Tangled - How Girls Get Gaslit
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
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Did you ever realize there’s a Disney Princess movie about gaslighting? Rapunzel may be trapped in a tower like the quintessential Disney princess, but it’s not the building that’s really holding her captive in Tangled: it’s her mind!
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why?
How about The Kid Hero trope? I like the part where you would deconstruct it using Evangelion and Steven Universe as an example to prove people that the idea of giving the burden of the entire universe on a kid’s shoulder not only is idiotic, it’s suicidal
Women are getting gaslit by the certain feminist groups into thinking they are oppressed. They constantly tell them men hate and don't respect you because you are a woman. They tell them women are inherently better than men and the world would be a better place without them. They tell them men are dangerous and they should avoid them. It's crazy that so many women eat this up, without question.
why the hell are you still working with them?
if someone's interested in the wrongdoings of 'better help', check out Mickey Atkins video here on YT.
Better help is a scam company. So disappointing seeing this here. I know you have to make money but try and be more aware of who you are working with.
The amount of comments I'm reading about how this movie made people realize they were stuck in an abusive relationship with their parents is proof enough of how relevant Tangled is.
I wonder why it took a childs movie for people to see that,
@@Chris-rg6nm Sometimes you really don't know it's happening until you see something you relate to and it clicks
@@Chris-rg6nm There's a literal quote from mother Gothel that my mother used a lot but when I was younger I couldn't piece it together since my mother was that high on a pedastal for me. When a parent starts gaslighting you from a young age and has a bit of talent for it, it's not that hard. She's always a step ahead of you, because you've not fully developed and then molds you in a way that you stay vulnerable to it. Parents also have the ability to isolate you; not allowed to see your friends, family, accompaning you when seeing strangers, doctors, even therapists. Limiting time you can spend at school, etc.
Breaking that cycle is hard, but once you do... yeah, you look back wondering how you were ever that blind and whenever they try to gaslight you, you wonder how they ever think that could work. (And then remember, how long it did work. :'( )
The fact I relate to her too...
No fkin wonder I love(d) this movie
Here watching this after seeing this film referenced in a comments section of a podcast about surviving parental narcissistic abuse. And I was on that site in an effort to recover from the traumatic experiences of merely trying to go see a movie with my mom last night (ended with her getting so triggered because she insisted on my opinion of the film and when I offered a critique she got so insecure that she had only praised it and hadn’t thought of my point. She then proceeded with a total word salad of none sense). She kept insisting on making me talk about plans, etc ignoring that it was late out and not sage to be standing on the street. I wonder if such disregard for safety is a feature of narcissistic parents. Going to watch this film. Thankful for it but so sad that these dynamics are so universal.
Tangled definitely started the wave of Disney exploring psychological developments and topics.
After it’s release, we got Big Hero 6 which explored grief. Frozen and Frozen 2 explored mental illness and coping. Pixar’s Inside Out explored complex human emotion. Zootopia explored biases. And Encanto explores familial generational trauma.
Edit: Yikes some of y’all real rude in my comments for reasons I don’t understand. 😂
Isn't that all Disney movies?
Hey I'm not trying to be rude by asking this. How does frozen explore mental illness and coping (like when, which scenes or songs)? I've not watched it for a little while.
*Coco and Encanto
@@veraa5809 Elsa’s struggle with depression and isolation. She was so crippled by her fear to the point of abandoning her sister. Ana has attachment and abandonment issues. She desperately craved attention and love (that she didn’t get from her sister) so much so that she jumped into an engagement with a complete stranger.
@@Chris-rg6nm Lol! I think these movies have gotten more in-depth. The earlier movies kind of touch on these issues, but they are more or less centered around some kind of romance, while these plot lines seem to be driven by more complex human emotion and worldly conflicts. Lion king probably being the footprint (I’m sure there are others I just can’t think of any )
One thing that I really like about the movie is how Rapunzel actually starts the movie with some of Mother Gothel's characteristics, similar to how abused children can often take on characteristics of their abuser. When Mother Gothel doesn't allow Rapunzel to go to the lantern ceremony, Rapunzel immediately thinks up a scheme to send Gothel on a 3-day journey, showing that Rapunzel has adopted Mother Gothel's deception. Rapunzel also starts the movie by withholding Flynn's treasure so that she can use him for her own means (seeing the lantern ceremony), much as Mother Gothel uses Rapunzel for her own means. But, Rapunzel diverges from Gothel throughout the journey both literally (resisting Mother Gothel) and figuratively (shedding the toxic behaviors she had learned from Gothel) as the movie goes on.
Wow out of all the times watching the movie I so didn't relize how she copied her actions and it all comes back and bites her. This goes to show you why you should raise a child to not be a deceptive person
Wow, how at this age you just shocked me like this and taught me something new is amazing. Thank you.
Wow good point
This is a very good observation. What do you do for a living? It sounds like you're good at it.
Mind-blowing! 🤯 Well put, man
One scene that stands out to me is when Gothel is taking out Rapunzel’s braid. Gothel takes it apart, basically erasing what Rapunzel learned on her adventure in the outside world. Like when a child shares what they learned with their family, only to be shut down and reverted back to the way they were before. This time with a lot less confidence and self esteem.
@MaidOfPasta There's also a moment during "Mother Knows Best", where, as Rapunzel lights a row of candles, Gothel follows directly behind her and snuffs them out. (1/22/2022)
@@daniellemusella1594 everything about that song is just so spot on
It was shocking how real Mother Gothel was to me. The constant gaslighting, the passive aggression, insulting you and claiming it was only a joke when you naturally get insulted and the first time I heard her say "oh, now I'm the bad guy" after doing something toxic I got chills.
There's little doubt the writers based her on a dozen oh too real mothers.
That "it's only a joke" thing, I hate that. If the other person isn't laughing, it's not a joke
Right? Like they based it right on my dad
@@valencia8848 fair enough. I should've said parents. But in my experience bad fathers tend to be aggressive (if present at all) where bad mothers tend to be passive aggressive. It's a strength/society thing.
I remember seeing this in the cinema when i was 10. I cried so much and for the first time in my life, realized my own relationship with my mother. It was a crazy experience, seeing something so similar to my relationship, getting enlightnment from a disney cartoon! Its my absolute favorite film, its so important and i hope it helped others like it helped me
As a child, the climax where Rapunzel found out the truth wasn’t a big deal for me, but after I had my first fight with my mom, that scene was never the same. Not that my parents were anywhere near bad, but everyone experiences that scary moment where you realize you have to do the impossible task of telling your mom they’re wrong
There is a great episode of "Cinema Therapy" on the same. A filmmaker and licensed therapist sit down and analyse the 10 signs of gaslighting present in the movie. It is so well done. And it definitely isn't boring, it's entertaining and informative.
I looove Cinema Therapy!
I love Cinema Therapy
That’s how I found their channel
Lets go Cinema Therapy!!!
yessss, their episode on this topic is so well done, in general their whole channel is great
When I watched this the first time with my mom she was literally agreeing with Mother Gothel throughout half the movie smugly, until she realized she was the bad guy? And then she just went silent lol
Ohhh damn😂💀
Some parents evan went as far as say mother knows best to control thier kids
Do you recognize your mom in mother Gothel too? 😬 If so, my sympathies.
@@Snowshowslow Oh I definitely used to. I'm in my late twenties now and moved away and we have since had a lot of discussions and she's admitted to a lot of the problems and has actively worked on them. Now we have a very healthy relationship.
It wasn't obvious to your mom when Gothel kidnapped Rapunzel as a baby from her parents that she was the bad guy? At what point in the movie did she realize Gothel was the bad guy?
Here's something to think about. One of the versions I read as a little girl, is one where Rapunzel repeatedly invites the prince into the tower and the old woman finds out only when she realizes Rapunzel is pregnant and cuts off her daughter's hair as a mark of shame and uses it to lure the Prince up the Tower only to blind him. The Prince wanders the wilderness blind until he hears two babies laughing and finds Rapunzel with their children. Rapunzel weeps with joy and her tears heal the Prince.
This version sticks with me because the old woman who insists on keeping her daughter forever pure is the villain and not Rapunzel and the Prince for having sex out of wedlock. In fact, instead of being considered unpure for losing her virginity and therefore having no value/power Rapunzel's love is what heals the blind Prince who still went into the wilderness to find her.
This story is so fascinating and I can't wait to see more retelling in the future.
The story I have read that she was not the mother but a wealthy woman (witch) living in a big house and Rapunzel's father brought herbs from her garden to cure his wife's illness and in exchange she wanted his first child. When by that herbs magic the girl is born she was given to the witch and the witch kept her captivated in a tower. Till a prince arrives by the tower and climbs up with the hair that always used to by the woman. Rest is same as you read. I read that story as a 7-8 years old and I thought it was pretty scary. I didn't have any idea about sex out of wedlock and anything but now that I think about it, the witch treated her as her possession similar to the herbs she was growing and couldn't think of anyone plucking it. So she punished the prince who "ruined" her. Its that age old "virginity" myth of women where she is compared with a flower to be protected, cared for and admired from distance and once it's "plucked" it loses all values and withers eventually.
Fairytale theater (shelly Duvall narrates it) taught me that exact version. The only difference was the witch knew about the prince, not the pregnancy (rapunzel didn't even know what she was doing with the prince or that that's how babies are made). The minute rapunzel accidentally says the prince's name, the witch stumbles on the rope rapunzel was weaving & gets rid of her. As I got older, I got more annoyed by the prince, because he kissed rapunzel when she didn't even know what a kiss was and he had sex with her when she didn't know what sex was and didn't know babies were made from it (she had a child's exposure and knowledge, and the prince was just trying to get lucky cause he saw a pretty girl), after pop culture detective's video on the "born sexy yesterday" trope, I was able to put my finger on why it bothered me (also in the video I watched, the witch wanted to eat the prince/man and make brain soup)
Since my ancestors were German, we had the horror version of fairy tales. And the pregnant wife demanding her husband get Rapunzel from the witch’s garden lmao I knew when I was pregnant what that was like. But then the husband just gave up his baby?! He was such a coward.
Also, the prince and Rapunzel having sex was also scary to me-because she was so childlike and naive while he was a spoiled prince. I think that’s why he had to be injured, so he could be humbled. I mean, Rapunzel still had to give birth ALONE and then raise two kids ALONE… but at least the prince became a better partner lol
@@tabathaalshalhoub1653 I know I was so scared seeing that as a little girl and I didn't know why it bothered me. I felt rapunzel knew as little as me or even less than (less exposure than me). Also speaking of cowardly parents, in rumplestilskin the female main character does the same thing. It's like a trend in these fairytales. I watched the cartoon for "a coat/cloak of many colors" and it was literally a trying his hardest to sleep with his biological daughter because she looks like her mother.
@@maheenm.k1015 yeah, in the horror fairy tale version, Rapunzel’s dress gets too tight so the witch knows she’s pregnant but Rapunzel has nooooo idea. She’s like, I’m just getting fat? Wtf?! Maybe I’ll go on a diet?! Chill lady!
ETA: also, the prince heard her singing and was “going insane” trying to figure out how to get into the tower until he saw the witch call her name. And then he *disguises* his voice to sound like the witch. Ahhhh!!!
This is why stories that break from the norm matter. When your mother gaslights you constantly to mistrust your instincts AND you’re told by your family and “friends” that your parents love you and mean well / are making innocent mistakes, you really believe you MUST be an ungrateful, problem child. I really had to learn from a damn Disney movie that my mom had been abusing and manipulating me my whole life. Wow, what a surreal experience.
hope you're well today ! We often think we have to stay close to our family members but there are no exeption, sadly it's like anything else people can be toxic ..
The public absolutely reinforces them 9/10 until it literally gets so bad they can’t continue to. It has to smack them in the face before they say anything about it.
the public (i.e. friends, extended family, and peers) definitely play a role in helping the gaslighter but I do not believe it to be malicious. for many people encountering stuff like this is rare and they are thus ill-equipped to give advice.
@@sirichandanaakarapu378 I agree. It’s usually just ignorance and lack of experience with narcissism/abusers. But unfortunately because it isn’t part of the mainstream storytelling/shared experiences people are really unlikely to believe a person is harming their child in such a less obvious way than severe physical abuse.
@@RespectedProfessional that is true. People rly need to understand signs of emotional abuse
The worst villains are the parent villains; they're supposed to be the people that have your back the most, but when THEY'RE the asshole you have to look out for, then that just does a number on your psyche.
Scar who? Jafar what? Naw, MOTHER GOTHEL is the most heinous Disney villain of them all.
Frollo would also love to compete with her on this
@@hadbetterdays8118 That is true because Frollo took care of the main character, Quasimodo, and destroyed his self-worth.
In the original fairytales that the brothers Grimm collected, the heroines didn’t have evil stepmothers. They had evil mothers. This was too dark, so the stories were changed.
@@idekanymore8361 except you can see that he's being abusive to Qausimodo when with Gothel it's more passive which is so much creepier like she uses the whole guilt trips the whole 'I'm the bad guy 🤦🏻♀️' 'all I do is worry and this is what I get' kind of attitude which is tragic. But for me why I put Frollo here was because of his racism and his power abuse status with his self righteous attitude and never seeing any of the bad he does proves why he is in my oppion the beat villian
She was so good there's people nowadays, over a decade later, who still believe she loved Rapunzel in some way, people who watched the movie
This movie was very therapeutic for me to process my relationship with my mom and finding the courage to move out.
There's a great video about Tangled and gaslighting on the Cinema Therapy channel.
@@lkf8799 yeah I saw it and I love their channel !! I also loved the Invisible man video
Me too!
Same, except that I just moved out of a cult apartment today! They were trying to manipulate me just like Mother Gothel did!
Mother Gothel is such underrated. Along with Frollo, they are the only Disney villains who use emotional violence : they are so realistic.
Do you know that abusive parents never allowed their children to watch Tangled because they were afraid of Disney's representation of parental abuse.
Not to mention they both are blind to how bad they can be Frollo thinks he can do no wrong while her persecutes and burns down Paris. While Gothel kills and abuses those Rapunzel cares about
I don’t get why the video doesn’t discuss Frollo! But I’m only 10 mins in lol
Well, i agree, but a lot of abusive parents don't even know they're abusive and wouldn't ever find parallels in their and mother Gothels or Frollos behaviour. They have very low reflection skills.
Don't forget Lady Tremaine! She may not have engaged in gaslighting, but what she does to Cinderella is undeniably emotional violence.
I just remember my mom l o s i n g it when i as an 8yo child (not thinking of the implications) compared her to mother gothel
You gotta love how Eugene has a thing for brunettes a sign of true love beyond her golden hair
I really love that line. 🥰😌
Tangled is such a beautiful movie. We need more movies that teach young people about emotional abuse. 💛
How do you think Encanto handles that?
@@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254 I haven't seen it yet but I hear it does a fantastic job handling that same kind of subject matter.
@@AveryTalksAboutStuff It does! In my opinion though it has more to say about generational trauma and harmful family dynamics rather than overt abuse, like in Tangled.
@@raywilliams212 Agreed. Abuela treated her family in a way that was constricting and abusive, but her behavior is only touched on once and never focused on for what it truly was.
The movie did a fantastic job of explaining how she was traumatized and why she was motivated to treat her family the way she did, and they give the Madrigal family a new beginning to learn how to be non-toxic.
But I do kinda' wish that Abuela's abusive behavior and how it fed into the toxic family dynamics would have received a little more focus and explanation.
Mhm, narcisstic abuse sucks. It rlly fcks with ur head and makes u feel like ur going insane. Its scary how many are out there bro.. well idek if its common tbh, but I'm just so used to it. My dad, my mums ex, my grandparents etc etc. 🗿
I have a narcissistic mother too. The way the princess doubts herself, feeling great and then feeling like a bad child, because she got free, is so accurate. And how annoying her mother is is also accurate.
this movie reminds me of my sister. we watched that movie when she's a child. now she's going to college. time flies, but to me she's always my little sister who loves the lanterns scene:')
Aw, that’s so sweet. I can’t believe this movie came out over 10 years ago. Time flies.
At first I was afraid, you were gonna say she is a gaslighter. 😅 good that’s not the case!
returned from college to sternly tell my dad “you were wrong about the world. And you were wrong about me!” but then I also included the “and I will never let you use my hair again” part which admittedly muddled my point
😂😂
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Tangled is a BILLION times better than frozen and does not get the love or recognition it deserves! Honestly I remember how hesitant I was about Tangled when it first came out but it’s one of my absolute favorite movies
The songs in this movie are pretty frickin fire too. If it wasn't for "do you wanna build a snowman" I'd put this movies songs over frozen too, but snowman got me when I first heard it
I think frozen would have been better if the fact that the parents had screwed up had been addressed. They were told don't do this, and they proceeded to do exactly that.
Which when you take into account the second movie, where it's revealed who the mother was is even more fucked up. She came from people that lived side by side to magic and revered it, and she not only hid her identity but also considered magic dangerous suddenly?
There was a deleted. Scene where Elsa and Anna found plans their parents had made to create the special cuffs we see Elsa wear on frozen 1. So it's probably Disney coming between the artists creation and saying that won't sell well! Don write it
Pooh thank God ! I was about to write the same. No comparison ! Tangled is way better. One of my fav of the decade with Moana
I wish we could have a Tangled 2 like we had a Frozen 2...In Tangled the protagonist (Rapunzel, Eugene) were so lovely and funny, Gothel was atrocious and scary, Pascal is cute (and WAY funnier than Olaf). Tangled will still be number 1 in my heart.
I dont understand why you have to make it a competition. I have an amazing younger sister: Frozen spoke to me bec. of that. It was fun and new (sisterly love as the central of the narrative) and the songs bopped.
Tangled is more traditional in plot: she is more or less saved by a man, so ofc. it didnt impact the culture as much.
I bet, other people pick the movie that they relate to the most too, not because it's objectively the "best". Both can exist, there are enough room at the top for everybody's favorite Disney princess movie.
I remember watching Tangled in cinema with my mum, sister and nieces. And when Mother Knows Best came on, I watched in horror at basically my whole childhood and adolescence being presented back to me in Disney song form. It wasn't new to me, but to see it laid out so bare on the big screen shook me, especially since I was sat next to my mum at the time.
Mother gothel is a wonderful representation of a narcissist. They use you to feel better about themselves and they convince you that you need them. My father would never compliment me, he would push me down daily, calling me dog, slut, idiot, inferior being. But he would brag to his colleagues and friends how smart and great his daughter is. When I left home at 22, after years of mental and physical abuse, my dad told me "you will be crawling back, you will never make it alone". But I was a grown woman, with a steady job, and I could support myself through my studies. But my father didn't want me to be independent. He didn't want me to leave home because he would lose his grip on me.
I'm so happy that you got out and are living your best life 😭 I'm literally going through the same thing rn and I'm 22
My mom used to call me a stupid donkey but would also brag to her friends about me
While also showing my younger sister favouritism
Tangled is still the best Disney animation in my opinion. It's not just a retelling of classic Rapunzel fairy tale but a deeply touching movie. I always found Rapunzel so relatable, this is why she is my favorite princess. I'm sure we all can relate to her at some level. As for me, I'm kind of a person who is really scared of leaving her comfort zone and the past years, my life has complately changed. I moved on a different country, started getting used to things that I freaked out about before. I broke out of my shelf, with the help of my own Eugene of course ❤️
This movie helped me realize a lot of stuff about my mother, and began my journey to realising that I indeed, never was the worst child ever
I hate Mother Gothel more than I hate any other Disney villain because of how evil and unsympathetic she is. If you notice the ONLY time that Gothel says anything nice to her is when she’s talking directly to Rapunzel’s hair. I feel like I appreciate this movie so much more after learning about psychology.
From what I heard, the Tangled tv series makes Mother Gothel even worse (i.e. more hateable) once you learn more about her in the show.
For me she ties with Frollo from hunchback of Notre dame. They both gaslight and mistreat the one they have although Frollo only cares for Qausi because of his debt of killing his mother
I think Mother Gothel is one of the most evil and hateful Disney villains because her abuse feels so real. I grew up with an emotionally abusive family member and what they did and say to me is almost exactly what MG says to Rapunzel
@@nbac26 Also, what Mother Gothel did to someone in the tv series is just terrible!
@@hadbetterdays8118 Frollo was awful in the animated movie. Worse than Gothel given that he was basically Gothel if she were in a position of power. I do sort of dislike Frollo a little less but only because the Disney theatrical musical version makes him an imperfect guy who is trying to be holy but with obsessive religious beliefs (musical Frollo never killed Quasi’s mom in the play instead Quasi’s was the son of Frollo’s ne’er do well brother and his gypsy lover were Quasi’s parents and they died as a result of hedonism) and Quasi was less mistreated. I think that’s why I hate Gothel more. There’s nothing to ever say Gothel had any redemptive qualities in Tangled. She’s not even suggested to be mentally F-ed up like animated Frollo was with his adverse reaction to perverse sexual lust and religious obsession with how sinful everyone around him was.
One of the scenes in Tangled I find most interesting and disturbing is when mother gothel is about to fall out of the tower and Rapunzel reaches for her-showcasing regret and distress at the sign of her captor falling to her death. Mother Gothel was able to manipulate and gas light her so well with her subtle abusive tactics that Rapunzel feels sympathy for a woman who kidnapped her, gagged her, and stabbed the love of her life right before her very eyes.
Or maybe she just didn’t want her to die? Pretty much nobody would like to directly witness someone die right before their very eyes.
@@twindrill2852 that might be true as well, but I think Rapunzel genuinely felt sympathy for Gothel in that moment. People can still love and be attached to their abusers even after they become fully aware that they've been mistreated and need to cut off that person. In the end it's hard to just forget and toss aside 18 years of believing that the only person you've ever known is the only person who will love and protect you
It is also cause she is the only mother she knows.
It's no wonder that so many people in this generation (gen z, but I guess millennials too, from what I've heard) find this version of Rapunzel extremely relatable.
Many adults from the older generations who raised/looked after millennials and gen z openly admit to the fact that they are/were overly protective of their children in extreme ways. Over the years, with the way they tried to keep us away from the rest of the world and exaggerate how dangerous life will be on our own because we're all just too stupid to think for ourselves, they are the kings and queens of gaslighting.
A lot of our parents were overly protective and strict, and they've admitted themselves that they kept us inside a lot more than their own parents did, they refused to teach us basic skills that would help us become prepared for the real world, and scared us as children with talks of "stranger danger" in dramatic ways. "No, you can't go outside alone." "No, you can't walk to school alone or with friends." "You can't go anywhere without contacting me via phone every 30 minutes." "You can't go trick or treating without me." "No, I won't teach you how to cook, defend yourself, fix a toilet, drive, or pay the bills. Leave me alone." "Shut up and go watch TV/TH-cam. I'd rather you stay inside than me having to take you to a park." "Let me track your phone, so that I'll know where you are 24/7." "You wouldn't survive as an adult without me." "You NEVER pay attention, and no, I won't even attempt to teach you to do so. You'll just never move out." "No, you can't go out with friends."
I think that many of them didn't do this because they genuinely think that we couldn't handle it as kids, but to make sure we don't learn to take care of ourselves, or so that we are unconfident in our abilities, and are less inclined to move away, so that we stay with our soul sucking and codependent mommy and daddy to fulfill their egos.
They actively make sure we can't gradually learn to become independent at a healthy pace. Then, once we got older, they call us "incompetent", "naive", "dumb", "anxious", and so on. They make sure to let us know as we're teens/young adults that we'll "never make it" and use our lack of experience to reinforce these ideas, and yet they take zero responsibility for deliberately making sure of this when we were children. They want their kids to grow up feeling unconfident and anxious all the time, so that we come back home and control us. They knew what they were doing. It wasn't out of "love" or paranoia for a lot of cases. It's about control. This is why so many young people feel anxious all the time about so many things, and they don't have the confidence to do anything on their own. Take our resources and freedom as children, then shame us for not being independent or not knowing about the real world enough to function as adults, reinforcing the idea that we're all hopelessly "dumb" and won't make it, so that we can't break away.
For some parents, it may be a genuine fear due to their own childhood trauma or their current dangerous environment, but a lot of these helicopter parents love to brag that they turned out fine with their more lenient parents and came out healthier and happier than their own kids, so I'm convinced that those parents in particular know that their extreme methods are bad and are purposefully trying to keep us from being healthy and happy adults. If they know that being too "protective" is bad for their child and that there's no harm in teaching their children important skills and giving them a little bit of freedom, then the only reason they'd still continue to keep their children stunted is because of their own ulterior motives, otherwise they would know to find a balance.
We should demonize these types of parents, shame them. I'm so tired of their children being bashed constantly while the parents receive nothing but sympathy and praise for being so "loving" for being the manipulative parents that they are. It guess a smart way to abuse your children. You ruin these kids' future and strip them of their childhood while looking like a "good" parent, having strangers feel sorry for you and congrate you for "caring" so much for them. Parents who know that what they're doing is extreme (and you can tell these parents know, because they shame their own children for not knowing how to do certain things and brag about how tough they are because they weren't "coddled"), but continue to hurt their kids on purpose deserve a lot more criticism than they get right now. I feel no sympathy for them when they do deal with the very little criticism that they get. They are very creepy people and deserve every bad insult coming to them.
If these people are truly doing this because of paranoia, then why do they go on about how their own lenient childhood was great and made them tougher than the younger generation? I have no doubt that some people parent like this because of PTSD or paranoia, but let's be realistic here. Most of these people had a normal childhood and turned out fine, and they know it. They therefore know that their parenting method is excessive and borderline abusive. The parents who are paranoid and truly think they're doing the best for their child aren't the same people who are shaming millennials and gen zers for growing up sheltered or making fun of their own children for not having a normal childhood.
This isn’t entirely true for all of those generations, as a member of gen z I can speak for myself and say my parents raised me and taught me to cook, to defend myself, etc and a lot of the other things you said. They actively encouraged me to do stuff to support myself. But they also said some of the stuff about being careful around strangers as it’s a genuine fear. So I don’t know if your analysis is entirely accurate.
For some maybe but not all.
That being said if that was your experience that’s totally valid - I don’t mean to invalidate just offering a different perspective
I feel like the only reason why parents grew more protective of their children and as you stated monitored their children and stranger danger is a main reason because well simply put it's all too true there are extremes and scenarios that go too far of helicopter parents and Munchausen by proxy syndrome however from my own experience and reading about the childhoods and freedoms of previous generations and true stories like " I know why the caged bird sings " resonate way too often with several older female victims in my family, to be honest, I can't blame them and I don't think it's even the fact the world is getting more dangerous rather I feel now these tormented little children who had such freedoms were neglected and preyed on when there weren't enough laws to protect children from the abuse I think that made the next generations of parents became more proactive in protecting their children.
I know this only b/c of hearing how b/c of my grandmothers' negligence and the openness of the neighborhood and hospitality to strangers men included it was only then both Maya Angelou and my mother included became victims to CSA or rape in simple terms and this is only the tip of the iceberg hearing about my father being exposed to drugs working in the fields when he was underaged and almost losing his life to it in his 20s until he got help and just reading over and over again in autobiographicals how children were to be seen not heard and it wasn't until the 1940s and 1950s at least here in the u.s.a that child psychology became more known and adults realized " children had feelings" and weren't just valuable until after they grew up and had a job.
Well, it really puts into perspective how terribly young people were treated back in the 20th century and earlier on, and if you don't want to take my word for it just look at any classic folk tale or Grimms fairy tale original and oftentimes you'll find children were treated horribly as a reflection of the times from being targets of torture incest and slavery its a wonder the previous generation made it this far and I suppose this may be my personal bias but I'm grateful we had those stranger danger PSA's I'm grateful how at a young age as sad as it made me that I needed to know the dangers in the world and how to not be exploited by merciless people.
B/c a long time ago it was encouraged for people in my mother and fathers time to let go and be quiet to survive and b/c of what they told me I avoided so many awful situations from facing creepy old guys staring at me at the age of ten no matter what I wore and being targeted by jealous people at work who wanted to bring me down a peg for competition.
Well in short even though I know the world isn't perfect I'm glad I live in a time where we see videos like these exposing truths and generational traumas from so many years ago finally allowed to be released into the air to be honest I know there is a real problem with the youth today and I understand that there are several facets where children can be exploited by their parents and genuine narcissism breaking down kids in a psychological way those are not good traits in parents.
However, at the same time, it's experience history and films like Encanto that also show me how every generation has suffered and inevitably mistakes will be made what I like though about these newer aspects of protecting children treating them as individuals and preserving their life in a way not only makes things better for future generation but also in a way releases past traumas and stigmas from previous generations who faced it in their childhood.
And though I can't speak for generations as a whole all I can say is it's nice to know I had people who cared in my life and it makes me sad to know back then and even now not every child has that so while I see valid points in your concerns I think there needs to be a fine balance between protections and freedoms of the child.
B/c while children should learn to grow as individuals b/c their brains take a bit to fully develop in the decision making process to me anyways some guidance seems necessary especially when truths are finally being exposed of predators traffickers and other horrid things I don't know your situation and I'm sorry to know you feel this way and have gone through such struggling and disheartening emotions I hope things get better for you and know that you are perfectly capable and able to get by.
Anxieties PTSD are a real struggle I can't speak entirely for the mental health of my generation (z) or those younger than I what I can say though it's not over yet being young is hard but somehow I think we'll prevail and I wish the best for you on your journey and I have to say from your well thought out words and self-awareness in your statement all I'll say is I think you'll go places you seem to have a good head on your shoulders you think for yourself and are efficient in calling out the predators in parents hiding in plain sight much like Gothel thank you for sharing your thoughts I found it to be provoking enough to help me get a firm grasp on my perceptions and those outside of my own and the realities that lay ahead.
Wow you just wrote my life out there .. 👀👀
Dude typed a whole essay😭😭
@@lilzennywockhardt Yes, yes I did.
It's so scary that Mother Gothel was just pretending to be protective of Rapunzel when she actually didn't care for her one bit, it was all about the hair. I watched tangled at 7 and now that I'm 17 it's still creepy to think about that
Rapunzel was always my favorite fairytale growing up, so I was super excited for this movie to come out. I remember the overwhelming feeling of watching this movie and deeply relating to the gaslighting experience she has. I’ve since detached myself completely from my parents and all the other people in my life who have spent my life gaslighting me. I am happier and more mentally healthy than I have ever been.
Proud of u and i wish u all the best🎀
Tangled is easily one of my favorite Disney animated films, and as much I enjoyed Frozen, what Tangled did much better than Frozen was it's steady pacing, character development for Rapunzel and Flynn/Eugene and an awesome villain in Mother Gothel.
Lastly, it's worth noting that both Mother Gothel from _Tangled_ and Dr. Facilier from _The Princess and the Frog_ were the last traditional Disney Main Villains before Walt Disney Animation Studios decides to have their later animated films take the Pixar route by either having Twist Villains (e.g. King Candy, Hans, Callaghan, Bellwether, Te Ka), No Villain but an internal conflict (e.g. Encanto, Frozen II, Ralph Breaks the Internet) or those that are antagonists but not actual Villains (e.g. Namaari).
It simply cannot be described in words the kind of damage a parent like this can do to you... and how painful the whole process of uncovering the truth is... no human being deserves to be treated this way...
I didn’t really like princess stories growing up, my favorite movies were Mulan, and Hercules, I just didn’t resonate with the princess and prince narrative. Tangled came out when I was 18, and I happened to decide to watch and I loved it so much! It’s only now that I realize why and I actually cried pretty hard watching this. Thank you for these videos, I absolutely adore your analysis and channel!
I never understood why Rapunzel was my all time favourite, but I get it now: the gaslighting mother, being trapped in your own mind, seeking your truth while it might be painful and discovering what is healthy...it just really resonates with me (and I too would love to fall in love and grow together just as Rapunzel and Eugene did)
The mother daughter relationship in this movie hit a bit too close to home. If only I'd meet my Flynn Rider as well 😅
You don't need him . Seek therapy, seek help. No one can do it for u. It just takes a phone call (which is extremely hard but you can do it). Life is too short
Dude, same. I jokingly told friends that the movie is my origin story (and they instantly got it) :D
I support you finding a sweet snarky romantic partner.
@@ssissigui8846 I second this. In real life it would be rosy for a 3 months tops until the trauma from having a mother like Gothel starts to shine its ugly light in the relationship. So yes get therapy. Even if you find your Flynn, not just for your sake but for his too, get therapy. We all carry our own baggage, that's fine, but we should try our best to not let that wear our partners down.
@@ssissigui8846 I agree. Although I was able to realize that the whole gaslighting in my family before I met my boyfriend, the trauma still affects the relationship. I am glad that he brings me to therapy and now I am getting better. You gonna pick yourself up first before seeking love.
Tangled actually helped me realize Mother Gothel and my dad had similar traits. Now that I’m a mother I heavily use the movie and my experiences on what not to do with my own daughter. I have a lot of generational trauma to unlearn, but I’m glad to start somewhere
One thing I disagree with the fans is the fact that some of them are making comparisions beetween Abuela Alma (from Encanto) and Gothel. This is just so wrong! Abuela Alma was misguided. Her fear of loosing the miracle wich protected her and her family from outsiders made her obsessed with perfection and made her create high expectations for her offspring. But she loved her family and never wanted to harm them. She just handled it the wrong way and she was able to recognize her errors and change her behavior at the end of the movie.
Gothel on the other hand is a selfish monster who kidnapped a baby just to make herself eternally young. It was all for her own benefit. She never really loved Rapunzel. Ever gesture of "caring" she showed to Rapunzel was only a way to manipulate her into staying in that tower. It was all about the hair and the magical properties it had. You can even see that when Flynn cutted Rapunzel's hair and the healing powers were gone, Gothel completely forgot about Rapunzel, Flynn and even the hair and went straight to the mirror, showing that the only thing wich mattered for her was herself. Rapunzel was only important to her because her powers kept Gothel alive, healthy and beautiful.
To me Abuela Alma represents all the traumatized old people who lived harsh lives and became harsh because of that, putting high expectations on their children. While Gothel represents narcissistic parents, kidnappers, paedophilles and all the ones who exploit children for their own benefit and pleasure.
There's no comparision beetween them! Abuela was misguided. Gothel was evil.
well said!
True
yes. Abuela wasn't all evil, she lost the love of her life and had to raise 3 Kids on her own. that dosen't excuse her, but still, mother gothel is just evil.
"She led her kingdom with all the grace and wisdom of her parents." Says the guy who narrowly escaped execution without due process.
Lol.
Not the point and I adore this movie but that always makes me laugh.
I've always wondered why Gothel didn't just tell Rapunzel her birthday was a different day. It probably wouldn't have stopped the curiosity of why a bunch of floating lights appeared, but it wouldn't make it as personal.
This film made me realise what my mother was doing to me
also that Gothel's room in the tower has a door while Rapunzel's only has a curtain
Holy shit, I never spotted that before
Great video. I am reminded of what Frollo did to Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and kind surprised it wasn't mentioned here. Then again, Quasi wasn't a Disney Princess and Frollo was a very powerful man. But he was powerful because he was so persuasive and manipulative.
Yes exactly! Good point.
I just realized almost every Disney princess has to overcome being gaslit
thats the patriarchal way :D
this was such an excellent video! the fact that you focused on both narcissistic abuse & gaslighting AND enlightenment is extremely impressive
Thank you. That was wonderful. Tangle has been my favorite animated film since the first time I watched it. A heroine with a frying pan, the evil fake mother with no magical powers, just her passive aggressive manipulations, and not one, but two animal characters that do not speak a word-but we still know exactly what they are thinking. Thank you for such a great and timely examination.
This is why Tangled remains relevant. Not only the music and the animation are fantastic, the struggle here is way too real.
On the flip side, you have Quasimodo and Frollo.
Frollo treats Quasimodo terribly but ultimately believes actually believes that he is a good person. Gothel uses Rapunzel knowingly and doesn't care about morality at all. What makes Frollo far more dangerous than Gothel is that OTHERS also believe Frollo's lies. Gothel has no power on her own but Frollo can persuade people's views on religion, lust, and genocide.
oh i like this compare and contrast.
I was gaslighted very much the way it's portrayed in this movie. Very accurate and very important to show this to kids.
The unrealistic part of the movie is that 1. Rapunzel is not an emotional wreck and 2. that she gets attached to a good guy instead of another gaslighter. Been there... 🙄
I have a gaslighting parent and the consequence of that is that I ended up in several other abusive relationships (both romantic ones and friendships). You're right - this stuff tends to have a domino effect. I'm only recently getting out of the pattern as an adult it it's crazy looking back and seeing how much I let people get away with!
In the animated series of Tangled she gets super unhealthily attached to the first girl she ever meets and insists on making her best friend. It is more nuanced than the girl (her name is Cassandra) being toxic ( there is a rich background with her character with a twist that relates to Rapunzel specifically...no spoilers), but I find it interesting that Rapunzel becomes so fixated on maintaining this friendship when there is tension and evidence that forcing a close friendship isn't healthy for either of them. In a way Rapunzel has to learn to let go of something she wants when it is not in the person's best interest. Something Gothel was too narcissistic to ever recognize another human being needing from someone who had more power in the relationship, showing how she is different from Gothel.
Because an interesting aspect about Rapunzel's friendship with this girl is that being a princess Rapunzel has more power in their friendship because friend Cassandra was assigned to be her lady-in-waiting and therefore her servant. One of the instances that created tension in their friendship was when Rapunzel had to make a judgment her best friend Cassandra was against and Rapunzel had to pull rank to get her to comply. Which was a big deal because up until that point Rapunzel had always treated her best friend Cassandra as an equal. This put a huge strain on their friendship and high lighted how their was a power imbalance between them that sours their friendship.
Not every person who's faced Gaslighting attaches themselves to gaslighters
Has anyone ever noticed that whenever Gothel has anything nice to say about Rapunzel she looks at and/or strokes her hair?
Exactly. When she’s a little girl mother gothel calls her “flower” implying how transactional the relationship is to gothel
I remember watching tangle and thinking well Mother Gothel is the least evil villain in Disney, it wasn't until years later that I realize it was because I have been gaslit all through my life by family members
I appreciate this channel so much. Literally in and of it self it helps me let go of the gaslighting i have experienced as a girl. I was always given the feeling that as a girl or woman the possibilities of my dreams are limited and that i just am less than. Seeing a channel like this that always gives a female perspective and comments on the female experience and therefore giving it value, has been such a huge help i cant even describe it. Thank you The Take for all you do!
Thank you for this. Rapunzel is my favorite princess and I love when people actually pay attention to the story and realize how deep it actually is .
Honestly, this movie helped me realize that my own mother was emotionally abusive.
Maybe there’s a gender component to this but Disney wise, this happened to Quasimodo in the Hunchback of Notre Dame too.
Yep Frollo is sick with obsession and his ' I can do no wrong' attitude which mirrors Gothel. Plus they both turn a blind eye to what they do
I was gaslit by an ex before escaping at age 17 😭 (15 years ago)
These lessons are VERY important for women to learn! I just wish I did something about the ex abuser because he ended up abusing two more women before finally being charged\imprisoned for 7 years for kidnapping, and assault.
(༎ຶ ෴ ༎ຶ) Not that I had enough proof to do anything against him other than embarrass and traumatize myself more....but something on his record probably would have REALLY helped the next person trying to charge, he may have even been given MORE time to serve. Especially since it was basically the same situation but she had physical scars to actually proof the abuse.
Tangled was deep, very relatable. One of my favorite Disney movies and Mandy Moore's voice is amazing!
I absolutely adore Mandy Moore's performance as Rapunzel. She brings so much to the table in her characterization.
this movie reminds me a lot of the relationship between me and my father he is a narcissist and i have been out of contact with them for 3 years for my own safety
Then she uses her hair (instead of it using her) in the television series which I highly recommend watching for Tangled lovers! The show takes place before the wedding short and also explores Rapunzel's trauma further by how her experience affects the way she treats others and how others interact with her. (Tangled: The Series)
This explains why I experienced panic attacks after my psychologically abusive ex broke up with me. He convinced me that the outside was was terrible and that he was a safe place.
Parents doing this is especially fucked up, it breaks you down so that you don't have any self-worth
I hope that other people that have been through this too are now doing better; the effects of gaslighting take a lot of time and effort to unlearn but the process is more than possible 💜💜💜
Thank you so much for the vid, it really helps 🧡🧡
The different way in which Mother Gothel and Flynn Rider react to Rapunzel telling them about the floating lights already reflect a lot about their characters and intentions. Mother Gothel replies “You mean the stars” as an affirmation. She knows that’s not what Rapunzel is talking about, but she utters the lie patronisingly as if it were true.
Flynn instead asks, “You mean the floating lights?”. Not only is Flynn answering her with the truth, but he replies politely by giving her the chance to correct him in case he got her wrong. Liars and manipulators know they can control others if they hide their dishonesty with an appearance of confidence and logic.
Given the significance of her hair being cut it’s kind of telling that the entire Disney marketing usually includes her long blond hair - they even found a way to have it grow back in the animated series. Because a Disney Princess can not possibly have short brown hair.
I view it as him unshackling her and representing true love
Uh...that's a stretch. I don't think that is what is being said at all.
@@Passions5555 What would you say is the message being send when they deliberately market her with long blond hair despite her short brown hair symbolising her liberation? Knowing Disney it definitely is about money.
CinemaTherapy did a really good review of this topic as well, talking about her being gaslit. I relate. I was gaslit by my mother for years, too. Abused and thought it was my fault.
I think more focus should've been put on how Mother Gothel herself is affected by society, society telling women that their only value is in their beauty and that beauty depends on how young you are. Instead of seeing her as a mere villain, it's also effective to address society's war on older women as a result of patriarchal structures that stem from wanting women to be young, pure and naive.
Lots of Disney villains are old female characters looking for or being envious of beauty and youth, blaming them for being "vain", rather than recognizing how society made them that way.
wait that's actually so true i never thought of it that way..
some age gracefully also some are awkward or gangly then grow into their features but yea women are blamed for being vain/caring how we look but judged so harshly for not looking a certain way
This would be an interesting topic although Gothel can never be forgiven you can't deny her obsession of societal standards does show how hypocritical society is
@@hadbetterdays8118 horrible! women pitted against each other, told to not care how we look yet are shamed so harshly and hated for how we look! it needs to stop! all the bullying!
@@oooh19 yeah you also should mention how female mythological beings whether they be nymphs, or worshipped like aphrodite and athena seem to never age which somewhat does bother me does this say that if a woman have to be hit in a never aging youthfulness just to be seen as more valuable. It really shows you why it is important that we put aging women in films like we allowed Sylvester Stallone to give us 5 Rambo movies and 7 movies with Rocky yet most women find it hard to get acting gigs at the age he's at. All I wish it to normalize aging so girls and young women can see better value in it
Disney’s Bolt also has elements of the Cave Allegory.
Fantastic video, I learned a lot
Mother Gothel is a chilling villain. Unfortunately most of us know at least one person like her.
The magic of mother Gothel is the third person perspective telling us bluntly that Gothel is a Villain. This makes it very hard to misinterpret. Unfoturnetly today more then ever people TRY to misinterpret the villain. Also ANYONE can be the victim of gassliting.
Can you do Intergenerational Trauma in Encanto, the the Black Sheep, and Familial Favoritism (and why Alma and Isabela should apologize).
Three Disney Characters that remind me of Monica Lewinsky: Rapunzel, Ariel, and Bruno Madrigal.
I have always seen the Rapunzel story but Tagled in particular as an allegory for mental health- so it was really cool hearing you thoughts! 😊
instant bonus points to this video for calling him Eugene and not Flynn 👏 I love this movie
17:55 I realized that Mother Gothel used a flower for immortality and later on she kidnapped Rapunzel, and started calling her "Flower." Like lots of people have said earlier, Mother Gothel loves Rapunzel's hair (which gives her immortality) and *not* Rapunzel, so she calls her "Flower"
Okay, I love, love, love this channel and tangled, but the cave allegory really isn't about coming to realize that a person needs to escape an abusive relationship-- no matter how good a message that is, and I agree with it. The cave allegory is basically a hypothetical about "What if everything we see were really like these shadows in a cave, and there's a stronger truth for abstract thoughts or objects? I.e., every cup we drink out of is in itself a cup, but what if there are just merely shadows of the true, ultimate concept of a cup? Wake up sheeple, nothing is really what we think it is, only shadows of concepts, as if we were still all in that cave!"
I just sorta had to get that out there man
It’s so well done. Deserves much more credit.
and you know what makes this movie so good? they didn't have to shove the story down our throats. they didn't have to tell you rapunzel was being manipulated, they gave you clues (albeit, blatant ones at times) and let you break things down yourself.
They're sometimes blanted, but there's still people who think Gothel loved Rapunzel, so there's that
just recently did i notice how much my own mothers been manipulating me my entire life. How warped my perception of platonic and romantic love has become because of things she’s told me. How i’ve blamed myself for so many things, how i second guess everything i do but it’s because of how i’ve been raised. It’s tough but after 20, almost 21 years of being trapped in her “tower” im finally allowing myself to let go.
This movie is one of my favourites and the more I grow up the more things I notice about it and I like it
I love Rapunzel as a fairy tale. so Disney's version blew me away and I relate to her so much because were both creative but wow it got even more real that it's too relatable when it's a bad mother and daughter relationship since my mom was exactly like that.
Repunzel narrates how i was treated when i was a child, and a still a little as an adult. and it does carry to adult hood. I can testify this.
"I see a strong, confident, beautiful young lady. Oh look, you're here too!"
One of the best shade thrown in Disney.
This video was so deep it literally brought me to tears. I never looked at this movie this way. Wow. I am blown away!
I had trouble telling people I felt trapped with my ex, even though we didn't live together and were practically two separate people. "Why didn't you leave?" To me, Tangled was the perfect example of how much impact gaslighting has on the way you view yourself and the world around you and how long it takes to slowly dismantle this twisted version of reality. Gaslighting means you no longer trust yourself and the way you view things and Tangled really hits this home. It's an amazing movie.
6:15 the visual cue for the gaslight just hammers it further.
I recently had a therapist that recommended me the movie "The secret", I told her a few sessions before that I don't like that philosophy, it causes me a raw reaction cause it's something I've been doing a big part of my life, but it proved wrong and unhealthy for my mental health, so I left that therapist with many doubts, after seen this I fell that maybe I wasn't overreacting
A beautiful way of discussing the process of Awakening. Beautifully done! Thank you
It's not a lie that the world is dangerous, even more so than we like to acknowledge, but: there is no freedom in a perfectly safe world.
"It's more affordable than other therapy" yeah but the site makes no claims to whether anyone you speak to is an actual professional, so...
I mean, the site does? Like, actually read the terms and conditions instead of making assumptions based on 5 year old youtube drama
Annnnnd, after the need to remove her hair causing all of that, Cassandra just undid the need to remove the cool symbolism, and it became Rapz’s #1 weapon.
Also, I think this movie was one of the last few dark things that was made for kids.
I used to watch Rapunzel on repeat since my father would leave me alone in my room all day. I related to Rapunzel’s feelings of being trapped and having an active imagination that yearned for something bigger…especially as I got older. As a child I was afraid of my father and would never dare disobey him. As I got older (around the time rapunzel came out) I became more curious and wanted to call out my dad’s neglectful/verbally abusive/controlling behavior. Just as rapunzel eventually stands up to her mom in the movie. Unfortunately the only way I thought I could escape my father was to end my life. After some suicidal ideation and self harm my school saw and sent me to my first mental hospital at 13. Long story short; That’s when my father finally lost custody of me. And I got to see the floating lights. ✨😉
I'd love to see a video on tangled the series, and how it serves as the perfect sequel.
I didn't realize that was happening in the movie when I first saw it. It's sad because I was so desensitized to what Gothel was actually doing to Rapunzel. I only thought Gothel was just being over protective since that was how my mom was. It wasn't until I saw the Cinema Therapy guys talk about how Gothel was gaslighting Rapunzel and it hit me, oh my, that was what my mom did my whole life and still continues to do. It's quite sad.
I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this but I really feel like Hunchback of Notre Dame should of been mentioned for this video particularly in how Frollo treats Quasimodo throughout the film and how he was a precursor to mother gothel albeit a more sinister version. People have already made a comparison between Quasimodo and Rapunzel so I was surprised it was never mentioned. Still enjoyed the video but yeah implying that mother gothel was the first Disney villain to gaslight when Frollo is right there felt weird to me
@TylerWynne There's an AWESOME tribute video here, pairing footage from "Tangled" with the song "Out There". I think you'll really like it. (1/22/2022)
Hans is such a LAME villain compared to Gothel : this is the reason why I think Tangled is better than Frozen. The villain was so interesting and scary in Tangled (compared to Hans who was the antagonist for like what ? 15 minutes of the movie...)
I was amazed of how they changed the original story but welcome it since it hit me way home from my relationship with my mom.
I love the content on this channel, but this might be one of the most impactful analyses I've seen here. Well done!
fun fact emotionally immature parents/people often get mistaken for narcs when they arent...in this case MG is a def narc ...she fully knows what shes doing
TheTake you guys should collab with Cinema therapy
I've been waiting for The Take talking about Tangled for YEARS, thank you queens!!!! ❤️
Definitely thinking about the Britney Spears vs. Spears family phenomenon and how it relates to this concept.
Cinema therapy thanks take
This is why I love Tangled. There's so much in the movie that feels so relatable (also the songs are catchy and the characters are fun)
Not me realizing my mom has gaslighted me my whole life 🥴
I love Tangled so much