Well, technically some other guy's memories would have known how not get his cavalry (not calvary) killed in battle, Mat is just the otherwise empty vessel that regurgitates the information. But the sick burn against the strategists of the Long Night battle is still quite apt. Dany and Aegon really need a solid general at their side, neither of them is really up to the task, and Grey Worm doesn't seem to want to be Big Picture Guy.
@@Siansonea As far as GOT, they had experienced characters there to plan a battle as well as the intelligence about their enemy and how to defeat them. The issue is the writing and execution of the tv show. They sped it up too much and failed to fit in what should have been in the season. Unless this episode is one giant trick, which I doubt, because there are only 3 episodes left, the writers of the show did a bad job. They did not write true to the characters, the characters' knowledge and skill set, and it shows in all three episodes of this season, but particularly the battle of episode 3.
I don't think the theory holds up. It makes a number of unwarranted assumptions, for one thing, and I think there is direct evidence against at least one aspect of it. Rand lives through several incarnations of his life when using the portal stone in TGH, and in many of them, he never proclaims himself the Dragon. So the argument that the Dragon will always try to become the Dragon is clearly not correct. Also, Artur Hawkwing specifically calls him "Lews Therin" at Falme. That implies to me that Lews Therin was Rand's last incarnation, and that Artur Hawkwing was the last incarnation of that particular soul, as well, since that's how he appeared, and we know they take the form of their last incarnation in _Tel'aran'rhiod_ normally.
That second statement is incorrect. It implies only that Lews Therin was both his and his master's last opponent. Moridin when playing a AoL era game, thinks that the Fisher (blind man holding his side) is a representation of one of the past Dragons, yet does not recognize who it is suposed to be despite having claimed to know all the faces and names of the Dragon. It is nothing more than bluff and posture. Even the Dark One can be ignorant, and why would Ishmael (who would know the current status of the seals on the Dark One's prision) think the Dragon had been reborn (early), when he knows the time of confrontation was not at hand. Assuming that it also was not more bluff, it would give credence to his claim that the Dragon as before been used as the DO's champion as a pawn (unknowing or otherwise) to unleash evil. If that is the case, the Dragon would be reborn again later to "undo the ancient wrong". The only counter to this point is that the DO never gives up a tool, so it would only be plausible if the Dragon supported him unknowingly. Your first point talks about the Dragon "always" trying to declare himself. I agree that this is not so, however it is likely that the Pattern would spin out a foil to the Dragon in case he does proclaim himself at the wrong time. Someone who would come before his rise of power so would be outside his influence and able to stand with their own convictions against him rather than those inherited (for or against) by the people who raised him/her. Even Brigitte said that sometimes she and Gaidal at times had lived long lives and died of age not onowing of their greater purpose. That suggests that during that time, perhaps they were meant to be the Dragon's foil should he proclaim himself, but he never did so they did not have to fulfill that role.
@@joshuafriday9748 I'm not sure what Ishamael has to do with my point about Artur Hawkwing? Artur Hawkwing is one of the Heroes of the Horn, and he appears specifically as that incarnation, just as he would in the World of Dreams. If the Dragon had been reborn as Guaire Amalasan, why would *Artur Hawkwing* -- the man who _defeated_ Amalasan -- not have called him by that moniker, rather than Lews Therin? There's really nothing to support the theory other than guesswork, and in my opinion, this is evidence against it.
@@lDanielHolm That even the most knowledgeable characters are not omniscient. Even assuming Hawkwing did know, calling Rand by the name of a known false dragon would have been counterproductive not only to the story but to its world. Rand needed to come to grips with being the Dragon as it was the proper time and place where as it was not in the time of Guaire.
@@joshuafriday9748 One of the only pieces of evidence for the theory in the first place is Artur Hawkwing stating he has fought against the Dragon. In order for that to be relevant, he would *have* to know. As for the rest, Artur Hawkwing does not strike me as the manipulative type, especially consideirng his conflict with Aes Sedai.
@@lDanielHolm Just because he knows, does not mean he knows all. And would it be manipulating to tell a person who they are? Calling him Guaire would have induced more internal conflict in Rand, where as calling him Lews Therin makes it explicitly clear that he is the Dragon Reborn. And seeing as how Hawkwing is bound not only to the Horn and to the Wheel, but to the Light itself (as are all heroes, otherwise they could be forced to fight for the shadow, which the heroes have disavowed as a possibility), why would he say or do anything to jepordize the mission of the Dragon Reborn, and likewise how would he have fought against the Dragon Reincarnation line if he was not occasionally spun out for that exact purpose?
Dope series man! I have never been exposed to WOT fan theory’s but I am a huge WOT fan so I am very excited. :) thank you for putting this together, perfect for my lunch break!
A prequel about Arthur Hawkwing from rise to fall with Amalasan as an antagonist before Ishamael would be really good (if done right, not even the main story got that), kind of like GoT and HotD, seeing other nations and a deffirent time period.
I just want to say thank you so much! You are extremely well informed and studied in wheel of time. There's definitely great demand for this and I'm happy to see how your subscriber numbers are skyrocketing. Also, thanks for the more regular releases lately, I think everyone will watch however many videos you release.
I cant remember where i read this (somwhere in the wiki), but i think it is stated that the soul of the dragon is only spun out once every age. I could be completly wrong tho. Since the souls of the wheel of time are spun out when they are needed, and we have no idea how many times the wheel has turned at this point i dont think its unlikely to say that they might have fought many times in other ages. Infinit time lines my guy!
I think this one is true - it does all fit if at fist seem unlikely, but it is the only thing that makes sense for Hawkwing's comment about fighting the dragon - there is no other indication of the dragon ever fighting Hawkwing I can think of. However it's so buried and subtle I am amazed fans deduced this - I wonder if this was Jordan's intent and cannon, or if it was a happy coincidence that the event fit, and hawkwing's comment was a loose end that never got finished kind of like what lesson Cadsuane taught the Ashaman?
to me this is cannon more than theory, why? simply because Robert Jordan didn't write useless characters, every single character is there for a reason, some more than others, and, in following a fantasy trope created by Tolkien with Tom Bombadill, not everything has to be explicit, this connection makes sense, especially when your Main Character is a cyclical phenomenon, and it is supposed to have already appeared in our times; in the books, we see the many references to Jesus, Tyr, and many other "deity" figures from our global cultures, so there must be others, lost to us readers in the turnings of the wheel. Wouldn't it be just wonderful, to know that the wheel would spun the dragon, just to have a tranquil life every now and then? so that that tortured soul can experience some peace every so often? We as readers know that the wheel does this for others (heroes of the horn), from the experiences told by Birgitte., that sometimes the wheel would just spun her out to have a regular life, to be happy with Gaidal.
Ian Gwaltney Nick Masters and the Reflections Of Sound. They do the whole soundtrack from the books, it’s incredible. The one in this video is from Jak o’ the Shadows though in other videos he uses an excerpt from Tinker in the Kitchen. I really hope they use Nick Masters’ versions for the show because they are perfectly fitting for the books.
Bonus points for the Egon clip. Don't cross the streams! Every time I read that part, that is exactly what I think of haha. Anyway I love this new series idea. I honestly don't know many fan theories. This one is pretty interesting and also pretty plausible. I mean, your oppositional points haven't convinced me to believe otherwise, anyway.
Third presence is Rand's mind is definitely Ish/Moridin. The counter argument isn't very compelling. Ish & Lews are pretty intimately familiar with each other and Lew Therin has nearly as many depressive episodes as he has manic outbursts. He isn't always angry/violent/paranoid when thoughts of the various forsaken come up. It's not unreasonable for him to recognize the soul inside of Moridin (Ishmael) and to regret that they cause so much anguish in each spinning of the wheel... especially if he's deep in the throws of a depressive episode. There is also the fact that Rand recognizes the face in a moment of clarity in Knife of Dreams as the face of the man who helped him fight Sammael in Shadar Logoth. Also in Knife of Dreams, there is a passage where Rand channels and the face appears and looks furious and near to being sick. Rand expresses that the face is aware of him in that moment. In the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand gets the mental link sickness without channeling, likely because Moridin channelled Saidin. I think this is pretty strong evidence that a link exists after the balefire collision, and I believe the link also is what drives Moridin into using the True Power exclusively so that he both avoids the link sickness, and keeps Rand from getting any insight through the link. I think Ishmael and Lew Therin are obviously linked by the wheel and the only reason he says us three instead of us two is because Rand hasn't had his Jesus/Buddha moment yet where they stop being two distinct and separate entities in his mind. I'd posit that the Lew Therin half of Rand's mind has some sort of subconscious understanding that he and Rand are one, but since Rand hasn't accepted it yet, he's basically forced to acknowledge Rand's distinct personality even if they are the same soul, thus he says "We three."
Cool video💯💯💯 Keep up the great work. There're tons of people who know the books far better than I do, and I could easily be off base here. But I think the theory seems plausible. Ishamael and the Dragon were, if I remember right, also linked in the pattern. He told Rand that quite a few times - and given Ishamel's erudition from the Age of Legends and his time spent around the Dark One, he was arguably the foremost authority on the subject. And Ishamael was not trapped the way the other Forsaken were. He reemerged a couple of times - e.g., the Trolloc War. What if the pattern spun out the Dragon prematurely, but to deal with the realistic threat presented by the Dragon's counterpart? It seems plausible that any brief appearance of the Dragon's principal adversary could prompt the pattern to spin out the Dragon - and then to course-correct following the realization that even a time of great upheaval was not the right time for the prophecies to be fulfilled.
He is not likely the dragon, just a false dragon (unintentionally). If and when the dragon was spit out in other, unnecessary, times, I think he likely lived a quiet life. Its said that those tied to the wheel can sometimes be spit out to live normal, uneventful lives. This is just my opinion, likely it's filled with flaws.
I feel like, if this is true, and the Dragon was indeed spun out as Guaire Amalasan, then it wasn't to be the Dragon so much as to be Hawkwing's adversary, and thus open the way for Hawkwing's conquests (with a large area of land de-stabilized). Thus, the Dragon being reborn at that time aided the last battle, in a very indirect way. But if the Chosen hadn't interfered with the Seanchan then they wouldn't have come over. Wait did I say Chosen? I totally meant Forsaken. Yup. Totally.
I am not quite sure about this, but I'd say no. The prophecy of the Karaethon Cycle stated long before Amalasan was born: "On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man. He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood". Amalasan was not born on the slopes of Dragonmount, nor was he a son of a maiden. Therefore, he was clearly not the Dragon. Now, the question is why would the Pattern spun out the soul of Lews Therin to be incarnated in a wrong person and in a wrong time? I don't think it makes sense. With regard to Lews Therin referring to the third person in Rand's head, it could be Moridin. From the moment his balefire crossed with Moridin's, Rand formed certain connection with him and his perception of Moridin was not the same as had been his perception of Ishamael. Although they were adversaries, Rand didn't hate him and was not afraid of him. The same event could have had effect to Lews Therin in the same way, so when he spoke of Moridin in Rand's head, he was able to do it without expressing outright hatred.
That prophesy was about he who would stand before the storm. Guaire could still have been a reincarnation, but not the chosen one. "Only the chosen one can do what must be done if he wills it". That implies to me, not only a specific soul, but a specific reincarnation of that same soul. I thinknit was Graendal that mused that she has never heard of a soul spun out for one exact purpose. Assuming her thought was correct, that would imply that the Dragon had been reborn at other times for other purposes, if not his Grand Purpose.
So a related question I always had was why during the time of the last battle were all the heros of the horn not reborn and in their prime instead of being summonable by the horn. Wouldn't Mat and Artur Hawkwing make a more formidible battle leadership team than Mat alone with Hawkwing summoned by the horn?
Ian Gwaltney maybe the wheel didn’t want all those hero’s getting in the way of the 3 taveren.. ya know like I don’t think it would of gone smooth to have Hawkwing and Rand spun out at the same time would of made Rand’s job ALOT harder to have to fend off hawking conquering at the same time he is
Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 54 "The Sending" There is a reading from some books outlining the laws regarding male channellers with some discussion of previous false dragons. Loial tells stories he has heard from older Ogier which describes some of it. It's the chapter leading into the battle of Dumai's Wells. Winter's Heart, Chapter 24 "Among the Counsels". Verin speaks of how Amalason conquered Far Madding and forced Hawkwing to retreat. IIRC, she even speculates that Amalason may have been a ta'varen, because all accounts of the battle suggest that he should have lost. Finally, the companion book The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time gives a fairly detailed account of the War of the Second Dragon.
How about a random character from RJ's discarded notes, which was never developed by the author, but brought out by BS with no sensible reason? BS seems to be doing that in his books all the time.
one problem. someshta (the green man) mentions that the aiel are the people of the dragon in the first book, and he probably knew that BEFORE guaire. meaning that there was already a people of the dragon, and as moiraine also points out in the first book, you can name things anything, that doesn't mean that is what they are. no aiel, no people of the dragon. i won't argue whether he is or isn't the same thread as lews therin, there are arguments to be made that a single thread might arrive more than once in a single age, birgitte is a good example, she apparently lived more than one third age life not counting being ripped out of the tel'aran'rhiod, but the circumstances were definitely not in place for him to be "the dragon reborn" even if he was somehow the same thread, which i doubt.
To me, it seems like the Wheel does not want the Bore (and the Dark One) to be inside the Pattern. As such, having various Ta'veren spun into the Pattern to try and repair the damage makes a certain kind of sense. Also, the damage caused by the Dark One (in a variety of ways) might be why the Wheel had so many failed, if not truly false, Dragons. To that end, the Guaire Amalasan theory you speak of here could make a lot of sense. And as the Wheel turned, more Dragons were born until we finally got Rand al'Thor.
Rereading and on LoC so forgive me if memory is a little shaky, but after capture: doesn’t Rand get the knowledge of how to wear through the shield knots through LTT memories? And then shield and kill a couple of Aes Sedai from shock, imagine this scene played out exactly alike with Amalasan?
I really like your videos; they're quite great and this one is no exception, but I gotta say something - You mean cavalry [ kav-uhl-ree ], not Calvary [kal-vuh-ree], which has more to do with the crucifixion of Jesus, than horses in battles. You're not the only person to make this mistake, it's *fairly* common, but it rubs me the wrong way just enough to correct someone. :) Keep up the great works you're doing! My crusade continues; to find others who get this word wrong.....AWAY!!
I’ve always thought the 3rd person alluded to was Moridin, and still do. Hawkwing’s reference to fighting against as much as for refers to the potential for the horn to be blown by either side in my opinion, and nothing to do with his exploits while living. I’m more inclined to believe that Ishamael was pulling some of Guaire’s strings as well as Hawkwing’s and the Tower’s. Ishamael does drop Guaire’s name along with Darksbane, Yurian, Davian and Logain as puppets of the tower to deceive Rand after all. I’d think Ishamael would speak of Guaire differently if he was more than a false dragon. The symmetry of Almoth Plain and Falme is interesting though...
I think the whole theory is very likely correct except for that last little bit about the voices given the Dark One when discussing with Rand refers to him sometimes being his champion sometimes not, sometime others are the Champion implying very much what Hawkwing suggests while clearly pinning Elan as the third. The lore behind Elan/Moridin/Ishamel focused on his ongoing conflict with Lews Therin and his supposed fall to the Dark One but there are parts that suggest it's not so much a failing but an inevitability which is reinforced by some of the forsaken or the Dark One when they talk about his past and how he became fully aware of himself being spun out time and time again as a sort of foil to the Dragon. I also recall at one point he even says to Rand they have done this over and over again throughout time and then I think about how in his most recent life before he joins the Dark One (this time) he was a Philosopher who had very interesting and controversial views on the Wheel itself and as I remember it was stated pretty directly that he joins the Dark one on the promise he will be removed from existence entirely. I don't have the actual citation on hand and it's been a few years since my last re-read but I remember most of this pretty clearly as well as there being several comments by the other forsaken and the Dark One about how he just doesn't want to exist anymore and if the Dark One gets free he was promised it would all be over.
I think what's lews ment when he said us three was the holder of his soul from the first age( nakomi) I think that nakomi is the original champion of the light from the third age and she won the battle so she was blessed with pattern changing abilities like rand and giving pretty much the ability to observe and enjoy life forever Lews lost so he was killed and his mind attached to rand which could explain that the dragon soul even tho attached the the wheel doesnt spend thousands of years waiting for resurrection in the dream world like the rest Because if it did then theoretically the forsaken could hunt down the dragon before he is reborn and bale fire him in the dream world
I think it's more likely he was manipulated by Ishamael. The second Dragon led to hawkwing, which led to the Seanchan, the near destruction of the White Tower as a trusted and Influential unifying force, and the War of 100 Years.
Yeah sure Guaire was Lews Therin soul reborn. But we can not call him the Dragon. I see it as one of the rebirths that strengthens the soul that WILL be the Dragon. The author(s) stresses rebirth throughout the series. Guaire, Raolin, and Yurian SHOULD be seen as Lews Therin soul reborn but not the Dragon Reborn. Throughout the third age some False Dragons are simply person in the wrong time. I gotta hit on your 2nd point Lews Therin is definitely talking about Moridin. It would be completely out of character and tone for Lews to randomly mention some third failed incarnation of him self. At that point in the series Rands main woe was the voice in his head and sickness with channelling. Lews saying the third is to bring back the reader attention to the crossing of balefire, which had not been mentioned in at least an book. It is great foreshadowing for Moridin, who is not even introduced fully for another book or 2 after the comment. But for it too be foreshadowing of a random 3rd incarnation is a stretch for a society that believes in reincarnation.
Would have loved the white board comment more if he picked the correct word. Calvary was the location of the Crucifixion, while cavalry is a horse mounted military force
I never came across this theory. I like it. Like Arture says, the Pattern does things for its own reasons. Even Birgitte was able to be spun out and live the occasional long happy live with Caine without doing anything momentous.
It makes sense, as the Dragon reborn is the strongest Taveren the pattern spins out. Without his presence, the pattern would never have spun out hawkwing, and it sounds as if they are both closely tied together in the pattern, taking into account what hawkwing says to Rand.
Well here is an idea perhaps the reason why Guaire Amalasan was born was because with so many souls being ended with Balefire in the previous age perhaps the pattern just had to start adding other souls back in to compensate the lack of other souls.
I really like your videos, I juat am a bit disturbed that you call yourself Nae'Blis. I guess I'm getting old. When I was young, everyone wanted to be the good guy. Now The forsaken, Sith, etc. are what everyone thinks is cool.
What is up with the term "calvary" ? I have never heard it before, but here it is written on the board and you clearly say it like that in the video. Just wondering if I am missing something ;)
Calvary was the hill that Jesus was crucified on, and became a common term for a sanctuary on a hill in Christian terminology. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_(sanctuary)
I think this is extremely likely for several reasons. The Dragon is a focal point used to correct the path of the pattern, the Dragon ALWAYS has a purpose, but only occasionally the purpose of defeating the Dark One. Guaire's defeat and humiliation could have surfaced in Rand as his reluctance to proclaim himself, and the loss of Guaire's friends and comrades why Rand is so hesitant to lead. Guire's voice is not heard, but it appears that it is his emotional memories that influences Rand's behavior. There is another theory that the Dragon Scarbard sword is actually Justice, as Rand recognized it from his own memories and for several reasons made him think of Falme. But if the sword really is Justice, why is it painted with Dragons? I think it is because the sword originally belonged to Guaire, and was claimed as a trophy by Hawkwing and used as a symbol of his own might, renaming the sword as a testimony that justice had prevailed. That gives dual meaning to Rand's statement that it had belonged tona "kindred spirit". That could mean Hawking, as they were both young conquers of the world; that he puzzled out the true owner of the sword due to his study of history, including how it came into possession of Hawkwing, or both.
I have an alternate 'third dragon' theory. At the end of each age, a dragon is born. They end one age and create the next. Lews Therin ended the Age of Legends and started the 3rd age by unwittingly unleashing the Breaking. Rand ended the Third Age and started the Fourth. Who was the third Dragon? The man who ended the FIRST age and created the Second. Perhaps the 'first dragon' is who discovered the One Power and thus ended the current age (our present day world that is alluded to being the age before the Age of Legends), and thus ushered in the second. Lews Therin would have known this first Dragon in much the same way Rand knew Kinslayer. Presumably a 4th Dragon would end the 4th age and begin the 5th, and that Dragon might have Rand rattling around in HIS head... saying things like 'not you, not me, not the other two...' and so on and so forth until the 7th age when that soul is retired and a new soul serves at the end of each age, starting the cycle anew... This is why destroying or subverting the Dragon is so important to the Dark One's desire to break the Wheel. If you could truly destroy the Dragon's soul, no new ages, no more turning of the Wheel... the cycle would be broken and time would become truly linear. This makes The Dragon, in each Age, the personification and actual embodiment of The Great Serpent... serpent... Dragon... one and the same, eating it's own tail by destroying one Age and creating another
voodoochild1975az yeah I like it except the only reason Rand heard Lews therin is because of the madness of the taint in other ages I don’t think they would hear each other’s voices
Oh hell! I remember this post on theoryland.. Titled something like (Authur hawkwing: the dragonslayer) good times there from LoC and on.. I do believe this theory myself. Could you do a episode on the theory that the bore is actually in the world of dreams? That one got epic if you were willing to read every comment even though the OP was long.. Or that the ways were part of the world of dreams.. I think the OP was something like "exploring the world of dreams" or something...
Great theory because at this time the lands were so divided that they would be wiped out if the forces of the dark chose that time to conquer. It was not the dragon's time but a common foe like a 'false' dragon unites nations.
What gets me is how everyone was so stunned that 3 ta’veren were in one village. What if all three are reborn like Brigitte and Gaidal? Mat has all those memories. He doesn’t mention being Artur, but he’s a powerful ta’veren. Where’s the iteration of Perrin? Are there always 3: a Dragon, a warrior, and a wolf?
Everyone is always reborn. Hawkwing calls Mat the Gambler in AMoL. The pattern has spun him and Rand and everyone out time and time again. Some things are constant, some things change.
I'd like to humbly point out that the word you are looking for to describe mounted soldiers is CAVALRY both on your whiteboard and when you say it. Calvary is actually something else entirely.
Not sure about the theory. I think it's backwards. The Pattern didn't need the Dragon. However, it did need Hawkwing. There would be no Andor without the fall of Hawkwing's army. Further, without Bonwhin's betrayal, Manatherin would have still been a country and the history of the tower would have changed.
Does this mean that whenever a channeler is reborn into the wheel, they will always be channelers? If it is only the dragon, then he is bound to the wheel like the others, such as Gaidal, Artur and Birgitte. Does this also mean that for 3000+ years, an insane Lews Therin wandered the World of Dreams? Seems unlikely given the damage that would've wrought. As for Arturs comment about fighting against eachother, given he came straight from Tel'aran'rhoid to answer the horns call, he would very likely retain the knowledge of hundreds (if not more) turnings of the wheel; Ishamael has also intimated he and and the dragon were as often allies as they were rivals. Also, given Lews Therin's and Rands Ta'veren power, if Amalasan was the dragon reborn at the wrong time, chances are he would be a more powerful ta'veren than Hawkwing. There is also the issue of using your most powerful weapon against the shadow simply to nudge the pattern along; I dont think it would risk the dragon this way; all that needs to happen is Ishy waking up at the wrong time, a bit of balefire, and viola; the Dark One wins a millenia before the last battle should be fought.
"Does this mean that whenever a channeler is reborn into the wheel, they will always be channelers?" Yes: channeling is a thing of the soul. "all that needs to happen is Ishy waking up at the wrong time, a bit of balefire, and viola; the Dark One wins a millenia before the last battle should be fought." Balefire doesn't destroy the soul, otherwise Ishamael would have made himself balefired already (and the universe would have run out of souls =) )
@@Mr_Yod Balefire does destroy the soul; it literally burns you out of the pattern. That was one of the most terrifying things about it; you would never be reborn to the Wheel again. As for Ishy; he didn't just want death for himself, he wanted it for everything, suicide by Balefire is unlikely to bring that around. There is also the paradox of balefiring yourself, since it removes any actions you did before the balefire hits you, and that is a snarl that is too early in the morning here for me to work out.
@@SH-qs7ee Nope: it doesn't. Not only it wouldn't make sense for the reasons I said, but also because Jordan confirmed it (you can find that both in an answer he gave to a fan and in the WoT Companion, quote at the end). The terrifying part is that it unravels the pattern (or do you think Demandred was cold sweating when ordered to use balefire because he cared about the souls of the people he killed?) and in part because the people in WoT are basically ignorants (they are unreliable narrators): some of them really believe that balefire destroys the soul (Nynaeve is one of them). As for Ishy: I never said "he would balefire himself", I said "he would make himself balefired", that means ordering someone to balefire him (tha actions get erased, but not the memory, so giving that order wouldn't be a paradox) or jumping in front of Moiraine saying "Hi! I'm Ishamael, nice to meet yo-". =) Besides he doesn't care about the rest of the world: he wanted eternal death for himself, so he allied with the Dark One because he knew the DO was the only one capable of giving him what he wanted, the destruction of everything else for him is just a byproduct of his desire. "balefire. An extreme weapon of channelers. It burned anything it touched into nonexistence and also burned threads from the Pattern, an effect which could destroy past realities. People who were balefired could not be brought back by the Dark One; however, their souls were not destroyed, and they could be spun out by the Wheel at a later time."
If this guy really was The Dragon Reborn, then wouldn’t Rand have started hearing his voice in his head instead of Lews Therin’s, since he would have been his most recent reincarnation?
The thing that bothers me about this theory is: If it is possible for the Dragon's soul to be spun out when it is not needed, what's to say the pattern might not get it wrong and not spin him out when he WAS needed?
I am not sure this can be true, mostly because it conflicts with my own thoughts on the matter of the Heroes of the Horn. Lews Therin and Hawkwing was both real people in Randland (that is, they are know in history and not legendary), so they are at the time of their need their latest reincarnation. Well, Hawkwing anyway, Lews is already reborn but whatever. ;-) Anyway, my though is that whenever the Heroes are needed the heroes that appear is the last reincarnated soul of that person. So when Rand and Hawking meet and Hawking talks he would have addressed Rand as Guaire Amalasan rathen than Lews Therin since Amalasan would have been the "last" incarnation of that soul. If that theory was correct. Which I think it isn't. Do I make any sense, I think I lost my own thread. Anyway, that being said the "Dragon" soul when Rand finally kicks the bucket it will be Rand al'Thor - Dragon Reborn that any hornsounder would summon until the whole cycle goes around again. And when a version of the Age of Legends comes around again there WILL be a Dragon or equivalent, the same soul if you will but you can be damned sure he (OR she, why not) will NOT be named Lews Therin. A version of events go around again and again as the wheel turns but I don't think it is the exact same ones. But that is my head canon. How is yours? :-P
I like the theory, and I think there is a difference for when one of the heroes of the horn are reborn as to when they are summoned by the horn, the way Birgitte talks about it sounds like she is not always called Birgitte silverbow when she is reborn (at least in the way that the wheel means for her instead of how Moghedien did it), she will fit the idea of Birgitte Silverbow because that's how her story will eventually go, she will do Birgitte Silverbow things because its what the pattern requires of her. Amalasan could have been the soul of Lews Therin reborn but it was not time for what the pattern required of the dragon, the story of The Dragon is to confront the dark one, and when amalasan was spun out it just wasn't time for that story to happen, the last time it was meant to happen at the time of the narrative was Lews Therin Telamon and now Rand Al'thor, that is why those two are The Dragon and The Dragon Reborn while Amalasan was not though he might still be the same soul reborn. I think I also got a little lost in my thread but I hope it made some sense. Its very metaphysical predestination philosophical talk that's hard to express
@@AverageAwesomeDude ;-) Hehe, no I get what you mean. I think...And yes, Birgitte is one of the people that also might put a wrench in my theory, at least as far as the Heroes go anyway. :-) One thing, not directly related but still, it seems to me that the Birgitte soul if you will is a "less important" (she IS important for sure, don't get me wrong) one than, say the Dragon? She seems to have a larger frequency of rebirth than Lews/possibly Amalasan/Rand. I only have her own remembered memories from the book to draw upon obviously so it might be that she was only reborn once every age, again see the Wheel for proof of circular nature. :-P In that her memories can have been from an infinite full turnings is what I am saying. But I still think she is a medium tier hero compared to the Dragon. I dunno.
Mmm I don't think this theory is correct. I remember I read somewhere that it is custom among the souls of the heroes of the horn to allways refer to a hero by that soul's last incarnation name, and Artur Hawkwings and many others call Rand "Lews Therin". Beside this, it would be a little strange that the memories and personality of Lews Therin bleed in Rand's own, but not Guaire Amalasan's.
I am not so sure about this. The world needed the true Dragon, and calling him Guaire would have reafirmed to Rand that the Tower meant to use him as a false dragon. This would have disrupted the weaving for years to come, possibly forever of it lead to the DO's release. Sure, Hawking could have explained meeting, but from the perpspective of the story, there was a battle happening and work to do; and from the perspective of storytelling it would have been an exposition dump which is a story telling no no (show don't tell). Also, if that is a custom, I am sure that applies to heroes of the horn, and I am not sure of Rand is that as his true purpose is that of the Creator's surrogate in the world. Also, Brigitte and Gaidal are known by those names. Perhaps they call each other by their most common names?
I don't think Amalsan was a iteration of the Dragon. It is an interesting theory, but I just have never believed it. Also..why do you call him Ish-My-el? It is supposed to sound more like Ish-May-el just like the Moby Dick character.
The Dragon must always try to become the Dragon, even if he is reborn during a time when the Pattern doesn't need a Dragon. So basically, the Dragon has no free agency. Even in lives when he is not needed to be the champion of the Light, he must follow the same path. Not only does this reduce arguably the most interesting False Dragon of the Third Age to a mere puppet of destiny, it does the same to Lews Therin Telemon and Rand al'Thor. If the Dragon must always attempt to become the Dragon, then Rand had no agency. He HAD to try to become the Dragon Reborn. When he fulfilled the prophecies and defeated the Dark One, it wasn't that he chose to sacrifice himself for the freedom of others, he was merely robotically playing out his destiny. This is why I dislike this theory. It hinges on an alteration to the nature of the Dragon that robs the Dragon of everything that makes him interesting. Without this addendum, whether Guaire Amalasan was another reincarnation of the Dragon or just one of the millions of other souls within the Pattern is merely a trivial curiosity.
Come to think of it, I DO hate Mat. I don't hate 'most' of the male characters, though. Just a few of them. Gawyn and Mat are at the top of my hated male characters list, but I hate Cadsuane more than I hate either of them.
Interesting. I realize you did not ask, so pardon me for saying. But if I were honest with myself...were I a woman who could channel and choose my Ajah, I prob would have been Gray. Would like to say that I'd have been Green, but I'm not brave enough to be in the Battle Ajah.@@Siansonea
Calvary... or cavalry? Pretty sure Mat Cauthon doesn't command Roman legions or employ such a barbaric form of punishment Still, long night battle sucked ass.
Great content. If you want to up your viewer reach, then don't wear distracting clothing. I would suggest an apropos costume coat and swap the whiteboard for slate and chalk.
I think the main detractor to the plausibility of this theory is that Rand/Lews Therin behave and interact as though Lews was the last time Rand's soul was alive. Until you realize what has really happened, as a reader you're left to wonder if Rand is somehow connected to the ghost of Lews Therin, still alive from the trauma of his final moments. Of course, you come to realize that Lews Therin is in no way alive, and Rand is completely mad, he's just mad in a way the Pattern needs, and has a past life recollection similar to Mat's (pre-Rhuidean) only it's complete, and isolated to Lews Therin. Why would that soul completely forget one or more iterations in the interim? While it's possible that Guaire, and even Yurian and Raolin were Lews Therin reborn, I think they really only exist in the story to illustrate the threat of a false dragon. Men channeling go mad and destroy, but false dragons destabilize nation-states, and are the true cause of the Red Ajah, and maybe the White Tower as a whole. This distinction becomes pretty plot significant. In other words I really think they matter to the story so Rand can clearly and arrogantly declare that he was NOT Guaire Amalasan, NOT Yurian Stonebow and most definitely not no mfin Raolin mfin Darksbane! I kind of think that a truly effective false dragon really being the REAL dragon just hatched before time undermines the point Jordan was trying to make about false messiahs. One of those points is the only thing worse than a false messiah showing up and proclaiming the end of days, is the REAL messiah showing up.
Oh and I know it's bad form to self-reply, but I HAVE to address something that this prophecy mentions. Lews Therin Telamon is dead. Rand al'Thor is insane. Semhirage confirms this. Rand does NOT have memories of the Age of Legends, Rand has dead on accurate novel ideas that mirror the Age of Legends, due to his genius, and he compensates for these prodigious inventions and rediscoveries with an IMAGINARY FRIEND. There is ZERO evidence that the man Rand sees in the corner of his eye from time to time even LOOKS like the real Lews Therin, but it probably does. Guys, Rand invents weaves long before he hears Lews Therin in his head, everything he learns until Asmodean is just wilder experimentation at beyond Mozart prodigious level. So his channeling, up to and including things like deathgates were almost assuredly used in the Age of Legends, (although curious none of the Forsaken ever use any of the other weaves). What about his memories? What about them? He SAYS he remembers things from the Age of Legends, it scares Asmodean and chills Cadsuane, and he (of course) remembers the song. Well, BEFORE leaving the Stone of Tear for the Waste, where he meets Asmodean, he spends months reading every ancient book he could find there, and it had a library similar to its stockpile of items of power, ancient, and rivaling the White Tower. He probably picked up enough knowledge on the Age of Legends to make a great deal of intuitive leaps, when combined with his Wheel-demanded genius, and even his ta'veren nature. If he can pull out of others what they NEED to say to him, then he can pull out of himself the same thing. Nynaeve further confirms that he is an insane man when she delves him in ToM. If he were REALLY seeing Lews Therin and REALLY had his memories then he would NOT be insane. The melding of the three on Dragonmount was him psychologically, spiritually and magically coming to terms with who he IS, who WAS and who he had been spiritually linked to (Moridin)...this moment ISN'T just Rand making peace with his destiny, it actually REQUIRES the use of the power that he's holding, AND being partly in the world of dreams, (hence the need for Perrin's presence in the story). On Dragonmount he not only psychologically makes peace with what has happened to his mind, he uses the power and his will in the world of dreams to properly blend these identities, to set up the final trap at Shayol Ghul. Rand didn't remember the Song, folks, he just figured it out. And he needs his imaginary friend to explain it to himself, because Rand will never, ever consider himself the genius that he is.
terrible theory. I consider myself to be a bit of WoT wonk, and this theory is just terrible on every level. Calling your people the "children of the dragon" doesn't make them so, it just means he read the prophecies. I suspect it far more likely, that like Logain and Siuan, he could see "ta'veren" and was taunting the 'high-king to be' about his fate.
White board throwing shade at the Targaryans 😂
Epic!
Well, technically some other guy's memories would have known how not get his cavalry (not calvary) killed in battle, Mat is just the otherwise empty vessel that regurgitates the information.
But the sick burn against the strategists of the Long Night battle is still quite apt. Dany and Aegon really need a solid general at their side, neither of them is really up to the task, and Grey Worm doesn't seem to want to be Big Picture Guy.
Siansonea Orande you must be fun at parties
@@RalphThePlayer you'd be surprised.
@@Siansonea As far as GOT, they had experienced characters there to plan a battle as well as the intelligence about their enemy and how to defeat them. The issue is the writing and execution of the tv show. They sped it up too much and failed to fit in what should have been in the season. Unless this episode is one giant trick, which I doubt, because there are only 3 episodes left, the writers of the show did a bad job. They did not write true to the characters, the characters' knowledge and skill set, and it shows in all three episodes of this season, but particularly the battle of episode 3.
I don't think the theory holds up. It makes a number of unwarranted assumptions, for one thing, and I think there is direct evidence against at least one aspect of it. Rand lives through several incarnations of his life when using the portal stone in TGH, and in many of them, he never proclaims himself the Dragon. So the argument that the Dragon will always try to become the Dragon is clearly not correct.
Also, Artur Hawkwing specifically calls him "Lews Therin" at Falme. That implies to me that Lews Therin was Rand's last incarnation, and that Artur Hawkwing was the last incarnation of that particular soul, as well, since that's how he appeared, and we know they take the form of their last incarnation in _Tel'aran'rhiod_ normally.
That second statement is incorrect. It implies only that Lews Therin was both his and his master's last opponent. Moridin when playing a AoL era game, thinks that the Fisher (blind man holding his side) is a representation of one of the past Dragons, yet does not recognize who it is suposed to be despite having claimed to know all the faces and names of the Dragon. It is nothing more than bluff and posture. Even the Dark One can be ignorant, and why would Ishmael (who would know the current status of the seals on the Dark One's prision) think the Dragon had been reborn (early), when he knows the time of confrontation was not at hand. Assuming that it also was not more bluff, it would give credence to his claim that the Dragon as before been used as the DO's champion as a pawn (unknowing or otherwise) to unleash evil. If that is the case, the Dragon would be reborn again later to "undo the ancient wrong". The only counter to this point is that the DO never gives up a tool, so it would only be plausible if the Dragon supported him unknowingly.
Your first point talks about the Dragon "always" trying to declare himself. I agree that this is not so, however it is likely that the Pattern would spin out a foil to the Dragon in case he does proclaim himself at the wrong time. Someone who would come before his rise of power so would be outside his influence and able to stand with their own convictions against him rather than those inherited (for or against) by the people who raised him/her. Even Brigitte said that sometimes she and Gaidal at times had lived long lives and died of age not onowing of their greater purpose. That suggests that during that time, perhaps they were meant to be the Dragon's foil should he proclaim himself, but he never did so they did not have to fulfill that role.
@@joshuafriday9748 I'm not sure what Ishamael has to do with my point about Artur Hawkwing? Artur Hawkwing is one of the Heroes of the Horn, and he appears specifically as that incarnation, just as he would in the World of Dreams. If the Dragon had been reborn as Guaire Amalasan, why would *Artur Hawkwing* -- the man who _defeated_ Amalasan -- not have called him by that moniker, rather than Lews Therin?
There's really nothing to support the theory other than guesswork, and in my opinion, this is evidence against it.
@@lDanielHolm That even the most knowledgeable characters are not omniscient. Even assuming Hawkwing did know, calling Rand by the name of a known false dragon would have been counterproductive not only to the story but to its world. Rand needed to come to grips with being the Dragon as it was the proper time and place where as it was not in the time of Guaire.
@@joshuafriday9748 One of the only pieces of evidence for the theory in the first place is Artur Hawkwing stating he has fought against the Dragon. In order for that to be relevant, he would *have* to know. As for the rest, Artur Hawkwing does not strike me as the manipulative type, especially consideirng his conflict with Aes Sedai.
@@lDanielHolm Just because he knows, does not mean he knows all. And would it be manipulating to tell a person who they are? Calling him Guaire would have induced more internal conflict in Rand, where as calling him Lews Therin makes it explicitly clear that he is the Dragon Reborn. And seeing as how Hawkwing is bound not only to the Horn and to the Wheel, but to the Light itself (as are all heroes, otherwise they could be forced to fight for the shadow, which the heroes have disavowed as a possibility), why would he say or do anything to jepordize the mission of the Dragon Reborn, and likewise how would he have fought against the Dragon Reincarnation line if he was not occasionally spun out for that exact purpose?
Dope series man! I have never been exposed to WOT fan theory’s but I am a huge WOT fan so I am very excited. :) thank you for putting this together, perfect for my lunch break!
A prequel about Arthur Hawkwing from rise to fall with Amalasan as an antagonist before Ishamael would be really good (if done right, not even the main story got that), kind of like GoT and HotD, seeing other nations and a deffirent time period.
I just want to say thank you so much! You are extremely well informed and studied in wheel of time. There's definitely great demand for this and I'm happy to see how your subscriber numbers are skyrocketing. Also, thanks for the more regular releases lately, I think everyone will watch however many videos you release.
Thanks my friend. I appreciate it. It’s a lot of fun!
6:55 yeah, but thats not the banner of light, thats the dragon's banner. the banner of light is the fang and flame ;P
I cant remember where i read this (somwhere in the wiki), but i think it is stated that the soul of the dragon is only spun out once every age. I could be completly wrong tho.
Since the souls of the wheel of time are spun out when they are needed, and we have no idea how many times the wheel has turned at this point i dont think its unlikely to say that they might have fought many times in other ages. Infinit time lines my guy!
Dude! That comment on the board behind you is the best thing I've read since 2019 started !
Shade has been thrown! and its so dark we can't see anything!
Finally, after putting it down after RJs death, I finished the series. I've been devouring your content since. Thanks, man.
I think this one is true - it does all fit if at fist seem unlikely, but it is the only thing that makes sense for Hawkwing's comment about fighting the dragon - there is no other indication of the dragon ever fighting Hawkwing I can think of. However it's so buried and subtle I am amazed fans deduced this - I wonder if this was Jordan's intent and cannon, or if it was a happy coincidence that the event fit, and hawkwing's comment was a loose end that never got finished kind of like what lesson Cadsuane taught the Ashaman?
to me this is cannon more than theory, why? simply because Robert Jordan didn't write useless characters, every single character is there for a reason, some more than others, and, in following a fantasy trope created by Tolkien with Tom Bombadill, not everything has to be explicit, this connection makes sense, especially when your Main Character is a cyclical phenomenon, and it is supposed to have already appeared in our times; in the books, we see the many references to Jesus, Tyr, and many other "deity" figures from our global cultures, so there must be others, lost to us readers in the turnings of the wheel.
Wouldn't it be just wonderful, to know that the wheel would spun the dragon, just to have a tranquil life every now and then? so that that tortured soul can experience some peace every so often? We as readers know that the wheel does this for others (heroes of the horn), from the experiences told by Birgitte., that sometimes the wheel would just spun her out to have a regular life, to be happy with Gaidal.
Great post.
I don’t know. Hawkwing calls Rand “Lews Therin” in TGH. Why not call him Guaire, if that’s the most recent iteration under which he’d be familiar?
Not sure who did it, but your intro and especially your outro music are amazing. Keep up the great work!
Ian Gwaltney Nick Masters and the Reflections Of Sound. They do the whole soundtrack from the books, it’s incredible. The one in this video is from Jak o’ the Shadows though in other videos he uses an excerpt from Tinker in the Kitchen. I really hope they use Nick Masters’ versions for the show because they are perfectly fitting for the books.
Love the opening tune hehe my favourite of Matt’s tunes.
Bonus points for the Egon clip. Don't cross the streams! Every time I read that part, that is exactly what I think of haha. Anyway I love this new series idea. I honestly don't know many fan theories. This one is pretty interesting and also pretty plausible. I mean, your oppositional points haven't convinced me to believe otherwise, anyway.
Third presence is Rand's mind is definitely Ish/Moridin. The counter argument isn't very compelling. Ish & Lews are pretty intimately familiar with each other and Lew Therin has nearly as many depressive episodes as he has manic outbursts. He isn't always angry/violent/paranoid when thoughts of the various forsaken come up. It's not unreasonable for him to recognize the soul inside of Moridin (Ishmael) and to regret that they cause so much anguish in each spinning of the wheel... especially if he's deep in the throws of a depressive episode.
There is also the fact that Rand recognizes the face in a moment of clarity in Knife of Dreams as the face of the man who helped him fight Sammael in Shadar Logoth. Also in Knife of Dreams, there is a passage where Rand channels and the face appears and looks furious and near to being sick. Rand expresses that the face is aware of him in that moment. In the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand gets the mental link sickness without channeling, likely because Moridin channelled Saidin. I think this is pretty strong evidence that a link exists after the balefire collision, and I believe the link also is what drives Moridin into using the True Power exclusively so that he both avoids the link sickness, and keeps Rand from getting any insight through the link.
I think Ishmael and Lew Therin are obviously linked by the wheel and the only reason he says us three instead of us two is because Rand hasn't had his Jesus/Buddha moment yet where they stop being two distinct and separate entities in his mind. I'd posit that the Lew Therin half of Rand's mind has some sort of subconscious understanding that he and Rand are one, but since Rand hasn't accepted it yet, he's basically forced to acknowledge Rand's distinct personality even if they are the same soul, thus he says "We three."
Great Post
Cool video💯💯💯 Keep up the great work. There're tons of people who know the books far better than I do, and I could easily be off base here. But I think the theory seems plausible. Ishamael and the Dragon were, if I remember right, also linked in the pattern. He told Rand that quite a few times - and given Ishamel's erudition from the Age of Legends and his time spent around the Dark One, he was arguably the foremost authority on the subject. And Ishamael was not trapped the way the other Forsaken were. He reemerged a couple of times - e.g., the Trolloc War. What if the pattern spun out the Dragon prematurely, but to deal with the realistic threat presented by the Dragon's counterpart? It seems plausible that any brief appearance of the Dragon's principal adversary could prompt the pattern to spin out the Dragon - and then to course-correct following the realization that even a time of great upheaval was not the right time for the prophecies to be fulfilled.
I think this is a plausible reason why the dragon might be spun out early.
He is not likely the dragon, just a false dragon (unintentionally). If and when the dragon was spit out in other, unnecessary, times, I think he likely lived a quiet life. Its said that those tied to the wheel can sometimes be spit out to live normal, uneventful lives. This is just my opinion, likely it's filled with flaws.
I feel like, if this is true, and the Dragon was indeed spun out as Guaire Amalasan, then it wasn't to be the Dragon so much as to be Hawkwing's adversary, and thus open the way for Hawkwing's conquests (with a large area of land de-stabilized). Thus, the Dragon being reborn at that time aided the last battle, in a very indirect way. But if the Chosen hadn't interfered with the Seanchan then they wouldn't have come over.
Wait did I say Chosen? I totally meant Forsaken. Yup. Totally.
*side-eyes Waiting Idly, whitecloakedly*
"Hello, Whitecloak 911? Yeah, I have a darkfriend to report, please note the details.. "
I am not quite sure about this, but I'd say no. The prophecy of the Karaethon Cycle stated long before Amalasan was born: "On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man. He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood". Amalasan was not born on the slopes of Dragonmount, nor was he a son of a maiden. Therefore, he was clearly not the Dragon. Now, the question is why would the Pattern spun out the soul of Lews Therin to be incarnated in a wrong person and in a wrong time? I don't think it makes sense. With regard to Lews Therin referring to the third person in Rand's head, it could be Moridin. From the moment his balefire crossed with Moridin's, Rand formed certain connection with him and his perception of Moridin was not the same as had been his perception of Ishamael. Although they were adversaries, Rand didn't hate him and was not afraid of him. The same event could have had effect to Lews Therin in the same way, so when he spoke of Moridin in Rand's head, he was able to do it without expressing outright hatred.
That prophesy was about he who would stand before the storm. Guaire could still have been a reincarnation, but not the chosen one. "Only the chosen one can do what must be done if he wills it". That implies to me, not only a specific soul, but a specific reincarnation of that same soul. I thinknit was Graendal that mused that she has never heard of a soul spun out for one exact purpose. Assuming her thought was correct, that would imply that the Dragon had been reborn at other times for other purposes, if not his Grand Purpose.
This is the first time I've come across this theory, I love it!
Loving your vids man. Great stuff!
So a related question I always had was why during the time of the last battle were all the heros of the horn not reborn and in their prime instead of being summonable by the horn.
Wouldn't Mat and Artur Hawkwing make a more formidible battle leadership team than Mat alone with Hawkwing summoned by the horn?
Ian Gwaltney maybe the wheel didn’t want all those hero’s getting in the way of the 3 taveren.. ya know like I don’t think it would of gone smooth to have Hawkwing and Rand spun out at the same time would of made Rand’s job ALOT harder to have to fend off hawking conquering at the same time he is
I very much want to see you in an unanswered questions panel at Jordancon
Anyone else feel sorry for Amalasan?
Can you go more into the cross streams of bail fire and how that effects each person
Theory: Artur and the Dragon have been spun out as the same person before: King Arthur Pendragon.
I'll be honest, the best thing about your videos are the messages on the board behind you 😂
Yes! But he needs to learn how to spell cavalry. :D
Niccolò Medeot Ha Ha , I only zoom in to read it.
What WoT book should I read about Amalasan and Hawkwing story.
Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 54 "The Sending" There is a reading from some books outlining the laws regarding male channellers with some discussion of previous false dragons. Loial tells stories he has heard from older Ogier which describes some of it. It's the chapter leading into the battle of Dumai's Wells.
Winter's Heart, Chapter 24 "Among the Counsels". Verin speaks of how Amalason conquered Far Madding and forced Hawkwing to retreat. IIRC, she even speculates that Amalason may have been a ta'varen, because all accounts of the battle suggest that he should have lost.
Finally, the companion book The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time gives a fairly detailed account of the War of the Second Dragon.
I agree, this seems like it could be true
Idea for a following episode in this serie: a theory on who the hell is Nakomi!
Agreed, never figured out who that is
How about a random character from RJ's discarded notes, which was never developed by the author, but brought out by BS with no sensible reason? BS seems to be doing that in his books all the time.
Awesome job. I am going to really enjoy this series.
one problem. someshta (the green man) mentions that the aiel are the people of the dragon in the first book, and he probably knew that BEFORE guaire. meaning that there was already a people of the dragon, and as moiraine also points out in the first book, you can name things anything, that doesn't mean that is what they are. no aiel, no people of the dragon. i won't argue whether he is or isn't the same thread as lews therin, there are arguments to be made that a single thread might arrive more than once in a single age, birgitte is a good example, she apparently lived more than one third age life not counting being ripped out of the tel'aran'rhiod, but the circumstances were definitely not in place for him to be "the dragon reborn" even if he was somehow the same thread, which i doubt.
Love this! You explained the theory so clearly.
Loved reading all the fan theories on wotmania
!cool video nae’blis
I think we three referred to the link with Ishmael/Moridin
This was also my take on it too
To me, it seems like the Wheel does not want the Bore (and the Dark One) to be inside the Pattern. As such, having various Ta'veren spun into the Pattern to try and repair the damage makes a certain kind of sense. Also, the damage caused by the Dark One (in a variety of ways) might be why the Wheel had so many failed, if not truly false, Dragons.
To that end, the Guaire Amalasan theory you speak of here could make a lot of sense. And as the Wheel turned, more Dragons were born until we finally got Rand al'Thor.
Rereading and on LoC so forgive me if memory is a little shaky, but after capture: doesn’t Rand get the knowledge of how to wear through the shield knots through LTT memories? And then shield and kill a couple of Aes Sedai from shock, imagine this scene played out exactly alike with Amalasan?
Very plausible. I like the idea.
I really like your videos; they're quite great and this one is no exception, but I gotta say something -
You mean cavalry [ kav-uhl-ree ], not Calvary [kal-vuh-ree], which has more to do with the crucifixion of Jesus, than horses in battles.
You're not the only person to make this mistake, it's *fairly* common, but it rubs me the wrong way just enough to correct someone. :)
Keep up the great works you're doing!
My crusade continues; to find others who get this word wrong.....AWAY!!
I’ve always thought the 3rd person alluded to was Moridin, and still do. Hawkwing’s reference to fighting against as much as for refers to the potential for the horn to be blown by either side in my opinion, and nothing to do with his exploits while living. I’m more inclined to believe that Ishamael was pulling some of Guaire’s strings as well as Hawkwing’s and the Tower’s. Ishamael does drop Guaire’s name along with Darksbane, Yurian, Davian and Logain as puppets of the tower to deceive Rand after all. I’d think Ishamael would speak of Guaire differently if he was more than a false dragon. The symmetry of Almoth Plain and Falme is interesting though...
I think the whole theory is very likely correct except for that last little bit about the voices given the Dark One when discussing with Rand refers to him sometimes being his champion sometimes not, sometime others are the Champion implying very much what Hawkwing suggests while clearly pinning Elan as the third. The lore behind Elan/Moridin/Ishamel focused on his ongoing conflict with Lews Therin and his supposed fall to the Dark One but there are parts that suggest it's not so much a failing but an inevitability which is reinforced by some of the forsaken or the Dark One when they talk about his past and how he became fully aware of himself being spun out time and time again as a sort of foil to the Dragon. I also recall at one point he even says to Rand they have done this over and over again throughout time and then I think about how in his most recent life before he joins the Dark One (this time) he was a Philosopher who had very interesting and controversial views on the Wheel itself and as I remember it was stated pretty directly that he joins the Dark one on the promise he will be removed from existence entirely. I don't have the actual citation on hand and it's been a few years since my last re-read but I remember most of this pretty clearly as well as there being several comments by the other forsaken and the Dark One about how he just doesn't want to exist anymore and if the Dark One gets free he was promised it would all be over.
I think what's lews ment when he said us three was the holder of his soul from the first age( nakomi) I think that nakomi is the original champion of the light from the third age and she won the battle so she was blessed with pattern changing abilities like rand and giving pretty much the ability to observe and enjoy life forever Lews lost so he was killed and his mind attached to rand which could explain that the dragon soul even tho attached the the wheel doesnt spend thousands of years waiting for resurrection in the dream world like the rest
Because if it did then theoretically the forsaken could hunt down the dragon before he is reborn and bale fire him in the dream world
Nakomi isbfrom the first age I ment
I think it's more likely he was manipulated by Ishamael. The second Dragon led to hawkwing, which led to the Seanchan, the near destruction of the White Tower as a trusted and Influential unifying force, and the War of 100 Years.
Yeah sure Guaire was Lews Therin soul reborn. But we can not call him the Dragon. I see it as one of the rebirths that strengthens the soul that WILL be the Dragon. The author(s) stresses rebirth throughout the series. Guaire, Raolin, and Yurian SHOULD be seen as Lews Therin soul reborn but not the Dragon Reborn. Throughout the third age some False Dragons are simply person in the wrong time. I gotta hit on your 2nd point Lews Therin is definitely talking about Moridin. It would be completely out of character and tone for Lews to randomly mention some third failed incarnation of him self. At that point in the series Rands main woe was the voice in his head and sickness with channelling. Lews saying the third is to bring back the reader attention to the crossing of balefire, which had not been mentioned in at least an book. It is great foreshadowing for Moridin, who is not even introduced fully for another book or 2 after the comment. But for it too be foreshadowing of a random 3rd incarnation is a stretch for a society that believes in reincarnation.
Would have loved the white board comment more if he picked the correct word. Calvary was the location of the Crucifixion, while cavalry is a horse mounted military force
Every time I see this mistake, my eye twitches uncontrollably. It's very common.
What if the Dragon was born every thousand years during the time Ishameal is free for his forty years?
I can get behind that as a reasoning for this theory, when he said 1000 years I briefly thought of that
I never came across this theory. I like it. Like Arture says, the Pattern does things for its own reasons. Even Birgitte was able to be spun out and live the occasional long happy live with Caine without doing anything momentous.
I always took the third as Moridin.
It makes sense, as the Dragon reborn is the strongest Taveren the pattern spins out. Without his presence, the pattern would never have spun out hawkwing, and it sounds as if they are both closely tied together in the pattern, taking into account what hawkwing says to Rand.
Well here is an idea perhaps the reason why Guaire Amalasan was born was because with so many souls being ended with Balefire in the previous age perhaps the pattern just had to start adding other souls back in to compensate the lack of other souls.
I really like your videos, I juat am a bit disturbed that you call yourself Nae'Blis. I guess I'm getting old. When I was young, everyone wanted to be the good guy. Now The forsaken, Sith, etc. are what everyone thinks is cool.
also wanna give props to dry erase board. easily a channel must read.
What is up with the term "calvary" ? I have never heard it before, but here it is written on the board and you clearly say it like that in the video. Just wondering if I am missing something ;)
Calvary was the hill that Jesus was crucified on, and became a common term for a sanctuary on a hill in Christian terminology.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_(sanctuary)
Me: finishes A Memory or Light
Naebs: “this video will contain a spoiler rating of red and will contain major spoilers...”
I think this is extremely likely for several reasons. The Dragon is a focal point used to correct the path of the pattern, the Dragon ALWAYS has a purpose, but only occasionally the purpose of defeating the Dark One. Guaire's defeat and humiliation could have surfaced in Rand as his reluctance to proclaim himself, and the loss of Guaire's friends and comrades why Rand is so hesitant to lead. Guire's voice is not heard, but it appears that it is his emotional memories that influences Rand's behavior. There is another theory that the Dragon Scarbard sword is actually Justice, as Rand recognized it from his own memories and for several reasons made him think of Falme. But if the sword really is Justice, why is it painted with Dragons? I think it is because the sword originally belonged to Guaire, and was claimed as a trophy by Hawkwing and used as a symbol of his own might, renaming the sword as a testimony that justice had prevailed. That gives dual meaning to Rand's statement that it had belonged tona "kindred spirit". That could mean Hawking, as they were both young conquers of the world; that he puzzled out the true owner of the sword due to his study of history, including how it came into possession of Hawkwing, or both.
I think you’re right man
Calvary?
I have an alternate 'third dragon' theory. At the end of each age, a dragon is born. They end one age and create the next. Lews Therin ended the Age of Legends and started the 3rd age by unwittingly unleashing the Breaking. Rand ended the Third Age and started the Fourth. Who was the third Dragon? The man who ended the FIRST age and created the Second. Perhaps the 'first dragon' is who discovered the One Power and thus ended the current age (our present day world that is alluded to being the age before the Age of Legends), and thus ushered in the second. Lews Therin would have known this first Dragon in much the same way Rand knew Kinslayer. Presumably a 4th Dragon would end the 4th age and begin the 5th, and that Dragon might have Rand rattling around in HIS head... saying things like 'not you, not me, not the other two...' and so on and so forth until the 7th age when that soul is retired and a new soul serves at the end of each age, starting the cycle anew...
This is why destroying or subverting the Dragon is so important to the Dark One's desire to break the Wheel. If you could truly destroy the Dragon's soul, no new ages, no more turning of the Wheel... the cycle would be broken and time would become truly linear.
This makes The Dragon, in each Age, the personification and actual embodiment of The Great Serpent... serpent... Dragon... one and the same, eating it's own tail by destroying one Age and creating another
voodoochild1975az yeah I like it except the only reason Rand heard Lews therin is because of the madness of the taint in other ages I don’t think they would hear each other’s voices
Fan theories... I like where this is going. Also, bet Mat would have given Theon a fucking Valyrian blade, too. Like maybe the one Sam stole.
Oh hell! I remember this post on theoryland.. Titled something like (Authur hawkwing: the dragonslayer) good times there from LoC and on.. I do believe this theory myself.
Could you do a episode on the theory that the bore is actually in the world of dreams? That one got epic if you were willing to read every comment even though the OP was long.. Or that the ways were part of the world of dreams.. I think the OP was something like "exploring the world of dreams" or something...
Lol I cant remember what fan theory site I was on, but I went by the name Tallanvor long before he became Morgase's personal protector/husband.
I still remember people hotly debating the theory that the Dragon killed himself with Balefire in the Prelude of EoTW, lol
WAS there A DRAGON before LEWS
Great theory because at this time the lands were so divided that they would be wiped out if the forces of the dark chose that time to conquer. It was not the dragon's time but a common foe like a 'false' dragon unites nations.
What gets me is how everyone was so stunned that 3 ta’veren were in one village. What if all three are reborn like Brigitte and Gaidal? Mat has all those memories. He doesn’t mention being Artur, but he’s a powerful ta’veren. Where’s the iteration of Perrin? Are there always 3: a Dragon, a warrior, and a wolf?
Everyone is always reborn. Hawkwing calls Mat the Gambler in AMoL. The pattern has spun him and Rand and everyone out time and time again. Some things are constant, some things change.
The third person was the would prior to Lews.
Is it not cavalry?
Maybe I’ll run to school and see if Brandon Sanderson is in his office and ask him.
I'd like to humbly point out that the word you are looking for to describe mounted soldiers is CAVALRY both on your whiteboard and when you say it. Calvary is actually something else entirely.
Not sure about the theory. I think it's backwards. The Pattern didn't need the Dragon. However, it did need Hawkwing. There would be no Andor without the fall of Hawkwing's army. Further, without Bonwhin's betrayal, Manatherin would have still been a country and the history of the tower would have changed.
Does this mean that whenever a channeler is reborn into the wheel, they will always be channelers? If it is only the dragon, then he is bound to the wheel like the others, such as Gaidal, Artur and Birgitte. Does this also mean that for 3000+ years, an insane Lews Therin wandered the World of Dreams? Seems unlikely given the damage that would've wrought.
As for Arturs comment about fighting against eachother, given he came straight from Tel'aran'rhoid to answer the horns call, he would very likely retain the knowledge of hundreds (if not more) turnings of the wheel; Ishamael has also intimated he and and the dragon were as often allies as they were rivals.
Also, given Lews Therin's and Rands Ta'veren power, if Amalasan was the dragon reborn at the wrong time, chances are he would be a more powerful ta'veren than Hawkwing.
There is also the issue of using your most powerful weapon against the shadow simply to nudge the pattern along; I dont think it would risk the dragon this way; all that needs to happen is Ishy waking up at the wrong time, a bit of balefire, and viola; the Dark One wins a millenia before the last battle should be fought.
"Does this mean that whenever a channeler is reborn into the wheel, they will always be channelers?"
Yes: channeling is a thing of the soul.
"all that needs to happen is Ishy waking up at the wrong time, a bit of balefire, and viola; the Dark One wins a millenia before the last battle should be fought."
Balefire doesn't destroy the soul, otherwise Ishamael would have made himself balefired already (and the universe would have run out of souls =) )
@@Mr_Yod Balefire does destroy the soul; it literally burns you out of the pattern. That was one of the most terrifying things about it; you would never be reborn to the Wheel again.
As for Ishy; he didn't just want death for himself, he wanted it for everything, suicide by Balefire is unlikely to bring that around. There is also the paradox of balefiring yourself, since it removes any actions you did before the balefire hits you, and that is a snarl that is too early in the morning here for me to work out.
@@SH-qs7ee Nope: it doesn't.
Not only it wouldn't make sense for the reasons I said, but also because Jordan confirmed it (you can find that both in an answer he gave to a fan and in the WoT Companion, quote at the end).
The terrifying part is that it unravels the pattern (or do you think Demandred was cold sweating when ordered to use balefire because he cared about the souls of the people he killed?) and in part because the people in WoT are basically ignorants (they are unreliable narrators): some of them really believe that balefire destroys the soul (Nynaeve is one of them).
As for Ishy: I never said "he would balefire himself", I said "he would make himself balefired", that means ordering someone to balefire him (tha actions get erased, but not the memory, so giving that order wouldn't be a paradox) or jumping in front of Moiraine saying "Hi! I'm Ishamael, nice to meet yo-". =)
Besides he doesn't care about the rest of the world: he wanted eternal death for himself, so he allied with the Dark One because he knew the DO was the only one capable of giving him what he wanted, the destruction of everything else for him is just a byproduct of his desire.
"balefire. An extreme weapon of channelers. It burned anything it touched into nonexistence and also burned threads from the Pattern, an effect which could destroy past realities. People who were balefired could not be brought back by the Dark One; however, their souls were not destroyed, and they could be spun out by the Wheel at a later time."
Blood and ashes that's interesting!
If this guy really was The Dragon Reborn, then wouldn’t Rand have started hearing his voice in his head instead of Lews Therin’s, since he would have been his most recent reincarnation?
The third person is Nakomi.
Fuck yah! #red4Rand!!!! good job buddy. keep it up!
I love your videos man... but why do you keep saying Calvary when it is Cavalry, I see this with many American youtubers - is it something specific?
The thing that bothers me about this theory is: If it is possible for the Dragon's soul to be spun out when it is not needed, what's to say the pattern might not get it wrong and not spin him out when he WAS needed?
I am not sure this can be true, mostly because it conflicts with my own thoughts on the matter of the Heroes of the Horn. Lews Therin and Hawkwing was both real people in Randland (that is, they are know in history and not legendary), so they are at the time of their need their latest reincarnation. Well, Hawkwing anyway, Lews is already reborn but whatever. ;-) Anyway, my though is that whenever the Heroes are needed the heroes that appear is the last reincarnated soul of that person. So when Rand and Hawking meet and Hawking talks he would have addressed Rand as Guaire Amalasan rathen than Lews Therin since Amalasan would have been the "last" incarnation of that soul. If that theory was correct. Which I think it isn't. Do I make any sense, I think I lost my own thread. Anyway, that being said the "Dragon" soul when Rand finally kicks the bucket it will be Rand al'Thor - Dragon Reborn that any hornsounder would summon until the whole cycle goes around again.
And when a version of the Age of Legends comes around again there WILL be a Dragon or equivalent, the same soul if you will but you can be damned sure he (OR she, why not) will NOT be named Lews Therin. A version of events go around again and again as the wheel turns but I don't think it is the exact same ones. But that is my head canon. How is yours? :-P
I like the theory, and I think there is a difference for when one of the heroes of the horn are reborn as to when they are summoned by the horn, the way Birgitte talks about it sounds like she is not always called Birgitte silverbow when she is reborn (at least in the way that the wheel means for her instead of how Moghedien did it), she will fit the idea of Birgitte Silverbow because that's how her story will eventually go, she will do Birgitte Silverbow things because its what the pattern requires of her. Amalasan could have been the soul of Lews Therin reborn but it was not time for what the pattern required of the dragon, the story of The Dragon is to confront the dark one, and when amalasan was spun out it just wasn't time for that story to happen, the last time it was meant to happen at the time of the narrative was Lews Therin Telamon and now Rand Al'thor, that is why those two are The Dragon and The Dragon Reborn while Amalasan was not though he might still be the same soul reborn.
I think I also got a little lost in my thread but I hope it made some sense. Its very metaphysical predestination philosophical talk that's hard to express
@@AverageAwesomeDude ;-) Hehe, no I get what you mean. I think...And yes, Birgitte is one of the people that also might put a wrench in my theory, at least as far as the Heroes go anyway. :-)
One thing, not directly related but still, it seems to me that the Birgitte soul if you will is a "less important" (she IS important for sure, don't get me wrong) one than, say the Dragon? She seems to have a larger frequency of rebirth than Lews/possibly Amalasan/Rand. I only have her own remembered memories from the book to draw upon obviously so it might be that she was only reborn once every age, again see the Wheel for proof of circular nature. :-P In that her memories can have been from an infinite full turnings is what I am saying. But I still think she is a medium tier hero compared to the Dragon. I dunno.
Mmm I don't think this theory is correct. I remember I read somewhere that it is custom among the souls of the heroes of the horn to allways refer to a hero by that soul's last incarnation name, and Artur Hawkwings and many others call Rand "Lews Therin". Beside this, it would be a little strange that the memories and personality of Lews Therin bleed in Rand's own, but not Guaire Amalasan's.
I am not so sure about this. The world needed the true Dragon, and calling him Guaire would have reafirmed to Rand that the Tower meant to use him as a false dragon. This would have disrupted the weaving for years to come, possibly forever of it lead to the DO's release. Sure, Hawking could have explained meeting, but from the perpspective of the story, there was a battle happening and work to do; and from the perspective of storytelling it would have been an exposition dump which is a story telling no no (show don't tell). Also, if that is a custom, I am sure that applies to heroes of the horn, and I am not sure of Rand is that as his true purpose is that of the Creator's surrogate in the world. Also, Brigitte and Gaidal are known by those names. Perhaps they call each other by their most common names?
I don't think Amalsan was a iteration of the Dragon. It is an interesting theory, but I just have never believed it. Also..why do you call him Ish-My-el? It is supposed to sound more like Ish-May-el just like the Moby Dick character.
The Dragon must always try to become the Dragon, even if he is reborn during a time when the Pattern doesn't need a Dragon. So basically, the Dragon has no free agency. Even in lives when he is not needed to be the champion of the Light, he must follow the same path. Not only does this reduce arguably the most interesting False Dragon of the Third Age to a mere puppet of destiny, it does the same to Lews Therin Telemon and Rand al'Thor. If the Dragon must always attempt to become the Dragon, then Rand had no agency. He HAD to try to become the Dragon Reborn. When he fulfilled the prophecies and defeated the Dark One, it wasn't that he chose to sacrifice himself for the freedom of others, he was merely robotically playing out his destiny.
This is why I dislike this theory. It hinges on an alteration to the nature of the Dragon that robs the Dragon of everything that makes him interesting. Without this addendum, whether Guaire Amalasan was another reincarnation of the Dragon or just one of the millions of other souls within the Pattern is merely a trivial curiosity.
I have all the audiobooks for the WOT and since the trash TV series came out, I’ve jumped back into the audiobooks to cleanse myself lol
IT IS NOT HERE.
The third would be moridin tho
Oh, and before Siansonea shows up and says it....we get it, you hate Mat and most of the male characters.
Come to think of it, I DO hate Mat. I don't hate 'most' of the male characters, though. Just a few of them. Gawyn and Mat are at the top of my hated male characters list, but I hate Cadsuane more than I hate either of them.
Thumbs up and well said! @@Siansonea
Question for you...if you were Aes Sedai, what would your Ajah be? @@Siansonea
@@sanmiguel3280 the tests always put me in the White Ajah. Seems logical.
Interesting. I realize you did not ask, so pardon me for saying. But if I were honest with myself...were I a woman who could channel and choose my Ajah, I prob would have been Gray. Would like to say that I'd have been Green, but I'm not brave enough to be in the Battle Ajah.@@Siansonea
For every fucking one, the word is spelled C-A-V-A-L-R-Y ffs....... great video GM.
If its true then poor old Guaire XD
All Dislikes associated with his choice of attire.
Calvary... or cavalry?
Pretty sure Mat Cauthon doesn't command Roman legions or employ such a barbaric form of punishment
Still, long night battle sucked ass.
This theory makes sense. Plausible.
Great content. If you want to up your viewer reach, then don't wear distracting clothing. I would suggest an apropos costume coat and swap the whiteboard for slate and chalk.
I think the main detractor to the plausibility of this theory is that Rand/Lews Therin behave and interact as though Lews was the last time Rand's soul was alive. Until you realize what has really happened, as a reader you're left to wonder if Rand is somehow connected to the ghost of Lews Therin, still alive from the trauma of his final moments. Of course, you come to realize that Lews Therin is in no way alive, and Rand is completely mad, he's just mad in a way the Pattern needs, and has a past life recollection similar to Mat's (pre-Rhuidean) only it's complete, and isolated to Lews Therin. Why would that soul completely forget one or more iterations in the interim? While it's possible that Guaire, and even Yurian and Raolin were Lews Therin reborn, I think they really only exist in the story to illustrate the threat of a false dragon. Men channeling go mad and destroy, but false dragons destabilize nation-states, and are the true cause of the Red Ajah, and maybe the White Tower as a whole. This distinction becomes pretty plot significant.
In other words I really think they matter to the story so Rand can clearly and arrogantly declare that he was NOT Guaire Amalasan, NOT Yurian Stonebow and most definitely not no mfin Raolin mfin Darksbane! I kind of think that a truly effective false dragon really being the REAL dragon just hatched before time undermines the point Jordan was trying to make about false messiahs. One of those points is the only thing worse than a false messiah showing up and proclaiming the end of days, is the REAL messiah showing up.
Oh and I know it's bad form to self-reply, but I HAVE to address something that this prophecy mentions. Lews Therin Telamon is dead. Rand al'Thor is insane. Semhirage confirms this. Rand does NOT have memories of the Age of Legends, Rand has dead on accurate novel ideas that mirror the Age of Legends, due to his genius, and he compensates for these prodigious inventions and rediscoveries with an IMAGINARY FRIEND. There is ZERO evidence that the man Rand sees in the corner of his eye from time to time even LOOKS like the real Lews Therin, but it probably does. Guys, Rand invents weaves long before he hears Lews Therin in his head, everything he learns until Asmodean is just wilder experimentation at beyond Mozart prodigious level. So his channeling, up to and including things like deathgates were almost assuredly used in the Age of Legends, (although curious none of the Forsaken ever use any of the other weaves). What about his memories? What about them? He SAYS he remembers things from the Age of Legends, it scares Asmodean and chills Cadsuane, and he (of course) remembers the song. Well, BEFORE leaving the Stone of Tear for the Waste, where he meets Asmodean, he spends months reading every ancient book he could find there, and it had a library similar to its stockpile of items of power, ancient, and rivaling the White Tower. He probably picked up enough knowledge on the Age of Legends to make a great deal of intuitive leaps, when combined with his Wheel-demanded genius, and even his ta'veren nature. If he can pull out of others what they NEED to say to him, then he can pull out of himself the same thing.
Nynaeve further confirms that he is an insane man when she delves him in ToM. If he were REALLY seeing Lews Therin and REALLY had his memories then he would NOT be insane. The melding of the three on Dragonmount was him psychologically, spiritually and magically coming to terms with who he IS, who WAS and who he had been spiritually linked to (Moridin)...this moment ISN'T just Rand making peace with his destiny, it actually REQUIRES the use of the power that he's holding, AND being partly in the world of dreams, (hence the need for Perrin's presence in the story). On Dragonmount he not only psychologically makes peace with what has happened to his mind, he uses the power and his will in the world of dreams to properly blend these identities, to set up the final trap at Shayol Ghul.
Rand didn't remember the Song, folks, he just figured it out. And he needs his imaginary friend to explain it to himself, because Rand will never, ever consider himself the genius that he is.
Guaire Amalasan, was a false dragon. he might have thought he was the dragon and aes sedai told him he was but he never was or will be the Dragon
terrible theory.
I consider myself to be a bit of WoT wonk, and this theory is just terrible on every level. Calling your people the "children of the dragon" doesn't make them so, it just means he read the prophecies. I suspect it far more likely, that like Logain and Siuan, he could see "ta'veren" and was taunting the 'high-king to be' about his fate.