I think that one of the reasons that Egwene and Nyneve seemed to learn everything abnormally fast is because they weren't in the Tower long enough to be brainwashed into believing that it was impossible to do the things that they ended up doing.
And that was the point. George Carlin had a great dialogue about the concept. He is driving along a country hwy and he looks over and he sees a kid apparently riding his bike in mid air. He figures out the kid is actually riding along the top of a stone wall. Carlin says then " and you know what? Somebody is gonna f-up and tell the kid about gravity and he'll never be able to do it again." RJ was pointin g out that the limitations were artificial.
@@jaredadams8069 No, Cadsuane would make you see by herself what you did wrong and find a way to make you regret it and do the best you can if you see her again. Cadsuane does not need some lowly manager to handle her problems. And I wouldn't call Elaida a Karen either, because she, too, handles her own shit. Neither one is a "whine to other people", "get bent out of shape over petty bullshit" type. Demira, on the other hand... total Karen. I think Romanda and Lelaine are somewhat Karenish as well.
Re: rediscovering travelling, Aviendha did it first unconsciously as well, which should be more unlikely, except she is never able to repeat the weave again and has trouble learning the other weave later on. Which leads to one of the biggest points the book is trying to make, which is that the White Tower is so set in its own ways and riddled with division that it actually holds back its own progress. Much of what the Super Girls are able to do is because they question tower doctrine and are willing to keep trying, while the people who manage to become Aes Sedai are often promoted because they aren't willing to make waves and don't question leadership.
Another theme the book explores with the kin, the wise ones, and the sea folk. Every group has channeling techniques basically unheard of to the white tower because of their different philosophies and values.
Never once thought of her as a Mary Sue. The book is very detailed about how she learns her powers, so she doesn't just gain them with no effort or sacrifice. Also, her choices have real consequences, she screws up a number of times, another indication she's not a Mary Sue.
my only real complaint about her is how her unbridled arrogance never really gets punished, she assumes she'll be the best, she becomes the best, and while she has some moments of failures it never really seems to me that she repents that arrogance. With rand, the male counterpart to egwene in the story, he experiences the catharsis of realizing his arrogance and repenting from it, with egwene she just learns how to act humble when it's convenient but she never actually gets humbled from the height of her power like rand does, and I was really hoping that would happen. Even her greatest points of failure are cushioned by everyone around her already understanding what she's going through as a leader and she always has a support structure around her to help her through. Rand gets damn near abandoned by half his support structure and pushes the rest away, experiencing the resulting decline in his mental state in a very real and well written way, eventually realizing both how selfish he's been and how much he needs to chill out through personal reflection on what's happened to him. It seems like egwene gets emotionally carried through a lot of the narrative.
@@Cassiuswasright While what you say is all true, there are two points - she DOES keep acting arrogant and as if consequences can't happen to her, and it eventually catches up to her. The other is that in reality, some people DO get away with everything and fail upwards all the time. Even when Egwene gets her husband and warder killed and destroys herself overreaching, she's probably going down in history as a hero, just like Logain will go on to glory he dies not seem to have earned at the Last Battle. It's part of that theme of how stories change and as Thom says Rand will be lucky if the next Age gets his name right.
@@Gunleaver Egwene didn't get her Warder/Husband killed. He did that to himself by actively not listening to her and remaining near as a Warder should. Nor does it "catch up" with her. In her significantly emotional state, having just lost Gawyn, she has the epiphany of creating a BRAND NEW WEAVE mid fight, before burning herself out because it took the remainder of her power and then some, giving her a heroic send off. It "catching up" to her would be paying a price for her arrogance, but she never did. Egwene towards the end 100% becomes a Mary Sue, which is hilarious considering her Warder/Husband was a Gary Sue. My two least favorite characters in the series as well, go figure.
@@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken Heroic send-off, yes, but it's also tied into what came before. She was willing to give up her life to make the weave succeed, because her judgment was compromised by the breaking of the warder bond. It's not explicit, but then Sanderson really dropped the ball on accurately depicting the warder bonds in action. Another way her death was the result of her characterization was her belief that she was entitled to be the best and do anything her friends did. And then Perrin showed her up by defeating balefire, and using T'A'R skills, which is supposed to be HER thing, so when she saw a chance to fix the balefire damage, she could not resist the chance to one-up Perrin in that manner. Furthermore, the heroism of her death is absolutely not earned by the story. With Gawyn's death, she had incentive to want the pain to stop, and less interest in going on with life, and it's hard to believe that the rare & minor uses of balefire we saw in the series was enough to start tearing apart the Pattern to create real danger, when in the War of the Shadow, it took entire cities being erased to have that effect. She also paid a price, because her arrogance in trying too hard to control Gawyn and the terms of the relationship compromised her authority over him. She was so dead-set on trying to make him kneel that when he proved right and saved her from the Seanchan assassins, in his mind it justified his resistance to her, and proved to him that he was right to go off on his own and do what he thought best. And, too, the whole thing where he resented Rand overstepping his rank, and was jealous of Rand's position as the hero, completely came out of nowhere. There is not the slightest indication of it throughout the books, even after he believes that Rand killed his mother. Then, after spending some time with Egwene, who ABSOLUTELY resents Rand's rank, power and status as the most important person wrt Tarmon Gaidon, Gawyn is suddenly whining about this up-jumped shepherd casting down thrones. Egwene was the one who gave him all these ideas about Rand, and made him jealous, which is the apparent motivation for him to take up Demandred's challenge in Rand's place.
???? If Egwene is a Mary Sue, almost everyone in WoT is. She's a force of nature, but she is warped more by the story than the other way around. Born of an unglamorous backstory, not the object of the 3 main characters' affection, not one of the chosen Ta'veren. Taken prisoner and used as a tool in war, used as a puppet and a prop in politics - she doesn't break under the pressure is all, she rises to it. Without the pressure, she'd never have done squat.
Well see, this has always been my main complaint with the books, they all DO seem like mary sue characters to me, and I blame RJ for having a brilliant story idea and world but not being able to write unique characters--particularly women. They are so interchangeable. I love the books but some moments are completely insufferable.
@@Rye_Toast interchangeable characters? Haha it the best series ever for their lack of interchangeability. Delete any name from any chapter, you still know who’s head you’re in. The other part about Mary Sues yes all the Boys lean quite hard in that direction.
That Egwene is a good leader can also be explained by her parents. Brandelwyn is the mayor of Two Rivers and the head of Village Council and Marin is part of the Women's circle, it would not be unbelievable that Egwene has been in the same room as their meetings have been and learned some of it, maybe not consciously but subliminally.
Great points about the people around Egwene getting dumber rather than Egwene just getting away with everything. Great video as always! Awesome insight!
Honestly, to me that only felt like growing up and realising the adults around you are not as perfect as they seemed as a child. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they aren't stupid as well...
That was Brandon Sanderson's writing. Egwene did not have miraculous success in the Tower until he took over. As of the chapter Jordan wrote with her in the Tower, all she had done was win over the novices. And yes, a lot of her success is due to her running free in the Tower, but that's because of the well-established Aes Sedai trait of being trained to accept the White Tower categories of things, even if it makes no sense. Pevara and Seaine are BFF for a decade, but they stop being friends, because their Ajahs tell them to. Faile lists Aes Sedai who betrayed their own families, or married & bore children to a hated husband, because the Tower told her to. When Elayne makes the sisters in Ebou Dar accept that she is a legit Aes Sedai they IMMEDIATELY flip from treating her like a juvenile delinquent to obeying her orders, because that's what you do for a legit sister as strong as Elayne, no matter that she is only 18 and they had been questioning her judgment five minutes ago. With that behavior pattern in mind, once Egwene is put in a white dress by order of the Amyrlin Seat, they automatically see her as a harmless, powerless girl and forget everything else they know to be true. It's also why the rebels accept her authority after she tricks them into declaring war, instead of immediately voting to change the law or deposing her as a lesson to anyone else trying the same thing. So Egwene gets the benefits of not being taken seriously, while not having the same conditions as other novices. Other novices are stuck for life. Their choice is binary - please the Aes Sedai, or try to escape the Tower and spend the rest of your life in hiding. The novices have no other options. In the most oppressive school in the world, you can get good grades and do the tangible steps everyone knows you need to do to graduate. You always know in school exactly where you stand and how far you have to go to get your diploma or degree. The novices don't. A novitiate can last for decades or just three years. All you know is one day they take you to be tested and then you're an Accepted, where the same thing happens. You can be raised to the shawl in a few short years, or wait for decades as Elin Warrel did. No grades, no levels, no marks. Just do your best to please the Tower, kiss as much Aes Sedai ass as you can and hope they decide to promote you. There is no dropping out, the Tower will hunt you down and punish you and if you get kicked out, they will hunt you down and punish you if you channel publicly. Egwene has a fallback no other novice does. As far as the sisters are concerned, novices will eventually fall into line, and there is no need for a training program, just send them to class and let the Mistress of Novices keep an eye on them. If the classes don't work, punish them until they are ready to cooperate. Because they have no choice. They have to fit in or suffer and what's more, their sufferings mean that their ordeal will likely be prolonged. But Egwene can always call for rescue, and by sticking with it, she has the incentive of getting more followers and greater power, so she actually has motivation to resist and more options, so tactics that work on novices don't work on her. But the sisters see a white dress so they can't think of her as anything other than a novice. They don't do what the Seanchan do in the case of Bethamin's recommendations when she sees that Teslyn is faking submission - which is institute a corrective program that every trainer will comply with. Instead of an organization following a program, she is shuffled between a bunch of independent tutors, each with her own standards of acceptable behavior and her own deal-breakers or views on appropriate punishment, which has the effect of ameliorating pressure, rather than reinforcing it. Her success in the Tower is consistent with the established rules of the setting, at least while Jordan was still alive. Sanderson ran off the rails with his shortcuts and impatience to get to the battle scene at the end.
I think a part of the people around her getting dumber has to do with the Forsaken manipulating the rebels thru the Black Ajah to make sure Aes Sedai with strong leadership potential and great chances of becoming Amyrlins like Romanda and Lelaine are not able to gain control of the Hall and upset the Forsaken's plans. Halima, Delana and Sheriam definitely played a great part in making this possible thru misinformation in Salidar, while Alviarin and Mesaana did the same in Tar Valon. The fact that different Forsaken took control of the darkfriends in a revolving door fashion immediately after one dies also didn't help matters. Couple that with Siuan and Leane's efforts to disrupt the two sitters camps' plans by controlling information from eyes and ears as well as pitting one camp against the other thru gossip and you basically have what is known in military parlance as a SNAFU both in the rebel camp and the white tower. Egwene was basically the wildcard that somehow ended up with the prize after the dust had settled.
Reading crappy web novels helped me formulate my own definition for a Mary Sue: A Mary Sue is someone who never really suffers from costs or consequences. So, Egwene would not be a Mary Sue using this definition.
She died. Arguably a result of her getting away with everything before that, which taught her the wrong lessons. She pays a lot of lip service to the idea that she's learning from her mistakes, but keeps making the same ones and it keeps working out for her. So finally, she treats yet another relationship in her life like a one way street for her convenience, only Gawyn balks, goes off and Gawyns and she is suddenly hammered by the loss of her bonded Warder, and then she bites off more than she can chew and dies as she lived - grasping for too much power.
@Moonshield23 Eh, it's how she died. The original died because the plot needed her to, in order to wring maximum drama and praise for her. Egwene's death is foreshadowed and consistent with her portrayal through the series, where she clings to nothing except status, pursues only power or knowledge that will get her power, and adheres to no cause but her own aggrandizement or elevation, and in the end, she is left with a hollow life that is not enough to make her want to keep it. So she throws it away by drawing more and more power to herself.
@@joshuareynolds23 yeah, like when Rand went there on multiple occasions and nothing happened to him, or when Gaul and Perrin went there and spent over a month inside it and literally nothing at all happened to them...
Two things master Nae'Blis didn't take into account. 1. Not only was she basically aristocracy, being the mayors daughter. But she was being trained from childhood to be the next Wisdom. She was going to be a leader even if she'd stayed home. Plus, the Two Rivers is an unusually matriarchal society. So women there were used to being groomed to take charge. 2. The Pattern chose Rand's childhood friends to be his support structure. And "fate" put everything in place for them to be ready for the Last Battle. Anything that looked like Egwene being a Mary Sue was actually The Pattern manipulating the entire world around her to make sure she could do her part to save the world. This is spelled out many times in all 14 books. But few people seem to pick up on that. The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills.
To the 1st point, I'm pretty sure she just started training to become wisdom. I think Rand just hears about it and asks her about it at the beginning on book 1. So it could of been a week to maybe a month or so she was training. As to the aristocracy its a stretch I feel. And doesn't necessarily add experience. Elaine was specifically trained to rule a nation and deal with politics from the start. she didn't just pick things up. 2. I think just because of pattern(or plot demands) she can't be a Mary Sue isn't a good argument
@@fusionev0 as I said, all throughout every single book, everyone talks about The Pattern, and how no one really has much of a choice in life. But even the people who say it immediately forget that and go about their lives. TaVeren, and of course the Forsaken are able to make some of their own choices, but even with them The Pattern changes everything around them to get what it wants anyway. Next time you re-read the books you'll see. Egwene's life just went exactly as The Pattern chose for her. She had zero choice. The Pattern is a frikkin Jerk!
While I was never a real fan-boy for Egwene, she is a competently written character with plenty of personality. Driven to learn yes, but she was chosen as apprentice by Nynaeve and - though both having the spark for channeling might be part of it - both are very smart and clever women so I think Nynaeve saw that in Egwene too. And while training under different masters as it were broadened her mind even more, and she has a very tactical and deductive mindset to begin with. So she is not a Mary Sue no. As for fooling the forsaken and running circles around the Hall... Well, while the Forsaken might have lived for a long time, but I think their power and knowledge can't always be applied in the same way in "modern" Randland. They are also extrememly arrogant, sure of themselves and their power and that became their downfall several times. They also assumed that the "children calling themselves Aes Sedai today" could not learn all they knew, not to MENTION learning things they themselves did not. And I think to a lesser degree that can also be transferred to the older Aes Sedai from the tower, set in their ways. So I am not saying that Egwene did not need and get help along the way, I am just saying it is not as far fetched as it might seem. ;-)
"They are also extrememly arrogant, sure of themselves and their power and that became their downfall several times." funny enough, that should have worked in Mesaana's _favor_ in that last fight, not against her. I have my own headcannon that the Dark One unintentionally set up Egwene for the win. I would put the strength of will of someone ballsy enough to go offer their soul to Shai'tan _in person_ about par with Egwene's stubbornness. I honestly believe that, without being humiliated and _literally assaulted_ by a Myrdraal as punishment a short while before their fight, Mesaana could have equaled or surpassed Egwene's will, but having her been taken down a peg? That might just have been the small edge Egwene needed to win, we _do_ see that it was a horribly close call between them after all.
Suan is the one that guided the other Salidars look for a someone who wasn't in the tower, but was powerful. She is the one that made them come to the realization that Egwene was the only one that fit their needs. That's why it seems like the role was "just for her". That being said, I always thought Suan was aiming the Salidars at Moiraine before learning of her fate and she pivoted to Egwene.
I just finished reading book 6 (I'm on my 3rd time through the series) and one thing that also help her with her leadership and seeing the political undercurrents was all of Moraine's advice given to Rand while they were in the Waste. Egwene was present for most if not all of it, and she explicitly says to herself that she was glad she had paid attention to Moraine, who was indeed an expert at the Game of Houses. Also regarding he defeat of Mesana in the World of Dreams, she technically wasn't the first to do so. Nyneave's capture of Moghedien also occurred much earlier in the series, and while it was through a 'big-brain' play putting the Adam on her, it nevertheless makes Egwene's win over Mesana non-unique.
Her problem, though, is that she later does not get that Rand is literally a GOD. And should have never said "OK. You be in charge of me!" at the end. He should have told her in that scene "Look. One of us has a prophecy. One word and my men level your broken tower. GET back there and help, or go home and risk a loss!" and then turn it all over to MAT not her.
1. Her personality from the start was extremely driven and questioning. 2. She was forced, through an a'dam, to reach her strength and potential much earlier than most Aes Sedai. Not enough to master her abilities, just enough to open them up to her much sooner than normal. 3. She was not indoctrinated in the White Tower for decades with what can and can't be done. There are times where she does feel like a Mary Sue, but people forget about HOW she became so powerful and focus on just how powerful she is. Also, she grew up around ta'veren, so I'm sure the Wheel wove her to have more potential than normal due to this fact.
Not to mention she had an insane desire to learn everything she could from anyone she could, mainly the Wise Ones. Plus, as powerful as she became, it was nothing compared to what people knew how to do in the age of legends. She combined her power, with her force of will, and her determination to be better than those around her.
Yes! And she lives in a time when the Dragon actually gets Reborn, and the Wheel is spurning out alot of extraordinary characters, much more than usual. That is why our young heroes are som much stronger than the older Aes Sedai.
Totally agree, plus with her high initial potential and proximity to three Ta'veren, there's a reason Moraine took her and Nynaeve to the white tower for training after all.
No, she really only wanted power and status. She is very resistant to learning anything she thinks won't help her in that regard and has absolutely no interest or empathy towards others' desires to learn. Look at her attitude towards Elyas the moment he tells her she can't learn to talk to wolves. Look how much interest she retains in her medical studies once she has her sights set in something higher than Wisdom - she actually rebukes Nynaeve for trying to learn from Mother Guenna. When Moiraine is asking about the Aiel and Old Tongue and Prophecies, in a context which could be very important to the world in days to come, Egwene has no patience for it and keeps changing the subject back to herself and her interest. She dismisses what she hears of Moiraine teaching Rand politics, until she stands to gain by such "underhanded" activity, then she hopes she can remember it. Learning, for Egwene, is only a means to an end of greater status and especially power.
totally agree with your thoughts on egwene. people dismiss her drive to learn and succeed, without realizing that having that drive is the hardest part of the path to greatness.
Her political prowess comes from Suane. Suane in a way is still almost incharge by proxy through Egwene for a long time until Egwene unites everyone together, and then everyome is kinda commited to a bigger picture. They have a competant enough leader so they focus on the last battle.
I think growing up close to Rand ,one of the strongest Ta'veren to have ever lived, would have had a strong influence on Egwene and her abilities as it did on many of his friends from the Two Rivers.
That might be true but Rand's and Mat's and Perrin's ta'verens nature did not start acting as wildly as it did until the books began so it wouldn't affect Egwene in any way or the others for that matter.
I like your "black hole sue" expansion. Especially where the other sisters are concerned. By the end of the story, I was wondering how anything ever got done! Good video!
Great vid, Naebs. Always love the content. I’ve always loved Egwene but also questioned her decisions sometimes, never even considered she could be a Mary Sue, except momentarily when SPOILER - - - she reunited the tower, but I wanted it soooo bad I did not care lol. Can’t wait to see you and Lezbi Nerdy on the Dusty Wheel later in the month! (Also the red rod ..... you can probably hear me laughing as I’m close to certain the whole content of North America can hear my cackling)
I always thought that a lot of the rediscoveries related to the power were more related to "it's amazing what one can do when one does not know what one cannot do". And also, "it's amazing what one can learn when one puts aside one's prejudices about wilders." Of note was the "new" healing weaves that were "discovered" due to Nynaeve's natural healing ability. As I recall, there was some "but why are you using *that* in the healing weave?" involved.
Answer: No, she's flawed as hell. Most things don't work out for her, but she's stubborn enough that she eventually gets what she wants. She's unliked, spoiled, egotistical, treated like crap, and eventually dies. But she does complete her goals because she's too stubborn to quit, as a hero of the horn should be.
Before I watch, I'll go ahead and answer: She's not a Mary Sue. The Pattern saw her talent, gave her a crash course in leadership, then used her up, then threw her away. Huge difference.
Besides being from The Two Rivers where folks are mostly pretty hard working, she was also apprentice to Nynaeve who wouldn't tolerate any slacking whatsoever.
@@NaeBlis oh, I did. I just think Mat deserves his own deep dive. To me, ta'veren is just Mary Sue-ness in elemental form. I don't think Perrin is a Mary Sue at all though, and Rand could possibly be considered one, but Mat fits the criteria better than anyone. His luck and his Finn memories and his overall lack of maturity are very Mary Sue to me. And of course, 'everybody loves Mat'. He even gets a cool eyepatch, a hallmark of the male Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
@@NottyAries Is she really competent? Because, really, other people tend to do much better than she, and friendship blinders means she doesn't get called out for a lot of stuff by the characters, and meanwhile, she has no problem aggrandizing herself and tearing down her friends in her own PoV. Even her accomplishments and achievements tend to get inflated by fans and her own perspective. She was picked as Amyrlin because she was disposable, she got essential help taking power herself, from a disgruntled and marginalized individual with a unique insider-access knowledge base, who intended to manipulate her, but was compromised ahead of time by Egwene's friends. Her channeling discovery involved the most outside assistance, with Elayne reverse engineering ter'angreal on her own, Nynaeve doing what the Age of Legends believed impossible, and Egwene rediscovering Traveling by basically asking a couple different people "how do you do that?" Before she goes to Salidar, Egwene is basically dead weight, whose impact on the plot comes mainly through how more important characters act in regard to her. And her story in Salidar has little to do with the major plot overall, beyond turning Nynaeve & Elayne loose to do their thing. Most characters are much smarter than she as well. Thom, Lan, Elaida, Mat and the Wise Ones all instantly understand the reality of her elevation to the Amyrlin Seat, that it's bullshit, that no one really listens to her, that she is just a figurehead. Yet, Egwene, the morning after her raising, is annoyed that she has not been left with pen & paper to write decrees, and is constantly furious that no one is listening to an 18 year old with practically no useful or relevant knowledge.
@anonymous opinions I disagree. Perrin is a wolfbrother. He is able to communicate with wolves. That gives him some ability to access to the World of Dreams. Yet he still needed to practice/learn. Hopper taught him.. Elayas is able to enter the World of Dreams but is not as skilled as Perrin. He says he is not as knowledge as Perrin. Egwene is a Dreamer. But she needed teaching from the Aiel Dreamwalkers to allow her to master the World of Dreams.
I never thought of her as Mary Sue. The closest she cake was as Amyrlin. Even with training from Aiel and Siuan, there were times where it seemed extreme. However, even if there were several Mary Sues and Gary Stus in this story, there’s an in universe explanation. The wheel is spinning these people out in preparation for the last battle.
I just don't see how people can't see that she went through just as much as Rand in this series, and had just as important a part, yet call her a Mary Sue. Simply because of her personality. It is her personality and will, that allows her to survive everything she went through. I must give you a standing ovation on the Michael Jordan comparison. I never thought of that, but you are right on. She used her force of will to break through barriers, and bend people to her point of view, in order to win the final battle. Great video, brother! For your community shout outs...check out ravenbellebooks page on TH-cam. Great first time read through page :)
I have to disagree, not with her not being a Mary Sue, but with the idea that she went through just as much as Rand. Rand was tortured, crippled, manipulated, and struggling with insanity, PTSD, and in some ways depression. Yes, Egwene does go through some of that stuff, but Rand gets the hard end I it throughout the series. Also, I don’t agree with the idea that she played as important a role in the last battle as Rand. She did have an important role, but his battle was the core pillar of the battle, and if he had lost then Egwene’s sacrifice would have meant nothing as the Dark One would have either wiped out the world or changed it completely and utterly.
I mean I don't think she's a full on Mary Sue but I always thought the events surrounding her captivity in the tower were largely...convenient. Still love that part but it does nag at me and prompts some minor eye rolls. Like...no one has anything better to do other than to realize how amazing Egwene is? lol Another great video Nae'Blis!!
They are all walking on tip toes from the huge divisions in the tower- then they see someone standing up to Elida like none of them had the courage to do. They started to see her as Aes Sedia in the way she carried herself in the tower. Then factor in that the Aes Sedia power structure favours those who have more power- she naturally get listened to (its mentioned in like book 7 or something that they do that naturally). Then factor in that the rebel Aes Sedia are still following her orders in the negotiations, gives her more clout. She also shows her aptitude to these individuals, it is fast- but its not like she walks in and everyone pledges allegiance
Almost more than any other character, Egwenes foundation is explained. There is a reason for every success and failure. Her personality is explained as early as the prologue chapter of the Eye of the World. Her fate as Amyrlin is foreshadowed in that book as well, and Robert Jordan takes great care to explain how a girl could become the Amyrlin, and then become a great Amyrlin. And if anyone is overpowered it's my favorite Gary Stu of all time, Mat. He literally has luck as a superpower, and becomes the greatest general of the age by chance. All his Power is not earned through hard work, it just is. But it also works in the context of the story.
She also spent more time around ta'veren then anyone else. Jordan did say that people who spend a lot of time around ta'veren get affected by them more.
I've never thought that Egwene was a Mary Sue. She was irritating near the beginning of the series, but I started liking her a lot once she started learning how to use her powers. I thought she was a really competent character that people had a tendency to underestimate despite her obvious strength. I think her being underestimated could solidly explain some of the bumbling by Romanda and Lelaine. As for Elaida, pretty sure she was corrupted by Padan Fain. Considering that she already had an over-inflated opinion of herself, I'm sure it didn't take much time with him to send her into that bizarre negative spiral in the latter half of the series.
That is an excellent point about Fain's influence on Elaida. Although I don't think Elaida would have been a good Amrylin Seat with Fain's taint, she did have some brains. She would not have been such egotistical maniac who lost all political sense.
Correction 1. Egwene was not trained by the Seanchan at her peak strength. She was forced during her time with them yes (and a rather short time too), but even still was not at her peak strength until later in the series and even then I'm not sure she reached close to her peak until she again was forced using Vora's Sa'angreal during the defense of the White Tower, which is however ironic, a moment where she literally pushed herself to near death exhaustion.
It's more than a little hard to talk about any character being a Mary Sue in The Wheel of Time when the world is literally built from the bones up to be a plot device. The phrase 'The wheel weaves as the wheel wills' gets uttered any time the plot or a character does something odd. Develop some new Talent or power? It's the wheel. Accidentally become a great general/ruler/politician? Wheel weaving again. Literally have people change their mind just because you want them to? Ta'veren! The concept that the wheel is pulling out all of these exceptionally gifted individuals in a time of crisis and conflict is central to the plot, I would argue either they're all Mary Sues or none of them are.
@Travis Fitch What? Torture by Seanchan, beatings by Aes Sedai and death in the end doesnt count as suffering?(and i think i probably forgot a few things)
@Travis Fitch I don't know what books you have read but Egwene is not a Mary Sue. And she escapes because her friends bust her out. Getting rescued does not make one a Mary Sue. Sure Rand probably suffered the most, but besides Rand I can't see another main character get as consistently punished as she was. You are delusional if you claim her story was the easy street of a Mary Sue.
Her learning of channeling and thinking as an Aes Sedai (i.e. that balefire is this special weave that is dangerous) means it never occurred to her that she can control a weave of balefire could be controlled by a dreamer
Also need to remember that for hundreds of years the Black Ajah targeted powerful channellers and those with talents. Egwene not being in the White Tower for periods of time allowed her to escape being done away with a become what many might have been before her.
Isn't it also implied later on that black ahja members among the rebels (like shiriam) influence the selection of Egweyne as armorlyn precisely because they think it's a bad choice that will either cause further infighting or a large chunk of the rebels being led by what they believe to be an incompetent? Especially with shiriam as the keeper to such a figurehead.
Personally I’ve always thought that the main characters are like “lesser Ta’veren.” Each one of them was a master in their respective field, extremely capable, and constantly played key rolls in the fight against the dark one. My theory is the pattern nudges them all to be the heroes needed to save the world, and gives them a little bit of plot power.
Thank you for taking the time to define what a Mary Sue actually is. I find that Mary Sue, like so many other terms had been thrown around so much that it has lost all meaning. And few used it properly to begin with.
Spoilery! Here's why Egwene might not be a Mary Sue. 1. She was forced. On her own and by the Seanchan. 2. During her time with the Seanchan she learned things that Aes Sedai wouldn't at the very least teach her until she had spent much much more time than she did at either Tower. 3.. She is or was a rather driven woman. So driven, I like to think that if it wasn't for the Seanchan she likely would have been a most likely to burn herself out. 4. Her time with the Aiel gave her an edge that no one but Cadsuane had. By the time she left them she was well beyond your average Aes Sedai. Combined with her Seanchan training, however short that time was l, she was an animal. 6. She was quite the intelligent woman. This was conveyed early in the series, and she didn't much tolerate idiocy from her friends. Between her drive to learn and improve and her innate intelligence, she was literally born to lead. Mary Suish? Maybe, buy Jordan set her up by circumstance. It was her friends Ta'veren nature that saved her time and again early on. Later on, when the Rebel Tower gave her actual power to influence, her intelligence and guile kept her ahead of the pack. My only real problem with Egwene was not her incredulous progress, super woman wise, it was her arrogance. She was easily the most arrogant of all the main characters. She was so confident in her intellect she thought she knew better than everyone. And I mean everyone. She was single handedly responsible for everyone's hate of Gawayn. And incredulously, he was actually right most of the time. He just had a bad habit of getting there in a rather obtuse way. She on the other hand almost got herself killed multiple times despite advise to the contrary of whatever she thought was right. The only main character who surpassed her in this regard was Elaine. Anyways, Im rambling. My two cents.
I think a lot of people severely undervalue the kinds of training she received throughout the story. The Aes Sedai purposely teach their students very slowly and methodically to minimize the danger to them, but the Aiel tend to be far less restrictive, willing to teach students as fast as they think they can handle, and the Seanchan literally force their channelers to learn everything as fast as possible. Beyond that though, all 3 channelers have different philosophies and styles of channeling. The Aes Sedai tend to learn channeling as much for academic purposes as to actually use it, so while they may be very knowledgeable in the power and develop very fine control, they also tend to be somewhat wasteful and uncreative in its use. They learn mostly by rote, and frown upon experimentation. The Aiel tend to use the power in more practical ways, allowing for creativity as long as the job gets done, and minimizing the effort expended. At one point, the Aiel note that the Aes Sedai have a tendency to wave their hands around when channeling, such as making a throwing motion in order to fling a fireball, when no movement at all is actually necessary. That also allows them to be more covert in their channeling. The Aiel also seem to be better multitaskers when channeling, as they teach their students how to control many flows at once by deconstructing weaves, something that also works into their covert angle since deconstructed weaves leave no residue. The Seanchan focus their channeling on power and war. They don't seem all that interested in fine control or actual theory, but rather on raw power. They also specialize in destructive weaves, ones that the Aes Sedai would likely never teach or even want to learn. Learning from all 3 schools of channeling would doubtless allow someone to perform feats that strict adherents to just one school would find difficult to comprehend.
Yeah she has a bit of mary sue in her, but she makes mistakes, has enemies, Has a looot of support from older and more experienced teachers/characters etc. Also the whole Pattern thing... she certainly has moments but I think overall it's built well into the story
honestly i find alot of the characters in wheel of time to feel a little mary sue. They all progress so fast in the span of like 3 years that it dwarfs the accomplishments of anyone remotely competent that exists in the world currently. Its like all the main cast we follow are people of prophecy not just rand. Its still awesome and i enjoy everyone except elayne.
Way late to this, but another solid point to Egwene being made Amerlyn is covered by Elida herself. They wanted someone expendable who was unlikely to be executed/stilled. The Hall and Keeper would likely have gotten penance, but in the name of unity, it was unlikely anything else would happen to them. They needed someone they could control AND who was going to be immune to Elida's punishment (mostly) should the tower reunite and Elida win.
I feel like the original mary sue story also revealed another perfect analogy for mary sue stories. I feel like we skipped the fact that Kirk's character was assassinated to serve the self insert character as he way out of character asked a 15 year old to go to bed with him. Kinda reminds ya of Luke Skywalker trying to kill his nephew for narrative reasons in TLJ doesn't it?
She's a Betty Sue - the pretty hometown girl who achieves it all, but learns from her mistakes (eventually); doesn't marry the hometown boy she's 'supposed to marry,' and breaks free of her small town personna to reach a success she never even dreamed of.
Egwene reminds me or feels to me like Arjuna of Mahabharata Epic of my country India. The guy was super-competitive and excelled at everything he put his mind to. Excellence was a habit to him. He wanted to be the Best and had natural hunger for Knowledge. He absorbed all the learning from His Teacher Drona and became his favourite pupil above even Drona's own son Ashvatthama. Arjuna was a natural at Archery and was gifted with this Hunger to learn. So similar to our Egwene
I agree that she isn't, though she will be a lot more believable in the adaptation if the series lasts for 10 years, rather than 3. A lot of the problems I have with the books stems from putting so many books into the span of 3 years. So, in a way, all of those problems dissappear if they do that. And I really don't see why they wouldn't.
Good point about Egwenes sudden political adeptness, everyone forgets or overlooks the fact that she had BOTH Suiane and Leanne tutoring her. Because of their loss of status they were both allowed to be around her pretty much 24/7 and the whole time they're guiding her on how to handle the aes sedai.
I actually would have loved to see how RJ would have written Egwene more than any other character. Not that Brandon did a bad job with wrapping things up, but he did also have a wrap things up task ahead of him. Anyway, I definitely don't find her to be a Mary Sue. Even with Rand's failings, I think he is more a Mary Sue than she is, if you actually want to find one in WoT, and the series has a cast where typically each major cast member has talents that stand out. It's also set against the backdrop of a very fate-driven world.
Probably the closest to a Mary Sue out of all the characters, that probably is the reason why the ta'veren theory is so popular since it can lessen some of those criticisms but that theory never made sense to me, she's surrounded by Aes Sedai for the whole series, who easily identify ta'veren and some even have talents that let them identify them at a glance, so it doesn't make sense for her to be ta'veren and not know about it.
Egwene is a bit of a Mary Sue, but its mainly in her political abilities, most of the others can be explained away. but she is not the only one to have Mary Sue/Gary Stu issues in the series, she just gets alot of notice because of how mange pages we get of her showing off her abilities. Others that could be mentionsed is Rand (leadership abilities), Perrin (battle abilities) Mat (luck) Gawyn/Galad (sword abilities) all of these have other abilites that might seem to fit, but do not, because they are more explained in the lore, like how ability with the one power makes you able to learn by instinct or Perrin being a smith for strengt or Mat getting the memories of others for battle, these are not Mary/Gary senarios, they are earned in some way. Perrin though, suddenly just know how to lead armies without any training, Egwene can suddenly dominate people with hundred og years of political experience and Gawyn and Galad are masters of the sword depite their young age and only having done sparing and no real to the death battles (Galad could be defended as i is acutall nearer 30 than 20.)
She is still my least favorite character because she is annoying and sexist towards men. I feel that she believes she is superior to everyone. She manipulates everyone for her benefit or the benefit of the white tower. Overall, I don't like those kind of people in life so I don't like her character.
The Aiel Wise Ones were very political. Just a different type of politics than Wetlands and White Tower are used to. Also, she listened closely to Moiraine's politics and game of thrones lectures she gave Rand.
15:31 You forget, the dark one is touching the Pattern. Ambition, is one of his weapons. Both factions want Power, over the rest. Not to lead, but to have their own way. Their reasoning faculties are clouded. Look at Elaida, you think after the coup she pulled, she would be dumb enough to fracture her own aja? She's old enough to know better. Yet,she behaves like a spoiled teenager. Egwene, is not after Power, she is half coerced to the role. Of course, once she's in charge, she becomes mule headed and sentimental, risking herself,for nothing. Its like breathing low oxy air. It s sapping your mind, but it takes time. Egwene is fresh to the rebel camp, so she 's a bit sharper than the rest, but eventually, she succumbs to. Its like the air around Tar Valon is poisoned or something.
Rand: listens to Elayne in between kisses for a few days, allows Moiraine to council him for about two weeks, king of many nations. People: that makes sense. Egwene: instructed by literally the only Aiel who dabble in politics, instructed by the last Amerlyn Seat for many _months,_ rules one organization. People: _unbelievable, HOW?_ Honestly, though Egwene is _far_ from my favorite, I only think little of her as a person; as a character, she was fantastic... And, Mary Sue? Bitch please, Mat is much more of a Mary Sue than her and he doesn't come close to being one xD It's a story about fate, and heroes rising to the occasion, taking power and defeating the great evil. _Of course_ they are all gonna sound and look a bit crazily adept, that is _literally_ the point of the story. Rand becomes a master of the blade in half a year or less, Nynaeve heals everything, Mat is an untouchable _god,_ Perrin lucks into being king, and Egwene manages to be a good Amerlyn. That's what the story was _for,_ showing how more human people would behave if destiny suddenly called them to greatness.
If she is, then so is every magic user jn every magic system that requires one to be born with a certain ability. Also, she trains for like 6 books before being really powerful. She also misses the characteristic of being selfless, she clearly has a personality and wants selfish things like love and power.
@Travis Fitch Her not being in the tower is the point. The Aes Sedai are arrogant fools that make the Novices and Accepted crawl. Egwene being out in teh "real world" means she has to develop much faster to survive, beginning with her captivity under the Seanchan starting her on a path to becoming much more talented than Aes Sedai at destructive weaves since she wasn't bound by the Three Oaths at the time. Egwene's biggest mistake isn't that either. It's having an amazing arc in the White Tower captivity where she spends two books demosntrating why the Aes Sedai are such arrogant entitled children and inferior in maturity and willpower to the Aiel Wise Ones in every way, then as soon as she becomes Amyrlin she becomes exactly like them.
I thought 1 of the weakest part of the series was how RJ explained how the heroes developed. I always found it very unbelielivable how badly the Forsaken failed against Rand. I thought that it was highly unrealistic. Especially at the start. From what we know of Demandred for example, when he found out that Rand basically wasn't Lews Therin, he would've launched himself against him. This is even described in the books but he never does. What Egwene does again is not just her but most of the heroes with the exception of Mat. Mat basically isn't Mat after his memories. He basically goes from competent staff wielder/rogue/scoundrel/farm boy to the greatest military commander in history. His arc makes sense and all his journey makes sense. Same with Perrin. His abilities make sense. Egwene/Nynaeve/Rand. Their arcs make no sense. Abilities make no sense in that world. How is it from 1 village u get the greatest magic wielders and 3 tave'ren is just ridiculous. In a realistic world, Rand would've lost against Ishamael in Falme. In EoTW, he does that assistance so it makes sense. Every other Forsaken fight even with assistance makes no sense even with all their arrogance. Arrogance is 1 thing. But after you been alive so many years and survived the War of Power, you wouldn't make mistakes like the Forsaken did against 'so called Aes Sedai'.
I remember back when those books first came out there were LOADS of comments on message boards stating that Egwene was totally a Mary Sue... which at the time I didn't even know what that was, but it's nice to have a good, in-depth representation as to why she isn't. Actually, my wife loves Egwene, at least from Eye of the World (which is where she is at), and refers to her as "the little bucket carrier that could".
What's interesting is that I always got the impression that she should also have been considered a ta'veren and often wondered why she was not. It would seem that only men in the WOT universe can be considered ta'veren, but she definitely seems to fit the same requirements. She is often pulled into things without her direct effort, and things will happen for her that had she not been ta'veren would not have happened.
If I had to pick a Mary Sue from WOT it would be Mat, granted he isn’t but I think he is the closest candidate. Egwene starts learning with Moiriane, one of the most powerful Aes Sedai of her time, is addicted to channeling in the beginning and practiced constantly. At the tower she was given a lot of attention because of her ability, then grew real fast when she was captured and tortured by the Seanchan. Her also getting tasked with hunting the Black Ajah gave her and her ability a sense of urgency to advance. I know this only covers the first four books but it sets her up to continue to advance at a lighting pace mentally and physically throughout the series. Also the wise ones really helped her grow a solid pair of balls in her dreamer training. She was set after going through that, lol.
I think she should have had more driving her to be so great, Rand had all his responsibility, and the weight of needing to perform well, and he had to do it, she went from not even trying to, suddenly became the leader of the Aes sedai (bad spelling) and started to perform outstandingly as a leader, with no former experience.
My first thought was yes she is, but after reading the comments for a while I see that she is not my only complaint was her power in the end was a little OP.
To me, when I hear someone's a Mary Sue, I think- Goody-goody, Teacher's Pet, Miss perfect, (maybe stuck-up, think she's better than u), tattle tale, Self-important,.. Naive, Sheltered, parents always told her she's a princess..... That's what comes to mind for me.
Great video Nae'blis. I love it 3000. I have never seen Egwene as a Mary Sue. I would say that the Aes Sedai surely are strong and politically proficient, but they, like the White Cloaks, are also super strict to their point of view and their traditional ways of doing things. Enter Egwene (with a little help from friends like Siuan) like a mad scientist and puts everything in disorder. And you know, it is the mad scientist that thinks outside the box and see things differently to the old guys, the centuries older scientists, that wins the Nobel Prize. Not the older ones that did it the same way over and over... Heck, if there is any Mary Sue in the series, go search for Rand or Perrin instead!
She summoned a Trolloc that sexually assaulted and traumatized Nyneave just so she could protect herself from the wise ones whom she was lying to. Egwene may have been on the good side but she was not a good person.
She is frequently written as making mistakes and being intentionally unlikeable. I think that’s more key to her not being a Mary Sue than her speedrunning powerups/status.
I like the term black hole character. More fitting for her. Mary sue never really fit but things she does needs a strong boost from something. Plot armor, light, creator, or the flying spaghetti monster who knows.
I think Egwene's political abilities are explained by a couple of things. Egwene had leadership abilities before she came to the tower. Both of her parents were good leaders. She had also been training as a Wisdom, and a Wisdom was really more about leadership than anything else. Moiraine also taught her before arriving in the tower, and some of those lessons involved the politics of the tower. But the Wise Ones were a huge influence. I think she gains power by exploiting the weaknesses of the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai and everyone else thought they were masters of political intrigue. But the truth was they were powerful because they scared people with their power and they were rich. Their most important flaw was that they were blind to their own weaknesses. They were rife with divisions. Most Aes Sedai thought she was the only one who saw the truth. Egwene did not spend that much time in the tower before she was raised, and much of the time she did spend in the tower she was treated as a run-away and an outsider. Instead of getting sucked into believing the myths, she saw the true nature of Tower politics. The only Aes Sedai who really saw the problems with the Tower were Moirain, Siuan, and Cadsuane. Moirain herself had spent so little time in the tower that she tended to see the politics from the perspective of an outsider. Siuan seemed to have a natural understanding, possibly based in part on her secret mission to find and support the Dragon Reborn. Egwene was trained by two of those three. So I think Egwene was good because she saw the Tower politics for what it was. She knew the politics well enough to exploit it, but she did not buy the myths of Aes Sedai political prowess. She had the lessons the Wise Ones taught her. I viewed her manipulations as simply applying what she learned in the Waste to manipulating the Aes Sedai. On your next reread watch Egwene's training by the Wise Ones. You see forshadowing of tricks and strategies she will use among the Aes Sedai in the later books.
Egwene being allowed to roam around in the White Tower isn't abnormal, since Elaida just wants people to see her as a mere novice. She isn't even formally recognised as an Aes Sedai. To not allow her to take on novice duties would be recognising her as an Amyril, which Elaida would never do. Also, Egwene observed and pondered over Moiraine's actions a lot, especially in the Waste. She discusses her conclusions with her, leading to gaining Moiraine's respect. Remember: Moiraine was born Cairhairen and then became Aes Sedai. Everyone someone performs a weave that Egwene doesn't know, she ponders over it. This happens as early as when she heads to the white tower along with Nynaeve and gets put down by the then Amyril. Her ability to learn wasn't a surprise at all. The political intrigue though... Well, it's pretty obvious that Robert Jordan wasn't good with that. He just couldn't construct grand political stories, and I'm assuming that he couldn't flesh this out well enough.
I think that one of the reasons that Egwene and Nyneve seemed to learn everything abnormally fast is because they weren't in the Tower long enough to be brainwashed into believing that it was impossible to do the things that they ended up doing.
good point, they also point out the dangers of forcing learning of the one power multiple times, they take huge risks to learn ang grow so fast
And that was the point. George Carlin had a great dialogue about the concept. He is driving along a country hwy and he looks over and he sees a kid apparently riding his bike in mid air. He figures out the kid is actually riding along the top of a stone wall. Carlin says then " and you know what? Somebody is gonna f-up and tell the kid about gravity and he'll never be able to do it again." RJ was pointin g out that the limitations were artificial.
@@cloudrunner7 ... leave it to GC to cut to the chase!
yes the white tower is a cult
great point
Elaida is such a Karen
Dang this is facs
Cadsuane would also like to speak to your manager.
@@jaredadams8069 No, Cadsuane would make you see by herself what you did wrong and find a way to make you regret it and do the best you can if you see her again. Cadsuane does not need some lowly manager to handle her problems.
And I wouldn't call Elaida a Karen either, because she, too, handles her own shit. Neither one is a "whine to other people", "get bent out of shape over petty bullshit" type. Demira, on the other hand... total Karen. I think Romanda and Lelaine are somewhat Karenish as well.
Nah, I'd say Sevanna takes the cake when it comes to being a Karen.
Elaida? All the Aes Sedai, including Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne.
Re: rediscovering travelling, Aviendha did it first unconsciously as well, which should be more unlikely, except she is never able to repeat the weave again and has trouble learning the other weave later on. Which leads to one of the biggest points the book is trying to make, which is that the White Tower is so set in its own ways and riddled with division that it actually holds back its own progress. Much of what the Super Girls are able to do is because they question tower doctrine and are willing to keep trying, while the people who manage to become Aes Sedai are often promoted because they aren't willing to make waves and don't question leadership.
Another theme the book explores with the kin, the wise ones, and the sea folk. Every group has channeling techniques basically unheard of to the white tower because of their different philosophies and values.
Never once thought of her as a Mary Sue. The book is very detailed about how she learns her powers, so she doesn't just gain them with no effort or sacrifice. Also, her choices have real consequences, she screws up a number of times, another indication she's not a Mary Sue.
my only real complaint about her is how her unbridled arrogance never really gets punished, she assumes she'll be the best, she becomes the best, and while she has some moments of failures it never really seems to me that she repents that arrogance. With rand, the male counterpart to egwene in the story, he experiences the catharsis of realizing his arrogance and repenting from it, with egwene she just learns how to act humble when it's convenient but she never actually gets humbled from the height of her power like rand does, and I was really hoping that would happen. Even her greatest points of failure are cushioned by everyone around her already understanding what she's going through as a leader and she always has a support structure around her to help her through. Rand gets damn near abandoned by half his support structure and pushes the rest away, experiencing the resulting decline in his mental state in a very real and well written way, eventually realizing both how selfish he's been and how much he needs to chill out through personal reflection on what's happened to him. It seems like egwene gets emotionally carried through a lot of the narrative.
@@Cassiuswasright While what you say is all true, there are two points - she DOES keep acting arrogant and as if consequences can't happen to her, and it eventually catches up to her. The other is that in reality, some people DO get away with everything and fail upwards all the time. Even when Egwene gets her husband and warder killed and destroys herself overreaching, she's probably going down in history as a hero, just like Logain will go on to glory he dies not seem to have earned at the Last Battle. It's part of that theme of how stories change and as Thom says Rand will be lucky if the next Age gets his name right.
She is a Mary Sue.. just like Rey in star wars
@@Gunleaver Egwene didn't get her Warder/Husband killed. He did that to himself by actively not listening to her and remaining near as a Warder should.
Nor does it "catch up" with her. In her significantly emotional state, having just lost Gawyn, she has the epiphany of creating a BRAND NEW WEAVE mid fight, before burning herself out because it took the remainder of her power and then some, giving her a heroic send off.
It "catching up" to her would be paying a price for her arrogance, but she never did.
Egwene towards the end 100% becomes a Mary Sue, which is hilarious considering her Warder/Husband was a Gary Sue.
My two least favorite characters in the series as well, go figure.
@@Th1sUsernameIsNotTaken Heroic send-off, yes, but it's also tied into what came before. She was willing to give up her life to make the weave succeed, because her judgment was compromised by the breaking of the warder bond. It's not explicit, but then Sanderson really dropped the ball on accurately depicting the warder bonds in action.
Another way her death was the result of her characterization was her belief that she was entitled to be the best and do anything her friends did. And then Perrin showed her up by defeating balefire, and using T'A'R skills, which is supposed to be HER thing, so when she saw a chance to fix the balefire damage, she could not resist the chance to one-up Perrin in that manner. Furthermore, the heroism of her death is absolutely not earned by the story. With Gawyn's death, she had incentive to want the pain to stop, and less interest in going on with life, and it's hard to believe that the rare & minor uses of balefire we saw in the series was enough to start tearing apart the Pattern to create real danger, when in the War of the Shadow, it took entire cities being erased to have that effect.
She also paid a price, because her arrogance in trying too hard to control Gawyn and the terms of the relationship compromised her authority over him. She was so dead-set on trying to make him kneel that when he proved right and saved her from the Seanchan assassins, in his mind it justified his resistance to her, and proved to him that he was right to go off on his own and do what he thought best.
And, too, the whole thing where he resented Rand overstepping his rank, and was jealous of Rand's position as the hero, completely came out of nowhere. There is not the slightest indication of it throughout the books, even after he believes that Rand killed his mother. Then, after spending some time with Egwene, who ABSOLUTELY resents Rand's rank, power and status as the most important person wrt Tarmon Gaidon, Gawyn is suddenly whining about this up-jumped shepherd casting down thrones. Egwene was the one who gave him all these ideas about Rand, and made him jealous, which is the apparent motivation for him to take up Demandred's challenge in Rand's place.
???? If Egwene is a Mary Sue, almost everyone in WoT is. She's a force of nature, but she is warped more by the story than the other way around. Born of an unglamorous backstory, not the object of the 3 main characters' affection, not one of the chosen Ta'veren. Taken prisoner and used as a tool in war, used as a puppet and a prop in politics - she doesn't break under the pressure is all, she rises to it. Without the pressure, she'd never have done squat.
Well see, this has always been my main complaint with the books, they all DO seem like mary sue characters to me, and I blame RJ for having a brilliant story idea and world but not being able to write unique characters--particularly women. They are so interchangeable. I love the books but some moments are completely insufferable.
@@Rye_Toast interchangeable characters? Haha it the best series ever for their lack of interchangeability. Delete any name from any chapter, you still know who’s head you’re in. The other part about Mary Sues yes all the Boys lean quite hard in that direction.
That Egwene is a good leader can also be explained by her parents. Brandelwyn is the mayor of Two Rivers and the head of Village Council and Marin is part of the Women's circle, it would not be unbelievable that Egwene has been in the same room as their meetings have been and learned some of it, maybe not consciously but subliminally.
She was training to be Wisdom to which is basically the female mayor. So that should've involved some politics as well.
Great points about the people around Egwene getting dumber rather than Egwene just getting away with everything. Great video as always! Awesome insight!
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Honestly, to me that only felt like growing up and realising the adults around you are not as perfect as they seemed as a child. Just because someone is smart doesn't mean they aren't stupid as well...
That was Brandon Sanderson's writing. Egwene did not have miraculous success in the Tower until he took over. As of the chapter Jordan wrote with her in the Tower, all she had done was win over the novices.
And yes, a lot of her success is due to her running free in the Tower, but that's because of the well-established Aes Sedai trait of being trained to accept the White Tower categories of things, even if it makes no sense. Pevara and Seaine are BFF for a decade, but they stop being friends, because their Ajahs tell them to. Faile lists Aes Sedai who betrayed their own families, or married & bore children to a hated husband, because the Tower told her to. When Elayne makes the sisters in Ebou Dar accept that she is a legit Aes Sedai they IMMEDIATELY flip from treating her like a juvenile delinquent to obeying her orders, because that's what you do for a legit sister as strong as Elayne, no matter that she is only 18 and they had been questioning her judgment five minutes ago.
With that behavior pattern in mind, once Egwene is put in a white dress by order of the Amyrlin Seat, they automatically see her as a harmless, powerless girl and forget everything else they know to be true. It's also why the rebels accept her authority after she tricks them into declaring war, instead of immediately voting to change the law or deposing her as a lesson to anyone else trying the same thing. So Egwene gets the benefits of not being taken seriously, while not having the same conditions as other novices. Other novices are stuck for life. Their choice is binary - please the Aes Sedai, or try to escape the Tower and spend the rest of your life in hiding. The novices have no other options. In the most oppressive school in the world, you can get good grades and do the tangible steps everyone knows you need to do to graduate. You always know in school exactly where you stand and how far you have to go to get your diploma or degree. The novices don't. A novitiate can last for decades or just three years. All you know is one day they take you to be tested and then you're an Accepted, where the same thing happens. You can be raised to the shawl in a few short years, or wait for decades as Elin Warrel did. No grades, no levels, no marks. Just do your best to please the Tower, kiss as much Aes Sedai ass as you can and hope they decide to promote you. There is no dropping out, the Tower will hunt you down and punish you and if you get kicked out, they will hunt you down and punish you if you channel publicly. Egwene has a fallback no other novice does. As far as the sisters are concerned, novices will eventually fall into line, and there is no need for a training program, just send them to class and let the Mistress of Novices keep an eye on them. If the classes don't work, punish them until they are ready to cooperate. Because they have no choice. They have to fit in or suffer and what's more, their sufferings mean that their ordeal will likely be prolonged. But Egwene can always call for rescue, and by sticking with it, she has the incentive of getting more followers and greater power, so she actually has motivation to resist and more options, so tactics that work on novices don't work on her. But the sisters see a white dress so they can't think of her as anything other than a novice. They don't do what the Seanchan do in the case of Bethamin's recommendations when she sees that Teslyn is faking submission - which is institute a corrective program that every trainer will comply with. Instead of an organization following a program, she is shuffled between a bunch of independent tutors, each with her own standards of acceptable behavior and her own deal-breakers or views on appropriate punishment, which has the effect of ameliorating pressure, rather than reinforcing it.
Her success in the Tower is consistent with the established rules of the setting, at least while Jordan was still alive. Sanderson ran off the rails with his shortcuts and impatience to get to the battle scene at the end.
I think a part of the people around her getting dumber has to do with the Forsaken manipulating the rebels thru the Black Ajah to make sure Aes Sedai with strong leadership potential and great chances of becoming Amyrlins like Romanda and Lelaine are not able to gain control of the Hall and upset the Forsaken's plans. Halima, Delana and Sheriam definitely played a great part in making this possible thru misinformation in Salidar, while Alviarin and Mesaana did the same in Tar Valon. The fact that different Forsaken took control of the darkfriends in a revolving door fashion immediately after one dies also didn't help matters. Couple that with Siuan and Leane's efforts to disrupt the two sitters camps' plans by controlling information from eyes and ears as well as pitting one camp against the other thru gossip and you basically have what is known in military parlance as a SNAFU both in the rebel camp and the white tower. Egwene was basically the wildcard that somehow ended up with the prize after the dust had settled.
Reading crappy web novels helped me formulate my own definition for a Mary Sue: A Mary Sue is someone who never really suffers from costs or consequences. So, Egwene would not be a Mary Sue using this definition.
She died. Arguably a result of her getting away with everything before that, which taught her the wrong lessons. She pays a lot of lip service to the idea that she's learning from her mistakes, but keeps making the same ones and it keeps working out for her. So finally, she treats yet another relationship in her life like a one way street for her convenience, only Gawyn balks, goes off and Gawyns and she is suddenly hammered by the loss of her bonded Warder, and then she bites off more than she can chew and dies as she lived - grasping for too much power.
@Moonshield23 Eh, it's how she died. The original died because the plot needed her to, in order to wring maximum drama and praise for her. Egwene's death is foreshadowed and consistent with her portrayal through the series, where she clings to nothing except status, pursues only power or knowledge that will get her power, and adheres to no cause but her own aggrandizement or elevation, and in the end, she is left with a hollow life that is not enough to make her want to keep it. So she throws it away by drawing more and more power to herself.
@@Gunleaver Well put. That is precisely how I felt about her character.
You mean like traveling the world of dreams in the flesh even though its supposed to take something from you?
@@joshuareynolds23 yeah, like when Rand went there on multiple occasions and nothing happened to him, or when Gaul and Perrin went there and spent over a month inside it and literally nothing at all happened to them...
Two things master Nae'Blis didn't take into account.
1. Not only was she basically aristocracy, being the mayors daughter. But she was being trained from childhood to be the next Wisdom. She was going to be a leader even if she'd stayed home. Plus, the Two Rivers is an unusually matriarchal society. So women there were used to being groomed to take charge.
2. The Pattern chose Rand's childhood friends to be his support structure. And "fate" put everything in place for them to be ready for the Last Battle. Anything that looked like Egwene being a Mary Sue was actually The Pattern manipulating the entire world around her to make sure she could do her part to save the world.
This is spelled out many times in all 14 books. But few people seem to pick up on that.
The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills.
To the 1st point, I'm pretty sure she just started training to become wisdom. I think Rand just hears about it and asks her about it at the beginning on book 1. So it could of been a week to maybe a month or so she was training.
As to the aristocracy its a stretch I feel. And doesn't necessarily add experience.
Elaine was specifically trained to rule a nation and deal with politics from the start. she didn't just pick things up.
2. I think just because of pattern(or plot demands) she can't be a Mary Sue isn't a good argument
@@fusionev0 if Egwene is a Mary Sue, almost half the cast is one too.
@@fusionev0 as I said, all throughout every single book, everyone talks about The Pattern, and how no one really has much of a choice in life. But even the people who say it immediately forget that and go about their lives.
TaVeren, and of course the Forsaken are able to make some of their own choices, but even with them The Pattern changes everything around them to get what it wants anyway.
Next time you re-read the books you'll see.
Egwene's life just went exactly as The Pattern chose for her. She had zero choice.
The Pattern is a frikkin Jerk!
Capable, ambitious, and driven remind me of the Hermoine Grainger character in HP.
This is just making me realize that I'd love a channel where Nae'Blis reads crappy fan fiction and reacts to it
Lol don’t give me ideas
@@NaeBlis do it. :P
While I was never a real fan-boy for Egwene, she is a competently written character with plenty of personality. Driven to learn yes, but she was chosen as apprentice by Nynaeve and - though both having the spark for channeling might be part of it - both are very smart and clever women so I think Nynaeve saw that in Egwene too. And while training under different masters as it were broadened her mind even more, and she has a very tactical and deductive mindset to begin with. So she is not a Mary Sue no.
As for fooling the forsaken and running circles around the Hall... Well, while the Forsaken might have lived for a long time, but I think their power and knowledge can't always be applied in the same way in "modern" Randland. They are also extrememly arrogant, sure of themselves and their power and that became their downfall several times. They also assumed that the "children calling themselves Aes Sedai today" could not learn all they knew, not to MENTION learning things they themselves did not. And I think to a lesser degree that can also be transferred to the older Aes Sedai from the tower, set in their ways. So I am not saying that Egwene did not need and get help along the way, I am just saying it is not as far fetched as it might seem. ;-)
"They are also extrememly arrogant, sure of themselves and their power and that became their downfall several times." funny enough, that should have worked in Mesaana's _favor_ in that last fight, not against her. I have my own headcannon that the Dark One unintentionally set up Egwene for the win. I would put the strength of will of someone ballsy enough to go offer their soul to Shai'tan _in person_ about par with Egwene's stubbornness. I honestly believe that, without being humiliated and _literally assaulted_ by a Myrdraal as punishment a short while before their fight, Mesaana could have equaled or surpassed Egwene's will, but having her been taken down a peg? That might just have been the small edge Egwene needed to win, we _do_ see that it was a horribly close call between them after all.
Suan is the one that guided the other Salidars look for a someone who wasn't in the tower, but was powerful. She is the one that made them come to the realization that Egwene was the only one that fit their needs. That's why it seems like the role was "just for her". That being said, I always thought Suan was aiming the Salidars at Moiraine before learning of her fate and she pivoted to Egwene.
I just finished reading book 6 (I'm on my 3rd time through the series) and one thing that also help her with her leadership and seeing the political undercurrents was all of Moraine's advice given to Rand while they were in the Waste. Egwene was present for most if not all of it, and she explicitly says to herself that she was glad she had paid attention to Moraine, who was indeed an expert at the Game of Houses.
Also regarding he defeat of Mesana in the World of Dreams, she technically wasn't the first to do so. Nyneave's capture of Moghedien also occurred much earlier in the series, and while it was through a 'big-brain' play putting the Adam on her, it nevertheless makes Egwene's win over Mesana non-unique.
Her problem, though, is that she later does not get that Rand is literally a GOD. And should have never said "OK. You be in charge of me!" at the end. He should have told her in that scene "Look. One of us has a prophecy. One word and my men level your broken tower. GET back there and help, or go home and risk a loss!" and then turn it all over to MAT not her.
1. Her personality from the start was extremely driven and questioning.
2. She was forced, through an a'dam, to reach her strength and potential much earlier than most Aes Sedai. Not enough to master her abilities, just enough to open them up to her much sooner than normal.
3. She was not indoctrinated in the White Tower for decades with what can and can't be done.
There are times where she does feel like a Mary Sue, but people forget about HOW she became so powerful and focus on just how powerful she is. Also, she grew up around ta'veren, so I'm sure the Wheel wove her to have more potential than normal due to this fact.
Not to mention she had an insane desire to learn everything she could from anyone she could, mainly the Wise Ones. Plus, as powerful as she became, it was nothing compared to what people knew how to do in the age of legends. She combined her power, with her force of will, and her determination to be better than those around her.
Yes! And she lives in a time when the Dragon actually gets Reborn, and the Wheel is spurning out alot of extraordinary characters, much more than usual. That is why our young heroes are som much stronger than the older Aes Sedai.
Totally agree, plus with her high initial potential and proximity to three Ta'veren, there's a reason Moraine took her and Nynaeve to the white tower for training after all.
Another character aspect that is overlooked in the Mary Sue debate: she had an overriding desire to learn whatever she tries to do.
*cough*narcissist*cough*
No, she really only wanted power and status. She is very resistant to learning anything she thinks won't help her in that regard and has absolutely no interest or empathy towards others' desires to learn.
Look at her attitude towards Elyas the moment he tells her she can't learn to talk to wolves. Look how much interest she retains in her medical studies once she has her sights set in something higher than Wisdom - she actually rebukes Nynaeve for trying to learn from Mother Guenna. When Moiraine is asking about the Aiel and Old Tongue and Prophecies, in a context which could be very important to the world in days to come, Egwene has no patience for it and keeps changing the subject back to herself and her interest. She dismisses what she hears of Moiraine teaching Rand politics, until she stands to gain by such "underhanded" activity, then she hopes she can remember it.
Learning, for Egwene, is only a means to an end of greater status and especially power.
Never thought she was a mary I just think she is a hypocrite and does bad things to her friends.
Same.
totally agree with your thoughts on egwene. people dismiss her drive to learn and succeed, without realizing that having that drive is the hardest part of the path to greatness.
I love the red wand in the promo at the end
Her political prowess comes from Suane. Suane in a way is still almost incharge by proxy through Egwene for a long time until Egwene unites everyone together, and then everyome is kinda commited to a bigger picture. They have a competant enough leader so they focus on the last battle.
It also takes her like 1.5 books to get the rebel aes sedia to somewhat follower her lmao
I think growing up close to Rand ,one of the strongest Ta'veren to have ever lived, would have had a strong influence on Egwene and her abilities as it did on many of his friends from the Two Rivers.
That might be true but Rand's and Mat's and Perrin's ta'verens nature did not start acting as wildly as it did until the books began so it wouldn't affect Egwene in any way or the others for that matter.
I like your "black hole sue" expansion. Especially where the other sisters are concerned. By the end of the story, I was wondering how anything ever got done! Good video!
Great vid, Naebs. Always love the content. I’ve always loved Egwene but also questioned her decisions sometimes, never even considered she could be a Mary Sue, except momentarily when SPOILER - - - she reunited the tower, but I wanted it soooo bad I did not care lol. Can’t wait to see you and Lezbi Nerdy on the Dusty Wheel later in the month! (Also the red rod ..... you can probably hear me laughing as I’m close to certain the whole content of North America can hear my cackling)
Mary Sue is often leveled at any competent female character that is also kinda "bossy". In other words, characters some people don't like.
I always thought that a lot of the rediscoveries related to the power were more related to "it's amazing what one can do when one does not know what one cannot do". And also, "it's amazing what one can learn when one puts aside one's prejudices about wilders." Of note was the "new" healing weaves that were "discovered" due to Nynaeve's natural healing ability. As I recall, there was some "but why are you using *that* in the healing weave?" involved.
Answer: No, she's flawed as hell. Most things don't work out for her, but she's stubborn enough that she eventually gets what she wants. She's unliked, spoiled, egotistical, treated like crap, and eventually dies. But she does complete her goals because she's too stubborn to quit, as a hero of the horn should be.
Before I watch, I'll go ahead and answer: She's not a Mary Sue. The Pattern saw her talent, gave her a crash course in leadership, then used her up, then threw her away.
Huge difference.
Best arc ever. Now I feel the need for crying a little...
Now it's goood again. Move on.
Besides being from The Two Rivers where folks are mostly pretty hard working, she was also apprentice to Nynaeve who wouldn't tolerate any slacking whatsoever.
Next up: Is Mat a Mary Sue?
Watch the whole video lol
Clever.
@@NaeBlis oh, I did. I just think Mat deserves his own deep dive. To me, ta'veren is just Mary Sue-ness in elemental form. I don't think Perrin is a Mary Sue at all though, and Rand could possibly be considered one, but Mat fits the criteria better than anyone. His luck and his Finn memories and his overall lack of maturity are very Mary Sue to me. And of course, 'everybody loves Mat'. He even gets a cool eyepatch, a hallmark of the male Mary Sue/Gary Stu.
Yes
Of course he is
egwene is not a mary sue. she's just a good old fashioned plain as hell narcissist :)
Yes! Competent, smart but easy to hate, lol
Having dealt with a few narcissists - she's def not one. Super fuck of her self, but not a narcissist.
AMEN. She's so flipping full of herself
I hated her until the end, then I felt sad.
@@NottyAries Is she really competent? Because, really, other people tend to do much better than she, and friendship blinders means she doesn't get called out for a lot of stuff by the characters, and meanwhile, she has no problem aggrandizing herself and tearing down her friends in her own PoV.
Even her accomplishments and achievements tend to get inflated by fans and her own perspective. She was picked as Amyrlin because she was disposable, she got essential help taking power herself, from a disgruntled and marginalized individual with a unique insider-access knowledge base, who intended to manipulate her, but was compromised ahead of time by Egwene's friends. Her channeling discovery involved the most outside assistance, with Elayne reverse engineering ter'angreal on her own, Nynaeve doing what the Age of Legends believed impossible, and Egwene rediscovering Traveling by basically asking a couple different people "how do you do that?"
Before she goes to Salidar, Egwene is basically dead weight, whose impact on the plot comes mainly through how more important characters act in regard to her. And her story in Salidar has little to do with the major plot overall, beyond turning Nynaeve & Elayne loose to do their thing.
Most characters are much smarter than she as well. Thom, Lan, Elaida, Mat and the Wise Ones all instantly understand the reality of her elevation to the Amyrlin Seat, that it's bullshit, that no one really listens to her, that she is just a figurehead. Yet, Egwene, the morning after her raising, is annoyed that she has not been left with pen & paper to write decrees, and is constantly furious that no one is listening to an 18 year old with practically no useful or relevant knowledge.
Egwene isn't even the first to defeat a Forsaken in the world of dreams. Nyneave (spelling?) defeated and captured Moghedian.
Egwene learned as fast in the World if Dreams as did Perrin and Perrin is not a Gary Stu.
@anonymous opinions I disagree. Perrin is a wolfbrother. He is able to communicate with wolves. That gives him some ability to access to the World of Dreams. Yet he still needed to practice/learn. Hopper taught him.. Elayas is able to enter the World of Dreams but is not as skilled as Perrin. He says he is not as knowledge as Perrin. Egwene is a Dreamer. But she needed teaching from the Aiel Dreamwalkers to allow her to master the World of Dreams.
I never thought of her as Mary Sue. The closest she cake was as Amyrlin. Even with training from Aiel and Siuan, there were times where it seemed extreme. However, even if there were several Mary Sues and Gary Stus in this story, there’s an in universe explanation. The wheel is spinning these people out in preparation for the last battle.
She comes, she comes! The watcher over the seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, Recappa Sedai!
I just don't see how people can't see that she went through just as much as Rand in this series, and had just as important a part, yet call her a Mary Sue. Simply because of her personality. It is her personality and will, that allows her to survive everything she went through. I must give you a standing ovation on the Michael Jordan comparison. I never thought of that, but you are right on. She used her force of will to break through barriers, and bend people to her point of view, in order to win the final battle. Great video, brother! For your community shout outs...check out ravenbellebooks page on TH-cam. Great first time read through page :)
I have to disagree, not with her not being a Mary Sue, but with the idea that she went through just as much as Rand. Rand was tortured, crippled, manipulated, and struggling with insanity, PTSD, and in some ways depression. Yes, Egwene does go through some of that stuff, but Rand gets the hard end I it throughout the series. Also, I don’t agree with the idea that she played as important a role in the last battle as Rand. She did have an important role, but his battle was the core pillar of the battle, and if he had lost then Egwene’s sacrifice would have meant nothing as the Dark One would have either wiped out the world or changed it completely and utterly.
I mean I don't think she's a full on Mary Sue but I always thought the events surrounding her captivity in the tower were largely...convenient. Still love that part but it does nag at me and prompts some minor eye rolls. Like...no one has anything better to do other than to realize how amazing Egwene is? lol Another great video Nae'Blis!!
They are all walking on tip toes from the huge divisions in the tower- then they see someone standing up to Elida like none of them had the courage to do. They started to see her as Aes Sedia in the way she carried herself in the tower.
Then factor in that the Aes Sedia power structure favours those who have more power- she naturally get listened to (its mentioned in like book 7 or something that they do that naturally).
Then factor in that the rebel Aes Sedia are still following her orders in the negotiations, gives her more clout.
She also shows her aptitude to these individuals, it is fast- but its not like she walks in and everyone pledges allegiance
That's a fancy looking Red Rod Ter'angreal you have at 17:26. 🤣🤣🤣
Almost more than any other character, Egwenes foundation is explained. There is a reason for every success and failure. Her personality is explained as early as the prologue chapter of the Eye of the World. Her fate as Amyrlin is foreshadowed in that book as well, and Robert Jordan takes great care to explain how a girl could become the Amyrlin, and then become a great Amyrlin.
And if anyone is overpowered it's my favorite Gary Stu of all time, Mat. He literally has luck as a superpower, and becomes the greatest general of the age by chance. All his Power is not earned through hard work, it just is. But it also works in the context of the story.
She also spent more time around ta'veren then anyone else. Jordan did say that people who spend a lot of time around ta'veren get affected by them more.
I've never thought that Egwene was a Mary Sue. She was irritating near the beginning of the series, but I started liking her a lot once she started learning how to use her powers. I thought she was a really competent character that people had a tendency to underestimate despite her obvious strength. I think her being underestimated could solidly explain some of the bumbling by Romanda and Lelaine. As for Elaida, pretty sure she was corrupted by Padan Fain. Considering that she already had an over-inflated opinion of herself, I'm sure it didn't take much time with him to send her into that bizarre negative spiral in the latter half of the series.
That is an excellent point about Fain's influence on Elaida. Although I don't think Elaida would have been a good Amrylin Seat with Fain's taint, she did have some brains. She would not have been such egotistical maniac who lost all political sense.
Correction 1.
Egwene was not trained by the Seanchan at her peak strength. She was forced during her time with them yes (and a rather short time too), but even still was not at her peak strength until later in the series and even then I'm not sure she reached close to her peak until she again was forced using Vora's Sa'angreal during the defense of the White Tower, which is however ironic, a moment where she literally pushed herself to near death exhaustion.
It's more than a little hard to talk about any character being a Mary Sue in The Wheel of Time when the world is literally built from the bones up to be a plot device.
The phrase 'The wheel weaves as the wheel wills' gets uttered any time the plot or a character does something odd. Develop some new Talent or power? It's the wheel. Accidentally become a great general/ruler/politician? Wheel weaving again. Literally have people change their mind just because you want them to? Ta'veren!
The concept that the wheel is pulling out all of these exceptionally gifted individuals in a time of crisis and conflict is central to the plot, I would argue either they're all Mary Sues or none of them are.
@Travis Fitch she doesnt suffer at all? What books did you read? Besides maybe Rand she takes the most abuse out of all the main characters.
@Travis Fitch What? Torture by Seanchan, beatings by Aes Sedai and death in the end doesnt count as suffering?(and i think i probably forgot a few things)
@Travis Fitch I don't know what books you have read but Egwene is not a Mary Sue. And she escapes because her friends bust her out. Getting rescued does not make one a Mary Sue. Sure Rand probably suffered the most, but besides Rand I can't see another main character get as consistently punished as she was. You are delusional if you claim her story was the easy street of a Mary Sue.
@Travis Fitch most aes sedai dont die but are enslaved and broken. and not every succes of a character u dont like means she is mary sue.
Her learning of channeling and thinking as an Aes Sedai (i.e. that balefire is this special weave that is dangerous) means it never occurred to her that she can control a weave of balefire could be controlled by a dreamer
Also need to remember that for hundreds of years the Black Ajah targeted powerful channellers and those with talents. Egwene not being in the White Tower for periods of time allowed her to escape being done away with a become what many might have been before her.
Isn't it also implied later on that black ahja members among the rebels (like shiriam) influence the selection of Egweyne as armorlyn precisely because they think it's a bad choice that will either cause further infighting or a large chunk of the rebels being led by what they believe to be an incompetent? Especially with shiriam as the keeper to such a figurehead.
Personally I’ve always thought that the main characters are like “lesser Ta’veren.” Each one of them was a master in their respective field, extremely capable, and constantly played key rolls in the fight against the dark one. My theory is the pattern nudges them all to be the heroes needed to save the world, and gives them a little bit of plot power.
Egwain is no Mary Sue, it takes her most of the series to learn her powers, including before we meet her.
True .. sooo true... she literally worked and developed and adapted what she learned for everything she achieved.
I agree. Egwene is no Mary Sue
Thank you for taking the time to define what a Mary Sue actually is. I find that Mary Sue, like so many other terms had been thrown around so much that it has lost all meaning. And few used it properly to begin with.
Spoilery! Here's why Egwene might not be a Mary Sue.
1. She was forced. On her own and by the Seanchan.
2. During her time with the Seanchan she learned things that Aes Sedai wouldn't at the very least teach her until she had spent much much more time than she did at either Tower.
3.. She is or was a rather driven woman. So driven, I like to think that if it wasn't for the Seanchan she likely would have been a most likely to burn herself out.
4. Her time with the Aiel gave her an edge that no one but Cadsuane had. By the time she left them she was well beyond your average Aes Sedai. Combined with her Seanchan training, however short that time was l, she was an animal.
6. She was quite the intelligent woman. This was conveyed early in the series, and she didn't much tolerate idiocy from her friends. Between her drive to learn and improve and her innate intelligence, she was literally born to lead.
Mary Suish? Maybe, buy Jordan set her up by circumstance. It was her friends Ta'veren nature that saved her time and again early on. Later on, when the Rebel Tower gave her actual power to influence, her intelligence and guile kept her ahead of the pack.
My only real problem with Egwene was not her incredulous progress, super woman wise, it was her arrogance. She was easily the most arrogant of all the main characters. She was so confident in her intellect she thought she knew better than everyone. And I mean everyone. She was single handedly responsible for everyone's hate of Gawayn. And incredulously, he was actually right most of the time. He just had a bad habit of getting there in a rather obtuse way. She on the other hand almost got herself killed multiple times despite advise to the contrary of whatever she thought was right. The only main character who surpassed her in this regard was Elaine.
Anyways, Im rambling.
My two cents.
I think a lot of people severely undervalue the kinds of training she received throughout the story. The Aes Sedai purposely teach their students very slowly and methodically to minimize the danger to them, but the Aiel tend to be far less restrictive, willing to teach students as fast as they think they can handle, and the Seanchan literally force their channelers to learn everything as fast as possible. Beyond that though, all 3 channelers have different philosophies and styles of channeling.
The Aes Sedai tend to learn channeling as much for academic purposes as to actually use it, so while they may be very knowledgeable in the power and develop very fine control, they also tend to be somewhat wasteful and uncreative in its use. They learn mostly by rote, and frown upon experimentation.
The Aiel tend to use the power in more practical ways, allowing for creativity as long as the job gets done, and minimizing the effort expended. At one point, the Aiel note that the Aes Sedai have a tendency to wave their hands around when channeling, such as making a throwing motion in order to fling a fireball, when no movement at all is actually necessary. That also allows them to be more covert in their channeling. The Aiel also seem to be better multitaskers when channeling, as they teach their students how to control many flows at once by deconstructing weaves, something that also works into their covert angle since deconstructed weaves leave no residue.
The Seanchan focus their channeling on power and war. They don't seem all that interested in fine control or actual theory, but rather on raw power. They also specialize in destructive weaves, ones that the Aes Sedai would likely never teach or even want to learn.
Learning from all 3 schools of channeling would doubtless allow someone to perform feats that strict adherents to just one school would find difficult to comprehend.
In the www.shopwheeloftime.com store, is that a red rod terangreal vibrator for sale? I’m 💯 % sure it is
Yeah she has a bit of mary sue in her, but she makes mistakes, has enemies, Has a looot of support from older and more experienced teachers/characters etc. Also the whole Pattern thing... she certainly has moments but I think overall it's built well into the story
Clearly not a Mary Sue, but also clearly benefits from #1 being pulled by Ta'Veren, #2 of being a predestined hero of the horn.
OMG, the red rod ter'angreal! Haha! Oh no!
Lol you’re the first person that’s noticed so far
@@NaeBlis I had to go to the site and check if it was really there. Yup! Well played.
Someone bought one last night lol. It’s a hit
@@UnravelingthePattern I did the same. Laughed myself sore when I saw it there. Had to rewind to make sure I wasn't imagining things.
Reading the Red Rod Ter'Angreal description the now. OMG, are these things usually advertised this way!?
honestly i find alot of the characters in wheel of time to feel a little mary sue. They all progress so fast in the span of like 3 years that it dwarfs the accomplishments of anyone remotely competent that exists in the world currently. Its like all the main cast we follow are people of prophecy not just rand. Its still awesome and i enjoy everyone except elayne.
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooo.
Way late to this, but another solid point to Egwene being made Amerlyn is covered by Elida herself. They wanted someone expendable who was unlikely to be executed/stilled. The Hall and Keeper would likely have gotten penance, but in the name of unity, it was unlikely anything else would happen to them. They needed someone they could control AND who was going to be immune to Elida's punishment (mostly) should the tower reunite and Elida win.
I feel like the original mary sue story also revealed another perfect analogy for mary sue stories. I feel like we skipped the fact that Kirk's character was assassinated to serve the self insert character as he way out of character asked a 15 year old to go to bed with him. Kinda reminds ya of Luke Skywalker trying to kill his nephew for narrative reasons in TLJ doesn't it?
She's a Betty Sue - the pretty hometown girl who achieves it all, but learns from her mistakes (eventually); doesn't marry the hometown boy she's 'supposed to marry,' and breaks free of her small town personna to reach a success she never even dreamed of.
Egwene reminds me or feels to me like Arjuna of Mahabharata Epic of my country India. The guy was super-competitive and excelled at everything he put his mind to. Excellence was a habit to him. He wanted to be the Best and had natural hunger for Knowledge. He absorbed all the learning from His Teacher Drona and became his favourite pupil above even Drona's own son Ashvatthama.
Arjuna was a natural at Archery and was gifted with this Hunger to learn. So similar to our Egwene
I did not hear you mention that Egwene listened in when Moiraine was teaching Rand about Daes Dae'mar
I agree that she isn't, though she will be a lot more believable in the adaptation if the series lasts for 10 years, rather than 3. A lot of the problems I have with the books stems from putting so many books into the span of 3 years. So, in a way, all of those problems dissappear if they do that. And I really don't see why they wouldn't.
Never crossed my mind.
But I read books to enjoy stories, there are faults in everything if you look deep enough
Never crossed my mind either.
Good point about Egwenes sudden political adeptness, everyone forgets or overlooks the fact that she had BOTH Suiane and Leanne tutoring her. Because of their loss of status they were both allowed to be around her pretty much 24/7 and the whole time they're guiding her on how to handle the aes sedai.
She also took to heart everything the Wise Ones had to teach her, so pretty much through the whole series she's being groomed for leadership.
I actually would have loved to see how RJ would have written Egwene more than any other character. Not that Brandon did a bad job with wrapping things up, but he did also have a wrap things up task ahead of him. Anyway, I definitely don't find her to be a Mary Sue. Even with Rand's failings, I think he is more a Mary Sue than she is, if you actually want to find one in WoT, and the series has a cast where typically each major cast member has talents that stand out. It's also set against the backdrop of a very fate-driven world.
The Dragon reborn broke the traditions of the world, changing the world forever.
Please get some new darker dry erase markers. I need to be able to read that board!
Already done lol
Probably the closest to a Mary Sue out of all the characters, that probably is the reason why the ta'veren theory is so popular since it can lessen some of those criticisms but that theory never made sense to me, she's surrounded by Aes Sedai for the whole series, who easily identify ta'veren and some even have talents that let them identify them at a glance, so it doesn't make sense for her to be ta'veren and not know about it.
Egwene is a bit of a Mary Sue, but its mainly in her political abilities, most of the others can be explained away. but she is not the only one to have Mary Sue/Gary Stu issues in the series, she just gets alot of notice because of how mange pages we get of her showing off her abilities. Others that could be mentionsed is Rand (leadership abilities), Perrin (battle abilities) Mat (luck) Gawyn/Galad (sword abilities) all of these have other abilites that might seem to fit, but do not, because they are more explained in the lore, like how ability with the one power makes you able to learn by instinct or Perrin being a smith for strengt or Mat getting the memories of others for battle, these are not Mary/Gary senarios, they are earned in some way. Perrin though, suddenly just know how to lead armies without any training, Egwene can suddenly dominate people with hundred og years of political experience and Gawyn and Galad are masters of the sword depite their young age and only having done sparing and no real to the death battles (Galad could be defended as i is acutall nearer 30 than 20.)
Black hole sue also happens in real life.... Years of Planning ends up in stupid mistakes which a novice can skip doing.
She is. But there's so much going on that it doesn't affect the story as a whole but she is. With no defeat, there's no tension.
Umm....she dies.
She is still my least favorite character because she is annoying and sexist towards men. I feel that she believes she is superior to everyone. She manipulates everyone for her benefit or the benefit of the white tower. Overall, I don't like those kind of people in life so I don't like her character.
The Aiel Wise Ones were very political. Just a different type of politics than Wetlands and White Tower are used to. Also, she listened closely to Moiraine's politics and game of thrones lectures she gave Rand.
15:31 You forget, the dark one is touching the Pattern. Ambition, is one of his weapons. Both factions want Power, over the rest. Not to lead, but to have their own way. Their reasoning faculties are clouded.
Look at Elaida, you think after the coup she pulled, she would be dumb enough to fracture her own aja?
She's old enough to know better. Yet,she behaves like a spoiled teenager.
Egwene, is not after Power, she is half coerced to the role. Of course, once she's in charge, she becomes
mule headed and sentimental, risking herself,for nothing.
Its like breathing low oxy air. It s sapping your mind, but it takes time. Egwene is fresh to the rebel camp, so she 's a bit sharper than the rest, but eventually, she succumbs to.
Its like the air around Tar Valon is poisoned or something.
Rand: listens to Elayne in between kisses for a few days, allows Moiraine to council him for about two weeks, king of many nations. People: that makes sense.
Egwene: instructed by literally the only Aiel who dabble in politics, instructed by the last Amerlyn Seat for many _months,_ rules one organization. People: _unbelievable, HOW?_
Honestly, though Egwene is _far_ from my favorite, I only think little of her as a person; as a character, she was fantastic... And, Mary Sue? Bitch please, Mat is much more of a Mary Sue than her and he doesn't come close to being one xD
It's a story about fate, and heroes rising to the occasion, taking power and defeating the great evil. _Of course_ they are all gonna sound and look a bit crazily adept, that is _literally_ the point of the story. Rand becomes a master of the blade in half a year or less, Nynaeve heals everything, Mat is an untouchable _god,_ Perrin lucks into being king, and Egwene manages to be a good Amerlyn. That's what the story was _for,_ showing how more human people would behave if destiny suddenly called them to greatness.
When things in WOT don't make sense, it's because the reader is forgetting the greatest plot device ever invented Taveren
My opinion is: The sitters appear to be bumbling idiots because they underestimate Egwene. That's how she gets them in the traps.
What is a “ Mary Sue”?
If she is, then so is every magic user jn every magic system that requires one to be born with a certain ability. Also, she trains for like 6 books before being really powerful. She also misses the characteristic of being selfless, she clearly has a personality and wants selfish things like love and power.
@Travis Fitch Her not being in the tower is the point. The Aes Sedai are arrogant fools that make the Novices and Accepted crawl. Egwene being out in teh "real world" means she has to develop much faster to survive, beginning with her captivity under the Seanchan starting her on a path to becoming much more talented than Aes Sedai at destructive weaves since she wasn't bound by the Three Oaths at the time.
Egwene's biggest mistake isn't that either. It's having an amazing arc in the White Tower captivity where she spends two books demosntrating why the Aes Sedai are such arrogant entitled children and inferior in maturity and willpower to the Aiel Wise Ones in every way, then as soon as she becomes Amyrlin she becomes exactly like them.
Is that red-rod ter'angreal what it looks like? o_O
I thought 1 of the weakest part of the series was how RJ explained how the heroes developed. I always found it very unbelielivable how badly the Forsaken failed against Rand. I thought that it was highly unrealistic. Especially at the start. From what we know of Demandred for example, when he found out that Rand basically wasn't Lews Therin, he would've launched himself against him. This is even described in the books but he never does. What Egwene does again is not just her but most of the heroes with the exception of Mat. Mat basically isn't Mat after his memories. He basically goes from competent staff wielder/rogue/scoundrel/farm boy to the greatest military commander in history. His arc makes sense and all his journey makes sense. Same with Perrin. His abilities make sense. Egwene/Nynaeve/Rand. Their arcs make no sense. Abilities make no sense in that world. How is it from 1 village u get the greatest magic wielders and 3 tave'ren is just ridiculous. In a realistic world, Rand would've lost against Ishamael in Falme. In EoTW, he does that assistance so it makes sense. Every other Forsaken fight even with assistance makes no sense even with all their arrogance. Arrogance is 1 thing. But after you been alive so many years and survived the War of Power, you wouldn't make mistakes like the Forsaken did against 'so called Aes Sedai'.
I remember back when those books first came out there were LOADS of comments on message boards stating that Egwene was totally a Mary Sue... which at the time I didn't even know what that was, but it's nice to have a good, in-depth representation as to why she isn't.
Actually, my wife loves Egwene, at least from Eye of the World (which is where she is at), and refers to her as "the little bucket carrier that could".
What's interesting is that I always got the impression that she should also have been considered a ta'veren and often wondered why she was not. It would seem that only men in the WOT universe can be considered ta'veren, but she definitely seems to fit the same requirements. She is often pulled into things without her direct effort, and things will happen for her that had she not been ta'veren would not have happened.
The Black Hole Sue thing is exactly why I'm hoping the show really did make her Ta'veren.
If I had to pick a Mary Sue from WOT it would be Mat, granted he isn’t but I think he is the closest candidate. Egwene starts learning with Moiriane, one of the most powerful Aes Sedai of her time, is addicted to channeling in the beginning and practiced constantly. At the tower she was given a lot of attention because of her ability, then grew real fast when she was captured and tortured by the Seanchan. Her also getting tasked with hunting the Black Ajah gave her and her ability a sense of urgency to advance. I know this only covers the first four books but it sets her up to continue to advance at a lighting pace mentally and physically throughout the series. Also the wise ones really helped her grow a solid pair of balls in her dreamer training. She was set after going through that, lol.
God damn, i never thought about it before, but now that you mention it, yeah, she totally was a Mary Sue.
She appears or gives the illusion of mary suedom because of her very fast progression in power and rank
Egwene had flaws. She looked into dreams she shouldn't have, she disagreed with Rand about the last battle and almost jeopardized victory.
I think she should have had more driving her to be so great, Rand had all his responsibility, and the weight of needing to perform well, and he had to do it, she went from not even trying to, suddenly became the leader of the Aes sedai (bad spelling) and started to perform outstandingly as a leader, with no former experience.
My first thought was yes she is, but after reading the comments for a while I see that she is not my only complaint was her power in the end was a little OP.
#Here4WhiteBoard it needs ink, but you been crushing videos lately!
To me, when I hear someone's a Mary Sue, I think-
Goody-goody, Teacher's Pet, Miss perfect, (maybe stuck-up, think she's better than u), tattle tale, Self-important,..
Naive, Sheltered, parents always told her she's a princess.....
That's what comes to mind for me.
Great video Nae'blis. I love it 3000.
I have never seen Egwene as a Mary Sue.
I would say that the Aes Sedai surely are strong and politically proficient, but they, like the White Cloaks, are also super strict to their point of view and their traditional ways of doing things. Enter Egwene (with a little help from friends like Siuan) like a mad scientist and puts everything in disorder. And you know, it is the mad scientist that thinks outside the box and see things differently to the old guys, the centuries older scientists, that wins the Nobel Prize. Not the older ones that did it the same way over and over...
Heck, if there is any Mary Sue in the series, go search for Rand or Perrin instead!
Could you argue she is Ta'averen or as close as you can be with out being one
Egwene turned into one of my favorites, she was a beast!
I like the white board. Recappa is so good, everyone should check out her channel she is hilariously entertaining.
I can never get past what she did to Nyneave in Tel'aran'rhiod. I can admire some of the things she did. But I can never ever like her.
She summoned a Trolloc that sexually assaulted and traumatized Nyneave just so she could protect herself from the wise ones whom she was lying to.
Egwene may have been on the good side but she was not a good person.
She is frequently written as making mistakes and being intentionally unlikeable. I think that’s more key to her not being a Mary Sue than her speedrunning powerups/status.
I like the term black hole character. More fitting for her. Mary sue never really fit but things she does needs a strong boost from something. Plot armor, light, creator, or the flying spaghetti monster who knows.
I think Egwene's political abilities are explained by a couple of things. Egwene had leadership abilities before she came to the tower. Both of her parents were good leaders. She had also been training as a Wisdom, and a Wisdom was really more about leadership than anything else. Moiraine also taught her before arriving in the tower, and some of those lessons involved the politics of the tower. But the Wise Ones were a huge influence.
I think she gains power by exploiting the weaknesses of the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai and everyone else thought they were masters of political intrigue. But the truth was they were powerful because they scared people with their power and they were rich. Their most important flaw was that they were blind to their own weaknesses. They were rife with divisions. Most Aes Sedai thought she was the only one who saw the truth. Egwene did not spend that much time in the tower before she was raised, and much of the time she did spend in the tower she was treated as a run-away and an outsider. Instead of getting sucked into believing the myths, she saw the true nature of Tower politics. The only Aes Sedai who really saw the problems with the Tower were Moirain, Siuan, and Cadsuane. Moirain herself had spent so little time in the tower that she tended to see the politics from the perspective of an outsider. Siuan seemed to have a natural understanding, possibly based in part on her secret mission to find and support the Dragon Reborn. Egwene was trained by two of those three.
So I think Egwene was good because she saw the Tower politics for what it was. She knew the politics well enough to exploit it, but she did not buy the myths of Aes Sedai political prowess. She had the lessons the Wise Ones taught her. I viewed her manipulations as simply applying what she learned in the Waste to manipulating the Aes Sedai. On your next reread watch Egwene's training by the Wise Ones. You see forshadowing of tricks and strategies she will use among the Aes Sedai in the later books.
Egwene being allowed to roam around in the White Tower isn't abnormal, since Elaida just wants people to see her as a mere novice. She isn't even formally recognised as an Aes Sedai. To not allow her to take on novice duties would be recognising her as an Amyril, which Elaida would never do. Also, Egwene observed and pondered over Moiraine's actions a lot, especially in the Waste. She discusses her conclusions with her, leading to gaining Moiraine's respect. Remember: Moiraine was born Cairhairen and then became Aes Sedai. Everyone someone performs a weave that Egwene doesn't know, she ponders over it. This happens as early as when she heads to the white tower along with Nynaeve and gets put down by the then Amyril. Her ability to learn wasn't a surprise at all. The political intrigue though... Well, it's pretty obvious that Robert Jordan wasn't good with that. He just couldn't construct grand political stories, and I'm assuming that he couldn't flesh this out well enough.