What's the Deal with the SIG P320 Exploding and Firing "Un-Commanded"?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- utreon.com/c/forgottenweapons/
/ forgottenweapons
www.floatplane.com/channel/For...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenweapons.com
Social media is very excited these days about "exploding" SIG 320s...so let's consider what might actually be happening.
Of course, this discussion is invariably clouded by the fact that the P320 did have a legitimate drop-safety problem a few years ago. It was fixed, but many people don't bother to distinguish between that issue and other alleged malfunctions. So are SIGs really exploding right and left, or is this a case of social media attention making a typical number of incidents with a variety of causes look like a huge trend?
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 1 มิถุนายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3canzHC_d0k/mqdefault.jpg)
Get Entered to WIN this authentic 101st Airborne M17!
go.getenteredtowin.com/forgottenweapons
Deadline is 04/28/23 @ 11:59pm (PST).
But you must provide a DD214 showing service in the 101st. All others need not apply.
Ian, there was some video and audio sync issues around 18 mins into the video.
Is this one drop safe? "Authentic" and "surplus" make me think it isn't we should know before participating please.
But first, buy this $49 coffee mug!!
Can we enter if we live outside the US? (but donate it to someone who does, should we win)
As a LEO and departmental armorer I can attest you’d be surprised as just how bad and inept some LEOs can be win guns.
Nepotism is a thing.
And when you have to lug around a gun you'll never use all day everyday, people get lazy.
@@bhief473 You mean Sig's? They fixed the malfunction years ago
As a former soldier I can say with full authority that you don't have the monopoly. Someone sitting next to a pile of bagged artillery propellant with a cigarette in his mouth is just one of the many incidents from my short 4 year career that springs to mind.
@@samsonsoturian6013 I mean all the Leo law suit’s claiming the gun went off in holster. Everyone knows it’s most likely they all were fingering the trigger in some manor, but they’ll never admit that
@@bhief473 Yep, another armorer here, and I will second that sentiment. No one wants to be the guy who doesn't know how to properly handle their weapon.
I had a customer return a 320 several years ago. The pistol was "completely undependable. A piece of junk". The trigger "felt squishy" or made "funny clicks". Also, "The trigger often had to be pulled twice to fire a round." (WTF?) I disassembled the pistol, asked the customer who had replaced the original trigger with a flat trigger. The customer had replaced the trigger...and put the trigger bar spring in backwards. Customer messes up, blames the pistol. 9 times out of ten.
I’m a police officer and firearms instructor at a department with just south of 1,000 officers, and we’re almost all issued the 320, save for some plainclothes units who are authorized to carry the 365. Last time I checked we had about 1,000 320’s in inventory and there’s about 950 that are carried every day. When we first got issued them pre-recall, we had one gun go off from a drop. An officer was in a scuffle with someone who tried to grab his gun. He managed to get it out of the holster and in the struggle, the Sig ended up getting spiked into the ground at just the right angle that it popped a round off in the air. We did some testing and were able to replicate it on a couple occasions. Sig immediately took our guns back and refitted them. We didn’t have another issue since and were unable to replicate it with the fixed guns.
As a member of the firearms instruction unit, we investigate every negligent/unintended discharge as well to determine what went wrong: was it a gun problem, a user problem, or very rarely was it a perfect confluence of events that caused the weapon to go off with no input from the officer but also not because of a fault with the gun. We’ve had a couple incidents where an officer fucked up and holstered with their finger in the trigger guard, or failed to clear the chamber before “dry firing” or something like that. Those officers immediately had their guns taken away and went through extensive re-training. One had already done this once and been re-trained, then managed to ND again a couple months after, and was immediately fired.
The couple incidents where we’ve had a 320 go off with no user input (besides the one drop) have all been not the fault of the gun, but the holster. Since we carry light-bearing guns, our holsters have a bit of a gap near the trigger guard to allow the light to slide in when holstering. We’ve had a couple situations where something like a seatbelt clip or branch has managed to get wedged in there just right and pull the trigger. When we investigated these incidents, we were pretty quickly able to determine that the problem was not with the gun, and that it hadn’t just gone off randomly, although that was of course the initial rumor that started flying around.
I’ve yet to see a single 320 randomly go off for no reason, and I certainly haven’t seen a Sig blow up, despite the fact that we have about 1,000 officers putting 500 rounds each through them per month at minimum during mandatory firearms training.
Sounds like that trigger got pulled. You don’t get your gun stolen by a suspect and they don’t put a finger on the trigger.
@tax905972 Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. Not every gun grabbed automatically means they get a finger in the guard. Use your damn head.
Great examples. I have a slightly off topic question due to your position. Is 500 rounds a month per officer common place among departments?
@@DrPosion why would it be? A police officer goes to the range twice a year for state recertification. A police officer 👮♀️ does endless list of things besides using a firearm.
@@tax905972 because the comment poster said that's what his department policy is for training?
I hear the Marines have started using Sig 320s as improvised grenades. Got it on good authority from a friend who’s neighbor’s kid’s pediatrician heard it from a cousin whose kid is thinking of possibly enlisting in the Navy.
Underrated comment.
Suggest that young man, or anyone not enlist in the Navy or other service pending any future hot war with China the US announced would be between 20😊25 and 2027, but could be sooner.
In all expert war scenarios in China's backyard ( nearly all don't understand that Taiwan is only a little more than 100 miles off the coast of China), the US Navy surface fleet lost tens of thousands since they have NO defense for China's Hypersonic missiles, more advanced shipboard missile systems, long range land based systems, and most advanced air defense systems similar to Russia's reaching out upwards of 1,000 km.
US has nothing even remotely close and cannot maintain supply lines across the Pacific since every base in the region is vulnerable to unstoppable attacks.
The Chinese Navy is also the world's largest and since new, the most technologically advanced.
Sadly a bad time for a young person to enlist in any service since we're at the mercy of the President and Congress going to war on a whim.
They will not ask the American People to vote in going to war.
There are preparations for new hostilities in the Middle East including Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, a joint Canadian US Haiti invasion is in the works recently presented at the UN, the new hostilities in Sudan are a result of US interference and we already have troops in Africa.
Remember the US Presidential off-ramp when the economy is faltering, the world de-dollerizing, Ukraine failure, Biden taking us to the brink of WWIII and Nuclear Armageddon...
Become a WARTIME President.
Other than Panama and Granada the US hasn't won a military action since WWII (and not alone) and is not now equipped to win a WW scale action against Russia or China who statistically have Military Escalatory Dominance in their respective regions.
If we can't beat goat herders how are we going to beat a peer or peer+ military?
Do some research on the GAO's military audits. and nvestigations over the last few years and like they titled one report, it will take years before the Navy and Marines are combat ready. It's bad across the board for the Pentagon so don't believe the misinformation we get every day.
I'm I the first person to get that you're joking ?
@@victorwaddell6530 I think Tim Fixin Stuff got it as well. Remember Poe's Law, without an explicit indicator of parody many will take statements on the web as true when they are actually parody.
😂😂😂
“It went off on its own!”
-Cops after a ND
And shot a black guy in the back, all 15 times, all on its own
I've got to keep up. Nobody told me that Alec Baldwin had joined the police force.
Good on him.
@@gansior4744 fun fact , i was recently perma banned off of reddit
@@dartdukii Reddit is a cesspool.
It is now that im not on it.
I’m a range safety officer at my local shooting range. I spend many hours watching the fire lines. Without a doubt, the individuals who display the worst safety consideration and/or show a general nonchalance about muzzle discipline are cops. It is a well known phenomenon amongst the RSOs to the point where we all take note when a cop is on the range and make an extra effort to pay close attention to them. I think their casual handling of firearms is a result of their daily familiarity with weapons and just handling them day in and day out as part of their normal routine to the point that they lose sensitivity and awareness.
That’s interesting and concerning to hear.
They also have egos out the ass and it's hard to get training to stick with them.
Complacency is the biggest killer when it comes to firearms.
"...lose sensitivity and awareness."
That's why the firearms handling rules need to become something done out of habit rather than something of specific thought.
I spend just as much time with guns and haven't muzzled the back of a child's head yet.
The one conversation nobody is having is simply the basic design and function of the Sig P320. The striker on the 320 is always cocked and a trigger pull only releases it; unlike the Glock, in which the trigger pull cocks the striker, then fires it; much like a double action revolver. In that respect, the 320 is more like a revolver with the hammer cocked. I believe that this is where the "Un-commanded discharges" are coming from. Yes, the trigger is being pulled, just not by your finger.
There have been a few instances caught on camera, showing the 320 firing from in the holster, where the officer's hands are nowhere near it. It is speculated that when the gun was holstered, a portion of the officer's jacket entered the holster and found its way into the trigger guard, putting some pressure in the trigger. When the officer moved his/her body in a specific way, the trigger pull was completed, causing the discharge. There was also speculation that the wrong holster may have been used (or possibly one of those "universal" holsters) and something inside the holster caught the trigger.
This isn't an issue with other pistols because they all have some other type of safety: The 1911 has both a thumb safety and a web safety, the Springfield XD (which is also always cocked) has a web safety, the Glock has a double action trigger with trigger safety. I believe the absence of some type of safety, combined with the fairly short/light trigger pull of the 320 and the fact that it's always cocked, is causing more negligent/accidental/un-commanded discharges than with previous models. I believe that carrying a P320 with a round in the chamber is similar to carrying a double-action revolver with the hammer cocked.
I agree, but with a proper holster and competent handling it will not be an issue.
The Glock striker is partially tension, and the trigger completes the stroke. It is not "double action". Double action is an action belonging to hammer fired guns. However your point is well taken. The P320 is safe as long as the user knows what he is doing. THe trigger is not as forgiving as a stock Glock trigger for sure.
So the army and marines were right to ask for a manual safety i guess
@@smalltown1360 Actually I hate 320s. I just don’t like the way they shoot. I carry my Glock or my M&P. And my opinion on the matter has since changed.
Had mine for 6 years. Carry with one in the chamber everyday and somehow it has never went off without me pulling the trigger. People with negligent discharges lie all the time. Especially police officers who could get fired for it.
That makes two of us. Not the same amount of years, but I've even tripped while carrying and smacked my hip against a hard surface. Even that didn't make it go off.
th-cam.com/video/hCWyFH0P2LA/w-d-xo.html
There are over 400 people involved in the lawsuit about negligent discharge of this weapon. Many are cops and many are not. You are saying they are all liars? What is your proof here pal that they are all lying? You are a sample size of 1. You are statistically insignificant. But you are still entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean everyone else is lying. I've seen video of the pistol firing in a cops holster. Pretty convincing to me, and sig addressed it so we know the problem did exist. Do you deny that also? Is everyone at Sig lying also even after they tried to FIx the gun??
bumping this to see how you feel now that we all saw that one cops 320 go off clearly by itself. unless you're still coping telling yourself it wasn't holstered properly. yours might be a good one but sig is a dogshit company
@@ralphhardyman1148You've never seen the data from when the military tested the Sig P226 back when they went with the Beretta 92 (M9) then. It actually beat the Beretta 92 in the majority of categories. A company that makes a pistol that good can't be trash.
To the train derailment, they are classified as minor or major. Minor is exceedingly common. It is like the flat tire of railroads. Major is like the 100 car pileup and used to be exceptionally rare.
So seeing more then a couple major derailments a year is a great big flashing warning sign that there are huge issues.
On the other hand, the media perks up after a newsworthy (major) derailment, and will pick up stories about every derailment, major and minor, for weeks thereafter.
Almost like deferred maintenance,no reinvestment, supply chain issues, and cost cutting are synonymous with, and work almost as well as, deliberate sabotage.😂
I've a mate who works The British Railway Network, permanent way. He said the same thing in the pub last week, when we were discussing the woes on The American Railways.
Yes, to all the above. What they will tell you is most minors happen in the yard, leaving you to deduce majors happen in a town near you. It should be the other way around, and maintenance / parts should not be the first thing fired.
@@jamesbridges7750 no chance it coincidentally happens when the train is coincidentally carrying tons of coincidentally toxic AF chemicals. wild
Even ridiculously unlikely stuff will happen if you do it often enough, which is why aircraft developers have to fix even stuff with a failure rate of 1 in a billion per flight hour if it could mean loss of the aircraft. Most bizarre one I had to deal with was the chance of a cosmic ray randomly flipping a specific bit in a chip just as the aircraft was landing. I cranked the numbers - likelihood of it happening, likely fleet size, likely number of flights/day, likely service life, and it came out as something we needed to fix.
The sig firing can be replicated reliably with a rubber mallet.
@@-John-Doe- did you not watch the video dude?
@@ianwlkr I did.
The sig prior to upgrade was not
_’ridiculously unlikely.’_
_’a failure rate of 1 in a billion’_
Etc
It was a repeatable design flaw that needed to be addressed. If you have an older model you should have it upgraded.
Did you watch the video, dude?
With more than 100,000 commercial flights every day, I'd better hope they fix stuff with a failure rate of 1 in a billion per flight hour. I can't find a number for number of hours, but if it's around 20 million that would mean there's a 1.98% chance it'll happen in a given year.
Obviously the number of flights is for all plane types and they don't all share components. But still.
@@ianwlkr What in the video contradicted anything he said? Don't simp for youtube videos, dude, they don't care about you.
Great video. I have one of the first 1000 P320 full size pistols. I noticed the fire control assembly made weird clicks, and the slide would not return to battery every time, but mostly ignored it. When Sig announced the voluntary recall, I waited a year and a half, and then sent it in. The fire control no longer clicks, and the gun returns to battery every time. In fact, I wish I had sent it in sooner. I trust this gun, and feel it won't fire unless I pull the trigger or do something stupid.
I was issued the P320 RXP X Compact 6 months ago. Red dot and light love it. Do not love the Safariland holster with level freaking 4 or whatever retention. One thing overlooked is the holsters these guns are put into. If you look inside my Safariland, there's alot going on. It's not just a weapon over mold kydex. We watched videos of the gun going off in a holster of a couple of different officers. Both occasions they had thier hands either holding paperwork or on a suspect. Not manipulating the weapon in any way. I encourage Ian and anyone else to watch those videos. I carried a P226 for ten yrs when I first got on in 1999 and I don't recall any of these issues. I believe there is a perfect storm type scenario at play and I hope it is resolved. Because I do like my duty gun! God bless, stay safe everyone, stay, healthy.
Exactly. In a recent AD the officer had a ‘safety’ holster which had a retention hood plus on holster storage for a tourniquet. Then add all the other stuff on an officer’s belt.
Nobody is testing all those interactions….. was it the gun, the holster design, 5 years of wear on the holster, or a tourniquet sitting too high?
Lots of possible interactions.
I have literally never seen a gun go off without any "manipulation" and the videos you suggest exist don't seem to be anywhere. There are a ton of glock fanbois that would love to knock out the competition and also have stories about these videos but never come up with them and at best they show the same old ones where people have their hands on the weapon and are holstering it... the same times when glocks go off.
Stop spreading nonsense unless you actually bring evidence.
Your remark about tossing the Sig over the wall and seeing if it would explode reminded me of an event from the early 80’s. Was in a gun shop in Alpharetta, GA. Glock was still a fairly new product. To show the durability of the gun he drew it from his holster and, without clearing it, tossed it across the showroom. I never, ever went back in that store again.
But, did you die?!
I've heard stories about sales pitches done like this by Glock in the 1980s, usually loaded with blanks. It's definitely well over the line of what we consider to be safe nowadays, but I guess if you're 100% absolutely sure that the gun will not go off (which, with a Glock, is indeed a certainty) it just *seems* unsafe or something. Plus, if you're trying to sell people away from their Smith and Wesson 5906 or 459s it's one hell of a sales pitch - you absolutely cannot do that with one of those!
What gunstore was it? I used to live near there.
@@JimoftheSlim Reminds me of the video Ian did on the Burgess folding shotgun, and the story of one of the company's salesmen / exhibition shooters having a meeting with Theodore Roosevelt (NYPD Commissioner at the time) in which he walked in with the folded shotgun under his jacket, and after a few minutes of small talk, whipped out the shotgun and fired a full tube of six blanks into the ceiling. Roosevelt found it amusing and impressive, and ended up ordering a bunch for prison guards.
@@quiettime6871 the ratchet mentality can only go so far 😢
I'll never forget Tex, and how he had the honesty to show us his video -- and how people piled on him for it. I love him for being honest, and for showing us the consequences of mistakes in gun handling.
I don't know who Tex is. Can you tell me what happened?
(When I try to look it up it just shows me stuff like "texas gun laws" and I don't really know what to look for)
@@henrykb.7808 Tex Grebner, there's a video of him saying after he shot him self very deliberately, in an irritated but frank matter "I just f***ing shot myself."
Search for - tex grebner. I just fucking shot myself.
Its an oldie but a goodie. Haha.
@@henrykb.7808 th-cam.com/video/zYvAxLX6OzE/w-d-xo.html
@@LitJitsu
Yeah, that seems to be what he was talking about.
I hope that Tex guy fully recovered from that. That really doesn't look pleasant.
Civilian MP here, we have over 100 m17s and that's not even counting our sister base. You could argue within those 100 people there's some that aren't trained well. They get shot a lot. They get handled a lot. They get bounced around a lot. They get cleaned a lot. In the 3 years we've had them I can honestly stand "in front" of Sig with confidence as we have not had a single issue.
My M18 has been fine and I’ve never had that issue even drop safe.
How are you a civilian and an MP? are you retired?
@@redneckrebel9830 DACP and DAF both have Civilian Police.
@@redneckrebel9830 Bases hire civilian agencies to help man gates and conduct LE patrols on most CONUS bases, and some overseas too
@@redneckrebel9830some bases contract security officers to act as police/gate guards and Dept. of the Army will hire actual police, and they will issue them M17s.
I have the Sig P250 Compact in 9mm and full size kit for .45 ACP. The 320 is based on the 250, the main difference between the two being the P250 uses a spurless hammer system, while the P320 uses their new striker system. The P250 is double-action only, so the trigger is heavier than the trigger for the P320, but it still feels light enough to pull. Having owned it since 2016, so far it's been no issues. Fantastic carry gun. If I could describe it, it feels like a modern compact pistol with a classic revolver trigger.
If some of you are considering the P320 but are still iffy about it, I would consider trying out the P250; cheaper price, same feel, same modular kits and magazines, but with a double-action trigger with a revolver like sturdy pull.
I'm a Quality Analyst at an engine factory. You really see why reputation is so important here, even a little problem can blow up (hehe) into a huge problem for your company or product's reputation. That's why you are *supposed* to focus only on quality, and let production naturally increase while improving your process. It doesn't matter that you're making 1,000 pistols a day, when nobody will buy them because the reputation for quality is so bad. It doesn't matter if your quality is actually bad or not, your potential customers have already decided that for you. To prevent that, protect the quality at all costs, don't give them an excuse to drag you through the mud.
Or lower your prices 🤷😁
Hi-point disagrees 😂
Americans say the L85A2 is terrible because it's ridiculously heavy and awkward for a 5.56 rifle. They fixed the reliability issues, but what remains is a subpar rifle that at least works.
My last position was in quality control for orders prior to manufacturing, and it's honestly astonishing how anything gets built well these days. There's so much pressure to produce volume in a short time frame and it's frustrating seeing mistakes get made because no one wants to take the time to do things right or funnel feedback to the right people to correct mistakes. Everyone wants everything now, made perfect, and cheap, and aren't willing admit one of those has to be compromised.
Good point. In this often angry, stressed-out society, it's amusing how one simple thing can get blown to the Moon, figuratively.
This topic reminds me of what happened to my dad. He had a pocket pistol in his pocket without a holster and accidentally put his car keys in that pocket. He pulled out his car keys, which pulled the trigger, causing the gun to go off. He only got a torn pant leg. Lesson learned.
He should probably just stick with the pocket sand. Safer.
I dont get that. I would never leave a gun loaded and unsecured anywhere. Its more likely going to kill you than its going to save you.
I hope you got your intelligence from your mom...
Glad he didn't get hurt and learned from the experience. Sadly the p320 is one pistol where people are continually blaming the firearm because of a known defect that was fixed years ago. Hopefully he tested the holster to make sure it didn't pull the trigger in anyway. It's one of the things I like to do to excess and if I find the holster isn't fit then I will stop using it. Either way glad everything came out okay.
@@James-kg1wf sig has some responsibility in the confusion. They stated there was never any problem but they fixed it anyways. Also it discharged allegedly sitting on a bench in a group that I trusted either the rangers or some other tier 2 group. Now I think it was to save someone's career over an AD.
Thanks Ian! Yes, I think they call it Frequency Bias. The SIG P320 just gets a lot more attention than other pistols because it had some high profile teething problems early on. Now everyone just expects that it'll explode.
I got four Sigs for the last three years on rotation, and haven’t had a desk pop yet .
To tell you the truth after all these reports I got nervous and started carrying without one in the chamber in all my sigs even after the fix since everyone was bashing Sig anytime they were mentioned .
@@peterisrael2012You aren’t going to have a desk pop unless you have a pre-fix gun and get extremely unlucky on a drop or you have something pull the trigger. It’s no surprise that an extremely popular handgun has a few NDs that people refuse to admit are their fault. If there actually was an issue, it’d be more prevalent and shown in a real way other than just claims in a lawsuit or on social media. The “sigs fire by themselves and aren’t drop safe” is just “source: Trust me bro”.
The AR-15/M16 family still suffer from their shortfalls in the initial rollout in Vietnam. It's ridiculous the superstition people will hold on to.
Negligent discharge can happen in some of the most weird ways. Years ago I watched a documentary about what some of the settlers of the Old West went through as they journeyed westward. One segment was from the reading of a journal kept by a young widow whose husband was killed when he reached into the wagon to pull his rifle out when it fired. He had grabbed the rifle by the muzzle and as he attempted to pull the rifle out, the hammer caught on something and cocked. He didn't realize this and wretched the rifle even harder and that somehow caused something else in the wagon to catch on the trigger and pulled it. I remembered how sad it made me thinking about how this young couple started out on their way to what they thought would be a better life, only to end so tragically.
There have been a number of waterfowl and upland bird hunters who have pulled a loaded shotgun by the barrel and shot themselves when the trigger caught on something in their truck bed. ALWAYS FOLLOW ALL OF THE FIREARM SAFETY RULES!!!
Nah. She killed her husband and made that story up
It's nothing to be ashamed of, it happens to me when I'm excited too
how big is your mag though
@@phileas007 California compliant 😓
@@AlexanderEddy Just means you have to get creative, right?
@@DustyGamma All about the presentation.
if it wasn't for accidental discharges, some of us wouldn't be alive today.
Delightful humor, Ian - thank you for still going strong 10+ years later! You're a wonderful resource and a wonderful person!
No one in the comments noticed the left P320 in the thumbnail is an Air Gun… I was waiting for a joke or a CO2 cartridge explosion
Love how you mentioned everything including the possibility that people got some out of spec ammo which does cause issues with many firearms at times. One of the things to add in the end was that these lawsuits were lost in the instances when it was revealed that they had modified the pistol from spec and/or used a incorrect holster as this can cause a negligent discharge. I always check my holsters for any of my pistols and revolvers to the extreme to make sure nothing can cause the trigger to be pulled unless I pull it. Sadly not everyone is this safety conscious which will result in injuries or worse! Anyways thanks for the good information and fair minded video!
Iam😊
As always very informative👍. I had an issue 40 years ago with a sterling SMG that would fire full auto when set to single. It was army issue and my personal weapon. Of all the SMG’s issued to Squaddies mine was just one of a couple that didn’t perform as it should. After an incident on the range all of a sudden everyone using the Sterling seemed to have the same problem. But and here’s the big but. The armour found that my weapon had excessive ware to the fife selector. The other users just hadn’t selected the correct fire mode. So yes guns do malfunction but not as often as the users
Had the same with a sterling and STEN with stuff getting in the selector holding it in the auto position .
The major malfunction is glock fanbois that really are desperate to justify their buying decisions.
Shades of "Unintended Acceleration" issues with the Audi 5000. Graphed over time, 90+% of the reports happened immediately after it made the news, as everyone scrambled to find something other than their own mistake to blame. Huge story, drove Audi out of the US market for a number of years, but the final result was that it wasn't really a thing.
Yea, I used to fix those things. Computer would fire the 5th “cold start” fuel injector to boost idle when MawMaw was just putting it into reverse with only light brake pressure.
As I recall,
Many of those accidents were do to the gas pedal and the brake pedal being closer together than American drivers were used to. This is great if you know how to heel-toe to go faster around a corner. But if the drivers thought they were pressing down on the brake pedal, when actually they were pressing the accelerator, they would press down even harder on the accelerator. Thinking thew were putting extreme pressure on the brake pedal.
So Car and Driver and Road and track said go out and buy these great cars.
Then when the panic happened, people were stuck with Great cars that were economically worthless
And then in the mid-2000s, when it was Toyota, Subaru, and others with their all-weather floor mats getting shoved under the throttle pedal. Happened to my WRX twice before I realized you had to remove the carpeted floor mat when using the rubber ones. lol
@@GDFSTi257 that's a huge one. I wonder how many people have ended up crashing because they double-mat.
Well, it meant for those in the know, you could pick up an Audi for fairly little money :p
The phrase "safe and effective" is basically a trigger word for me at this point
I hear that and think "okay what are they not telling me"
Pure blood!
@@Dethflash The same as with literally everything else, that when its delivered en masse a very small percentage of people are going to have issues and complications, but this is far overshadowed by how many will potentially be able to keep their lives. Essentially, everything in life is rolling a dice, but rolling a dice with a disease that killed 6 million is a much worse bet than an innocuous and safe treatment used in one form or another for hundreds of years.
Always makes me laugh how people who don't even know what an MHC complex is, let alone how immunity works, somehow believes they've outsmarted essentially every doctor and medical organization in the world. But I guess Dave, the 45 year old Plumber from Oklahoma has disproven the entire field of immunology and uncovered a global conspiracy that somehow nearly every doctor is involved in.
Ditto😅
@@vaughnsadekni665 I work in clinical research with a degree in Physiology and a minor in Biochemistry.
Former LE Rangemaster - This video is 9months old and I'm still seeing issues with them going off in the holster with 0 manipulation (videos). These are supposed repaired units. The fact that a recall was needed to is suspect enough. I shot the gun before it was released at shotshow. It's a nice feeling gun with a nice trigger. Still, not going to trust it when there are plenty of others in the same price Point.
Sig went down hill when the dude that ruined Kimber took over. Hard pass.
I own 3 P320s. 2 AXG Classics and a P320 carry. 4 years with the carry model and several hundred rounds, never had a problem. The 2 AXGs I've had for 2 years and several hundred rounds with no issues. Also, I only use Speer 124 grain +p duty ammo. Never had a misfire, fail-to-fire, or "out of battery" problem. On one of the AXGs, I added a threaded barrel and a slide with suppressor sights. Still no issues.
They got those Shake awake triggers
LOL
The clapper
It's a feature, not a bug.
Thanks for the example of his point .
When Glock had the same issues decades after its release people understood but Sig isn’t given that same treatment.
I like Glocks a lot but the fan base is so toxic .
There is a TH-cam channel called Sig Mechanics that goes into depth of the differences between the original and newer FCU. The original p320 was basically the m17/M18 without the safety. The only means of keeping the trigger from coming back unintentionally was the external safety to which Sig removed on the original p320. Because of the removal of the external safety and weight of the trigger, a p320 will be able to fire of dropped at a certain height and angle. The newer FCUs added an internal disconnector and there a shelf milled into the slide where it sits. The disconnector will be depressed when slide goes back, so it would be impossible for the pistol to fire when out of battery.
Unless you're a cop who puts it into her purse loaded and upholstered.
@@Mr_Zimm it was holsters in the purse situation but it was one of those open style serpa holsters
The P320 predates the M17; the latter was derived from the former as a response to the Army's MHS competition.
It didn't have an OOB sear disconnector safety in the first place? The fucking 1911 has one, I fail to see how anyone can know that and even consider buying a Sig, it was bad enough they didn't have a trigger safety like every other competently designed striker fired gun on the market has had since 1982. I've sworn off Sig since I shot a US made 226 and felt how trash it was compared to literally all of it's competition on top of being unreliable, can't even believe there are people who would willingly give money to them anymore let alone that our troops are now stuck with both their stupid committee designed abortion of a rifle and their inferior knockoff of the handgun equivalent of a base model Toyota Corolla with manual windows and a tape deck.
Thank you-sounds very interesting. I am going to check it out. I love it when somone like yourself provides something tangible to grasp on to, instead of a theory or a "Flighty" comment-Thank you-
When we had the P210 as our service pistol in the Danish Army you could buy your own holsters. A lot of soldiers did that - i included... the pistol was old, only had 8 shots, really good sights for a shooting range.. but not a tight spot. So you did everything to shave off the disadvantages it was to have an old pistol.
When we adopted the P320dk (the comapct upper reciever on a shortened lower part - its because the compact we were offered didn't come with rails for mounting laser/light etc. And denmark wanted that) in the Danish Army. It was no longer allowed to buy your own holsters as the holsters was seen as part of the safety.
I have a feeling that a lot of these accidents happen because of bad holsters. When the gun has no safety - which, if you ask me, is really nice in a pistol - you need a good holster that can protect that trigger.
Edit: corrected some spelling and specified what i meant by mounting
WTF are you talking about? You can get compacts with optic cutouts...
Oh yes have to protect that tricker... oh you mean trigger.
@@thomgizzizYeah. I never talked about optics. Our pistol had optics cut out too for micro aimpoints.
Scope is only handed out for our SOFs though. What I meant was that the compact lacked picatinny rails for mounting lasers/lights.
The story goes that when Denmark was looking for a new service pistol SIG offered the Compact with no rails, and the regular with Rails.
Denmark asked SIG if they could get the compact upper with the regular lower, cut shorter and SIG said yes. This made our pistol significantly shorter than the US. army version (I had a chance to compare them in Iraq 2019 - when I served alongside US soldiers)
We also opted for 21 round mags instead of 17 round
- that is the long story.
That being said. googling the SIG p320 x-carry comes with a lot of civilian models with rails - Is it because SIG decided to sell a good idea? or it was always an option, just not an option offered for the danish army at the time... we dont know.
Any way... thank you for helping me with the spelling - yes of course i meant "trigger"
- I edited the original post to clarify that it was rails, not scope mountings - and the spelling mistake :)
Honestly thank you for the breakdown. As a member of the Army and also someone looking for a good concealed carry weapon, I have been learning about pistols, and it has lead me to want to educate myself on the P320. Especially with my chance of using it soon. At first I have been slightly concerned about the P320 but your breakdown has really helped me to understand the current situation revolving it so I appreciate that very much!
*cough* CZ P10C *cough*
Guy saying P10c is actually pretty right i got around 7k rpunds through mine and they are like 500$
Officer/MOS/Unit would affect how often you'd actually use and/or field an M17. You could just buy one as well -If you wanna really get intimate with it. Personally I'd slap a WC frame on it (if you end up purchasing one). Keep in mind that if you end up in communist parts of the country, you'll need to make sure your firearms are compliant -ie you're stationed at NTC, or have a stint at West Point as examples. *Objectively; there are far better options for concealed carry than the P320 - in fact, it's not even intended as a CCW, so there's that point as well.
Whenever I hear these kinds of claims I always image the scene from true lies where the uzi is bouncing down the stairs magically firing and killing all the bad guys.
The gun the gun grabbers imagine exists in their nightmare bro. Like as if the uzi going to school and shooting kids all by itself 😂😂
Shooah, heahs my invitation. 💣
The infamous death slinky!
Classic
Except that's not actually impossible to have happen.
I doubt the exact circumstances needed to get a gun shooting as it's bouncing down stairs have ever happened, but a fully automatic rifle in semi automatic mode going full auto, does happen from time to time.
Police are usually some of the least proficient people with firearms. Very few of them are actually “gun guys”. Their sidearms and simply a tool they carry but seldom use. Another issue that seems to have popped up (particularly with the Canuck special forces incident) is agencies are issuing the pistols but trying to reuse holsters that aren’t specific to the P320. The gun might fit but doesn’t have the specific trigger coverage and locking that a model specific holster designed for the gun would have. I find confidence in the safety of your carry pistol has to be at 100%. I am confident to that level with a chambered round with an M18 (external safety) and HK with the LEM trigger. I would never carry a P80 or any home built gun with a chambered round. Not enough confidence in something like that.
Seconded. There is so much “fuddlore” that comes from “my buddy who’s a cop”. People forget that even the most casual recreational shooter has far more trigger time and knowledge than the average cop. The majority of them do only enough to pass the low bar of qualifying with their sidearm and then never train or educate themselves further.
@@PrebleStreetRecords As someone whos pops is a LEO, you're absolutely correct. He hates guns and qualifies once a year so one range trip a year lol
It depends my dad used the range weekly, he gets free ammo for training, and there is quite a few officers on CPD that do this
@@bigdumbtruck and for as many that do that, there's dozens that don't
@@PrebleStreetRecords no. Do you know most LEOs, ever been employed as one, ever attended an academy, or ever been in a real gunfight?
Obviously not.
I always appreciate honest , informed commentary. Thank you. Coming clean with your "bias" showed integrity. In the case of the 320, i think much of the criticism has its base in brand loyalty to other manufacturers. Sig winning the military contract, among others has added to this. I love my Glocks, yet as a younger fellow, I was a critic. I ended up admitting I was wrong. I started relying more on experience and informed commentary, rather than just stories. I own only 2 Sigs, fewer than I own by other fine companies: Glock, Ruger, Smith, Taurus, etc. I have heard stories about them all, even a few recalls. I would not part with any of them. I would not keep them if I had any doubts. Several I have owned for decades. The Sigs are relatively new to my carry and home protection choices. So far, so good. Follow safety rules, diligently, Carry in the right holster. We are lucky to have so many fine choices. Preferring one should not mean wrongly insulting the others! Thanks again.
Just going over the Llama page on Wikipedia, it's interesting to note how its original product, the striker-fired Ruby had a tendency to shoot full-automatic after a typical break-in period. Rather than recall the Ruby, it was later fitted with a high capacity magazine to fill the role of a submachine pistol
Nice! I like how Llama took a defect, and turned it into a feature!
Brilliant save
In this crazy world, there's probably also a bunch of SIG P320 owners who don't want their guns fixed because then they can claim they have an original, before the fix, gun. A collectors item.
And that, my dear summer child, is called STUPIDITY!
Hi, I have an original before the fix gun. its 100% a collectors item. definitely not my carry gun /s
Nah. It's the 6-10 weeks sig claims they'll have the gun that stopped me from sending it in.
it'll be fine. hopefully.
Its not an unfounded stance to have. There are examples of this in the record where early,error prone production guns have brought quite a bit more at auction than their updated,later model counterparts.
Maybe 15-20% of 320 buyers might send them back but most people wont. And its not just from a value standpoint...most of the consumer base just dont want to go through the trouble of sending back to the factory.
There are still old model Ruger Blackhawks that haven't been converted.
They're worth more $$$ as well.
I've got an unfixed 320 that I've refused to send in because it shoots really well and I don't want to mess anything up.
This happened in recent Canadian military trials too. A JTF2 guy shot himself in the leg and they said it was the 320s fault and then later they retracted their statements saying it was the holster
Yeah, but I can’t say it surprises me. Most of the guys at Dwyer Hill are good, but some inevitably catch “Cowboyitis”. When you’re supposedly Tier 1, it’s hard for other people to tell you to stop screwing around.
@@domovie1 100%
@@domovie1 doesn't help when the procurement idiots buy new guns but not holsters.
Well theyre canadian so i say its 60% chance they shot themselves and 40% change the sig did it.
@@TheAnnoyingBoss ok 🤡
I have a 320 compact and it shot great out of the box. It was my first striker fired pistol. I sent it in with the voluntary recall and that's when I started having problems. Failure to eject on every magazine and the slide would lock up. I had no idea what was going on and when the slide locked up the day I got it back from Sig Sauer service I sent it right back at them. That's the part that irked me. They called me and said they did not send it to me in that condition and if I sent it in for service again they would charge me, even though it was under warranty. I was eventually able to diagnose the problem. The safety upgrades caused the slide to travel more slowly and that caused friction between the barrel block and the top of the slide because they were in contact for a longer period. I bought some dry lube and applied to to both the top of the barrel block and the bottom of the slide and the problems ended. I was satisfied it was safe to operate. However, the customer service experience with Sig Sauer was so unpleasant it permanently soured me from buying their products. I had my Beretta 92fs stop working and I sent in in for service, knowing that my warranty had long expired and it would cost me. Less than two weeks late I received it back from Beretta with a note that my warranty had expired and the next time I would have to pay for repairs. They had replaced all of the springs, test fired it, cleaned it and shipped it back to me at no cost, even though it was not under warranty. I've bought Berettas since then but no Sig Sauer.
I’ve personally seen an X5 blow out the side of the frame at a match but the dude was running reloads made by a friend. We all agreed that it must have been a double charged cartridge. I’ve run thousands of rounds thru my various competition P320 variants without an even single malfunction. I always use quality factory ammo .
Ian described many situations that can cause unintentional discharges and he called them accidental. I'd call most of them negligent discharges: unintentional but preventable (e.g., don't wrap a handgun in clothing and pack it into a duffle bag).
Don’t wrap or pack a loaded handgun in a duffel bag.
So are only people who own Sigs doing unsafe things?
@@americancapitalist9094 No, but most of those people aren't glomming onto a narrative that their guns are discharging spontaneously without the trigger being pulled.
Don't have a round in the chamber...!
@@americancapitalist9094
Once a narrative with financial incentive begins, ambulance chasers & people looking to offload responsibility for negligence &/or cash in will soon follow en masse.
The very first P320 X-Five's had an even more unsupported chamber and many of them here in Aus regularly ballooned out brand new or once fired cases just above the rim in this region of the chamber, and this is with 130PF competition loads, which are softer and weaker than regular factory loads, this took Sig a while to fix internationally but they fixed it nearly instantly in the US.
I feel like a lot of guns suffer from that, my 1911s and a hi power copy both balloon cases slightly right above the feed ramp
the fact of that matter is there are real issues with sig to a far greater extent that other guns. heuristically, it's easy to say glock had those those, 1911 had those too, cops always blame the gun, etc, etc. but i think the fact that sig had to do change the engineering on all their new guns, and offered a voluntary upgrade to address the reported issues says a lot about those issues being factual.
Australia = Commies
@@cagneybillingsley2165 yup, but at least sig did the right thing and fixed it. A company can easily say so sad too bad
Makes me wonder about the relative numbers of SIGs in the US versus rest of the world.
And let's not forget the sheer number of personal injury lawyers in the US.
The biggest problem with the LEO P320s is that the triggers were wayy too good for a typical LEO
Yeah, I think "good" triggers for target shooting are generally not as good on the street if they're light and quick.
I believe that's why S&W made the "New York trigger". I bought a new S&W 5946 and it has an 11 pound trigger pull.
@jconradh yea, but NY went too far with that. Those guns already had acceptable stock triggers, then NY made it so heavy that accuracy is severely reduced. I've shot those NYPD trigger glocks... terrible!
@@spldrong Yeah, probably why the NYPD don't shoot well.
The issue is actually that the lack of a blade trigger leaves them vulnerable to actuation by anything simply rubbing against the side of the trigger, as can happen while aligning your grip while drawing the firearm. If your finger joints bend backwards while gripping firmly in a high-stress situation, it can happen. Wearing gloves makes this significantly worse. Were the trigger guard a little bit wider or the trigger itself a bit narrower, this could not happen. Likewise if there were a blade trigger. I did some testing with my M17 and determined this is absolutely possible. Of course, my M17 having a safety and training to disengage the safety while the gun is being brought up negates any safety issue.
I've been carrying my P320 every day, in a kinda cheap paddle holster with no safety and usually a round in the chamber for two years. No issues yet and I must say it's an accurate pistol and I really like it. Should be noted my P320 is post recall though and has the thinner trigger.
Same, carry daily for just under 2 years. No issues.
Sent mine in for the voluntary upgrade and I've carried it ever since. Though I did eventually install an Agency Arms trigger, which gives es it a trigger safety, for added peace of mind.
For myself I shoot my 1886 45LC Cattleman revolver the best. Better than all my 9mm’s
@@Sledgehammer1944 the yeehaw caliber
@Tetrumo - It must be the weight of it and 5.5" barrel, but the Charcoal blued metal makes me feel like a cowboy too. I'm thinking I will start open carrying it with a bullet belt
I have to admit, I was all ready to buy a P320 Compact, but at the last second, pivoted to an HK45C because I was slightly worried about the issue. It’s hard to find clarity on the internet, but your channel is always a good place for it. Thank you for posting this.
The Sig upgrade was not just a lighter mass trigger they also re-worked the sear surfaces. As for the NDs out in the press unless human error is 100% removed from the equation and points to the gun I would not worry about it.
go ahead and buy it I did and I love it.....the newer version of the P320 doesn't have this problem
@@wslcfarm I’ve been thinking about it. I have a Glock 48 I don’t really love and I get the feeling a P320 Compact would fit my hand better.
I've got 7 of them. Some straight from factory, some built from just the fcu. Great guns. Love em all. Can't recall any issues other than cycling issues running suppressed or comped. My church pays for training for members to be licensed security officers. I use one 320 for owb in uniform, and also iwb an xcompact plain clothes. I'll rotate a couple for home defense and my axg scorpion is my shtf gun. I trust them to save not only my life but the lives of our church members.
Ian I have watched you for more than a decade. thanks for being a level headed voice in the gun community.
I've had situation three happen twice with my M-17. The first was just a bit surprising. It was an unusual report and stoppage. The bad round cleared in a normal malfunction drill and it continued to function. I've only had a half dozen stoppages with this gun and all of them have been ammunition related. The second occurrence was a couple of magazines later and it blew the extractor out of the gun with no other damage. Both rounds were reloads and both were Tula brass. I've never bought Tula brass ammo, but I do pick up range brass.
I spent a lot of time looking into it and I found that all of my semi auto pistols including the Sig will fire with the slide just a few thousandths from fully closed. I previously called this out of battery, but technically the breech face is still in contact. so it is in battery. As noted in this video and others, this Sig doesn't support the case as well as some other guns. I also found that the Tula cases had a reputation of being a little weak, and , my loads show no signs of pressure, but they are on the upper end of the scale for that powder. I also wondered if the cases were a little long.
To prevent future occurrences, I will screen my brass a bit more thoroughly and will certainly eliminate all Tula brass cases. I bought a block type chamber gauge so that I could check a hundred rounds at a time for length. I checked about 4K rounds that I had loaded and found about 8 or ten that were marginally long, I did later load and fire those under controlled circumstances without issue. I also found 5 that were clearly too long.They were disassembled and the brass destroyed. We'll see how that plan goes. I'll soon be putting lots of rounds through this gun.
Edited to add the brand of the case that had the issues. and edited a second time for clarity.
Additional information. I was sorting some range brass last week that was not shot from my gun. I came across a round that was badly bulged it looked like what came out of my pistol but was actually more bulged. It was also a Tula brass case. I'm seeing a trend. I have no idea if that was a factory loaded round or a reload.
Thank you for this sensible, straightforward review of this firearm. As a Sig P320 owner, I have wondered about all the hype surrounding this issue. Although I have not had the trigger replaced, I am now less concerned about having this done.
I think you should have the recall work done on the trigger. Why not if it reduces the odds of a problem?
Nice to see you here Dr. Raynor
I've had it happen. Have pictures to confirm it. Was using Winchester whitebox NATO 124gr. It did an OOB ignition between cycling of the next round. It blew out the rear of the slide top and dented the magazine lips.
Sent it back to SIG, came back with new frame and slide in 5 days. Used the same FCU. This was an M17 commercial. Summer 2022.
Oh boy, round 2 here we go
Winchester white box is probably loaded less consistently than the average of all reloads over every caliber by skilled and unskilled reloaders. WWB is complete 💩 that's so inconsistently loaded, some shooting instructors I know won't even let people bring it to their sessions.
@@stoptrackingourdata8158 No it's not, there have been fewer QC incidents over billions of Winchester White Box rounds than any of the commercial reload companies like Freedom Munitions have had with production numbers down in the millions. And most of the Winchester issues were assembly line issues like mangled cases and inverted primers, the powder charges were rarely the issue. It's been a staple of the US ammo market for longer than I've been alive, if it were half as bad as ANY reload mill you'd know it because they'd be sued off of store shelves.
@@noturfather1106🤣🤣🤣
@@hornmonk3zitim with you. I've shot 1000's of WWB in different calibers and never had any issues. It's cheap, it's dirty, but it works.
ive got 3000+ rounds through my M18 purchased sometime last year and have absolutely loved it, hasnt malfunctioned or exploded yet haha great video as always!
I just wish you people didnt widly accept so many plastic guns
I’m old enough to remember when Glocks had a bad reputation for firing without allegedly pulling the trigger. The difference is social media wasn’t available back then. The initial problem was the transition from revolvers with heavy triggers to a light Glock trigger. That is why they made New York triggers for Glocks; to increase the trigger pull weight in high stress incidents
Glocks and light trigger are words I would NEVER have said in the same sentence. Glock triggers are heavy and awful
@@DontThinkso-kb9tcmost striker fires pistols are, i filed down my sar 9 trigger because its mushy, now its mushy but when you hit the wall its a feather
Fantastic factual explaination - thanks! Corporate character assasination by Social Media, is one of the scurges of the information age in which we live. That makes your channel all the more important.
To be clear, the inertia of the early drops weren't enough to fire the trigger, but they were enough to move it a small amount which lifted the internal striker safety. It was the jarring from that drop that moved the slide back a bit and slipped the cocked striker off the sear which then struck the primer unimpeded.
So your initial beggining of your comment was a lie exposed by the very end of your comment 😂
@@TheAnnoyingBoss Explain please, because that's exactly what happened. The trigger's takeup, which lifts the internal striker block, is short and light. Then it hits a heavier wall which rotates the sear off the striker lug for the trigger break/firing. But the trigger during those drops never moved back farther than the initial takeup. The heavier slide, however, did keep going back as the frame's tang hit the ground and it jarred the striker lug off the sear. Had that initial trigger takeup not happened the internal block would have kept the striker from hitting the primer.
So that particular drop wasn't firing the trigger, but it was prepping it enough for other things to ket the striker go forward. Kind of a perfect storm of small events, but not the way the gun was designed to fire from normal full trigger pull. THat's why the problem was solved with a lighter-mass trigger/sear/striker but also a disconnect mechanism that prevents the striker from falling if the slide is out of battery.
Scariest thing that ever happened to me. I was getting dressed and holstering my Glock G26. I guess my belt was on the wrong loop and too loose. The weight flipped my belt and holster and the Glock fell out. It landed on the back end of the grip with the barrel pointed at my face when I looked down by instinct. The force of the fall made the slide move a little, I could hear it kind of cycle, and I thought.... if that thing just went off.. I might be dead or in really bad shape.
Even if you think you're doing everything right...
While you should never have to trust your life to the drop safe feature you read about in the manual.. you'd better be sure that gun has a spotless reputation. You never know when you'll need it to work.
Damn. That is a good lesson right there.
A proper gun belt should be stiff enough to not flip. There's some really good ones out there on the market that aren't super tactical looking, Magpul makes a decent "leather" one that's internally reinforced, and Kore also makes a decent option.
I have multiple Nohma Leather belts. They are full grain heavy duty work belts. They are strong and stiff but still very comfortable, and ridged enough to not flip my belt when my G26 is holstered.
Get a proper gun belt not something from Macy’s.
I really like my 2 EDC Belt Company belts. They're stiff, but not too stiff. They velcro attach which allows for fluctuations in stomach size.
What about the video in Richland WA where the gun went off in the holster? Gun was sent to sig and they said it was a defective firing pin return spring. Perhaps there was a manufacturing issue with a batch of springs or a design problem?
The video looks real to me fwiw. I don't TH-cam will let me paste the video link in comments section but the title of the video is "My Sig P320 fired on its own in the holster and tried to shoot me! (P320 X-Five)"
Weird since they are striker fired, not having a "firing pin".
Thanks, Ian! I have been wanting an M17 or M18 here for a while much for the reasons you like them on the historical significance, but also it fits my hand well and I like the external safety. I kept hearing about this drop safety thing and started to get a bit worried about it. No one ever mentions it was fixed! I think I'll just return that to my wish list now.
I actually noticed this phenomenon in property management all the time. I always have to take very careful pictures of the work area before I start because once people start looking for problems they noticed stuff that may have been pre-existing for years and they just never paid attention to
That's not what's really going on there. They know. They're just looking for a bonus. They want the BOGO deal even when it's not offered. People are just shifty and opportunistic. Some strive to overcome these basic instincts, others do not. They're in it to win it.
I found this true working at a BMW motorcycle shop. We detailed every scratch et cetera when we checked the bikes in for service. And showed the customers our 'autopsy' diagram with all the flaws. So we wouldn't have that issue
I started "documenting" my work on people's homes when I got my first smart phone because of them saying I did something wrong, not the "handyman" before me. It seems like people that are uninformed like to blame whoever they can to get free work. I grew tired of that. I choose my customers more carefully now, but still document my work and pre existing conditions to this day.
My wife carries the Sig320. She recently heard about these issues from a "professional trainer".
I had her watch this with me.
She is good with her 320 and the standard carry ammunition.
Thanks for the great video.
"Qualified trainer"
Most of those guy probably barely passed their qualification
The problem is sig lied and said there was no problems. They had press conferences saying the accusations were false and the guns were fine. They lied.
So they lied and came out with a voluntary fix for something the said had no issue. I mean come on my guy look at how dumb that is. Also no source it never happened
thank-you. we had one round case blow out this weekend. I've been racking my mind to think what could have caused this.
I am a trifle surprised that Ian does not own a Swiss P210 or Swiss P220 and, if not those, some West German P226, 228, or 225's. All of these fit wonderfully into a Sig collection, but I think one of the strongest collector pieces I have ever seen come for sale was a consecutive serial pair of German Mk25's, which would also be a cool piece for anyone to own.
I love my West German 228. It was my duty pistol as a Fire Marshal. Even after years of everyday carry, it’s in great shape.
I grew up shooting Sigs, it was all my dad ever trusted. His P228 has stamped on its slide "Made in West Germany". Now that I'm an adult and purchasing my own firearms, I did buy a Sig P320 to kinda say "This is the future Old Man" but I'm getting ready to buy a 9mm P229 because I've come full circle and realize why he only had Sigs.
👍
This is pretty much what I've been saying since these issues started. When the drop safety issue was discovered, average TH-camrs could recreate it by putting a primed case in the gun and dropping it. Even Omaha Outdoors, a retail company, recreated it on slow motion video. It's pretty simple. Sig reused a lot of P250 parts, including the trigger shoe, allowing the trigger to self pull when dropped. They THOUGHT a forward pivoting trigger bar would prevent the need for a trigger tab safety, but the interia came from the shoe, not the bar. Case closed. Now you have people claiming the gun can randomly fire, and guess what, no explanation at all. It's magic. Somehow a finite amount of parts fail all at once. In one instance a police officer put his P320 in a gym bag wrapped in a towel, and then tried to sue Sig for it going off on its own. I have no doubt Sig has painstakingly combed through EVERY possible scenario for this gun at this point and it's probably safer than most other guns that came out in 2014.
I believe Omaha Outdoors was the first one to release a video proving the drop fire issue to the world, in 2017 :)
safer than most guns after 2014?
I'll stick to my canik
@@neempata3274 Caniks are Walther P99 clones, and that design has been around since the mid-90s.
@@JR15A2 trusty reliable design, at a lower cost. Neato.
There's a whole lot more than the trigger shoe that was changed after this issue came up...
th-cam.com/video/VmwpkJuIR00/w-d-xo.html
There's even a second sear notch just in case the sear should release without the trigger being pulled to the rear.
One thing about the 320 is how short the take-up and trigger travel is. You can inadvertently move the trigger on a Glock or Canik almost 3/8" and you haven't reached to point where the trigger will release the sear. On a 320, the take up is just a couple millimeters and you're on the wall... any movement past that and BANG! No trigger safety blade either. Quite unforgiving of poor gun handling.
On my P-320 Compact in .45 ACP, the trigger pull is closer to 6 lbs than 4 lbs... but it's a no bullsh!t, straight to the point trigger, unlike most striker-fired pistols with their long take-up and squishy trigger break.
Thanks for the video I could not agree with you more, with the exception of overloading the case on a 9mm. I have NOT used every powder on the market so I can not say that it is impossible to overload but the powders that I use fill the case full enough that it can not take another charge. 38s have plenty of room to double or even triple charge. I have two 320s that have been fixed and I have had no problems with them. GREAT VIDEO !!!
Really appreciate the context and overall info about this, it certainly put mind at ease!
Happy to hear this! Almost bought a P320 compact as a carry gun but was spooked by the rumors. Ended up going with a CZ P01 which I adore but I'm glad to know it wouldn't have jeopardized my safety
P01 my beloved
I've seen guys saying they had a major match with 3 p320s blowing up in that single match. These kabooms seem to be happening relatively frequently at matches. I shoot a fair amount of USPSA with guys that shoot 320s, and have not seen one kaboom, yet. I think the problem likely comes from using lighter springs since we are using downloaded rounds in USPSA and the guns not fully locking up, but the firing pin is still able to light the round off. This likely is not a problem with overcharges, since it is happening so frequently.
"Safe and effective" might not have been the best choice of words lol
I’m a LEO and Sig armorer for the “Classic” line. Sig had quite a good reputation before we were issued them. I owned a West German P226 in 9mm that I purchased in the late 80s. My small/medium sized department was issued the P226 in 40 smith around 10 years ago and immediately had many, many problems with the new weapons. My factory pressed in sear spring tensioner pin fell out of the frame the first week of training. We had probably half a dozen more fall out during the next year. Countless trigger bar breakages, magazines dropping without pressing the release, steel frame inserts breaking apart, internal safety lever breakages etc. The quality control was subpar to say the least and the guns had trouble holding up to 40 cal without breaking. Very disappointed in the failures of these expensive guns.
What is a "steel frame insert?" Which SIG 226 .40 part number do you refer too? Finally what was the end result between your department and the distributor or SIG who sold you the guns?
@@175jfs5 Locking insert.
I have seen a few pistols “ blow up “over the years, they were mostly shooting reloads. On one occasion I talked to a fellow that his Custom 1911 was trashed due to a bad batch of factory ammo. It’s not always reloaded or remanufactured ammo that has issues, but it seems to be a more common issue.
Pretty reasonable and even-handed discussion of an interesting controversy seems to me. Thank you, Ian, for your excellent work. Cheers!
The worst thing that happened to Sig Sauer is that it became an American Corporate entity full of greed. A number of issues missed here, the trigger bar specs are hyper-critical to the timing of the trigger/striker mechanism. If the trigger bar is produced even a hair, the gun will suffer trigger reset failures. This issue also applies to routine wear. My P320c began suffering those failures at the 175 round mark. At first, Sig CS simply said: "You need to fire it more, the issue will clear up". 😂 When I told him I was an Armorer (not certified on the P320), he stopped arguing and sent me a FEDEX RMA label. That was when I learned of the trigger bar issue. Since then, several gunsmiths and an engineer have told me the P320 FCU is a flawed design on several points and that from what they saw in a number of repairs, no two parts were exactly in spec which at the time is because Sig outsources (and still does) many parts. The quality control is abysmal compared to the original German guns which were individually inspected and fired before leaving the factory. The failures of current Sig firearms is what happens when a company outsources and batch tests it's products and they produce more guns in a month now than they did in an entire year during the German production runs. BTW, the Dead Trigger issue is rampant, even on the military M17/18's. I have several written reports of this. As far as the spontaneous discharges they are very real yet Sig continues to try to blame the operators for it much like they initially denied the drop issue. My old 1988 P226 was night and day a better product than any Sig made now (excepting those small numbers hand assembled by custom pistol smiths).
My only concern are the situations on video of cops getting out of cars or walking across a parking lot and it fires in the holster. At my agency they had it happen on camera and after armorer inspection of the pistol and review of the cameras the armorer ruled it was fired without input.
Is it possible? I really think it is. Out of the 100-150 alleged cases (as you say, out of a million) I would imagine some are definitely user-error, but best I can tell there have been some that can't be ruled out. 100 out of million? Defective part? I dunno, but something is definitely up, even if it is a ridiculously low chance.
I used to work in crash safety in the fire and emergency vehicle market. Do unionized government employees lie and blame their mistakes on their gear on a regular basis? 1000% yes.
The rear of the chamber on Glock pistols is oversized and you get the infamous Glock bulge on the cases. I learned this the hard way hand loading for a 40 S&W Glock 22. (boom) you are correct that these chambers are perfectly safe with new factory ammunition. In the early days of IPSC everyone “throated” and polished chambers in an attempt to insure reliable feeding. You saw quite a few kabooms from overused cases in those days. I still carry my P320 compact appendix. I’m a retired LEO and can testify that most cops aren’t part of the gun culture. I’ve seen unsafe weapons handling by other officers on numerous occasions. Funny how three of these incidents took place at the same PD…
The reports of 320s going off in the holsters are in the hundreds. It has been showed in videos that if the trigger is barely touched in/by the holster, without being fully pulled or close to it, and the gun is jarred in a certain direction it will fire. If you can talk yourself out of this being a problem; not sure what to tell you. I wouldn't strap one to my hip and go for a jog. Because it has been proven to me via videos that that simple activity can lead to a hole in my leg. Simple. That being said. I love sigs. My go to carry currently is a 229 legion that I recently purchased. That is a very safe gun. Has been proven and just going through the mechanisms you can see it in their functions.
Can you post a link to any of these videos please? I keep hearing about them but have yet to see one. Thank you
@@jameswatson5640 I watched them and moved on. Didn't save any. Would have to search.
The one thing I did notice that sig changed in the striker / firing pin safety that may add to their safety issues. In the p365 they stayed with and used the firing pin safety that most all striker fired and other pistols have used forever. That was a robust plunger on a spring style that is lifted up to free the striker as the trigger is pulled. Even the series 80 1911’s used this wich made the gun safer when dropped but also lead to a heavier trigger pull. So because of this most competitive shooters would remove that system and put in spacer in place of the arm that lifted the safety plunger essentially making it a series 70. That being said the 1911 still had a thumb safety and grip safety.
The other thing I think adds to the issues is the fact that they went to using stamped metal pieces to make the striker safety system wich have smaller engagement surfaces and can flex and wear more. Now add the lighter springs they were using could cause the safety to fail. Notice in the p365 with the time tested system hasn’t had the same issues.
The last thing I think adds to all the Leo and other AD’s /ND’s is the use of positive retention holsters that use mechanisms that protrude into the trigger guard. Many training places won’t allow these kinds of holsters because of AD’s & ND’s. Instead they want simple kydex & /or leather holsters that don’t have rete😢devices that protrude into the trigger guard.
This being said I love my sigs and my EDC is the sig p365xl wich I think is the best carry gun made to date. But because of the issues my sig p320 xcarry custom is relegated to my bump in the night , night stand weapon.
A simple fix would have been for sig to have designed in a grip safety into the 320 and stayed with the old tried and true striker safety that most other manufacturers have used for a long time. I think they just rushed things to get the government contracts. Also notice on the military design they kept the manual thumb safety
Thank you so much for such a well informed and detailed explanation of this issue. I'm always impressed at how you discuss how certain events COULD happen and how the design of the weapon works to minimize the likelihood of such a thing happening. Accidents can happen, some people will always find a way to mess things up no matter how good the design, and some will always try to push the blame on someone other than themselves. I always enjoy your videos and feel like I learn something every time I watch them. Keep up the great work!
A blue falcon being reasonable and helpful?
*What game are you playing here?!*
@@hateferlife LOL. Not a real BF, or at least try not to be. Long story, but I took the moniker as kind of a joke and it stuck.
I mean, there’s a reason every other striker fire pistol uses a trigger system that has a safety built into the trigger itself
I wouldn't have bought the pistol if it had a trigger safety
If the 320 had a dingus safety on the trigger to begin with it would have (perhaps) prevented the discovery of the original drop safe issue. Is that a good thing or a bad thing ? Well, the gun is safer now so a net-positive could be argued. Other than that the dingus safety really only helps to prevent ND's caused by snagging the sides of the trigger, Glocks and Sigs will fire when the trigger is pulled whether it was meant to be pulled or not. I own and love both but admittedly I am more careful with my 320's.
@@growlikethewind5788the dingus prevents inertia from pulling the trigger when dropped
@@camerongoyette4778 So does making the trigger lighter. Which Sig did as part of the upgrade and now that's not a problem so the dingus is not necessary to prevent this issue. (Unless maybe if you fire your 320 out of a rail gun or get Thor to throw it against a wall which then even the dingus would have its own inertia)
@@growlikethewind5788 No, lightening the trigger spur makes an inertial trigger pull less likely, a trigger safety makes it mechanically impossible. You would have to literally break the safety to defeat it.
Some "Factory" ammo has begun using the three piece cases. The base is aluminum, an o ring gasket and the upper body being the traditional brass. They are assembled and internally crimped. This gives tremendous strength at the case head and that unsupported chamber area as in the P320. The G9 extreme penetrator with the copper bullet and x type screw driver tip has such a case. Granted, it is a higher than normal pressure cartridge, but the case heads are not affected. This or similar would be a great match in the P320.
In my experience, I personally knew and worked with an armorer that had a negligent discharge with his Sig M18 (P320). He was at the clearing barrel, confirmed with the barrel attendant that it was safe and clear. Then he inserted the magazine and sent the slide forward. At this time the gun discharged. Before he put it on fire and with his finger away from the trigger. Our investigators worked with a representative of the Sig company to determine the cause of the discharge. They concluded that the firing pin has a tendency to get stuck in its forward position. Meaning while the slide is locked to the rear, you can see the tip of the firing pin sticking out. So apparently the firing pin was sticking out when this guy sent the slide forward with the magazine in, and that was enough to strike the primer. Upon learning this, we inspected the top round of all issued magazines and discovered a shocking piece of evidence. A lot of the top rounds of those magazines had primer strikes, and they thankfully never discharged. The only changes we saw after that was that we had to check the guns were safe, clear and the firing pin wasn't stuck. They were never recalled, traded in or replaced as far as I'm aware. Now that is just one of the many reasons why I'll never use a Sig P320, M17 or M18, let alone buy one.
Very interesting
And how convenient we switch to a pistol that’s plagued with problems leading up to a world war. Man all the dominoes are just falling into place to make sure America is fucked
Can you elaborate? Was the rounds with the primer strikes the ones that were chambered at the start of a shift, then ejected and replaced into the mag at the end of the day or something?
Ive heard this exact story a dozen times from a dozen different people I call bs
@@straight6fords580 luckily for you there’s this amazing thing called TH-cam where you can look up VIDEOS of them doing this. Stop making straw man arguments, there’s COUNTLESS videos of this thing happening inside the holster. Stop lying
A number of these cases seem to come down to the officers putting the pistols in places where the triggers get snagged. At the end of the day that’s negligence. At the same time, I wonder if having a trigger safety built into the face of the trigger like the majority of striker fired, safe-action type pistols seem to have may have stopped some of these users from essentially shooting themselves. Back when the P320 was first released there was even marketing material showing a tabbed trigger as a department option, but I don’t think I ever saw SIG produce that.
As an add on, it probably would also have mitigated the pistol discharging when dropped.
Also never seen it happen to one with an external safety
What about the ones in Milwaukee? Where the guns were in holsters
@@smyers820gm if the holsters are worn or not specifically built for that pistol I could see them potentially discharging the pistol (I think that happened in the case of the Canadian special forces). I admittedly don’t know the specific details of all cases.
I’m not arguing a tabbed trigger solves all issues, or even the majority of them, just that it may have helped.
@@Murphy82nd to be perfectly honest I kinda came to the same conclusion. I was thinking, it’s not a perfect fit so maybe somehow it causes friction to the trigger. Just enough to break and fire 🤷♂️
I shot a 320 as a rental, fell in love, bought 1, got the SIG upgrade after the drop issue came up, put in a flat trigger, have carried it for work for several years now and will never carry another pistol. It is one of two pistols I have owned that has eaten absolutely everything I put through it. The other being an SA XD45. Used Glock, Smith, XDs but the P320 is my keeper.
Yep, have loved mine too from first shot. I alternate carrying my 320 with my LWC. I also practice with both because of the obvious fact the 1911 has a manual safety. Both guns deserve my love.
Ian you are completely right.... I am remembering HS-2000 had similar reported "problems" here in Croatia... Almost all cases happened to police officers.. Later most of cases were proofed as mishandling weapon and not due to malfunction...
The description of the drop testing reminds me of the series 70 1911 testing that led to the series 80 and Swartz firing pin safeties. The series 70 (mechanically simpler) was safe, but it was held in a jig that maintained a specific and unlikely angle (based on center of gravity) and dropped from increasing, unrealistic heights onto hardened concrete......until it broke and allowed the hammer to fall. At that point, it was 'unsafe' and required "fixing". Thanks for your efforts to educate the internet.
5:09
Based on the timeline established from all of this, SIG already knew. This issue had been seen in US military testing and that’s how SIG essentially already had the parts ready for the fix.
Shut up. You ain't Sig
Milwaukee Police Department just got rid of their SIG 320s because of the gun "unintentionally discharging". The purse scenario you mentioned was a Milwaukee Police Detective.
They used seized drug money switched to GLOCK 45 (9mm) for the low low price of $450,000.
Nothing against Sig, but the very specific drop test wasn't the only way to recreate the issue. Even a slight tap on the rear of the slide (in battery) with a hammer would cause it to fire.
My issue with SIG is how they denied the issue at first. Then when enough people were injured or killed, they half-assed a fix that clearly did not fix the issue. Then they skirted a recall to protect their image, not the well-being of their consumers.
Just bad overall.
Can you supply a link to that video? The one I saw required repeated and very energetic pounding with the hammer.
Well, now they've got surveillance and body cam video of an officer dealing with someone with a holstered P320 which then goes off in the holster without any manipulation of any kind... I'd say there's a problem.
This is really good info on what was changed in the P-320:
th-cam.com/video/VmwpkJuIR00/w-d-xo.html
A contributor is the short take-up and short overall trigger travel of the 320. Most striker-fired pistols have a long take up and the trigger breaks all the way at the rear of the trigger guard, where the 320 has a very short take up and the trigger is rather far forward in the trigger guard when it breaks (which I like). This, and the lack of a trigger safety blade like most striker-fired pistols have, make the 320 a lot less forgiving of trigger movement. If you're gonna carry a 320 (I EDC the Compact 320 in .45 ACP) you need a proper holster, you need to take great care when reholstering, and you need good trigger finger discipline.
The drop issue that was a significant concern a few years ago is well documented. Even SIG begrudgingly admitted the design was "lacking". The issue that I see with the design comes from quality control. Due to the "interchangeable" feature, the tolerances between the mating parts must be exact and repeatable across all possible permutations. The issue is there is no realistic manner to have the degree of QC; resulting in absolute reliability across all factors or permutations of the system. I will point out that the hammer fired predecessor (P250) did NOT have the issues being reported here.
I've had a Xcarry for a few years now, already upgraded from the factory. I agree with you about the trigger. My thoughts are they tried to give a striker fired pistol an almost single action trigger. The internal distances of travel are very short in comparison to my other strikers.
@@chrissmith-rv5ro That was what I liked about it. The trigger is pretty close (not quite) to the Apex package in my M&P 2.0 Compact.
If you take the 320 when the striker isn't re-set and pull the trigger through its travel, it stops at about where the 'wall' would be on most striker-fired pistols, would you agree?
@@HalfCrazy520 Absolutely agree. I like the trigger, definitely one of my best. My Walther PDP feels more crisp to me, but just as short travel, and even shorter reset. But with my Xcarry, without thought no low left hits.
@@chrissmith-rv5ro In my opinion, it attempts to do just that but completely ignores the downsides of that. The foremost is that it reduces the mechanical resistances to malfunctions. Second, it makes the possibility of human induced error higher. That said, if you want single-action there are plenty of proven designs that accomplish that exceptionally well: derived from 1911s, CZs, etc.
The P320 in many respects is taking the P250 and making it a striker fired gun. The downside of that is that you do in fact lose some of the versatility in the design. You also lose some of the inherent advantages of a DA/SA hammer fired system.
Personally, I do not think that the P320 is a good duty gun. I think that it was rushed and the design was half-baked at best. In terms of functionality and reliability, my 1911 does way better. As much as they are ugly guns, Glock did a better job designing & testing then did SIG (overall).
You may or may not see this comment Ian but I just have to say I’ve always been an enthusiast for firearms but dude I’ve learned so much more from your videos that from all the people I’ve run into over the years you explain things to the point that you can visual it all happening in your head. You’re awesome man love your channel to the fullest anytime I want to learn something historical or modern just simply anything about firearms I can almost guarantee I can learn from you. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with the world id shake your hand if I could 😁👍
I had one of these guns (before that tragic boating accident) and thanks to this video I checked and my gun has been upgraded. Thanks for posting this video.
There's a video going around now where a suspect kicks a police officer's holster and the Sig goes off. I'm a Sig fan and have a few (all metal ones), they've never been a problem, but this might be with their striker guns. As to reloading - I do a lot, there's only a couple cases that I can think of that you could double load and not notice it (45 colt, 45-70 - old black powder cartridges that use quite a bit less modern powder than you would have with BP)...nearly every modern cartridge, the powder goes ~2/3ds of the way up - if you double loaded it, you would have the excess spilling over your workspace.
I'll admit, the chamber support of the P320 does concern me since I sometimes reload (I haven't shot any reloads through mine). But otherwise, I very much enjoy my P320s. It's fascinating that the dwell time is 3x longer than M&Ps, and it probably explains why my .45 and 9mm both feel very soft-shooting relative to other pistols. I also had apprehension with putting them in my carry rotation due to the reports of them going off by themselves, but after looking at the design and fitment of parts, I feel perfectly comfortable carrying them. I think there's still a lot of folklore and hyperbole surrounding the gun.
it does shoot really soft. i found that interesting as well
As to the chamber support and reloading, Glocks are notorious for bulging cases just above the extractor groove.
I forget who makes it, but a company makes a sizing die they call a GlockRx that pushes a case all the way through the die. Friend of mine that is a competitive shooter uses one on all his range recovered brass.
I'm no expert, however I do own a Sig Sauer p320 xcompact. Mine is one of the updated versions so it's apparently "Drop Safe" now. However I really don't want to test this theory.
My issue with Sig goes into the mental side of the equation. I've always been a more "traditional" gun guy than a plastic high capacity type. In short I prefer my Mil spec 1911 over my Sig. But in a time where having a CCW is becoming extremely critical for your own safety and protection of your family, I opted to get the Sig as my CCW. IWB Appendix.
After all of these claims of firing without pulling the trigger, people getting shot on accident, drop issues etc. It made me very nervous about carrying my Sig. Something I never felt when carrying the older hammer guns I have.
That nervousness grew into a level of paranoid fear. And now my Sig sits completely untouched and I desperately want to sell it and never see it again.
If you're nervous about your weapon, something bad IS going to happen. Simply because of negligence. My Sig which was originally supposed to protect my life has now made me concerned that it will take my life. That is a risk I am completely unwilling to take.
In my opinion I'll stick with hammer fired guns. Whether that be something tried and true like the 1911 or something newer like the Stacatto. But I'm staying away from striker fired guns now.
Doubt is a powerful cancerous growth. You start doubting something and it can grow into fear and resentment. And I hate to say it, but I hate my Sig and I don't want anything to do with it anymore. Just in case something were to happen, I can't risk my family or my life for prides sake.
Just my two cents on a personal level.
This is why during the phase of my life where I did carry, I carried a CZ75 Compact. But these days I just don't carry at all, for my own reasons
Thank you for the great video Ian. I too have an M17 and have not had any issues with it .
Interesting video
Another way to have problems that sort of look like a out of battery discharge
Is to have a person running HOT reloads
I used to shoot in matches where people were reloading the 9mm to +P+ or IMO even Hotter
They then could reach Major power , but have all the extra rounds a extended Glock mag could hold
I saw several extractors leave Glocks
Mix HOT reloads and brass that has been reloaded a bunch of times and BOOM
Or a slight glitch reloading and 1 reload gets a touch to much powder
On the army side, we specifically used a trigger finger paddle/button type release on our Kydex M9 holsters just to prevent trigger fingers from going into the trigger guard while still partially holstered.
The serpa? Oh no… there’s a pretty bad failure case where you press on the button but have already started to draw where it locks up, you curl your finger to press down harder on it, and when it breaks free your finger is in the trigger guard ready to go.
No, just no. Friends don’t let friends carry Serpa
@@timunderbakke8756 Not Serpa.
I used Serpas for years. If you use them properly, they're fine.
Training issue, not a gear issue.
My mistake. I took a look at a few of our holsters. Blackhawk SERPAS. I cannot imagine a situation as you describe, and after talking with my former cadre, none of us have ever encountered that in any of our class cycles.
Ian’s analogy with the train crash is how I’ve viewed the recent Sig news. It also seems like the majority of pics I’ve seen were of guns used in competition. Besides well-used brass, I wonder how many people have installed “improved” aftermarket parts.
I purchased 2 M17s when they first became available and a P320. The P320 Serial # was listed the Sig web site as needing to be upgraded. Since the upgrade all 3 pistols work flawlessly.
Ricky from IBM
PS sure would like to get a hold of that Sig book, but can’t seem to find them in stock anywhere