A lot of information regarding the contest, the pistol testing and etc from those who were actually involved in the process. th-cam.com/video/bXuQ9VuG0sY/w-d-xo.html
You are wrong...the only tamper prof part is the slide, the take down pin to take out FCU is not tamper prof at all. the limited run guns have all the coating as well as the FDE controls.
My understanding is Mac in a Marine and he's using Grunt as a term of endearment. I was a Combat Medic for 22 years with five overseas tours to OIF/OEF. In my opinion he/we have earned the right make a few Grunk jokes. When I heard the Army's choice in the SIG 320, I thought the same thing 😆.
As grunt I’m not offended, come on you know we would take anything and everything we can when bored. That is why the trackers never had tools in the AAVs.
Hey mac love the channel, I work for sig as an assembler and have built the real m17s and I can tell you the slides are different in the way the rear sight plate looks and mounts to the slide, if you have a commemorative m17 the slide and sight plate are exactly the same but the commercial one you have here is basically a full-size version of the 320 xcarry slides and sight plates. the problem you had with the mag not fully seating in when you put the slide in is because of the safety takedown bar that drops the sear so you don't fire the weapon to disassemble it, that bar has a nub that catches on the slide catch lever when its not holding the slide back, if you lock the slide back always you'll never have that issue which also serves as a mag safety kind of, so you cant have a loaded mag and try to disassemble the gun
I also was not a Sig p320 fan. But I absolutely love my M17. Got it soon after release and didnt have a single issue with it. Fits my hand great (I'm a bigger guy). Great recoil control. Good feel for intuitive shooting. Accurate. Fantastic mid-price pistol.
DeltaPoint Pro is bulletproof. Tested at 30,000 cycles at 5,000Gs, 60 ft under water. before it was released It is a beast. Easy to change the battery (even automatically extracts the battery for you with a magnet) Clicks adjustments, Designed for special forces -CAG/ Delta Force. The designer set down with the guys talked and ate with them and listen to stories and learn what exactly this top-notch guys what. (I know the designer - Daniel Campean who has a patent on this.) This is an awesome product.
@@mdredheadguy1979 A really good video is actually 10-8 performance's on gun finishes. The topic is 1911s but I'm sure a finish is a finish. Type "10-8 finishes" into the search bar and it's the top result.
I have an M17 and it is easily my favorite handgun I’ve ever had and or shot. I will I’ve never had an issue with mine, besides some issues with not fully wanting to go into battery, but besides that this handgun is the best handgun I’ve ever seen, had and used lol. You go get you one papa gunsandgear
To be fair, the Army selected the Delta Point Pro's flange pattern for the M17, not the sight unit itself. And if the flange pattern is part of the TDP, which the Army owns, then they could easily go to any sight manufacturer and have them make a model of sight to fit the M17 (an Aimpoint ACRO, for example).
@@mlevans066 I Don't have a link. Not really possible to demonstrate that something didn't happen. If I see an Army stock photo of an M17 with a red dot on it, you'll be the first to know
SOCOM officially selected RMRs for their Glocks, even though they've been running dots unofficially for a while. soldiersystems.net/2018/08/16/trijicon-awarded-7-6-mil-for-ussocom-miniature-aiming-system-day-optics-program/
Good review. The thing some people don’t realize is what a red dot sight brings to the table. When you get old and need glasses the target image down range can be really blurred, depending on your vision. To the point you can’t get a consistent sight picture. Red dot sights solve that problem since both the dot and target appear to be in the same focal plane. Since your eyes are focused down range, you have better peripheral vision and situational awareness. The solution for cleaning weapons light lenses is Mister Clean Magic Erasers. And cleaning the lens ASAP after firing. Wet the sponge, wipe the lens, and your done.
@Moonshield23 & Jo Quin Thanks. we are a very young republic when comparing with USA, but the population has matured in the last decade, what still impressed me was the 47 million who still voted for Haddad, are with Stockholm syndrome is what I suspect.
@@squidy4082 Once you try and engaged to take down the lever the magazine cannot be installed one that is applied nor can it be installed after you reassemble the slide until the magazine catch is forced up that releases the link in the safety allowing you to load magazines after you’ve reassemble the gun
@@heaterfamily so will it be like for every mag? I love the m17 but the finish it’s terrible and I wonder if they fixed it because it had already happened on other sigs so idk
Brutal honesty, I love it. Completely agree with MAC 100% on the Army’s choice of red dots. Although 99% of the end user will not be issued a red dot, it still blows my mind they neglected to think of using a system so easily compromised in an austere environment.
Re; 5:00 - I believe the MHS contract specified the slide needed to be cut for the DPP footprint and bolt pattern but unless I missed a significant announcement I don't believe the Army has awarded a contract to Leupold or any other optics manufacturer for the optic that will go on the M17/18 pistols. My understanding is they will either single-source-solicit Leupold (they haven't yet), or they will put out another request to multiple optics manufacturers with a request for options that all fit the DPP footprint. Which could lead to industry standardization for pistol optic mounting - No more universal cuts with adapter plates, everyone's optic just fits the same footprint
I read recently SOCOM awarded Trijicon a pretty big contract for the RMR Type 2, but they didn't say what weapons they planned to use them with in the article I found.
I have the Commemorative M17 as well. It didn't cost anything to get the challenge coin and signed cert of authenticity. The wooden box cost around $140 now. I didn't by the wooden case. I just left it in the cardboard box. The commemorative is a safe queen. I have and shoot the P320 M17 commercial version regularly. I haven't had a single issue with my M17. The commemorative version comes with a significantly better coating.
Tim, thank you for finally honestly acknowledging the reason why I don't have an "open" red dot sight on my handgun. Even on my rifle which has a "closed" red dot sight I have that sight attached with a quick mount and iron back up sights. I have been in situations where mud, rain, snow rendered my red dot sight useless. Yes I had the same with my iron sights however running my finger (even with gloves on) through the iron sight gave me back a sight picture it took way more time to get my red dot back into the game.
Yeah, that thing where you can't insert the magazine after reassembling the pistol, that's the slide lock lever. When you put the slide back on, use the slide lock and then flip the take down lever. If you hold the slide to the rear and skip the slide lock while you flip the take down lever, than you'll have that issue with the magazine. I think it's the mechanism that makes it necessary to remove the magazine before you can field strip the pistol. Speaking of which, that's probably the most compelling reason why this gun was chosen, aside from the price. No trigger pull to disassemble the Sig. A lot of grunts are gonna keep their fingers and toes because of that. lol. Just look up how many accidental discharges the NYPD has with their Glocks just from officers field stripping their sidearms with a round in the chamber.
MAC - the issue during reassembling and the mag not seating happens because the slide lock was not fully engaged before rotating the takedown. The result is a dead trigger and not being able to seat a magazine. To fix this you must lock the slide to the rear and then rotate the takedown lever. This is a part of the safety feature that does not let you take down the pistol with a magazine inserted.
FYI, the occluded sight picture concept works with the DP and the RMR and any “open” red dot. Put masking tape over the window and you can still use the dot.
@@kurtismeinhardt68 When it comes to pistol RDS optics people need to do more of these two things: 1) TRY whatever is being talked about. So many people don't even have a red dot mounted on a pistol and they just regurgitate myths. Not saying MAC is doing that, just making a generalized statement on the bad information out there regarding red dots. 2) if they are really interested in testing, durability, concepts of using a red dot, and training with a red dot GO WATCH AARON COWAN. Seriously, check out Sage Dynamics and watch a bunch of videos, and then go try out what he is doing. Gold mine of information there for anyone who wants it. *And yes, my EDC is a gun milled for a Trijicon RMR, so I'm not regurgitating arguments here. I've done these experiments myself.
@@fredo51 Certainly an enclosed system has an advantage there. Having said that, I've put dirt/mud/water/snow on my RMR and haven't been able to disable it. Shake the gun, smack the magazine, rack the slide, and anything on the lens/emitter gets cleared. It's certainly cleared after firing. It is actually very tough to get debris to sit on the emitter, usually I have to purposely place it there to test removing it. I do understand how an open sight design has additional concern specifically in a military application though. ACO I would be a far better option. For civilians and even LEO though, open red dots are fine IMO.
Exactly, if the emitter or the ocular side of the lens is obstructed you don't get the option of using the optic as an occluded weapons sight. Therein lies the problem and why the ACRO will be a step in the right direction.
Tim was just in the shop for the first time today. Josh helped me and was awsome even hooked me up with a few patches. Looking forward to dropping my 19x off for slide cuts. Great store and customer service!
I own both the P250 (full size in 9mm) and a P320 (compact 9mm) and I love the both. I still don’t understand why the 250 is not more popular. Spend a little time with the trigger and you’ll be surprised at how accurate it is.
Mac doesn't understand that the P250 was meant as Sig's "budget" polymer handgun, meant to compete more with the lower-cost DAO guns like the S&W/ Sigma/SDVE. The P250 was a phenomenal gun for the price and much superior to the SDVE, and that same modular concept gave rise to the P320, so it's a winner in my book, even if it was discontinued.
If you haven’t figured out the no mag/dead trigger after reassembly... it’s your Takedown Safety Lever (black bar running along the left side of the trigger module), not clicking forward into place. Mine was stickey at first too, but broke in fine. You can manually reset it after the slide is on, and the takedown lever is re-engaged. With the slide locked to the rear, just reach in through the ejection port and push the exposed tab forward. Mags will then seat fine, and trigger will fire/reset as designed.
I currently have an M17 issued to me and those holes actually do not exist on the slide. There actually isn't a way to be able to take that plate off without the special tools that the armorers have. As an Infantry unit as well, we are not able to get red dots for the pistol as well.
The RDS capabilities weren't for regular infantry, which is even more puzzling given Special Operations use a multitude of firearms and aren't hobbled by standard issue firearms.
Military Arms Channel Good point, we don’t care what we’re “issued” it’s unit choice, and to a point individual choice. No unit I know carries the M17.
Joshua Rowinski I was referring to MAC’s post talking about Special Operations Units. I don’t want to offend anyone but I would not consider the 82nd Special Operations.
Thanks for your no-BS assessment of the DeltaPoint Pro. As a side note, I can see an Army grunt trying to wipe off the lens and accidentally popping out the battery.
Trijicon RMR's are more durable in part (in terms of DROP PROTECTION) because they have the patent on those U-shaped hood, which does a fantastic job protecting it. Every other miniature red dot manufacturer has to do the opposite thing, which is make it with a ovalish metal hood which is not as effective and forces all the impact on the focal point of the top. The M17/M18 with the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro footprint DOES NOT MEAN that the military will go with DeltaPoints; rather it means that pretty much future optics will more than likely have to use the DPP footprint.
I've been running the DPP daily for concealed carry for over a year now and put around 200 - 500 rounds a month (which isn't a staggering amount, but more than other people) via practice or weekend STEEL matches on a Dueck Defense mount using Duracell batteries. No issues. But I also haven't had any drops or abuse outside of normal slide cycling. I change the battery preemptively every 3 months for a total cost in $10 for batteries a year. I leave it on the higher end of brightness and never worry or have had issue with it's brightness level while shooting. I'll fine tune it for shooting matches, though. RMRs are still more durable in terms of abuse. Aaron Cowan has a white paper and multiple videos (uploaded under Sage Dynamics) delineating durability of many miniature red dots to include; RMRs, DPPs, Hollosun, Vortex, etc. about carry and duty use. He also has many video on tactics and techniques on using miniature red dots on pistols, including addressing all of MAC's "OH NO DOOMSDAY" scenarios for dots on pistols for carry and duty use; including ocular occlusion or emitter obfuscation. Every "issue" is addressed. It's actually too much to type it all here. There's so much misconception and misunderstanding about dots on pistols, it's similar to the mass hysteria about dots on rifles we had nearly 20 years ago. If people just shut up for a moment and sought actual knowledge on the topic, there'd be much learning. There's so many benefits to dots on pistols for any level of shooter, for any kind of use (comp, mil/leo/carry) right now. There's always room for better tech, but the benefits greatly outweigh any limitations, actual or perceived. There's going to be an initial learning curve on how to use the dots, but getting proper guidance and reps in (dry firing from the draw or actual range use) will greatly reduce that time. TL:DR, there's so many dots on pistols from competition, concealed carry, law enforcement, and military, that MAC came off a bit hysterical about his issue with red dots because it's currently been proven on hard use duty guns and all his issues have been addressed by professionals. Get a quality dot, install properly, and get good guidance.
The battery used is also important to prevent flickering from contact issues. Use Duracell, they are a bit thicker. Also, use the proper length screws and torque with blue or red loctite. I like Glock pistols, but their stupid MOS plate system is trash.
I agree 110%. The Beretta M9A3 should have been the new service pistol. A lot of our guys hated the M9 but personally I loved it. You keep your firearms clean they’ll remain reliable. A lot of our guys in Iraq didn’t clean their weapons like they should have been so when they had failures I laughed. Thankfully we had very few failures outside the wire. My next handgun is going to be a M9A3 for sure. I don’t know if you’ve had the opportunity to fire one but it’s outstanding man. I love it. Thanks for the video. It was awesome and very informative as always brother! Thank you for your service as well! I try and watch channels ran by fellow veterans because I feel at home. Not sure if that makes any sense. lol.
Luis Ortiz Why change anything to appease people that buy guns just for the sake of saying that they own one? Glock got it right in 1987 or so. They cater to LE mostly, and being a 20 year LE Officer and SWAT officer, I can tell you with 100% certainty that despite “never changing anything” or “being innovative” that Glocks just work...all the time.
In regards to the comments about TFB's video. That guy in the video was trying to rack the slide by using the forward serrations. His hand slipped off and he cut his thumb on the extractor not the serrations. He went on to say he could charge the M17 by using the rear serrations like your suppose to. But it was very tight with the tension from the loaded mag.
If you take the pistol a part time and putting it back together do not lock the slide to slide lock then the magazine will not be inserted and that has to do with the seer disconnect the way that the Siri disconnect words to reengage it you have to push up on the slide lock so if you just hold it to the rear and use the takedown that's why you can get a magazine. My police department has had a lot of issues with that and it's one of the things we touch on during training is that when putting the puzzle back together you have to lock the slider the rear
The PVD is a 50/50 evidently. I have a 229 Legion 357sig and have lobbed just over 6000 rounds out of it in the last 5 years. I reload so thats how I know how many rounds Ive shot, I keep records. I have Zero PVD issues in from my Legion. Im currently typing this with my brand new M17 sitting by my side. I hope it holds up.
I bought my M17 w/ thumb safety In September 2019. I picked it up the day it was delivered to the FFL holder who called me when it came in. I don't know if Sig rolled out an update, but I've never experienced the full magazine slide rack issue, not with the 17 or 21 round mags. I didn't specifically go for the M17, I was looking for a generic P320 so I could get some long term evaluation on it for my department. Plus, as a long term Glock user and armorer, I wanted to see if Sig had solved the riddle of the sphinx by simplifying their action to make armorer level maintenance as easy as the Glock. I've been pleasantly surprised by how well it shoots aside from the lazy trigger reset. While I don't personally believe it's "better" than the Glock, I don't think it's a bad choice for a sidearm. Now, if only we could convince Sig to stop being so predatory in their marketing and release the M18 upper as a separate component.
Actually it was more than just price according to a contractor who was involved in the trials. There were 2 check offs that the Sig had over the Glock.
Tim, Sig offers a suppressor height sight set for the P320, so the front sight should work with the rear iron sight for the DP-Pro. And yes, SKU: 120058 does appear to have windage and elevation adjustment.
Themayseffect uhhh yeah you are. Most of our engagements where at pretty decent distances away from our targets, we had to actually aim to hit anything.
@@nikik5567 why were you engaging targets with a pistol during battle over your primary rifle? And if that's the case, why would you want to use iron sights over a red dot sight?
I agree with Tim 100% about the issue with the DDP. I had one on my carry gun for about 9 months and I came to same conclusion. There are too many issues just as a carry optic and I can't imagine the military using it. I didn't find the issues Tim mentioned about water projecting multiple dots even when I was shooting in the rain, but what he said about the emitter getting stuff in front of it is true. The battery life is not enough to not be worried about it and although it is easy to change out, it's a burden to have to keep track of when you should expect to have to change it and I don't imagine an armorer keeping track of that.
That grin as look into the camera as you struggle to say positive things was extremely satisfying. I have a feeling that pistol will go into your gun safe and never see the light of day. Hopefully the dealer you got it from doesn’t have a no trade back policy lol 😂
Should have had a contract contest to produce a universal red dot rail capable of being attached via the integrated under rail and accompanying holster which would fit the M17 with said universal rail installed. There's a few such examples on the market: they work okay but if multiple companies submitted products for testing we could have come out with some real winners. This would have permitted to the Military to eventually upgrade to using standardized choices of optics: which could still be removed from the pistol if damaged. As is you're stuck with a particular optic and if it becomes damaged or otherwise unusable: you then have no sights at all. This is what happens when you have people in positions of influence, who have no combat experience - but played lots of call of duty.
>Looks at name >Looks at avatar lul The libertarian to nazi pipeline is real. I walked the same path. Edit: Just looked at your channel. The banner tells me you're not NS but just an individualistic sperg... You're still gonna be called a nazi tho.
@@bb3xhrhj 1, Yes - leftists call anyone who doesn't virtue signal communist talking points: a nazi. I don't care. 2, That's a kolovrat, Slavic pagan emblem of Perun which symbolizes the eternal struggle between good and evil. 3, I'm a Constitutionalist and Western Traditionalist: I think the problems with society today are not caused by, but are a result of the rejection of, classical western traditions. 4, I see Communism as being an anti-western, foreign (echo echo echo) ideology which is utterly incompatible with the western morals, principles and values which produced the First World. imgur.com/a/qdhqRNY
@@ObservingLibertarian nice I'm from sLOVEnia proud Slavic man if you feel the same way you should check Slavic affairs channel it's awesome and you can learn something new because we are learning all of the time
Excellent video. It covers all of the same gripes I had for a service pistol especially with the red dot. As for the takedown lever, the issued version has a screwed plate on the far side with two holes in it to then take out the trigger mechanism. Trying to make it grunt-proof.
The M17 never had a drop issue. The P320 did not either, evinced by the fact that there was no recall. Too many internet clickers are infected with the social contagion of herd-speak without paying any attention to the facts.
@@powernoodle1224 There's an ""update"" offered by Sig to replace the trigger by a lighter one, which does prevent the gun from firing when it falls on the back edge of the silde. Which means that there really _is_ a problem somewhere.
@@lrs2319 The 320 passed all industry standard drop tests... The drop issue was beyond those standards but Sig still fixed it and basically rewrote the testing standards to make their products better in the future.
@@hatefulhermit673 I don't really care if it passed the tests, I just want to be 100% sure that the gun won't fire if I drop it. And I can't be sure of that with the P320. Furthermore to my knowledge Sigs aren't sold "upagraded", you still have to send your gun to them in order to have it done.
@@powernoodle1224 after sig denied the problem then offered a fix, i, a 'sig only' guy am now a glock fanboy. they go boom every time you pull the trigger and they do not go boom when you do not pull it. thats not a lot to ask of a gun.
Was the 19x cut for a dpp? I haven’t seen anything stating that it was and what is modular about the 19x? Obviously price played a factor but overall Glock deviated quite a bit from the requirements and sig stuck to them more than any other manufacturers submission.
Or the simple answer is what we got as the 19X isn't exactly what they put in the trial, ala the safety. Glock makes pistols with optics cuts. There's no reason they wouldn't have one for the competition.
_Suburban_ I really don’t understand the marketing with glocks. They just released mos gen 5 glocks, it’s not like they weren’t able to offer them at the same initial release date. Now the G45 isn’t available in a mos version yet for some reason and yet there’s people out there that will buy all of these guns and then buy the G45 mos when they make it available. In short, I agree that you should be able to buy a mos slide as a stand-alone product.
First the horrid digital camo, then cheaping out and going for skorpian camo instead of multicam, then the less reliable t-11 parachute for paratroopers now this. Yay government.
@@GamePath BATF practices entrapment to force you into a C.I. position against the ultra-violent and paranoid Montana Militia. U.S. Marshals shoot your dog and son. FBI "HR"T pops your wife. Is it any wonder no one trusts when the Fed says "We're from the Government and we are here to help."
Not really nice to see your slide wear having the same as mine but at least I know I don’t have that only pistol with finish problems. Sig offered to have the gun sent back but they of course they just replace the gun. Already having one that shoots very well and no assurance the new gun wouldn’t have the same issue I elected to just keep it. Thanks for the vid mac
While I agree that the surface coating should have been Cerakote the white finish under the color is the actual PVD. This same situation has come up with other items that have been PVD where the paint does not adhere to the actual PVD. Look up info on the original Magnesium KMR from Bravo Company USA.
@@doobie9550 Not the point. Rust and corrosion is the point. That's why the old ugly gen 3 glock was better...try again...I'm not sure how PVD performs vs old school tenifer but all I know is tenifer works.
Tennifer is good but the Glocks early internals will rust in a maritime environment. Thats why they out corrosion resistant internals in MARSOC and Teams Glocks. Not sure what they use? Should be stainless.
Good video on the m17. Just bought one and is a nice side arm.. The comment about grunts breaking things though is odd. Previously being a lower enlisted grunt and NCO, any ability to break a weapon system that far down to clean and service is amazing. People have a distorted view of grunts and their level of intelligence and or competence. Just saying...
The reason the 320 won the trials is that it was the only submission that met the "Modular" requirement of the MHS program. All other pistols submitted were not able to swap slides, frames and chassis.
I agree mate Having the RMR screws screwed in from inside the slide rather than from the top into the slide doesn't seem very logical for your stated reasons, the last thing you would want is a screw dropping down into the internals.
Both the Glock and the Beretta are better choices. I’m not brand biased at all, I own all three and clearly like many that have reported that are in the know, this was a money issue not a performance issue that won Sig the contract. Sig come in cheap on the contract for the win. Old saying is true here, you get what you pay for and there is a reason it was cheaper than the rest.
JMANSWAT tell me about it. The guns that are great and have minimal negative critiques are reviewed and never heard about again (ie. PPQ, Rex, M&P, Ruger, Steyr etc) and it's back to fucking glock reviews.
Not to mention after market Glock triggers that feel the same as stock, and all the money dumped into them to make them exactly like what's stock competitor offerings. Their mag selection is the only thing I find that's useful.
The one thing I will say unless you’re in special operations or actual designated position in your squad you don’t really do much except qualify with your side arm. So it doesn’t surprise me that much thought wasn’t put into it.
Indeed! All these modern features that the Army asked for; modular trigger assembly, red dot sight cut, multiple frame sizes, are NEVER going to be used by 99.9% of the military! The only guys who will ever get to mess with that stuff are special forces (who can pretty much pick whatever they want and thus will avoid this gun like the plague) and the shooting teams.
I would say that there is actually a very high chance that the Army adopts optics for the entire force. It took a while for red dots to catch on with rifles but when people saw the benefits they were put on every thing. The military will adopt the red dot for pistols, but the trust has to be developed before commanders start requesting them.
@@Locutus494 not exactly. They get to pick whats supplied for the mission. They can petition to have guns in inventory through there armorer, who puts in the order which may or may not be supplied. but that's about it.
@@Silentblogger659 Yeah, I get that they don't get literally ANYTHING they want, just things in the Army's and SOCOM's inventory, but there's no way they'll choose such a flawed gun when they have so many other options, all of them better.
Shooting a pistol with MRDS without co-witnessed sights is an even more perishable skill than shooting a pistol with irons only. Putting the dot on the target is easy, but only if you can find the dot first. That takes some practice.
I know that SOCOM, MPs, CG Boarding crews and such carry, and possibly use, their handguns routinely, but most handguns in Combat Arms reside in their holsters. All of this gimmicky crap seems superfluous to me. Even as an A-M60 gunner in the NG, my 1911 was holstered except for qualifications.
Your right about big Army combat arms soldiers never using pistols. During my time in the active Army, 11C infantry, no one had pistols except medics and a few staff officers in the entire Battalion. Even the Battalion commander carried an M16-a1. All this was long ago when the M-1911a1 was still used. No 9mm stuff yet. Saw a few people that had .38spl revolvers though. Like mail carriers and such.
Handguns are definitely not prevelant in the combat arms world, usually only officers and senior NCO's carry. When I was deployed the troop CO, First Sergeant, XO, Platoon Leaders, and Mortar section leader had a sidearm; and I don't they ever shot it, aside from at the range when we first arrived in country.
That is the way it was when I was in, from 1982 to 1986. The exception was being an Assistant M60 gunner. Both the designated gunner and I had 1911s. I also drew an assigned M16 as well.
@@Locutus494 That's a moot point man. The army shouldn't have switched to the utter shitshow that was ucp and ucp-d but they did it anyways. You've literally made the same comment multiple times so please just stop.
R.B Jefferies im a Glocktard 😅. But I never liked the Sig...feels terrible in my hand and the take down level gets in the way of a thumbs forward grip. But just my opinion...glad it works for you man!
MrPaglissi I fail to see how they got “ripped off”. They ran extensive testing on a number of manufacturers firearms. They voluntarily chose the one they thought was the best choice. They pay for what was in the contract and the manufacturer delivers. Sooooooo where’s the rip off?
@@mxxkxxg the testing was ended early (only 12500 rounds fired through the guns instead of the planned 50000), the M17 had some teething issues (drop safe, and reliability issues). with that said i think something fishy had happened in that process
The military issue P320s have heavier slides for the 124grn +P loads the military uses. The civilian market versions of the pistols have material milled out of the slide to make them more compatible with commercial ammunition. You can buy a heavier weight recoil spring assembly to be able to shoot +P ammunition regularly.
You truly should head up a quality control “gauntlet” for military firearms-this would either give the military the true state of the art firearms or none would truly pass. Your observations and critical thinking skills are wonderful when looking at Murphy’s law in the true life and death aspects of firearms. Thank you for your channel.
Just found this video. I recently got an M18 and installed a Romeo1 Pro. The install was amazingly easy as was zeroing the new sight. My only issue now is finding an OWB holster for it. The Romeo is 2-3 mil wider on each side of the slide. Not sure why Sig made it that big but it doesn't have a chance of fitting my BladeTech holster. Thanks in advance.
Mac the military version has a lock that only the military can access to prevent tampering
Thank you!
Yeap its a lock out pin that’s on the slide stop
No it doesn't. They opted out of that modification last minute. Ask me how I know.
A lot of information regarding the contest, the pistol testing and etc from those who were actually involved in the process.
th-cam.com/video/bXuQ9VuG0sY/w-d-xo.html
You are wrong...the only tamper prof part is the slide, the take down pin to take out FCU is not tamper prof at all. the limited run guns have all the coating as well as the FDE controls.
As a grunt I am offended at your presumption of my lack of intellect. As a leader of grunts, you right...
My understanding is Mac in a Marine and he's using Grunt as a term of endearment. I was a Combat Medic for 22 years with five overseas tours to OIF/OEF. In my opinion he/we have earned the right make a few Grunk jokes. When I heard the Army's choice in the SIG 320, I thought the same thing 😆.
As grunt I’m not offended, come on you know we would take anything and everything we can when bored. That is why the trackers never had tools in the AAVs.
I'm going to assume you used you instead of you're because you weren't sure if it's your or you're🤣
@@joeg5414 sho nuff
Hey mac love the channel, I work for sig as an assembler and have built the real m17s and I can tell you the slides are different in the way the rear sight plate looks and mounts to the slide, if you have a commemorative m17 the slide and sight plate are exactly the same but the commercial one you have here is basically a full-size version of the 320 xcarry slides and sight plates. the problem you had with the mag not fully seating in when you put the slide in is because of the safety takedown bar that drops the sear so you don't fire the weapon to disassemble it, that bar has a nub that catches on the slide catch lever when its not holding the slide back, if you lock the slide back always you'll never have that issue which also serves as a mag safety kind of, so you cant have a loaded mag and try to disassemble the gun
Nice explanation. But MACis the new Yeager and he is always correct regardless of facts.
I also was not a Sig p320 fan. But I absolutely love my M17. Got it soon after release and didnt have a single issue with it. Fits my hand great (I'm a bigger guy). Great recoil control. Good feel for intuitive shooting. Accurate. Fantastic mid-price pistol.
Thanks! Found my lock. Now I do not have to by one. Don't think to look under the foam! Thanks again!
“Don’t fill them clips too high, give them bullets room to breath.” - The Notorious B.I.G.
DeltaPoint Pro is bulletproof. Tested at 30,000 cycles at 5,000Gs, 60 ft under water. before it was released It is a beast. Easy to change the battery (even automatically extracts the battery for you with a magnet) Clicks adjustments, Designed for special forces -CAG/ Delta Force. The designer set down with the guys talked and ate with them and listen to stories and learn what exactly this top-notch guys what. (I know the designer - Daniel Campean who has a patent on this.) This is an awesome product.
Must be different deltapoint pros. Everything I've seen says they are fragile
I need a M17 in my life for sure
My P226 SAO Legion's PVD finish wore off very quickly as well
The Sig m17 is the best handgun I've owned. Got rid of my Berettas and CZs for it
@@mdredheadguy1979 A really good video is actually 10-8 performance's on gun finishes. The topic is 1911s but I'm sure a finish is a finish. Type "10-8 finishes" into the search bar and it's the top result.
I have an M17 and it is easily my favorite handgun I’ve ever had and or shot. I will I’ve never had an issue with mine, besides some issues with not fully wanting to go into battery, but besides that this handgun is the best handgun I’ve ever seen, had and used lol. You go get you one papa gunsandgear
@@ryanwardlaw3970 i wanted this or a m&p 2.0 and chose the 2.0.
I own the M17 with thee DeltaPro...and, a stock P320 full size. The M17 is awesome!
To be fair, the Army selected the Delta Point Pro's flange pattern for the M17, not the sight unit itself. And if the flange pattern is part of the TDP, which the Army owns, then they could easily go to any sight manufacturer and have them make a model of sight to fit the M17 (an Aimpoint ACRO, for example).
newdefsys interesting! Link to that?
@@mlevans066 I Don't have a link. Not really possible to demonstrate that something didn't happen. If I see an Army stock photo of an M17 with a red dot on it, you'll be the first to know
@@newdefsys "If I see an Army stock photo of an M17 with a red dot on it, you'll be the first to know" going to be waiting a while for that...
@@Locutus494 I would imagine a long while. A red dot might be issued in the future as part of a block kit with a sound suppressor, in limited numbers.
SOCOM officially selected RMRs for their Glocks, even though they've been running dots unofficially for a while.
soldiersystems.net/2018/08/16/trijicon-awarded-7-6-mil-for-ussocom-miniature-aiming-system-day-optics-program/
Good review. The thing some people don’t realize is what a red dot sight brings to the table. When you get old and need glasses the target image down range can be really blurred, depending on your vision. To the point you can’t get a consistent sight picture. Red dot sights solve that problem since both the dot and target appear to be in the same focal plane. Since your eyes are focused down range, you have better peripheral vision and situational awareness.
The solution for cleaning weapons light lenses is Mister Clean Magic Erasers. And cleaning the lens ASAP after firing. Wet the sponge, wipe the lens, and your done.
I am in Brazil watching your videos, a few days I was aware of your channel on TH-cam, I liked it very much, good content.
Congratulations to all Brazilian for their new elected president bolsonaro
@Moonshield23 & Jo Quin
Thanks. we are a very young republic when comparing with USA, but the population has matured in the last decade, what still impressed me was the 47 million who still voted for Haddad, are with Stockholm syndrome is what I suspect.
Excuse me, my English. I never left Brazil.
Thanks for watching and I hope your new conservative president serves your nation well!
@Tiago SC eu uma Glock 19 hehehe
"CZ > Sig. Fight me." - MAC
😂😂😂😂
I would agree
CZ po7 should have been our next service pistol
Idiot's
@Michael Srite hahah again, smh
magazine is locked out because you need to LOCK the slide back and turn the takedown level and it will work every time
What do you mean ?
@@squidy4082 Once you try and engaged to take down the lever the magazine cannot be installed one that is applied nor can it be installed after you reassemble the slide until the magazine catch is forced up that releases the link in the safety allowing you to load magazines after you’ve reassemble the gun
@@heaterfamily so will it be like for every mag? I love the m17 but the finish it’s terrible and I wonder if they fixed it because it had already happened on other sigs so idk
Brutal honesty, I love it. Completely agree with MAC 100% on the Army’s choice of red dots. Although 99% of the end user will not be issued a red dot, it still blows my mind they neglected to think of using a system so easily compromised in an austere environment.
Re; 5:00 - I believe the MHS contract specified the slide needed to be cut for the DPP footprint and bolt pattern but unless I missed a significant announcement I don't believe the Army has awarded a contract to Leupold or any other optics manufacturer for the optic that will go on the M17/18 pistols. My understanding is they will either single-source-solicit Leupold (they haven't yet), or they will put out another request to multiple optics manufacturers with a request for options that all fit the DPP footprint. Which could lead to industry standardization for pistol optic mounting - No more universal cuts with adapter plates, everyone's optic just fits the same footprint
Ideally, they will submit an open RFP and give Trijicon an opportunity to develop an RMR with a slightly larger window that fits the DPP footprint
I read recently SOCOM awarded Trijicon a pretty big contract for the RMR Type 2, but they didn't say what weapons they planned to use them with in the article I found.
Both Sig and Trijicon will make a optic that fits in the DDP footprint once the Army issues the RFP.
A universal mounting pattern would be the best outcome.
@@Militaryarmschannel I saw a stock photo of an M240-B with an RMR attached. So, they got some ideas on where to use it.
I have the Commemorative M17 as well. It didn't cost anything to get the challenge coin and signed cert of authenticity. The wooden box cost around $140 now. I didn't by the wooden case. I just left it in the cardboard box. The commemorative is a safe queen. I have and shoot the P320 M17 commercial version regularly. I haven't had a single issue with my M17. The commemorative version comes with a significantly better coating.
the military making less than ideal decisions on important aspects of a weapon system like the sights? The military would never do such a thing.
Sights don't matter if you can' t take the safety off wearing gloves.
My dad used to take us to Blythe's when I was a kid. That was my first indoor range!
I can see range day now. All zeroing these new red dots. Most people can’t zero an M4 lol
God help us if they ever make that jump....
Tim, thank you for finally honestly acknowledging the reason why I don't have an "open" red dot sight on my handgun. Even on my rifle which has a "closed" red dot sight I have that sight attached with a quick mount and iron back up sights. I have been in situations where mud, rain, snow rendered my red dot sight useless. Yes I had the same with my iron sights however running my finger (even with gloves on) through the iron sight gave me back a sight picture it took way more time to get my red dot back into the game.
youve never even walked outside in the rain with your gun, you sit on the couch and cycle your toys. you will never use your gun for any real work
@@onseki1774 guess that is why more and more manufacturers built enclosed red dot sights. Looks like they know more about that than you...
Yeah, that thing where you can't insert the magazine after reassembling the pistol, that's the slide lock lever. When you put the slide back on, use the slide lock and then flip the take down lever. If you hold the slide to the rear and skip the slide lock while you flip the take down lever, than you'll have that issue with the magazine. I think it's the mechanism that makes it necessary to remove the magazine before you can field strip the pistol.
Speaking of which, that's probably the most compelling reason why this gun was chosen, aside from the price. No trigger pull to disassemble the Sig. A lot of grunts are gonna keep their fingers and toes because of that. lol. Just look up how many accidental discharges the NYPD has with their Glocks just from officers field stripping their sidearms with a round in the chamber.
A good friend of mine shot himself in the leg with a Glock. Pulling the trigger to disassemble. Glock perfection.
MAC - the issue during reassembling and the mag not seating happens because the slide lock was not fully engaged before rotating the takedown. The result is a dead trigger and not being able to seat a magazine. To fix this you must lock the slide to the rear and then rotate the takedown lever. This is a part of the safety feature that does not let you take down the pistol with a magazine inserted.
FYI, the occluded sight picture concept works with the DP and the RMR and any “open” red dot. Put masking tape over the window and you can still use the dot.
Orcus1030 someone finally says something smart :) thanks haha
@@kurtismeinhardt68 When it comes to pistol RDS optics people need to do more of these two things: 1) TRY whatever is being talked about. So many people don't even have a red dot mounted on a pistol and they just regurgitate myths. Not saying MAC is doing that, just making a generalized statement on the bad information out there regarding red dots. 2) if they are really interested in testing, durability, concepts of using a red dot, and training with a red dot GO WATCH AARON COWAN. Seriously, check out Sage Dynamics and watch a bunch of videos, and then go try out what he is doing. Gold mine of information there for anyone who wants it.
*And yes, my EDC is a gun milled for a Trijicon RMR, so I'm not regurgitating arguments here. I've done these experiments myself.
@@fredo51 Certainly an enclosed system has an advantage there. Having said that, I've put dirt/mud/water/snow on my RMR and haven't been able to disable it. Shake the gun, smack the magazine, rack the slide, and anything on the lens/emitter gets cleared. It's certainly cleared after firing. It is actually very tough to get debris to sit on the emitter, usually I have to purposely place it there to test removing it.
I do understand how an open sight design has additional concern specifically in a military application though. ACO I would be a far better option. For civilians and even LEO though, open red dots are fine IMO.
Exactly, if the emitter or the ocular side of the lens is obstructed you don't get the option of using the optic as an occluded weapons sight. Therein lies the problem and why the ACRO will be a step in the right direction.
Tim was just in the shop for the first time today. Josh helped me and was awsome even hooked me up with a few patches. Looking forward to dropping my 19x off for slide cuts. Great store and customer service!
Sorry I missed you!
I own both the P250 (full size in 9mm) and a P320 (compact 9mm) and I love the both. I still don’t understand why the 250 is not more popular. Spend a little time with the trigger and you’ll be surprised at how accurate it is.
Mac doesn't understand that the P250 was meant as Sig's "budget" polymer handgun, meant to compete more with the lower-cost DAO guns like the S&W/ Sigma/SDVE. The P250 was a phenomenal gun for the price and much superior to the SDVE, and that same modular concept gave rise to the P320, so it's a winner in my book, even if it was discontinued.
If you haven’t figured out the no mag/dead trigger after reassembly... it’s your Takedown Safety Lever (black bar running along the left side of the trigger module), not clicking forward into place. Mine was stickey at first too, but broke in fine. You can manually reset it after the slide is on, and the takedown lever is re-engaged. With the slide locked to the rear, just reach in through the ejection port and push the exposed tab forward. Mags will then seat fine, and trigger will fire/reset as designed.
I currently have an M17 issued to me and those holes actually do not exist on the slide. There actually isn't a way to be able to take that plate off without the special tools that the armorers have. As an Infantry unit as well, we are not able to get red dots for the pistol as well.
The RDS capabilities weren't for regular infantry, which is even more puzzling given Special Operations use a multitude of firearms and aren't hobbled by standard issue firearms.
Military Arms Channel Good point, we don’t care what we’re “issued” it’s unit choice, and to a point individual choice. No unit I know carries the M17.
You never heard of the 82nd Airborne? Because they were the first units to get them.
The first two units were 101st and 3CR
Joshua Rowinski I was referring to MAC’s post talking about Special Operations Units. I don’t want to offend anyone but I would not consider the 82nd Special Operations.
Thanks for your no-BS assessment of the DeltaPoint Pro. As a side note, I can see an Army grunt trying to wipe off the lens and accidentally popping out the battery.
I hope the DeltaPoint wasn't adopted, I don't believe it was.
Trijicon RMR's are more durable in part (in terms of DROP PROTECTION) because they have the patent on those U-shaped hood, which does a fantastic job protecting it. Every other miniature red dot manufacturer has to do the opposite thing, which is make it with a ovalish metal hood which is not as effective and forces all the impact on the focal point of the top.
The M17/M18 with the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro footprint DOES NOT MEAN that the military will go with DeltaPoints; rather it means that pretty much future optics will more than likely have to use the DPP footprint.
Love my delta point. Use the triangle for CQC. Use point or top of triangle for distance shooting.
CQB
Forged 7075-T6 Aluminum housing vs. Extruded 6061 housing.
I've been running the DPP daily for concealed carry for over a year now and put around 200 - 500 rounds a month (which isn't a staggering amount, but more than other people) via practice or weekend STEEL matches on a Dueck Defense mount using Duracell batteries. No issues. But I also haven't had any drops or abuse outside of normal slide cycling. I change the battery preemptively every 3 months for a total cost in $10 for batteries a year. I leave it on the higher end of brightness and never worry or have had issue with it's brightness level while shooting. I'll fine tune it for shooting matches, though.
RMRs are still more durable in terms of abuse. Aaron Cowan has a white paper and multiple videos (uploaded under Sage Dynamics) delineating durability of many miniature red dots to include; RMRs, DPPs, Hollosun, Vortex, etc. about carry and duty use.
He also has many video on tactics and techniques on using miniature red dots on pistols, including addressing all of MAC's "OH NO DOOMSDAY" scenarios for dots on pistols for carry and duty use; including ocular occlusion or emitter obfuscation. Every "issue" is addressed. It's actually too much to type it all here.
There's so much misconception and misunderstanding about dots on pistols, it's similar to the mass hysteria about dots on rifles we had nearly 20 years ago. If people just shut up for a moment and sought actual knowledge on the topic, there'd be much learning.
There's so many benefits to dots on pistols for any level of shooter, for any kind of use (comp, mil/leo/carry) right now. There's always room for better tech, but the benefits greatly outweigh any limitations, actual or perceived. There's going to be an initial learning curve on how to use the dots, but getting proper guidance and reps in (dry firing from the draw or actual range use) will greatly reduce that time.
TL:DR, there's so many dots on pistols from competition, concealed carry, law enforcement, and military, that MAC came off a bit hysterical about his issue with red dots because it's currently been proven on hard use duty guns and all his issues have been addressed by professionals. Get a quality dot, install properly, and get good guidance.
The battery used is also important to prevent flickering from contact issues. Use Duracell, they are a bit thicker. Also, use the proper length screws and torque with blue or red loctite. I like Glock pistols, but their stupid MOS plate system is trash.
I know this video is old but this really helped me decide of the m17 is the right pistol for me
You are very biased when reviewing a sight not very helpful when you have a preference for yourself
I hear you I love Trijicon DeltaPoint not so much but here's my inforce light
I agree 110%. The Beretta M9A3 should have been the new service pistol. A lot of our guys hated the M9 but personally I loved it. You keep your firearms clean they’ll remain reliable. A lot of our guys in Iraq didn’t clean their weapons like they should have been so when they had failures I laughed. Thankfully we had very few failures outside the wire. My next handgun is going to be a M9A3 for sure. I don’t know if you’ve had the opportunity to fire one but it’s outstanding man. I love it. Thanks for the video. It was awesome and very informative as always brother! Thank you for your service as well! I try and watch channels ran by fellow veterans because I feel at home. Not sure if that makes any sense. lol.
So many glock fanboys bashing the M17 and Sig. Hilarious.
Its 2019. 99% of gun manufacturers make excellent guns. Quality control has gone up. Whether glock Taurus and even high point
@Ben Warner hi point carbines are pretty good?
Thank you for making me see a G17 G5 RMR FDE in my future.
At least Sig Sauer throws ideas. Glock has been putting out the same gun for decades
Luis Ortiz
Why change anything to appease people that buy guns just for the sake of saying that they own one? Glock got it right in 1987 or so. They cater to LE mostly, and being a 20 year LE Officer and SWAT officer, I can tell you with 100% certainty that despite “never changing anything” or “being innovative” that Glocks just work...all the time.
I blame the Glock fanboys.
@@warpig3744 according to statistics, LEO dont put enough trigger time in to know a difference.
At least Glocks work
If it aint broke dont fix it
In regards to the comments about TFB's video. That guy in the video was trying to rack the slide by using the forward serrations. His hand slipped off and he cut his thumb on the extractor not the serrations. He went on to say he could charge the M17 by using the rear serrations like your suppose to. But it was very tight with the tension from the loaded mag.
Glad I went with the RMR
I have both the m17 and m17 commemorative and they are both nail drivers.
Yep sold me on an M9A3, guess that’s what happens when you don’t let the Air Force trial firearms first, M16 and M9 seem to still be going strong.
If you take the pistol a part time and putting it back together do not lock the slide to slide lock then the magazine will not be inserted and that has to do with the seer disconnect the way that the Siri disconnect words to reengage it you have to push up on the slide lock so if you just hold it to the rear and use the takedown that's why you can get a magazine. My police department has had a lot of issues with that and it's one of the things we touch on during training is that when putting the puzzle back together you have to lock the slider the rear
It's the slide stop lever. Has to be engaged or you can't insert a mag and have a dead trigger upon reassembly.
Why though ? Never is a problem on other guns ?
The PVD is a 50/50 evidently. I have a 229 Legion 357sig and have lobbed just over 6000 rounds out of it in the last 5 years. I reload so thats how I know how many rounds Ive shot, I keep records. I have Zero PVD issues in from my Legion. Im currently typing this with my brand new M17 sitting by my side. I hope it holds up.
I bought my M17 w/ thumb safety In September 2019. I picked it up the day it was delivered to the FFL holder who called me when it came in. I don't know if Sig rolled out an update, but I've never experienced the full magazine slide rack issue, not with the 17 or 21 round mags. I didn't specifically go for the M17, I was looking for a generic P320 so I could get some long term evaluation on it for my department. Plus, as a long term Glock user and armorer, I wanted to see if Sig had solved the riddle of the sphinx by simplifying their action to make armorer level maintenance as easy as the Glock. I've been pleasantly surprised by how well it shoots aside from the lazy trigger reset. While I don't personally believe it's "better" than the Glock, I don't think it's a bad choice for a sidearm. Now, if only we could convince Sig to stop being so predatory in their marketing and release the M18 upper as a separate component.
Manual says to lock back the slide before inserting the loaded magazine and then releasing the slide.
will the M17 meet the GAUNTLET? that would be an interesting!
going to use my M17/DeltaPro as a range toy and bump in the night gun, I found I can shoot it comfortably without my prescription glasses.
Screws on the INSIDE?! Brrrrrr.
I took MAC’s advice, my Trijicon RM06 just came today. My P320 slide is out getting milled for an RMR and Cerakote right now.
An oldie, but a goodie
I came to see the new gun that we will have here in Brazil.
Mais alguém?
Actually it was more than just price according to a contractor who was involved in the trials. There were 2 check offs that the Sig had over the Glock.
I have had bad luck with the inforce lights.
Kevin Niven it’s not you.
@@mlevans066 I emailed them twice with no response.
I've seen a couple broken. Avoid them. Good luck with customer service
@@TheSuburban15 When cleaning a gun my APL fell off the table and broke one of the paddles. inforce wouldn't even respond. I will never buy again.
They are garbage.
Tim, Sig offers a suppressor height sight set for the P320, so the front sight should work with the rear iron sight for the DP-Pro.
And yes, SKU: 120058 does appear to have windage and elevation adjustment.
I don't understand this trend of giving up the rear sight. It makes no sense to me.
Fee_ Lo My P320 RX still has the rear sight even with the red dot
Military wanted it that way apparently. Other versions of the P320 keep the rear sight
because in a real battle you aren't taking the time to aim any god damn way lol.
Themayseffect uhhh yeah you are. Most of our engagements where at pretty decent distances away from our targets, we had to actually aim to hit anything.
@@nikik5567 why were you engaging targets with a pistol during battle over your primary rifle? And if that's the case, why would you want to use iron sights over a red dot sight?
I agree with Tim 100% about the issue with the DDP. I had one on my carry gun for about 9 months and I came to same conclusion. There are too many issues just as a carry optic and I can't imagine the military using it. I didn't find the issues Tim mentioned about water projecting multiple dots even when I was shooting in the rain, but what he said about the emitter getting stuff in front of it is true. The battery life is not enough to not be worried about it and although it is easy to change out, it's a burden to have to keep track of when you should expect to have to change it and I don't imagine an armorer keeping track of that.
Just change it out every 3 months they're not expensive and very easy to get to
I still prefer my MK25.
That grin as look into the camera as you struggle to say positive things was extremely satisfying. I have a feeling that pistol will go into your gun safe and never see the light of day. Hopefully the dealer you got it from doesn’t have a no trade back policy lol 😂
Should have had a contract contest to produce a universal red dot rail capable of being attached via the integrated under rail and accompanying holster which would fit the M17 with said universal rail installed. There's a few such examples on the market: they work okay but if multiple companies submitted products for testing we could have come out with some real winners. This would have permitted to the Military to eventually upgrade to using standardized choices of optics: which could still be removed from the pistol if damaged.
As is you're stuck with a particular optic and if it becomes damaged or otherwise unusable: you then have no sights at all. This is what happens when you have people in positions of influence, who have no combat experience - but played lots of call of duty.
>Looks at name
>Looks at avatar
lul The libertarian to nazi pipeline is real. I walked the same path.
Edit: Just looked at your channel. The banner tells me you're not NS but just an individualistic sperg... You're still gonna be called a nazi tho.
Kolovrat ha?so you are SLAVIC ?
@@bb3xhrhj
1, Yes - leftists call anyone who doesn't virtue signal communist talking points: a nazi. I don't care.
2, That's a kolovrat, Slavic pagan emblem of Perun which symbolizes the eternal struggle between good and evil.
3, I'm a Constitutionalist and Western Traditionalist: I think the problems with society today are not caused by, but are a result of the rejection of, classical western traditions.
4, I see Communism as being an anti-western, foreign (echo echo echo) ideology which is utterly incompatible with the western morals, principles and values which produced the First World.
imgur.com/a/qdhqRNY
@@matejmatej3554 4th generation Russian immigrant to the US.
@@ObservingLibertarian nice I'm from sLOVEnia proud Slavic man if you feel the same way you should check Slavic affairs channel it's awesome and you can learn something new because we are learning all of the time
Excellent video. It covers all of the same gripes I had for a service pistol especially with the red dot. As for the takedown lever, the issued version has a screwed plate on the far side with two holes in it to then take out the trigger mechanism. Trying to make it grunt-proof.
Oh man, MAC is dropping some new guns on us.
Just please don't drop the Sig on us. I don't want to go out like that.
The M17 never had a drop issue. The P320 did not either, evinced by the fact that there was no recall. Too many internet clickers are infected with the social contagion of herd-speak without paying any attention to the facts.
@@powernoodle1224 There's an ""update"" offered by Sig to replace the trigger by a lighter one, which does prevent the gun from firing when it falls on the back edge of the silde. Which means that there really _is_ a problem somewhere.
@@lrs2319 The 320 passed all industry standard drop tests... The drop issue was beyond those standards but Sig still fixed it and basically rewrote the testing standards to make their products better in the future.
@@hatefulhermit673 I don't really care if it passed the tests, I just want to be 100% sure that the gun won't fire if I drop it. And I can't be sure of that with the P320. Furthermore to my knowledge Sigs aren't sold "upagraded", you still have to send your gun to them in order to have it done.
@@powernoodle1224 after sig denied the problem then offered a fix, i, a 'sig only' guy am now a glock fanboy. they go boom every time you pull the trigger and they do not go boom when you do not pull it. thats not a lot to ask of a gun.
Great audio for the gunshots. My new "primary" weapon, in 30 years or so.
Was the 19x cut for a dpp? I haven’t seen anything stating that it was and what is modular about the 19x? Obviously price played a factor but overall Glock deviated quite a bit from the requirements and sig stuck to them more than any other manufacturers submission.
Or the simple answer is what we got as the 19X isn't exactly what they put in the trial, ala the safety. Glock makes pistols with optics cuts. There's no reason they wouldn't have one for the competition.
Glock needs to sell M.O.S. slides a la carte for all the bajillion Glocks they've sold over the last few decades.
_Suburban_ I really don’t understand the marketing with glocks. They just released mos gen 5 glocks, it’s not like they weren’t able to offer them at the same initial release date. Now the G45 isn’t available in a mos version yet for some reason and yet there’s people out there that will buy all of these guns and then buy the G45 mos when they make it available.
In short, I agree that you should be able to buy a mos slide as a stand-alone product.
Love my delta point
Just my opinion but I’d say somewhere there is a politician who’s bank account was increased by sig.
First the horrid digital camo, then cheaping out and going for skorpian camo instead of multicam, then the less reliable t-11 parachute for paratroopers now this. Yay government.
@@GamePath BATF practices entrapment to force you into a C.I. position against the ultra-violent and paranoid Montana Militia. U.S. Marshals shoot your dog and son. FBI "HR"T pops your wife. Is it any wonder no one trusts when the Fed says "We're from the Government and we are here to help."
Well you have to remember, this is somebody who literally ran a whorehouse out of business.
Thats what i call 'modern democracy'. Somebody said its the best
There were also better body armor options which the military didn’t choose.
Not really nice to see your slide wear having the same as mine but at least I know I don’t have that only pistol with finish problems. Sig offered to have the gun sent back but they of course they just replace the gun. Already having one that shoots very well and no assurance the new gun wouldn’t have the same issue I elected to just keep it. Thanks for the vid mac
Paint a weapon with something as durable as Rustoleum and see if I pay you $200 for your wooden box
My rattle can paint jobs have held up better than some of the finishes on my classic SIGs lol SIG Sauer has always had an issue with finishes.
While I agree that the surface coating should have been Cerakote the white finish under the color is the actual PVD. This same situation has come up with other items that have been PVD where the paint does not adhere to the actual PVD. Look up info on the original Magnesium KMR from Bravo Company USA.
Thats the important thing with a gun, how good it looks. Fuck it if it can shoot well
@@doobie9550 Not the point. Rust and corrosion is the point. That's why the old ugly gen 3 glock was better...try again...I'm not sure how PVD performs vs old school tenifer but all I know is tenifer works.
Tennifer is good but the Glocks early internals will rust in a maritime environment. Thats why they out corrosion resistant internals in MARSOC and Teams Glocks. Not sure what they use? Should be stainless.
Good video on the m17. Just bought one and is a nice side arm.. The comment about grunts breaking things though is odd. Previously being a lower enlisted grunt and NCO, any ability to break a weapon system that far down to clean and service is amazing. People have a distorted view of grunts and their level of intelligence and or competence. Just saying...
Grunts aren't the only ones who like to break/lose things. Ask my wife.
The reason the 320 won the trials is that it was the only submission that met the "Modular" requirement of the MHS program. All other pistols submitted were not able to swap slides, frames and chassis.
It’s just so dang goofy to me that they went with the Delta Point
It was a nod to Delta force.
@HachiZenki that and beretta made a better pistol than that ancient brick.
I think that was just a footprint choice
Kind of a standardization thing
Jeff Calvert They could have standardized on a better optic though 😂
sturmgewehrr the way it mounts
😁
I agree mate
Having the RMR screws screwed in from inside the slide rather than from the top into the slide doesn't seem very logical for your stated reasons, the last thing you would want is a screw dropping down into the internals.
So basically I shouldn't buy a M17. Great video!
Army should have stayed with the colt 1860 .44 army .
Dude by this video I'm watching them from old to new did you change your audio equipment? The gun shots sound better in this video then older ones.
Both the Glock and the Beretta are better choices. I’m not brand biased at all, I own all three and clearly like many that have reported that are in the know, this was a money issue not a performance issue that won Sig the contract. Sig come in cheap on the contract for the win.
Old saying is true here, you get what you pay for and there is a reason it was cheaper than the rest.
Acro is also $594 ton$704 per unit. Cost is a factor in government procurement
Oh boy, the nit pic brigade at it again. If the label read Glock it'd magically be "perfection"
At least by Gen 5.
JMANSWAT tell me about it. The guns that are great and have minimal negative critiques are reviewed and never heard about again (ie. PPQ, Rex, M&P, Ruger, Steyr etc) and it's back to fucking glock reviews.
@JMANSWAT, amen brother.
Not to mention after market Glock triggers that feel the same as stock, and all the money dumped into them to make them exactly like what's stock competitor offerings. Their mag selection is the only thing I find that's useful.
Why THE FUCK would you NOT nit pick then gun our soldiers will bet their LIFE on? DUMBASS
The one thing I will say unless you’re in special operations or actual designated position in your squad you don’t really do much except qualify with your side arm. So it doesn’t surprise me that much thought wasn’t put into it.
Wow... congrats on using 17 round mags you OCD goof lol
Iron sights don't turn off or run out of battery life.
I really don't see the Army using the RDS extensively with these guns.
Indeed! All these modern features that the Army asked for; modular trigger assembly, red dot sight cut, multiple frame sizes, are NEVER going to be used by 99.9% of the military! The only guys who will ever get to mess with that stuff are special forces (who can pretty much pick whatever they want and thus will avoid this gun like the plague) and the shooting teams.
I would say that there is actually a very high chance that the Army adopts optics for the entire force. It took a while for red dots to catch on with rifles but when people saw the benefits they were put on every thing. The military will adopt the red dot for pistols, but the trust has to be developed before commanders start requesting them.
@@Locutus494 not exactly. They get to pick whats supplied for the mission. They can petition to have guns in inventory through there armorer, who puts in the order which may or may not be supplied. but that's about it.
@@Silentblogger659 Yeah, I get that they don't get literally ANYTHING they want, just things in the Army's and SOCOM's inventory, but there's no way they'll choose such a flawed gun when they have so many other options, all of them better.
Shooting a pistol with MRDS without co-witnessed sights is an even more perishable skill than shooting a pistol with irons only. Putting the dot on the target is easy, but only if you can find the dot first. That takes some practice.
Just want to say there are good SIG PVD examples out there. Mine was a lowish serial number and it has held up very well
I know that SOCOM, MPs, CG Boarding crews and such carry, and possibly use, their handguns routinely, but most handguns in Combat Arms reside in their holsters. All of this gimmicky crap seems superfluous to me. Even as an A-M60 gunner in the NG, my 1911 was holstered except for qualifications.
Your right about big Army combat arms soldiers never using pistols. During my time in the active Army, 11C infantry, no one had pistols except medics and a few staff officers in the entire Battalion. Even the Battalion commander carried an M16-a1. All this was long ago when the M-1911a1 was still used. No 9mm stuff yet. Saw a few people that had .38spl revolvers though. Like mail carriers and such.
Handguns are definitely not prevelant in the combat arms world, usually only officers and senior NCO's carry. When I was deployed the troop CO, First Sergeant, XO, Platoon Leaders, and Mortar section leader had a sidearm; and I don't they ever shot it, aside from at the range when we first arrived in country.
Ron Schramm yeah standard troops don’t use the handgun unless it’s MOS needed like armorer, MP, or whatever. SNCO and Officer gun as well.
That is the way it was when I was in, from 1982 to 1986. The exception was being an Assistant M60 gunner. Both the designated gunner and I had 1911s. I also drew an assigned M16 as well.
if you got it at a store its not a real m17. its a commemorative which has major differences from the military's version.
Military should have contacted CZ and said "hey, enter your sp01 in the trials and well pay whatever your price is" lol
Great honest review
Sounds like the Military messed up. Should have gone with FN or Glock. 🤷♂️
an fns would be pretty dope to have
They shouldn't have gone with anything. A new pistol wasn't needed.
@@Locutus494 That's a moot point man. The army shouldn't have switched to the utter shitshow that was ucp and ucp-d but they did it anyways. You've literally made the same comment multiple times so please just stop.
Doge McCool I own both, in my opinion this is a better weapon than the Glock.
Just my opinion
R.B Jefferies im a Glocktard 😅. But I never liked the Sig...feels terrible in my hand and the take down level gets in the way of a thumbs forward grip. But just my opinion...glad it works for you man!
Tim, if you rotate the take down latch without locking the slide lock, you need to then reset it like you did.
The US Army got ripped off harder than a PFC buying a car on Bragg BLVD.
MrPaglissi I fail to see how they got “ripped off”. They ran extensive testing on a number of manufacturers firearms. They voluntarily chose the one they thought was the best choice. They pay for what was in the contract and the manufacturer delivers. Sooooooo where’s the rip off?
@@mxxkxxg the testing was ended early (only 12500 rounds fired through the guns instead of the planned 50000), the M17 had some teething issues (drop safe, and reliability issues). with that said i think something fishy had happened in that process
Suprised to hear you say that the DOD should have choosen the M9A3. Thanks for sharing
As an army veteran I was thinking of getting one of them.... but SIG has had put its name in the mud with all the problems... rip SIG
Stop blindly believing internet forums...
Name the problems. I've only ever heard of the drop safety issue.
Sig tards be like there is no problem. The army always picks the best tool for the job, like the m14 and ucp.
How is that a p320 problem? I'm asking specifically about the p320, not counting the drop safety issue as I pointed out earlier.
@ Alexander Brown, swallow internet koolaid much?
The military issue P320s have heavier slides for the 124grn +P loads the military uses. The civilian market versions of the pistols have material milled out of the slide to make them more compatible with commercial ammunition. You can buy a heavier weight recoil spring assembly to be able to shoot +P ammunition regularly.
19X 💪💪
You truly should head up a quality control “gauntlet” for military firearms-this would either give the military the true state of the art firearms or none would truly pass. Your observations and critical thinking skills are wonderful when looking at Murphy’s law in the true life and death aspects of firearms. Thank you for your channel.
The Aimpoint lense will fog up when you get out of an air conditioned car as well. You’re talking nonsense.
i have the M17 w/ the Delta Point. i absolutely love it. I can hit a fist size group of 42 (2 -21rd mags) rounds in record time with a delta point.
I hated my sig p320. I sold it and bought a high point
I can tell you love quality! :)
Hi-Point: Reliable!
A man of discerning taste
Why change one POS for another
Is it your “problem solver”?
Just found this video. I recently got an M18 and installed a Romeo1 Pro. The install was amazingly easy as was zeroing the new sight. My only issue now is finding an OWB holster for it. The Romeo is 2-3 mil wider on each side of the slide. Not sure why Sig made it that big but it doesn't have a chance of fitting my BladeTech holster.
Thanks in advance.
Just stick with a Glock. Plain and simple.
There's a reason many people don't drive Honda Civics...
Nah you need to look cool in the military. Very important.
Glock grips don’t fit most people. Grip angle is wrong as well.
Why are sig p320 videos full of Glock people? It's like Glocktards have an emotional scar from losing the mhs program.
@@katmarriot4269 the army picked ucp too, they know garbage and they buy it.
Just got the p320-m18. Excited to go put rounds thru it!