Reifgraber .38 S&W Automatic
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- / forgottenweapons
Designed by Austrian immigrant Joseph Joachim Reifgraber, this is a prototype gas-assisted short recoil pistol in a .38 rimmed revolver cartridge. While this version did not see any serial production, the Union Firearms Company of Toledo (Ohio) did market a slightly smaller model in .32 S&W (and .32 ACP). The gas-assist, as described in Reifgraber's patent, is used in this gun but not in the .32 model.
I like the simplicity of the action and trigger mechanism. As my engineer father always pointed out, complicated is easy, simple is hard.
t seems that perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove. - Antoine de Saint Exupéry (Terre des Hommes (1939), Ch. III: L'Avion)
simplicity can only be achieved when you truly understand what you're doing. complexity is easier because you just add more pieces each time you encounter a problem, without an overall holistic view.
those deer are always so interested in what you bring to the table.
+Andrigo rosetti
I always though they had a bit of a _wooden_ expression myself...
+Deathlok67 oh deer they look weird
+Robert Smith Oh dear, don't start carving into them.
the puns hurt, not physically, but spiritually.
+Andrigo rosetti Shut the buck up!
I noticed in your .32 review you read about the exceptional bluing in the advertisement and then neglected to comment on how perfect the bluing was on the inner protected barrel of this .38 model. If the original gun looked like that barrel today, it must have been a quite nice pistol at purchase for being 110 years old now showing it's age from use. Thanks, a good vid as usual.
What a fascinating design! Elegant and simple, just as it should be. I'd never heard of this designer before, but thanks to your great, informative video, I've definitely heard of him now.
I've often heard people say, "No-one ever truly dies as long as people remember them." Thank you for helping keep the memory of this admittedly obscure, but obviously brilliant designer alive, and by all means, keep up the great work, Ian!😁
Beautifully said
i watch these every time i eat at home and its one of my favorite parts of the day
Agreed after a days work there’s nothing like getting lost in some forgotten weapons
Why did I read it as Refrigerator .38 S&W Automatic?
I would have bought one, I like the .38S&W. What is not mentioned is that the rimmed cartridges of that time were loaded with black powder as well as smokeless. It's possible that this pistol could operate with black powder without jamming.
I have a couple turn of the century revolvers, .32 and .38 S and W. Would give a pinky finger to play with both of those autos, though, as I have a fondness for these cartridges.
I do as well
In a way this reminds me of the "boot" on the Finnish Lahti pistols. Those had a little pivoting "boot" that when the barrel recoiled would swing back and smack the front of the bolt to give it some extra force significantly different executions, but the same concept of bolstering the force on a short recoil pistol.
+May “A-T” Sparkle The technical term there would be an accelerator.
In pretty good shape for a ~110 Yr old prototype. Thanks Ian.
- Eddie
Neat gun, with a wonderful history for the maker and his guns.
I love the story of the maker, he was unionist and an anarchist, a left wing radical like myself, although I'm a Democratic Socialist with anarchist leanings, original anarchism (syndicalists, anarcho-socialists, mutualists and anarcho-communists made the basis of this, very interesting and unique ideologies that I take some ideas from) and Dem Soc are the way to go on the left in my opinion, had I been alive then I would've used my farm money to fund this dude and the organizations he was part of big time.
@@democracydignityhumanrights this is so sad, off to the gulag with you
Maaaaan, i cant see why your videos get a single dislike. Always informative and entertaining! Keep up the great work
Once again Ian drops some serious science on us!
I can always count on you to come up with something new and amazing Ian! XD
great video as always
No doubt.
+Mrgunsngear Channel Hey! You've got a cool gun channel as well!
Elegant and innovative. It would make quite a conversation piece in any collection. Cool video Ian; there's always something fascinating about transitional firearms like these. :-)
Another great video. Thanks Ian.
That looks a really neat gun .
Really superb design, mechanically simple and elegant
Yooo Toledo represent!! Great video!
excellent as always thank you for keeping these alive outside a musty private Collection if only on video.
Interesting design, must be a heavy piece. Thanks for sharing!
I really like your videos.You re very good at explaining those things!
Interesting design. Certainly had potential. The gas assist is rather inspired. I was expecting 38 ACP to get mentioned- people forget that it is about the same power level as original spec 9mm- 130 gr at about 1050 fps vs 124 gr at about 1050-1100. It just never took off for whatever reason. I could almost see a Commander length gun in 38 ACP being created a few years after the 1911 as a slighrly lighter, slightly more compact carry gun. Might have been interesting. Great video as always. Thank you
This would be a great gun for an alternate timeline early 1900s video game
These are cool pistols. It sure does remind me of a Luger
+quarktron Yeah, a lot of early automatics seemed to have the same sort of aesthetics of the luger, especially in the grip. The early Nambus are another example.
+quarktron In esthetics sure, but it has no relation at all when it comes to internals.
Yes, I meant only in terms of the looks
@@marzcorpEven the classic Browning .22 LR target pistol featured the same grip angle as the P-08 Luger, despite the big difference between their mechanical operation.
Apparently, Mr. Browning himself was favourably impressed by the Luger's grip angle.
Hi Ian. Great job on this channel. You bring a ton of gun knowledge to the table. My question is, can we see your personal gun collection someday??
I'm guessing you have a " gun room" not just a " gun safe". Again great job budz
Wonder if Fireplace Collector picked this up. Singular prototype is right up his alley. And those black elk creep me out.
That gas acceleration is an interesting concept, it reminds me of the VG-15 but in reverse as they were trying to delay the action with directing the gas around the barrel.
The .38 S&W is a formidable cartridge.Heavier bullet than the .380 but slower than the 9mm.I reload for the .38 S&W in smokeless and BP.The bullet diameter is .361 but I use .357 and they are pretty accurate.I've got a video up of my Hopkins & Allen shooting the .38 S&W.
+JohnLeePedimore
I load .38 S&W for my pair of H&R Safety Hammerless, but I cast my own .361 projectiles.
+Kaeto2002 If Lee made a cheap mold I'd cast them too.The only mold I could find was like $80.I really don't shoot the gun enough for that.
+JohnLeePedimore
I use Lee's one for 9 mm Makarov and use a sizer to get them down to size.
Really good engineering.
I just woke up and read the title as
Refrigerator ...number blah blah... Automatic.
Same here pretty much, I actually really like the pistol though
I would like to see a remake into,9mm
It looks a bit like an FP-45 Liberator and a Luger had a baby.
Maybe a threesome with a Lahti...
Thanks for the vid sir.
could you feel your eyes peeled for semi auto conversions of Lee Enfield's?
Spending all of this time studying and handling a huge variety of interesting firearms, have you had any desire to try designing your own weapon of dubious practicality?
+deadextra i would love to see what Ian would come up with
+Xtorin “Xt” O'hern I myself would certainly buy one of Ian's guns if he were to start manufacturing firearms
+Xtorin “Xt” O'hern Revolving .50cal swordgun carbine, probably
+deadextra I think Ian answered this question in one of his Q&As (either on FW or on inRangeTV, can't remember). I wouldn't want to put words into his mouth, but I think he said something along the lines of him not really wanting to build his own firearm, because he has the feeling that "he's seen it all", or in other words, "there isn't anywhere else to go". This is just a rough summary of what he said and I hope I remember it correctly.
+deadextra I don't know if Ian has, but I certainly want to give it a shot one day. I'm thinking of something semi auto in say 25 or 32 auto that has a 30-50 round magazine that I could reload for in cheap and interesting ways, something based on a Browning style delayed blowback with a skeleton slide.
I would have loved to be there for his eureka moment for that locking piece :)
Rudimentary, but elegantly simple! A few tweeks would have made this a hugely successful pistol.
This pistol is really cool. After seeing the .38 it looks like the marketing claims may have been legit. I wonder if the ports in the barrel also functioned as a muzzle brake/compensator of sorts.
good video most joy able. thank you
This is ingeneous Design..... Only a few moving parts... 😎
Great design for using a red dot on.
When is the next Q&A coming?
Pretty good pronunciation of the name Reifgraber.
That looks a LOT like a Lahti pistol!
Most of the guns you show are neat designs but have their quirks that explain why they didnt take off... This one puzzles me though because it seems like a really solid/practical design for the time.
sergeantbigmac it cost to much money for the average joe
I'd like to see this design in.357, that would be cool as hell.
It would have a thick grip though.
absolutely love to see a cool handgun designed by an anarchist trade unionist. This guy is sounds like my politics exactly lol. As always great video, love seeing these weird old guns
do i see construction elements of the 1911 and the luger? hmm?
It has the ergonomics of a Luger, but its design elements remind me more of the Nambu pistols; the Grandpa Nambu & all its successors used a pivoting locking piece on the barrel extension derived from Broomhandle Mauser, a pistol Reifgraber might have also been familiar with along with the Luger prior to emigrating, the Nambus up until the Type 14 also had a single return spring on the side of the bolt. It could just be that great minds think alike however, as I recall the first of the Nambus was still being designed & tested when the Union Automatic hit the market.
could this have been developed into something that would be a contender in the trials that led to the 45 automatic Colt being adopted
Like Browning, all done by hand, no Degree, brilliant people back then
Ian, have you ever had the info on how to disassemble a Forgotten Weapon, and WHOOPS wound up having to purchase it broken?
Impressive
Most impressive
Looks like a simple and cheap magazine catch.
Wow, i wonder what this brought at auction. How cool and none serial # none production firearm. Wonder how the original owner got there hands on it considering it was only a prototype not mass produced?
Something like "the six degrees of Kevin Bacon". There's always somebody that knows somebody and on and on...luck...
Can someone link the video he refers to at 0:55 ?
I wonder if it can/will still shoot/function
Wild, wild west
Huh? On the one hand the action is locked, on the other the ammo is so mild that the action needs a boost to unlock? I can see why this didn't sell.
This Reifgraber .38 wouldn't have worked well with .38 ACP if the bore was sized for .38 S&W -- the Smith & Wesson revolver round had a larger bullet (.361) than the .355-.357 that was common in 9 mm rounds and .38 Colt/.38 Special/.357 Magnum. The .38 ACP, with a .357 bullet, would have been significantly undersize and would have suffered gas cutting and poor rifling engagement. If that interchange was envisioned, they'd likely have made this pistol for .38 Colt or .38 Special, even though they chose the S&W round in their .32 (.32 S&W and .32 ACP use the same bore dimensions, after all).
It is an interesting pistol, though, and simple enough I'd bet an experienced amateur gun builder could reproduce it (after a significant amount of cussing at the magazine, and likely some more getting the hammer/sear spring and grip safety to cooperate). If I want a .38 rimmed automatic, though, I'd probably be better off with a Gold Cup...
Can someone make a replica of this gun in 9mm Luger? This is a great pistol to have in one's collection.
I read title as "refrigerator"
No dislike? ONE DISLIKE GUY, WHERE ARE YOU!!!
hi. Ian mispronounced the word "indigo" in a video once, and therefore I dislike.
+Rik Raptor Probably Rollin White, he does more than just patent trolling.
Good job... as always... Could you please speak to why we call a 38 cal a 38 cal. When the bore is .350 "
Thank you in advance for your help with this. ..
;-)
+Willy Bee I believe it's a remnant from a time when cartridge diameter was detrmined by the diameter of the casing, not the bullet?
+mogimbo Taking the measurement of the case mouth used to make a lot more sense, as a lot of early cartridges used heeled bullets. This means the bullet has a slightly narrower section at the rear to fit inside the case mouth, but the body of the bullet is the same external width as the case mouth. About the only cartridge regularly available today that is heeled is the .22LR
+Willy Bee In the time of cap and ball revolvers, caliber was measured by the lands; the smaller diameter of a rifled bore. .36 caliber revolvers actually did have land diameters of .360", but the groove diameters were around .375", or roughly .38 caliber, and thus used a .375-.380 round ball.
Right around the time of rimfire and centerfire cartridges, the "industry" as a whole sorta changed the measurement from land diameter to the deeper groove diameter. The early cartridges had heeled bullets and were accurate to their nominal diameter; .38 rimfire and .38 Short Colt had bullets of .375-.380 in diameter, the same as .36 caliber cap and ball revolvers. Those two cartridges were in fact used in Colt cartridge conversions.
It was figured out rather quickly that heeled bullets weren't optimal and existing cartridges had their bullet diameters shrunk down to fit the bearing surface entirely within the brass casing, which happened to be about .357". Since old guns still existed with ~.375" barrels, the cartridges were made with hollow-base bullets that would expand upon firing and work in the old guns. Once both the old guns and heeled bullets fell pretty much out of use in the 1890s, they dropped hollow-base bullets since almost all new-manufactured revolvers had .357 bore diameters to match anyway.
So there you go, in a strange twist, a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver is actually .38 caliber, and a modern .38 Special revolver is more like .36 caliber :)
+mogimbo
Wow, and thanks. Early on, I figured out that calibre was measured in hundredths of an inch. As in 22 cal. =
.220" and 45 cal. =
.450" .... But what was throwing me for a loop, was that the barrel of a 38 cal. measured .350"...
And that a 38 Special cartridge will load and shoot in a .357 Mag. pistol...
Anyhow, thanks for clearing this up...
ps. don't cha just love how Hollywood and the media know absolutely nothing about ballistics.
Would that gas system be considered a booster? Can someone please fill me in on the proper term for that mechanism.
It's a short recoil action, meaning it's operated by the recoiling mass of both the barrel and bolt assemblies.
I want one and I would shank someone for one that’s how bad I want one😂
Why don't you let us see the auto revolver
Watching these videos has drawn me to a sobering conclusion about the mentality of early European and North American small arms manufacturers. I mean the whole point of a handgun isn't to hunt to game, but basically for the middle and wealthy classes to have system of defence to take down a ruffian. It's a brutally simple and a brutally honest truth about the social life of those times.
I'm not making some kind of political comment, as I find the designs, mechanisms and sometimes the genius, quite fascinating, but you tend to lose sight of what the real purpose of these things are for.
If your conclusion were true, that would explain the Union Automatic's price of $18 at the turn of the century.
Where's the review of the .32?
+Fishkiller 41 In the description.
+Forgotten Weapons No it's not.
Ian, I experienced video/audio synch problem. TH-cam issue??. Is there a possibility Lugar was influenced by this design gin some way?
Correction "in"🍸
I doubt it, there is virtually nothing in common between this and the luger. The luger is a completely different action type, and was developed from the bordchart
+Geoff “IEL” Flato thanks for the reply. It just seems like in the "looks" department quite a few pistols of the ~first third of the century are very similar: lugar, Lahti, nambu, etc.
+Damian Grouse no worries
My first thought as well is that it looked very similar. If I wasn't familiar with the luger action I probably would have assumed the same thing. Rather interesting design though
Do you actually fire any of these firearms?
+Derek Ramirez He often does. It's up to the owner of the firearm. Some don't allow any disassembly. Some he doesn't want to disassemble for fear of damaging a rare and valuable gun. Some guns are not safe to shoot. Some just aren't worth the risk of firing for possibly damaging them. Some they cannot procure an ammunition for because it is very scare, rare and expensive ammunition.
This is primarily a learning experience and history lesson. Not a "shooting guns channel". So don't expect to see lots of shooting in every video. This is a cool and interesting guns channel.
is this different than .38 special?
+Jacob Westphal Yes, it is shorter.
cool ian thanks!
The "Special" is basically the extended high power version of .38 S&W. Then there's the .357 S&W Magnum. This is the mother cartridge of .38 Special. (No longer produced, so you'd have to hand-load cut down brass. If you wanted to fire a gun this old, and unique. Which I wouldn't recommend.)
Neat :)
Oh cool, you found one that's NOT burned out this time, lol.
No CNC hardly any close tolerant tools, today none one as evented anything New!Every gun maker todayfollows things done by many many decades before!!
Possibly .38 ACP? To test, take it apart, and see if a .38 Super will fit the chamber. If it does, FOR GODS SAKE, DON'T FIRE IT WITH MODERN AMMO! Catastrophic failure is the result, possibly on the first shot.
The 32 S&W Reifgraber had an option for ACP, but you had to switch the barrel & magazine.
Carry gun