TOS era knew (in one movie) knew how to space fight.
@Nat20 Damage Ever played Homeworld, I love sending frigates in straight in with multi-gun corvette cover, while using bombers and interceptors in a split group pincer against superior forces. The interceptors would act as decoys as bombers take bite into their heavy guns. When my big guns come in, the enemy would be too divided and disoriented to stop concentrated fire.
@Nat20 Damage you can allow for some modifications to that concept where trek is concerned though. With their shields and propulsion the amount of energy required to even reach the crews is immense and since their sensors somehow defeat lightspeed they can casually dodge anything that takes more than a moment to reach them.
Trek technologies convincingly reduce space battle to relatively close range melee. The weapons are powerful but pretty short ranged, and pushing that range out very far at all makes for practically no chance of a hit. Though even accounting for that the franchise doesn't really follow through with the ramifications of what the fighting would actually look like.
@Nat20 Damage Homeworld is probably still way ahead of its time, most modern space combat/strategy games don't fight in 3D or technically 4D concepts. Mastering combat is difficult enough in 3D, but mastering timing for various attacks to work, it's an art.
In the RPG world, EVE online has this in a real time setting, but problem is our technology limits our battle mechanics, so minor lag times and localized battles reduce the epic scale of grand space battles.
@@time391 You're damn right. Hell the original release still holds up, homeworlds 2 that is, never played homeworlds 1.
@Nat20 Damage I love Eve Online as well, the small gang battles for wormhole space or the start of SOV sieges are the most entertaining, you'll ever see in a game. However, it's the real world value of the Eve Economy that makes it so fun and kind of scary to think about, people do lose hundred thousands of dollars in Eve coalition wars on ships, starbase, and installations.
The Klingon could not resist such a glorious battle. Them not going after DS9 was more a culture thing
I think Operation Return was a very important battle, mostly because it was win or bust time. If the Federation Alliance fails then the minefield is cleared and its game over. Victory meant the Alliance still had a fighting chance and it was a victory, pyrrhic or not. At this point it had been an endless stream of defeats, so from a strategic point of view, it was an absolute must-win.
Biggest tactical mistake, literally none of the ships seem to have remembered to turn their shields on!
one thing they should have done, in my opinion, before engaging, launch every photon torpedo at the enemy then follow up with phasers, perhaps the torpedoes explosive effect would at least blind them -even though the enemy has shields too.
Maybe they could not fire their weapons with their shields up could explain why .
if i heard correctly, in one episode, Fed shields are useless against dominion weaponry....which would explain how a Galaxy class (odyssey) was easily taken out by being rammed.
It's true that dominion polaron beams went straight through shields against the Odessey but it is mentioned by wayoun while talking to gul Dukot at the start of the war that the fed ships had adapted. I believe it was simply the vfx artists at the time taking short cuts.
It doesn't help that most fed ships structures have questionable stability and seem to be made of explodium
Plus using 200-300 old ship frames plus the use of galaxy class which while not know to explode if looked at funny it dosen't take a whole lot more than that
Starfleet - Congratulations, you've been assigned to a Miranda class ship!
Unlucky officer - You want me dead, don't you?
“Is this about those replicator credits I owe you?”
Why didn’t the Klingons just go for Ds9?
Probably because of what happened the last time they did
I think the klingons enjoy fighting against ships vs space stations.
Either that, or they actually wanted the station to survive, thus the upcoming slaughter to actually have a point .
Knowing the Klingons and their idea of "victory', that was not a foregone conclusion .
@@Robotrik1 I mean Worf was the one to convince Galron and His friends needed Help plus Dax who he was about to Marry was on the Defiant that makes more sense than anything to me
The Klingons not appearing on sensors is easy to explain. Klingons love cloaking devices.
I was thinking the same thing! Why wouldn't they be cloaked?! 😆
Almost as much as the Romulans.
Agreed. The real question, in my mind, is why the Klingons would wait until Starfleet was being decimated before attacking.
For instance, why not wait until the Cardassians and Dominion are (somewhat) distracted by Starfleet's initial wave of fighters, then decloak and strike the Cardassians from behind?
@@dennismoon6693 that's because they like songs were the klingons save the day much better.🤔🚀
I'd imagine it would be because of how recent the Federation-Klingon war was at that point. The Klingons might have wanted to wait for Federation casualties to increase so that if hostilities with them did resume the Klingons would be in a more advantageous position.
Alternatively, they might have wanted to wait so that their eventual participation would be that much more "honourable", the sort of thing they could use to trade for greater concessions after the war ends. As we know, the Treaty of Bajor returns the interstellar borders to what they were prior to Cardassia joining the Dominion, meaning that a large part of Cardassian territory would be re-annexed by the Klingon Empire.
Starfleet: I hope this new ablative armor helps!
Sisko: *laughs in plot armor*
I wonder if Admiral Sitak would have approved Operation Return had she known that the USS Sitak would be destroyed in the battle...
Nice to see that Starfleet ramped up production of the Galaxy-class during the war. I just hope they didn’t spend all their time installing holodecks, carpets and comfy sofas...
I think during the war new stripped down powered up versions of the Galaxy Class were made. Do some research on the Venture Class Galaxy refit, I think it was called.
@@troyskeete8372 Yes, Dominion War variant Galaxy Class ships are very powerful, they're similar in nature to the "Yesterday Enterprise" variant. Instead of family suites and holodecks, you have troop lodgings and more shield grids. The Galaxy class starship should be no less than a battlecruiser in standing, if a Sovereign class is a Dreadnought Battleship.
@@time391 I always thought of the Galaxy-Class as something similar to the North Carolina Class battleships while the Sovereign-Class as something like the Iowa-Class battleship.
Troy Skeete Yeh I remember the Venture being at DS9 in “Way of the Warrior”, with the extra nacelle phaser strips, but the Galaxys during the Dominion War didn’t look to have any external differences to a standard Galaxy.
@@time391 The Galaxy-Class would've been a battleship had they been built as one. They had the potential to be but were missing key features of a true battleship. Namely the compartmentalization, massive redundancy, internal armored bulkheads, external armor, and of course the massive amounts of weaponry that a battleship requires. Because, remember, you can never go wrong with more dakka.
It may be an assumption on my part, but I would have assumed the klingon fleet would travel under cloak until engaging. This would suggest that the dramatic reveal of the klingons in the battle is not so unjustified, especially while the Starfleet forces were having their communications jammed. Of course, cloaking doesn't always work against the Dominion, but with their fleet engaged I doubt they really had the capability of effectively watching for an incoming cloaked fleet.
He also says the Cortez was fate unknown yet it was the Cortez that signaled the Defiant of the dominion retreat before Sisko orders all ships to DS9…clearly this guy doesn’t fully pay attention…
I always assume the Sisko was purposely left in the dark and the Klingon were always coming. He was told the Klingon weren't going to join but I think this was so he would react like it was the Federation fleet by itself. They lure the bulk of the Dominion forces into a single engagement, Ben held them into that engagement and then the Klingon could attack the Dominion forces from all sides, decimating presuming the Dominion best forces.
Plus remember the Defiant was sent on a operation to destroy a Dominion sensor array I'm pretty sure that cripple the dominion ability to see the Klingon forces being rearrange and preparing for a large scale battle.
@@JohnnySqueaky He also stated this was the first offensive. Which is wrong because the characters talk about several other large offensives involving hundreds of vessels which the Federation had lost.
It's easy to take a crap on these fight scenes today, but at the time this was aired, I remember these fights being really amazing. What I appreciate about ds9 is that it shows the limitations of Roddenberrys vision: building paradise on earth leads to it being broken by invaders.
Lawrence S I absolutely agree
Still, I think JMS did a better job on Babylon 5 with their 3D battlefields. The most interesting thing about 3D rendering during the late 90's was the differences in rendering scale, DS9 used traditional aspect ratio, while Babylon 5 chose to operate on a 16:9 aspect making it almost cinematic in terms of 3D rendering.
+Lawrence S You clearly have never watched “Gene Roddenberry’s Andromeda”.
@@time391 Agreed, considering even today every Fan wonders what could have been done with B5 with 65% the cost of each DS9 episode.
Agreed but also it’s cool to see the mistakes or what if and how better could have planned
But yeah I remember the battle loved it
Well, it's hardly surprising the Klingons weren't detected before hand - they do have cloaks, after all. And I think you're underestimating the effect of this battle. The Dominion forces just lost the block-force between Cardassian space and a held Federation starbase. They would have to scramble to get ships into place to prevent Klingon Birds of Prey and other raiders from running wild on their strategic infrastructure - and we have NO indication that the Dominion was operating with a strategic reserve. In fact, just the opposite - which is why they were so desperate to get reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant.
So, those ships for a new defensive cordon have to come from the forces currently hammering on the Feds and Klingons. Suddenly, the strategic situation looks a lot less rosy for the Dominion, and the Deus ex Machina loss of their reinforcement fleet would be astonishingly morale killing.
Dominion: This shall be the end of the Federation.
Sisko: No you
Still remember the first time i saw this episode and found myself thinking, (depending on how you are looking at this) the Federation has no tactical brilliance in its rows and/or the Cardassian - Dominion alliance is at the very least not incompetent. I figured this both refreshing and disappointing at the same time. Refreshing as the bad guys weren't treated as idiots in a TV show. Disappointing as ...well...... i wish they had someone who would at least suggest a plan B or something unconventional. The way i see it, this was a battle between two competent but ultimately not too imaginative adversaries.
I'd say that the Zakdorn would fit your criteria.
@@enterprise-h312 my memory no longer serves me as well as it used to, so i had to google them.....but yes, you are spot on!
@@ilejovcevski79 I'm rather sad that DS9 didn't explore the Zakdorn.
I think that there were some really good stories to be had there.
@Nicole M No, they don't. They issue commands such as "Fire at will." a.k.a. fire at your own discretion.
I don't know if you've ever played a Star Trek game, but a system which instantly fires would be worthless unless it was combined with an automated piloting system to take advantage of weaker shield sections on one side. You also have to take into account that you have a limited amount of photon torpedoes.
@@enterprise-h312 indeed. On top of that, there are thing we don't see on screen, such as the computer trying to configure both phasers and shields to maximize their effectiveness against enemy weapons-shields. Coincidentally, this is what made them so vulnerable to Borg attacks at first. The Borg adaptation algorithms were much more advanced and could easily predict how the feds WCS and SCS would be configured. Pressing the button to fire the weapons in a certain pattern is only the scratch on the surface. What happens underneath is what counts.
A space battle brought to you by the same kind of writer who thinks the only form of fantasy or medieval warfare is a cavalry charge, even when there's a perfectly good fortification literally right behind them.
cough...winterfell...cough....dumb and dumber.....cough
A couple of things I could think of;
1. They probably couldn't send the fleet around the Dominion blockade because of the same point you brought up about them not spotting the Klingons approach - long-range sensors. Had Starfleet attempted to "go around," the Dominion would have spotted them on long-range sensors and repositioned the blockade. The Blockade didn't have to be that far from Bajor to work, so the Dominion had less space to cover. Starfleet, on the other hand, HAD to head towards Bajor from some reasonable direction.
The only other options they would have had would have been to move around outside of long-range sensor range and try and come at Bajor "from the other side," which would likely have taken waaaay too long. Remember, warp drive will be limited to the slowest ship in the fleet and its not uber-fast when considering galactic scales, anyway. Time was very limited, so they had to take a direct-ish route, which would always allow the Dominion to reposition. The other option would be to split the fleet up into numerous battle-groups and come at DS9 from multiple directions. But this would still be risky, considering the Dominion had greater numbers. It would also mean little co-ordination between the separate groups and it would also be unlikely that any one group would be enough to take on DS9.
2. Regarding the Klingon approach not being spotted on long-range sensors. They were probably cloaked. Its that simple. They have cloaking tech and needed only drop the cloak right before they began the engagement.
As for why they didn't bypass the blockade and head straight for DS9, that does seem suspect, but there are possibilities. Their orders were to join the Federation fleet, so they may have stuck to that rather than concoct their own plan. The Klingons might have considered it dishonourable to abandon their allies in the middle of a battle. It's also possible that the Klingon fleet alone wasn't large enough to take on DS9 - they'd lost such a battle before, remember. So they may have needed to help save Starfleet in order to have a large enough fleet to take on DS9.
Now the one dumb tactical decision you missed was Sisko's suicide attack on the Dominion reinforcements in the wormhole. It seems he wasn't planning on getting the Prophets to assist and got quite narky with them for interfering at first. No, it seems his last-ditch plan was to try and take on 2800 Dominion ships with just the Defiant - a totally pointless attack that would accomplish nothing. Why wasn't he trying to collapse the entrance to the wormhole? We know the could do it with just some torpedoes. Sure, they'd tried the "nicely-nicely" method previously and it backfired on them thanks to Dominion interference, but as they were about to lose the war, you'd think Mr "Hard Decisions" Sisko would have lobbed a few dozen quantum torpedoes at the wormhole given the dire circumstances. It could hardly be worse to the Prophets than having a scrap inside the wormhole with 2801 warp cores potentially blowing!
Sisko was guided by the voices of the prophets, that's why he went into the wormhole.
@@stonem0013 No, he wasn't. They entered the wormhole and he was preparing to fire on the Dominion fleet. Then the Prophets interrupted and his first reaction was to tell them to mind their own business and let him get on with the battle. It was only when he realised they were insistent on his survival that he decided to try and convince them to intervene. There's nothing in the episode to suggest he had a prior vision or was even hoping to contact them for help.
The Federation had so much technology at its disposal. They could have used hit and run tactics, while their rear forces laid cloaked mines as a traps. Then when the Dominion-Cardassian forces were weakened enough, the Federation fleet could use their entire fleets deflector dishes to discharge enough EM to blind the DC fleet long enough for the Federation to flank and attack from the rear.
Take that flat thinker! "His thinking is 2 dimensional" (Spock, in the Mutaura nebula, Wrath of Khan)
To be fair the klingons might not have been detected due to a combination of cloaking technology, sensor jamming by both sides and energy discharges and debris caused by destroyed ships.
Personally I would have used a version of the Picard manoeuvre. Have half of the fleet do a warp jump point blank to the cardassian ships, with the cardassians having less effective shields and weapons than the dominion. Unload a volley of phaser and torpedoes from multiple ships at single vessels destroying them rapidly and causing damage on other ships close by. then doing a second warp jump back before they can target starfleet. Then get the other half to do the same on different targets.
If the KDF bypassed the battle, it would almost certainly have crippled their only allies ability to support the war effort as likely all Starfleet ships would have been destroyed.
The heavy losses in this battle don't constitute a pyrrhic victory.
I love that a $0.99 book was able to afford a sponsor spot
WOOT WOOOT Loved DS9 showed the Starfleet when things get real and go terribly wrong and very very left
USS Cortez was mentioned in "Far Beyond the Stars" so it did survive this battle. Given that it did go missing while patrolling the Cardassian Border months later (it was assumed it perished).
Operation: That's So Damar!
Then you leak the name publicly. Now everytime Dukat talks about the plan he has to say that!
One has got to wonder if Sisko attended the training exercises with the Zakdorn.
Wasn't the Klingons cloaked until they opened fire. But yes every time I watch this I'm like hmm go around them. But then I guess the dominion would follow to ds9 then Starfleet would have had engage the station as well as the fleet.
But by that reasoning some should have engaged the blockade while the rest of the fleet bypassed the Dominion.
maybe by going around it would have taken too much time to reach DS9 to get 600 ships to go around 1200 with out being detected would mean they went way out the way im guessing 1200 ships could cover alot of space
what the Dominion did was set up a choke point to the quickest route to DS9
I always argued the admiralty only approved the operation because they knew any push by the Dominion during the attack would be occupied by the Sisko's forces. They were pretty stalwart in not throwing in their support for Sisko's plan to retake DS9. So engaging those 1200 ships was more or less necessary, not just to break through but to occupy their attention so they don't make a b-line for the core worlds whose defenses are at their lowest point. As for the Dominion retreat, its stretching but I think there was more to it then that. Even with the Klingon's minimalistic aid, it probably wasn't enough to break the Dominion's back. At best cause a mess of their defense line with the shitstorm of Starfleet ships in the mix that required them to reposition, hence why the Defiant was able to punch through. I wonder if the missing 9th fleet ended up showing up closer to the end of the engagement, by then the odds should have been even or stacked on the side of the alliance forces so the Dominion pulled out knowing this and maybe knowing they won't be getting any reinforcements.
beeline
I don't think the Klingon aid was minimal, I think they ended up showing up with a substantial force a few hundred ships, in a battle of 700 vs 1200 and Federation ships were already stronger than many of the Cardassian/Dominion ships one on one.
I also suspect that they Sisko were distracting the Dominion forces with his fighter raids, the Klingons were able to position there forces all around the Dominion fleet, so they could hit from all sides. So when they did reveal themselves the Klingon attack from every possible direction, leaving nowhere to run, and with a very strong an compact Federation fleet back in the middle of them. I also wouldn't be surprise if 9th fleet showed up as well but they probably ended up hunting down Dominion ships desperately trying to run back to Dominion space.
@David Knowles
It is hard to say what aid the Klingons provided, but Worf's dialog did admit that it was difficult to get Gowron to spare many ships for that engagement. I think Klingon ships out flanked the Dominion lines with a sudden blitzkrieg that created holes in their lines, and their repositioning provided a perfect opportunity for the Defiant who was fast enough to react making her the only ship to break through at the time.
And yes, Starfleet had ships that can take on many Cardassian and some Dominion ships on it's own. But we don't know the numbers of the more modern ships that took part in the operation. We still saw a ton of Mirandas and Excelsiors, fighters conducted raids and provided defensive screens, and refit Galaxy wings pushed the line in as best as possible.
5:28 I’ve always thought klingons just wanted a fight instead of doing the strategic thing 🤣
I haven't seen anything on how many Klingon ships participated. I'd guess Gowron didn't authorize a very large number, which would explain how the Dominion seemed unprepared for them. Even still, a modest number of Klingon warships including a number of Vor'chas, can inflict serious damage to Cardassian destroyers, strike fighters, and Jem'hadar attack ships.
A modest force might struggle against an operational Terok Nor with Dominion weapons and a number of support ships.
Bypassing a fleet of 1254 ships would have left large portions of the Federation vulnerable to attack. They didn't have a choice but to engage and in this case send them running after the Klingons engaged. Even though the Federation sustained heavy losses this victory would no doubt boost morale after as O'Brian put it "Three months of bloody slaughter."
Step 1, get a whole bunch of old but functional warp nacelles, or new ones if you can afford them, or even design a specific one for the job, but that's entirely up to you, step 2, install guidance circuitry, an appropriate power supply, the rest of torpedo control stuff, and a blunt lump of super dense stuff on the tip of the nacelle, step 3, point them at the biggest baddest ships and engage their warp drives at the highest they will go, step 4, watch the multi gigaton fireworks, mop up the remaining forces with galaxy class engineering sections with a few nebula torpedo modules mounted to bare bone saucer sections, and later drink to your win.
Thats what I would try to do.
I've always wondered what a purpose-built battleship would do. Redundant shields, multiple warp cores, the biggest phaser cannons the Andorians can dream up, enough torpedoes to vaporize the quadrant, and if possible, cloak everything using the phase shift technology that Section 31 has to have perfected by now.
But nacelles alone wont do anything.... that power source you mention is a warp core and needs a warp drive hull to live in. So all your talking about is using starships to ram starships. I dont thing any "super dense stuff" is required, you are dealing with warp coils that are already incredibly dense and massive and superluminal velocities you have plenty of destructive energy on hand.
That's assuming warp speed ramming actually works like that, warp drives theoretically impart no momentum so you shouldn't get anything spectacular out of a collision.
Also, since the net output of any propelled collision can only be the equivalent of the power used to accelerate that collider you are gaining nothing by using the fuel to ram a ship into another ship vs using that fuel to power weapons. Sending a bunch of antimatter at the enemy as torpedoes is roughly as effective as using that antimatter to propel a collider into the enemy, you dont gain any free energy by doing it with flair.
@@lonnyyoung4285 a purpose built battleship with properly utilised treknology would be quite incredible. But why go for brute force. If they decided to toss the rulebook out the airlock, Starfleet have the ability to create phase cloaks. Equip a bunch of minelaying ships with them, go engage in some banter with Dukat while your fleet of completely undetectable ships dump a metric fuckton of cloaked and self replicating mines in and around the enemy fleet. After a bit of fooling about, and the minelayers are done, politely ask for their unconditional surrender, when they inevitably laugh in your face, get a Miranda, perigrine, or something equally pathetic looking to fire a low yield torp at a battleship and blow the mines in that ship. Then ask again.
@@DrewLSsix I think the main deflectors on ships sweep in front of the vessel while at at warp to prevent micrometeors and dust particles from hitting the hull and obliterating the vessel. There are small warp capable power sources that you could attach to a nacelle, for example, I don't think Cochranes phoenix had any antimatter (or a deflector) but still achieved warp 1, shuttles also have very compact warpcores. The dense blunt mass on the tip is to act like a dumdum bullet, I imagine a plain nacelle could potentially smash straight through an enemy vessel and cause less overall damage and still be a danger to something behind the target. Essentially its a warp version of an electromagnetic railgun.
@@andrewbutton2039 Hmm, yeah you'd think Cockrin shoudd have died form all them rads at going lightspeed.
To me it sounds like Star Fleet military minds were quite incompetent and were saved by sheer luck.
The Klingon arrival was both plot armor and lucky timing. General Martok more than likely had to convince Gowron to commit a portion of their forces to the battle. Given the talk that happened it would delay their arrival. As a result the Klingons would have been in sensor range the very moment that the two fleets engaged in a melee of close quarter fighting. As a result the Dominion would be too preoccupied with Federation to notice the Klingon about to smash into them.
Projections never take into account the power of plot armour
@0:15 - I love this. Already off to a strong start!
Dominions Tactic:
We have Reserves
The Prophets: *miracle* "Not any more, you don't"
The USS Cortez definitely survived this battle. It was later reported missing in DS9: Far Beyond the Stars.
I think a more appropriate name for this operation would have been: Operation Home Run.
Baseball reference. Make it look like they're making a run for betazed or somewhere else. But really... 😉
The Cortez survived. At the end of the episode they communicated that the Dominion fleet was retreating. The Cortez was destroyed in a later episode.
Starfleet vessels (well except for the Miranda's and other relics) *were **_faster_** than Dominion vessels,* [bugship absolute max warp 9.6, it's canon, a Sovereign could hit 9.985, Intrepid 9.975] so they could have easily set the pace of the battle.
At the very least Starfleet could have set up a wing of its fastest ships to bypass the entire battle.
And it would have helped the battle as well, since at least some Dominion forces would peel off to pursue the fleet that was behind their lines, and that would make those Dominion ships vunerable as well, to pursuing ships that could catch up, since Dominion vessels were optimised for forward firepower.
The remaining Starfleet ships could play it safe, hang back, and be defensive, keeping the remaining Dominion forces occupied without actually committing to a furball.
As for the Klingons they approached under cloak and apparently the Dominion were to busy to keep their tachyon scans up.
Still the Klingons could have decloaked behind the Dominion, maybe slightly above or below so they don't friendly fire Starfleet, instead of diving right into the middle - sigh…Klingons.
But it is impossible to intercept a faster fleet in three dimensional space out in the open, unless you're consolidated around the destination/target.
A better tactic would be for several different Starfleet formations to all make a run as they approach, and if they get intercepted turn round and fall back. It will split Dominion forces up and if there is a major battle Starfleet wings can approach from several different vectors - it just makes the Dominions job a complicated headache.
Basically have the fleets appear to converge at the battle point, but instead try to skip past if they can.
We actually don't know if Tachyon scans are effective against Klingon cloaks.
imagine if they still had the spore drive...
The spore drive is the biggest mistake in Star Trek history.
Or at least setting it 10 year before TOS. The development of a sporedrive in the 26th century or later wouldn't bother me at all.
I hate the continuity crimes of Discovery so much I will never dignify it as real Trek.
I'd have thought a saber or two would have got through since they are defiant class done right
klingons are klingons, they are like the irish you always find one where there is a fight.
I was more surprised the Klingons didn't wait until SF was nearly wiped out and then go after everyone. They could have easily boarded and taken the undefended DS9 with Klingon shock troops and essentially taken 2/3rds of the quadrant for themselves.
And war wasnt over yet. This was first big operetion for the Aliance that was success and the next big offence was when romulans enter the war. Dominion War act like western front during WW I. Aliance lose terytory at the begining and hold the grund, when Dominium try to pusch. Dominium also was far better preaper for the war. Starfleet admirals at the begining can be comperd to the French generals who dont want remove that red trausers(Miranda class).
The Klingons were CLOAKED when they warped in.
Nice work Lore
Considering how badly the Kingons lost to DS 9 when it was under federation control they may have not wanted to engage it alone
The Think Tank of Genetic Supermen said they'd loose because they didn't take into account Divine Intervention. Now lets all praisse The Emmisary, the Sisko.
I always thought the easiest battle plan would have been for the Starfleet ships to plan attacks against certain target ships and massively overwhelm their shielding instead of each ship seeming attacking individual targets. 5-10 ships targeting each of the biggest threat ships would beat their shields and destroy them. Then, move to a second round of targets. Plan ahead, such as during the fighter wing attacks, and even losing communication doesn’t cause the same problems. And if you’re worried about the Dominion eavesdropping, then use transporters to beam couriers around while they are sitting out of reach.
So basically the Leroy Jenkins maneuver.
Do you think the fighters where actually piloted or where they drones controlled remotely or by the computer?
1:41 Come on, Lore, since when in Trek history have battles ever used all three spacial dimensions?
And no mentioning that famous example in Wrath of Kahn, that would be unfair.
@Jonsin 1459 yeah, for all that people like to throw out the 3D thing they rarely actually think things through.
You COULD send ships around to out flank the enemy.... but they enjoy the same freedom you do. Except if they are in a defensive position they only need to pivot to face you with their strongest weapons and defenses, and they are still part of their battle group. You on the other hand have divided your forces AND presumably wasted some measure of resources on a maneuver that gained you nothing.
On the other hand you do have every reason to approach the enemy head on, your ships and overall formation are approaching the enemy with all their best weapons and shields facing them, extraneous maneuvers chance exposing the flanks of individual ships and weak spots in the formation. And just as with the first example, if the enemy tries to maneuver to your flank your ships in that area need only pivot to counter. The enemy has now wasted time resources and divided its forces.
This also handily answers the constant question of why do ships in space always seem to meet in the same orientation? Simply because that's the only smart thing to do! Meeting friends you typically assume a normal orientation out of convenience and to make maneuvering simple if you are to do something as a group. And when meeting an enemy or potential threat its wise not to show them your neck or belly. Just like in a battle you put your weapons and defenses directly towards the other ship, and they do the same. If you just allow your self to hang in space at whatever orientation you happened to be at you offer a larger softer target that cant fight back nearly as well.
To a degree they did use 3 dimensions. Both fleets were stacked several layers deep. It looked like a WW2 bomber "box" formation. The Sitak and the Majestic were hit by a Cardassian phaser from below and a Dominion battleship's cannon from above.
@Jonsin 1459 Well, no, the primary reason was that if they took too long, Dukat would bring down the minefield, and then it would be all over.
The whole battle plan in 1 word:
CHARGE!!!!!!!(full speed ahead!!!)
deus is is pronounced dayoos
“I guess long range sensors weren’t working”
Or maybe the Klingons have.. cloaking technology.
“Instead of the Klingons assisting Starfleet at this battle why didn’t they attack DS9?”
And leave a huge portion of the Federation fleet to get slaughtered? Genius plan.
Who the hell liked this video?
i think perhaps on the strategic level the victory meant the loss of a lot of assets for the dominion as well. perhaps because the lines were broken and over 200 enemy ships broke thru that the dominion fleet may have lost a lot more than we thought. but I agree with lore here that it made it into a stalemate not a decisive victory.
What happened to the nable class star ship why weren't they they?
1:38 outside of cinematics, the reason why you DON'T BREAK FORMATION is so that you can apply more fire power in to a concentrated area. Thus if the smaller fleet break up and try to go around in to enemy held territory THEY WOULD ALL BEEN DESTROYED MORE EASILY. However, staying in a tight formation they can destroy more capitals and cut the enemy fleet down
I never understood when the Founder pulled all her forces back to Cardassian space. She lost DS9 and her reinforcements, but she was still winning everywhere else and they just gave a pasting to a large SF fleet.
Wish Homeworld allowed the scale of battles that Operation Return had.
Federation fighters backed up by ion frigates focusing fighters.
I always thought they reclaimed the station far too early should been an end of season event
It wasn't the first large scale move against the Dominion. There were several scenes where we hear about the Federation launching attacks on the Dominion with hundred strong fleets prior to this.
The Romulan entry into the war turned the tide.
The problem with Operation Return is that NONE of the ships follow the plan. The original plan was to full on assault the Dominion lines and any ships that made it through was to run for ds9, Starfleet ships having a definite speed advantage. Instead, we saw ships staying and fighting. The loss of communications shouldn't have mattered at all.
You are absolutely right. Several Galaxy class and Akira class turning to fight. Heck some were even going back the way they came. Perfect example was when the klingons showed up scene.
The klingons were probably able to approach the battle unseen because of their clocking devices but at the same time the federation fleet got its ass beat until the klingons arrive. However remember that 200 ships were also able to break through the lines so even though yeah the federation was hurt maybe when the klingons arrived it turned the tide of the battle and its never said how many klingon ships came
I mean granted that there's this 3D space for ships to move in, and we see that with the roughly spherical blob of forces that each side tends to bring (flattened depth-wide to increase potential surface area and firepower to bear). However, long range sensors are a thing, and for a fleet that size, the blobs would just track each other. It wouldn't matter if they tried to go around, it's not like they'd be able to sneak 600 ships through the so-called blockade.It's just about trying to get the fight to occur as close as possible to your target destination.
I think a lot of shows have a hard time with the whole 360 battlefield of space. Not one seems to get how it really would be, even Star Wars and that's what its all about. But overall, a win is a win at that point in the war. So even if it wasn't tactically the best thing, it would have gone a long way to raising moral. Also, its pretty possible the Klingon ship's were cloaked, and (for the same reason we don't see shields in DS9 large scale battles) we just never saw them de-cloak.
Also, the Klingons ships were not detected approaching the battle because they most likely waited until they were in position and in weapons range before dropping their cloaks. Also, both Starfleet and Dominion forces were jamming each other possibly making it even more challenging to detect cloaked ships.
0:11 Operation Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom were pretty obvious.
Wasn't the rationale that if they didn't take on the dominion fleet where they did, that they would be risking being sandwiched between a heavily armed starbase AND such a large task force?
I believe that this is one of the last battles we see this many Miranda class Frigates deployed because during the first and second battles of Chin'toka we only see a handful.
With a large proportion of Miranda's destroyed during the Dominion war I wonder if the Akira replaced it as Starfleets workhorse?
I think Akira were intended to follow-up the Nubula-class as the Sovereign had the Galaxy-class. Both types were smaller than their predecessors, arguably better armed, but most likely had reduced multi-role capacity and perhaps even range. The Galaxy and Nebula had distinguished themselves in almost the entire range of Starfleet missions. The problem was the growing threat of being overwhelmed by a number of adversaries, not counting a volatile ally that had contributed to stability for two decades. With newer designs built on experience fighting the Cardassians, the Borg, and others, they would incorporate the latest technological advances, construction methods, and lower crew requirements, to steadily increase tactical strength without radically cutting scientific and diplomatic resources.
I always thought of the older Excelsior and Miranda as old destroyers and destroyer escorts. Mirandas being the cheaper, under-powered ships used for routine missions and escort duties. The significantly newer New Orleans frigates, being a relatively cheap build, but able to counter most ships up to medium cruisers. The Steamrunner being another possible frigate, since it has a fairly medium build with simplified hull surfaces, and modestly effective combat systems. With its powerful engines, and limited hangar capacity, it could be a contemporary destroyer.
Another possible frigate could even be a Voyager concept. The slender, sleek design with it's small profile and decent weapons systems, over-sized engines, with a volume almost certainly less than the Intrepid, would have made it an affordable vehicle. A more well-rounded and capable multi-mission starship than a raider, corvette, scout, or even an escort.
As for a post-war replacement for the Miranda, I'd opt for the Merian.
It's hard to visualize these battles without a detailed tactical view of fleet deployments and the orders given to the elements of that fleet.
The strategic balance of the War had shifted in the Dominion's favor early in the War in part because of the upgrading of the Cardassian Fleet. They were no longer the achilles heel. Gone were the days when a Galor couldn't even damage a Galaxy Class with its shields down, or had to fear a BoP. Indeed, in TNG, we saw Gul Evek's Galor unable to do much damage against Maquis raiders. Flash forward to Operation Return and it is clear the Galor Class' weapons received a serious upgrade. Not only were they able to destroy Federation fighters (the same class as Maquis raiders) with ease, but now they posed a serious threat to any Allied ship smaller than a heavy cruiser, and could hold their own against mid-sized Starfleet vessels. This is later demonstrated in Season 7 of DS9 when we see Galor Class cruisers one-shot killing Jem Hadar attack ships, BoPs and even Breen frigates. The Galor became a very credible medium cruiser, and there were huge numbers of them, and the Keldon a credible heavy cruiser. The make-up of the Dominion-Cardassian Fleet was now well balanced. Jem Hadar capital and attack ships, with scads of Cardassian cruisers complemented each other well. With the Cardassians now able to hold their own, the Federation Alliance was now faced with a numerically superior enemy that was no longer technologically imbalanced. The practical outcome strategically was that the Federation and Klingons were clearly outmatched until the Romulans joined the War.
One thought on the whole 3d space thing is maybe it's a situation where if you try to go around the enemy fleet they can just intercept you or force you to go so far out of your was as to make that option impractical? Of course then you'd think you could just scatter your forces in 100 different directions but IDK, just trying to think of how it makes sense.
But then if we wanted realistic space battles everyone would be going well above light speed and shooting from distances too far to see with the naked eye and you wouldn't get any epic shots of ships fighting and close quarters and whatnot...
Yeah but that One Two punch from those galaxy's on that galor was sweet.
I think it speaks volumes to Starfleet's arrogance and perceived sense of superiority that, to this point (short of the Defiant), they had precisely SQUAT in the way of real offensive capacities. All in all, even massive and massively powerful ships like the Galaxy- and Nebula-class vessels were little more than technological hood ornaments.
"Operation Echo" might have baffled them for .26 seconds longer. Next time, ask Alexa, Google, Siri, or Cortana for a random word.
Mr. Lore, can I speak to this as a certified military historian? And yes, 2D tactics always makes me pull my hair out in space battles. In SW they at least use the concept of hyperspace lanes to reduce things a bit (still poor), but in ST, with warp tech...the strategies are idiotic. On the level of Last Jedi so wanting to replicate B17s over Germany that they created arguably the most insipid space battle in movie history.
That said, a few things. When your enemy is able to bring untold reinforcements if you fail at your objective, it becomes the pivot point in a way. With the entirety of Dominion home forces able to come in after the mines are detonated, the cost of fighting this battle is worth it. This was the moment when Bashir's friends calculus would have become undeniable. And if I recall right, there was some desire by Sisko that a large enough detonation in the wormhole would have rendered it impassable. So that explains his suicide run (it actually reminds me of the "Tin Cans" charge at the superior Japanese fleet at Leyte. Those destroyer commanders knew their ships and crews were going to be destroyed but by doing so they saved many more lives and the key operation of the invasion of the Philippines. Sisko's reaction is no different than those commanders (which is why post-hostumous Medals of Honour were awarded). In war, your individual life has to be understood as less important than the larger goal, or else no person would ever leave the safety of their lines. It's why wars should be avoided unless justice (or extreme threat) require it.
Trying to create a hole in Carsassian lines is silly given 360 options, but in a 2D combat scenario (like the Pacific of WW2), antagnoising the group most likely to let emotions destroy tactical positions is not unheard of and a good strategy. In so doing a resolute and fixed force can defeat a larger and superior force. The Battle of Hastings turned on just such emotional over-reaction. And those fighters knew they were going to be sacrificed. For us civilians it's impossible to imagine why people who then go on their mission but, that is what is needed of soldiers/airmen/sailors.
Final point as to why the Klingons didn't go for DS9...first their orders were to engage the Dominion fleet. Klingons also love a glorious battle and...that was where it was. But most importantly attack en filade are the most potent in military settings. The ability to cross the T like they did brought maximum support to Star Fleet and maximum damage to the Dominion. I would have tasked 5 BoP to go directly to DS9 as well, especially with the entirety of the Dominion fleet forward. But perhaps they didn't know what they would find, and thus maximum focus was on that battle. The Klingon commanders may not even have known of the threat to the magic mine field.
Just some thoughts from someone who loves your series (and your read on Star Fleet). I pull my hair out at Star Trek space battles but...I also love the visuals (if I divorce my mind from the thought thousands of fictional lives are being lost).
During the dominion war why did we not see fleets of Vulcan, Andorian, And Tellarite ships? The have their own fleets along side the federation fleet
the military's of federation worlds are absorbed into starfleet. there is an episode where they talk about having to absorb the bajorin militia into starfleet once they join the federtaion. there is also the episode of an entire vulcan crewed starship that challenges sisko team to baseball. so most likely there are tons of starships manned and crewed by majority andorian , vulcan, tellerites. thats not to say that vulcan, andorian and tellerites ships werent around they just happened to be science or merchant vessels most likely crewed by civilians or non starfleet personal. atleast thatsh how i look at it.
True but we see Vulcan ships in TNG I believe Vulcan has more then 2 ships
I think UFP races maintain small flotillas for relief missions, local law enforcement, evacuation convoys, research, colonial expeditions, and things of that nature. Bit like a national guard. Sending those outdated, lightly armed ships to the front, however, would be a war crime. It'd be like sending Coast Guard cutters against hvy cruisers.
"Betazed's OWN defense systems were obsolete and undermanned." -- Sisko
Very cool to see all the ships in battle. Absolutely ridiculous to see this happen in 3 dimensional space lol. This would have made sense if they were fighting in a small canal in water lol
Sisko's battle plan after the fighter harassment and galaxy wing to block the flanking move/trap: "LEEEEERRROOOOOOOYYYYY JEEEENNNKINS!!"
"Not to speak of the innumerable Miranda class starships that were there."
Best ship class ever designed wins again.
The Miranda’s were the Sherman tank of Starfleet. Individually inferior, but present in such numbers to overwhelm.
Deus is pronounced day-oos not deuce as in the number 2. Great and informative video.
it doesn't matter what they called the plan or what course they took to DS9 they had to try to get there before the mine field came down and the dominion was always going to be able to intercept them before they got to DS9 if they chose too, they could have sent Dukat a copy of the plan and their course and speed they still had to face a larger fleet and a station that resisted a fleet. Some times there is no fancy move or good choice just the less painful loss.
My thoughts ; why was there no sovereign class ships in the dominion war, makes no sense to keep the biggest gun in the holster
I would have created extra ships that would be used to project holographic ships in order to make the dominion forces think that they would be fighting a larger force and feel like they were outnumbered. If anything, use the hologram technology that created the doctor on voyager, I'm sure that would have helped them out tactically and throw off their sensors.
This battle reminds me of a forgotten battle that was never really mentioned in World War II !!! Before Midway there was the Battle of the Coral Sea !!! Before that battle the Japanese were on the movie in the Pacific !!! The battle of the Coral Sea produces no victory for either side , except for the fact that it was the first battle in which the Japanese did not advance after !!! that !!!
The Starfleet was in seriously deep troubles and got under extreme pressure to deal with the problem of Dominion's ability to destroy the minfield, which prevented Dominion from bringing huge reinforcements from the Delta quadrant. That being said, the Starfleet had to prevent them from coming through the wormhole by any means possible and as quickly as possible with minimal loss of time (i believe we are talking about minutes to couple of hours at most - untill comlpete defeat). Starfleet could seperate their forces into small groups of ship and cirqumvent the bulk of the Dominion ships (the later would definitely see that maneuver and counter it) but they would all have to reach DS9 to make any attempt of attack on the station itself (Klingons and Dominion saw how effective the station was against ships). This possiblitly was probably even worst for the federation, not only that they would have blast through the defense fleet of the station and the station itself, they'd also found themselves between the anvil and the hammer (that bulk of the Dominion fleet would return to defend the station or they'd be deployed to deal with the pockets of Federation ships to quickly eliminate them). I suspect that the Starfleet would eventually employ kamikaze attacks on the station or that would be the final battle for the Federation and the end of the Alpha quadrant.
I imagine that the 9th Fleet arrived to break out the survivors of the vanguard fleets. They were on route, and possibly the faster ships of the fleet may have increased speed ahead of the slower vessels once news of the battle starting without them reached them.
As for the Klingons, two reasons why they didn't go for the Station. Firstly, they are rather glory hungry and would rather leap into a bloody melee then sneak around the back like a Romulan. Secondly, it was lead by Martok and Worf who knew their friends were in dire need of reinforcements. Klingons showing up suddenly to save the day is kind of their kink.
Oh, and its possible that blocked communications interfered with sensors as well, not to mention Starfleet wouldn't know to be looking out for cloaked ships as they didn't think the Klingons were even coming at that point.
Last thoughts on 3D combat. It is clearly simplified for television, but there are also reasons for the amassing of ships in the manner they did. The Dominion outnumber the Federation considerably, so any attempts to flank might result in an utter dogpile as ships warp in to join the fight. With them grouped together they were strong enough to ensure the Dominion didn't pick them off one by one and would instead have to commit forces, in which the Federation likely hoped the Cardassians would be the weak point in the link where they could break a decent sized fleet through without harassment from Dominion forces as they would all be engaged in a pitched battle.
But yeah, not ideal tactics.
The Klingons were cloaked, that's why they weren't detected. And as soon as the Dominion detected Starfleet having broken through their lines, the Founder ordered all their forces to pull back to Cardassian space. So there still could have been several hundred Starfleet ships fighting at the time.
Same tactic used at Battle of Chin'toka. Advance until we’re surrounded.
I sort of agree with you about Starfleet in 3D space could try to get around the Dominion fleet, but the Starfleet fleet was big enough for the Dominion redeploy and intercept them so they had to deal with the fleet. Also, DS9 proved under Starfleet that it could put up a serious fight. Why the heck would Starfleet attack DS9 with Dominion fleet support?
Nice!👍
The Klingons didn’t have the numbers to hold DS9. At this battle The Alliance forced the Dominion into a resource deprived area of space and shifted the war slightly more in their favor. This battle may have been the first critical victory in the war.
I myself have one major problem with this whole battle. Space is very big, like stupidly big, it's also 3D, and yet the Federation chose to launch their attack to retake DS9 through a Dominion fleet, rather than you know. Go around.
The Dominion made a HUGE tactical error in moving their defending fleet so far away from DS9, even more so when you take some basic tactics into consideration, let's say the Federation still launched their "attack" as normal, but only included their larger ships and the Defiant along with the fighter escort. Leaving the other ships free to after the battle began to rush around the Dominion fleet and attack DS9. Even if they did pick up the smaller ships moving on long range sensors it's unlikely that much if any action would be taken as with the size of the ships and the fact that the Defiant was in the fleet in front of them the Dominion would have likely assumed that the fleet of smaller ships was a distraction to draw their forces away from this main fleet. Thus allowing for the real attack fleet in those smaller ships to attack DS9 and win the day with likely far fewer casualties as it would keep the smaller more fragile ships out of the fight, and once they had done this, they could have turned around and flown back to smash into the rear of the Dominion fleet, though by that point the KDF would have arrived and the battle would have likely been nearly over. To counter a possible argument against this of "the Dominion would have just sent ships back to stop them" If it wouldn't have been a problem for the Dominion fleet to fall back to the station to stop this proposed attack fleet, then they should have also been able to do so to stop the Defiant, they wouldn't even need a large number of ships for that.
Also another thing the Federation could have done is just warp straight to DS9 past the fleet, we know Dominion ships can't reach the same warp speeds the Federation can, only really the Cardassians could have caught up to them, this not only would have gotten the Federation fleet to DS9 faster, but also split up the Dominion fleet as the Cardassian fleet likely would have rushed ahead to stop them. This would have likely caused even fewer casualties for the Federation and likely kept the minefield up. Keeping in mind for this whole plan that weapons ranges seem to cut off at the absurd 300,000km range(a range so far you likely couldn't hit much of anything reliably at) so you could effectively still fly directly at the Dominion fleet but at 300,001km away and they likely wouldn't even notice you were that off course until you were nearly past them given how fast warp is. Sure that might have put them a bit off of DS9, so just adjust your course after you pass the Dominion fleet. The only way this wouldn't work is if for some reason the Federation had to warp to gravity wells in the same way EVE Online ships do, and them setting courses if just fluff.
Side note: I really have to question the Federation on building more Galaxy Class ships, the Dominion wasn't so much winning because they had better ships, but because they had MORE ships. Even in this battle the Dominion had over twice the number of ships the Federation did, so why spend all the resources on building Galaxy Class starships when the Nebula gives around the same firepower in a smaller hull, and the Defiant class and Akira class have likely far more firepower than ether of the Nebula or Galaxy, though those would take more experienced crews to fly as their weapons are forward facing requiring the ships to actually maneuver and try to avoid being hit over just sitting still and firing until one side can't fire anymore. Essentially the Federation is falling into the German trap here, building things far more advanced than they need and taking resources that they could be using to win the war with to do so.(For example the cost of one of Germanys impressive Tiger tanks was about as much as 3 Panzer 3 tanks, and the Panzer 3 was still an effective tank.)
Another side note: Space being 3D and all that might also explain how the Federation keeps losing key planets to little to no resistance, because clearly the Federation thinks the space is a flat 2D thing and that one must travel in straight lines everywhere with no deviation. So if we assume the Dominion for the most part do see space as actually 3D(I get Weyoun's eyes are very weak but surely he can see space as 3D well enough most of the time) they would effectively be able to just go around any defending Federation ships thus creating a situation like I suggested the Federation do above in attack into a fleet and have another fly around and smash into their rear, and I would imagine that the Federation would consider that after having a Dominion fleet bypass their fleet and just retreat rather than risk being wiped out fully.
I always considered it that the geometry of trying to go around the Dominion fleet was such that the Dominion had to cover less space to still intercept the Federation ships. It would be impractical to go far enough out of the way to make that advantage worth while, and the Dominion could always move closer to DS9 to make up for it. No, it would be better to organize in battle formations and fight it out than get part of the fleet caught in a running engagement.
As for the battle, considering how some fleet actions were going (97% losses or worse) at the start of the war, this was a resounding victory in that half the vessels were still combat-effective.
This is why you don't mass your fleet like that, while the Dominion does have a numerical advantage Star Fleet ships in small supportive structures are superior. if you're Sisko and a "superior advanced mega human of the future" he'd know to divide his fleet into floatillas centered around the Dreadnaughts of the fleet and then scatter around the Dominion fleet which is massed while on approach drawing them into smaller engagements which would allow higher chances of certain ships getting through to Deep space 9 without being destroyed, as well as trapping the Dominion fleet in a 'net' of Phasers allowing the Starfleet forces to bring the max number of Phasers into the fight and presenting more targets to the Dominion which then starfleets mutually supportive shields comes into play, all while the clumped up Dominion fleet has vessels that cannot fire because their in the middle of a Block of ships even Admirals from the 20th century could point out saying "that's blocking fire lanes pointlessly".
Yeah, can fight a war long term if you’re taking those kinds of loses
The Cortez survived. It was mentioned in an later episode.
The Federation would have won anyway. Why, how? Remember that the Dominion were infected with a lethal pathogen. On a few occasions the war Leader of the Dominion was very clear they were all suffering the effects. With the death of the “God’s”, loyalties would fracture between the Vorta and Jem’idar. We saw those cracks in previous episodes. Even the Gamma and Alpha versions of the Jem’idar were fracturing over who was superior and in ultimate command. Then there were the Wormhole God’s who locked Dominion forces out of the use of the wormhole. That alone gave the Federation, Romulans, and Klingons ample time to recuperate, and reorganize for a final squeeze of the Cardassian realm. In fact the Cardassians were themselves breaking down bonds of being a vassal state of the Dominion. The Federation was exploiting that too. The a Geek Squad did NOT give the Federation a reliable opinion for a Federation loss since they simply were not offered all the facts and Intel. Heck, no one in the command structure even realized that Section 31 was using genocide. So, “Never underestimate the ‘Pink Skins’ after you push them onto the thin ice”..